Rohr, Mark | Investigation testimony

Transcript of the Testimony of Mark Rohr

Date: November 5, 2013Volume: I

Case: In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

Printed On: November 13, 2013

Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.Phone: 417-358-4078

Fax: 417-451-1114Email:[email protected]

Internet:

Mark Rohr In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

417-358-4078Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.

Page 1

IN RE: JOPLIN CRITICAL INVESTIGATION

SWORN STATEMENT OF

MARK ROHR

Taken on Tuesday, November 5, 2013, from 1:52 p.m. to 3:10

p.m., at the law offices of Juddson H. McPherson, LLC, 626

S. Byers, in the City of Joplin, County of Jasper, State of

Missouri, before

SHARON K. ROGERS, C.C.R.650,

a Certified Court Reporter and a Notary Public within and

for the County of Jasper, and State of Missouri.



Page 2

APPEARANCES

MR. THOMAS E. LORAINE

Loraine & Associates, LLC

4075 Osage Beach Pkwy., Suite 300

Osage Beach, MO 65065

[email protected]



Page 3

S T I P U L A T I O N

IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED that this Sworn

Statement may be taken by steno-mask type recording by

SHARON K. ROGERS, a Certified Court Reporter, and

afterwards reduced into typewriting.

It is further stipulated that the signature of the

witness is hereby waived, and that said Sworn Statement of

said witness shall be of the same force and effect as

though said witness had read and signed Sworn Statement.



Page 4

I N D E X

Page/Line

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE . . . 5-4

E X H I B I T S

Exhibit #A. . . . . . . . 5-9

Advice of Rights

Exhibit #12 . . . . . . . 7-10

Memo

Note: Exhibits in separate binder

(sic) - typed as spoken

(ph.) - phonetic



Page 5

1 MARK ROHR

2 Having been first duly sworn and examined,

3 testified as follows:

4 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE:

5 Q. Sir, for the record we briefly talked outside

6 earlier and I introduced myself and you

7 introduced yourself and we talked a little

8 bit about what we're doing here. I'm going

9 to give you what is Exhibit #A, it's called

10 an Advice of Rights. Basically it's part of

11 the Garrity investigation and it reads as

12 follows: "Advice of Rights. I wish to

13 advise you that you are being questioned as

14 part of an official investigation by the City

15 of Joplin. You will be asked questions

16 related and specifically directed to the

17 performance of your official duties of

18 fitness for office. You are entitled to all

19 the rights and privileges guaranteed by the

20 laws of the Constitution of the State and the

21 Constitution of the United States, including

22 the right not to be compelled to incriminate

23 yourself. I further wish to advise you that

24 if you refuse to testify or to answer

25 questions relating to the performance of your



Page 6

1 official duties, you will be subject to 2 departmental charges, which could result in

3 your dismissal from your official duties. If

4 you do answer, these questions may be used

5 against you in relation to subsequent

6 departmental charges, but not in any

7 subsequent criminal proceedings. I have read

8 and fully understand the Advice of Rights as

9 it appears above. This information has also

10 been read to me prior to answering any

11 questions." Did you understand what I just 12 said?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you understand vaguely what the Garrity

15 matters are about?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You are City Manager?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you have any legal training?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Having said that, sir, I would like you to

22 print your name and then sign it, date it,

23 and we can proceed.

24 A. (Witness complies)

25 Q. Print it and sign it.



Page 7

1 A. (Witness complies)

2 Q. All right. Sir, have you complied with my

3 request?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. Prior to coming in here today,

6 sir, you handed me a one page document. Is

7 that true?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I'm going to have that marked as Exhibit

10 Number #12. Is this the document that you

11 handed me?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. All right. Sir, would you explain what this

14 particular document is?

15 A. It's a copy of a memo or email that I got

16 from the Building Maintenance Supervisor, and

17 I had asked him who had the keys that could

18 access my office and that he would be the one

19 that would be in a centralized position to be

20 able to know who all had keys, and he

21 provided that list to me and I thought it

22 might be helpful to you. And that's in

23 reference to the post-it note, the

24 disappearing post-it note situation.

25 Q. Yes, so just to recant a little bit or just



Page 8

1 to further explain that, we have eight people

2 that have been listed on here as people that

3 could have access to your desk?

4 A. He mentions I think narratively three others

5 down below the list.

6 Q. Hertzberg, Schaller, and Tim Nyander. Now

7 these are people that generally I see

8 maintenance, custodian, custodian, custodian.

9 What is an IS?

10 A. Information Systems. I.T.

11 Q. Oh, the same thing would be true with Morris

12 and Kent?

13 A. Yeah, both of those guys are I.T. or IS?

14 Q. Building Knox Box?

15 A. That's the Fire Department access in case

16 there's a fire. There's kind of a master

17 box.

18 Q. But that would be not be to your office?

19 A. I believe what he's trying to say there is

20 that there will be a copy of that in that

21 Knox box.

22 Q. That's kind of disconcerting.

23 A. Yeah, there's more people on that list than I

24 thought. There was a mystery and there didn't

25 appear to be anyone force their way into the



Page 9

1 office so that leads me to believe that

2 someone used the key.

3 Q. David Hertzberg, who is he?

4 A. He was the Public Works Director. He was

5 demoted recently, I should say reassigned, he

6 was reassigned to another position and he's

7 working on CBG related activities for the

8 City in response to the tornado.

9 Q. What is CBG?

10 A. CBG, Community Development Block Grand.

11 Q. Is he an employee of yours?

12 A. Yes, he's still employed.

13 Q. What about Jack Schaller?

14 A. He resigned recently. He is no longer

15 employed.

16 Q. Who is he?

17 A. He was the Assistant Public Works Director.

18 Q. Under Hertzberg?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. And who is Tim Nyander?

21 A. He was a parallel position or comparable

22 position with Jack underneath David. He

23 retired from the City I think last November

24 and works someplace in northern Arkansas now.

25 Q. Underneath David Hertzberg?



Page 10

1 A. Hertzberg.

2 Q. This list of people would be germane inasmuch

3 as you have a claim that somebody took a

4 certain note off of your desk. Was it off

5 your desk or in a secure location?

6 A. I believe it was on the credenza behind my

7 desk. I have a window behind my desk and

8 there's a table there that has my computer,

9 has some books on one side, then it has some

10 post-it notes and business cards on a stack,

11 but it's located right behind my desk so not

12 necessarily on my desk but right behind it.

13 Q. Sir, I'm going to hand you what's been marked

14 Exhibit #1, today's date, and see if you can

15 identify what that is? It's a copy

16 obviously.

17 A. It looks like a note. It could have been the

18 post-it note.

19 Q. We're making reference when you say the

20 post-it note, this information on Exhibit #12

21 here is people that you think had possible

22 access to your what I would call private or

23 secure area, and would this be a copy of the

24 note that --

25 A. All I know.



Page 11

1 Q. Let me finish my question.

2 A. Sure.

3 Q. Would this be a copy of the note that has

4 allegedly disappeared from your office?

5 A. Could very well be. And what I mean by that

6 is I've not seen the note. Mr. Scearce made

7 a reference to a note at a press conference

8 that he held.

9 Q. You have not seen this note before?

10 A. No, that's not what I'm saying. I don't know

11 if this is the note that he was referring to

12 in the press conference. I'm assuming since

13 it's in the context that you're asking me

14 that it is, but I don't know that for sure.

15 The fact that he mentioned it, there was a

16 phone number, her phone number on it.

17 Q. Who is her?

18 A. Carol Stark is the Editor of the paper.

19 Q. Is this in your handwriting?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Everything on here is in your handwriting?

22 A. It appears so, yes.

23 Q. So I understand what you're saying. You

24 don't know if this is the note, but this

25 looks like your handwriting and it looks like



Page 12

1 a note that contains all the necessary

2 ingredients. Would you agree with that?

3 A. Yes, I'm assuming this is the note he's

4 referring to. This is in my handwriting,

5 this looks like the post-it note that I had

6 on my credenza behind my desk. I don't know

7 if this is the note he was referring to in

8 the press conference.

9 Q. Okay. Let me share this with you. I have

10 been given this copy subject to my 11 questioning and investigations from your City

12 Attorney. This is a copy of the note that he

13 had so I assume - I don't know if that's the

14 same. I haven't talked with Mr. Scearce or

15 Mr. Woolston or any of those people yet, but

16 this is what I have been provided so I'm

17 assuming since it's in your handwriting that

18 this is a note that came from you. Is that a

19 safe assumption?

20 A. I think that I wrote this and this was on my

21 desk or my credenza at some point. How the

22 City Attorney got it I don't know.

23 Q. Let me say this. This is what I've been

24 provided. And I'm going to ask you to

25 translate this for me. I mean I think I can



Page 13

1 read it. I obviously see the name Stark, but

2 I want to go on the first line and we can do

3 this simply, I guess. I'm going to mark

4 numbers on each line. Sir, I see at least

5 what I have number is 8 lines. Would you

6 look at that and have I marked 8 lines and

7 does it make sense? Can you go line by line

8 and tell me what it says?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What does line 1 say?

11 A. "Address was".


13 A. "Carol Stark extremely" or I guess

14 "extremely" could be considered line 3. It's

15 kind of straddling them.

16 Q. "Address was", what does that have reference

17 to?

18 A. I'm not sure. I don't recall specifically

19 what it was referencing. Carol Stark is the

20 Publisher of the paper.

21 Q. Has she talked with you specifically any

22 time?

23 A. Yes, she asked me questions.

24 Q. About this?

25 A. With respect to Mr. Scearce and Mr. Scearce



Page 14

1 asking for a meeting in my office in March

2 with the City Attorney and the Police Chief.

3 I think she and I talked on more than one

4 occasion.

5 Q. Her name is referenced on line 2?

6 A. Carol Stark, yes.

7 Q. And that's in your handwriting. Line 3 looks

8 like that word that you said is "extremely"?

9 A. "Extremely".

10 Q. Line 4, what does that say?

11 A. "8/12/13".

12 Q. And what is that in reference to?

13 A. It's a date, I'm assuming.

14 Q. What does that say back there?

15 A. "Helpful".

16 Q. Is that all it says? Line 5, what does that

17 say?

18 A. "Contributing to a continual criminal

19 enterprise".

20 Q. What is that in reference to?

21 A. I believe in the past, I don't know if that

22 came up during a conversation with her, but

23 that would have been the alleged charge that

24 would have been attributed to Mr. Scearce's

25 behavior.



Page 15

1 Q. And the charge would be this matter involving

2 Lovett bookmaking, I guess?

3 A. Yeah, I'm not sure if - there's two guys that

4 were involved in that that were charged whose

5 names were in the paper. Lyle and Lovett.

6 I'm not sure which one was the one that

7 rented space from Mr. Scearce. It may have

8 been Lovett, it may have been Lyle. I can't

9 remember specifically.

10 Q. The next line, number 6, what's that word?

11 A. "Lovett".

12 Q. And what's the last combination of words on

13 that line?

14 A. "Criminal enterprise".

15 Q. Line 7, what does that say?

16 A. "FBI request issues".


18 A. "Surrounding".

19 Q. Do you know what "surrounding" means?

20 A. I mean I think it's part of this observation,

21 but it may have been part of the conversation

22 that I had with her.

23 Q. So this might be some kind of notes that you

24 took with the conversation with Carol?

25 A. Yeah.



Page 16

1 Q. And that would be Stark?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I am particularly interested in the

4 "contributing to criminal activity". I mean

5 I think you would probably be interested in

6 that yourself. That's an interesting phrase.

7 A. Yes, it is. What I understand it's a legal

8 charge. I'm not expert.

9 Q. Do you know of the existence of an FBI

10 report? Have you seen it?

11 A. I've never seen it, no, sir.

12 Q. Does Carol Stark know of the existence of an

13 FBI report?

14 A. She knows of the existence. I don't know if

15 she's seen it. They made a public records

16 request. That was the gist of the

17 conversation was that they had a request in

18 for well over a year now for that file and

19 she was doing an article on Mr. Scearce and

20 this conversation surrounded that article and

21 the meeting that he held in my office in

22 March.

23 Q. And that meeting in March, there's a date on

24 here of 8/12/13. What's significant about

25 that?



Page 17

1 A. I would imagine that's probably on or about

2 the time that we had the phone conversation.

3 Q. With whom?

4 A. Carol.

5 Q. Carol and you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the meeting in March, was that March

8 before this audit?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What was significant about that meeting?

11 A. Mr. Scearce had called for that meeting with

12 the Police Chief and he asked for it through

13 the City Attorney so the four of us were

14 present in my office.

15 Q. So the Police Chief, yourself, the City

16 Attorney, and Mr. Scearce?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What was the nature of the meeting? Why did

19 Scearce want that meeting?

20 A. He was upset that the Police Chief had told

21 me about circumstances surrounding him based

22 on the FBI investigation.

23 Q. So what had the Police Chief told you?

24 A. He told me some of the issues surrounding Mr.

25 Scearce's involvement with that.



Page 18

1 Q. What were those issues?

2 A. I don't know that I can say that. I was told

3 that I can't.

4 Q. By whom?

5 A. The Police Chief.

6 Q. Well, I'm doing an official Garrity

7 investigation. Now would be a good time for

8 you to tell me what he said because I'll have

9 him here soon.

10 A. Am I allowed to say that if that runs afoul

11 of restrictions in the law? I've never seen

12 the file. All I know is that he was

13 apprising me --

14 Q. Let me explain something to you. What we're

15 doing I'm not doing a criminal investigation.

16 I'm doing a civil investigation of what the

17 City knows. The only way I can find out what

18 the City knows is talk to the City employees.

19 A. Sure.

20 Q. Then the City knows what the City employees

21 know. And one of the things that I want to

22 know about is what the Chief told you and

23 therefore you have a choice of not telling me

24 or choosing to tell me, you have the choice

25 of telling me or you can stay mute.



Page 19

1 A. I'm not being contentious.

2 Q. No, I know that. I'm explaining.

3 A. I don't want to violate a law in telling you

4 to do so because then that puts me in the

5 trip bag. I have no problems at all and

6 would have liked to early on told everything

7 that I know and I was told that I couldn't do

8 it until the file itself was released and

9 then me talking about it would be mute

10 because it would be all in the file.

11 Q. Well, one of the things I'm going to tell you

12 today is when you leave this room you're not

13 to talk about what we talked about, okay?

14 A. Okay.

15 Q. And I'm going to tell that to everybody that

16 comes through the door.

17 A. And I don't have any problems with that.

18 Q. But I am going to tell you that I'm going to

19 talk with the Police Chief and we're going to

20 find out why he thinks I can't know about

21 that. And one of the things that I'll be

22 doing is making a recommendation based on

23 what recommendations I can do, I can discover

24 facts, I can have people refuse to tell me

25 those facts and they then can be disciplined



Page 20

1 by whatever the body is, or they can tell me

2 stuff and the stuff that they tell me if it's

3 something they shouldn't be doing they can

4 get fired. It's not a good scenario.

5 A. I would love to tell you, but I just don't 6 want to get myself in trouble by doing so.

7 Q. Well, you're going to get in trouble by not

8 doing so because I need to investigate this.

9 A. I'd like to have some professional counsel

10 before I do so. And I'm a little troubled by

11 to me the issue is how did the note get

12 removed, not what's in the note.

13 Q. Well, we're going to look into that. I'm

14 going to look into that. One of the things

15 I've been asked to do is find out both of

16 these councilmen's involvement in certain

17 issues. You know as well as I do what I'm

18 supposed to be doing here, the City Council

19 gave me three matters to talk about, and I

20 don't think there's any secret about it. It

21 was in the newspaper before I even got here.

22 A. One of them was the nature of the

23 disappearance of the post-it note.

24 Q. Well, if you want me to be more specific,

25 "The conduct of the Mayor Pro Tem Scearce



Page 21

1 involving lease of a building to an

2 individual convicted of bookmaking.

3 Specifically it was the desire of the City

4 that Loraine request the file held by the

5 Federal Bureau of Investigation regarding

6 Scearce's conduct and provide a report of the

7 same to the Council members. Two, facts and

8 circumstances surrounding release of

9 information related to Mr. Scearce's conduct

10 including but not limited to the handwritten

11 note referenced by -"

12 A. Say that again. Could you slow down?

13 Q. "Facts and circumstances surrounding release

14 of information related to Mr. Scearce's

15 conduct including but not limited to the

16 handwritten note referenced by Mr. Scearce in

17 City Manager's Rohr's handwriting. Number 3,

18 the fact and circumstance in an ethical

19 consideration surrounding the involvement of

20 Council member Woolston with Charlie Kuehn,

21 Four State Homes and subsidiaries and related

22 entities, and the City's master developer

23 Wallace-Bajjali with respect to the purchase, 24 sale or leasing of real estate for current

25 and future developments."



Page 22

1 A. Who wrote that?

2 Q. This? I don't know. It was in the newspaper

3 and this is my contract.

4 A. That's a direct quote from the newspaper?

5 Q. It is. And it's also my contract.

6 A. I remember the discussion at the Council

7 meeting it was the nature of the

8 circumstances of the disappearance of the

9 post-it note.

10 Q. That's one of the things that I'm looking at

11 here that I just told you.12 A. Well, but I mean we're concentrating on

13 specifics on the post-it note which I think

14 is not the primary issue. The primary issue

15 is in my mind a crime was committed. It was

16 sitting on my credenza in my office and Mr.

17 Scearce ended up with it. Now how did that

18 happen?

19 Q. I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell

20 everybody how that happened at the end of

21 this investigation, but one of the things I

22 need to do is I need to have answers to the

23 questions. If everybody came in here and

24 said what you said I wouldn't be able to tell

25 anybody anything.



Page 23

1 A. I'm not trying to be pretentious, I just 2 don't want to commit a crime by telling you

3 what --

4 Q. Well, guess what, I just told you when we 5 read this thing that you signed that you

6 can't be committing a crime if you reported

7 the information. Do you want to read this

8 again, Exhibit #A? Read it again.

9 A. (Witness complies) So you're asking me to

10 tell you specifics of what the Police Chief

11 told me?

12 Q. I'm asking you to tell me everything the

13 Police Chief told you. And will you comply

14 with my request?

15 A. And I'm not subject to any criminal charges?16 Q. That's what it says.

17 A. Okay. Then I guess I'll tell you everything

18 I can tell you.

19 Q. I think you should, but I'm not your lawyer.

20 Okay, let's talk about the question what did

21 the Police Chief tell you about Mr. Scearce?

22 A. He told me that he had involvement, business

23 involvement with an illegal bookmaking

24 operation, and that he rented his space in

25 the early 90's I believe for a four year time



Page 24

1 period for an illegal bookmaking operation.

2 Q. Mr. Lovett?

3 A. It was either Lyle or Lovett.

4 Q. Okay. What else did he tell you?

5 A. That Mr. Scearce facilitated expansion of the

6 bookmaking operation because I guess it was

7 doing well and needed other amenities and

8 things to enable it to operate in the growing

9 manner that was apparently taking place.

10 Q. Okay. What else?

11 A. And that he told me that he wanted me to know

12 and he thought the Mayor should know in light

13 of any potential charges that could be

14 brought against Mr. Scearce and against the

15 City in an unfavorable light.

16 Q. And these are all things that the Police

17 Chief himself told you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What's the Police Chief's name?

20 A. Lane Roberts.

21 Q. I'll be talking to him soon. What else did

22 he tell you?

23 A. That Mr. Scearce admitted to those facts to

24 the investigators thinking that the statute

25 of limitations had expired.



Page 25

1 Q. You mean the federal investigators?

2 A. I believe it was the FBI and there were some

3 local people that were assisting in it. I

4 don't know who they are.

5 Q. You don't know anything --

6 A. I know one guy's name was Altic.

7 Q. Who?

8 A. Altic, James Altic.

9 Q. What does James Altic do? How do you spell

10 that name?

11 A. I think it's A-L-T-I-C, or T-E-C.

12 Q. What does he do?

13 A. He used to work for us and was assisting the

14 FBI investigation. He has since retired.

15 Q. City policeman?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. Is he still available?

18 A. I think so. I think he's the Chief at one of

19 the smaller cities.

20 Q. Would Lane Roberts know where he is?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Let me have his name again so I can get that

23 name down. Do you want to spell that again

24 for me?

25 A. I believe it's A-L-T-I-C or T-E-C, one of the



Page 26

1 two.

2 Q. And he was an investigator for the City of

3 Joplin?

4 A. He was an officer. I'm not exactly sure what

5 capacity. He was helping in the

6 investigation. He may have been an

7 investigator. I'm not real sure.

8 Q. Okay. Is there anything else that you can

9 remember that the Police Chief told you

10 concerning the investigation of Mr. Scearce

11 by the FBI?

12 A. Nothing that I can recall at this point.

13 Q. Did the Police Chief tell you what his source

14 of his information was?

15 A. No, I don't remember. He may have. I assume

16 it was directly from the investigation.

17 Q. But you don't recall as you sit here now?

18 A. He did mention that he had asked the FBI for

19 permission to convey the limited

20 circumstances of the investigation to me and

21 the Mayor.

22 Q. Who was his contact with the FBI?

23 A. He may have mentioned it, but I don't

24 remember. I know they change cases quite a

25 bit.



Page 27

1 Q. They do. In this article, "Joplin Mayor Pro

2 Tem Accuses City Manager of Bully Tactics.

3 City Manager Releases Response". This is the

4 dispute between you and Scearce?

5 A. He called a press conference I believe

6 because he knew the article was going to

7 appear in the paper on Sunday and he called a

8 press conference that Friday and directed

9 charges at me, and once I found out what he

10 said I responded.

11 Q. What was your response?

12 A. I don't remember exactly what I said, but I

13 basically refuted his allegations, that I

14 wasn't the one behind the article. The Globe

15 had been looking into this for in excess of a

16 year and that I had conversations with them,

17 but I didn't prompt the article, that they'd

18 been working on it for quite some time and

19 that she asked me about it and I responded to

20 her questions and we talked about it.

21 Q. This would have been Carol?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you tell her what you told me?

24 A. I didn't tell her anything about the FBI

25 restrictions.



Page 28

1 Q. You just said that you had some information 2 that involved him?

3 A. Her main thrust was the March meeting because

4 it had the appearance of Mr. Scearce trying

5 to cover up and admonish the Police Chief for

6 doing what he did through me.

7 Q. Here is a quote, "He has stated to many that

8 he wants to be Mayor," making reference to

9 Mr. Scearce.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. "He will not be able to do so if I tell all

12 that I know regarding the circumstances." I

13 assume that's your quote?

14 A. Uh-huh.

15 Q. "Additionally having a strong personality

16 sitting in the City Manager's chair would

17 prevent him from imposing his version of the

18 good ole boy network system government that

19 has held Joplin back in the past." If the

20 claim holds up when the article appeared in

21 the local paper on Sunday and even more so

22 when the FBI's records are it says, "In a

23 statement Mr. Scearce claims to be a fair and

24 honest person. Citizens of Joplin will have

25 an opportunity to decide if that claim holds



Page 29

1 up when the article appears in a local

2 newspaper on Sunday or even more so when the

3 FBI records are released."

4 A. Exactly.

5 Q. This is an article I'm reading in reference,

6 it's called Exhibit #2 in this investigation,

7 but it's something that you're aware of?

8 You're aware of this article?

9 A. I will say that's an accurate depiction of my

10 comments in response to this press

11 conference.

12 Q. So what is it that you believe that if he

13 runs for Mayor --

14 A. He doesn't run. He's appointed.

15 Q. And who is he appointed by, the other --

16 A. Council members.

17 Q. -- Council members. So if he's appointed to

18 Mayor you believe that you have information

19 that will discredit him to the extent that --

20 A. I think it's out. Mr. Scearce admitted, he

21 calls it clarifying, but admitted to the

22 paper a week ago Friday, he didn't use the

23 word lie, but that's what everyone thinks,

24 that he did know about the gambling operation

25 when he was on record to the Globe and the



Page 30

1 Council saying he didn't.

2 Q. He claims not to have known at the time that

3 he leased to the guy?

4 A. Yeah, he claims not to have known at all.

5 Q. Ever?

6 A. He's splitting hairs. He's trying to create

7 a nuance, a distinction. When did he find

8 out, I don't know, but he was on record

9 saying he had no idea that there was a

10 gambling operation there. And then a week

11 ago Friday I was out of town, apparently

12 towards the end of the day the Globe put out

13 an article saying Mr. Scearce printed a

14 clarification where he acknowledged he knew

15 there was a gambling operation in there.

16 Q. At some point?

17 A. That he had been on record before on one

18 occasion saying that he was not aware there

19 was a gambling operation.

20 Q. Do you have a copy of that article that

21 you're making reference to that he made the

22 admission?

23 A. Sure.

24 Q. I'm going to give you a sheet of paper here.

25 I'll take that back. Maybe if you will



Page 31

1 follow-up giving me --

2 A. I'd be glad to do that, but it's also

3 available at the Globe.

4 Q. Well, you know, anything that will help me.

5 I've got a couple of dozen people to talk to.

6 A. Yeah, I'm sure knowing the players as I do

7 that you're getting a sculpted scenario.

8 Q. Well, I'd hope that we can get information

9 from you that will --

10 A. Well, not just me. There's other people.11 Q. When you say knowing the people who are you

12 making reference to?

13 A. The Globe asked the following Sunday in I

14 think the letters to the editor for his

15 resignation for betraying the public trust

16 for lying about that.

17 Q. Has Carol Stark talked with you recently in

18 the last couple of days?

19 A. No.

20 Q. I asked Carol Stark to talk to me. She

21 wouldn't do it. Why is that?

22 A. I have no idea.

23 Q. I think if she's got some information that

24 would help me on this case that she'd be

25 happy to do that. I would think that. I



Page 32

1 mean she can say some of my sources are

2 private or whatever, but in any case she

3 wouldn't talk to me and I'm kind of troubled

4 by that. Do you know her well?

5 A. I mean I know her to see her on the street

6 and chitchat with her, but it's not like we

7 --

8 Q. No social?

9 A. No, never.

10 Q. Are you married?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What is the relationship between Mr. Woolston

13 and you?

14 A. He was Mayor during the storm and I was

15 obviously City Manager. I respect him. I

16 think he's a very honest man, a very

17 straightforward man, a very good Council

18 member. He's a very good man. Other than

19 that --

20 Q. No social?

21 A. No social. I mean if we're at a downtown

22 event and he's there we may sit together for

23 awhile. It's not like we make plans to go

24 out drinking together or anything like that.

25 Q. Has the Police Chief told you that he has



Page 33

1 some kind of power to keep information from

2 the rest of the board or from the Council or

3 from you or from the City Attorney or

4 something? Does he claim to have some kind

5 of --

6 A. He's never said that or implied that. I

7 personally thought he was pretty judicious in 8 how he went about releasing information. He

9 just thought the City would be in a very 10 embarrassing situation should charges be

11 brought if the two top officials of the City

12 weren't aware of anything that was going on

13 with respect to Mr. Scearce, and this has

14 been going on for years. This has been going

15 on for five years.

16 Q. Are any of those mayors aware of these

17 allegations?

18 A. I mean you'd have to ask them. I don't

19 remember the exact conversation, but they

20 knew that there was an issue and that Mr.

21 Scearce was somehow involved with the

22 investigation.

23 Q. Who are the mayors you're making reference

24 to?

25 A. Gary Shaw, Mike Woolston, and the current



Page 34

1 one, Mayor Kean, Colbert-Kean.

2 Q. Has your Police Chief initiated his own

3 investigation on Scearce?

4 A. No. Maybe it's just your nature as an 5 investigator you have to do that, but Lane

6 Roberts is a very honorable man and in my

7 estimation there isn't any fault to be laid

8 in his lap. He was doing what he thought he

9 needed to do to convey information to us so

10 that in the event that charges were brought

11 or something embarrassing would happen with

12 respect to Mr. Scearce that we weren't caught

13 flat-footed.

14 Q. Why wouldn't Chief Roberts be interested in

15 investigating a matter like that?

16 A. Because this was part of an overall federal

17 investigation that encompassed a lot of

18 different things and a lot of different

19 people, not just Mr. Scearce. Mr. Scearce 20 was a part of it. I couldn't characterize

21 the percentage of it, but this wasn't about

22 investigating Mr. Scearce, it was a broad

23 investigation and this developed as a result

24 of it and he would have to get into the

25 specifics because this wasn't just about Mr.



Page 35

1 Scearce.

2 Q. Mr. Woolston was involved in a company called

3 Pro 100?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. What was his involvement in that Pro 100?

6 A. He was just a salesman my understanding.7 Q. And the broker in that was Charlie Kuehn?

8 A. No, Mr. Kuehn is not a principle in Pro 100.

9 He's with the company I think is called Four

10 State Homes.

11 Q. Who were the principles in Pro 100?

12 A. Nick Kanakis, there's Dee Kassab, there's

13 another guy, I don't remember his name, an

14 older gentleman. There used to be four.

15 Doris Carlin is the fourth, but she's

16 separated. I believe there's just three now, 17 but I don't have any intimate knowledge of

18 Pro 100 and how they operate.

19 Q. Go through those names again for me.

20 A. Dee Kassab.

21 Q. You might help me a little with the spelling.

22 A. D-E-E K-A-S-S-A-B. Nick Kanakis, N-I-C-K

23 K-A-N-A-K-I-S. There was another gentleman,

24 I can see his face, probably in his 60's, but

25 I don't remember what his name is.



Page 36

1 Q. Did Pro 100 work on the land acquisition for

2 the Land Bank?

3 A. Not to my knowledge.

4 Q. Who does Charlie Kuehn work for?

5 A. I think he works for himself. He's got his

6 own business.

7 Q. That's that Four State Homes?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. And has he worked for your Land Bank?

10 A. I don't think he was working for them. He

11 had acquired property I would assume for his

12 own purposes in advance of that and at a

13 certain point he developed a relationship

14 with Wallace-Bajjali, and what the nature of 15 that relationship is I'm not sure. I'm not

16 privy to that.

17 Q. How did this buying this real estate, how did

18 it all come about? What do you know about

19 that?

20 A. The City hired a master developer,

21 Wallace-Bajjali, out of Texas and the purpose 22 was to work on different projects some of 23 which had been developed and presented in the

24 past within the City, some of them were new

25 of their creation that they presented a list



Page 37

1 to Council. And any time following a natural

2 disaster when you try to do bigger type

3 projects it's a real challenge to aggregate 4 the property necessary so the City used the

5 JRC, the Joplin Redevelopment Corporation, as

6 the means to acquire that property, and that

7 property in turn would be sold to the master

8 developer so the projects can proceed. So I 9 think Mr. Kuehn had bought some of the

10 property early on and at some point formed

11 some kind of relationship with

12 Wallace-Bajjali so that the property that was 13 needed in the areas that he had already

14 acquired could be used for some of the bigger

15 projects.16 Q. Did Charlie Kuehn make a profit on that?

17 A. I don't know what the circumstances are, sir.

18 Q. How did Charlie Kuehn get connected with

19 Wallace-Bajjali?20 A. I think they just met organically. I'm not 21 sure who facilitated that and how that

22 actually happened. You'd be surprised in a

23 town the size of Joplin how many connections

24 are made just on the street so I don't know 25 how that happened.



Page 38

1 Q. Do you know if this Lovett is around? I

2 understand he actually did some hard time.

3 A. I don't know, there were three bookies that

4 were involved. I don't know any of them

5 personally, I don't believe I've ever met any

6 of them. There's one that's in poor health

7 in Las Vegas and there's two that are still

8 local, Lyle, one of them is named Lyle, one

9 of them is Lovett, and then there's a third

10 one.

11 Q. That's the guy in Vegas?

12 A. I think it probably is, but I don't know that

13 for sure.

14 Q. You've never met or talked with any of them?

15 A. They could have been at one of those

16 gatherings when I first got here, it could

17 have been in a Kiwanis club, I may have done

18 that, but I wouldn't recognize them if they

19 ran me over in a car.

20 Q. Who contacted Wallace-Bajjali from the City?21 A. Wallace-Bajjali was having their meeting at a 22 convention type setting with Chris Crossland

23 who is one of the sons of a noteworthy

24 construction company when the tornado hit and

25 they were off site somewhere and Chris had to



Page 39

1 excuse himself because he got a call because

2 his mom's home was impacted and that's how

3 they found out about Joplin. Then from there

4 it went to the Chamber of Commerce and Rob

5 O'Brian, and from there it went to the City.

6 Q. Rob?

7 A. O'Brian, who is the President of the Chamber.

8 Q. The City and the Chamber have some kind of a

9 relationship?

10 A. The Chamber does the economic development

11 activities for the City. They contract with

12 them.

13 Q. You actually pay them money to do that?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. When you say Bajjali contacted the City who 16 did they contact?

17 A. Wallace-Bajjali, the introduction with 18 Wallace-Bajjali was made through the Chamber 19 to the City.

20 Q. And who at the Chamber?

21 A. Mr. O'Brian.

22 Q. And what's his first name?

23 A. Rob.

24 Q. How do you know Rob?

25 A. I work with him every week.



Page 40

1 Q. Daily?

2 A. Not daily.

3 Q. And he was officially President of the

4 Chamber at that time?

5 A. He is. He's the professional. He's not the

6 Chamber - they've got a Chairman of the

7 Board, but his title --

8 Q. Like Executive Director or something?

9 A. Yes, he's my equivalent.

10 Q. So you guys work fairly closely?

11 A. Yeah, probably once a week, maybe once every

12 two weeks.

13 Q. Are you social friends with him?

14 A. No, we've never done anything socially.

15 Q. So who brought the Wallace-Bajjali company to 16 the attention of the board? Would it be you

17 or was it --

18 A. Of the board being the City Council?

19 Q. Yes, the City Council.

20 A. I guess probably me, yeah.

21 Q. Was Rob participating in that?

22 A. Yeah, the first meeting that I remember was

23 they were in town and over at the Chamber and

24 Rob had invited me over and that's where I

25 met him and that's where they sold their



Page 41

1 wares. That's where they said here's what we

2 do, here's what we can do. We went through a

3 competitive process eventually for our FPs

4 and I think there were six firms that

5 submitted and Council through that process

6 chose Wallace-Bajjali.7 Q. Who were the other firms?

8 A. I don't remember.

9 Q. Is there a record of that?

10 A. Yeah, I'm sure.

11 Q. Do you know what rose Benji Rosenberg, Dr. 12 Benji Rosenberg, he's on the Council, what 13 role did he have in this development program?

14 A. He's the Council liaison, which means he

15 attends the meetings but doesn't cast a vote.

16 He's kind of an ex officio member.

17 Q. So he would actually shovel diplomacy back

18 and forth between the two entities?

19 A. Yeah, I guess that's the theory.

20 Q. How long has he been doing that?

21 A. Oh, I think from the get go. I mean I don't

22 know when he was appointed to do that, but I

23 think all throughout the whole

24 Wallace-Bajjali experience, the 25 Wallace-Bajjali/City experience I believe he



Page 42

1 was the liaison.

2 Q. He seems to have some kind of complaint about

3 Mr. Woolston. Are you aware of any of that?

4 A. Yeah, I mean that was after Mr. Woolston

5 initiated discussion related to Mr. Scearce a

6 meeting or two later Dr. Rosenberg brought up

7 concerns that he had related to Mr.

8 Woolston's experience with Wallace-Bajjali 9 and various property sales.

10 Q. So am I getting the impression someway that -

11 you know, I don't know any of these people.

12 I'm getting the impression that Rosenberg is

13 not a fan of Woolston then?

14 A. I say that's probably safe to assume.

15 Q. That's your impression?

16 A. Dr. Rosenberg is good friends as he stated in

17 the paper with Mr. Scearce.

18 Q. Do you get along okay with Rosenberg?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Let me back up on that question. I don't

21 want to put you in a bad spot. Let me ask

22 you this question. If I talk with Rosenberg

23 he's not going to be critical of too much of

24 what Scearce has allegedly done?

25 A. I'm assuming on my part that he wouldn't be.



Page 43

1 I don't know, you'd have to ask him.

2 Q. Just trying to get a feel for the players.

3 And I will talk to him.

4 A. Sure.

5 Q. What about Golden. He's on the board?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Would he be in a similar situation?

8 A. He's friends with Benji and Mr. Scearce. I 9 believe he and Dr. Rosenberg went to school

10 all the way through together. They're the

11 same age.

12 Q. How many people do you have on your City

13 Council?

14 A. Nine.

15 Q. I've got four identified there. I've got

16 Woolston, Golden, Rosenberg, and Scearce.

17 Where are the rest of them? Who are the

18 other five?

19 A. Morris Glaze, Trisha Raney, Mike Seibert,

20 Gary Shaw, and Mayor Kean.

21 Q. I'm sorry, the second one was?

22 A. Trisha Raney.

23 Q. Let's go down to Morris Glaze. What's your

24 perception of where does Morris Glaze fall on

25 this he/she did it deal? What's your



Page 44

1 impression? That's all I'm asking.

2 A. My impression would be that he would think

3 Mr. Scearce has some issues.

4 Q. So he would be a Woolston guy, is that right?

5 A. If I were venturing a guess I'd say yes.

6 Q. What about Raney?

7 A. She seems to be good friends with the Mayor.

8 I've never asked her her opinion on it. If

9 I'd venture a guess I'd say she'd probably be

10 sympathetic to Mr. Scearce.

11 Q. That's the present Mayor?

12 A. Yeah.

13 Q. Where would she fall?

14 A. Well, maybe I'd better back up. When the

15 current Mayor was picked it was 5 to 4 and it

16 was the Mayor, Trisha Raney, Scearce,

17 Rosenberg, and Golden that voted for her, so

18 if that tells you anything.

19 Q. What's the Mayor's name?

20 A. Mayor Colbert-Kean. But I mean you'd have to

21 ask her what her opinion is on the subject.22 Q. We will. I'm not going to put you out there

23 all by yourself, I'm going to be talking to

24 all these people. But I mean you're part of

25 the reason why I'm here.



Page 45

1 A. Sure.

2 Q. So I start with you.

3 A. Right. I don't have anything to hide, I just 4 don't want to make them mad at me. They

5 deserve to be able to respond to their own

6 questions.

7 Q. And they will.

8 A. Sure.

9 Q. So where is Seibert at?

10 A. I think Seibert would probably be sympathetic

11 to Mr. Woolston.

12 Q. And Shaw?

13 A. I think he'd probably be sympathetic with Mr.

14 Woolston, too.

15 Q. Seems like we have two camps?

16 A. Well, there's a lot of talk in town about a

17 divided Council so I think that's not a

18 stretch of the imagination, but that's where

19 we're at.

20 Q. Gary Shaw is a former Mayor?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Why is he no longer the Mayor?

23 A. Every two years in April after the April

24 elections when they seat a new Council they

25 collectively vote as a group on who they want



Page 46

1 to be Mayor and they pick that person. Gary

2 was the Mayor probably four or five years

3 ago, then it was Woolston, now it's Mayor

4 Colbert-Kean and they go through the

5 selection process. And it's usually a pretty

6 big deal.

7 Q. How do you survive under that condition?

8 A. Well, I've made it this far. I don't know.

9 I'm not sure. We try to do our best.

10 Q. How many contracts do you think we've bought?

11 How many pieces of property?

12 A. Property? I'd say 50 or so.

13 Q. Have you, yourself, done any review of these

14 properties whether Woolston --

15 A. Very cursory.

16 Q. Let me finish that question. Whether

17 Woolston was in any way out of line in

18 involvement in any of these property

19 acquisitions?

20 A. Have I personally investigated?

21 Q. Have you looked at any of the 50 transactions

22 to see if there was high prices paid or

23 anything?

24 A. No, I haven't looked at it that closely. I

25 mean there's just too much going on, too many



Page 47

1 things going on. I've got to recover from

2 the EF-5 tornado and everything involved with

3 that, work with the master developer, and run

4 the City at the same time and deal with

5 everything else I have to deal with so I've

6 looked at the agenda items as they've come

7 up, I've not plunged into it to any great

8 detail.

9 Q. Who would? I mean somebody has got to be

10 auditing these things.

11 A. I would imagine the City Attorney. He's the

12 legal advisor for all the JRC operations. To

13 what degree I don't know, you'd have to ask

14 him, but I would imagine he would look at

15 them more closely than anyone.

16 Q. Do you have any financial people involved in

17 this?

18 A. Yes, our Finance Director is part of the

19 process, too.

20 Q. Who is that?

21 A. Leslie Haase, H-A-A-S-E.

22 Q. And what is Leslie Haase's background?

23 A. She's a CPA.

24 Q. Do you know if she has done any review work?

25 Does she work for you?



Page 48

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Has she done any review work on these

3 contract prices or anything?

4 A. Well, what happens is Wallace-Bajjali will 5 present them to the City and the City will

6 put them on the JRC agenda. How closely they

7 look at them I don't know. You'd have to ask

8 them specifically.

9 Q. Who is they?

10 A. Leslie and Brian, the Finance Director and

11 City Attorney.

12 Q. As far as the set up on how all this got

13 going what the City Attorney's input into

14 that?

15 A. In terms of?

16 Q. Setting up the 353.

17 A. I think he's one of the primary people in the

18 whole process.

19 Q. I have gleaned from some sources in the City

20 that there's been complaints concerning the

21 City Attorney's involvement in some of the

22 early goings of the 353 Land Bank acquisition

23 period. Are you familiar with any of those

24 complaints?

25 A. Complaints about what he was doing?



Page 49

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. Not specifically. I know there's complaints

3 about him in general, but not about the early

4 part of the process anymore than the latter

5 part of the process.

6 Q. Did any Council members tell you that he

7 should have been involved and wasn't involved

8 in the early processes of the land

9 acquisition? Have you heard those

10 complaints?

11 A. No, mainly the complaints are that he - the

12 complaints I've heard is that he tends to be

13 on the negative side as it relates to

14 Wallace-Bajjali.15 Q. Why would that be?

16 A. I don't know. I mean it's kind of a deep

17 seeded issue. I've worked with him for nine

18 years and I have my own theories, but that's

19 the nature I heard as it relates to the City

20 Attorney to the redevelopment process, or

21 that he is perhaps a little negative on the

22 things with Wallace-Bajjali.23 Q. Just Wallace-Bajjali or --24 A. Yeah, he can be that way in other areas, too,

25 but I mean that was the nature of your



Page 50

1 question.

2 Q. There has been some discussion concerning the

3 Police Department's relevance in the affairs

4 of City employees. What has been your

5 observation as to the Police Department

6 investigating City employees?

7 A. I don't know of any of those concerns.

8 Q. You have no knowledge of that?

9 A. No. In terms of business activities?

10 Q. Well, I mean investigating them, yes. Not

11 only business, just in general City 12 employees. Does the Police Department look

13 into City employees' concerns?

14 A. I guess every situation would be different.

15 Q. You don't know of any general complaints

16 about that?

17 A. No, I don't know of anything. I think we

18 have a very professional Police Department,

19 very ethical Police Department. I don't see

20 any problems along those lines. There was a

21 situation recently at the Street Department

22 where we thought there were some issues

23 involving free maintenance and taking

24 materials and they were asked to look into

25 it, and the first night they looked into it



Page 51

1 they caught a guy taking stuff home.

2 Q. Did that result in criminal --

3 A. It was just a misdemeanor. They just caught 4 him.

5 Q. Was there a discharge or any kind of --

6 A. Yeah, we cleaned the whole department out.

7 We recently reorganized the whole Public

8 Works Department because there were a number

9 of different problems in there, and that was

10 part of the problem.

11 Q. You mentioned an ex member, one of the guys

12 --

13 A. Mr. Hertzberg, yes.

14 Q. Is that some of the result?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was that your investigation or the Police

17 Department?

18 A. It was kind of a combination. There were a

19 couple of major issues. There were 20 suspicions of theft that proved to be true to

21 some level through maintenance. Secondly

22 there were problems in the Building

23 Department with collecting fees for code

24 enforcement and for building permits.

25 Q. And not being properly accounted for?



Page 52

1 A. Right. And we looked into it. We think it

2 primarily was a management issue and that

3 management issue has been cleared up with

4 some of the changes we made.

5 Q. Double accounting now or something on it?

6 A. Daily deposits, part of the problem was the

7 deposits weren't getting from the Public

8 Works Department on the fourth floor to the

9 Finance Department on the third floor in a

10 timely manner, and things were happening so

11 quickly because of the tornado that they were

12 piling up and it just got sloppy.13 Q. What's your personal background?

14 A. I've been City Manager, December 2nd will be

15 26 years since this is the fifth city I've

16 managed, and I've been in Joplin 9 years and

17 5 days.

18 Q. Where are the other cities that you managed?

19 A. Newton Falls, Ohio; Washington Courthouse,

20 Ohio; Ponca Gordo, Florida; Piqua, Ohio; and

21 Joplin, Missouri.

22 Q. First Missouri municipal corporation job?23 A. Uh-huh.

24 Q. That was a yes for the record?

25 A. Yes.



Page 53

1 Q. Did you have formalized training as a City

2 Manager?

3 A. Yeah, I've got a Master's Degree in Public

4 Administration, did an internship in the

5 first city that I worked for, then I was the

6 City Manager at the ripe old age of 27 so,

7 yes, I got some, but I learned a lot on the

8 job, too.9 Q. What school did you go to?

10 A. I went to Miami University in Oxford, Ohio

11 for undergrad, and Xavier University in

12 Cincinnati, Ohio for my Master's Degree.

13 Q. That includes ethics and legal backgrounds?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. When I asked you earlier if you had legal

16 training to the extent that legal overlaps on

17 city government I suppose you're aware of

18 when an attorney should be involved?

19 A. Sure, I had a one hour ethics class,

20 ironically enough, with a textbook written by

21 a guy named Rohr in my Master's program.

22 Q. He wasn't related, I hope?

23 A. No, it's one of the most helpful classes I

24 ever had because he got you to see things

25 from the outside looking in and how it would



Page 54

1 appear in public and a firm belief that what

2 comes out eventually needs to come out

3 immediately.

4 Q. I have been advised that there has been some

5 effort to discipline you in the near past

6 here. What was that all about?

7 A. Well, it stemmed from the Public Works

8 investigation, and my own opinion is that

9 there were agendas at play, and that was an

10 opportunity to play out some of those

11 agendas. I had to step in and correct the

12 Public Works situation, and Mr. Hertzberg is

13 a fine man, a really good man, worked for the

14 City for over 30 years, but was challenged in

15 his current position, and I had to reassign

16 him as a result of it. And the whole effort

17 that you're referring to came as a result of

18 that.

19 Q. What was the nature of the charge that was

20 brought against you?

21 A. It really wasn't clearly stated. I remember

22 hearing Dr. Rosenberg saying in the paper

23 that he thought I was bullying employees.

24 Q. I saw some statement about bullying.

25 A. And I just thought it was interesting that



Page 55

1 I'd been here eight and a half years at the

2 time and that's the first time that ever came

3 up. And I think there's a fine line between

4 enacting discipline when it has to be enacted

5 even though it's distasteful and a charge

6 like that.

7 Q. Have you had any complaints against you with

8 the Human Rights Commission as an officer?

9 A. Never.

10 Q. Any sexual misconducts or anything?

11 A. No, sir.

12 Q. Have you had any domestic issues that are

13 public?

14 A. There was an inadvertent 911 call late last

15 year at my house by my stepdaughter, but that

16 was erroneous. It was a miscommunication and

17 it was an embarrassing situation altogether,

18 but it was investigated by Council and the

19 Police Department and found not to have any

20 merit.

21 Q. Both the Police Department and the City

22 Council?

23 A. The Police Department did when they were

24 there, and they talked to the people that

25 were involved and said, no, nothing happened



Page 56

1 here, it was just a mess.2 Q. Communication problem with you and your

3 daughter?

4 A. Well, yeah, yeah. And then Council had a

5 closed session in which that was discussed,

6 and the Police Chief was in there, and he

7 made what had happened that it was found to

8 be without merit.

9 Q. Is there a police report on that?

10 A. There probably is. There's a file that's

11 been requested by community activists, the

12 Globe, and another citizen in the community,

13 and nothing has ever come of it because

14 there's nothing to come of it.

15 Q. Have you personally seen that report?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Who has that report?

18 A. The Police Department would have it. I

19 wasn't part of the investigation either, but

20 I know how things work around here.

21 Q. Well, the discipline issue has come up so I

22 mean there's no --

23 A. How is that related to - I don't understand

24 how it's related to the other stuff.

25 Q. Well, I mean anything is related that it's



Page 57

1 fit for conduct. If you're fit for your

2 office it can get into health issues and

3 everything, you know.

4 A. But I'm not the subject of the investigation. 5 I'm just wondering how someone else brings 6 that up to your attention.

7 Q. Maybe it just developed here in discussion, 8 but the simple matter is I've just been 9 advised that the City Council has brought

10 some charges and I want to know the nature --

11 A. It wasn't really charges, it was something

12 that was discussed.

13 Q. Did they file official papers on you?

14 A. Who is that?

15 Q. The City.

16 A. No, not that I know. There's a file because

17 --

18 Q. Do you have a procedure around here for

19 complaints, you know, for investigating

20 employee discipline and things?

21 A. I believe the Police Department has a

22 procedure.

23 Q. Not the City itself?

24 A. There may be. I don't know. I don't get too

25 involved in that aspect of things.



Page 58

1 Q. Who is your H.R. person?

2 A. Dave Allgood.

3 Q. Has he been here for awhile?

4 A. No, he hasn't. He's only been here for

5 approximately a year now.

6 Q. Dave Allgood. Sort of like a lawyer's name,

7 beat them and cheat them, you know. I think

8 I'd change my name. I used to know a lawyer

9 named Tom Beetamine and his friend was

10 Charlie Cheatham. Beat em and cheat em.

11 Why would you become a lawyer with that name?

12 A. Find a different partner.

13 Q. For sure. When things like this are brought

14 up I would think there would be a policy that

15 would be clear and concise, due process ought

16 to be involved.

17 A. There is.

18 Q. Name clearing hearings.

19 A. Council in the past I think that's the big

20 source of problems in the nine years I've

21 been here, what is the role of Mayor as it

22 relates to the City as a whole, what is the

23 role of Mayor as it relates to Council, and

24 how does Council police itself. There was a

25 situation about five years ago when they had



Page 59

1 to remove a Council member for violating

2 charter.

3 Q. You're a charter?

4 A. Right, and that's one of the concerns that

5 they were asked from my recollection to look

6 into was Mr. Scearce making some phone calls

7 involving himself in the administration as

8 opposed to his role as legislative.

9 Q. Have any of those issues come - I mean there

10 are going to be recommendations I make in

11 this thing and it doesn't seem like the

12 process is very well defined to me.

13 A. No, it isn't. You're very right. And I

14 thought that was one of the things that

15 Council brought up, that's what I remember

16 hearing is some of his calls related to

17 bonding issues with our legal counsel in the

18 bonding authority where he in my mind was

19 working in the administrative realm.

20 Q. He being?

21 A. Mr. Scearce. The charter is very specific

22 about the administration of the City is under

23 the sole authority of the City Manager.

24 That's the fundamental premise of the form of

25 government is to remove politics from it.



Page 60

1 Q. What chapter do you think that is in in the

2 charter?

3 A. I don't remember chapter and verse.

4 Q. Could you get me - one of the things I'd like

5 you to make a note on is get me --

6 A. Sure.

7 Q. You can use that pen. I'm interested to know

8 what part of the charter deals with your

9 authorities and the Council's and the

10 Mayor's.

11 A. Sure.

12 Q. What I'm hearing so far is confusing.

13 A. That's where we get in trouble in Joplin.

14 I've been here nine years, I don't think I

15 know everything, but I've got a pretty good

16 resource base to reflect on, but we don't

17 stay in our lanes very well. We converge

18 into other people's lanes and that's where we

19 have problems. And as you recognize it you

20 don't have rules and procedures to deal with

21 the convergence of lanes and we've got to

22 hire investigators to come in and clean it

23 up.

24 Q. It costs money and there's headaches and

25 problems.



Page 61

1 A. Yes. And he'll tell you --

2 Q. He?

3 A. Mr. Scearce is perfectly entitled to ask any

4 question that he wants at a point in time

5 that an issue is advanced to Council, and if

6 he's not ready to vote on anything or he

7 wants to make a thousand phone calls at that

8 point he's perfectly entitled to that. In my

9 mind he is not entitled to make phone calls

10 that interrupt the administrative flow we're

11 developing the information to present to

12 them.

13 Q. Micromanaging of some sort?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Anybody else on the board doing that?

16 A. No, not that I'm aware of. And that was one

17 of the things that was mentioned that night

18 was his call to a lady named Laura who is

19 involved in our bond counsel, asking her

20 questions and she's like, you're who? What's

21 this about?

22 Q. What's her name?

23 A. Laura - I'll have to get that to you. She's

24 with a company that helps us bring out bond

25 issues.



Page 62

1 Q. Legal counsel or just bond counsel?2 A. I think she's got a legal background, but

3 works for a finance company.

4 Q. Would you make a note to yourself to give me

5 her name and phone number or something?

6 Where is she out of?

7 A. They are out of I believe K.C.

8 Q. Do you remember what company that is? Is it

9 Sterner or something?

10 A. I should know, but I've got tornado on the

11 brain.

12 Q. If you don't mind giving me that information.

13 A. Sure. That's what creates problems and

14 that's why the charter is so definitive about

15 this is what you do and this is what you do.

16 Where you get into problems is where they

17 overlap.

18 Q. There aren't a whole lot of city charters in

19 Missouri. I know Hannibal is one and it

20 caused problems up there, but I don't know, a

21 big city obviously, but there are not a lot

22 of little cities that are charters. It is

23 unique.

24 A. Yeah.

25 Q. And I think you're right, there's got to be



Page 63

1 some clarifications. Let me review my notes

2 and see where I'm at.

3 A. Stifel Nicholas I think is her --

4 Q. Okay, I know that one. And that name was?

5 A. Laura, I want to say Delano, but I'm not a

6 hundred percent sure.

7 Q. I'm going to let you get that information

8 back to me.

9 A. I will.

10 Q. Delano, what do you think?

11 A. D-E-L-A-N-O, I think it is.

12 Q. I'm going to put a question mark.

13 A. I wouldn't bet my life on the last name.

14 Q. I don't think she will be a lawyer. I mean

15 she's not acting as bond counsel as a lawyer,

16 but she's probably putting the bonds and

17 stuff together.

18 A. Her main function is finance.

19 Q. Someone does the legal portion of that bond,

20 I don't know who it is, probably some big

21 Kansas City firm. But, yes, that would be

22 disconcerting, I suppose.

23 A. And the only reason I brought it up I thought

24 that was one of the things that was mentioned

25 at the meeting that the investigator was



Page 64

1 supposed to look into.

2 Q. Didn't say that in my contract, but I think

3 that --

4 A. How about the KOAM?

5 Q. The what?

6 A. KOAM.

7 Q. What's that?

8 A. That's a local news station. That was

9 brought up, too.

10 Q. Somebody from a local news station and

11 somebody from - it wasn't Carol, but somebody

12 called asking what I was doing.

13 A. Well, that had to do with Mr. Scearce.

14 There's an unwritten rule of Council that

15 once a majority makes a decision that the 16 minority accepts that decision and moves on

17 and it's business as usual. And in that

18 instance there were allegations made that the

19 day after a vote was taken on a contract

20 where he was in the minority opinion that he

21 initiated, according to them, a contact with

22 KOAM to continue to keep that issue alive.

23 Protesting the decision --

24 Q. What's the name of that?

25 A. KOAM, it's a local TV station.



Page 65

1 Q. And what was the name of the contractor?

2 A. Wallace-Bajjali. It was a Wallace-Bajjali 3 project.4 Q. What was the allegation?

5 A. It was the senior housing project, and 6 Council had voted on the night before. And I

7 believe - I believe Mr. Scearce was

8 descending a vote, alone descending a vote.

9 And I heard more than one person make the

10 allegation that after that he called them,

11 initiated the contact, getting them,

12 prompting them to investigate into the

13 situation deeper even after the vote was

14 cast, which is more - it's nothing illegal,

15 it would be more of an ethical issue as it

16 relates from Council to Council.

17 Q. I guess the City Council as such are elected?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. So you get into - I had a similar situation

20 one time in St. Charles where a guy was just 21 calling cops donut eaters. I mean, just - 22 and it was part of the local newspaper and he

23 was an elected official. And if he had

24 worked for the city he probably would have

25 been discharged from his duties, but, you



Page 66

1 know, he was an elected councilman. Those

2 guys have a lot of freedom of speech.

3 A. Yeah, I'm not saying he did anything illegal,

4 it was more of an ethical thing as it relates

5 to Council's business. I thought it was one

6 of the things that was supposed to be

7 investigated.

8 Q. Well, I didn't see that, but I did hear

9 something about a senior housing project.10 A. What I remember was --

11 Q. That's still going on, isn't it?

12 A. Yeah. What I remember is the Woolston thing

13 about property, there was the Scearce and the

14 bookie, there was the post-it note, there was

15 KOAM, and then there was a call interfering

16 with administration.

17 Q. Last two didn't get to me, but that doesn't

18 mean, you know, we won't pursue them. I'm

19 here.

20 A. I'm pretty sure that was mentioned on Council

21 floor.

22 Q. Let me get those. What was the other one?

23 A. Laura Delano.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. Involving himself in administration. You



Page 67

1 don't necessarily have to repeat the source

2 because I'm sure that will come back on me if

3 you do.

4 Q. Well, I mean I do this - I have to do this in

5 writing. That's what that is. That's a

6 transcript.

7 A. What I'm saying is that I remember those

8 things being talked about on Council floor.

9 Q. Well, you can't be held accountable for

10 truth, can you?

11 A. You should be held accountable for the truth.

12 Q. Well, I mean if you say the truth you should

13 be okay?

14 A. Should be.

15 Q. Yeah, that's the theory on it. Who is Costa?

16 A. Costa Bajjali is one of the principles of 17 Wallace-Bajjali.18 Q. That's with Bajjali, okay. Can you think of 19 any names of anybody that I should talk to

20 other than what we've discussed, including

21 these last two issues, that you think I need

22 to talk to to do my job properly here?23 A. I don't know who is on your list.

24 Q. I mean just give me some names that you think 25 and I'll decide whether or not they're on -



Page 68

1 you know, I've got names already, but anybody

2 that's just central to this investigation?3 A. Maybe some people from Wallace-Bajjali. Gary 4 Box, have you got him on your list?

5 Q. What's his name?

6 A. Gary Box, B-O-X.

7 Q. Gary Box, okay.

8 A. Works for Wallace-Bajjali. He's in their 9 local office.

10 Q. Will he come? I mean I don't have authority

11 to talk to people that aren't out of the

12 city.

13 A. I don't know. He knows a lot about the

14 history of the city and he knows a lot about

15 what is going on now. I don't know what all

16 he knows. I'm not doing it to throw him

17 under the bus.

18 Q. No, it's not a matter. I mean he either will

19 talk to me or he won't, but if there is some

20 - I mean he may have names that I need to

21 know about, so yeah, Gary Box. Do you have a

22 phone number for Wallace-Bajjali?23 A. No, I can get that for you.

24 Q. Would you mark that down?

25 A. Yeah. Can I get a copy of that? I'm getting



Page 69

1 all these things for you. Can I just get a 2 copy of that some time?

3 Q. Sure. Absolutely. There is supposedly a

4 phone that the City has given me, I don't

5 know where the heck it is, but if everything

6 else fails you can call my office in Osage

7 Beach and you can get hold of me.

8 A. I understand you had to ask questions about

9 the content - we didn't talk a whole lot

10 about my office which is secured.

11 Q. We're going to talk some more about it. I'm

12 not done yet, but thank you for reminding me.

13 Is there anybody else that you think I

14 should talk to? Obviously it goes without

15 saying any of the people on your list that

16 you've given me are people I probably need to

17 talk with.

18 A. Well, some of those people - I mean I don't

19 know how it all happened. Some of those

20 people I think are extremely or would not be

21 capable of participating in that.

22 Q. Who would be? Put check marks.

23 A. Can I go off the record?

24 Q. No, you sure can't. If you don't want me to

25 talk to somebody don't give it to me. If you



Page 70

1 do want me to talk to somebody --

2 A. I mean there's only one name on there that I

3 would even think it would be possible. I

4 don't have any knowledge that they did.

5 Q. I understand that, but I mean if it's

6 somebody I ought to look at.

7 A. But if it's written down I'm going to pay

8 hell for that later on if it doesn't prove

9 true.

10 Q. You can't withhold the information from me so

11 you don't want to do that.

12 A. Well, I don't know, it's just --13 Q. I understand. Those are people that you

14 think might have --

15 A. No, I think most everyone there would not be

16 capable of that as a person. There might be

17 a name or two that might be, but I don't have

18 any

Documents

Rohr, Mark | Investigation testimony