Oral History CollectionInternational Library Archivesand Museum of Optometry (ILAMO)St. Louis, MO

TRANSCRIPTRespondent: Mr. Robert J. Schiffer,

Director of MakeupWalt Disney ProductionsBurbank, CA

Interviewer: George M. Milkie, O.D.Program DirectorAmerican Optometric Association

Date: February 19, 1971

Place: Beverly Hilton HotelBeverly H i l l s , CA

NOTE: Dr. Mil k i e was a member of ILAMO's Oral History Project.

This interview concerns the use of contact lenses and cosmetics in the movie

industry.

Dr. Milkie: Mr. Schiffer, could you explain your background with regard to

your involvement with contact lenses and cosmetics in the movie industry.

Mr. Schiffer: Well the background cosmetically goes back to 1934 or '35.

Actually my association with contact lenses dates back to early 1942 just at

the start of the war. I was in the navy and had strange orders from my

district office to report to Dr. Nemo with the Polish consultate. I think

you'd be interested in this because its rather strange. I was the skipper of

a ship and had been requesting overseas duty and I would continually send in

requests to go overseas because at that time it was a different type war and

everyone wanted to fight. I received orders one day to report to Dr. Nemo of

the Polish Consultate and I explained I knew nothing of Poland nor did I speak

Polish but the orders were from Washington from Admiral Washe's office so I

could do nothing but just report. So Dr. Nemo sent me to Columbia Studios and

Columbia said^that was very clever of us to get you out of the Navy because we

want you to do a film. It wasn't very clevetof them because I didn't want to

do a film at that time, I was in the Navy and wanted to continue to be.

They said "we are doing this film on Poland and it has Polish propaganda value

and that is how we got you out." There are a couple of concepts that we think

you might be able to handle and one is in a sabre cut through the eye area. I

would like you to come up with this makeup. It was on Alexander Knox who was

the leading man in the film. So I knew that I was stuck for 5 to 6 months in

making this film so I had a 2 month preparation period to start it which is

quite a bit but it was fine with me after I was once into the situation. They

in turn said "do whatever you like in the concept of this makeup." So I

inquired around and found that Dr. Reuben Greenspoon was just experimenting

with contact lenses and had prior to that time worked in some films with the

lenses. I contacted him in his Beverly H i l l s office and we discussed the

possibility of an injured eye, rather large eye that would be photographically

impressive, the eye being cut really needn't be that large, but it had to be

photographically to sell the whole concept. I have never been so impressed

with anything in my life. He took me into his office and he had a little room

in the back and we tried all sorts of different lenses that he had.

Dr. Mi l k i e : Do you remember where his office was located at the time?

Mr. Schiffer: It was on Beverly Drive and Wi l s h i r e Blvd. I, in turn, moved

into the Beverly Wilshire for 2 months and charged the studio. It was too

much preparation. One of the requisites was that I had to wear my uniform all

during this because I actually was in the Navy. I would go over and see Dr.

Greenspoon every day and socialize in the evening. It was a rather pleasant

naval hitch I'd say. He would bring me in the office and we would sit in the

back room and he would put a phosphorescent solution of some sort in the lens

and then hit it with a black light. When I saw the tears go down the cheek, I

thought what a wonderful effect, photographically, if we could use it in some

concept in the film, but I don't think it has ever been done.

Dr. Milkie: This was the fluorescein solution.

Mr. Schiffer: When he hit it with a black light, I assumed he did it

apparently to avoid abrasion on the touching areas.

Dr. Milkie: Yes, for evaluation purposes.

Mr. Schiffer: My concept was that it would be great photographically if we

could take that experiment and do something with it in a dark room. I don't

know that it has ever been done to this day but it is a very good idea. The

thing that impressed me was that when the tears were coming down the cheek

they were phosphorescent tears. Anyway I worked with Dr. Greenspoon and we

tried all sorts of lenses and then we brought Alexander Knox in. We ended up

with a lens that was quite large and probably rather primitive at that time.

But it was terribly impressive because it was large and was different,

certainly, than the other eye. I used that lens and put a scar down the

forehead through the eye, into the eyelid and down through the cheek. We

worked for about 3 and a half months with this makeup, inserting that lens

every day and at that time we used, and I s t i l l do, the little rubber suction

to insert that lens. A l l during the shooting of that film we didn't have one

problem at a l l , no abrasion, nothing. It was just a job well done, he fitted

the lens very well and Alexander Knox and everyone seemed to be very happy

with it.

Dr. Milkie: You mentioned a little rubber suction cup, is there any

particular reason why you used a suction cup for placing the lens?

Mr. Schiffer: Simply because he gave it to me to use. I really wasn't

familiar with any other way of inserting the lens.

Dr. Milkie: Your work with Dr. Reuben Greenspoon must have set you off on a

completely different field of cosmetics in the movie industry. Could you

explain to us some of the other novel ways in which you were involved in the

contact lens industry as far as cosmetics are concerned.

Mr. Schiffer: Of course. In the Indian film I worked on we had to change the

Indians from blue eyed actors to brown eyed Indians. For changes in the color

of hair and skin, it was easy to put a black wig and dark makeup. The problem

remaining was the blue eye. So, contact lens was used to change the blue to a

dark brown eye. From then on I knew the value of a contact lens so when I

would do a makeup or conceive a makeup or discuss a makeup, I would think

whether there was use for a contact lens. I knew it would sell the makeup.

In other words, it would top the argument. The lenses would finish the makeup

properly and s t i l l , to this day, if I can find any use for the contact lens in

the makeup I certainly work the makeup around that rather than the contact

lens around the makeup.

Milkie: I understand that you were involved in the movie "Camelot." Can you

explain your involvement?

Schiffer: Quite involved in that. Merlin the magician presented quite a

problem if you know the story of Camelot. First I tried a rather unusual

makeup on him. I knew that if he were photographed properly as a magician he

could be a tremendously interesting character. I first made a wig for him

which was rather white and black and high in the forehead and to me he sort of

looked like a Kibuki dancer and I was a little discouraged with the whole

concept. Then I had the idea of the eyes reflecting or flashing and if we

could possibly mirror the back of the lens to reflect the cameraman's light,

Merlin would then emerge from a tree which was part of the sequence. The

scene would open when it was completely dark and suddenly a soft light would

reflect on the eyes of Merlin, being mirrors. A l l you would see were the eyes

like an owl in this tree and you didn't see the figure. Suddenly it would get

lighter and lighter and the eyes would become part of the face of Merlin, the

magician. It was tremendously effective. But to get back to the concept of

it, I didn't know whether it would work or not so I went to visit with the son

of Dr. Greenspoon, ^Jr., Morton. He worked very closely with me and he came up

with a method of fusing a mirror to the back of the lens, which we used.

Strangely enough we made them up in a blue tone thinking it would be

acceptable but just the clear mirror without the blue tint seemed to work the

best. The blue cut down the brilliance. Visually it was very effective but

photographically you would lose so much from the concept that we had to go

overboard on the density of the mirroring. If you have seen "Camelot" you

know it was quite an impressive lens and makeup, if I must say so.

Dr. Milkie: Yes it was. Have you had any particular amusing incidents with

regard to the use of cosmetic contact lenses.

Mr. Schiffer: Well they are amusing to me. They are tragic to the actor.

The actors are basically children anyway. I have had an occasion where one of

the lenses slipped down, I don't know the technical term fcRit, into the lower

part of the eye where it disappeared completely. You feel you have dropped it

some place, but it is really in the eye and they don't know where it is, they

get terribly panicky, and suddenly find that it is in the eye. This always

occasions a realy Academy Award performance that you dionot ask for. Things

are never ideal for inserting contact lenses while making a film. It is

either 3 in the morning or in the middle of a dust storm or on top of a

mountain or a rolling ship. That is where you have to insert the lenses. You

have to be a madman to do these things. In "Hallelujah Trail," a film we made

in Gallup, N. Mexico, it was the first use of a contact lens for this actor

and he was to be an Indian.

Dr. Milkie: Nho was the actor?

Mr. Schiffer: Martin Landau who was in Mission Impossible, and "Impossible"

is a good name for his character. He is terribly sensitive. Some people, I

guess are just this way, I know ̂ am. I have a difficult time putting in a

contact lens. I have tried it in experimenting with colors. Landau was

extremely sensitive and he was instructed how to insert the lenses himself.

The first thing he did was to drop it in this dust storm and got a grain of

sand in it. Ne washed it but there was s t i l l sand in it which didn't help

matters. Then he lost it in his eye, it slipped down someplace, and by this

time he was panicky. He was nervous and upset and they were waiting for him

to go on in the shot. He was an "Indian" riding the horse. Finally I went to

the director and said, "this w i l l never work." Instead of starting the film

with dark eyes, we had better start with blue eyes, [laughter] He had bright

blue eyes. "We w i l l call him Chief Sky Eye." Strangely enough, no one everX.

really paid any attention to the fact he had blue eyes. I don't know whether

the name "Sky Eye" fit or what but the public accepted it.

In an upcoming film for Disney, I have a particular problem in that I w i l l

have a dozen or so actors all wearing contact lenses. They w i l l be unusual

contacts, having a reflective quality again, but only in an ice-blue color.

It is going to be very difficult to get 5 to 12 actors that can wear contact

lenses without weeks of instruction, I should think, because, as I said, they

are basically extremely sensitive anyway. They are very touchy. It w i l l be a

problem. I am not looking forward to it at all. [laughter]

Dr. Milkie: How much are contact lenses used in the movie industry today?

Schiffer: You mean cosmetically, not unusual makeups?

Dr. Milkie: Yes.

Mr. Schiffer: Percentagewise, I would say about 25 to 307« of the women wear

them. An awful lot of men wear them.

Mi l k i e : Is that just for special effectis or just that they are wearing

contact lenses?

Schiffer: No, just to be able to see the other actor whil e they are working.

Milkie: How about for special effects. How often do you think contact lenses

are utilized?

Schiffer: I don't really know percentagewise. "Planet of the Apes", of

course, was a big cosmetic film.

Milkie: When a producer or director calls for contact lenses, are you usually

involved in this particular film?

Schiffer: I have been because of my association with "old Dr. Greenspoon."

Suddenly you get a reputation, not deserving I might add, because you happen

to be there first or one of the first. I have been extremely lucky with the

uses of contact lenses. I have inserted them myself. I don't get panicky and

I find it very easy to do. Other makeup men seem to get a l i t t l e panicky

about it because it is something they are not familiar with. Normally, I

guess, a technician is involved in doing it. But I enjoy doing it because I

am able to do it.

Milkie: You handle the contact lenses? What I mean is when contact lenses

are utilized in a movie, do you handle the lenses or does the actor have

control of the lenses.

Schiffer: I handle them and I make sure they are locked up at night because

if you lose one there is quite an expense involved, not in the lens itself,

but in the hold up of production. I watch them closely, all day long, when

they remove them for lunch or between scenes they are in my possession and at

night they are locked in my drawer. I clean them and keep them in good

condition.

Milkie: Do you usually remove them or the actor?

Schiffer: I usually do.

Milkie: You have complete control over the lenses then. In working with Dr.

Reuben Greenspoon do you recall any particularly amusing incidents that

occurred at that time?

Schiffer: That is almost 30 years ago. [laughter] I just recall that I

enjoyed the fellow tremendously because he had such an interest in what he was

doing. At the expense of other patients we would sit in that back room and

more or less play with these concepts of contact lenses. I found it

interesting that he would sacrifice monetary gain to sit in there and play

with me when he wasn't making much from the situation. I am sure he lost

money, but I knew he was interested and he knew I was interested and it was

fun.

Milkie: Was there anyone else other than Dr. Greenspoon involved in the

cosmetic fitting of contact lenses?

Schiffer: At that time?

Milkie: From that time to the present date.

Schiffer: I think there are others. Some studios have a preference for

someone they started with. I have never dealt with anyone but Drs. Greenspoon

senior and junior but I think there are a few others. The actor in

"Hallelujah Trail" went to his own doctor. I couldn't do anything about

that. As a matter of fact, that may have been part of the problem we had with

Marty Landau. If he had gone to Dr. Greenspoon with me he would have been

indoctrinated properly. I don't think the indoctrination was well done

because he was panicky when he arrived on the set. He arrived with his own

lenses and this was one of the few cases where it was all handled by the actor

and his doctor.

Milkie: As far as you know then Dr. Reuben Greenspoon was the first

optometrist involved in the movie industry in fitting of contact lenses.

Schiffer: Yes, because I certainly wasn't the first one to use them. I think

there have been a few films prior to mine that had used them. From that is

where I got his name.

Milkie: I understand presently you are involved in cosmetics other than

contact lenses in relation to their use with contact lenses, I am not wording

it properly but possibly the utilization of mascara and other cosmetics to

accentuate the cosmetic contact lens. Can you explain that a l i t t l e bit?

Schiffer: Nell I think when you are changing the color of the eye to

lavender, or a blue or a green, it sometimes is complimentary to that lens to

use blue or green mascara if the lash is light enough to accept it. Sometimes

a black lash w i l l present a problem but if you coat it heavily enough you w i l l

have the color effect. In other words the whole eye area w i l l have the green

hue to it. You can even enhance that by a s l i g h t irridescent eye shadow

around the eye. In other words it would be a very attractive colorful area

encompassing the whole eye and the shadow around the eye. Mascara can be a

problem to a wearer of contact lenses because of the flakiness. When it does

flake, the water soluble mascara could possibly cause an irritation under the

lens or in the cornea of the eye. Even without contact lenses mascara in the

eye can be uncomfortable. Mascara containing heavier doses of silicone have a

tendency to coat on and have a hard surface which is more difficult to

remove. With waterproof mascaras, the tears wouldn't get it into the eye and

under the lens. It really is a waterproof mascara which I think is advisable

to use as opposed to the other water soluble mascaras.

Milkie: You referred to a recent article in one of the Los Angeles papers, I

believe the Los Angeles Herald, appearing approximately 2 weeks ago. Could

you explain the details of that article?

Schiffer: W e l l , it was quite an article. It was the lead article in the

"Woman's World." It dealth with my position and what I was doing. I am not

looking forward to one in the 'New York Times' on me and one in "West".

Considering the amount of mail I have received on the first article, I don't

want it repeated on the others because it has become a chore to answer. I

didn't realize the potential or excitement it would generate among women. At

the end of the article I mentioned the trouble I am having with contact, or

rather coming up with the concept of a contact lens to change the color or an

eye to iridescent blue that would flash and also the use of contact lenses in

general. And all the mail has been just on that subject. I had a letter the

other day that says "I wear contact lenses and I feel that photographically

they have a glassy look, what can I do to overcome the glassy look." Well she

is talking to the wrong party. It isn't my bailiwick. I must say the

interest it generated was quite amazing. I have heard of the soft lens. I

don't really know much about the new soft lens but it seems sort of an answer

to a lot of things.

Milkie: In what way do you think it w i l l be an answer?

Schiffer: I think the material, how it adapts to the eye, and I don't see

that the soft lens would have the reflective quality. I don't know, but it

seems to make sense to me, that it would mold easier to the eye. My immediate

problem is coming up with a concept of these b r i l l i a n t eyes that w i l l reflect

lit t l e granules, little diamonds, little green or icy blue diamonds so if

anyone in your business can help me with that, I would appreciate it.

Milkie: Are you working now on anything in particular that would be of

interest with regards to contact lenses?

Schiffer: I think Hollywood at the present time is hardly working on

anything. It is a pretty dull period. Our studio hasn't had a production for

the last two or three months but we are starting next month on production and

we w i l l go right on through the end of the year with this film I was telling

you about. As a matter of fact, they can't really do the film, it is that

important - unless we come up with a contact lens that w i l l be impressive

enough to make the person look that different. The group that have eyes, that

I have been discussing, are just an isolated group, at the top of the world,

that no one has ever seen. The tag of the film is that one fellow is flying

over andfee has the eye of the people who are in this particular area and it is

the great story point at the end of the film. So it is a rather important

ending and the lenses w i l l have to sell the film, or we can't really do it.

Dr. Mi l k i e : Do you have any other comments with regard to contact lenses in

the movie industry?

Schiffer: I can only say that it is the finish of a makeup well done. I like

to use a contact lens because I know it w i l l make me look good. Many times

what I think is a good makeup falls flat. But if I can incorporate the use of

a contact lens it w i l l sell my makeup and sell me many times.

Dr. Milkie: Thank you very much. If there any chance of getting a copy of

the article from the Herald? Do you happen to have one?

Schiffer: Yes, I must have a dozen of them.

Milkie: I appreciate you taking the time to talk with us. We w i l l be

corresponding with you. Have you ever published articles concerning your work

in this area?

Schiffer: Oh yes, but not in the contact lens field at a l l , just in makeup

generally.

Mil k i e : What general subject areas? Give us some titles and where they were

published if you could, please.

Schiffer: I wish I could show some of them to you but my home burned down in

a fire and I have lost almost all my photos and articles, but the most recent

I think is on the concept of the makeup of the '40's appearing in the '70's.

The cycle of the makeup seems to be coming back which I don't agree with but

it happens to be the present day fad with the thin eyebrows and the heavily

made up lips. I have been through two of those cycles already and I

appreciate the heavier eyebrow which I think frames the eye rather than the

thin penciled eyebrow which is too obvious. Your eye goes directly to the

eyebrow. I have an article on that In the New York Times I believe. An

article in Nest on the Academy Award makeups that really haven't been

recognized and should have been by my peers. I think some of our men have

done outstanding jobs in makeup and only a few have been recognized by the

Academy members. As a matter of fact I did a makeup in "Bird Man of Alcatraz"

where I took Burt Lancaster from 16 years old to 85, but all during the steps

of the transformation you weren't really conscious of him getting older until

suddenly he was old, which is kind of a compliment. I say this complimenting

myself because it has been done in print and I don't feel so bad. Someone

wrote a letter to the Academy of Arts and Sciences and they were astounded at

the fact there wasn't an award for outstanding makeup of the year whereas the

cinematographer would be awarded, the set decorator, the man who turns on the

lights but nothing for the makeup artist. They were up in arms because they

had seen "Bird Man of Alcatraz" and there wasn't any recognition for the

makeup.

John Chambers got the award for "Planet of the Apes" and deservedly so and

B i l l Tuttle for the "Faces of Dr. Loo" or something like that. Anyway that is

only two out of a lifetime of makeup and it is rather sad. But, we go on and

I think that basically the committee of the Academy Award members is usually

made up of actors and I don't think they really want the p u b l i c to know they

need us.

Dr. Milkie: You indicated previously that you were involved in cosmetics

before your work with Dr. Reuben Greenspoon. What other background do you

have? What got you into cosmetics?

Schiffer: I studied chemistry of cosmetics in school and during my summer

vacations I would take trips as a seaman aboard a ship and I had missed my

ship at Shanghai, almost purposely, and I didn't want to turn myself in to the

American consul. I had met a fellow aboard ship named Max Choffey who owned a

drug store in the Astor House in Shanghai and we were very friendly. By the

way, the barber at the ship was getting $5 a head to do makeup on the

passengers for the captain's dinner, you know "A night out of port". He

always had more business than he could handle and I would take the overflow

out on the ship's hatch. I was painting at that time and interested in

cosmetics and I would make them up for $2.50. Anyway, I went to Max Choffey,

the owner of the Astor House drugstore and asked if he had a job. I was

stuck, I missed my ship. He asked what I could do and I said I could make

cosmetics. He said go ahead and make up something and we w i l l sell it. I

made up a cosmetic which was basically lard perfumed and colored and I used

the same lard for everything. When I say lard I mean animal fat and wax and I

used the same formula for all the cosmetics but just colored them differently

and put a different perfume in each. I put them in aluminum cans. Then I

inscribed on the soft aluminum "John Hollywood". That was the name of the

cosmetic. I had a moisturizer cream, I had a makeup remover cream, I had a

cold cream. You must remember this was '33 or'34. Very few knew about

cosmetics in those days. There were white Russians in Shanghai at that time.

The minute they heard of these cosmetics they flew to that Astor House and

they bought up everything. I could have been a m u l t i - b i l l i o n a i r e if I had

stayed in the Orient. I kept running in the backroom and mi x i n g more of this

junk and putting it in the cans and thank God they bought them and ran out

with them because on the third day on the metal can, the zinc from the lead

would eat into the cold cream and you had a black ring around the cold cream,

[laughter] But that was my first introduction to the power of the cosmetic

business. To this date look what has happened to big companies like Revlon.

Charles Revson about 20 years ago called me up then he was at the Beverly

H i l l s Hotel and he said he would like to talk to me. I didn't know who

Charley Revson was, he hardly knew, himself, at that time. Revlon was really

not a company. He said we have a cosmetic called Revlon and we would like you

to go on the road and demonstrate it and if things work out alright you can

come in with the company, we can work something out. What he was w i l l i n g to

pay was what I was getting then as a makeup artist plus subsistence on the

road. I was young and I had an airplane, a boat and a lot of girls. So who

wants to run around and demonstrate cosmetics? I could have been

vice-president of Revlon at this time instead of working with Mickey and

Minnie Mouse.

Milkie: That is very interesting, but you are working with Mickey and Minnie

Mouse. Thank you again very much, I appreciate your time.