SENATE - Parliament of AustraliaHOME, Mr Stephen, Executive Director (Human Resources), Education Department of Western Australia, 151 Royal Street, East Perth, Western Australia 6004

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA

SENATE

EMPLOYMENT, EDUCATION AND TRAINING REFERENCES COMMITTEE

Reference: Status of teachers

PERTH

Thursday, 18 September 1997

OFFICIAL HANSARD REPORT

CANBERRA

SENATE


Members

Senator Crowley (Chair)Senator Tierney (Deputy Chair)

Senator Carr Senator O’BrienSenator Denman Senator Stott DespojaSenator Ferris Senator Troeth

Participating members

Senator Abetz Senator Bob CollinsSenator Allison Senator ColstonSenator Bolkus Senator MargettsSenator Bob Brown Senator Synon

Matter referred by the Senate for inquiry into and report on:

The status of teachers and the development of the profession during the next fiveyears. Issues include community perception of, and teacher attitudes towards, the teachingprofession, and matters of teacher training and supply.

WITNESSES

BOSICH, Ms Barbara Elaine, Senior Lecturer in Early Childhood Education,Faculty of Education, Curtin University of Technology, Kent Street,Bentley, Western Australia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 488

BROWNE, Mr Peter John, Acting Chief Executive Officer, Department ofEducation Services, 3rd Floor, London House, 216 St Georges Terrace,Perth, Western Australia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 460

DUCKWORTH, Ms Pamela, Director, Human Resource Policy and Planning,Education Department of Western Australia, 151 Royal Street, EastPerth, Western Australia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 460

HARRISON, Professor Bernard Thomas, Dean, Faculty of Education, EdithCowan University, Dean’s Office, Mount Lawley Campus, 2 BradfordStreet, Mount Lawley, Western Australia 6050 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 488

HOME, Mr Stephen, Executive Director (Human Resources), EducationDepartment of Western Australia, 151 Royal Street, East Perth,Western Australia 6004 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 460

JACKSON, Mrs Audrey, Executive Director, Association of IndependentSchools of Western Australia, 3/41 Walters Drive, Osborne Park,Western Australia 6017 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 460

PURDY, Mr Neil Joseph, Senior Workforce Planner, Education Department ofWestern Australia, 151 Royal Street, East Perth, Western Australia . . . . 460

REEVES, Dr Noelene Florence, Director, Early Childhood Education,Education Department of Western Australia, 151 Royal Street, EastPerth, Western Australia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 460

REYNOLDS, Ms Patricia Anne, Higher Education Project Officer,Department of Education Services, 3rd Floor, London House, 216 StGeorges Terrace, Perth, Western Australia 6000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 460

SHORTLAND-JONES, Dr Bruce, Acting Dean and Co-ordinator ofPre-Service Education, Faculty of Education, Curtin University ofTechnology, Kent Street, Bentley, Western Australia 6102. . . . . . . . . . . . 488

WARD, Mr Kim, Director, Primary and Specialist Personnel (HumanResources), Education Department of Western Australia, 151 RoyalStreet, East Perth, Western Australia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 460

SENATE


Status of teachers

PERTH

Thursday, 18 September 1997

Present

Senator Crowley (Chair)

Senator Carr Senator Troeth

Participating Member

Senator Allison

The committee met at 8.23 a.m.

Senator Crowley took the chair.

459

EE&T 460 SENATE—References Thursday, 18 September 1997

EMPLOYMENT, EDUCATION AND TRAINING

Thursday, 18 September 1997 SENATE—References EE&T 461

BROWNE, Mr Peter John, Acting Chief Executive Officer, Department of EducationServices, 3rd Floor, London House, 216 St Georges Terrace, Perth, Western Australia

REYNOLDS, Ms Patricia Anne, Higher Education Project Officer, Department ofEducation Services, 3rd Floor, London House, 216 St Georges Terrace, Perth,Western Australia 6000

DUCKWORTH, Ms Pamela, Director, Human Resource Policy and Planning,Education Department of Western Australia, 151 Royal Street, East Perth, WesternAustralia

HOME, Mr Stephen, Executive Director (Human Resources), Education Departmentof Western Australia, 151 Royal Street, East Perth, Western Australia 6004

PURDY, Mr Neil Joseph, Senior Workforce Planner, Education Department ofWestern Australia, 151 Royal Street, East Perth, Western Australia

REEVES, Dr Noelene Florence, Director, Early Childhood Education, EducationDepartment of Western Australia, 151 Royal Street, East Perth, Western Australia

WARD, Mr Kim, Director, Primary and Specialist Personnel (Human Resources),Education Department of Western Australia, 151 Royal Street, East Perth, WesternAustralia

JACKSON, Mrs Audrey, Executive Director, Association of Independent Schools ofWestern Australia, 3/41 Walters Drive, Osborne Park, Western Australia 6017

CHAIR —I welcome the officers from the Department of Education Services, thethe Education Department of Western Australia and the Association of IndependentSchools of Western Australia. The committee prefers that all evidence should be given inpublic but should you at any stage wish to give your evidence, part of your evidence oranswers to specific questions in camera, you may ask to do so and the committee willconsider your request. I point out, however, that evidence taken in camera maysubsequently be made public by order of the Senate, as has happened in the last few years.The committee has before it a document, No. 140. Is there any other material that youwould care to table at this stage?

Mrs Jackson—Yes.

Ms Reynolds—Yes.

CHAIR —Mrs Jackson has tabled a submission, and Ms Reynolds has tabled adocument entitled ‘Department of Education Services Analysis of TISC Data’.



Senator CARR—What is the difference between the Department of EducationServices and the Education Department? Is there a difference?

Mr Browne —I thought it may be of value to the committee if I was to explainbriefly the structure of the government sector of education in Western Australia and thestatistical division in the non-government sector.

At the outset, I apologise for the absence of the Catholic Education Commission,who have put in a previous submission to your committee on a national basis. This weekis Catholic Education Week and they are unavailable; they tender their apologies.

The division between the government and the non-government sectors in WesternAustralia is approximately 73 per cent to 27 per cent. With regard to the division betweenthe two sectors within the non-government sector—that is, the Catholic and the non-Catholic sectors—approximately two-thirds of students attend school in the Catholicsector, and the remainder are in the non-Catholic sector.

To answer the question of the government educational structure in WesternAustralia, the Education Department is responsible for the administration of schools inWestern Australia. The recently established Curriculum Council is, again, a separatestatutory authority, and it is responsible for the K to 10 curriculum framework and theyear 11 and 12 public examinations, called ‘TEE’, in Western Australia.The Department ofEducation Services covers the offices of higher education, non-government andinternational education, the Country High Schools Hostels Authority, and education policyand coordination. In this context, the Education Department is mainly representing theOffice of Education Policy and Coordination, hence its cross-sectoral role this morning.

CHAIR —Thank you. I now invite you to make some introductory comments.

Mr Browne —I propose, at the outset, to make preliminary comments relating tothe submission, and Mr Home and Mrs Jackson can make subsequent comments. We hada previous discussion, as you may well have expected, and we think it would be mostuseful to the committee if we could answer the questions on a panel basis and pick upwhichever is the relevant sector. Of course, questions may relate to more than one sector.

CHAIR —That is fine.

Mr Browne —The Department of Education Services addressed, firstly, the issue ofdemand and supply in its submission, of which you have a copy. Ms Reynolds will makesome additional comments to offer some supplementary information relating to thestatistical information we have which, I think, would be most useful to the committee.

The second issue addressed by the Department of Education Services was theperception of teaching as a profession. The government in Western Australia on a cross-



sectoral basis has one strategy to address that—establishing the Centre for ProfessionalExcellence with three main objectives. The first is promoting access to coordinated,quality, professional development and training. The second is to acknowledge excellencein the teaching profession. The third is to support professional associations. We hope thatthat will play a significant role in lifting the status of teaching in Western Australia.

The third area that was addressed by the Department of Education Services was themove to attract high achieving entrants into teacher training. We have tabled informationrelating to 30 scholarships that will be available for students. Approximately 10 of thosewill be going to Aboriginal people.

The fourth area I make mention of is that of Aboriginal teachers. The number ofindigenous people going into teaching is regrettably low. Western Australia has establishedthe Aboriginal Education Training Council. That council is working with the deans ofeducation using the indigenous education strategic initiatives program to fund alternativecareers so that those people going into those courses may have a more incremental stagedstudy and recognition program. They do not do a three- or four-year course and then goteaching, but they have it on a more structured basis. This, we would hope, will eventuallylead to a full degree.

The last issue on which I will speak that is not covered in our submission is theestablishment recently by the Minister for Education in Western Australia of the Rural andRemote Advisory Council. Amongst its work it will seek to identify impediments toequality between the rural and urban education opportunities for students. The teachingcomponent, of course, will be examined in that context.

The role of the status of teaching will be examined by that council to determinewhether there is an issue relating to the number of teachers who are prepared to go to thecountry to teach and if there is any lessening of the quality of those teachers compared toteachers teaching students in Perth. The Education Department will speak, no doubt, aboutthis issue.

CHAIR —When was the Rural and Remote Advisory Council established?

Mr Browne —Two months ago.

CHAIR —That is 1997. How long have you had education services separate fromthe Education Department?

Mr Browne —Since 1 July 1996. I draw a distinction there. It has not beenseparated from the Education Department, but rather it was a matter of rounding up aseries of other departments to come under one umbrella. I now turn to Ms Pat Reynoldsand ask her if she would make supplementary comment on the supply and demand.



Ms Reynolds—I would like to make some comments about the supply and demandand about reference 5. In regard to the supply and demand of teachers, we would want toreaffirm our statement in the submission that we believe that the supply of primary andsecondary teacher education graduates may not meet demand within a few years becauseof the demography in Western Australia, because of increasing enrolments in the schoolsand because of the changeover from a three-year undergraduate degree to a four-yeardegree, which means there will be fewer graduates in 1999.

If a shortage does occur, the usual way to address it is through recruitment fromoverseas. It does not look as if this would be a possibility. Also, I do not believe it isdesirable to do that.

CHAIR —Why won’t it be possible?

Ms Reynolds—Because the usual target areas that we go to—Great Britain, NewZealand—are already recruiting in Australia. I do not know if you saw in theAustralianjust this weekend that New Zealand was advertising for 600 teachers.

CHAIR —I think it was drawn to our attention—a very good offer newsprint ad—at yesterday’s heading.

Ms Reynolds—In view of the fact that there will not be an easy to address theshortage, we believe it is essential to maintain the intakes into teacher education atuniversities. I would just like to note that the latest university profile documents show thatthe intakes are being maintained in total. In regard to terms of reference five, we haveupdated a table and a graph that we have provided previously to incorporate 1997information. Should I hand out copies of this now?

CHAIR —Yes, if you have some further updated material, that would be veryuseful, thank you.

Ms Reynolds—The first page is an update of a graph that we provided previously.It shows the tertiary entrance scores of people receiving an offer to enter higher educationthis year. The top graph is for total people receiving offers and the bottom graph is forpeople receiving offers into teacher education. As you can see, the majority of teachereducation people are in the lowest grouping of tertiary entrance scores.

CHAIR —Is 250 the cut-off?

Ms Reynolds—It is not really; it is about 260. If you look over the page, there is atable setting out the trends over the last few years and 290 is the normal cut-off. This isequivalent to 260 as I have adjusted the scores for 1995 and 1997. At the level of cut-offscores, the scores are not quite comparable because of a smaller number of TE students inthe last few years and because of Western Australia’s procedure for scaling. But, even



with the adjustment, you can see that, in most cases from 1993 onwards, the trend hasbeen downwards.

CHAIR —If you put law, English literature—

Ms Reynolds—The trend in most courses would have been down—the course withhigher cutoffs are not affected by that.

CHAIR —Could you provide to the committee on notice some figures of theentrance scores into universities for other disciplines so that, instead of just looking ateducation, we could also look at medicine, law, mathematics and engineering. And if itwere possible to give us a gender breakdown of some or all of them, that would be a bighelp.

Ms Reynolds—Yes.

CHAIR —Thank you very much. If that is a major disaster, then we will settle fora moderate disaster. I do not expect you to do huge work but if you could get somethingcomparable—if those figures are to hand—that would be enormously useful to thecommittee.

Ms Reynolds—Yes. The other material I have provided is just some informationyou might be interested in about the teaching scholarships which have now beenimplemented. The first group will be provided next year. There will be 30 scholarships,including some for Aboriginal people. They will mostly be to encourage some higherscoring TE students into teaching and they will cover the cost of the HECS for the periodthat they are studying.

CHAIR —Maybe you can tell us later how you get a scholarship and what willhappen if they all go to the University of Notre Dame. Does that conclude your remarks?

Ms Reynolds—Yes, there is just one more sheet that is some promotional materialthat appeared in theWest Australianat this time last year. It was a joint effort from thedeans of the universities to try to encourage people into teaching.

CHAIR —Did it make a difference?

Ms Reynolds—Hopefully it did. But it is to show you that the deans do worktogether on these issues.

CHAIR —According to what you have just said, they work together atnonproductive exercises.

Ms Reynolds—There is no evidence of whether it was a productive or otherwise.



There is a little bit of evidence of some TE scores actually being a little higher insecondary areas last year so maybe—

CHAIR —I think it was the Queensland department who indicated that, when theypromoted teaching, they had more students apply and students with higher scores. Iwonder if you could check whether there is any evidence that might suggest this did havesome impact.

Ms Reynolds—The evidence from the graph is that things have actuallydeteriorated in terms of tertiary entrance scores.

CHAIR —That is a worry.

Senator ALLISON—The closing date for applications is 31 October, is it not, soyou would not know yet how many applications—

Ms Reynolds—For the scholarships, yes.

CHAIR —I would now ask Mr Home to speak.

Mr Home—Thank you, Senator. I do not want to draw too much on the changesthat the department is having to deal with in the context of education—I am sure you haveheard this in each state—as the situation here is very similar. Just touching very briefly onthose changes: community scrutiny of the teaching profession obviously is increasingsignificantly; students, parents and employers are demanding greater changes in the rangeof subject options; student demographics are changing considerably; and a typical classnow is very different from what a typical class was some years ago in terms of ages,social and cultural backgrounds, students with emotional, physical or behavioural problemsand so forth.

Governments are, of course, requiring improvements and changes due to ever-increasing and changing demands of the community. I think there is a reflection of thatdaily in the press, and this morning’s local newspaper is no exception. Unprecedentedsocial and technological change is clearly impacting significantly on the education sectorand on teachers. The education department believes that the opportunity does present itselffor the teaching profession to reassert its position.

The education department is undertaking a range of initiatives which I will justbriefly touch on and, if further information is required, I can take that during questioning.The introduction of a performance management system for the first time across the entireteaching profession has been introduced this year; so there is now a broad integratedperformance management system applying to all schools and to all teachers.

Mr Browne touched on the establishment of the centre for excellence, which the



education department has worked with his department in developing the concepts for. Weare working closely with the professional associations representing the various teachersectors and with the teachers union on a range of initiatives designed to improve thestatus, standing and expertise of the profession.

We have entered into a dialogue—and we wish to pursue this a bit moreintensely—with the universities regarding the development of courses and thecompetencies and standards that fall from their courses, which obviously the teacherswhom we hope to employ would come from university with. Professional developmentand training is obviously a key initiative which it is difficult to satisfy the demand for. Butclearly it is an imperative in terms of maintaining the currency, the relevance and thequality of teachers’ skills.

We have recently announced that we will be moving towards a system of meritpromotion for our administrative positions within schools. We have a transfer system thatapplies for promotional positions for principals, deputy principals and heads ofdepartments whereby, once someone attains a particular level, they are then transferred,based on seniority, throughout the school system. That is based on them determining apreference for a particular school and then their seniority determining whether they havethat preference satisfied. We are moving towards appointing administrators to particularpositions in schools and each one of those positions being filled on the basis of the meritsof the applicants.

CHAIR —Does ‘administrator’ mean someone other than the principal?

Mr Home—No. By administrators, I mean principals, deputy principals and headsof departments, so that is anyone with an administrative responsibility within the school.

CHAIR —Are they pleased to be called administrators? Do not answer that now,Mr Home, keep going.

Mr Home—It seems to be the protocol. There is an increasing move towards localinput into school decision making. This obviously is something that is occurring in otherjurisdictions. There has been the establishment of school councils—local selection—andthe involvement of communities in the selection of teachers and the leaders of the schools.

CHAIR —You might make a note to tell us a bit more about local selection lateras well.

Mr Home—Yes. There has been devolution of decision making and accountabilityto the school level. A move towards school based management exists here, of course, as itdoes elsewhere. We have flexible work options in place to try to retain skilled teacherswithin the work force. That is something we continue to talk to the union and the newassociations about.



So that is just a quick snapshot of some of the initiatives in the time we haveavailable. Obviously, the issues that the committee is addressing are clearly matters thatare daily factors that the department has to consider and discuss with all of those relevantstakeholders.

Mrs Jackson—The Association of Independent Schools of Western Australiarepresents 103 schools, varying from those schools that are traditionally identified asindependent schools to 14 Aboriginal independent community schools, which are some ofthe most remote in the state. I would like to address four issues.

The first issue is the tertiary entrance levels. I think the tertiary entrance levels forcourses in education, whether primary or secondary, are disturbingly low. The minimumlevel that it was possible to enter with was a score of 250, and that actually represents ascaled score average of less than 50 in the subjects that are being taken at tertiary entrancelevel. I believe the reasons for that are linked, in part, to the community attitude toteaching. It is not seen as a worthwhile profession, and I will comment on that in amoment.

In terms of supply and demand, it is very difficult to assess whether there might bea general shortage of teachers in primary or secondary education in Western Australia, butwhat can be said already is that there is a significant shortage of well-qualified teachers incertain areas. Mathematics and physical sciences come to mind. In fact, Edith CowanUniversity is seeking to introduce a double degree that may address that issue—the issueof the shortage of maths and science teachers.

CHAIR —What is the double degree going to be?

Mrs Jackson—It is going to be a double degree in education and eithermathematics or science. It will be a BA-BSc. But it is not quite that simple. One mightsay, for example, that in social sciences there is an oversupply of teachers coveringhistory, geography and economics. The fact is that economics teachers are very scarce. Soit is quite problematic as to the prediction of where the shortages are.

In order to resolve the supply of teachers in those sorts of areas, I believe thatincentives should be offered to mature age students who wish to change career paths.Perhaps they have had a successful career in a science based course in a mathematics areaor economics and wish to make a career move. The incentive might be in the form of ascholarship for study, even if it is simply a scholarship to cover HECS. That seems to beone way of recruiting highly qualified people into the profession.

We number among our members 14 Aboriginal community schools. Nine of themare classified as remote and are located in the Pilbara and the Kimberley. Interestingly,they are predominantly staffed by teachers from Victoria and South Australia, not fromWestern Australia.



A small minority of the teachers are indigenous Australians. I believe that it isnecessary to offer a quality, inclusive education to the children in those schools. If that isgoing to happen, then we probably need to have teachers who are indigenous Australians.The University of Notre Dame in Broome is working in that regard. Students can study fortwo years in their remote campus and then go into schools and work with a supervisingteacher. So progress is being made but there is a long way to go.

Looking at teacher education itself, the content of initial teacher education coursesneeds to be considered. I believe you need a balance between academic rigour in majorand minor subjects and also a significant input into the methodology of teaching. Thislinks back to the tertiary entrance levels. On the one hand, teachers are going to teachsome very bright students and they need the academic background to do so. On the otherhand, they are going to teach children with educational difficulties. If they are going to dothat, they need to be skilled in a variety of techniques in order to find one that isappropriate to children’s needs.

I believe that teachers are being challenged by the rapid development ofinformation technology, and that is an issue both for beginning teacher education and alsofor ongoing professional development. Because of the increasing emphasis in this state onthe methodology of teaching through the establishment of the Curriculum Council andcurriculum frameworks, I believe that the one-year end-on qualification is probably limitedin life—that is, the one-year graduate diploma after a first degree. It simply does not givesufficient time for a really thorough grounding in the methodology of teaching.

CHAIR —This is not a Dip. Ed.?

Mrs Jackson—Yes, it is a Dip. Ed.

CHAIR —Can you tell us a bit more about why you think it has got a limited life?

Mrs Jackson—If the Dip. Ed. is going to be a worthwhile qualification, it has tocover three areas. Firstly, it has to include the philosophy and sociology of teaching;secondly, it has got to look at curriculum issues—how curriculum is developed; thirdly, ithas got to look at the application of knowledge already gained and put it into a context ofhow you are going to teach children a particular subject. There needs to be a significantpractice component. To fit all that into four university terms or two semesters is verydifficult. I believe that ongoing education needs to be addressed and that the professionand employing authorities need to look at their employment structures to see if there is away that that can be built in.

Finally, I think one of the biggest problems is community attitudes andexpectations. On the one hand, schools and their teachers are being required to take on amore significant role in the lives of their students through the provision of what I callsocial education and, of course, pastoral care. But at the same time, schools and teachers



are criticised for a lack of professional standards. So there is an inherent incompatibilitythere—the expectation with the vision.

In order to improve the image of the profession, and as a consequence encourageyoung people to view teaching as worthwhile, I believe a concerted campaign is neededinvolving state and federal governments, the teacher unions, the employing authorities and,most importantly, the teachers themselves.

CHAIR —That is the opening round; I will call for questions now and any and allon the panel might bid to make a comment.

Senator CARR—We have had submissions from a range of government agenciesacross the country and it seems to me that there is a consistent pattern emerging of a deepand abiding malaise in morale of the teachers across this country. Does the WesternAustralian government share the views of the New South Wales and Queenslandgovernments that there is a crisis of morale within our teaching services? As you are fromtwo different departments, I ask: does your government share that view?

Mr Browne —It is only a very preliminary comment. I do not think that theWestern Australian government would agree that there is a crisis. I think that they aremost recognising that there is a problem; a problem manifesting itself in a decline in thoseseeking to go into teaching. There is potential, therefore, for a spiralling downwards. I amsure that Mr Home will make further comment.

Mr Home—I would certainly concede that there is a recognition that there is aproblem. I do not think we would say that there is a crisis. There is a problem that weneed to address. It is a highly complex problem for which people often come up with verysimplistic solutions. You will note from the newspaper which you are reading that, on thepage after the work of this committee is reported and the concern raised about the role ofthe education department, a letter to the editor blames teachers for the lack of quality inour schools. Allocating blame on such a simplistic basis is certainly not something that weagree with.

It is a multifaceted, highly complex problem which has its origins in a lot of socialand other factors. There is clearly a challenge to departments like ours to come to gripswith it. That challenge rests equally with the profession itself, it rests with the professionalassociations and it rests with the teachers union. We are certainly in a dialogue with themto try to address some of these things.

Senator CARR—I am interested that you see this in the context of a letter thatblames teaches for their poor morale. It strikes me that it is the wrong end of the stick onthis matter. If we are actually looking at responsibility, what would you say is theresponsibility of employers, that is, the department, for what it says here and according tothe survey of evidence we heard yesterday—a survey of teachers at Mount Lawley? Of



course, it is reflected by other schools we have heard from, such as Hollywood. It saysthat a deep and abiding malaise appears to have developed within the teacher service inthis state. What responsibility do you, as a department, as employers, have for thatcondition?

Mr Home—I want to make two initial points. I certainly was not using that letterto indicate that the responsibility is the responsibility of teachers. I merely referred to thatto indicate that members of the community blame the department, blame teachers; theteachers blame the department, blame the community. There is no single and fair sheetinghome of responsibility in the way that that letter seeks to do. In relation to thesubmissions that were put yesterday, I do not necessarily accept that four teachers fromMount Lawley are representative of the entire teaching profession either.

I do accept that the department has a responsibility as an employer to try tomaintain the morale and commitment of its work force. Doing that when the expectationsof the community, parents, governments and so forth increase exponentially is a difficulty.But certainly there is a whole range of factors which an employer does have responsibilityfor and which impacts on the morale and motivation of teachers.Some of those factors canbe ameliorated; others perhaps cannot. The expectations of the community, the changes intechnology, the social changes and so forth in the teaching profession are things theeducation system has to deal with and run with like any other organisation and any otherprofession. But certainly I accept that there is a responsibility. I do not accept that it is‘the’ responsibility solely of the education department or the employer.

Senator CARR—A good deal of research has come before this committee fromvarious submissions which suggests, and there is academic writing which suggests, thatthere has been a move away from education as a priority of government, that there hasbeen a downgrading of education as an priority of governments since the early 1990s. Asa consequence there has been a sharp deterioration in conditions in schools as a result ofthe withdrawal of funding or the reduction in government resourcing of education. I am ata bit of a loss, because I do not think we got a submission from the department. Is it thecase that we did not get a submission from the department?

Mr Home—No, the submission of the government came through.

Senator CARR—But the department itself did not put in a submission?

Mr Home—No.

Senator CARR—I was wondering if you could assist me in getting some basicfactual information on the situation in this state. What is the average age of the teachingprofessionals in the state now?

Mr Home—I might have to rely on Mr Purdy to provide that information.



Mr Purdy —It is 42.

Senator CARR—So it is slightly younger than other parts of the country. Howmany teachers do you have?

Mr Purdy —It depends if you count relief teachers. Are you talking about thegovernment sector or the whole sector?

Senator CARR—In the public sector, how many are there?

Mr Purdy —Approximately 20,000 or so.

Senator CARR—That includes early childhood teachers in this state, doesn’t it?

Mr Purdy —Indeed.

Senator CARR—Your state is distinguished from other states in the sense that youhave a different component, is that correct? Are there any other features that distinguishthis state from other states in terms of the profile of its teaching service?

Mr Home—Not to my knowledge, Senator.

Senator CARR—Are you able to indicate to us what the change has been in classstudent-teacher ratios since 1992? Has there been a movement upwards or backwards?

Mr Home—I do not have that information at my disposal.

Dr Reeves—No change.

Senator CARR—No change at all, I see. Has there been an increase in studentnumbers in this state?

Mr Home—I understand student enrolments have increased.

Senator CARR—Have teacher numbers increased proportionately?

Mr Home—The staffing of schools is based on enrolments, so with increasedenrolments teaching is increased.

Senator CARR—I have information here that there has actually been a decline inthe secondary student-teacher ratio. You are saying that that is not the case. It has actuallyremained constant, has it?

Mr Purdy —Across the whole sector.



Senator CARR—Across the whole sector. I am told that it has remained the sameonly in the primary divisions. You are saying that, if you even that out, it works out aboutthe same at 15.8 average student-teacher ratio. Can you verify that figure?

Mr Home—I cannot verify that for you, Senator. I will certainly undertake to getconfirmation of that for you.

Senator CARR—Thank you, if you could please. Given that there is a differencebetween early childhood calculation in this state, I wonder what impact that has on it. Ipresume the class sizes for early childhood would be much smaller; would that be thecase? Does that have an effect on the distribution of student-teacher ratios? What is theaverage class size?

Dr Reeves—We have limits on class sizes in early childhood.

Senator CARR—What is that limit?

Dr Reeves—It is 27 or 25 depending on the size of the building. If they are four-year-olds, the limit is 20. The early childhood sector is staffed with its own establishmentas well.

Senator CARR—Does that distort the figures? Does it have an effect on theoverall figures?

Dr Reeves—No, not for the secondary area.

Senator CARR—Isn’t the average class size in the secondary area 32? Is thatcorrect?

Dr Reeves—Maximum class size, not average.

Mr Ward —Maximum.

Senator CARR—Under your industrial agreements it is 32. What is it in theprimary division?

Mr Ward —For years 3 to 7, maximum 32, and 31 to mixed years; for years 1 to2, maximum 30 and 29 to mixed years.

Dr Reeves—The maximum is 32.

Senator CARR—So it is much smaller in that section. I was wondering whetherthat has an impact on the overall distribution of the student-teacher ratios in this state?Can you take that on notice?



Dr Reeves—Yes.

Senator CARR—What is the percentage of education expenditure of the totalbudget; has that varied over the last five years?

Mr Browne —I am of the understanding that it has increased.

Senator CARR—So you are saying it is not true that the resourcing of educationin this state has actually declined?

Mr Home—Not to my understanding. It obviously depends on which time frameyou are looking within. The funding of education has increased and decreased from yearto year. But I understand the long-term indicator would be that it has increased.

Senator CARR—How long term are we looking at?

Mr Home—Certainly to my understanding—I do not have the figures but I canprovide those as well—although it has varied from year to year over the last five years,the expenditure on education has increased. Certainly I am aware that capital worksexpenditure in particular has increased over that period.

Senator CARR—Would this be because of the growth in the population in thisstate; I mean, has it increased per capita?

Mr Home—I would have to take that on notice as well.

Senator CARR—Because that is my understanding. I notice here there is a verysmall increase per capita by comparison with other states, but it is not in fact a very bigincrease. In your judgment, is there a factor or relationship between decline in morale anddecline in resourcing?

Mr Browne —Mr Chair, I wonder if I may take the opportunity of examining theissue of morale on a broader front. Can I respectfully do that?

CHAIR —Away you go, Mr Browne.

Senator CARR—I would also appreciate an answer to my proposition because Ido think it is quite an important issue.

Mr Browne —My view is that the relationship between resourcing and the declinein morale is very limited, and it relates far more to wider societal problems. I believe thereare two elements to morale. The first element is the manner in which a teacher perceiveshimself or herself and the second element is the way in which the society perceives theteacher. The second clearly impinges upon the first.



Society today respects those who can achieve the objectives that society sets for itbut, regrettably, the objectives that the society is setting for teachers in Western Australia,as elsewhere, are almost impossible. With a doctor, a doctor is set the challenge by societyof diagnosis and resolving a patient’s illness, but it is not a moving feast as it is with ateacher. An accountant is required to do your taxation and surely they can do it, but it is afar less moving feast than the challenges put before a teacher.

A teacher today is expected to manage the change in society’s values, and neverbefore in our society have those changes been more fluid than they are today. A teacher isrequired to operate these days in a far less ordered world. It is not unexpected that attimes the IT knowledge with which a child starts school today exceeds the IT knowledgeof the teacher teaching that child.

CHAIR —That is a very elegant way of putting it, Mr Browne—very often it is farsuperior. Let us be factual. Thank you, Mr Browne.

Mr Browne —Thank you, Senator. I smile because I am relating this to thetraditional setting of immediately turning to your children when you want to recordsomething on the VCR.

There are some huge anomalies existing in the expectations that we have ofteachers. We are expecting a teacher of today to be the facilitator of an educational systembased on problem solving; we are expecting a teacher of today to be the facilitator ofstudent centred learning; we are expecting a teacher of today to be the facilitator ofchallenge. Hence, in effect we are helping to create a whole society of children whochallenge at every turn, and teachers are being challenged at every turn. Their life is madeno easier.

The comment I will conclude with is that I think a far greater solution will befound in the status of teaching in Western Australia rather than in any dramatic increase inresourcing. Goodness knows what level of resourcing is going to be the benchmark whenmorale turns upwards purely because of resourcing. I think a far greater impact would beregulation by the profession of the profession, as occurs in so many other professions. Iwould hope that the centre for excellence and other moves that may occur in WesternAustralia will play a far greater role.

Senator CARR—If there is a greater demand on teachers and their job is moredifficult, surely that is an argument for additional resources.

Mr Browne —In part I would agree with that and I am not seeking to get into anargument with you. That, on the face of it, is an argument one could not argue with. Butdoes resourcing allow a teacher to better manage the fluidity of society’s values? I thinknot.



Senator CARR—If he or she has less students in the class, greater assistance withsupport staff in terms of special needs, greater support in terms of facilities provided bythe department through regional support centres and all the other functions that thedepartments around this country used to provide, then the job of the teacher would beeasier.

Mr Browne —Without doubt. However, for every paper one can find saying that areduced number of students in a class improves learning, you can find an overall numberof papers saying that it does not.

Senator CARR—Research has been brought to our attention that argues about thebenefits of smaller class sizes. Have you done some work on that? Are you able to pointto the deficiencies of that research?

Mr Home—We will be shortly. The department has commissioned a report fromsome consultants on this very issue—the effect of class sizes on learning. That report isexpected to be handed to us on 9 October.

Senator CARR—Could we get a copy of that?

Mr Home—After which time we would be quite happy to pass it on to thecommittee.

Senator CARR—It has been mentioned that teachers should be more autonomousand perhaps be in more control of the profession themselves. Two points relate to that: isit the department’s view that there is an inherent inconsistency with the managementprerogatives that you require as employers and that of the demands of professionalautonomy; and, secondly, given your support for greater regulation of the industry byteachers, does the government of Western Australia support the registration of teachersand, in particular, the national registration of all teachers?

Mr Home—I cannot speak on behalf of the government in respect of the latterquestion. I can indicate that the issue of registration is something that we are givingconsideration to at the moment. I am aware of recent moves in other states, particularly inNew South Wales, and we are studying that. But as to the view of the government, Icannot give a signal on that.

CHAIR —What is the department’s view, Mr Home?

Mr Home—The department certainly sees some value in a system of registration.We do not see it as being a cure-all—as some others do—to a whole range of otherproblems. But in terms of being able to properly monitor the professionalism and thesuitability to teach of certain people and so forth, we have certainly centred in the contextof the New South Wales royal commission—



CHAIR —We are actually talking about whether a teacher registration board mightalso filter paedophiles, et cetera.

Mr Home—Yes, so certainly there are some advantages.

Senator CARR—A broader issue rather than a professional development issue.

Mr Home—No. What I was saying is that we certainly saw some attraction toregistration in dealing with some of those law and order problems. But we also see itbeing potentially useful towards, as Mr Browne indicated, the profession regulating andmonitoring itself, considering its needs and maybe being able to meet those needs better.

CHAIR —We have a terribly tight schedule this morning. I hate to cut you off, MrHome, but I do want to ask Senators Troeth and Allison to put some questions. If I couldjust move it along a little because I think we have another set of witnesses at 10.15 a.m.

Senator TROETH—I want to ask you about the downward movement of thetertiary scores to get teachers into the system. Obviously, this must be a matter of concernto you. With the supply of teachers going down and an anticipated shortage, how farwould you anticipate the dropping of tertiary scores would go in an attempt to get morestudents into the teaching service from WA?

Ms Reynolds—I think that the universities would be reluctant to drop muchfurther. They would be looking to mature age people.

Can I just correct a statement I made earlier about the entrance scores being amoving feast. I just note that in the table of trends I have adjusted the 1997 figuresupwards.

Senator TROETH—Yes, I do see that. What will you do if you cannot getsufficient teachers from WA? You obviously do not see it as a good public relationsexercise to be recruiting teachers from overseas.

Ms Reynolds—It is not just that it is not a good public relations exercise. I thinkthat there are concerns that people come across, have a year’s holiday and go back towhere they came from.

Senator TROETH—I think you said that schools in the northern part of the statewere largely staffed by teachers from Victoria and South Australia. Is that what you see asthe basis of the staffing?

Mrs Jackson—I made that comment. I think that that is linked to a provision thatis available to have secondment from their school for a period of, say, three years and goback to the position that they held before.



Senator TROETH—So that is not included in that?

Mrs Jackson—No.

Senator TROETH—Do you imagine that there would be sufficient recruits in themature age sector to provide you with the teachers that you need?

Ms Reynolds—As long as teaching is seen to be a desirable profession. If therewas industrial strife or some other reason, such as a lot of publicity about violence inschools, those sorts of things put people off.

Senator TROETH—I also wanted to ask you about the rural and remote position.I have noted in the submission that we have from the group that the department currentlyoffers a remote teacher package providing teachers with salary increases and otherincentives. Does that provide the department with the staff it needs for those areas?

Mr Home—Yes, Senator, that has been a particularly successful, albeit quiteexpensive, exercise. We had substantial problems in trying to attract people to the remoteschools. In terms of remote, we mean genuinely remote—Aboriginal communities in themain. We have had little difficulty in staffing those schools since the new package twoyears ago for the remote teaching service.

We have actually established a remote teaching service, so it is a separate entitywith separate conditions that attach. Teachers moving to those locations have additionalsalary benefits; they accrue leave at a much greater rate; and they have certain guaranteesin terms of being able to move to other locations after they have served a period of timewithin those communities. It has been extremely successful. The difficulty it gives rise tois that we still have some difficulty in attracting staff to those isolated schools that are notdeemed remote.

Senator TROETH—So they are seen as betwixt and between?

Mr Home—Yes.

Senator TROETH—And with those packages, what would the average length ofstay be? Are teachers bound to stay for a certain time?

Mr Home—The main benefits accrue after three years. Most people have beenstaying that period of time. We obviously have some teachers who enjoy that work andstay—and they did stay before that package in any event. It is too early yet to see what itis going to do to our turnover, because the package has been in place for only two years.But at the very least I think it is going to ensure an average stay of probably three years,whereas prior to this package the turnover was extremely high.



I make a point in respect of the question you asked Ms Jackson. We do not recruitfrom other states for our remote teaching service in the way that she was indicatinghappens with the independent schools. We generally staff those from within our existingpool.

Senator TROETH—What is the housing situation for those teachers in thoseareas? We did receive some comments yesterday about the standard of housing.

Mr Home—I am aware that it is a concern to teachers. It is certainly a concern tothe department. I would need to indicate that this comes back to the issue of funding.Building a house in one of those communities is incredibly expensive. I think $260,000 isthe figure I was quoted for a three-bedroom house by someone in our department. That iswhat it costs us to build a house in one of those communities. It is getting the materialsand the—

Senator CARR—Transport costs?

Mr Home—transport costs of getting people out there, and the allowances thatbuilders and their labourers have to be paid.

CHAIR —Do you ever do deals or partnerships with the mining companies?

Mr Home—We are somewhat constrained by government policy and being agovernment agency in terms of what we can do with housing. But we are certainly fairlyactively lobbying to get greater flexibility into the arrangements we have for housing.

CHAIR —Would you take this on notice?

Mr Home—Yes.

CHAIR —And could you provide the committee with information about what isrestrictive in what you can do? Are you referring to law or laws in the housing area, in theeducation area, in the mining area or what?

Mr Home—I can indicate that there is a government employees housing authoritywhich has responsibility in the main for the housing of government employees. It hasfunds allocated to it. It has to determine priorities. We are certainly its biggest customer.But we sometimes have difficulty getting housing in particular locations because there isinadequate housing. The requirements to go through the authority and some of the rulesand funding constraints that it is bound by obviously limit what we can do. We have tooperate within a budget; they have to operate within a budget. We talk fairly closely withthem.

I certainly would not say there is a crisis of any sort in housing. We do have an



ongoing problem, though, in maintaining quality of housing. It has been put to us thathousing in some areas is inadequate. We are examining putting more bedrooms on houses.People are saying three-bedroom houses are sometimes inadequate if someone is going upthere with a large family. We have also had the situation—

CHAIR —Three teachers in a three-bedroom house? One bedroom each; if you arelucky you get the big one?

Mr Home—We have, in some locations, gone towards building units so thatteachers have got some independence and privacy. It is more expensive. Clearly, with thefunding situation there is a limit on how far we can go with that. But we are looking totry to open up greater avenues to get housing into various communities, such as jointventures with private investors and with local communities. I am aware that my ministerhas written to the minister for housing seeking to engage in a dialogue and a debate aboutsome greater flexibility to make these things happen, because there is a need that needs tobe met.

Senator TROETH—Is it standard for the government housing authority to providehousing for government employees in Western Australia who are located in those areas?

Mr Home—Yes.

Senator TROETH—Okay.

Mr Browne —I want to very quickly make the point—this relates back to whatSenator Carr said—that when we talk about the funding of education in Western Australiaright across the board, both in government and non-government sectors, we have to factorin the demography of Western Australia.

Senator TROETH—Yes, I do understand that.

Mr Browne —It is an area of 2.5 million square kilometres. With some of theremote schools that Mrs Jackson’s Association of Independent Schools of WesternAustralia has—the same with the education department—you can drive for six or eighthours and not see anybody. With some you fly for three hours before you come acrossthem, and then you will just find a little circle in the desert. They are expected to bestaffed either by the government or non-government sector. Seventy-three per cent of ourpopulation exists in Perth, and therefore the per capita funding of education in WesternAustralia, both non-government and government, is extremely expensive for those areas.

Senator TROETH—Thank you.

Senator ALLISON—I think it might be useful for us to put to you some of thecriticisms of the department yesterday by the teachers who came before us. They were



very critical of the department’s role in morale. I will put to you a couple of the thingsthat were said. They felt the level of violence was not adequately dealt with by yourdepartment. They felt that where violence existed, and where there were serious caseseven, the department tended to sheet the blame home on teachers rather than deal with theproblem. In relation to that, I wonder whether you are considering making it compulsorythat violent acts be reported.

A number of teachers came yesterday, independently, with what they described asthe winter collection, which was a series of documents. They were all expected to readthem, and I think most of them were dated July. They said that the pace of change was sodramatic that they simply could not keep up with it. They were not able to read all of thisdocumentation and do the work they were doing as well. I might let you respond to that,and then I will come to you with a couple of other points as well.

Mr Home—I will address those questions as best I can, Senator. We are awarethat the level of violence is a concern that has been raised by teachers, but we haveprocesses in place which we are confident should deal with those problems in the main.Where there are situations in schools or troublesome students, there are a range of supportservices that are available to teachers.

Senator ALLISON—We were told that one psychologist was made available for2,000 students. Is that what you are referring to?

Mr Home—I think the ratio is less than that, but I have heard that figure used.

CHAIR —Mr Home, if it is 2,000 or 1,500, it does not matter. What the teacherswere telling us yesterday absolutely was they felt that, firstly, the structures from thedepartment were anything but adequate and, secondly, the department did not back themup. One teacher said to us, ‘Look, I have had my car stolen five times. I have been spaton and physically hit. When I rang the department and said, "I expect to be killed." Thedepartment officer said, "Oh, yes, we expect a teacher might be killed soon too."’ That isa quote, but this means that the department is not meeting their needs. We might haveheard yesterday about the only 10 difficulties in Western Australia—but we did not getthat impression, did we, Senator?

Mr Home—It is difficult to respond, Senator, without knowing the actual detail ofthe particular case. Anecdotes like that might create a misleading impression as to thestate of our schools.

Senator ALLISON—Can we ask you specifically, if a teacher’s car is stolen, whatrecompense is available from the department?

Mr Home—I would have to take that on notice, unless someone else here is in aposition to answer that, Senator.



Mr Ward —My understanding is that, if the car were stolen, it would be a civilmatter. It would be a matter dealt with through the civil courts and through their insuranceat that stage.

CHAIR —And if their personal property were stolen while the school?

Mr Home—Again, I will have to take that question on notice.

Senator ALLISON—So, in other words, the department does not play a role in theprotection of teachers’ property?

Mr Home—There are policies, but I am not in a position to detail them for youhere in respect of when claims are able to be made and on what basis. I can have thatprovided.

Mr Ward —Could I just respond in regard to the teacher who was in danger. Wehad a particular situation recently—it did not necessarily involve a classroom situation, butit was within an isolated community—and when that was brought to our notice, we movedthat teacher within two days for their own safety. We act quickly when those issues arebrought to our attention through the district offices.

Senator ALLISON—One of the teachers yesterday said that she was in a schoolwith difficult students. She was required to stay there for a full three years because shenegotiated to do that as part of some sort of promotion system. She was not given thatoption.

Mr Ward —We manage those cases on a case by case role. When particular issuesare brought to our attention and they are circumstances which are going to result to thedetriment of the individual in staying within that particular situation, then in managingthose cases we then put processes into place where—if it has come to that situation andthe person is no longer able to function or they are feeling to an extent that for their ownhealth reasons they need to be moved—we move that person to a more suitable location.

Senator CARR—With a compassionate transfer?

Mr Ward —Yes, there are compassionate transfers and transfers for medicalconditions and when siblings and things like that are involved.

Senator ALLISON—Are there many schools that are particularly difficult in thissense and from which you have to transfer teachers away from on a regular basis?

Mr Ward —I would not say that there is one particular school.

CHAIR —Are there 10? Are there 20? Everybody else in Western Australia says



that there are some school areas that are dreadful. Does the department know this, MrWard, or is the department being discreet? Come on, Mr Ward. Do not name them, justacknowledge that there are such schools if that is what the department knows.

Mr Ward —There are difficulties in staffing some schools and that is not onlyrelated to the students but also related to the location of the school and the lifestylespeople want to take up. It is individual choice which comes into play.

Mr Home—There is an issue that I think needs to be touched on in relation tocompassionate transfers. We do effect compassionate transfers and we look at them caseby case. The transfer system and the rights of individuals to transfer are very highlyprotected by teachers. The teachers themselves do not like people jumping the queue toget to a more favourable location. So we have to balance the fact that teachers expect thatthey have built up enough points to warrant getting back into a comfortable or nice leafywestern suburb school with other people who believe that they need to be transferred out.We have to exercise a judgment on that. Where we believe there is a genuinelycompassionate basis for someone to move then we will move them.

CHAIR —I think Senator Allison’s question was: are there many schools that youknow are problem ones?

Mr Home—There are clearly schools that are tougher than others.

CHAIR —But there are few in the eastern suburbs?

Mr Home—I do not know that there are any that we would say were in any formof crisis. We resource schools that have a lower socioeconomic representation than othersmore generously than others.

Senator ALLISON—In what way is it more generous? Are there smaller classsizes?

Mr Home—Yes, we provide more teachers—

Senator ALLISON—So you would not have 32 students in a class in one suchschool?

Mr Home—The class sizes themselves are the same, but the access to aides andother support and the number of teachers in the school are greater. A principal has thediscretion and the ability within that greater number of staff to structure the class sizes ashe or she thinks necessary. The principal has the ability, particularly within the newstaffing formula that we have put into place for next year, to manage the pool of staff thatthe school is entitled to in a way that will hopefully deal with, say, a particularly difficultage group or so forth.



Senator ALLISON—For instance, how many extra teachers would a school of1,200 students get in a designated tougher area?

Mr Home—I do not have the excel spread sheet that that all sits on. I would notbe able to answer that.

Senator ALLISON—Is it one or 15?

Mr Home—I honestly could not say.

Dr Reeves—I was also a district superintendent. If you are talking about a highschool that has about 1,200 students and the ratio between the teachers who are actually infront of the class and the support mechanism that is behind them in terms of studentservices and administrative support, I point out that in my school there were at least 30FTE in addition to the actual classroom teachers who were there in that kind of supportrole. Some were psychologists, year coordinators, student service teams—

Senator CARR—Were they specific to that school?

Dr Reeves—Yes.

Senator CARR—So there were 30 additional staff?

Dr Reeves—Yes, if you took everybody who had time off to support teachers inthe classroom. There are a large number of in-school support services in a school of thatsize.

CHAIR —Is it still the case?

Dr Reeves—It is still very much the case.

Senator CARR—In terms of the establishment of that school would it be 60 plus30, that sort of thing?

Dr Reeves—Yes, or 80 plus 30. It would be that kind of ratio. Besides your in-school support you have your district support. They might talk about psychologists for2,000 students but backing that psychologist are a range of other people—welfare officersand so on. There is a lot of additional support for the teacher who feels threatened. Thereis in-school support and district support before there is central support.

Senator ALLISON—I wonder whether the department has done a profile ofteachers in this state. We know what the average age is, but are greater numbers ofteachers leaving the profession at an earlier age than in the past? Given that there is alikely shortage, is there any effort to try to redress that, to halt the rate at which teachers



are leaving?

Mr Home—On the contrary, our exit rate is incredibly low. Two per cent is ourcurrent exit rate. That presents us with some difficulties in terms of having placements forgraduates. So there is no evidence to suggest that there is a mass exodus from the teachingprofession at the moment.

Senator ALLISON—As to career paths for teachers, we heard yesterday that 300teachers were selected for some sort of promotional status on the basis of skills in theclassroom. The criticism of that was that it then became very much a competition betweenteachers to win that award, if you like, and it did not acknowledge that there were moreteachers who would qualify for that status. What will happen next year? Will there beanother 300 teachers selected next year? What is the actual number of teachers whodeserve that reward?

Mr Home—The issue of teaching career paths is one that we have expendedconsiderable resources on in recent years. Only two years ago we removed the two- andthree-year training barrier, meaning that teachers who had two- and three-year trainingcould move to the top of the teacher scale. That has cost an extraordinary amount ofmoney, but that was in recognition of the fact that those people were competent,professional teachers, notwithstanding the number of years of training they had had. Thatwas a substantial investment.

Over recent years we have had advanced skills teachers, senior teachers, keyteachers. What has happened in some instances is that, as with the advanced skills teacher,in effect it has just become an additional salary point on top of the teaching scale. At themoment we are working through a new career structure for teachers, but the status ofsome of those other forms of specialist or partially administrative teachers, if you like,needs to be wrapped up in that whole consideration. We are certainly in dispute with theteachers union about the new role of key teacher, about how many there will be. We areseeking to make that career path one that is based on competencies. But there are a lot ofcomplexities to that. We have limited to 300 the number of people who would qualifynext year.

CHAIR —I have to intrude here. I am very sorry, but we are now running overtime. There are two pages of questions here, some of which have been asked by some ofmy colleagues. I will quickly run through these questions; perhaps you would care tocomment on them on notice. We do not want another thesis or 10-page report; dot pointswould be fine. All these questions and the copies ofHansardwill be sent to you. Not onlycan you read whether your own words glow, but also you can read what was saidyesterday. You may indeed respond in your remarks to what was said yesterday. I willnow put the questions on the record.

How do you describe the current status of teachers? Is the current status of teachers



of concern to the government? Has the government undertaken any specific measures toraise either the morale or status for teachers? If you could give us some baseline data onteachers’ salaries, qualifications required, et cetera, that would be very useful to thecommittee. It would be very useful to know about departmental funding for education overthe last few years.

We have heard about violence. We understand that the reporting of violentincidents is not compulsory. What processes do apply? Would you care to make suchreporting compulsory? How are teachers supported if they are victims of physical orverbal violence?

What are the current government’s views on both state registration and a nationalteachers’ registration? I think you have pretty much dealt with that, so you may not wishto add anything further, but you might. You did give us the department’s view. We wouldwelcome comment from you too, Mr Browne.

How has the process of devolution been handled in Western Australia? Whatsupports have been given to schools in terms of professional development? Many teachersin all parts of Australia are critical about the lack of career path. Is this an issue? Again,maybe you would say that we have dealt with that.

What professional development entitlements and obligations do teachers have inWestern Australia? What impact has the cessation of the NPDP had on the provision ofprofessional development? What incentives are in place to encourage teachers to remoteand rural areas?

What support is given to graduates who are sent to rural areas for their firstpostings? What percentage of new teachers get out in their first year? What inductionprocess exists for newly appointed teachers and what about teachers returning after someyears absence from education?

Can you provide detail on the percentage of teachers who have permanent status?Has this proportion changed in recent years? We understand a ministerial task force in1990 reported on the condition and status of teachers in Western Australian governmentschools. Would it be possible for the committee to have a copy of that report? Whichrecommendations have been implemented?

What input does the department have into the content and length of teachereducation programs? As the main employer of teachers in this state, how satisfied are youwith the quality of graduates of recent years? Do you agree that the increased number ofwomen teachers, if that is a fact, is contributing to the lower status of teachers—that is,what we have referred to as the feminisation of education?

Senator CARR—Could you advise the committee on what you think the



Commonwealth could do to assist to improve the status of teaching across Australia,particularly in Western Australia—what professional development programs, capital worksprograms, those sorts of issues or others that you think are appropriate?

CHAIR —If you wanted to look at any other parts of theHansard, please ask. Wedo have excellent submissions from the Queensland and New South Wales governmentswho are acknowledging a crisis in the status of teachers. To the Independent SchoolsAssociation, can independent schools in Western Australia employ teachers withoutteaching qualifications?

Do you think there should be dress standards for teachers as well as students?These questions could be answered by all of you. Would this affect the level of respectstudents have for teachers? Do you consider lax or lack of disciplinary measures to be afactor in the level of respect for teachers? Are you aware of incidents of violence inschools towards teachers or other students?

To what degree, if at all, should parents be held responsible for student behaviour?What would you consider to be the basic rights of the teacher? How essential do you seethe push for vocational education and training in the school curriculum? It has beenargued that teachers have not done enough to publicly promote their professional status.Have you a comment on this?

Many people speak of the impact of societal changes on today’s learningenvironment. Would you like to address that point further? Specifically, how does thisrelate to the need for professional development of teachers? What changes should be madeto teacher training to prepare students for the increased social work demands of teaching?

Many teachers raised in a print based culture are having to work in an increasinglytechnological workplace, teaching high tech children in low tech schools. How does theemergence of the high tech medium impact upon curriculum and the method of teaching?How greatly do these changes that we have been discussing impact on the status ofteachers and their level of job satisfaction? How do we assist teachers to have acontinuous improvement mind-set needed to cope with the constant changes bombardingteachers?

We have also had ineffectiveness of professional development. Given currentbudgetary constraints nationwide, can you offer any alternatives? Are you involved in thenational schools network? Do you think teachers in independent schools have a higherstatus than those in government schools? Why do you think this is?

Do you know of any happy schools in Western Australia? Are any schools doing itwell? I am also pleased, for the record, to note that in this part of the world it is thewestern suburbs who are up and the eastern suburbs who are the downs, which is just notwhat we say on the other side of the country at all.



I do think it is important to note that you could get the sense that teaching is atotal disaster for everybody, that there are no schools providing happy children or happyteachers. Do you have any comments about the balance? What do you do with thenewspaper that you have today that tells nothing but one story piled on top of another thatonly create further the impression?

One of those so-called miserable teachers yesterday said that education is earningour country more export dollars than the sale of wheat but who acknowledges theteacher’s role in that great contribution to our country’s development. It is like there is asplit going on. Teachers are poison; they are not doing things; they are hopeless; the kidsare getting out of control; everything is terrible versus education is marvellous. There is areal split.

Does the government, either your section, Mr Browne, or the department, think thatif they put their mind to a much more geed-up and sexy promotion of education andteaching compared with last year’s modest little effort that maybe this might make adifference? The evidence from other states suggests that is so.

Senator ALLISON—I ask one quick question which you can take on notice: as Iunderstand it, in the remote schools there are many places where English is a secondlanguage, yet that is not acknowledged in Aboriginal communities. Often we have teachersgoing to these remote communities and finding that creole is spoken, which is a form ofpidgin, I understand. I ask you to add that to the question regarding what support there isfor rural and remote schools.

CHAIR —If there is any way in which the committee can assist any or all of you,please contact us. If there are ways in which we need more help from you—apart frommodest little dot point answers to all of those questions—we would appreciate youraffirmation that we can make further contact.

Mr Browne —Senator, on behalf of the Western Australian people and the schoolssector, thank you very much for your time.

CHAIR —Thank you very much.



[9.49 a.m.]

BOSICH, Ms Barbara Elaine, Senior Lecturer in Early Childhood Education, Facultyof Education, Curtin University of Technology, Kent Street, Bentley, WesternAustralia

SHORTLAND-JONES, Dr Bruce, Acting Dean and Co-ordinator of Pre-ServiceEducation, Faculty of Education, Curtin University of Technology, Kent Street,Bentley, Western Australia 6102

HARRISON, Professor Bernard Thomas, Dean, Faculty of Education, Edith CowanUniversity, Dean’s Office, Mount Lawley Campus, 2 Bradford Street, Mount Lawley,Western Australia 6050

CHAIR —I welcome the witnesses from the Edith Cowan University and CurtinUniversity of Technology. The committee prefers that all evidence be given in public, butshould you at any stage wish to give your evidence, part of your evidence or answers tospecific questions in camera, you may ask to do so and the committee will consider yourrequest. I point out, however, that evidence taken in camera may subsequently be madepublic by order of the Senate, as has happened over recent years. The committee hasbefore it submission Nos 175 and 203. Is there any other material which you would careto table at this stage?

Prof. Harrison—Not at this stage.

CHAIR —Would you like to make some introductory comments? Given that wehave 25 minutes, can I urge you to be brief. I hate to do that, especially as you have lotsof things we want to hear.

Prof. Harrison—I did submit to Mr Holmes 12 points, which may be in front ofyou, so I will not go through those in detail. I should briefly explain that, as dean ofeducation at Edith Cowan, I attended the Status of Teachers Conference back in May.That is what motivated me to make this submission and to come today.

I should inform you that, which may help to clarify or indeed mystify proceedings,I have a mainly UK background. I arrived here in February 1996. In the UK I was ateacher for 12 years and then a university lecturer. I did the professor and dean jobs at theUniversity of Sheffield. So I have some view of the UK background, if that is of interestto the committee.

I am also currently undertaking a major research program in collaboration with theWestern Australia Secondary Principals Association and Western Australia PrimaryPrincipals Association on the continuous professional development of teachers. I amlooking for a major ARC grant in 1998 to continue that very important work.



CHAIR —Thank you very much.

Dr Shortland-Jones—Firstly, can I give my apologies of the Dean, ProfessorOwen Watts, who submitted the proposal earlier. On behalf of the faculty, I want to raiseone point that we would like to speak to—preserving what we see as one of the majorstrengths of pre-service teacher education, and that is the relationship between theory andpractice, specifically professional practice.

We are extremely concerned that, with the financial restrictions at the moment, thewhole professional practice area is being called into question. Currently, it formsapproximately 20 per cent of our annual budget. We see, and everybody sees, extremevalue in professional practice, but, given the current funding problems, we are finding itdifficult to continue and, in fact, try to develop new approaches to professional practice.We would like that discussed at some point.

Ms Bosich—I work with early childhood people and coordinate the earlychildhood program within the faculty. Many of my tasks relate to working in schools withteachers. I go into schools when approached to work with them on specific projects. Isuppose it is from this relationship through the schools that I get to feel some of the issuesthat are there for the teachers.

Directly today I would like to address reference two in terms of the types of issuesthat teachers see. At a conference over the weekend I asked the question directly as toissues. The major issues for teachers are resourcing class sizes, the ratio between teachersand children and the feeling of being pushed in one direction to condensing the quality ofwhat is going on in schools and being pushed in other directions to increase thecurriculum delivery.

That is the nub of the issue from those teachers. That is the huge issue. They seetheir value as teachers being undermined because of these resourcing changes and thedifficulties. They say they could do the job a lot better with more resources. I wouldalways say to them that they need to look to their classroom practices as well. It is notonly a one sided affair.

The culture in schools at the moment is not one that promotes teachers feeling thatcontinual growth is a worthwhile thing to do. There is a mismatch between understandingabout administration and what goes on in the classroom. I do not think there is a lot oftalking done either between the classroom teacher and the principal, and that is a globalstatement. I certainly feel that teachers in Western Australia feel that there is them, whichis educators and the administrators at the central level, and there are us. I am very surethat that is a pervasive attitude across our schools.

Senator ALLISON—We heard from Murdoch University yesterday that teachercourses should in fact be longer. Rather than four years, they should be five years. What is



your view of that? Are teachers not getting enough training?

Prof. Harrison—I am not sure about that. Certainly, all educators would agree thatwe need to put a renewed emphasis on continuous professional development so that whena teacher moves into a school and a salaried post the work of developing that teacher doesnot stop there. I would qualify that by saying that there should be a period of probation inwhich perhaps higher education could be involved, and certainly a really dramaticallyrenewed emphasis on the fact that you take a long time to become an excellent teacher.You need a lot of support and it is going to continue right through your career, includingexperienced principals, because the task is changing so fast. That is where I think we needthe new direction and the new leadership.

Dr Shortland-Jones—We are comfortable with a four-year concurrent degree. Ithink across Australia we are looking at the graduate diploma and lengthening the graduatediploma concept to at least a two-year degree. The problem with a three-plus-two is thatthe majority of employers currently do not recognise it. We are very keen to look at theconcept of an intern year—some sort of relationship with the department or the employerin relation to an intern supported year; somewhere where there is ongoing professionaldevelopment to look at that introductory year for teachers. But we are comfortable with afour-year degree.

Ms Bosich—I would think lengthening that would not serve our purposes verywell at all. I do get a perception from students who go out in the schools. They come backand say, ‘The teachers did not believe what I had learned.’ It is said, ‘ You don’t takemuch notice of what they do at that university—this is the real world.’ In fact, there issometimes a great disjunction between the sorts of understandings that the students arecoming out with—which are current theory and practice—and some of the work that theyare doing in the schools.

The students themselves have this imbalance in understanding about what is thereal world in the schools and what is being talked about in the universities. I do not seethat as the university being theory bound at all, because we have very practical courses. Ithink there is something that is happening out there between universities and the schoolsthemselves. I see that as a real problem.

Regarding lengthening the year, what Professor Harrison has suggested is more ofa relationship over those last periods as really important and strengthening the fieldexperience program. Many teachers who have our students are really wonderfullysupportive and think it is the best thing that has happened to them because they get in-serviced along the way. There are other teachers who can really bring young teachers toquestion what they have been thinking about, perhaps in not the most appropriate ways.

Senator ALLISON—Professional development in this state has been described asad hoc. Would you agree with that? What is an ideal system of professional development?



Dr Shortland-Jones—I do not think it has been ad hoc in this state. I think theprofessional associations have stepped in and done a wonderful job. If you look at thestrengths of the science teachers association, the maths teachers association and theliteracy educators association, I think they have stepped in and done a wonderful job. TheNPDP, over the last three years, has really given a major impetus. I would like to seemore of a move towards encouraging teachers into more formal professional development,and that being recognised. That is done in the United States. That has great benefit for theschool system, for teachers and for the university system. I would not use the term ‘adhoc’. I think we have been very well served by professional development here in WesternAustralia.

Ms Bosich—There has been a strong history from EDWA in terms of the firststeps material. They have spent an awful lot of money in schools in Western Australia;every teacher has been in-serviced in literacy. That is four to five years ago, but that is anongoing process that teachers can—

CHAIR —It has not persuaded Minister Kemp apparently.

Dr Shortland-Jones—Definitely not.

Ms Bosich—Definitely not.

Prof. Harrison—I think you can always be better coordinated and the deans are inregular discussion with EDWA on how to do that. Those discussions could be sharpenedup, frankly. A little bit of impetus will not do any harm there to make sure that we reallydo coordinate and do not replicate programs, and make sure that we are deliveringprograms that are really relevant to the needs of the schools.

Senator CARR—The average teacher only stayed about five years in the service,so if you had a significant in-service program four or five years ago it may well be that asubstantial number of teachers could have left by now.

Prof. Harrison—That is very true. I think that underlines the importance ofcontinuous development, not only because teachers are often coming and going—theyoften come and go and come back again—but also because the actual context of educationis changing very dramatically. Certainly, since I arrived in Western Australia in February1996, we have witnessed considerable change and new directions already.

Senator ALLISON—Does the lowering of TER scores for teachers cause yousome concern? What measures should be taken to address that problem?

Dr Shortland-Jones—It is interesting. I have been tracking it in Western Australiawithin our institution for about 15 years. Our TEE scores here were going up and goingup over a five year period. It is only in the last three years that we have had a decline,



and it is predominantly due to the lack of students that are going through to TEE. Nowthere is a major competition within all universities across all subject areas for a smallerpool of students. That is a real concern to us. In this state they are looking at morescholarships for higher TEE—trying to do better advertising. We are still getting inundatedwith requests. At Curtin we have 450 first preferences for 130 places. We have lots ofstudents out there still indicating first preferences for teaching.

CHAIR —What is your TEE on the whole?

Dr Shortland-Jones—On the average? Our cut-offs were around 290 last year.

CHAIR —Of those 400 students who want to get in, are they all 290?

Dr Shortland-Jones—No, we would go the range from 420 down.

CHAIR —One at 420 and 150 at 290?

Dr Shortland-Jones—No.

Prof. Harrison—If you take a balcony view—

Dr Shortland-Jones—I would say it is a third. A third would be in the top, a thirdwould be in the middle, and then you would be looking—

CHAIR —Have you got any data on that? If you could provide it that would bereally useful.

Dr Shortland-Jones—If we can find it.

Prof. Harrison—Let us confess that we would like those to be higher. But this isa world issue and I think a lot of governments need to really take leadership ondeveloping what is called in my response a new professionalism for teachers, and to reallygo four square behind public expressions of belief and confidence in the profession andrigorous requirements for a new professional code. That, I think, is a framework in whichwe are going to attract intelligent and motivated people. I think we are already attractingintelligent and motivated people who happen to come from the lower socioeconomic areasusually. It is often the first person in a family to get a degree who moves into teaching. Itis the most accessible and understandable of the professions because they know whatteachers do.

I think that while we want to increase the TEE grades, we are much moreconcerned, of course, with the quality of outgoing students. If we are really makingrigorous assessments of what they are doing as they leave our universities, then I think wemight have a more accurate picture of the quality of our profession at the present.



Ms Bosich—Also I think you need to consider the mature age entrant. Many ofour graduates coming in do not go through the typical TEE stream. We are mostencouraging of mature age graduates to come into the profession. They usually are verygood scholars.

CHAIR —I am sorry, but due to pressure of time we will move on.

Senator TROETH—Professor Harrison, I was interested in your point 8, on page2 of your submission:

In every developed country, there is still a resistant core (about 20%) of students who seem to gainvery little from ten years or more of compulsory education . . . The newprofession must make newpolicies for co-ordinating with Health, Business and other Agencies, to remediate this great waste.

Very briefly, could you give us an idea of the strategies you would envisage for that tohappen.

Prof. Harrison—There are good examples of practice emerging very vigorouslywithin Australia. My second research prong at the moment is in retention and motivationof Aboriginal students. I was fortunate to get an ARC collaborative on this with EDWA.We are looking at schools that are successfully linking with health agencies, for instance,which is an absolutely essential component in doing anything effective on behalf ofAboriginal groups, and social agencies too. So the campaign against drink, the campaignto make sure you are doing something about middle ear disease, and education, all gohand in hand. Intelligent principals know this and are working very actively with thesepeople.

It is the same picture in the UK where you are looking at the plight of ethnicminorities or poor working-class children. Those schools that are intelligently networkingwith other agencies, that make sure these children are getting a decent breakfast, that theyget a wash, if necessary, when they get to school, are beginning to make an impact andbeginning to get whole families motivated on behalf of education. It links also with adultliteracy. I think that programs that are aimed at parents and whole families areincreasingly the ones that are gaining attention around the world and being noted assuccessful.

Senator TROETH—So to your knowledge is the department of education here inWestern Australia actively resourcing schools to carry out some of those programs?

Prof. Harrison—I would not know about degrees of resource but I certainly knowthat the Director-General has set her own example by touring the schools in the mid-westof Western Australia quite recently and has drawn attention to this kind of issue.

Senator TROETH—If you have any details on that, could you pass them on to



the committee?

Prof. Harrison—I would be delighted. I could also give recent researchdescriptions of good practice.

CHAIR —I would be pleased to hear also of any official or formal programs toengage the parents. I was rather pleased to hear you say that, Professor Harrison. It is astrong view of mine.

Senator ALLISON—One of the submissions—not from someone who has comeand presented before the committee—was from a teacher who actually bought breakfastfor his students out of his own pocket and then found when he spoke with his accountantthat that was not tax deductible. I just add that to what has been said.

Dr Shortland-Jones—It is a common practice of remote schools in particular thatteachers do that.

Prof. Harrison—And it is the principal who goes around school-bussing to get thekids in.

Ms Bosich—They can’t learn if they don’t eat—or wash sometimes; the teachersoften have changes of clothing as well.

CHAIR —Dr Shortland-Jones, you said that one of the real challenges for youruniversity or department is the squeeze on university funding and that that leads to a realpressure about whether or not you can maintain—let alone sustain—the professionaldevelopment and the experience in the classrooms. Can you add comments about whereyou anticipate that that will be next year and in three years time? If it should be requiredto be reduced, what impact do you think that will have on teacher training.

Dr Shortland-Jones—We will fight for it not to be reduced. We will fight tomaintain it. As a matter of fact, we have just increased it—but at a cost to us, because,given the relative funding model for the universities, professional practice is not built intothe index that we are funded on. Curtin adopts the Canberra funding ratio model and weare not given any additional allowances because we are a professional school withinhumanities, so we have to make do with the same funding model. But then the beliefsystem that we have is that it is the most valued part of most teacher education courses.All of our exit polls show that that is what students want—they want more professionalpractice. For us it is an increasing cost. The costs of paying teachers, paying schools,paying supervisors are going nowhere but up.

CHAIR —I have two questions I want to put to you, and they are almost on notice.One is a bit of a bee in my bonnet. If you are an academic in our universities, you getpromoted, by and large, on the number of research papers you write, not on your expertise



as a teacher. I am told that there is a hint of beginning to change this—at least in WesternAustralia. Could you tell us in dot point later on whether you think the status of teachingin our groves of academe contributes to lowering the status of teachers that this inquiry isinvestigating.

I am really interested in, for instance, how many departments in the university callon your expertise as training teachers to help their departmental staff teach better. Or isthat every teacher at Western Australian universities are perfect and the students never sayanything mean or nasty about them?

Dr Shortland-Jones—Curtin University is really recognising that and they havejust appointed a Deputy Vice-Chancellor of Teaching and Learning to be responsibleacross the whole university to improve that.

CHAIR —That is almost a de facto agreement with what I have said—that theuniversity now realises that their teaching is insufficient.

Dr Shortland-Jones—I am not sure whether they are recognising that teaching isinsufficient or whether they want to raise the status of it and make it a priority.

Senator CARR—What steps are being taken to ensure that all persons acting asteachers at university are in fact qualified with a relevant teaching qualification?

Dr Shortland-Jones—We currently offer a graduate diploma for universityteaching and have done for a number of years.

CHAIR —Does anyone take it?

Dr Shortland-Jones—We would have four to five per year enrolled in it.

Senator CARR—Why shouldn’t university teachers be required to take a teachingqualification, just as secondary teachers are required to take it, and TAFE teachers shouldbe required to take their equivalent—or their early childhood teachers are required to takeit?

Dr Shortland-Jones—We are working on it. There is no doubt that the emphasishas been on the academic record and background.

Ms Bosich—I think you have to be careful when talking about all universities andfaculties of education. People in faculties of education are all trained teachers with areasof expertise, so be careful to make that division.

CHAIR —Excluding the Department of Education.



Ms Bosich—Absolutely. The people in faculties of education are there becausethey are good teachers.

CHAIR —Well done, Ms Bosich!

Prof. Harrison—Just as you would want your medics to be professionallyqualified, it happens in faculties of education. I think universities have been taking this onboard. Certainly, there are university teaching awards. The Vice-Chancellor at EdithCowan takes a personal interest in this, and awards are going to be made next week. Ourfaculty bestows 12 teaching quality awards, too, which are very carefully selected.

We are at a great advantage in faculties of education. I am certainly absolutelyconfident that if you are providing grounded reflection on what you are teaching, then youare researching to your teaching, and that is exactly what a member of a faculty ofeducation should be doing.

I would be delighted if my own university followed the pattern of my previousone—which I hardly dare mention these days—where there was strong encouragement anduniversity financing to take a masters degree in staff and teaching development. This ledto very successful courses. They were very profitable for the faculty of education,incidentally. So we would be delighted if that happened.

CHAIR —We will no doubt see the literature persuading your colleagues to thiseffect in a very short while. I have one other question, and you may take it on notice. Wehave been told on a number of occasions that one contributing factor to the loweringstatus of teaching has been the so-called feminisation of it. That, now that more teachersare women then, like medicine in Russia or anything else you care to name, once thewomen do it, it drops. That is just the way of the world. Does your department reflectthis? Did you ever get any hint of this at all, Ms Bosich?

Ms Bosich—One does.

CHAIR —One does, or you do?

Ms Bosich—I do, yes. But I have strong beliefs about education, and the strongbeliefs do not go away, so I stick to my guns. But not all women feel comfortable indoing that. I believe that there are some teachers in schools who find it difficult to workin a male-female relationship with the administrator who has all the power.

CHAIR —That is one of the things which has been told to us, to the point wherewe are now finding people who say that we need more men to be encouraged intoteaching. For some centuries, girls went to school and were taught by women—if theywere lucky enough to go to school at all—and boys went to school and were taught bymen. It is interesting to see that we are now talking about trying to reflect a different



gender amongst the teachers. Do you agree that the gender of the teacher makes adifference? Should students be presented with both men and women teachers?

Dr Shortland-Jones—I do not believe that the gender of the teacher makes adifference, but I do believe that you have got to have appropriate models of both gendersin all schools. It is a concern for us, and it has been a concern for 15 years at CurtinUniversity. The calibre of men that we have been able to attract has been a problem. Thecalibre of the women is wonderful.

Ms Bosich—It is very unusual to have men in the lower end of the school. I havea young son who is in year 3 and, for the past two years, he has had two males. That isunheard of; it does not happen very often.

Prof. Harrison—We do need male role models throughout the schools. An equallyimportant truth is that the boys in schools need to be feminised to a degree, becauselanguage and literacy achievement amongst them is very worryingly low.

Senator CARR—We have substantial evidence coming in across the country thatteachers feel very strongly about the way in which politicians, particularly educationministers, in recent times, have taken to the denigration of those various teachers and theschools in which they serve. It has been put to us that teachers often feel defenceless andthat public schools remain largely unchampioned in the political debate about decliningresources for public education, particularly by the people who are running the systemdown yet who are charged with administering it.

Given that there seems to be a case put that, so often, politicians administeringpublic education in fact send their own children to private schools, and that they do notchoose to actually defend public education by personal experience, what impact do youbelieve that this sort of political process of denigration has had on the status of teaching?

Prof. Harrison—It is damaging. It is not as profoundly damaging as it was backin the UK where there was a whole social stratum that went into senior politics from avery small number of so-called public schools—they were really private schools. Herethere is a much wider spread and a much larger overlap, which I initially found verywelcome. I did not see all that much difference in philosophy and attitude between thetypical private school and the typical state school.

I think there has got to be very knowledgeable leadership from the top to reallyreaffirm belief in the public education sector, because a mixed economy and an advancedindustrialised civilisation such as ours has got to have that public sector educationcomponent as well as the private; it will never go completely private.

CHAIR —As there are no further comments, I would like to put on the record ourappreciation of you coping with the small amount of time made available to you. We have



not done justice to your contributions. If anything further crops up and the committeewould like to contact any or all of you, would you be prepared to offer furtherinformation?

Prof. Harrison—Yes.

CHAIR —The committee stands adjourned.

Committee adjourned at 10.16 a.m.


Documents

SENATE - Parliament of AustraliaHOME, Mr Stephen, Executive Director (Human Resources), Education Department of Western Australia, 151 Royal Street, East Perth, Western Australia 6004