SOUTHEAST ALASKA FEDERAL SUBSISTENCE REGIONAL … · 3/25/2020 · SOUTHEAST SUBSISTENCE RAC MEETING 2 3/25/2020 SOUTHEAST RAC MEETING 50 Computer Matrix, LLC 135 Christensen Dr.,

SOUTHEAST SUBSISTENCE RAC MEETING 2

3/25/2020 SOUTHEAST RAC MEETING

Computer Matrix, LLC 135 Christensen Dr., Ste. 2., Anch. AK 99501

Phone: 907-243-0668 Fax: 907-243-1473

SOUTHEAST ALASKA FEDERAL SUBSISTENCE REGIONAL ADVISORY COUNCIL MEETING

PUBLIC MEETING

VOLUME II

TELECONFERENCE - Alaska March 25, 2020 9:00 a.m.

COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT:

Donald Hernandez, Chair Larry Bemis Michael Douville Albert Howard Cathy Needham Harold Robbins Robert Schroeder Frank Wright John Yeager

Regional Council Coordinator, DeAnna Perry

Recorded and transcribed by:

Computer Matrix Court Reporters, LLC 135 Christensen Drive, Suite 2 Anchorage, AK 99501 907-227-5312/[email protected]

mailto:907-227-5312/[email protected]



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1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 3 (Teleconference - 3/25/2020) 4 5 (On record) 6 7 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Good morning 8 everybody on the Council and on the phone lines. We 9 will resume our meeting here at this time. And as

10 always, we begin the meeting each day with public 11 testimony, and it sounds like we've got a few folks 12 that want to testify this morning. We'll get everybody 13 lined up here in just a minute, but first I just want 14 to run down what I hope to go through today on the 15 agenda. 16 17 We will finish up new business. 18 19 We have one more presentation on a fish 20 monitoring project from Cathy Needham for Hetta. 21 22 And then we have an update on the whole 23 fisheries monitoring program update. 24 25 And then we do have one presentation -- 26 scientific presentation on ocean acidification and 27 impacts on Sitka South herring roe from Lauren Bell, 28 who's a PhD with the University of California at Santa 29 Cruz. We will get to that possibly this morning under 30 new business. 31 32 And then we get into our main business 33 of the meeting, which is action items, where we will 34 call for Federal fish and shellfish proposals. We'll 35 have a discussion on any proposals on Federal fisheries 36 management and we will also be talking about State 37 fisheries management proposals that could be put in to 38 the State Board of Fish from the Council if we decide 39 we want to do so. 40 41 We may get to our annual report by the 42 end of the day. We'll see how it goes. 43 44 So that's basically what we're going to 45 be doing today. 46 47 And now I'll go back to the phone lines 48 here and for the public testimony. I know from 49 yesterday that we had Sally Schlichting from SEACC



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1 wanted to testify. And I think I heard maybe a few 2 other people on the phone lines that may also want to

3 testify. I think I heard some folks from Hoonah.

4 Could you let us know at this time if you would like to

5 give public testimony. 6

7 MS. SAWERS: Yes. We're ready. 8

9 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. And how

10 many of you are there. 11

12 MS. SAWERS: There are two of us. 13

14 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. 15

16 MS. SAWERS: Two couldn't make it. 17

18 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. And now

19 I'll ask is there anybody else on the phone line who

20 would like to give public testimony this morning. 21

22 MS. GLOVER: I would also like to.

23 This is Kate Glover with Earth Justice. 24

25 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Kate Glover.

26 Okay. With Earth Justice. 27

28 MS. GLOVER: Yes. Thank you. 29

30 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Thank you. 31

32 Anybody else on the phone lines for

33 public testimony. 34

35 (No comments) 36

37 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: And I will check

38 again after we go through the first people that are

39 ready to go. 40

41 So now I..... 42

43 MS. PERRY: Mr. Chair. 44

45 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yes. Go ahead. 46

47 MS. PERRY: Just before we get started,

48 if you will, could I just go over a few housekeeping

49 announcements so that those folks who might be joining



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1 our meeting for the first day kind of know how we're 2 doing our telephone meeting. 3 4 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Sure. Go ahead, 5 DeAnna. 6 7 MS. PERRY: Okay. I just wanted to 8 remind everybody that, you know, this is a Regional 9 Advisory Council meeting by phone and we're trying to

10 do this as organized as possible since we can't see 11 each other and raise our hands, so when we have our 12 presentations or our information the speaker will stop 13 and the Chair will then ask each Council member by name 14 -- he'll just quickly go through the roster to make 15 sure that the Council members have an opportunity to 16 ask any questions if they would like. 17 18 And then as you've already heard, the 19 Chair will also call on the public and they will have 20 an opportunity to speak. Because we are trying to make 21 sure that we give the most opportunity for the public 22 to engage in this kind of forum the Chair will also 23 make a time for public comment after lunch as well. 24 25 To help troubleshoot any problems, I 26 know that the phone lines are a little overloaded and 27 people are having to try a few times to get in, let me 28 give you my email address. I am monitoring emails. 29 And that is deanna.perry, P, as in Paul, E-R-R-Y, 30 @usda.gov. And I can also receive texts on my cell 31 phone, which is (907) 209-7817. So if you're having a 32 problem getting in, please let me know so that I -- you 33 know, especially if you're a speaker so that we know 34 that we need to delay. 35 36 For those public who are joining us, I 37 wanted to let you know that the materials for this 38 meeting are on the website. Again, usually we have 39 books available at our meeting, but since we're doing 40 this virtual if you go to www.doi.gov/subsistence, 41 you'll pick the Region's tab. Hit Southeast and then 42 there you will see the agenda and also some of the 43 supplemental materials. And so I think that kind of 44 sets everybody up for materials and resources today. 45 46 Again, to keep down on the chatter, 47 folks who are you just listening in, if you could hit 48 star six or your mute button on your phone when you're 49 not speaking. And then of course you would need to do

http://www.doi.gov/subsistence



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1 star six or your mute button to come off of mute. That 2 really helps us with background noise and the court 3 reporter as well. 4 5 So I think that covers the basics. If 6 there are any questions, again please free to email me 7 or text me and we can try to take care of your needs. 8 9 Thank you.

10 11 And thank you for the time, Mr. Chair. 12 13 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Okay. 14 Thank you, DeAnna. Very helpful information. 15 16 REPORTER: Wait a second, Don, could I? 17 18 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yes. 19 20 REPORTER: Hi, this is Tina. So just 21 one more thing. If people could please identify 22 themselves by name when they break in, I would 23 appreciate that. 24 25 Thank you. 26 27 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Right. Right. 28 That's important for the record so that, yeah, Tina 29 knows who is speaking. 30 31 REPORTER: Okay. Go ahead. I know 32 most of the people by voice anymore but..... 33 34 (Laughter) 35 36 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. So back to 37 the folks who want to give public testimony. I don't 38 know if anybody's discussed who wants to go first. 39 40 MS. SCHLICHTING: This is Sally. I'm 41 happy to go first. 42 43 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Why don't 44 you go first, Sally. 45 46 MS. SCHLICHTING: Can you hear me all 47 okay. 48 49 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: I hear you fine.



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1 MS. SCHLICHTING: Okay. Good. All 2 right. Thank you, Chair Hernandez and good morning 3 Council members. My name is Sally Schlichting and I 4 serve as an environmental policy analyst with the 5 Southeast Alaska Conservation Council. Our 6 organization, representing more than 2,000 members 7 across 30 plus communities in Southeast Alaska, many of 8 whom are subsistence users is committed to ensuring 9 that the USDA follows proper consultation and public

10 involvement protocols with regard to NEPA and 11 rulemakings involving the Tongass National Forest. 12 This includes subsistence consultations required under 13 Section .810 of ANILCA. 14 15 Before going into our concerns 16 regarding subsistence consultation I would like to give 17 a brief overview of the wave of support for keeping 18 roadless protections on the Tongass during the 60-day 19 comment period last fall. During the comment period 20 over 2,600 SEACC supporters submitted comments to the 21 U.S. Forest Service in support of keeping Roadless Rule 22 protections on the Tongass. Collectively, the 23 conservation community's own count shows over 450,000 24 comment submissions. It wasn't just everyday 25 individuals who spoke out against the Trump 26 administration's preferred alternative fix, which would 27 exempt the 2001 Roadless Rule. 28 29 For the record, I have submitted a 30 comprehensive list of tribal and city government groups 31 representing the interests of tribes, veterans, 32 conservation voices, taxpayers, outdoor recreation 33 voices, and indigenous peoples, scientists, senators, 34 representatives, governors, city council members, 35 attorney generals, and businesses representing 36 commercial and sportfishing, small scale forestry, and 37 (indiscernible). 38 39 The Forest Service is reporting that 40 nearly 1,000 people total turned out at the 20 public 41 meetings across Southeast Alaska and the one in 42 Washington, D.C. We hope that U.S. Forest Service will 43 soon release the content analysis report with detailed 44 quantitative and qualitative summaries of the outcomes 45 from the written comments and public meetings and 46 subsistence hearings. 47 48 Lastly, during the Alaska Roadless Rule 49 making comment period media stories reflected broad



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1 support for keeping Roadless Rule protections on the 2 Tongass National Forest. For the record, please also 3 find a list of over 100 media stories published within 4 the 60-day comment period. And I believe these two 5 documents have been provided to you. 6 7 Returning to our concerns regarding 8 subsistence consultations required under Section .810 9 of ANILCA, which was discussed at some length

10 yesterday, and I would say that we generally agree with 11 what was discussed. Based on our analysis of the 12 proceedings that occurred during the Alaska Roadless 13 Rule making, we find that the U.S. Forest Service did 14 not follow its own policy under Forest Service Handbook 15 2090.23, which is also -- I have also provided that, 16 titled Subsistence Management and Uses Handbook, 17 chapter 10, components of an ANILCA Section .810 18 evaluation. Following this policy, the U.S. Forest 19 Service would conduct an evaluation of the expected 20 effect of the proposed action, consider the 21 availability of other lands for the purpose of the 22 proposed action, and evaluate other alternatives that 23 would reduce or eliminate the proposed action from 24 lands that are needed for subsistence purposes. For 25 the next step the agency would present a finding. A 26 finding will fall into one of two categories. One, the 27 U.S. Forest Service concludes that the action will not 28 result in a significant restriction of subsistence 29 uses, which concludes the Section .810, or two, there 30 is a significant possibility of a significant 31 restriction. If there is a significant possibility of 32 a significant restriction of subsistence uses, then 33 notice and a public hearing shall be held to present 34 the finding and take testimony. 35 36 While the U.S. Forest Service did 37 conduct subsistence hearings during the 60-day comment 38 period no finding was presented and no harvest data or 39 maps were provided in the draft EIS for the rulemaking. 40 This prevented subsistence users from being able to 41 identify location-specific impacts to hunting and 42 fishing areas. The U.S. Forest Service provided no 43 detailed information in the draft Environmental Impact 44 Statement concerning subsistence uses that could be 45 affected by lifting restrictions in roadless areas. 46 47 Instead the agency stated that -- and I 48 quote, "This EIS is programmatic, meaning that it 49 examines direction and allowable activities for broad



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1 land use areas rather than schedule specific activities 2 in specific locations. This makes it difficult to 3 evaluate the effects of the alternatives on particular 4 groups of subsistence users or resources. The 5 following discussion addresses potential impacts at the 6 programmatic or Forest scale and assesses relative 7 potential impacts in terms of overall proposed road 8 construction and timber management activities." 9

10 In our view, the U.S. Forest Service 11 has used the guise of a programmatic Environmental 12 Impact Statement as an excuse not to conduct a thorough 13 evaluation of the location-specific impacts to 14 subsistence that would result from a full exemption. 15 Instead the agency has concluded that if you view the 16 alternatives at the programmatic scale, "None of them 17 would directly limit the use of public lands for the 18 purposes of subsistence gathering activities." 19 20 If the agency had correctly followed 21 its process the final Environmental Impact Statement 22 would be able to include a subsistence determination 23 that is based on a thorough detailed analysis that 24 meaningfully considers the input of subsistence users. 25 26 SEACC therefore recommends that the 27 Council considers sending a letter to the Federal 28 Subsistence Board outlining the shortcomings in the 29 U.S. Forest Service's .810 process and request they 30 investigate how the process was carried out. In light 31 of the lack of harvested and detailed maps provided in 32 the draft EIS it also seems appropriate to include a 33 request that the U.S. Forest Service make a formal 34 finding and present it in a new round of subsistence 35 hearings so that stakeholder input can be properly 36 considered and incorporated in the final EIS. 37 38 Therefore, SEACC believes it would be 39 beneficial to copy Regional Forester Schmid, the 40 Roadless Rule planning team, the Department of Interior 41 Office of Subsistence, and the Commissioner of the 42 Alaska Department of Fish and Game. In addition, we 43 encourage you to seek meetings before May 2020 with the 44 Department of Interior and the U.S. Department of 45 Agriculture concerning this matter. 46 47 Thank you for the opportunity to 48 provide this testimony. 49



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1 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Thank you 2 very much, Sally. I will open it up to questions from 3 the Council members. I'm sure you're willing to take 4 some questions, Sally. 5 6 So I'll start at the top of the roster 7 list and ask if Frank Wright has any questions. 8 9 MR. WRIGHT: Yeah. I have one

10 question. Actually, a couple. 11 12 But, you know, I've gone through four 13 of these hearings and, you know, I've watched people 14 testifying, but there were plenty of people that were 15 sitting that did not testify. And what I was wondering 16 if there was anything showing who was against and who 17 was for. You know, because the one in Ketchikan I only 18 saw one person that was wanting to build roads. So is 19 there any statistics showing that. You know, the 20 number of people that were in the meeting were for or 21 against. 22 23 And in Hoonah we had plenty of people 24 that were wanting to keep it in place, you know, so I 25 was wondering if you had any kind of numbers like that. 26 27 MS. SCHLICHTING: I do not personally 28 have any of those numbers. I wasn't present at those 29 hearings, I would ask the Forest Service to provide in 30 their analysis of the comments and testimony that was 31 provided at those hearings. 32 33 MR. WRIGHT: Okay. Another one was 34 yesterday we were listening to a lady and she said, if 35 I'm correct and if I remember right, was that, you 36 know, it wasn't the Forest Service that was going to be 37 making the decision, it was someone from wherever, I 38 don't know. So I'm just -- I don't know who those 39 other people were that were said they were going to be 40 from somewhere else, you know, the Forest. I think I 41 heard her right that the Forest Service wasn't going to 42 make the decision on the record of decision or 43 something like that, so I'm curious if you have any 44 idea. 45 46 MS. SCHLICHTING: Yeah. That's what I 47 heard, too. That was from Nicole Grewe yesterday. And 48 what I heard her say was that this decision is being 49 made at the U.S. Department of Agriculture level.



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1 That's what I heard. 2 3 MR. WRIGHT: Yeah. Okay. 4 5 MS. SCHLICHTING: Correct. 6 7 MR. WRIGHT: So those people have no 8 idea what's going on. 9

10 Okay. Thank you. 11 12 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Thanks, 13 Frank. 14 15 How about Mike Douville. 16 17 MR. DOUVILLE: Thanks, Mr. Chairman. 18 This is Mike Douville. I don't have any questions 19 right now. However, I do agree with what she was 20 saying. 21 22 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Yeah. We 23 may come back as well because, you know, people may 24 have questions after hearing what other Council members 25 ask. 26 27 So Bob Schroeder. 28 29 MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Sally, for a 30 really excellent presentation and also for providing 31 the handout material which we were all sort of aware of 32 anecdotally the overwhelming opposition to the change 33 in the roadless bill, but it's very useful to see the 34 really extensive list of people who basically agree 35 with subsistence users in Southeast Alaska. 36 37 I'm hoping that you will be able to be 38 on the call or available for questions and for input as 39 the Council decides what we can do at this moment. We 40 feel a big hamstrung both because we can only act as a 41 Council when we're in an official meeting and also that 42 there really is not a comment period available right 43 now. Things are closed off. 44 45 If you have any comments on that. 46 47 Thanks much. 48 49 And we will no doubt call on you at a



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1 later time. 2 3 MS. SCHLICHTING: Council Member 4 Schroeder. Through the Chair. I am happy to be of any 5 assistance and be on the line if needed. 6 7 I do think that Ms. Grewe yesterday did 8 make it clear that there is an opportunity to elevate 9 these issues in the very near term, as soon as

10 possible, and so I think that, you know, you should 11 take that opportunity and we're happy to support you in 12 any way. 13 14 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Any other 15 follow-ups, Bob? 16 17 MR. SCHROEDER: No. That's it for me 18 at this moment. 19 20 Thank you. 21 22 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Albert. 23 24 MR. HOWARD: I don't have anything 25 right now. 26 27 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 28 29 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. I don't 30 think Ron Leighton was able to call in this morning. 31 32 Are you there, Ron? 33 34 (No comment) 35 36 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Apparently not. 37 38 How about Harold Robbins. 39 40 MR. ROBBINS: I have no questions at 41 this time. 42 43 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 44 45 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: John Yeager. 46 47 MR. YEAGER: Nothing at this time, Mr. 48 Chair. 49



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1 Thank you. 2 3 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: How about Larry 4 Bemis. 5 6 MR. BEMIS: Nothing at this time also. 7 8 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Cathy Needham. 9

10 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 11 This is Cathy. I don't have any questions, but I would 12 like to thank Sally for coming and presenting today and 13 reiterating the Forest Service process. I think the 14 more times that we talk about it the more it sinks in 15 that the actual process wasn't really followed in terms 16 of making the ANILCA determination or the finding and 17 then the hearings and determination. 18 19 And I also would like to reiterate what 20 Mr. Schroeder said about this list that I was scrolling 21 through this morning is huge and I had no idea. I mean 22 it's different to see a number on a piece of paper that 23 says how many were in opposition, but then to see it 24 listed out has a completely different effect. And so I 25 appreciate that printing that even just visual to 26 better for us. I'm sure it took a lot of time and 27 thank you for sharing that. 28 29 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Going back 30 to the Council. Are there any other Council members 31 who thought of a question since we started. 32 33 (No comments) 34 35 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Hearing none. 36 37 MR. WRIGHT: Mr. Chairman. 38 39 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Go ahead. 40 Is this Frank? 41 42 MR. WRIGHT: Frank. 43 44 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Go ahead, 45 Frank. 46 47 MR. WRIGHT: I would like to also thank 48 Sally for coming in and speaking on this. And, you 49 know, I've been through plenty of these things and it's



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1 always kind of like just let's talk and that's it. You 2 know, so a lot of people put in a lot of time to

3 address this issue and it gets frustrating when the

4 Federal government does stuff just to check the box. 5

6 Anyway, thank you, Sally. 7

8 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Any other Council

9 members. 10

11 (No comments) 12

13 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Sally, this

14 is Don Hernandez again. I don't think at this point I

15 have any questions for you. I think we're all pretty

16 clear on what the situation is here. You know, you're

17 very succinctly laying out the process for us on the

18 record. I think it's something that we've been talking

19 about. We're well aware of. We put it in our

20 comments. The only question going forward is how to

21 resolve this situation and what the Council can do. 22

23 You know, as a Council I think we feel

24 pretty obligated to be a voice for the subsistence

25 users who have overwhelmingly opposed what the

26 preferred alternative is, so we have to decide here

27 during this meeting essentially how best to address

28 their concerns in any way that we can given the

29 constraints we're under with meeting times and

30 following with the schedule that's laid out by the

31 planning team. So we will do that I'm sure. And we

32 appreciate your offer of any assistance that you can

33 give. 34

35 So unless anybody else on the Council

36 has any last comments. 37

38 (No comments) 39

40 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: I will thank you

41 for your testimony. 42

43 MS. SCHLICHTING: All right. Thank you

44 very much. 45

46 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. At this

47 point I would just like to ask if there's anybody who

48 has called in this morning who would like to give

49 public testimony that I haven't already heard from.



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1 MS. CULP: Yeah. This is -- we'd like 2 to speak. Hoonah. 3

4 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Was your first

5 name Neva? 6

7 MS. CULP: Hoonah. This is Wanda Culp,

8 in Hoonah. And Rebekah Sawer, S-A-W-E-R-S. 9

10 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. We have

11 Wanda and Rebekah. 12

13 And did somebody else also call in? 14

15 MS. CULP: We're the two testifying

16 from Hoonah. 17

18 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. I thought I

19 heard somebody else maybe from Kake. 20

21 MS. GLOVER: Kate Glover also called in

22 separately to testify after..... 23

24 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Right. 25

26 MS. GLOVER: .....after the Hoonah

27 ladies do. 28

29 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: We've got Kate

30 Glover from Earth Justice. 31

32 Okay. Well, we will go with the folks

33 that I know for sure. Wanda and Rebekah in Hoonah,

34 whoever would like to go first. 35

36 MS. CULP: All right. This is Wanda.

37 I'll go first just to give some background. 38

39 We have a proposal to submit to the

40 Federal Subsistence Board and the Federal government

41 all the way up to D.C. However, we have had trouble

42 trying to get it submitted to you folks. And it isn't

43 only your website that is complicated, but it's also

44 I'm suffering until I get a new computer. So we need

45 to get our proposal to you somehow and your link is

46 just too complicated. Can I just send it to -- as an

47 attachment to DeAnna? 48

49 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: I'll check with



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1 DeAnna on that, but I believe that would be a 2 convenient way to do it. Yes. 3 4 Do you agree, DeAnna? 5 6 MS. PERRY: Yes. I can receive things 7 through email. 8 9 Wanda, I believe you and Rebekah were

10 going to let the Council know what was on your mind and 11 what the proposal would be about. 12 13 MS. CULP: Certainly. Yes, you bet. I 14 was hoping it would be before your faces as well. But 15 given this proposal isn't just fish or game, it 16 includes the whole system that is literally broken to 17 us as Alaska Natives. And if you even check your web 18 page on Federal Subsistence Management Program, it is 19 so busy just looking at it gives me a brain cramp. 20 21 And the group that we represent this 22 morning is the Tongass Women for Forests. That's 23 around the world. And we're attached to the Women's 24 Earth and Climate Action Network International. So 25 we're speaking holistically. As indigenous women we're 26 looking from the ground up on the possibilities of 27 improving these Federal laws that affect us so deeply. 28 29 And there's two in particular that 30 we're looking at that's very important to include and 31 that we include in our proposal. One of them is the 32 Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act, ANILCA 33 of 1980. Now that one is two-fold. The first part of 34 it is concerning the lands conservation. The second 35 part is a protection of subsistence activities within 36 the Alaska national lands, which is Federal lands. 37 38 The second law that we're looking at is 39 the National Environmental Policy Act, NEPA of 1969. 40 And the names of these two acts of Congress put our 41 interests together. Lands conservation and 42 environmental policy. That connects to subsistence 43 use. 44 45 So this is where we're coming from when 46 we're thinking about with the proposal that we're 47 bringing forward. And we have been active throughout 48 the last couple of years with the WECAN Operation 49 International. And we did travel to Washington, D.C.



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1 in March, a year ago actually, the four of us with 2 WECAN and Earth Justice. And so our attachment will 3 give you visuals and links to our activities regarding 4 that, so that we won't have to go into it. 5 6 I would like to really commend and 7 thank Don Hernandez, Mr. Chairman of the Southeast 8 Regional Advisory Council, for providing us your 9 grounds to bring forward this proposal, it was very

10 well appreciated and we used it a lot. So what this 11 does is the Federal Subsistence Board deals with the 12 Department of Interior agencies, as well as the 13 Department of Agriculture, but the Department of 14 Agriculture is the only one dealing with the Roadless 15 Rule when we need both of the Secretaries to be 16 involved in this in order for it to be effective we 17 need to all come together. 18 19 So I'm not going to be long-winded 20 about that, but I would like you folks to get a chance 21 to look at our proposal when I get it to DeAnna. And 22 the following will be my statement and then I will turn 23 it over to Rebekah for her statement and that will 24 conclude our input. 25 26 So I will start. 27 28 My name is Kashudoha Wanda Culp, 29 Tlingit (In Native) Brown Bear People from Glacier Bay. 30 I live in Hoonah. I am the coordinator for the Tongass 31 Women for Forests. We are action network partners with 32 the Women's Earth and Climate Action Network 33 International, WECAN, meaning that we connect globally 34 throughout internet, technology, and numerous news 35 medias to learn from each other and coordinate 36 information into news-worthy actions. It has proven 37 out that it is indigenous women on the front lines of 38 defending what is left of our natural world from a 39 disease called capitalism. 40 41 I will mention names here because we 42 are Alaskans and to bring reality to our minds. Alaska 43 Republican Lisa Murkowski is the daughter of the 44 logging baron and ex-Senator and Governor of Alaska, 45 also Republican, Frank Murkowski, who controlled the 46 mass clear-cut logging in the 1980s and '90s. That's 47 when the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act, ANCSA, 48 turned our Tlingit lands and the Haida lands, possessed 49 lands that surround our villages, they turned into



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1 private real estate holdings under the State of Alaska 2 rule. That's what ANCSA did for us. This is called a 3 new capitalism experiment for Alaska's indigenous 4 claims to lands traditionally used and occupied before 5 time recorded. 6 7 Byron Mallott, Tlingit, was the 8 president and chief executive officer for my regional 9 corporation during that time. His son Anthony now

10 occupies that position at Sealaska. Byron was the 11 Lieutenant Governor for the State of Alaska under 12 Governor Walker. In 2017 Lisa made her first 13 underhanded action to weaken the 2001 Roadless Rule by 14 sliding it into a rider attached to the Senate budget 15 package. It is not difficult to see the collusion that 16 has survived throughout the decades. 17 18 In early 2018, the Indigenous Women of 19 the Tongass first spoke out against Lisa's sneaking 20 route through the Huffington Post, bringing attention 21 to national interests. That summer I traveled with 22 WECAN to Prince of Wales and visited with the Haida 23 ladies and ran into Sealaska's top dogs at Klawock's 24 tiny airport there at the time. They had been in 25 Hydaburg with their corporate logging plans for 26 Sealaska's newly acquired outstanding acreage that 27 finalized the Land Claims Settlement. The additional 28 Sealaska land will be logged out. 29 30 I also had occasion to travel to San 31 Francisco, California, where WECAN International Action 32 met with groups from around the world gathered to 33 demonstrate on the streets, bringing awareness of the 34 global warming crisis. This global high temperature 35 shows a worldwide illness of 75 percent of indigenous 36 lands by environmental change to human behavior. 37 38 I ask you. What is today's first red 39 flag of the possible Coronavirus within us. An 40 elevated temperature. 75 percent damage of any living 41 organism as the degrading of wild habitat is the same 42 as flesh eating bacteria to our skin. Skin covers our 43 bodies to keep us as a living, breathing unit, the same 44 as our planet needs their covering. 45 46 Our mothers, grandmothers, tribal 47 leaders, national interest voices, and all 48 decisionmakers are facing the burden of planetary 49 health right now. In San Francisco I participated in



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1 one of many panels of amazing women and learned of 2 their struggles, hardships, poverty, attacks, torture, 3 rape, murder, and the losses of every kind a woman can 4 suffer. In Gandhi's words, poverty is the worst form 5 of violence. We must make injustices visible. 6 7 Poverty is immoral and it is a form of 8 hate. Women carry the responsibility of our children's 9 and family's health, as well as preserving the history

10 of our proud family bloodlines. One indigenous 11 teenager from Canada said they tried to stomp us under 12 their feet, but I am a seed. Think about it. How 13 about that for seeing our origins with clear, female 14 eyes. 15 16 Women are the experts in make-overs and 17 sustainable planning into the future for generations to 18 come. We are also the housecleaning experts, a power 19 within self for good health of the family, the 20 neighborhood, the community, and globally. It is the 21 voices of the female nurses today providing guidance 22 for appropriate handling of the global pandemic we are 23 in right this minute. Our confidence must be elevated 24 and brought to the decisionmaking tables for 25 expediency. 26 27 In March 2019 we traveled to 28 Washington, D.C., the four of us from Hoonah, and let 29 the officials know of the high-powered politics being 30 played on our behalf as Alaska Natives, Alaska 31 residents, and the nation. We visited 16 Congressional 32 offices in two days, a record we understand, we were 33 told. 34 35 A lot is said about the Forest 36 Service's Draft Environmental Impact Statement attempt 37 to roll back the effectiveness of the 2001 Roadless 38 Rule. We hear nothing about what the State of Alaska's 39 Native corporate officials are up to with the 40 Governor's office in collaboration with the Alaska 41 Republican Lisa Murkowski. They are the seed of the 42 roadless draft Environmental Impact Statement that is 43 causing us problems right now. 44 45 The lands directly affected are Federal 46 lands. Question. What of the Tlingit and Haida owned 47 private property real estate and financial capital that 48 surrounds our villages and are controlled by the State 49 of Alaska rules of enforcement. Answer. Lands in



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1 private holdings are freely open to capital 2 exploitation. In Alaska indigenous owned private lands 3 are vulnerable to outside exploitation just as the 2001 4 Roadless Rule will continue to be if not officially 5 coded into the books of Federal regulations. 6 7 Capitalism has failed Alaska Natives 8 and if our own Land Claims Settlement is the tool to 9 our poverty, the women must step forward and set her

10 children's world straight in the face of wrong. Each 11 of you sitting at decisionmaking tables must set aside 12 pre-established judgements and allow us to expose the 13 injustices that plague our traditional lands described 14 as private property through our own Alaska Native 15 Claims Settlement Act. 16 17 Hydaburg is having to watch Sealaska 18 drop the trees on their newly acquired land claims land 19 within the village view shed, just as Hoonah had to 20 watch in the 1980s. And then the second attack in the 21 1990s by Sealaska. The Federal government has control 22 of the Congressional laws of the land, but the 23 corporate employers have the power to control income. 24 This experiment has split our culture to pieces. 25 26 Nevertheless, the 2001 Roadless Rule 27 has demonstrated that there are indeed grass root 28 benefits and more profitability to maintaining and 29 repairing an intact ecosystem over the expanding of 30 Federal money on losing investments for out-of-state 31 business sectors. For a Congressional delegate to 32 develop her authority, to overstep her authority and 33 use the Federal government departments and agencies as 34 her vehicle should be an outrage to all of us, as 35 should her joint work with the Governor's office to 36 jump over laws and using pro-logging advisory 37 committee's creation to develop a draft Environmental 38 Impact Statement alternative on behalf of the Federal 39 government. 40 41 This background information I'm 42 bringing here must be considered in a holistic approach 43 to land management decisions of the Federal Subsistence 44 Board and Southeast Alaska's Regional Advisory Council. 45 Include not only subsistence-related laws, but also 46 those that involve land conservation and environmental 47 protections. All are intertwined in common interests 48 and goals. Dual management with the State on customary 49 and traditional use is not appropriate given their non-



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1 compliance to Federal law of the lands. We encourage 2 cooperative understanding agreements with tribes to be 3 the most appropriate way to deal with the people of the 4 land. 5 6 Today we are asking that the Federal 7 Subsistence Board disregard the Roadless Rule draft 8 Environmental Impact Statement as unworkable and take 9 the time to allow the process to work as it should on

10 behalf of the beneficiaries, not despite the 11 beneficiaries. 12 13 Further, we ask you that you seriously 14 consider our Tongass Women's for the Forest WECAN 15 resolution proposal towards a smoother and just 16 operation of appropriateness. Hoonah supports SEACC. 17 We have had a long relationship with the Southeast 18 Alaska Conservation Council starting with the '80s and 19 '90s, where we were able to save important places like 20 Ausko Bay and White Stone Harbor and Nuka Bay here in 21 Hoonah, and other places, too. So joining together is 22 always going to give us strength. The 450,000 voices 23 across America to defend our Tongass wild lands is 24 important. You must listen to that. They include 25 organizations, tribes, everyone who cares. All these 26 people cannot be ignored. 27 28 And this is what we're bringing forward 29 along with SEACC and the others who speak out on behalf 30 today of the Tongass. 31 32 Gunalcheesh. 33 34 Here is Rebekah. 35 36 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Would you 37 like..... 38 39 MS. CULP: Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't 40 mean to jump. Did anyone have any questions. 41 42 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: I was going to say 43 would you take some questions, Wanda? 44 45 MS. CULP: Yes. I'm sorry. I didn't 46 mean to overstep the process. 47 48 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: No. That's fine. 49 Yeah. I'll open it up to the Council if they have any



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1 questions to you, starting with Frank Wright. 2 3 MR. WRIGHT: No, I don't. 4 5 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. How about 6 Mike Douville. 7 8 MR. DOUVILLE: I do not have any 9 questions.

10 11 Thank you. 12 13 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Bob Schroeder. 14 15 MR. SCHROEDER: No questions. But I 16 would like to thank Wanda for her activism and for 17 coming before us. 18 19 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. How about 20 Albert Howard. 21 22 MR. HOWARD: I don't have anything 23 right now. 24 25 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 26 27 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Harold 28 Robbins? 29 30 MR. ROBBINS: I have no questions right 31 now. 32 33 Thank you, Chair. 34 35 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. John 36 Yeager. 37 38 MR. YEAGER: None for me, Mr. Chair. 39 40 Thank you. 41 42 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Larry 43 Bemis? 44 45 MR. BEMIS: Thank you for the 46 presentation. That was a lot of coverage of a lot of 47 things you're doing and thank you for the report. 48 49 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. And Cathy



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1 Needham. 2 3 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 4 This is Cathy. I would really like to thank Wanda for 5 her well thought out and put together testimony this 6 morning. I appreciate the time that you take to do 7 that and to interact with us. 8 9 I do have one question. Have you or do 10 you know of any of the tribes that have had any success 11 in being able to access our Legislature, such as 12 Senator Murkowski, and been able to have any kind of 13 constructive dialogue about the Alaska Roadless Rule 14 making process? Could you speak to potential attempts 15 that people have made and may not have been able to get 16 their point across to what messaging that she's 17 sending? 18 19 MS. CULP: Thank you. That's a very 20 good question, Cathy. 21 22 No. Lisa Murkowski did sneak into the 23 Southeast in July, I believe, and went to Ketchikan, 24 Petersburg, and Wrangell. Now Hoonah has two small 25 sawmills that -- from under the Roadless Rule, you 26 know, for local economic development opportunities and 27 jobs for people. She didn't get a hold of him and I'm 28 sure any of the other small businesses, but she was -- 29 came in and grabbed up our Southeast -- our Congress 30 big shot in Ketchikan and went to Petersburg and made 31 it a point to say and questioning forcibly why there 32 was no takers on the timber sales and she wanted to 33 attend to that right now. 34 35 So she did not come forward to ask any 36 of us within the subsistence world, she didn't even 37 talk to us. It was not her point. She only came here 38 to do business. 39 40 MS. NEEDHAM: All right. Thank you, 41 Mr. Chair and Ms. Culp again for the time to come in 42 before us and working for our system. I have no 43 further questions. 44 45 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Thank you, 46 Cathy. 47 48 Any other Council members think of any 49 questions in the interim.



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1 MR. WRIGHT: Mr. Chairman, this is 2 Frank. 3 4 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Go ahead, 5 Frank. 6 7 MR. WRIGHT: When you went East were 8 you able to get a hold of any Congressional people or 9 was there anyone that wanted to listen to you guys?

10 11 MS. CULP: Yes. Thank you for asking 12 that question. Yes. We have been pretty much in touch 13 with committees and sub-committees regarding the 14 natural resources and all this Roadless Rule effects. 15 And come to find out that Lisa Murkowski is like the 16 chairwoman of the major ones. However, the ones that 17 are sitting on these national chairs have been very 18 responsive to what we've been doing and actually taking 19 some of our media and using it and bringing that 20 forward for everybody to see. In other words, our 21 advocating that we were not properly heard here in 22 Alaska was picked up and brought forward by committees 23 from those throughout Southeast. 24 25 And when we did go to Washington, D.C. 26 I have to say that on those two days that we went to 27 those Congressional offices, it was fast and furious. 28 But we wore our regalia as our official meeting, as 29 they see us. We did not want to be blended in with the 30 rest of the world. We wanted them to remember us. And 31 it was very effective. 32 33 I believe that everybody, except Lisa 34 Murkowski's office, everybody who greeted us very well. 35 And when the Department heads or the senators and 36 Republicans and, excuse me, representatives could not 37 make it to our visit, they sent their next-in-command. 38 However, Lisa Murkowski sent us her bottom staff. She 39 didn't intend to ever take what we had to say 40 seriously. And we were there. We saw it. We 41 experienced it. So this has to be known. 42 43 MR. WRIGHT: Thank you. That's what I 44 wanted to hear. 45 46 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 47 48 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Yep. Thank 49 you, Frank.



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1 Any other Council members. 2 3 (No comments) 4 5 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. I don't 6 hear anybody. So Wanda, I do want to thank you for 7 your very powerful testimony. I think it's really 8 unfortunate that we haven't had a chance to meet in 9 person at our meetings and get to, you know, talk some

10 more about things. I look forward to doing that 11 someday. 12 13 And you said you had a proposal you 14 wanted to get to the Council. Will you be doing that 15 here today, so we could see that while our meeting is 16 still in session? 17 18 MS. CULP: Oh, yes. While Rebekah 19 Sawers will be reading her statement next, I will be 20 sending that to DeAnna. And yeah, we will be doing 21 that. 22 23 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. 24 25 MS. CULP: Sorry for the length of it, 26 but we covered a lot of ground. We're trying to bring 27 light to how broken the system is and trying to bring 28 some common sense to it so that it is not so 29 convoluted, so it will start making sense. 30 31 And just to say one example real quick 32 is that, you know, you folks have ten regions that 33 you're dealing with in what, something like 25 or 26 34 game units within the State of Alaska system. So our 35 suggestion is because ANILCA Title VIII and ANILCA 36 itself is a spawn from Alaska Native Claims Settlement 37 Act, we're proposing that the Federal Subsistence Board 38 use the same 12 regions that we live under. And we 39 think that will, alone will also draw out our 40 traditional use areas that we use in each region and 41 make it a lot more simpler for these folks to be making 42 decisions without the State's boundaries. 43 44 And they're out of compliance with 45 ANILCA Title VIII, so they -- you know, our point is, 46 you know, their input is more problematic than it is a 47 help because we have never won cases in State court for 48 our taking of fish and wildlife while tons upon tons of 49 our fish and game is being exported out of our villages



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1 daily during the summer. 2 3 I won't go into it anymore, but Rebekah 4 -- she's our -- I'm the old one and Rebekah is our 5 youth. So there's a balance here in our presentation. 6 7 Thank you. 8 9 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Very good. We

10 appreciate that. And we also appreciate your holistic 11 view on things. It's something the Council is very 12 well aware of that we need to take a holistic approach 13 to some of these issues. And we appreciate your 14 bringing that to our attention once again. 15 16 So thank you again for you testimony 17 and your activism. We appreciate that. 18 19 And I will ask if Rebekah is ready to 20 testify. 21 22 MS. SAWERS: Yeah. Hi. 23 24 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Good morning, 25 Rebekah. 26 27 MS. SAWERS: Good morning. My name is 28 Rebekah Sawers. I live in Hoonah and this is my 29 testimony. 30 31 It concerns me that the Federal 32 government is not keeping the State of Alaska under 33 compliance. It concerns me because the same goals are 34 not in place. Land management, environmental 35 management, and subsistence management. These laws 36 that were set in place were obligations to Alaska 37 Natives. Where is their accountability. We the 38 villages need help because the State of Alaska is doing 39 everything in its power to take our identify away from 40 the land. Alaska Natives have been tamping down all of 41 the misused power and hurt from industry that the State 42 allows. It concerns me, my way of life. These Federal 43 rules affect me. 44 45 Regarding the Department of 46 Agriculture, the Forest Service is not following the 47 rules of the Federal Subsistence Board, FACA, NEPA, and 48 ANILCA. How can you allow this sort of sneaky 49 underhandedness. Due to the oversights of the Forest



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1 Service, Tongass Forest Service DEIS, a delay in the 2 final Roadless Rule should occur until proper processes 3 have been followed. And maybe they will follow a FACA 4 approved group and members of the -- where the Council 5 live and hunt and gather from their regions, SERAC is 6 looking to conserve the environment in which they are a 7 part of. 8 9 I am also advocating that the Roadless

10 Rule needs to be made into the code of Federal 11 regulations. The Roadless Rule is being exploited. It 12 helps keep out big companies taking over the land. It 13 keeps small, local mom and pop shops in business 14 because they follow extensive environmental rules that 15 help ensure fish and wildlife habitat are protected. 16 17 Also, keep commercial activities out of 18 ANILCA. 19 20 And we cannot allow the State of Alaska 21 to give away public lands and made into private 22 property. We need to keep our Tongass National Forest 23 standing. Think about all of the other Forests that 24 have been logged down and burned in Brazil and 25 Australia. We must think about the future generations. 26 And no one is thinking about future generations like 27 our mothers and grandmothers. Indigenous women's 28 voices have always been influencing. We need to be 29 listening to our grandmothers and focusing on what they 30 have to offer. Times of suffering are about and our 31 grandmothers have lived through tough times and 32 sickness before. It's time to take action and listen 33 to what people are saying. 34 35 Thank you for listening. 36 37 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Thank you, 38 Rebekah. And would you like to take questions from 39 Council members if they have any? 40 41 MS. SAWERS: Yes. Thank you. 42 43 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. We'll start 44 with Cathy Needham this time. 45 46 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 47 This is Cathy. I don't have questions, but I would 48 again like to thank Rebekah for taking the time to put 49 together a testimony and coming forward and speaking on



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1 behalf of this issue. And just to let her know that we 2 hear you. 3 4 Thank you. 5 6 MS. SAWERS: Thank you. 7 8 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Thank you, Cathy. 9

10 Larry Bemis. 11 12 MR. BEMIS: Thank you for your 13 presentation. It was very nice, and keep working on 14 that. Every bit we push forward is always better than 15 not doing nothing. 16 17 Thank you. 18 19 MS. SAWERS: Thank you. 20 21 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: And John Yeager? 22 23 MR. YEAGER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 24 Thank you for your presentation. I don't have any 25 questions, but I greatly appreciate it. 26 27 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: And Harold 28 Robbins. 29 30 MR. ROBBINS: Mr. Chair, I have no 31 questions at this time. 32 33 Thank you. 34 35 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Albert Howard? 36 37 MR. HOWARD: I don't have anything. 38 39 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 40 41 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Bob Schroeder. 42 43 MR. SCHROEDER: No questions, but I 44 really appreciate that both Wanda and Rebekah came 45 before us. And Rebekah, if you're following in Wanda's 46 footsteps you'd better learn to take big steps. 47 48 (Laughter) 49



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1 MS. SAWERS: Thank you. 2 3 MS. CULP: Thank you, Bob. 4 5 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: And Mike Douville. 6 7 MR. DOUVILLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 8 No. I would just like to thank them for their 9 presentations. I remember Wanda being at our meeting

10 in Hoonah some years back and gave some real compelling 11 testimony on Glacier Bay. It stuck with me. 12 13 Good job. We hear you. 14 15 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. And Frank 16 Wright. 17 18 MR. WRIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 19 Yeah, Wanda, it's been a long ride, especially in 20 Hanlon versus Barton and SEACC. And thanks for your 21 testimony. 22 23 And Rebekah, thank you, too. 24 25 MS. SAWERS: Thank you. 26 27 MR. WRIGHT: It's good to hear people. 28 Gunalcheesh. 29 30 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 31 32 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Thank you, 33 Frank. 34 35 Yeah. Thank you once again, Rebekah. 36 We really appreciate hearing the younger people in the 37 communities come forward and it always gives the 38 Council members a really good perspective of what we 39 need to be considering. And that's, you know, the 40 future. It's what's going to happen with our kids and 41 grandkids, so I appreciate you coming before us this 42 morning. 43 44 MS. SAWERS: Thank you. 45 46 MS. CULP: I would like to add. This 47 is Wanda. I want to put in real quick, I'm going to 48 have to initiate Rebekah's help to find the proposal in 49 my new computer. That's why I haven't entered it. As



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1 soon as we find it I'm going to make sure you folks get 2 it. 3 4 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: So I think we also 5 all rely on the younger people in our communities to 6 help us with the technology, so that's mine as well. 7 8 (Laughter) 9

10 MS. CULP: Or we'd be dead and lost. 11 12 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: That's right. And 13 now before I ask Kate Glover to give her testimony, I 14 will ask if anybody else has called in this morning who 15 would like to give public testimony. Go ahead and 16 speak up now. We have one testifier that's going to 17 come first, but if you would like to testify you will 18 be put on the list. So is there anybody that called in 19 recently. 20 21 (No comments) 22 23 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: I'm not hearing 24 anybody. 25 26 So Kate, from Earth Justice, if you're 27 ready go ahead and start your testimony. 28 29 MS. GLOVER: Hi. My name is Kate 30 Glover, G-L-O-V-E-R. I'm with Earth Justice in Juneau, 31 which is a non-profit environmental law firm here. We 32 have a long history of advocating for local 33 communities, tribes, and conservation groups to protect 34 the roadless areas of the Tongass. 35 36 So I just want to take a couple of 37 minutes primarily to reinforce what has already been 38 said about the Roadless Rulemaking that's been going on 39 and the way that it has ignored the concerns of tribes 40 and subsistence users. And I think that Sally 41 Schlichting from SEACC outlined the process that the 42 Forest Service is supposed to follow in making findings 43 about subsistence. What I would like to reinforce is 44 that this process has to be a part of the Environmental 45 Impact Statement. Instead of making findings in the 46 draft EIS here, the Forest Service simply stated that 47 it may make a finding in the record of decision, if 48 appropriate. But that would not cure the problem here. 49



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1 The Forest Service needs to go back and 2 redo the findings and hold hearings where subsistence 3 users are presented with accurate information about how 4 the proposed rule will affect them so that they have 5 the ability to provide testimony and information about 6 their concerns. Simply providing a finding in the 7 final decision wouldn't resolve that underlying problem 8 of the lack of information opportunity to address the 9 concerns for subsistence. And in addition, in the EIS

10 the Forest Service needs to give notice to this Council 11 and to hold hearings for the affected users, all of 12 which needs to include the finding. 13 14 I appreciate the role of the Council in 15 this roadless process so far and encourage the Council 16 to continue its strong advocacy for subsistence users. 17 As others have advocated, and have encouraged I think 18 that that means for the Council to continue sending 19 strong letters to the Forest Service and the Federal 20 Subsistence Board and seeking meetings as appropriate. 21 22 It would also be appropriate to engage 23 with the Bureau of Indian Affairs and their branch of 24 subsistence as they have a strong voice for Native 25 people with the Federal Subsistence Board. I think the 26 decision as we've heard today is being made at the 27 national level. All of those communications need to be 28 addressed to Secretary Perdue and not simply to the 29 Regional Forester and the local Forest Service 30 officials. So I think the role for the Council is to 31 request findings, new hearings, and adequate 32 information to be the basis of those findings. And 33 make sure that that information is getting to the 34 national level. I encourage the Council to continue to 35 participate when the final EIS comes out, as well as 36 certainly before the final EIS comes out to advocate 37 for those findings to be made. So once it does come 38 out it is still possible to continue to submit 39 comments, although the Forest Service has less of an 40 obligation to respond to those. And there will be, I 41 believe, an opportunity to submit formal objections, to 42 address some of the questions the Council has raised 43 about what comment opportunities remain. 44 45 I think there is always room for a 46 committee such as this Council to submit its concerns 47 in writing and through meetings with Federal agencies. 48 And once the final decision comes out there is still 49 possibility of objecting to that decision formally.



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1 Thanks for the opportunity to testify 2 here today. And I appreciate the work that you have

3 been doing. 4

5 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Very good. Thank

6 you, Kate. Open it up to questions from the Council

7 again. 8

9 Frank Wright. 10

11 MR. WRIGHT: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you,

12 Mr. Chair. When the final EIS comes out, you know, as

13 a Regional Advisory Council, is that right that we will

14 not have any time for a comment into the EIS because of

15 our time frame in meetings? 16

17 MS. GLOVER: I don't know how that

18 works in terms of the time frame for your meetings. It

19 may be that the timing doesn't make it possible. There

20 is no formal comment opportunity after the final EIS,

21 but there is a period between the final EIS and the

22 record of decision and you can informally submit

23 comments at that time. Once the record is -- there

24 will then be an opportunity to file objections, which

25 is sort of like an administrative appeal, and that may

26 be something that the Council could consider as well,

27 although I don't know whether your meeting notice

28 timing would preclude that. I would have to look more

29 into your process and how that overlaps with the time

30 that's available. 31

32 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Follow-up, Frank? 33

34 MR. WRIGHT: Okay. I was just

35 wondering if, you know, anyone or Mr. Chairman that you

36 have any idea if there's anything we could do before

37 then. 38

39 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 40

41 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Thank you,

42 Frank. We will definitely be having a discussion about

43 this before the end of our meeting. 44

45 MR. WRIGHT: Okay. Thanks. 46

47 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: So Mike Douville. 48

49 MR. DOUVILLE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I



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1 don't have any questions at this time. 2 3 Thank you. 4 5 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Bob 6 Schroeder. 7 8 MR. SCHROEDER: Yes. Thank you, Ms. 9 Glover, for a really good presentation. I do think, 10 just to clarify, I thought we asked Nicole yesterday 11 and I believe we also heard this at a previous 12 presentation on roadless that there will be no 13 administrative appeal period. That in the interest of 14 streamlining things that that's been dropped. Do you 15 have any information on that? 16 17 MS. GLOVER: I had not heard. I was 18 unfortunately unable to listen yesterday afternoon. I 19 had not heard that information. But that's something I 20 will certainly look into. There typically is an 21 opportunity for objections, so I will see if I can find 22 out more about that. 23 24 MR. SCHROEDER: And second, partly a 25 question, but also just to the Council. We've done a 26 whole lot to make a really good record on our 27 opposition to the -- hang on a second here. 28 29 (Cell phone ringing) 30 31 MR. SCHROEDER: Something is making 32 noise. Why can't I get rid of it. Excuse me. 33 34 (Pause) 35 36 MR. SCHROEDER: So we've attempted to 37 make a really good record and perhaps we'll add to that 38 record with a communication that comes out of this 39 meeting. I don't know if you're familiar with our 40 comments, but if you could tell us what points you 41 think would be most important to mention in anything 42 that we may submit at this point, that might be 43 helpful. 44 45 MS. GLOVER: I have reviewed the 46 comments that the Council has submitted and I think 47 they're excellent comments and I think they have 48 covered the primary points. The points that you have 49 already covered and that I think would be valuable to



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1 continue to submit are about the process. The need to 2 make the findings and hold the hearings and as well as 3 the fact that that all needs to be based on adequate 4 site-specific information that allows users to 5 understand the impact of the actions. 6 7 I think all of that information is in 8 the comments that this Council has already submitted, 9 but I think there is always room for a Council such as

10 your Council that has some authority and an advisory 11 role to continue to raise those concerns. 12 13 MR. SCHROEDER: All right. Thank you. 14 And a follow up. I'm really glad you were able to 15 review some of our comments. And our last set of 16 comments was submitted both as a Council and then a 17 number of people submitted those comments as their 18 individual comments. We anticipate even if this wasn't 19 a very important rule, all Forest Service plans go 20 through a legal appeal it seems in recent years. Do 21 you feel that we would have standing in such an appeal 22 either as individuals or as a Council? 23 24 MS. GLOVER: I'm somewhat hesitant to 25 speak to that without looking a little more closely. I 26 haven't looked at the regulations in some time, but I 27 believe that for purposes of that kind of objection, 28 anyone can submit an objection. I don't think there's 29 a -- I think as long as you have submitted comments 30 earlier in the process as the Council did, then you can 31 do that. 32 33 If you're talking about litigation in 34 the courts I don't know whether the Council -- I would 35 have to think about that a bit. I'm not sure. 36 Individually it would depend on the facts of how 37 individual members use the areas of the Forest that 38 might be at risk. As a Council I'm not entirely sure 39 how that would work. I would have to look at that. I 40 apologize. 41 42 MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you very much. 43 It's just really clear that this Council and also its 44 members as individuals will definitely pursue this as 45 far as we possibly can and as effectively as we can. 46 47 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Thank you, 48 Bob.



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1 How about Albert Howard. Any 2 questions? 3 4 MR. HOWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 5 Yesterday the Forest Service had told us there was no 6 administrative appeal because this isn't a Forest 7 Service project so there was no administrative appeal. 8 9 Mr. Chairman, I think the Council --

10 and this could be up for a vote later that we should 11 support alternative one until we actually -- until the 12 Forest Service brings into compliance Section .810 and 13 Section .805. Neither of these two have been met in my 14 mind because Section .805, we don't have all the 15 information to properly represent subsistence users. 16 And so I think that may be the next step in the 17 position we should take. And based on that, I guess I 18 have a question. I have been dealing with the Forest 19 Service probably more than I would like to say and it's 20 always ended with the same results. 21 22 Thank you for your comment, but we're 23 going to do what we're going to do anyway. That's my 24 personal opinion. 25 26 So I'm wondering. This is the 27 question. When you have them doing the EIS on the 28 Roadless Rule which benefits them later if they decide 29 to sell a plot of land to a university, as an example, 30 to me that sounds like a conflict of interest. If 31 you're going to push this type of Roadless Rules down 32 our throats and tell us to accept it, it appears that 33 it's being done on the fast track so someone can make 34 some money off of it. But also when you have the 35 organization that's doing the EIS benefitting from the 36 EIS that sends me a different message. And I've always 37 wondered that because that has happened with the mine 38 as well. 39 40 And Mr. Chairman, I've stated earlier 41 that Angoon has opposed expansion to the tailings mine, 42 but it happened anyway. And we had a lot of valid 43 reasons because according to the language of the 44 Admiralty Island National Monument you can't -- any 45 action you take can't cause irreparable harm to the 46 island. And there was irreparable harm. Hawk Inlet is 47 now an impaired body water, and it wasn't before the 48 mine and it is now.



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1 So I guess I'm concerned unless this 2 process is slowed down and done properly or according 3 to all the laws that are in the books, I'm wondering if 4 this doesn't appear to be another one of those projects 5 that there's a conflict of interest in there somewhere. 6 So I guess that's the question. 7 8 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 9

10 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Kate, do you want 11 to response to Albert on that point? 12 13 MS. GLOVER: Sure. As you were 14 speaking I realized I've confused myself this morning 15 as we were talking about the administrative appeals. I 16 think you're correct. Because this is regulation there 17 is not an administrative appeal, whereas there is for 18 something like a timber sale. I mean that's correct. 19 There won't be an opportunity for a formal 20 administrative appeal. Nonetheless, when the final EIS 21 comes out or really at any time you can certainly still 22 submit comments though they will not be treated as an 23 appeal. 24 25 As far as the questions that you're 26 raising about a conflict of interest, yes, I think 27 that's right. The Forest Service does certainly have 28 an interest in opening lands to logging, as does the 29 State and the timber industry. That has -- I'm sure 30 many of you are aware, have seen some of the newspaper 31 stories that have come out during this process that the 32 timber industry has been getting funding from the State 33 to help with the Roadless Rule process while tribes 34 have not been. That money has not been made available 35 to tribes that have acted as cooperating agencies on 36 this process, which I think is another significant 37 issue in how the entire process has gone forward. That 38 there has been a -- that the Forest Service has ignored 39 the concerns of tribes and those who are most affected 40 by the decision while money and resources have been 41 given to the industry that will be subsidized by the 42 action. 43 44 I think that those are issues that you 45 can raise along with the questions about subsistence, 46 which I think is the primary purview of this Council. 47 I'm not sure that there is necessarily a separate legal 48 way to deal with the possibility of a conflict of 49 interest here or to directly address the Forest



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1 Service's failure to responsibly address the concerns 2 that the Council and others have raised other than to

3 continue raising those concerns and see where that goes

4 in the long run. The Forest Service does have legal

5 obligations to listen to the Council's concerns and to

6 the concerns of tribes and subsistence users and the

7 best that I think we can do is to continue to elevate

8 those concerns in every way we find. 9

10 I'm not sure that directly answers your

11 question, but I think that might be the best I can do. 12

13 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Albert, do you

14 have a follow up? 15

16 MR. HOWARD: Mr. Chair, that's just

17 something I've always wondered and now I have an

18 answer. We've been down this road before, Mr. Chair,

19 Angoon has, as far as I think we're still paying the

20 price today for the extraterritorial jurisdiction.

21 We've definitely -- trying to solve a problem we ended

22 up paying a price for it and the problem was never

23 solved. So I've learned to keep powder dry and

24 everything thing else like that, but it's just

25 something I've always wondered. 26

27 But I think as a Council, I'd like to

28 see us go with alternative one until we get the

29 answers. 30

31 So thank you, Mr. Chair. 32

33 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Thank you,

34 Albert. We'll certainly be considering that I'm sure. 35

36 Harold Robbins, do you have a question? 37

38 MR. ROBBINS: I have no questions at

39 this time. 40

41 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. How about

42 John Yeager. 43

44 MR. YEAGER: Nothing here, Mr. Chair. 45

46 Thanks. 47

48 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yep. Larry Bemis. 49



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1 MR. BEMIS: I would like to thank Kate 2 for her comments. And it's very nice to hear that we 3 still are carrying the battle forward. 4 5 Thank you. 6 7 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Thank you, 8 Larry. 9

10 How about Cathy Needham. Questions? 11 12 MS. NEEDHAM: Yes. Thank you, Mr. 13 Chair. This is Cathy. Kate, thank you for your 14 testimony and answering our questions and to the best 15 that you can. And I understand that there might not be 16 any straightforward answers about the question that I'm 17 about to ask, but I was hoping to get a little feel 18 from you. 19 20 So the Regional Advisory Council is a 21 FACA committee to the Department of Agriculture. And 22 we have been involved with this process as much as we 23 can; however, we have been limited by our participation 24 because we only meet twice a year. And you may know 25 that we have, as the Roadless Rulemaking process is 26 moving forward, once we meet we actually put a lot of 27 time and energy into making comments and putting them 28 into letters that we submit and those letters should be 29 going directly to the Secretary of Agriculture, as well 30 as our Federal Subsistence Board and to the Alaska 31 Rulemaking Team. 32 33 In our last letter we did what Sally 34 testified on and you acknowledged it yourself, and a 35 little bit about what we spoke about yesterday when we 36 had an update and that was to point out the fact that 37 the process or the Forest Service handbook was not 38 followed in terms of how to make a Section .810 ANILCA 39 determination. And so as a FACA committee that comment 40 went in our last letter that was forwarded on to the 41 Department of Agriculture and at this point in time I 42 have absolutely no idea whether or not that has been 43 looked at between the draft EIS and the final EIS, 44 whether or not it really even made a difference. 45 46 So now we're hearing or now we know 47 that there's not going to be this -- we can comment 48 between draft EIS and FEIS, so we can reiterate what we 49 have already said as a FACA committee; however, there



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1 will be no appeals process, in particular, no appeals 2 process specific to these grounds. And so I'm sitting 3 here a little bit frustrated about what can we actually 4 do. I mean I'm perfectly fine continuing to beat the 5 drum. I want to do that. But what can we do that's 6 going to make a difference. And now I'm wondering what 7 can we do, and what can organizations maybe like you 8 and Sally's organization do, to get the word out so 9 that others are kind of repeating that same message

10 about that violation of process and then also the fact 11 that we're really not representing subsistence users in 12 the way that we could or should be. 13 14 So is there a course of action that can 15 be taken after this meeting that involves other 16 organizations such as yourself sort of rallying around 17 the fact that the process wasn't followed? 18 19 MS. GLOVER: Yeah. I think that the 20 frustrations you're expressing are frustrations we all 21 feel. We have all participated in the processes that 22 are available as well as we can and I know that 23 organizations like Sally's in particular have done a 24 great job of rallying the troops and getting a lot of 25 comments out to the Forest Service. Nonetheless, we 26 all have the feelings of frustration that we're not 27 being listened to. 28 29 And I think that what we can do is to 30 continue to submit comments even when there are no 31 official comment periods, request meetings with, in 32 particular, Secretary Perdue, or the under-secretary, 33 people at the national level who we understand to be 34 the ones actually making the decision in this case. 35 Continuing to organize community members, others who 36 are affected by the rule or by the proposal rule to 37 make their voices heard. Whether that is by sending 38 letters to the representatives, sending letters to the 39 Forest Service, getting information into newspaper and 40 radio stories. Those kinds of things I think remain 41 worthwhile. 42 43 And I do think that the voice of this 44 Subsistence Council and the voices of the tribes remain 45 among the most powerful voices even though we are not 46 seeing the Forest Service and the Department of 47 Agriculture listening to those voices, doing what the 48 tribes have asked. But I believe that one of the most 49 important things to do continues to be asking for



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1 subsistence hearings and findings so that the Forest 2 Service, to meet its obligations, to do that correctly, 3 would require the Forest Service to take a couple of 4 steps back. To make the findings and then to do the 5 hearings and listen to communities where those hearings 6 are based on findings that have already been made and 7 information that is in an Environmental Impact 8 Statement that's available to show what would happen. 9

10 I think that that is what needs to 11 happen here and that that needs to be what we're asking 12 for, what the Council asks for and what other people 13 ask for and I think that we will continue and SEACC and 14 the other groups will continue to try to mobilize 15 people who are concerned about this to ask those things 16 as well. To have tribes asking for meetings that 17 address both their subsistence concerns and their 18 rights as sovereigns to government to government 19 consultation. 20 21 Sally, if she's still on the phone, may 22 be better able to speak to some of the other things 23 that we could do, but I guess I would just say that we 24 all feel your frustration and I think that I don't have 25 a grand solution for something new that will force the 26 Forest Service to listen to what we're asking, but 27 continue to make those voices heard is the right 28 course, I think. 29 30 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Follow-up, Cathy? 31 32 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 33 This is Cathy. No. I don't have anything further. 34 35 Thank you. 36 37 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. I will just 38 go back to the whole Council once again. If anybody 39 spoke previously who wanted to -- any last words, speak 40 up now. 41 42 MR. SCHROEDER: This is Bob Schroeder. 43 44 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Go ahead. 45 46 MR. SCHROEDER: And thanks once again, 47 Ms. Glover, for coming before us. Clearly the Council 48 will be figuring out what it's going to do in terms of 49 whether it's going to write letters focused on



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1 different aspects of this and where they go. 2 3 Our typical Council procedure has been 4 to make a good record and then we delegate the actual 5 words on paper to committee. And I don't know if 6 that's what we'll follow on this meeting, but I suspect 7 we may. If we do that, we may benefit from being able 8 to call on you to just drill down on a little bit of 9 the information that you provided. I'm assuming that

10 you'd be available for that assistance. 11 12 Thank you. 13 14 MS. GLOVER: Certainly. 15 16 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Any other 17 Council members with any other questions. 18 19 MR. WRIGHT: Yeah. This is Frank. 20 21 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Go ahead. 22 23 MR. WRIGHT: Frank Wright. You know, I 24 feel the frustration of everybody, you know, and what 25 probably frustrates me most is that, you know, laws are 26 being broken. But who do we address these laws to. 27 And it's kind of like we've got a lawless government or 28 something. You know, and does this go to the -- well, 29 I don't know. I'm not sure I'm saying it right. To 30 the solicitor general or who. You know, someone's got 31 to obey the law I mean. 32 33 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 34 35 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Comment, 36 Kate? 37 38 MS. GLOVER: Ultimately there is no 39 final decision yet. Ultimately if laws are broken in 40 the course of making that decision, we address that 41 through the courts. And certainly we are assessing 42 carefully the draft Environmental Impact Statement and 43 will continue to do that as the final Environmental 44 Impact Statement and the record of decision come out. 45 And specifically that is the process where agencies are 46 not following the law, then we eventually end up in 47 court to have the courts decide whether the law has 48 been followed or not and if the law has not been 49 followed then usually that means the decision is sent



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1 back for a do over to follow the laws correctly. 2 3 And so I guess that's the long term 4 trajectory is we'll see what happens. 5 6 MR. WRIGHT: Thank you. 7 8 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Thank you, 9 Council members. Kate, I appreciate your presentation

10 this morning. Appreciating hearing a legal background. 11 12 Council, you know, all councils are -- 13 we have an obligation to, you know, respond to the 14 concerns of our fellow subsistence users who bring 15 their concerns to us. And we have heard that loud and 16 clear. This Council, I think it also has a legal 17 responsibility kind of mandated under Title VIII of 18 ANILCA that we are responsible for, you know, advising 19 our decisionmakers and that's a legal responsibility 20 given to us under law. So I think we intend to do that 21 in any way that is possible to us. 22 23 We have some real questions before us 24 about this whole legal procedure. We are obviously 25 disagreeing with the procedure that has been followed 26 up to this point. I think your suggestion of 27 requesting a redo of the process is probably in order. 28 We'll probably discuss that. 29 30 I think something else that is clear is 31 our Council is somewhat constrained by our abilities to 32 meet in public meetings and do business in a timely 33 fashion in response to the time line set forward by the 34 team that's conducting this process. That's been a 35 problem. But I think the Council has also kind of 36 established that we don't necessarily feel that under 37 our obligations under ANILCA we need to follow time 38 lines set by a team doing an analysis. If we have an 39 opportunity at a public meeting to submit comments 40 regardless of what their schedule might be, I think we 41 will do so. And we will probably make those comments 42 to who we are directed to make those comments, which is 43 ultimately the Secretary. 44 45 So I think we will be kind of 46 discussing all of those situations here before this 47 meeting is over and we'll come to -- I'm sure we'll 48 come to some action. 49



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1 So once again, thank you, Kate, for 2 helping us in that process. 3 4 And with that I will ask once again if 5 there is anybody that called in that would like to do a 6 public testimony this morning. This is your 7 opportunity to speak up now and let us know if you want 8 to testify. 9

10 (No comments) 11 12 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. I'm not 13 hearing anybody. 14 15 Let's take a ten-minute break and we 16 will switch gears here and go back to fisheries 17 monitoring projects. And Cathy, I think you're up 18 first. We will give you an opportunity to prepare for 19 that. 20 21 And then we will have an update on 22 fisheries resource monitoring program from OSM. 23 24 So next presenters, take ten minutes, 25 get prepared, and we'll come back to session at 10:45. 26 27 (Off record) 28 29 (On record) 30 31 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: So we're going to 32 jump on new business where we left off yesterday 33 afternoon. And we were about to hear a presentation on 34 the fisheries resource monitoring project, I believe, 35 on Hetta Lake from Cathy Needham. 36 37 So if you're ready, Cathy, go ahead. 38 39 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 40 This is Cathy Needham and I will be presenting the 41 Hydaburg's Subsistence Sockeye Program project. I 42 apologize for not getting my presentation materials out 43 to everyone before now. I did have them sent this 44 morning and hopefully DeAnna was able to forward them 45 to the Council, but I want to make sure that they also 46 got forwarded to Staff. And hopefully that went out so 47 that you have some information in front of you as we go 48 through this. And again I do apologize for the 49 tardiness of that.



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1 I also want to let you guys know that 2 this is actually a project that the principal 3 investigator is Anthony Christianson with the Hydaburg 4 Cooperative Association. And the fisheries resource 5 monitoring team asked if we would be able to put 6 together a presentation for the Council. And at the 7 original time Mr. Christianson wasn't able to be at our 8 meeting and so he delegated that to me as his 9 consultant who worked alongside with him on a daily

10 basis during the season in order to monitor subsistence 11 sockeye salmon work in Hydaburg, Alaska. So this is 12 very much Hydaburg's program. I just have the honor of 13 being able to walk through some of the work that they 14 have been doing down there. And also I would like to 15 note that Mr. Christianson did try to call in. Spent a 16 portion of the morning trying to call into the meeting 17 so that he could be available to maybe say a few words 18 at the end of this presentation. So when I'm done 19 going through the actual presentation I will ask if Mr. 20 Christianson has been successful in being able to get 21 online. And if not, I can field questions. 22 23 Thank you, Mr. Chair, for this time. 24 25 I briefly want to go over some 26 information. I tried to approach this presentation so 27 that it wasn't very heavy on the data and more about 28 in-season management decisions. How we used the 29 information that's being collected by Hydaburg through 30 the fisheries resource monitoring program. How we used 31 that data both in-season and long term management 32 decisions. 33 34 As many of you Council members may know 35 and remember, Hydaburg has actually been working long 36 term under Fisheries Resource Management Program 37 dollars in and around their community since 2001 time 38 frame. They run several projects including traditional 39 ecological knowledge projects, sockeye salmon stock 40 status trends projects, steelhead stock status and 41 trend projects as well. 42 43 Traditional knowledge from previous 44 before Fisheries Resource Management Program, like 45 historically, was actually compiled by Steve Langdon 46 and Bob Sanderson. Steve Langdon is a renowned 47 anthropologists in the State and he worked together 48 with Bob Sanderson, one of the Haida elders out of 49 Hydaburg to compile the information and importance of



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1 16 sockeye salmon systems that are around Hydaburg. 2 That information was published and documented in 2009 3 as a published document. 4 5 Hydaburg Cooperative began working on 6 the Hetta Lake sockeye salmon project in conjunction 7 with the Alaska Department of Fish and Game in 2001 and 8 over the years have built capacity running the program 9 and by 2010 they became the principle investigator for

10 continuing the work that is still ongoing down at the 11 Hetta Lake fisheries program. On top of that in 2015 12 the Hydaburg Cooperative Association also began looking 13 at stock status and trend type projects in Eek Lake 14 documenting the fish that come back into Eek Lake. 15 16 The Hetta Lake project is an example of 17 a long term monitoring project for Southern Southeast 18 Alaska. It is not the only long term monitoring 19 program on the southern half. (Indiscernible) is the 20 system that Alaska Department of Fish and Game uses to 21 be forecasting for commercial fisheries. And so there 22 are a -- but however that project is not funded out of 23 the fisheries resource management program. 24 25 Again I just want to remind you that 26 the focus of my presentation is less about the data 27 that we've been collecting and more about some of the 28 ways that we have used the data more recently. But I 29 do want to provide a little bit of background because 30 it will make it easier to understand how we use this 31 data if you know what a little bit of the data is. 32 33 So on the next slide you'll see a map. 34 If you were able to get a copy of the presentation 35 you'll see a map. This map is directly taken from the 36 Langdon Sanderson work that I had mentioned. It 37 outlines and shows all of the 16 sockeye salmon systems 38 that are in and around Hydaburg. On the map Hydaburg 39 is kind of just north, or the top center portion of the 40 map, and then you can see that there are 16 sockeye 41 salmon systems are throughout Cordova Bay and then also 42 all the way out onto the west side of Dall Island. 43 44 Traditionally, Haida families owned 45 each of these systems, which was prior to, you know, 46 the Territory of Alaska and statehood. Haida families 47 from villages like Akwaan (ph), Klukwan, Howcan had 48 ownership at the mouth of these rivers and they gave 49 permissions for other peoples in the area to utilize



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1 them. All of that type of information is what's 2 documented in that document that I have referred to as 3 Langdon Sanderson in 2009. 4 5 The next is a map to sort of orient you 6 to the traditional territory of Hydaburg. It kind of 7 overlays the map that I just previously showed you. On 8 the lefthand side of the piece of paper there is a map 9 with arrows. Those arrows are depicting what

10 traditional knowledge has told us about sockeye salmon 11 migration patterns. So in the map on the lefthand side 12 you see an inset, a very small portion of the map, 13 that's the broader outer view. You can see Cordova 14 Bay. You can see Dall Island. And the arrows are 15 depicted here showing that fish are coming -- sockeye 16 salmon come down the -- migrate south down the west 17 side of Dall Island and Cordova Bay and then sockeye 18 salmon also come down the southern portion of Prince of 19 Wales Island from the east and migrate into Cordova 20 Bay. 21 22 So if you look onto the righthand side 23 of the slide you will see the fish pass through both 24 Districts 104 and 103 into Cordova Bay. And then sort 25 of carrying on their migration pattern when you look 26 into the more close-up view of the map on the lefthand 27 side looking outside of that apex, you'll see that 28 sockeye salmon come up into Cordova Bay and then they 29 enter Hetta Inlet and then a good portion of fish 30 actually stay on the west side of Hetta Inlet and 31 migrate all the way up to Jumbo Island before they -- 32 and those are really deep waters, and then eventually 33 they migrate back south. So they go up, turn around, 34 and kind of migrate back down towards where Hetta Inlet 35 is. So they come into Cordova Bay, go up into Hetta 36 Inlet, go up into the top of Hetta Inlet, and then come 37 down the eastern shoreline and into Hetta Inlet. 38 39 And that map has been -- this map that I'm 40 showing you here, when we handdrew it and then in GIS, 41 but we did it based on testimonies, historical, oral 42 testimonies from some of the elders in Hydaburg that 43 had fished and had followed fish around. And so they 44 kind of hand drew out the map and then we digitized it 45 in GIS. So that's where that map came from. 46 47 Just a quick overview about the project 48 status in Hydaburg, the objectives of those projects. 49 We received Fisheries Resource Management Program



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1 dollars to count the number of sockeye that return into 2 Hetta Lake and Eek Lake. And we count those sockeye 3 through -- in both systems now we count them through a 4 weir and we try to capture as much of the spawning 5 migration as feasible. We start operations early in 6 the first part of June and run them through September. 7 In association with that, we also collect age sex and 8 length data by scale sampling the fish that are 9 escaping into both of those lake systems. And then a

10 big portion of the Hetta Lake project is to actually 11 survey the entire subsistence harvest in all of the 12 systems that are important to Hydaburg. So that's done 13 by krill surveys. We either do fishing interviews on 14 the ground as fishermen are doing harvest or we do 15 follow up. The Cordova Bay area and all of the sockeye 16 salmon systems down near Hydaburg are mostly accessible 17 through Hydaburg, so we believe we capture a huge 18 portion of the actual harvest when we either get people 19 on the ground, we observe people on the ground and we 20 know who's fishing when and then are able to follow up 21 and do -- you know, ask community members about catch. 22 23 The next two slides are going to be the 24 little bit of data that I wanted to give to you guys, 25 to set a reference for how we're using this information 26 in management decisions. 27 28 This first slide has both the Hetta 29 Lake sockeye salmon returns, as well as the Eek Lake 30 sockeye salmon returns for as long as both systems have 31 had the weir systems in place. So although Hydaburg 32 has been working on these projects since 2001, early 33 years at Hetta the work was done by mark/recapture 34 estimate and a weir was not put in place until 2005. 35 Both of the tables include both the year count for each 36 year for each of those systems, as well as the harvest 37 from the each of those systems by year, which adding 38 those two figures together give us the estimated return 39 for each year for both Hetta and Eek Lake. 40 41 A couple of numbers that I will 42 probably refer to later or a couple of years that I'll 43 refer to later in this presentation come from the Hetta 44 data. I'd like to point out like in 2013 the weir 45 count was very low with a total estimated return of 46 sockeye salmon to Hetta Lake of 3,076 fish. 2016 was 47 the lowest year on record in terms of the return and 48 then in 2018 we saw the highest sockeye salmon return 49 on record at 33,316 fish coming back. That includes



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1 again both the weir count and the documented harvest 2 from Hetta Lake. 3 4 On the Eek Lake system that operation 5 has only been running for five seasons now and I want 6 to point out that we don't have a high level of 7 confidence in our weir count for any year. Each year 8 starting in 2015 we ran several redundant video netware 9 systems that we had problems with, power, so we know

10 that some fish went by uncounted. We changed 11 methodologies each year until 2018 and so each year we 12 were just tinkering with different systems in Eek Lake 13 because it's a very flashy system and we were having a 14 hard time keeping video equipment going. By 2018 we 15 relied solely on a (indiscernible) weir system, but we 16 also had a very new, green crew out there and so we 17 didn't get a reliable weir count that year. 18 19 And when you look at that table and it 20 says 8,000, 2,000, 9,000, 33,000, that's a product of 21 me accidentally cutting and pasting from the old table. 22 That's the Hetta numbers. So please just put a big old 23 X through the estimated returns for Hetta and just look 24 at the weir count and harvest, which are actually very 25 low numbers. Below 1,000 fish for each year. 26 27 The next data table is just an 28 accounting of the subsistence harvest by Hydaburg 29 residents or by Hydaburg fishermen. And each system 30 that has been utilized since 2010, since we've been 31 doing the record of harvest surveys -- krill surveys. 32 We've been doing them since before then, but 2010 is 33 where we started getting really reliable -- where we 34 were very confident in terms of our subsistence harvest 35 numbers. 36 37 So to explain the table a little bit, 38 if you look under the column Hetta Cove you'll see both 39 the harvest and percent. Harvest is the actual number 40 of fish that were reported as being harvest whereas 41 percent is how much that harvest is proportionate to 42 the overall harvest across systems. So for instance, 43 if you look at 2010 there were 3,400 fish harvested at 44 the Hetta system, but for the year there was 5,812. So 45 the Hetta harvest comprised 58.5 percent of the overall 46 harvest by Hydaburg residents out of Hetta Cove. 47 48 A couple of trends I want to point out 49 because we're going to talk about how they are used in



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1 management decisions is the 2013 harvest data. The 2 2013 in Hetta, we only had -- this was you might 3 remember from the slide previous that I said 2013 was 4 one of the very low return years of sockeye salmon into 5 Hetta. And so we only saw approximately 650 fish being 6 harvested out of Hetta in that year, which was only 18 7 percent of the overall harvest. If you look across the 8 table you will note that in 2013 Eek Lake had a much 9 higher harvest, but we also see a good decent sized

10 harvest out of Kasook Lake, which was the highest 11 that's been utilized in 2013 with 50 percent of the 12 harvest coming from Kasook. 13 14 And then in 2018 we might make note 15 that, again when it came to escapement I noted that 16 2018 was the highest return of sockeye salmon to Hetta 17 Lake on record and that we have a harvest of 7,500 fish 18 out of Hetta Lake and that comprised 100 percent, 19 meaning subsistence fishermen did not go anywhere else 20 but Hetta that year to harvest fish. 21 22 So now I'd like to talk about a few 23 past management actions that have been taken by 24 Hydaburg Cooperative Association and partners in this 25 program. Over the next few slides we'll talk about 26 that. I think it's very important to note that at the 27 same time that sockeye salmon are coming into Cordova 28 Bay in the summer we also have pink salmon coming into 29 Cordova Bay. And if you remember from the map in Upper 30 Hetta Inlet it actually becomes very restricted, but 31 fish are actually migrating up; going up, coming down 32 and around, and then down back into Hetta Inlet or 33 Hetta Cove, sorry, and then into the lake. And that is 34 all happening at about the same time that the pink 35 salmon are coming in. And in 2005 and 2006 when 36 Alaska Department of Fish and Game was the principal 37 investigator for the Hetta project it was noted and 38 documented that the purse seine fishery, while only 39 three to five boats were going up into Upper Hetta 40 Inlet to fish pink salmon they were actually very 41 efficient at catching any salmon because they would be 42 able to come into that north side of Hetta Cove and lay 43 in their nets and then catch all of the fish that are 44 just about getting ready to round the corner and go 45 into Hetta Inlet. 46 47 So based on that and known migration 48 patterns and knowing that sockeye salmon were really 49 mixed into that biomass, the Alaska Department of Fish



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1 and Game partnered with the community and got community 2 support and worked together to have a purse seine 3 fishery exclusion zone put in along that eastern 4 shoreline, that northeastern shoreline to Hetta Cove in 5 2007, which helped having intercept some fish that are 6 just about ready to go into the lake. So while the 7 commercial fishery still happens in other parts of 8 Cordova Bay and Upper Hetta Inlet, it took the pressure 9 off of the fish that are just making that last corner

10 turn to actually be able to escape into the lake. 11 12 More recently we've been able to look 13 at the data that has been collected over the years and 14 implement some in-season management actions. I want to 15 walk you briefly through some work that we did in 2018 16 at Hetta Lake. We know from the age scale sampling 17 work that we've done that all fish that return to Hetta 18 Lake are primarily four and five-year old fish. So we 19 can look at those brood years, the strength of those 20 brood years and make kind of an estimate of what we -- 21 how strong we feel the run's going to be for that 22 particular season. And for 2018 the brood years are 23 2013 and 2014. And those escapement estimates were for 24 2013, remember we had a weir count of 2,426. It was on 25 the low end of what we'd seen over the years. And then 26 in 2014 we had a weir count of 7,191. And which is 27 sort of a moderate size, but given that we had a low 28 year class and a moderate year class we didn't project 29 that we were going to have a very strong run in 2018. 30 31 You can see on the graph on the 32 presentation that the sockeye daily count -- so if you 33 look at the X axis that shows the date as the season 34 goes through from June all the way through September 35 and on the lefthand vertical access, that's the number 36 of sockeye for any given date. So it's the daily count 37 at the time. The blue line just for references water 38 depth, but I won't be talking about that trend. 39 40 When you look at the graph you can see 41 that the early portion of the season in 2018 that we 42 didn't get out first spike until about the first week 43 of August, right about August 6th, I believe it was, so 44 up until August 6th we don't have very many fish coming 45 in on a daily basis. And then we had a spike and then 46 there was a little bit of a lag time and then we saw 47 the remainder of our run come in. 48 49 By stat week 29 the Alaska Department



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1 of Fish and Game started flying aerial surveys of part 2 of -- well, before that they were flying Cordova Bay, 3 but they started following pink salmon biomass into 4 Hetta Inlet by stat week 29 , which is mid-July. And 5 at that date timeframe they're reporting and looking at 6 whether or not they want to move up the purse seine 7 fishery into Upper Hetta Inlet. And our previous area 8 management biologist, you know, would make those 9 decisions and if the community -- if Tony Christianson

10 and myself weren't watching for openers, the opening 11 for the purse seine fishery would just happen, but 12 we've learned over the years that right about this time 13 we really need to be paying attention because we know 14 that these aerial surveys are starting to happen. And 15 so we engaged with the Alaska Department of Fish and 16 Game, meaning that I called the area management 17 biologist to talk to them about what escapement looks 18 like as they're trying to make their decisions about 19 whether or not to open the purse seine fishery in the 20 Upper Hetta Inlet portion of Cordova Bay. By this time 21 in the fishing season Cordova Bay, the lower part of 22 District 103 on that side of Cordova Bay is usually 23 already open. 24 25 Fish and Game in mid-July, at stat week 26 29, the aerial survey showed that they had a very large 27 biomass of pink salmon coming into Cordova Bay; 28 however, we had only seen -- we'd seen less than 1,000 29 fish come past the weir at that point in time. And the 30 area management biologist was getting ready to open up 31 the season and we called them and asked if we could at 32 least hold off the commercial fishery until we saw 33 1,000 sockeye salmon escape. And at the same time we 34 were really trying to keep the subsistence fishermen 35 from harvesting fish as well because we wanted to -- 36 it's a trust thing, right, like we want to -- it's all 37 voluntary, but we want to show them that we're trying 38 to do our part to get fish into that lake while they're 39 doing their part to make sure that those fish can get 40 access back down to the lake. So two weeks later in 41 stat week 31 at that first part of August they 42 continued to keep the lower portion of Cordova Bay 43 open; however, the catch, the pink catch in the lower 44 part of Cordova Bay was actually very low. So the area 45 management biologist, he decided that because there 46 wasn't escapement and to pass as well, that he agreed 47 to not open Upper Hetta Inlet at all for the rest of 48 the season. And he basically said he wasn't going to 49 make a decision to do it because the biomass actually,



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1 while it seemed to be there the catch was very low. 2 3 And so we were pretty happy once we 4 heard that, meaning we didn't have to continue to have 5 these discussions, and now it was a matter of 6 continuing to encourage subsistence harvest to be lower 7 until we had that 1,000 fish pass the weir, which 8 actually happened. And as I said earlier when I showed 9 you the tables of weir counts is that we ended up in

10 2018, once we delayed this harvest and the area 11 management biologist decided not to open Upper Hetta 12 Inlet at all, we ended up seeing the largest sockeye 13 salmon return into Hetta Lake that we have on record 14 since 2001. 15 16 And, you know, it's really difficult to 17 make inferences about why this is. Remember I said we 18 didn't project to have a very large run coming into 19 Hetta Lake at all because the brood year classes had 20 low escapement. And it just kind of reemphasizes the 21 point that we have a lot of information and we have to 22 just continue to work with what we have in trying to 23 make co-management type decisions with all of the 24 managers over time. 25 26 I just briefly wanted to show this 27 graph. It's just another depiction of the run timing 28 of sockeye salmon into Hetta Lake because it influences 29 our decision on a couple of other management actions 30 that I want to cover. It's kind of a messy graph, but 31 the main two points to this graph is it reiterates over 32 time, from 2014 to 2019, that a bulk of the sockeye 33 salmon come back into Hetta Lake after, like towards 34 the end of July, beginning of August at that time that 35 we're making management decisions about commercial 36 fishing openers. 37 38 The second point that I want to make 39 about the run timing on this graph is that if you look 40 at the red, which is depicted by the year 2017, it's 41 really -- 2017 is the only year that we actually see 42 the early portion of the run actually being there in 43 any kind of number. So Hetta Lake is what's considered 44 a bimodal system. We have an early run and a late run 45 of sockeye salmon that are genetically different from 46 one another. The beginning of the run actually -- the 47 June and July returns is predominantly the stream 48 spawners out of the lake and the August to September is 49 predominantly the lake shore spawners out of the lake.



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1 So they are a different type and over time we have 2 known and we have seen that the stream spawners or the 3 June and July returns to Hetta Lake have been 4 completely diminished through -- mainly because there 5 is not a huge amount of stream spawning areas in Hetta 6 Lake and there's a much greater portion of lake shore 7 to be able to spawn on. 8 9 So just to recap on this slide, we're

10 just trying to show that a majority of the run comes 11 after the 1st of August. And 2017 we did see a little 12 jump back up in our early portion of the run. 13 14 Okay. So I want to talk a little bit 15 about management actions that we've taken as they 16 pertain to the subsistence harvest at these systems. 17 18 In 2018 we had been running the Eek 19 Lake project for three previous years and some of the 20 data that we've been seeing is depicted on the graph 21 that is shown on this slide. In 2015 you will see the 22 blue bars. The blue bars represent the number of 23 salmon that returned to Eek Lake. The red bars 24 represent the number of sockeye salmon that were 25 harvested out of Eek Lake. So in 2015 we see 700 fish 26 returning and 139 fish being harvested. 27 28 In 2016 you will see that we saw 164 29 fish counted at the weir and there were 173 harvested. 30 And then in 2017 there were 300 fish that were counted 31 past the weir and 216 fish that were harvested. I will 32 reiterate that we aren't 100 percent confident in our 33 weir counts, but we also know from the traditional 34 knowledge that Eek is a very small sockeye salmon 35 system. It has traditionally not had very large number 36 of sockeye salmon coming back. Out of these three 37 years of being able to do this comparison, because Eek 38 is so close to the community of Hydaburg it tends to be 39 the first system fished. And, you know, subsistence 40 users will actually go to Eek and try to harvest there 41 before they concentrate their efforts out at Hetta, 42 which is further away, takes more gas, takes more time. 43 44 So Hydaburg Cooperative Association 45 decided to do a voluntary closure of Eek sockeye 46 subsistence harvest based on this information. And so 47 we developed this flyer and posted it around the 48 community. And then Tony Christianson went door-to- 49 door and talked to the people that are known



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1 subsistence harvesters in the community to basically go 2 over the data to show them and make the case that 3 asking for this voluntary closure is what's in the best 4 interest for fish. 5 6 (Teleconference interference - Mr. 7 Schroeder's phone line not muted) 8 9 MS. NEEDHAM: Essentially we're only

10 asking people to wait until 1,000 fish are counted past 11 the weir before they start subsistence harvesting. 12 That number is (indiscernible)we're not trying to 13 diminish their opportunity, but we're just trying to 14 assure that we get some kind of escapement before we do 15 the harvest. 16 17 And I'm happy to report that absolutely 18 zero effort in 2018 happened in Eek Lake because of 19 this education and outreach (indiscernible) 20 21 (Teleconference interference ongoing - 22 Mr. Schroeder) 23 24 MS. NEEDHAM: .....and ask them to be 25 able to do this. It takes a huge amount of trust for 26 us to ask people not to go and get fish when you have a 27 system so close that they have used for most of their 28 lives. The fishermen that are fishing it now have used 29 Eek Lake for most of their lives. 30 31 Okay. Switching back to Hetta, in 2019 32 we actually took some in-season management actions for 33 Hetta Lake as well. I want to recap that Hetta has two 34 runs of sockeye salmon. We have the June and July 35 portion that are the stream spawners and the August 36 portion that are the lake shore spawners. And 37 traditionally, historically Hydaburg usually gears up 38 and gets ready to go do sockeye salmon subsistence 39 harvesting the last part of June or right around the 40 4th of July. And because we've been seeing over the 41 past years that a majority of that run comes after 42 August 1st, we decided that this season in light of 43 what happened in 2018 where all of the runs came after 44 and it was a big year, that we really needed to start 45 asking subsistence users to think about holding off and 46 not harvesting that early portion of the run as much as 47 possible. Again it's a really hard thing to do because 48 we're asking people not to go and utilize the system 49 that they have always utilized for sockeye salmon. So



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1 we had to do another -- we did another outreach effort 2 where we put together a flyer that asked people to 3 voluntarily delay harvest at Hetta until there's 1,000 4 fish past the weir. 5 6 Hydaburg Cooperative Association 7 considers themselves very fortunate to continue to have 8 a weir operation because if we did not have a weir 9 operation we wouldn't be able to ask community members

10 to do this because we wouldn't know how many fish are 11 escaping in any given year. On the education and 12 outreach flyer that's on this slide I will point out 13 the graph that is on there. This basically represents 14 sockeye salmon that have come into the Hetta Lake by 15 year, so across the X axis is the -- or the horizontal 16 access is each year from 2005 to 2018. And then on the 17 vertical axis is actually the percent of the fish 18 return. Blue bars represent the weir count before 19 August 1 and the red bars represent the weir count 20 after August 1. 21 22 So, again, it's in percent, so this is 23 the percent number of fish. If you look at the year 24 2017, that was the year on that really messy graph that 25 I tried to show you that showed you that they had red 26 bars in the early portion -- we had some fish back in 27 the early portion of the run and that's that 2017 year 28 where the blue bar is the only year that it was larger 29 than the red bar. We had more fish coming in on that 30 early portion of the run. And then of course 31 proportionally in 2018 we had very few fish before 32 August 1st. And then the entirety of our biggest 33 return on record was after August 1st. 34 35 So being able to have the data like 36 this and represented in a simple graph and being able 37 to go door-to-door to the people who are out on the 38 harvest grounds doing subsistence harvest of sockeye 39 salmon, we can have a strong education program and have 40 these delays of harvest. 41 42 In, Hydaburg, for 2019 the first 43 recorded subsistence harvest action happened on July 44 20th. We tried to hold the community off as much as 45 possible. July 20th was before we had 1,000 fish pass 46 the weir, but the effort was very low. The catch was 47 very low. By July 20th people are ready to actually be 48 catching these sockeye salmon to bring back into their 49 communities and we can only the masses off for so long.



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1 To be honest, I consider it a win that we were able to 2 delay harvest that long, until the third week of July, 3 because as I mentioned most people are ready, moving 4 their boats, moving their seine nets at the first part 5 of July and hoping to fish and catch salmon early. 6 7 The other thing that's a little bit new 8 with the Hetta Lake management is that we have a new 9 area management biologist out of the Ketchikan

10 district, Bo (indiscernible). And for the first time 11 since I have been working with Hydaburg the Alaska 12 Department of Fish and Game and the area management 13 biologist called us at the first part of July to talk 14 about all of our historical information and what trends 15 we were seeing. And by mid-July we had talked about 16 the delay in harvest that we had -- the closure to Eek 17 and the delay of harvest that we asked Hydaburg 18 residents to follow for Hetta Lake. And I really feel 19 like communication was at least two times, if not three 20 times a week with the area management biologist for 21 2019. And I think that we have a really strong and 22 great relationship with that new area management 23 biologist and I feel like he's really taking the data 24 that has been collected through this Fisheries Resource 25 Monitoring Program seriously and utilizing it in the 26 decisions that they are making. He did not open the 27 commercial purse seine fishery until the end of July, 28 after we saw 1,000 fish go by the weir. And he called 29 us almost daily as it was getting closer and closer to 30 find to whether or not rains had brought fish in and 31 that we got the escapement of 1,000 before he knew the 32 fishery run. So that relationship is going to serve us 33 all well in the future when it comes to management of 34 sockeye at Hetta Lake. 35 36 So the next slide is just a recap of 37 some of the important lessons that we've learned 38 working with Fisheries Resource Monitoring Program over 39 the years in Hydaburg. Some of these important in- 40 season management decisions can't be made without this 41 real time data. We can't delay harvest from both the 42 subsistence and commercial fisheries without knowing 43 how many fish are going into each of the systems. 44 We've also learned that the longer term data sets, 45 while they might help us evaluate trends and make 46 recommendations about the upcoming season, we have to 47 pair that information with in-season data collection 48 and make adjustments to those recommendations as they 49 happen. And an example of that was the 2018 year where



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1 we used long term trends to say that we probably were 2 not going to have a very small run and return, but in- 3 season we had to work closely as that was occurring and 4 then the final outcome in 2018 of course being that we 5 had our largest return on record. So we needed both 6 long term and ongoing data collection to be able to 7 make the decisions that we made. 8 9 Some indirect lessons is that it takes

10 time to build trust within a community to get to a 11 point where you can ask them to delay or divert harvest 12 to other systems. You know, most people in Hydaburg 13 when I first started working with Hydaburg Cooperative 14 Association didn't necessarily care about the data. 15 Maybe they didn't understand it. Maybe it wasn't being 16 presented well. But now that, you know, it's being 17 shared in these ways and these educational tools and 18 graphs are being put back out in the community we're 19 seeing a lot of cooperation and a lot of peer checking. 20 So some fishermen when they see other fishermen going 21 and know that we don't have 1,000 fish past the weir 22 yet will actually even ask their peers not to go and 23 harvest and to hold off as long as possible. But it 24 has taken years to get to that point where the 25 community trusts in the information that we're 26 collecting. 27 28 So it also takes time, as I kind of 29 briefly mentioned with the Eek portion of our project, 30 is it takes time to get projects up and running 31 efficiently and being able to meet effective and 32 collect accurate data so that we can use it with 33 management decisions. Again, we don't have large 34 confidence in the Eek numbers that we're producing. We 35 feel that we know that Eek is a low return because 36 historical knowledge and traditional knowledge have 37 told us that it's a very small run. But we really 38 don't have a strong data set yet as to how small that 39 is. 40 41 Having that presence out there though 42 is helping us build that trust in the community that 43 we've talked about and the community is able to see 44 what we are (indiscernible) subsistence harvest hasn't 45 occurred at Eek Lake over the past two seasons. 46 47 Just quickly some future directions. I 48 just wanted to let you guys know that Hydaburg 49 Cooperative Association received upcoming funding to



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1 continue the Eek Lake project, as well as add in the 2 starting to look at Kasook Lake. I think at the 3 beginning of the presentation when we went over the 4 data tables I pointed out that at times that Hetta Lake 5 has a very low return. People go farther for 6 harvesting their fish. And that one year Kasook Lake 7 represented 50 percent of the harvest that came from 8 Hydaburg, but we know very little about what is 9 occurring out at Kasook Lake. We don't know about run

10 timing. We don't know about numbers and so we're going 11 to do some mark/recapture efforts out at Kasook Lake 12 starting in 2020. 13 14 (Teleconference interference ongoing - 15 Mr. Schroeder) 16 17 MS. NEEDHAM: Hey, Bob. If you can 18 hear us, your phone needs to be put on mute. I only 19 have like two more points to make. I don't know if you 20 can hear or the RAC can hear or not, but your phone is 21 not on mute. 22 23 (Teleconference interference ongoing - 24 Mr. Schroeder) 25 26 MS. NEEDHAM: For Hetta Lake, we are 27 funded for another couple of years and then we will be 28 reapplying for Fisheries Resource Monitoring Program. 29 We completely understand that money has been tight and 30 some folks have been talking about the fact that Hetta 31 Lake has been running for a very long time and we have 32 a long term data set here, but there are other systems 33 that need to be monitored and evaluated. We would like 34 to make the argument that Hetta Lake be continued to be 35 monitored and that maybe as we're testing some new 36 technologies in the region such as EDNA, environmental 37 DNA, that they be tested alongside our system. 38 39 Whether it be in Sitka, like the long 40 term project at Klag or in Hydaburg with the long term 41 project at Hetta so that we can determine whether or 42 not these new technologies correlate with counts that 43 we know that are effective, efficient, and accurate. 44 And so our next proposal for Fisheries Resource 45 Monitoring Program out at Hetta may include some of 46 this. We obviously have a lot of discussions to still 47 have about what those newer technologies might look 48 like, but we will be making a pitch for continuing to 49 monitor Hetta Lake sockeye systems in the future.



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1 Thank you for sticking with me. I 2 think I probably went a lot longer than I had 3 originally intended, but at this time, Mr. Chair, I'd 4 like to find out whether or not Mr. Christianson was 5 able to call into the phone and then if we don't hear 6 from him, I'm happy to take any questions. 7 8 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Yeah. 9 Thank you, Cathy.

10 11 First of all, Bob Schroeder, if you can 12 hear me, I think your phone is not muted, we can all 13 hear you in the background. 14 15 Cathy, who was that you were waiting to 16 see if they called in? 17 18 MS. NEEDHAM: Tony Christianson from 19 Hydaburg Cooperative Association has been trying to 20 call in all morning. And he is the principal 21 investigator for this project so I just wanted to see 22 if he ever made it on the phone. 23 24 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Are you 25 there, Tony? 26 27 (No comment) 28 29 MS. PERRY: Mr. Chair, this is DeAnna. 30 31 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Go ahead, 32 DeAnna. 33 34 MS. PERRY: I did reach out to Tony and 35 he said he had made several attempts and was going to 36 give it one more try. He does have some other 37 teleconferences scheduled, but he said he would give it 38 another try. It doesn't sound like he was able to get 39 in. 40 41 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. So yeah, 42 thanks for that really detailed presentation, Cathy. 43 It really illustrates the power of information. What 44 you can do when you have good information. So I'm sure 45 there are a lot of other streams and communities that 46 wish that they could have as much information as we 47 have for Hetta and Klag, I think was the one we heard 48 about yesterday. Really valuable stuff. 49



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1 So I don't know if there's any 2 questions for Cathy. I'll go to the Council members. 3 4 Frank Wright, any questions? 5 6 MR. WRIGHT: No. Just a comment. You 7 had a lot of information and I think that because the 8 Community of Hydaburg is protecting their resource that 9 the numbers that come out of there and going into the

10 community and telling them we need to hold off on their 11 subsistence gathering, the project needs to continue. 12 Otherwise, you know, without the numbers and without 13 the community knowing that there's low numbers they 14 would be harvesting when they should be holding back. 15 16 That's all I have Mr. Chair. 17 18 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Thank you, 19 Frank. 20 21 Mike Douville, question or comment? 22 23 MR. DOUVILLE: Just a comment. Thanks 24 Cathy. I'd keep an eye on Hetta. 25 26 And just some general information. 27 This book that I have says the fair estimate for the 28 capacity of the stream would be 4,000 fish and that 29 would be Kasook. They took like 1,000 fish a year 30 there for the cannery. They just estimated at that 31 time, and this was the 1890s. It was never a big 32 producer, along with Eek at that time was about 7,000 33 that they would take. But the big producer was of 34 course Hetta. And it produced about 50,000 a year for 35 the Klawock cannery. And the high year was 104,000. 36 Hunter Bay had the same capability with 96,000 one year 37 and 114,000, but we're looking at a tiny portion of 38 what these streams used to produce. And this is a book 39 called Salmon and Salmon Fisheries of Alaska. It was 40 printed in 1898. And I have an original copy, which I 41 treasure, but it has a lot of information on all the 42 streams in Southeast clear up to Bristol Bay. 43 44 Thanks for your presentation, Cathy. 45 46 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Thank you, 47 Mike, for that information. 48 49 Any comment, Cathy?



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1 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 2 Thank you, Mr. Douville, for that. 3

4 I'm aware of the reference and it

5 actually does do a good job showing the amount of catch

6 out of the systems around the turn of the century. And

7 it's been very useful to know that they supported

8 (indiscernible)..... 9

10 (Teleconference interference ongoing -

11 Mr. Schroeder) 12

13 MS. NEEDHAM: .....seeing a fracture of

14 what has been returning in recent years. And I would

15 point out, you know, some of those. I showed a graph

16 -- or no, sorry, I showed a table that had five systems

17 that harvest has come out of since we've been

18 documenting harvest in 2010, but only include five of

19 the sixteen traditionally important sockeye systems. 20

21 And, you know, we focus on -- in our

22 programs we're focusing on the systems that are just

23 the closest to Hydaburg that they access. And I don't

24 want anybody to think some of those other systems don't

25 have interest or harvest out of them. It's just that

26 in more recent times if there are fish closest to

27 Hydaburg, people from Hydaburg will go and get the ones

28 that are the closest to the community. 29

30 So, yeah, I just wanted to point that

31 out. And thank you for putting those numbers forward,

32 Mr. Douville. I appreciate that. 33


35 Mike. 36

37 How about Bob Schroeder. Any questions

38 for Cathy? 39

40 (No comment) 41

42 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: How about Albert

43 Howard. Any questions? 44

45 MR. HOWARD: I have a couple, Mr.

46 Chair. 47

48 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yes. Go ahead,

49 Albert.



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1 MR. HOWARD: Yeah. I just think it's 2 interesting. Mr. Chair, I think this type of report we 3 should have for each area. This has so much 4 information that's useful versus other reports we've 5 seen. 6 7 My first question will be how was 8 traditional knowledge used in this report. And I agree 9 that it should always be a part of managing a resource.

10 Not necessarily the end all, be all, but working with 11 the area biologist and seeing how they both are 12 consistent. So how is it used in this report. That's 13 the first question. 14 15 Second question is how did you get the 16 Department to close the area till there was 1,000 fish? 17 The reason I ask that was everyone's aware there used 18 to be an extra-territorial petition in. And in that 19 process we asked if certain areas can be closed until 20 there's a certain amount of fish past the weirs here in 21 Angoon and we were told no because there's an early, 22 late, and fall run. There's three different runs. 23 Actually, we were told that they don't open seining 24 until after our fish have gone through. So that's two 25 questions. 26 27 And I think all of these reports should 28 have travel patterns in them. So I will start with 29 those. 30 31 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 32 33 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 34 Mr. Albert, I'll try to cover both of these and please 35 let me know if I missed one of them. 36 37 The first one was about traditional 38 knowledge and how it was used in the report. The 39 Langdon Sanderson document that was compiled and 40 published in 2009 basically took interviews from elders 41 and families to go around and document each of the 16 42 systems that the village, which is now Hydaburg, but we 43 all -- that was a compilation of three to four other 44 Haida villages from the past. That knowledge was 45 documented in that report. 46 47 And the important parts that we used in 48 terms of management is overall the strength of the run 49 that each of those systems may have had. And then so



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1 if they're large producing systems that produce larger 2 numbers of salmon versus systems that produce lesser 3 number of sockeye salmon. And then we also -- so now 4 we know if it's a small system or a large system. If 5 it was a large system and we're seeing a little -- just 6 a few fish coming back to it, we know there's a 7 problem. Or it's a small system and we're seeing a few 8 fish coming back to it, it could be because it's just 9 been a small system. And so we're able to use that

10 traditional knowledge for comparative pieces of 11 information like that, just in terms of strength of 12 run. 13 14 Another way we use it is harvest 15 patterns. How do you divert harvest. So, you know, 16 Eek system is very close. It's a 20-minute boat ride 17 away from Hydaburg. And we don't have very many fish 18 coming back there and so we can talk to families in 19 Hydaburg and say -- when we ask them to divert their 20 subsistence harvest we can point out, you know, well 21 Kasook -- you can get to Kasook in about a half hour, 22 45 minutes, and there are probably more fish there 23 based on the strength of run that we had from the past 24 and so we can divert harvest over to there or to Hetta 25 if the numbers are there. 26 27 So traditional knowledge has really 28 helped us understand historically harvest patterns and 29 we can try to show people and tell people that that's 30 how it is as we try to divert harvest in-season. 31 32 Your second question was about how do 33 we work with the Department or how do we get the 34 Department to delay the purse seine fishery until there 35 was 1,000 fish past the weir. It takes a long time to 36 basically build that trust. I think in some respects 37 it's a little bit of give and take. Part of it is that 38 I'm proactive right around the stat weeks that we know 39 that the commercial seine fleet is moving into the area 40 and I constantly call the area management biologist. 41 It's kind of like I have data and I will give it to him 42 whether he wants it or not, I guess in some respects. 43 44 And that means -- and I have that data 45 because we're able to count these fish in real time, 46 right, so if I can call the Department and say with a 47 certainly degree of confidence that Hydaburg residents 48 are not subsistence harvesting in Hetta Cove because we 49 don't have 1,000 fish past the weir, and then maybe the



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1 aerial surveys. If there is no fishermen -- 2 subsistence fishing there, then they're more apt to not 3 have a commercial opener. 4 5 I don't want to say that it's a perfect 6 system and that I'm the one that's making this happen 7 because if I feel like the -- if Tony Christianson and 8 I feel like the area management biologist is still just 9 going to open it, then we can actually start going to

10 purse seine fishermen that fish the area locally, 11 Hydaburg, and ask them to even call into the Department 12 and say, hey, we have a weir. We're counting fish. We 13 know there's not 1,000. We think we'd like to get some 14 fish into the lake before we start scooping them all up 15 in the fishery. 16 17 So it takes a long time to build that 18 relationship and it takes having a data set like we've 19 been able to collect over the years that has a certain 20 degree of reliability and accuracy to it so that we can 21 make those phone calls and have that dialogue and build 22 that trust as much as possible. It's not perfect, but 23 I feel like in the last few years we've definitely been 24 able to work a little better hand-in-hand. And it's 25 all voluntary, right, none of this is in regulations. 26 We're trying to handle this at a local level by 27 building that trust and not put regulatory restrictions 28 on anyone really. Just managing it in-season. 29 30 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 31 32 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Did you 33 have a follow-up, Albert? Go ahead and ask it. 34 35 MR. HOWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm 36 wondering where the travel patterns came from. We've 37 had travel patterns given to us and taken away, so we 38 do know the travel patterns of sockeye here in 39 Southeast or at least on the northern end of Chatham, 40 so I'm wondering where your information on travel 41 patterns came from. I know it's useful in making your 42 case. 43 44 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 45 And, Albert, thanks for that question. 46 47 So in the traditional ecological 48 knowledge document that Langdon and Sanderson published 49 in 2009, they talked about it from doing interviews



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1 with elders. I honestly don't know exactly when those 2 interviews happened, but they were previous to when 3 Langdon and Bob Sanderson came back to finish that 4 project up and published that document in 2009. 5 6 So we started there and then we took 7 maps into community meetings and said -- you know, just 8 basically showed them. Kind of hand drew on them with 9 some key community members. People from families who

10 owned those systems historically. So some of those 11 families are still around. And I don't know if you 12 remember in the presentation when I said there were 16 13 sockeye systems and different families owned different 14 systems prior to, you know, Statehood and the Territory 15 of Alaska. So those families are still around and so 16 we were able to talk to fishermen -- sorry, not 17 fishermen, to talk to those families and ask them if we 18 had depicted what was represented in the interviews 19 well. And then finally just a gut check with the 20 commercial fishermen that have fished Cordova Bay that 21 are from Hydaburg when Hydaburg had a lot more 22 fishermen. Whether or not they were still -- whether 23 or not that pattern was likely and still held through. 24 25 So we hand drew those maps and then I 26 took them back and actually went into GIS and put the 27 arrows with stuff on the map that we depicted. And 28 we've used that map in our published reports since then 29 to talk about these harvest patterns, so now that map 30 is actually directly out of Hydaburg's published 31 reports. 32 33 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 34 35 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Anything 36 else, Albert? 37 38 MR. HOWARD: Just a comment, Mr. Chair. 39 I think we should use this as a template for any other 40 reports that get presented to the Council. I would 41 have to say this is probably one of the best reports 42 I've seen. Everything within the report supports every 43 other part of the report. You could see where they 44 closed for commercial fishing was also one of the years 45 they had the biggest escapement, so that also gives you 46 justification for them not to open it until after 1,000 47 fish go by because they have a record showing that this 48 is what happens when you don't fish. 49



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1 So I think this is something we should 2 consider as a template for all reports that come to us.

3 That gives us almost 100 percent of the information we

4 need to make decisions on what to do next as far as all

5 the systems within Southeast. 6

7 So I appreciate this report. I think

8 it's well done. 9



13 Albert. 14

15 MR. DOOLITTLE: Mr. Chair, this is Tom

16 Doolittle. 17

18 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Go ahead,

19 Tom. 20

21 MR. DOOLITTLE: Yeah. I have Tony

22 Christianson on another cell phone that I'm going to

23 try to patch into you guys Bush style, between my phone

24 and his phone. So if it's okay, I think this was the

25 time when Tony needed to get in here. 26

27 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yes. If it works,

28 go ahead. Give it a try. 29

30 MR. DOOLITTLE: Okie-dokie. Tony. 31

32 MR. CHRISTIANSON: Hello. Hello,

33 everybody. 34

35 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Hi, Tony. You're

36 a little weak. I don't know if you can do something to

37 get a little louder. 38

39 MR. DOOLITTLE: Tony, are you there? 40

41 MR. CHRISTIANSON: Yeah. I'm here. I

42 can't hear them though. I can hear you real well Tom. 43

44 MR. DOOLITTLE: Okay. 45

46 MR. CHRISTIANSON: Can they hear me?

47 I'm not sure where they were at in the presentation. 48

49 MR. DOOLITTLE: Yeah. No one is



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1 talking right now, so I'll let Don talk to you to see 2 how the connection is working. 3 4 MR. CHRISTIANSON: Okay. Sounds good. 5 Thank you, Tom. 6 7 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. You're 8 coming in better now, Tony. Yeah. Cathy has given her 9 presentation and she was taking questions from the

10 Council. So if you have anything to add, go ahead. 11 12 MR. CHRISTIANSON: Oh, okay. Yeah. 13 Well, I'm just here for questions as well. I 14 appreciate the Council -- the Regional Advisory Council 15 for taking the time to listen to our presentation and 16 thank you to Cathy for doing that for us. 17 18 And if there are any additional 19 questions, we always really appreciate the Regional 20 Advisory Council support and the information needs that 21 come out of that project and just really want to, you 22 know, speak to the importance of us being able to use 23 that as a good way to stay in contact with our 24 management. It's been really a -- play a meaningful 25 role in, you know, the day-to-day and the year-to-year 26 management of the resources in the area and it's been a 27 real critical tool in helping to offset the 28 interception of our resources, you know. And then us 29 taking a real social role in that as well as reducing 30 our harvest and then, you know, self-imposing closures 31 and stuff. 32 33 So this FRMP project has been a real 34 game changer in our community and I'm just happy that, 35 you know, we get to continue to be a part of the bigger 36 subsistence information needs program. And I really 37 appreciate all of our work here today. And, you know, 38 we're experiencing a lot of technical difficulty in the 39 telephone world here in Hydaburg, both the long 40 distance land lines and AT&T cell phones, and so I just 41 apologize I couldn't get on sooner. 42 43 Thank you, Tom, for that. 44 45 If there's any questions, I'm purely 46 just to -- I'm here to just answer any questions. 47 48 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Well, it 49 sounds like we could relay any questions through Tom



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1 Doolittle's phone. 2 3 I will go back. Frank or Mike 4 Douville, do you have any questions for Tony? 5 6 MR. WRIGHT: No, I don't. Thank you, 7 Mr. Chair. 8 9 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. How about

10 you, Mike? 11 12 MR. DOUVILLE: Mike Douville here. No, 13 I do not right now. 14 15 Thank you. 16 17 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Bob, any 18 questions for Tony? 19 20 (No comment) 21 22 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Albert, you got 23 any questions for Tony? 24 25 MR. HOWARD: Not at the time. I think 26 Cathy answered all my questions, so thank you, Mr. 27 Chair. 28 29 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Harold, 30 questions for Cathy or Tony? 31 32 MR. ROBBINS: I have no questions, but 33 I have a comment that it appears to me that this 34 presentation was well spent money. 35 36 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Thank you, Harold. 37 38 How about you, John? 39 40 MR. YEAGER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 41 Awesome job, Cathy. And I think that that program has 42 got a lot of headway built up and I think it's going to 43 be very useful in the future, so nice work there. 44 45 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Thank you, John. 46 47 How about you, Larry Bemis? 48 49 MR. BEMIS: Yes. I don't have any



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1 questions. I would just like to say that the 2 information put together was super great and I believe 3 that it should be followed also. 4 5 Thank you. 6 7 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. And I will 8 certainly echo those comments. 9

10 And, Cathy, this project that you and 11 Tony have been spearheading down there certainly should 12 be a template for any other projects that, you know, 13 get funded. You know, through our whole presentation I 14 couldn't help but keep thinking about the discussions 15 we had concerning Kanalku and subsistence harvest and 16 commercial harvest in the area and how valuable 17 information like this would have been to that 18 discussion. And, you know, moving forward we still 19 have the same situation there. It hasn't totally been 20 resolved, as Albert continues to remind us. And, yeah, 21 this can certainly be the way things should happen. So 22 we will continue on with this project hopefully and be 23 able to expand upon it. 24 25 Do we have any..... 26 27 MR. HOWARD: Mr. Chair. 28 29 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Go ahead, 30 Albert. 31 32 MR. HOWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 33 Good afternoon, Tony, this is Albert Howard in Angoon. 34 I would like to show this to the tribal council here in 35 Angoon, but first I would like to ask your permission 36 to do so. 37 38 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. I don't 39 know if Tony can hear. 40 41 Tom, can you relay that to Tony if you 42 have that ability? 43 44 MS. NEEDHAM: Mr. Chair. 45 46 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Go ahead. 47 48 MS. NEEDHAM: This is Cathy. I would 49 be happy to get that permission and relay that to Tony



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1 and have Tony send the presentation to Mr. Howard with 2 his approval to show his council. 3 4 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Very good. Thanks 5 for that, Cathy. 6 7 Are there any other questions or 8 comments from the Council. 9

10 (No comments) 11 12 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: I'm not hearing 13 any. Yeah. Once again thank you, Cathy. Very 14 informative. That was real valuable. 15 16 Right now it just happens to be right 17 up at noon, which would be a good time to recess for 18 lunch. 19 20 MS. SAWERS: Will you be taking any 21 public comments or questions really quick. 22 23 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Questions on this 24 presentation or something else? 25 26 MS. SAWERS: This presentation. Yes. 27 28 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Sure. We can 29 entertain that. Go ahead. State your name though for 30 the record. 31 32 MS. SAWERS: Okay. My name is Rebekah 33 Sawers and I live in Hoonah. 34 35 And I just want to say that I support 36 you, Cathy, on your work on customary and traditional 37 knowledge in the maps you used and for the Haida people 38 who maintain the abundant and accountability and the 39 ability to pass down from the grandmothers and 40 grandfathers in Hydaburg. And I'm so thankful that 41 you've given the Council this example. And I just want 42 to say that sometimes U.S. governments or programs are 43 here to sustain, but not to ever back the full capacity 44 within traditional use areas. And that in traditional 45 times the salmon was so abundant it's too valuable to 46 describe. And this traditional use in management has 47 already prove effective, Cathy, in your studies, which 48 is so amazing. And the community is doing something 49 about this and that's something to take note about.



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1 And I think that's really -- they're refusing their 2 food to maintain the future. 3 4 So thank you. 5 6 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Any comment, 7 Cathy. 8 9 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you. I will make

10 sure that your kind words are shared with Hydaburg 11 Cooperative Association. 12 13 MS. CULP: This is Wanda Culp. I would 14 really like to make a quick comment on this. 15 16 On the other side of the scale on this 17 program that's working so well is that Neva River and 18 Excursion Inlet in Hoonah territory is here. Our 19 Sockeye River showed a negative at the weir count last 20 summer because as we all know we've been in a low tide. 21 So I'm wondering when the program is like this, the 22 Forest Service is in charge of it and the Hoonah Indian 23 Association is running this program, what happens now 24 when one of our important streams are not producing and 25 not being able to get to the lake. It's also humpies 26 or pink salmon streams as well and there's commercial 27 fishing in Exclusion Inlet, too. So it doesn't seem 28 like the negative count to our sockeye salmon has come 29 to the attention of the State of Alaska. 30 31 And I'd also like to quickly 32 acknowledge that Steve Langdon is a friend of mine, 33 too, as the report that Cathy was referring to also 34 includes the Hoonah Territory as well. So we're 35 connected. And we need to connect with each other, 36 Cathy. Just saying. 37 38 Thank you. 39 40 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you. 41 42 MR. DOOLITTLE: Hey, guys. Sorry for 43 the break. My phone dropped right in the middle of 44 Tony's call. And he just wanted to tell the group that 45 he appreciated all the work that everybody is doing in 46 dealing with some of the challenges of doing meetings 47 by teleconference. And so they're having some 48 communication problems down in Hydaburg. 49



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1 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Thank you, 2 Tom, for that. 3

4 I would just like to say that I'm glad

5 to hear that Wanda and Rebekah stayed on the line and

6 were able to hear that presentation from Cathy. Very

7 relevant to all of us, so I'm glad you had a chance to

8 hear that. 9

10 MS. SAWERS: Thank you. 11

12 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: So yep. Thank

13 you. 14

15 We'll take a recess for lunch. We have

16 one new item of new business to do after lunch. And

17 that would be kind of an update on this whole project,

18 which is the Fisheries Resource Management projects,

19 which is what we've been -- you know, Cathy was just

20 describing one of them. So we'll have an update on

21 what's going on with the whole program. That would

22 conclude new business. 23

24 We have a presentation -- a scientific

25 presentation on ocean acidification in regards to

26 herring spawn. DeAnna, I think maybe we'll do that

27 presentation after we finish the other new business.

28 The Resource Management project now if you could get

29 word to the person who's going to do that presentation. 30

31 And then for the rest of the afternoon

32 we will get started on our proposals, which is an

33 important action item. And I will ask the Council to

34 kind of be thinking of some ways, seeing as how we're

35 working over the telephone here, we may not be able to

36 do things the way we were used to doing them in the

37 past where we break up into groups and maybe work on

38 different proposals for our different areas. We might

39 be able to do that with separate phone lines somehow.

40 Be thinking of ideas there about how we might best

41 accomplish that. 42

43 And we'll recess till 1:00 o'clock. 44

45 (Off record) 46

47 (On record) 48

49 MS. PERRY: All right, Mr. Chair. It



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1 looks as though on the line we have Frank Wright, 2 Michael Douville, yourself, Harold Robbins, John 3 Yeager, and Cathy Needham. You do have a quorum at 4 this time. Six out of ten members present. 5 6 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Thanks, 7 DeAnna. I think we can get started. Hopefully the 8 others will show up. 9

10 We're going to start with a 11 presentation on Fisheries Resource Monitoring Program. 12 Is that person ready to go. 13 14 MR. RISDAHL: Yes, Chairman Hernandez. 15 This is Greg Risdahl. I'm here. 16 17 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Good 18 afternoon, Greg. Why don't you go ahead and get 19 started with your presentation. 20 21 MR. RISDAHL: Thank you very much. Mr. 22 Chair, members of the Council, this is Greg Risdahl. I 23 am the Subsistence Fisheries Division leader and the 24 acting Deputy Assistant Regional Director for OSM. I 25 will be providing a short update on two programmatic 26 areas. 27 28 First is an update on the fisheries 29 regulatory cycle and the second is for our Fisheries 30 Resource Monitoring Program or as people know it the 31 FRMP. These are not action items for the Council. 32 33 Every two years during the spring the 34 Federal Subsistence Board calls for proposals to change 35 Federal regulations for the subsistence take of fish 36 and shellfish on Federal public lands and waters. The 37 Board is now calling for proposals for the 2021 to 2013 38 regulatory cycle. You can find a flyer starting on 39 page 68 of your books that describes how to submit a 40 regulatory proposal. The Board will consider proposals 41 to change Federal fish and shellfish seasons, harvest 42 limits, methods of harvest, and customary and 43 traditional use determinations through April 20th of 44 this year. 45 46 There are a number of ways that you can 47 submit proposals. If you have a fishery proposal that 48 you would like to submit as a Council or as an 49 individual you can discuss it at this meeting. You can



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1 also submit proposals to OSM through your Council 2 coordinator by hand or by mail and we can assist 3 drafting your proposals for you or with you, if you 4 like. There's also an online process more clearly on 5 the flyer in your books. 6 7 Proposals will be analyzed and 8 presented to the Council during the fall meeting cycle 9 this year for Council recommendations. Proposal

10 analyses and Council recommendations will be presented 11 to the Federal Subsistence Board for action at the 12 January 2021 fisheries regulatory meeting. This 13 concludes the fishery regulatory cycle update. 14 15 The Fisheries Resource Monitoring 16 Program is in its final phase of 2020. The Federal 17 Subsistence Board met on January 28th through the 30th 18 and made recommendations about the final funding plan. 19 Even though the Office of Subsistence Management has 20 not yet received its final budget allocation, the 21 assistant regional director for OSM has approved the 22 FRMP funding plan and all applicants have been notified 23 of the status of their submissions. All new 2020 FRMP 24 projects selected for funding have been put into the 25 financial assistant program prism and project funds are 26 not being obligated. 27 28 2020 FRMP cycle nearing its end. It is 29 now time for the Councils to begin to develop their 30 priority information needs or PINS for the 2022 31 Fisheries Resource Monitoring Program call for 32 proposals that will be due out in November 2020. PINs, 33 as they are known, are an important component of the 34 FRMP program as they identify issues of local concern 35 and knowledge gaps related to subsistence fisheries 36 based on input from the Regional Advisory Councils. 37 These PINS determine the types of projects that the 38 Councils for each region consider important and provide 39 a framework for evaluating project proposals. 40 41 Similar to the 2020 monitoring program 42 cycle, it is now time for Council members to volunteer 43 to meet telephonically this summer to identify 44 knowledge gaps and information needs for management of 45 subsistence fisheries within the region. Volunteers 46 would review a list of PINS from the latest FRMP cycles 47 and a list of what projects and PINS in the past then 48 discuss whether the FRMP projects have addressed the 49 PINS, the potential to re-use previous PINS and the



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1 development of new PINS to address issues the Councils 2 have identified. The results of these telephonic 3 meetings will be presented to each respective Council 4 during their fall meeting to help jumpstart discussions 5 on the topics. Councils will formally make a motion to 6 adopt priority information needs at that meeting and 7 start a whole new monitoring program funding cycle. 8 9 So at this time if anyone on the

10 Council is interested in participating and identifying 11 information needs for the region, this would be an 12 appropriate time to announce their interest. 13 14 And Mr. Chair, I turn it over to you. 15 16 Thank you. 17 18 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Thank you, 19 Greg. I will open it up to other Council members for 20 questions, but I have one right off the bat. Is there 21 any particular number of people you think would be 22 helpful as volunteers you're looking for is that kind 23 of dependent on us? 24 25 MR. RISDAHL: Mr. Chairman. For the 26 record, this is Greg Risdahl. Actually, it is entirely 27 up to you folks. And every Council is different. Some 28 Councils have been very proactive and individuals have 29 just immediately volunteered. I know another Council 30 that I listened to, the Chair more or less encouraged 31 Council members to volunteer and pretty soon everybody 32 was, you know, on some kind of a committee to help with 33 the PINS. So it's entirely up to you guys. 34 35 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. I will ask 36 the Council members if they have any questions on this 37 program and what's expected here. But first I have one 38 other question. I don't recall having this volunteer 39 call in effort before. Is this something new? 40 41 MR. RISDAHL: Mr. Chairman, Greg 42 Risdahl here. You know, I'm relatively new. This is 43 the first FRMP cycle for me. But from what I 44 understand they used to do some of this, you know, 45 active outside of the regular Council meetings, they 46 call them working groups or sub-committees and we are 47 trying to get away from using those terms because there 48 are certain rules and regulations towards FACA 49 committees that allow such committees or not.



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1 Another thing you could do is just ask 2 Terry Suminski what they have done in the past for the 3 Southeast. Because he has been here and he has seen 4 how the Council has operated in the past. 5 6 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Right. Okay. 7 Thank you for that. 8 9 And now any other Council members with

10 questions. How about we start with Cathy. 11 12 Do you have any questions, Cathy? 13 14 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 15 This is Cathy. Could we ask if Terry is on the line to 16 follow up with your question because that would be -- 17 I'm still trying to kind of figure out what we're 18 doing. 19 20 MR. RISDAHL: Mr. Chair, Vice-Chair 21 Cathy Needham, this is Greg Risdahl again. As I 22 mentioned, what Councils oftentimes do is they go back 23 to look to see what PINS they have most recently and 24 historically and reevaluated those. If there are 25 things that look like might still be of interest you 26 could take selections from those, but also certainly 27 from the community and ask what people are finding, 28 where there are some data gaps. 29 30 MS. KENNER: Hi, Mr. Chair. This is 31 Pippa Kenner also. 32 33 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Go ahead, Pippa. 34 35 MS. KENNER: Yeah. I don't really have 36 much more to add. Usually the Southeast Staff have 37 helped the Council in this teleconference that occurs I 38 believe in the last cycle, which was the 2020 cycle 39 which started in 2018, so that would have been the 40 summer over 2018, I believe the Southeast Council, all 41 the members wanted to participate and there was some 42 way of communicating with each of them. 43 44 The reason why we ask for information 45 needs is we're trying to identify data gaps and 46 information that we need to contribute to good 47 management of fisheries in Southeast, along the lines 48 of course with what Cathy Needham has just discussed. 49



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1 Then when the Council gets back 2 together again in the fall they will use this 3 information that was gathered by this group of 4 consultants meeting in teleconference to help develop 5 the priority information needs for the Southeast 6 Region. Then when we issue a notice of funding 7 opportunity, what used to be called a request for 8 proposals, we ask people to address those issues that 9 the Council has identified as priorities.

10 11 A project doesn't have to address one 12 of those priorities in order to be funded, but they 13 will be rated on their ability to describe why their 14 research is important, whether or not it's addressed 15 one of those priority information needs. 16 17 So that's how these priority 18 information needs fit into the funding process. 19 20 I thought that might help. 21 22 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Yeah. 23 Thank you, Pippa. Has Terry Suminski -- is he on this 24 call? He might answer another question there. 25 26 MR. SUMINSKI: Yeah. I'm here, Don. 27 And just to refresh the Council's..... 28 29 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. 30 31 MR. SUMINSKI: I did send the priority 32 information needs list that the Council developed last 33 time. In the past we've just done that at the fall 34 meeting. I think the last time there was a small group 35 that got together and they reviewed the list and added 36 a few systems, maybe took one off. And like I said, 37 this Council over the years has been very diligent 38 about maintaining those priorities and adding new ones 39 as they occurred. 40 41 So whether to have a teleconference in 42 the summer, I don't know how much there is to gain 43 doing that. I think we could handle it all in the fall 44 meeting like we have over the last ten years or so. 45 46 But thank you. 47 48 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Thank you, 49 Terry. That was kind of my recollection that that's



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1 usually something that we did as a Council in the fall. 2

3 I don't know if it's an effort to try

4 to maybe get a little better input during the summer.

5 I mean I could see the merit in that. Anyhow, I'll see

6 if there's any other Council members, any questions

7 here. 8

9 Go back to you, Cathy. Did you have

10 any other questions or follow up? 11

12 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

13 This is Cathy. I don't have other questions and I

14 appreciate getting clarification on that. 15

16 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: How about Larry

17 Bemis. Are you on, Larry? Did you have a question? 18

19 MS. PERRY: Mr. Chair, Larry is

20 actually in a meeting with his tribe and he will rejoin

21 us after that meeting. 22

23 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. That was

24 good of him to let us know. 25

26 John Yeager, question? 27

28 MR. YEAGER: Not at this time, Mr.

29 Chair. 30

31 Thank you. 32

33 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: How about Harold

34 Robbins. 35

36 MR. ROBBINS: I don't have any

37 questions at this time. 38

39 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Albert

40 Howard? 41

42 MR. HOWARD: I don't have anything. 43


46 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: How about Bob

47 Schroeder. 48

49 (No comment)



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1 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: No Bob. 2 3 Mike Douville? 4 5 MR. DOUVILLE: Mike Douville here. I 6 have no questions. 7 8 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Frank 9 Wright?

10 11 MR. WRIGHT: Yeah. I don't have any 12 questions. 13 14 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 15 16 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. So on the 17 agenda, this is kind of listed as an action item. I 18 don't know. But it sounds like it's kind of up to 19 individual Council members whether or not they want to 20 volunteer. 21 22 MS. KENNER: Mr. Chair, this is Pippa 23 Kenner. 24 25 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Go ahead, 26 Pippa. 27 28 MS. KENNER: Yeah. If there is an 29 action item it's a call for proposals to change fishery 30 regulations in the Federal program. 31 32 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Well, right. I 33 know that's next up on the agenda, but yeah. I don't 34 know. My agenda has an asterisk by this item, but it's 35 not sound like..... 36 37 MS. KENNER: It's a mistake. 38 39 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Oh, okay. It's 40 not sounding like we need to take action on this. It 41 sounds like it's kind of a -- if anybody on the Council 42 would like to volunteer to be on a teleconference this 43 summer to do what sounds like a preliminary discussion 44 on the PINS, the purpose of the meeting. 45 46 MS. KENNER: Yes. Yes. This is Pippa 47 again. 48 49 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Go ahead,



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1 Pippa. 2 3 MS. KENNER: Oh, I just wanted to add 4 that it is a chance for individual Council members to 5 gather information and ask questions. We have found 6 that for some Councils the fall meeting took quite a 7 lot of time to go through this process and it was 8 decided it might be helpful for..... 9

10 (Phone interruption) 11 12 MS. KENNER: Oh, I'm sorry. Did I hear 13 my name? 14 15 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: You're still on. 16 17 MS. KENNER: Oh, I'm sorry. I thought 18 I was being interrupted. 19 20 So some of the Councils did find that 21 it was kind of a long process at the fall meeting. And 22 then it might be helpful if a couple or all Council 23 members got together for an informal consultation so 24 they could gather information and ask questions about 25 the process. And then they could inform the rest of 26 their Council members at the fall meeting. 27 28 Thank you. 29 30 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Yeah. I'm 31 beginning to get the picture now. Yeah. There have 32 been times when we have spent considerable amount of 33 doing these priority information needs at our Council 34 meetings, so I think I see what you're trying to 35 accomplish here. 36 37 So maybe I will let Council members 38 kind of mull this over and we'll come back to this 39 before the meeting is over and see if anybody wants to 40 throw their name out there as a volunteer to be on a 41 teleconference. It might be helpful for their 42 particular areas if they have a specific interest. 43 44 So if it's okay with the rest of the 45 Council maybe I'll go that way. And we'll defer this 46 till later in the meeting and you guys can all think 47 about it. Does that sound okay. 48 49 MS. NEEDHAM: That sounds good to me,



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1 Mr. Chair. 2 3 MR. BEMIS: Mr. Chair, this is Larry 4 Bemis. 5 6 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Oh, Larry. 7 8 MR. BEMIS: Mr. Chair, this is Larry 9 Bemis.

10 11 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Go ahead, 12 Larry. 13 14 MR. BEMIS: Yes. I'm running over 15 through a lunch break on a special meeting with the 16 tribe and I should be done here shortly. We're in an 17 executive session. We did a one-hour lunch and it's 18 running a little late and I'll be back into the Council 19 here shortly. 20 21 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Appreciate 22 that, Larry. We have a quorum, so we're good. 23 24 MR. BEMIS: Okay. Thank you. 25 26 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: We'll listen for 27 you calling back in. 28 29 MR. BEMIS: All right. 30 31 MS. KENNER: Mr. Chair, I'm sorry. 32 This is Pippa again. I was on mute. 33 34 I just wanted to tell you that at any 35 time during this meeting or after the meeting if one of 36 the Council members would like to contact us, that 37 would be wonderful. We can move on now. 38 39 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Thank you, 40 Pippa. I'll maybe ask DeAnna to make a note there to 41 remind me before the meeting adjourns that we want to 42 maybe check back with Council members on this. 43 44 Okay. 45 46 (Phone interruption) 47 48 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: If you guys could 49 excuse me for just a moment here. Okay. Somebody got



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1 that call. 2 3 So DeAnna, we could either go to the 4 presentation from Lauren Bell or go into proposals. If 5 Lauren Bell is available now I think I might have that 6 presentation so we can concentrate on proposals for the 7 remainder of the day and maybe into tomorrow morning. 8 9 Is she available now?

10 11 MS. PERRY: Yes, Mr. Chair. She has 12 been standing by. She is ready. 13 14 And I just wanted to remind folks that 15 her presentation is one of those that was not able to 16 be uploaded, but I think I sent that out to Council 17 members and Staff. There are actually two handouts. 18 One is her presentation, so she'll be going through 19 those slides, and then another is kind of a summary. 20 And I'll let her explain that as well. 21 22 So yeah, I believe Lauren is ready to 23 go as soon as the Council members have their materials 24 in front of them. 25 26 MS. BELL: Yes. Hi, this is Lauren. 27 Can everyone hear me. 28 29 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: I hear you fine, 30 Lauren. 31 32 MS. BELL: All right. Good deal. 33 Well, thank you very much for letting me join you 34 today. I will just give a little introduction while 35 you all have a chance to pull up the slides. 36 37 So my name is Lauren Bell. I live over 38 here in Sitka. I've lived her for the last couple of 39 years. I grew up in Homer, so been an Alaskan for my 40 whole life. I am currently a PhD student through 41 University of California, Santa Cruz, but I'm based 42 here in Sitka full time. And I am part of a lab that 43 studies climate change impacts to coastal marine 44 ecosystems with my focus up here in Southeast Alaska. 45 46 And to be perfectly frank, my focus is 47 much more on lower trophic levels. My expertise is in 48 seaweed responses and in vertebrate responses to global 49 change, but what I'm going to be sharing with you today



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1 is a study that I took on last year to look 2 specifically at Pacific herring roe response to some of 3 the changes that we expect in the Gulf of Alaska in the 4 coming century. This was funded through the North 5 Pacific Research Board and was the first study of its 6 kind here in Alaskan waters, so there was a lot of just 7 kind of seeing if we could pull it off, which we did. 8 And see where we wanted to move forward with that. 9

10 So these are preliminary results. None 11 of what I am sharing with you today has been published 12 yet, but it is pretty exciting work and stuff that 13 we're going to continue to move forward. And I think 14 it's worth sharing and getting the news out there about 15 what we're seeing. 16 17 So I'll go ahead and move forward 18 unless folks are still pulling things up. So I'll try 19 and keep you updated on the slides as I move through. 20 I know not everybody maybe has access to the slides so 21 I'll try and be descriptive as I move. If you do have 22 access to that summary document I'm basically just 23 going to be covering kind of what's included in there 24 and our results. 25 26 So moving to the second slide. My lab 27 kind of combines both laboratory and field work. We do 28 a lot of diving in Sitka Sound. Our subtidal work is 29 based around the sensors that we put out. We were one 30 of the first labs in 2015 to try and start putting out 31 these continuous benthic sensors to look at ocean 32 acidification and warming, how things fluctuate 33 throughout the year naturally now, and develop a 34 longstanding time series so we could sense these 35 changes in the future. 36 37 Prior to 2015 a majority of this kind 38 of work was done out in the ocean basins (ph), so we 39 kind of jumped on a big effort that started up around 40 2015, along with many partners through University of 41 Alaska and others throughout the State to start 42 characterizing coastal environments which you can 43 imagine are much more variable than those basins. 44 45 So this is a picture of one of the 46 sensors that we have out in the kelp forest here in 47 Sitka Sound that we are measuring oxygen pH temperature 48 going into year round at 30-minute intervals. And part 49 of what we're interested in is this projection that in



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1 the Gulf of Alaska we're expecting that waters by 2100 2 are going to warm by 4 degrees Celsius and decrease in 3 pH by .4 units, which is representative of about 150 4 percent increase in acidity of these waters. 5 6 So we're doing this field monitoring, 7 but we also, if you move to the next slide, are 8 building pretty elaborate systems in the lab in order 9 to simulate what these conditions are going to be at

10 the (phone cuts out) simulate these conditions and then 11 put organisms (phone cuts out) that we are interested 12 in in these conditions and see how they respond. And 13 really our lab's goal is not just to focus on a single 14 sea urchin and how it responds, but really start to 15 build up an entire ecosystem's response knowing that of 16 course these species are not acting in isolation and 17 they are interacting, and how those interactions are 18 going to shape what our future ecosystems and marine 19 ecosystems are going to look like. 20 21 So if you toggle forward to the next 22 slide, what I'm trying to give you a sense of here is 23 kind of what this crazy laboratory set up is that we 24 have. This is currently housed in the basement of the 25 Sitka Sound Science Center over here. We built up this 26 system that looks a bit ragtag, but it is a pretty neat 27 system in that it is mobile. We can move it around if 28 we need to. We can modify it however we want for the 29 species that we want. And basically what we're able to 30 do is bring in seawater from Sitka Sound. We can heat 31 it or chill it to whatever desired temperatures we 32 want. We can add carbon dioxide gas, bubbling into the 33 seawater to simulate ocean acidification. We can mix 34 those different waters in whatever combination we like 35 and so they flow into experimental tanks that we then 36 raise organisms. So this is a bit of a snapshot of 37 what that looks like and how we can maintain it over 38 time. 39 40 Moving to the next slide. So going 41 into this experiment that we ran last spring, as many 42 of you guys are aware, our herring roe here in Sitka 43 Sound and elsewhere in Southeast are weighed on a wide 44 variety of substrates, so of course Fish and Game has 45 kept track of this over time and we can go ahead and 46 see how many different substrates they're laid on. A 47 lot of these are photosynthesizing substrates like 48 giant kelp. Their spring spawn takes place usually 49 from the middle of March to the beginning of April and



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1 that spawn time frame carries that egg development 2 through the majority of April in most years. 3 4 Around this time specifically in these 5 kelp forest ecosystems or rocky coastal ecosystems we 6 know that the typical salt seawater temperature is 7 around 67 degrees Celsius and the pH is around 7.9 to 8 8.2 pH units. And again we know this from are 9 longstanding sensors that have been in these systems.

10 11 So if you move to the next slide, this 12 equates to a future temperature of around 10 to 11 13 degrees that's projected for Sitka Sound if we 14 incorporate that 4 degree increase in temperature and a 15 drop to about pH 7.5. So, you know, what does that 16 mean for these developing herring roe. That's what we 17 wanted to figure out. 18 19 There have been two prior studies that 20 were looking at global change in Pacific herring roe. 21 There was a Master's thesis in Puget Sound that had a 22 similar kind of design to look at warming and 23 acidification that as far as I know was never 24 published. Also, researchers in 2010 at NOAA in Auke 25 Bay did test the effect of acidification on herring roe 26 and both of these studies did find impacts to larval 27 condition, to size, and to mortality rate, but neither 28 was published. 29 30 So my goal was one, to look at, you 31 know, if any of these changes were going to look a 32 little different out here in Sitka Sound with our 33 particular environment and hopefully run this 34 experiment through and get it to a point where we could 35 publish it and get this information out there. 36 37 The other piece of it that we're 38 interested in, if you move to the next slide, is -- 39 again this is coming from my perspective as a seaweed 40 ecologist. So we know that seaweed and other 41 substrates that photosynthesize, as they 42 photosynthesize they pull carbon dioxide out of the 43 water right around them. And by doing that they 44 actually locally raise the pH so kind of counteract 45 that acidification right around where their blades are. 46 And there's been a lot of talk in the literature about 47 the possibility for sea grass beds or giant kelp 48 forests through this bulk photosynthesis to actually 49 create these refuge zones that are less acidic than



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1 surrounding sea water. So one of my interests was 2 looking at well, we know that herring eggs show up on 3 these different macrophytes naturally. Does this mean 4 that they are going to be naturally in a protective 5 area in these future conditions of ocean acidification. 6 So could their association with these sea grasses and 7 seaweeds actually benefit them in a future ocean. 8 9 So that was part of our question.

10 11 And move to the next slide. Big things 12 we were looking at this study was one, how do projected 13 warming and acidification impact herring roe 14 development from fertilization to hatch. And then 15 number 2, does a particular association with 16 photosynthesizing substrate actually help or hinder 17 those affects on developing herring roe. 18 19 So the next couple of slides are just 20 kind of a picture of what this looks like for us to 21 carry out. So slide nine you can see the adult 22 herring. We only needed about ten males and ten 23 females to run this study. We strip spawned these 24 mature herring onto the different substrates. If you 25 move to the next slide you can see our setup as we 26 removed eggs and milt. And we were actually able to 27 just directly place the eggs onto the different 28 substrates, so in slide 11 you can see Angie Bowers, 29 who works at University of Alaska Southeast placing 30 eggs onto giant kelp blades that we had. Slide 12 31 shows that a little bit closer in. So we have a line 32 of eggs there on the kelp blade. 33 34 You will note of course we're not 35 interested in looking at density effects or just at 36 least at this early stage of the experiment couldn't 37 also incorporate that in, so we're dealing with a 38 single layer of herring spawn on the substrates to see 39 about their response. 40 41 The next slide shows the other 42 substrate we used, which is our control or our non- 43 photosynthesizing substrate, and one of our helpers 44 dropping the herring milt to fertilize the eggs on 45 those different substrates. 46 47 Slide 14 shows what those substrates 48 look like after the eggs had been fertilized and they 49 were placed into our system, so we used incubating



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1 trays similar to the ones that they use in salmon 2 hatcheries. We modified them to be able to raise 3 herring in them. Part of this gamble of trying to pull 4 this off is that we had heard that it is very difficult 5 to raise herring in the lab, so we basically did what 6 we could do build these trays. We knew from the get-go 7 that it was going to be very difficult to keep herring 8 larvae alive after hatch, so that's why we were 9 constraining our interests to just the period of

10 development from egg fertilization to hatch period. 11 12 Next slide, slide 15. We measured a 13 number of things just to see if there were effects, 14 where they might appear. So we looked at fertilization 15 success. We looked at actual retention of eggs on the 16 different substrates, the respiration rate of the 17 herring at a very particular degree hour of 18 development, hatch timing, hatch success, and some 19 morphametric information on when the larvae did hatch, 20 how big they were, their total length, how much yoke 21 area they had on average. And then we did actually run 22 RNA, DNA ratios of that larvae. And basically what 23 that is is it's a proxy for condition. So how much are 24 these just hatched, are they synthesizing proteins and 25 does that differ with each different condition. And 26 that's a good indicator of stress and whether they are, 27 you know, functioning in the way that they should. 28 29 So, you know, it's kind of a glance at 30 results. So this is showing you at these different 31 treatment combinations along (phone cuts out) the 32 proportion of eggs that we actually saw fertilized on 33 these two different substrates that we tested. This is 34 extremely interesting to me that the giant kelp blades 35 that we used did appear to be associated with reduced 36 fertilization success of the herring eggs. I'm not 37 totally sure what's going on here. My best guess is 38 that we used smaller giant kelp blades in this 39 experiment just in order to be able to fit them in the 40 trays that we had. And I wonder if these younger 41 blades actually prod -- a lot of seaweeds will produce 42 chemicals to present grazers from settling or from 43 eating them. And I wonder if these smaller blades were 44 producing these chemicals and that actually interacted 45 with the egg member fertilization and impacted 46 fertilization success. 47 48 I don't know ecologically its relevance 49 to how eggs are affected out in the wild. Given that



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1 the majority of eggs that in talking to locals here and 2 to tribal harvesters here, it seems like the consensus 3 is that most eggs are seen on mature, a large kelp 4 blade, and not necessarily the very smaller growing 5 tips of the seaweed, so it could be that was just a 6 mistake on our part in using those smaller blades and 7 to get a better sense we would need to use mature 8 blades that maybe didn't interact with the eggs as they 9 were (phone cuts out).

10 11 So you can see that there was an effect 12 of the blade on fertilization success. Unfortunately, 13 if you move to slide 17 we had dismal retention of eggs 14 of the giant kelp blades through the course of the 15 experiment. This is similar to in terms of the group 16 along the bottom and you can see for every treatment 17 group of age and temperature almost all of the eggs on 18 the giant kelp blades ending up falling off as opposed 19 to pretty good retention on the non-photosynthesis 20 (ph)substrate. So unfortunately this is where our 21 comparison of those two substrates ends and we can't 22 really say much about how giant kelp interacted with 23 these herring roes developing and future conditions, 24 but this is kind of a -- still a piece that we are 25 really interested in pursuing in the future. 26 27 If you move to slide 18 you can see 28 that this is a picture of our -- one of the giant kelp 29 blades at the end of the experiment which initially was 30 cut to the sides of that piece of silicone to start, so 31 over the 17 days that the experiment ran these giant 32 kelp blades grew a ton in our experiment. And as many 33 of you know, they do have a very fast growth rate, 34 these seaweed, so I think that part of the egg 35 retention issue is just that these blades are growing 36 fast, they probably had some chemical on them or the 37 alginate, the kind of sticky substance that the seaweed 38 produced was enough to knock those eggs off in this lab 39 environment. So anyhow, I think still a really 40 interesting question, but the rest of the results that 41 I'm going to present here do not take that into 42 account. 43 44 Okay. So moving to slide 19, here 45 we're just looking at herring roe response to these 46 different conditions. Substrate is not involved here. 47 So in slide 19 we're looking at temperature. Sorry. 48 On the X axis we're looking at the two different pH's 49 and the two different bars that are kind of nested



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1 within those pH treatments represent the two 2 temperature treatments. 3 4 So for example, if you look on the 5 lefthand side, pH 7.9, that's our current spring 6 conditions. And the 7 degree blue box is our current 7 temperature. I did a factorial design in this 8 experiment, so I actually manipulated temperature and 9 pH separately in order to see what the impact was at

10 each of these potential stressors independently as well 11 as together. So here we're looking at how those two 12 stressors might impact the time of development of these 13 eggs. 14 15 The basic takeaway is that ocean 16 acidification doesn't appear to impact the time of 17 development for herring roe, but temperature does. And 18 this follows many studies that look at fish development 19 under warmer temperatures. If you raise the 20 temperature you're going to speed up development. 21 22 So that's what we found with these 23 guys. It actually decreased the time to hatch, so 24 basically implying that in the future in warmer spring 25 conditions in Sitka Sound you're going to end up with a 26 faster development time. 27 28 If you move to slide 20, we also see a 29 similar result with respiration, so breathing rate of 30 these developing eggs. So during their development 31 while they're still in their egg stage before they've 32 hatched if we look at oxygen consumption we can see 33 that although ocean acidification has no impact, 34 temperature again does. It speeds up their 35 respiration, so they are breathing faster, consuming 36 more oxygen per time period in those warmer conditions. 37 38 If we move to the next slide, slide 21, 39 along with those few metrics again if we look at RNA, 40 DNA ratios, so the protein synthesis of these larvae at 41 hatch, again no impact of acidification, but 42 temperature again does appear to have a big negative 43 impact on protein synthesis. So a lower RNA, DNA ratio 44 at hatch is indicative that they are not -- they're 45 basically not transcribing the proteins at a rate that 46 they normally do. So that could be indicative of 47 reduced condition of these larvae at hatch. 48 49 Moving to slide 22, this is something



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1 interesting that I'd like to note is that we actually 2 found that temperature and ocean acidification had 3 differing impacts on the morphometrics of herring roe. 4 So to kind of lay this out for you, first, if we look 5 just at temperature we saw that, you know, along with 6 developing faster they end up coming out of their egg 7 stage into their larval stage shorter, so when they 8 hatch they are much shorter than they are normally and 9 they have larger yolks. This makes a bit of sense

10 because we've sped up their development so they don't 11 have as long of a time to develop and maybe get as big. 12 They don't have as much time to utilize those yolk 13 reserves, so when they come out of their egg stage they 14 are smaller and they have more yolk that is still 15 there. 16 17 If you move to the next slide it's 18 showing the pH impact. We actually saw significantly 19 longer larvae with lower pH and smaller yolk. And so 20 what this implies if we're manipulating these two 21 stressors independently is that each stressor is doing 22 something different physiologically to these developing 23 herring. 24 25 So in talking with other fish 26 physiologists, it appears that this ocean acidification 27 potentially is stressing out these herring as they 28 develop in a way that perhaps they're compensating by 29 trying to grow longer. And in that compensation 30 they're using up their yolk reserves faster so that 31 although they're going to be bigger when they hatch, 32 they come out with less reserves available to them. So 33 really interesting to look at these two differences. 34 35 And the last piece of this if you move 36 to the last slide, slide 24, we find that if you 37 combine those two stressors, so ecologically what we 38 expect in the future with both warming and 39 acidification, you see no difference in total length or 40 yolk size. But again if we go back to our RNA, DNA 41 ratios, our condition at hatch, they are still going to 42 have a negative RNA, DNA condition. So that's really 43 interesting in that it implies that the herring roe 44 under these future conditions might not look any 45 different, so as opposed to just warming, having them 46 coming out of their egg stage and looking a lot 47 shorter, if they are both being warmed and acidified 48 they may come out of hatch and look exactly the same, 49 but have reduced condition if we actually look at a



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1 molecular level. 2 3 So I think that's really important to 4 keep in mind is that multiple stressors in the future 5 may actually end up hiding some of these impacts at 6 least on a more symmetric level. And we really want to 7 make sure we're thinking about all the ways that these 8 guys are being impacted physiologically to be sure that 9 we're sure of what the total impacts are.

10 11 So slide 25 is a bit of a summary of 12 all that that I just covered. So if we just increase 13 temperature we're seeing hatching six days earlier. 14 They're breathing a lot more oxygen. Their oxygen 15 function goes way up. They have a 21 percent reduction 16 overall in their condition. They're shorter and their 17 yolk size is larger at hatch. PH, really the main 18 effects are on those morphometrics again. And so the 19 big takeaway is that when you combing ocean 20 acidification and warming that we expect at the end of 21 the century, they may not look any different on a 22 morphometric level, but we're going to see faster 23 oxygen consumption which indicates stress and 24 nutritional condition may be pretty reduced. 25 26 So slide 26. You know, the big thing I 27 want to say is that again this study did not take into 28 account survival after hatch. As I mentioned, it is 29 incredibly difficult to keep newly hatched larvae of 30 herring alive in the lab. So we weren't able to say 31 okay. Well, if they do come out smaller and with a 32 reduced condition, does that really mean that their 33 survival over the next ten days is impacted. We were 34 not able to measure that, but it does imply that there 35 are some long term effects that might be felt by these 36 ** I guess impact pH maybe at least for what we expect 37 to see in the next 80 years may not have as big of a 38 role in being a stressor to Pacific herring. 39 40 But I think that knowing that 41 temperature has a big effect on these fish is important 42 even today as we see a big marine heat wave events 43 sweep through especially at this time of year when they 44 are developing and they are perhaps more vulnerable 45 it's important to think about what ways that could be 46 impacting them and interacting with other stressors 47 that are going on in terms of timing of resources and 48 predators moving in as well. 49



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1 So with that I'll just say thanks again 2 for letting me present to you all. And this is a study 3 that went on with a lot of help from a lot of folks in 4 my lab and again a big funding push from the North 5 Pacific Research Board that allowed me to do that. 6 7 So thank you very much. 8 9 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Yeah.

10 Thank you, Lauren. It's a very interesting 11 presentation. I'll see if the Council has any 12 questions at this time. 13 14 Frank, any questions? 15 16 MR. WRIGHT: Does the temperature of 17 the water -- you know, does it affect how the 18 acidification is? Is it higher when it's colder or 19 higher when it's lower? You know, because in Hoonah 20 we're having -- I think we're having problems with our 21 cockle shells. They're getting pretty thin, so just 22 curious. 23 24 MS. BELL: Yeah. Absolutely. So it 25 depends on a number of things. In general when waters 26 are cold they can hold a lot more dissolved gas. And 27 so this is why, you know, in general at high latitudes 28 we're very concerned about ocean acidification because 29 it can hold more of that carbon dioxide which then 30 leads to higher amounts of acidity in the water. 31 32 The other big thing here in coastal 33 areas is that we get a lot of freshwater runoff. And 34 in general fresh water runoff, if you're adding more 35 freshwater to the system you're basically decreasing 36 its buffering capacity, so that can add to 37 acidification conditions. 38 39 And lastly, if you are in an area where 40 you get up-welling of really deep water, sometimes 41 those deep waters can be more corrosive or acidic. So 42 it's kind of a combination of all of those. Freshwater 43 input, temperature, and, you know, the dynamics of up- 44 welling and other waters. 45 46 So part of it, you know, is that 47 there's a lot of people in the State that are trying to 48 put sensors out in as many areas as possible to see 49 what those local dynamics look like because they might



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1 vary on pretty local scales unfortunately. 2 3 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Any follow up, 4 Frank? 5 6 MR. WRIGHT: No. I just have another 7 one. Another question is, you know, these little I 8 don't know what you call them when they're little 9 herring, so does, you know, what they eat, algae or

10 whatever they eat, does the acidification affect their 11 whatever they eat? 12 13 MS. BELL: Yeah. Another great 14 question. So that's another piece that people are 15 looking at. 16 17 For herring roe, they have a little bit 18 of a diverse diet when they start being able to feed as 19 larvae. Some of the plankton that they eat when they 20 are young have been shown to be impacted by 21 acidification. You know, the big unknowns are how. 22 You know, if they're going to have the ability to 23 switch food sources, it would look to other food 24 sources. So I would say that there's just big 25 unknowns. Big question marks in that. 26 27 You know, this is one small piece of 28 the puzzle and I would say that from looking at other 29 pieces of the food web part of it is, you know, if 30 they're stressed out the big, the next big question 31 when they, you know, after they hatch is are they going 32 to have the food sources like you're implying to then, 33 you know, mitigate those impacts. So I think that's 34 the next thing we have to look at is if they hatch 35 earlier and they're more compromised, are they still 36 going to have the food when they hatch that allows them 37 to then get up to size and be able to survive well. 38 39 MR. WRIGHT: Another question is does 40 this acidification affect the outer shell of the egg or 41 anything like that before they hatch? 42 43 MS. BELL: At least from, you know, 44 what we could measure I think that it doesn't appear 45 that it's affecting the membrane and from some other 46 studies that I've read I don't think that it is. I 47 think more there is, you know, the big thing is what's 48 going on in ion exchange across that membrane and 49 really the study is kind of looking at the integrated



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1 effects of that. 2 3 So I can't speak to exactly what's 4 happening at the membrane level, but more kind of, you 5 know, the summed response of these guys. So it could 6 be that part of why they end up displaying the 7 responses that they do is because there is that 8 interaction with the egg membrane, but I'm not sure if 9 it's that or if it's, you know, other co-occurring

10 stressors. 11 12 MR. WRIGHT: Okay. Thank you, Mr. 13 Chair. 14 15 Thank you, Lauren. 16 17 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. 18 19 MR. WRIGHT: Just a little statement. 20 You know, herring has a lot to do with the culture of 21 the area, so thanks for your report. 22 23 MS. BELL: Yeah. 24 25 MR. WRIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 26 27 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Thank you, 28 Frank. 29 30 Mike Douville, any questions? 31 32 MR. DOUVILLE: No questions. Thank 33 you, Mr. Chair. I do have a comment though. 34 35 Like you had a poor retention on the -- 36 I'm assuming you used macrocystis, we call it giant 37 kelp, but what we see naturally is that on the newer 38 growth of kelp or on the upper corridor of it towards 39 the new growth it has poor retention in the wild also. 40 It generally falls off after a few days. This is 41 really kind of desirable for us that like what we call 42 peelers. We can slide the eggs right off the kelp and 43 have straight eggs. But farther down the vine where 44 the leaves are mature so to speak, a little older, you 45 can't peel it off, and that could be some of the reason 46 why you had poor retention. 47 48 Just an observation. 49



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1 I don't know where you got your kelp, 2 but it looked like it was pretty young kelp to me. 3 That's just something I thought I'd mention. 4 5 MS. BELL: Thank you. That is very 6 useful. And I think if I ran this again I would do it 7 with older blades for that reason. 8 9 So I appreciate that knowledge.

10 11 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Thank you, 12 Mike. 13 14 Bob Schroeder, any questions? 15 16 (No comment) 17 18 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: How about Albert 19 Howard. Any questions? 20 21 MR. HOWARD: I have one, Mr. Chair. I'm 22 wondering if this information will be used as part of 23 managing that resource. I guess there's two questions. 24 Are they also going to continue this research. 25 26 MS. BELL: Yes. Well, I'm hoping to 27 get this out to as many folks as possible. I've been 28 sharing this information as widely as I can and then 29 hoping to speed along publishing it so it can be used 30 in management. 31 32 And I do intend to continue this 33 research. Of course things are a little foiled this 34 spring in running this experiment again, but my desire 35 would be to run it again and, you know, improve on what 36 we learned in this round and again continue to look at 37 different substrates that these eggs are growing on and 38 how they might impact their ability to cope with future 39 conditions. 40 41 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Anything else, 42 Albert? 43 44 MR. HOWARD: No. That's it. 45 46 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 47 48 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. How about 49 Harold Robbins.



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1 (No comment) 2 3 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: John Yeager, any 4 questions? 5 6 MR. YEAGER: None at this time. Thank 7 you. 8 9 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Larry Bemis, are

10 you back yet? 11 12 (No comment) 13 14 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: No. 15 16 How about you, Cathy. Cathy Needham, 17 any questions? 18 19 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I 20 don't have any questions at this time. 21 22 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Yeah. Very 23 interesting presentation, Lauren. I think you got some 24 good questions there. Some questions from Frank that I 25 think we were all kind of wondering. And interesting 26 to hear what Mike had to offer. 27 28 So yeah, appreciate your presentation. 29 Sitka herring roe harvest has always been a major 30 interest of the Southeast community and we want to be 31 kept informed about all the latest developments, so 32 appreciate you bringing that to us. 33 34 MS. BELL: Well, thank you very much 35 for the opportunity and I will certainly keep you 36 informed if I continue to run this. 37 38 And my email is at the top of that 39 handout or on the first slide and please feel free to 40 reach out with any questions. I would be happy to 41 follow up with anyone. 42 43 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Very good. Thank 44 you again. So that brings us on the agenda to the call 45 for Federal fish and shellfish proposals. And this is 46 the point where I just kind of turn it over to the 47 Council, different people from different communities 48 and regions. 49



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1 Are there any proposals that you or 2 people in your communities would like to bring before

3 the entire Council to put forward. This would be

4 proposals that would come from the Council to the

5 Board. 6

7 So maybe I should, in order to be

8 somewhat orderly here I'll go through the roster

9 specifically and ask. 10

11 Cathy Needham, do you have any

12 proposals to put forward to discussion of the Council? 13

14 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

15 This is Cathy. I do not have any proposals that have

16 come up to be put forward by the Council. 17

18 Thank you. 19

20 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. And once

21 again I'll ask if Larry Bemis is back. 22

23 (No comment) 24

25 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: If he is not,

26 we'll try and get back to him from Yakutat later. 27

28 How about John Yeager in Wrangell. 29

30 MR. YEAGER: Mr. Chair, thank you. I

31 don't have anything at this time. 32


34 Harold Robbins up in Yakutat. Anything Harold, you

35 want to bring before the Council? 36

37 MR. ROBBINS: I don't have anything at

38 this time. I need to consult with Larry and a couple

39 of the others locally. There's some talk about wanting

40 to make some changes, but it's more at the State level. 41

42 Thank you. 43

44 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Right. And just

45 as a reminder, the Council can also put proposals

46 coming from the Council into the State Board of Fish,

47 so that will be the next topic on the agenda. 48

49 So let's see. Albert Howard, any



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1 proposals for the Federal system? 2 3 MR. HOWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 4 I'm wondering if we should work together on figuring 5 out how to -- we've heard testimony about shrimp being 6 taken by subsistence users in a certain area and all of 7 a sudden it got commercialized and subsistence users' 8 allocation was significantly less than they usually 9 take from the area because they decided to

10 commercialize it. I wonder if we can put something 11 together asking that they recognize the resource was 12 originally found by subsistence users and the 13 traditional use determination should be considered 14 based on the amount they had been taking before they 15 commercialized that area. That's just a thought. 16 17 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 18 19 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah, Albert. I 20 know that's been a topic here with the Council. I 21 think the only way to address that from my 22 understanding would be to possibly put in some kind of 23 a proposal to the State on that. So we can discuss 24 that a little bit later. 25 26 How about Bob Schroeder. Anything for 27 the Federal system? 28 29 MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chair, I've got 30 nothing at this time. 31 32 Thank you. 33 34 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. How about 35 Mike Douville. Anything on your mind for proposals? 36 37 MR. DOUVILLE: Mike Douville here. No, 38 Mr. Chair. I don't have anything at this time. 39 40 Thanks. 41 42 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. And Frank 43 Wright, how about you? 44 45 MR. WRIGHT: I don't have anything, Mr. 46 Chair. 47 48 Thank you. 49



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1 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Well, that 2 sounds like our job may be fairly easy in that regard. 3 I guess I should also say that I don't have any 4 proposals in mind for my area either. So unless 5 something else comes up in the course of this meeting 6 which we can always revisit this, but for now I guess 7 we have nothing to discuss there. 8 9 So let's go to call for Statewide

10 proposals. They're not Statewide, but State-managed 11 fisheries proposals for the Board of Fish. Maybe there 12 will be something here. 13 14 Cathy, any proposals that you know of 15 that the Council might want to put forward to the State 16 Board of Fish? 17 18 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 19 This is Cathy. 20 21 In listening to Albert a moment ago 22 about shrimp, I know that the Hydaburg Cooperative 23 Association or the Community of Hydaburg has recently 24 started a Fish and Game Advisory Committee and they too 25 were interested in shrimp and crab, sort of the 26 commercial impacts on that. And I know that they will 27 put in a proposal, so I know we will probably see that 28 down the line and can potentially support them in that 29 effort. 30 31 But given what Mr. Howard said about 32 shrimp and stuff, I think that it's a broad topic 33 across our region, so maybe his approach is a good way 34 for the Council to consider putting something forward 35 to the State that supports other community efforts to 36 look at commercial harvest of shrimp and crab having 37 impacts on subsistence users. 38 39 That was the only thing I had. 40 41 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Right. And Cathy, 42 I guess, yeah, I would comment on that, that my 43 recollection that that original discussion about the 44 shrimp and impacts with subsistence and commercial came 45 from the Sitka Tribe and it related to fishing that was 46 happening in the Sitka area. I believe the issue there 47 was that once shrimp were kind of discovered mostly by 48 folks who were going out and subsistence fishing, then 49 they instituted a commercial fishery and the way the



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1 management worked out they were allowing more shrimp to 2 be taken by commercial than subsistence. And the Sitka 3 Tribe felt that was a violation of the priority which 4 the State is also obligated to uphold for subsistence. 5 So it was brought up by Sitka Tribe. 6 7 It could be an issue in other areas as 8 well. I don't personally have an idea about how to 9 address that concern, but we'll maybe take note of it

10 and in the course of our discussions here if somebody 11 has an idea on a way to remedy that situation, it might 12 come up. 13 14 MS. NEEDHAM: Mr. Chair. 15 16 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: So was there 17 anything else that you wanted to bring to the attention 18 of the Council, Cathy? 19 20 MS. NEEDHAM: Yeah, Mr. Chair. This is 21 Cathy again. I also just want to find out if we're 22 interested in putting in a proposal that we have tried 23 to put in with the Board of Fish for all of the cycles 24 that I've been on the Council, and that is the 25 reporting by non-residents. I know we keep -- I never 26 have quite understood why we haven't been able to have 27 harvest reporting of salmon by non-residents. I know 28 that there's been a little push back from the Board of 29 Fish on that and it's something that we've tried to put 30 through. 31 32 I don't quite remember the details of 33 the proposal, but really our impetus was trying to fill 34 the data gap of non-residents that come up and kind of 35 catch fish and freeze them and go out and catch fish 36 and free them, you know, and there's no accounting 37 system there. 38 39 So I don't know if that ever came to 40 resolution the last Board cycle when they just said if 41 there were specific systems that we wanted to have that 42 done on there is a mechanism to it. And we haven't 43 really followed through with it, so I don't know if 44 that's a proposal or not. But didn't want it to get 45 lost under the radar in case it's something we want to 46 think about. 47 48 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: I agree with you 49 on that one, Cathy. The Council did put in a proposal.



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1 It might have been the last cycle. I think it was. We 2 put in the proposal to try and deal with that issue. I 3 don't remember all the specifics myself right now, but 4 I think it might have only dealt with maybe one 5 species. We might have only been focusing on sockeye 6 at the time just to see if we could get something past 7 the Board. It got shot down. I don't even think they 8 gave it all that much consideration, but it is an 9 ongoing issue that comes up before the Council and we

10 may want to make another attempt at that. So I have 11 put that on a list for further discussion. 12 13 You got anything else, Cathy, you want 14 to bring forward? 15 16 MS. NEEDHAM: I don't unless another 17 Council member has clarification or information on that 18 last one that they want to share. 19 20 MR. YEAGER: I do, Mr. Chair. This is 21 John Yeager. 22 23 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Go ahead, 24 John. 25 26 MR. YEAGER: I think we were asking for 27 the Kasheets sockeye to be documented on the non- 28 resident licenses just because of some pressure that we 29 knew about that was happening from some of the lodges 30 that rent skiffs up in the Wrangell Narrows area. So I 31 believe that's where that came from. But I do know 32 that the Fish and Game didn't feel that there was 33 enough proof of pressure, if you will, on that system 34 to require documentation on that. 35 36 So anyway, that's what I recall. If we 37 do take this up, I do have some ideas about other ways 38 that we can have documentation happen. And if we do 39 write up a proposal, I would be happy to be involved 40 with that. 41 42 Thank you. 43 44 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Thank you, 45 John. 46 47 MR. BEMIS: Mr. Chair, this is Larry. 48 49 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah, Larry. Good



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1 to hear you back. 2 3 4 MR. BEMIS: I'm back into the 5 conference. I was just in a special meeting with the 6 Yakutat Tlingit Tribes and the city about how they're 7 dealing with the virus and the medical staff coming and 8 going and that sort of thing, so it took a -- we're 9 trying to find all the proper steps. We're building a

10 clinic here and we're worried about the people that are 11 coming in from Fairbanks, Anchorage, Ketchikan, and 12 we're trying to find how we can deal with this in a 13 small community because we don't have much 14 infrastructure if anybody gets sick here and we don't 15 have anybody manning the clinic very well. 16 17 So I would just like to let everybody 18 know that I've been on this meeting and are working 19 with the city and with Anchorage, the governor. We had 20 our staff from the health department and everybody to 21 kind of navigate through this and be safe at the same 22 time. So I just wanted to let you know that I was off 23 for an hour or so here in a conference call that we're 24 trying to work things out here and set up some triage 25 centers and stuff like that. And so I'm back online 26 here. 27 28 Thank you. 29 30 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Very good. 31 Glad to hear you're back. And certainly an important 32 thing that you were talking about there. Yeah. We 33 appreciate the fact that you're helping out in your 34 community. So yeah, you're a busy guy. 35 36 For your benefit, Larry, right now we 37 have moved on the agenda. We went through asking if 38 anybody on the Council had or knew of any proposals 39 from their community that they wanted to put forward to 40 the Council for changes to regulation on Federal 41 subsistence fisheries. And I think you missed your 42 opportunity there to see if there was any proposals 43 that you wanted to put forward or anything you knew of 44 in your community that, you know, wanted the Council 45 to put forward on their behalf. 46 47 MR. BEMIS: The problem we're having 48 here is we were going to address some issues with the 49 AC Board locally for the Fish and Game and they didn't



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1 have a quorum, so that got passed on. And usually we 2 discuss things through that arm of information and that 3 kind of sets the tone to where everybody's at. 4 5 The only thing that I would like to add 6 is that we are recommending that we rescind the 7 subsistence for the spring, April 1 through May, that 8 you don't have to tend your net in the Yakutat Bay 9 area. But we aren't going to have a Board of Fish

10 meeting, so I'm thinking they might have that in a 11 conference call. But the mail-outs are still due 12 through April 10th. Anyone or anybody can put in a 13 proposal that would be addressed by the State of 14 Alaska. 15 16 On the subsistence aspect, I don't have 17 anything. The Forest Service might have something that 18 they might want to add to it, or they did. Other than 19 that I don't have anything at this time. 20 21 Thank you. 22 23 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Yeah. 24 Thank you. And we went through all the Council members 25 and nobody had any proposals they wanted to put through 26 on the Federal system, so now we are discussing 27 proposals to the State Board of Fish. So I guess you 28 were up next on the list. I guess you've kind of 29 described what might happen in Yakutat, so that's good. 30 31 And I guess next John Yeager. You got 32 anything else you wanted to add for proposals to the 33 State? You've already mentioned that you might help on 34 a proposal on accountability by sport fishermen, but 35 anything else? 36 37 MR. YEAGER: Mr. Chair, no. Nothing at 38 this time. 39 40 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. How about 41 Harold Robbins. Do you have anything? 42 43 (No comment) 44 45 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Somebody just rang 46 in. Was that Harold? 47 48 (No comment) 49



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1 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Apparently not. 2 How about Albert Howard. Do you got anything, Albert,

3 for State Board of Fish proposals? 4

5 MR. HOWARD: I have a long list here,

6 Mr. Chairman. 7

8 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Very good. Okay. 9

10 MR. HOWARD: So one is king salmon.

11 One a day for subsistence users because they just

12 totally removed it without regards for subsistence

13 users and I have a feeling they're going to do it

14 again. So that's one. 15

16 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. 17

18 MR. HOWARD: The second one is special

19 use areas concerning here in Angoon the local tribe's

20 been concerned with crab for quite a while because

21 we'll put crab pots out and then a commercial guy will

22 come in and dump all his pots and empty the area.

23 That's become more important now more than ever because

24 we rely on the resource when (phone cuts out) decides

25 they're going to shut down and we have no ferry service

26 now so we need this resource more and more now than we

27 ever have. So that becomes important and that was

28 something that was talked about. 29

30 And Angoon has created a Traditional

31 Foods Council because they don't agree with the word

32 subsistence, so it's a Traditional Foods Council. And

33 one of the things they have discussed was a bag limit

34 for charter boats on salmon to four a day. And when

35 you think about it, they take six cohos for a day for a

36 week, that's thirty-six for one person. So all that

37 adds up. 38

39 And then the last one would be the

40 ability to tie off a gillnet, an attended gillnet.

41 They seem to want us to sit there and let it -- they

42 don't want us to tie it to an anchor currently and that

43 would be -- it would just be more efficient if we

44 could. I'm not sure if that's something we can ask

45 for. 46

47 That's kind of what I have on my list

48 for now. And we have quite a bit going on here in

49 Angoon as far as all the organizations are in a meeting



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1 right now trying to figure out how to address the virus 2 and what's coming into the community and who. So I'm 3 waiting for a text reply back from the president and 4 the Mayor and see if they have anything else to add. 5 So I may have something later. 6 7 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 8 9 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Yeah. Very

10 good. That's a good start though. We will certainly 11 be spending some time on this, this meeting, so there's 12 opportunity to get in some more proposals. 13 14 Bob Schroeder, do you got anything? 15 16 MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chair, nothing at 17 this time. 18 19 Thank you. 20 21 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: How about Mike 22 Douville. 23 24 MR. DOUVILLE: Yeah. Mike Douville 25 here, Mr. Chairman. 26 27 The Craig AC was considering a proposal 28 on rockfish as we were blanket closed down on yellow 29 eye and other species. So they were considering trying 30 to get the other species other than yellow eye exempt 31 from that. And I don't know. We were supposed to have 32 a meeting on the 1st of April, a teleconference one. 33 And it seems to me there was -- we have some discussion 34 on the Sitka Tribe proposal on shrimp. But Howard 35 mentioned limiting charter fishermen to four a day. I 36 don't know. We submitted a proposal similar to that 37 and it wasn't considered. So I think our proposal was 38 an annual bag limit, but it didn't go anywhere. 39 40 That's all I have. 41 42 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Thank you, 43 Mike. I think you're correct. In our proposal I think 44 we were putting forward that idea of annual, some kind 45 of an annual bag limit. As I recall, that's true. 46 47 Okay. Thank you. 48 49 How about Frank Wright. Anything from



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1 you, Frank, for State Board of Fish? 2 3 MR. WRIGHT: I don't know if it's the 4 State Board of Fish, but last year we had to register 5 our boat there. Go to the DMV to register our boat, 6 which is another added thing to, added tax to our 7 fishing when we register with the State. My ADF&G 8 number shows that I'm a fisherman, but I had to 9 register with the DMV so that we could, some derelict

10 thing. I don't know where that's gone with the State, 11 but I don't understand why we have to register our boat 12 when we're already registered with a State of Alaska 13 fishing vessel license. 14 15 You know, and another thing is we have 16 these guided tours running around crazy out there, you 17 know, and they fish and I don't know what the term is, 18 but they run out and around by themselves. They come 19 from somewhere in the middle of the United States and 20 they're running around crazy. So they just take 21 everything. You know, and I just kind of wonder who 22 monitors them because they don't, you know, taking ping 23 pong paddles and everything. So it's kind of -- and 24 our halibut around here is -- I just said one time in 25 my testimony was that an elder couldn't even go out and 26 find one. So anyway, that's all I have. 27 28 Thank you. 29 30 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Thank you, 31 Frank. The unguided, non-resident sportfish. 32 33 That's the problem that I think is kind 34 of number one on my list. It's having a big impact on 35 our local area. You know, there's very little 36 accountability. It's what John Yeager was talking 37 about as well. Yeah. I think there needs to be a 38 proposal to deal with that. I think it would be a good 39 one to come from the Council. 40 41 So now we've got a good list to work 42 with here so we have to decide how to go about 43 addressing it. I can see that some of the issues are 44 kind of region-wide issues. That they're of interest 45 to everybody. There's a few that might be more area 46 specific. Actually, I think most of them are kind of 47 area wide. I don't know if it's necessary to break 48 into working groups on these seeing as how so many of 49 them area region-wide. I think we might just start



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1 tackling them as a whole group here. And they are 2 going to take some fair amount of discussion I think to 3 be able to craft well-worded proposals that deal with 4 these issues. Some of them -- a few of them are fairly 5 complex, but we do have a fair amount of time to work 6 on them. 7 8 Maybe we'll just start the discussion 9 this afternoon. If we get to a point where we think we

10 need to put together some kind of a working group to 11 deal with any specific proposal, maybe we can do that 12 and try and find some time to let a working group work. 13 But for right now let's just kind of work with the 14 whole Council and see what kind of ideas we can bring 15 forward here. 16 17 I think I'd like to start with what 18 might be kind of one of the more complex ones and 19 something that's probably of interest to everybody on 20 the Council from all areas, and that's this situation 21 where essentially we have a rapidly growing, fairly 22 robust sportfish, I would have to call it an industry 23 now that's kind of developing. 24 25 It's hard to classify as sportfishing. 26 It's not really charter fishing. It's kind of where 27 people come mostly from out of state, at least in 28 Southeast they come mostly from out of state, they rent 29 a room or a cabin somewhere and there's a boat provided 30 to them and they're out there fishing on their own. 31 They're fishing under just State sportfish regulation. 32 Game regulations that an Alaskan resident might be 33 fishing under. In a lot of instances there might be 34 some more restrictions if you're a non-resident, but a 35 lot of them are the same thing that local residents 36 fish under. The bag limits tend to be pretty generous. 37 Reporting and any kind of ways to keep track of the 38 catches is very limited, so we really don't know. We 39 don't really have a good idea of what's being taken, 40 but we all see with our own eyes how much is being 41 taken. It's fairly significant. 42 43 In my view, it's kind of an 44 exploitation of a recall by businesses that are in the 45 fish charter business, but they don't want to provide a 46 guided experience and comply with all the regulations 47 that a guide would have to comply with, so they rent a 48 boat. In my view, what I see happening around here 49 with just the advances in modern technology have made



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1 the concept of guiding completely different than what 2 it was years in the past where essentially now if you

3 rent a boat and that boat is equipped with a GPS and

4 all these good fishing spots are marked on a GPS very

5 easily. And you can just see these boats that leave

6 the harbor. They go out and they go right to specific

7 places that might have taken locals, you know, many

8 years to try and develop and find and know where the

9 fish are. They seem to be able to go right there

10 without any help from a guide, but they have that guide

11 in the skiff with them. It's called a GPS. 12

13 So I don't know. It's a real problem.

14 It has real impacts, so it needs to be addressed. And

15 given the fact that it operates within so many

16 loopholes in present regulation it's a hard thing to

17 get a handle on and decide how to address. The Board

18 of Fish knows that people are concerned about it. They

19 don't seem to want to, in my view, do anything to

20 address it. They've had proposals before them to deal

21 with the situation. I think it's in the best interests

22 of the subsistence community to keep pushing on it. 23

24 So with that said, if anybody has been

25 giving some thought to what kind of a regulation might

26 be suggested to address that problem, I'll ask for

27 those suggestions now at this time. We can kick them

28 around for a while. 29

30 Maybe I'll just ask anybody that has an

31 idea to chime in. 32

33 MR. YEAGER: Mr. Chair. 34

35 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yes. Go ahead,

36 John. 37

38 MR. YEAGER: This is John Yeager. 39

40 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Go ahead, John. 41

42 MR. YEAGER: Thank you. So this has

43 been a really sore issue with me in particular and I

44 know many of my guided friends that also feel the same

45 way. Maybe Mr. Howard also mirrors kind of some of the

46 thoughts that I've been having as well. 47

48 This is a big problem with a lot of

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1 sitting on the Wrangell AC and this RAC and listening 2 to other guiding organizations and associations that 3 the Board of Fish is not interested in this. And I 4 find that quite hard to believe. I feel that one of the 5 reasons behind this is that if the Board of Fish clamps 6 down on the non-guided, non-resident too much then the 7 loss of revenue from the non-resident fishing licenses 8 could have an impact on the Department, for one reason. 9 And then it also makes Alaska look like we're not the

10 Land of Plenty like we always are to everybody that 11 comes here. 12 13 I've thought about this for a long time 14 and some of my ideas are at the very minimum the non- 15 guided, non-resident should have the same limits as the 16 guided chartered clients. My regulations to take a 17 non-resident out are way more restrictive than a non- 18 guided, non-resident, so bringing the non-guided into 19 line with a chartered client in my mind is a good 20 start. 21 22 They would have to follow the halibut 23 rules. They would have the size limits. They would 24 have to document those. And I think that would be a 25 really good start especially with halibut being 26 targeted so heavily over the last few years. 27 28 Also, the documentation of all species 29 that they catch. Right now I know that the Department 30 probably relies a lot on our guide logbooks that we 31 have to turn in daily, but that's only a very small 32 fraction of the non-residents that come to Alaska. As 33 you've mentioned earlier, this category of non-guided, 34 non-residents is growing astronomically from year to 35 year. And it is one of the fastest growing "commercial 36 industries" growing in Alaska. 37 38 Word of mouth travels extremely fast 39 from the people that come up here and they do this non- 40 guided, non-resident thing and then the next thing you 41 know the next year they bring two more people with 42 them. And then the following year they get two more. 43 And then this is just a growing thing that the State 44 doesn't seem to really care about, but yet it's 45 drastically impacting all the resources from fin fish 46 down to shrimp and crab. And it's just growing out of 47 control while meanwhile the guides that are following, 48 that have legitimate businesses that are buying all of 49 the proper insurances and all the licensing and doing



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1 all the documentation and things to be a guide, we're 2 getting pinched more and more every year with 3 restrictions while we see the non-guided, non-residents 4 go with no restrictions at all. 5 6 I also feel that the lodges that rent 7 boats could be required to submit logbook pages 8 documenting what their clients are catching. That's -- 9 how many boats, those guys have dozens of boats.

10 They're out every day. That's hundreds of fish every 11 day potentially that go undocumented. So I feel that 12 that would be another good place to start is have the - 13 - the rental boat agencies have to document what their 14 clients catch. 15 16 So those are a few things that I've 17 thought of. And like I said, I'm more than willing to 18 help out with writing a proposal regarding this, but if 19 we don't get -- if the State doesn't get a handle on 20 this, the loopholes will continue to abused. And I 21 know that the out-of-state anglers I've seen in my area 22 are growing exponentially and it's quite bothersome to 23 see the amount of fish that are leaving these 24 communities. 25 26 Thank you. 27 28 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Thank you, 29 John. Your ideas were some of the very same ideas that 30 I've been having in that regard, so I'm glad to hear 31 that. And it's coming from somebody who's so involved 32 in that business that we're on the same page there. I 33 think we can come up with some wording that could be 34 fairly simple, straightforward, and address the 35 situation. 36 37 I know we have several other people on 38 the Council who have been involved in the guiding 39 business. Anybody else want to weigh in on this topic 40 or anybody else on the Council as well. 41 42 MR. HOWARD: Mr. Chair, this is Albert. 43 44 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. I hear 45 Albert. Go ahead, Albert. 46 47 MR. HOWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I 48 would have to agree with Mr. Yeager. I think we need 49 to ask that four salmon a day bag limit for the self-



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1 guided. That halibut regulations be the same for the 2 self-guided. Self-guided logbooks should be in place. 3 These guys have been coming for years and I've watched 4 them. Some of them don't seem to have the same respect 5 for our given resource and they treat it as such. And 6 it bothers me to see it, but there's no regulations to 7 prevent what they're doing from happening. And I'm 8 concerned with that and I think the lodge here is 9 getting away from self-guided just for that reason.

10 11 I've seen in the past boat loads of 12 rockfish come in because there was no regulations on 13 rockfish. So the family decided to stuff every 14 compartment full of rockfish before the regulation on 15 rockfish was in place. And then that would change. 16 17 But I think we need to do the bag 18 limits on both halibut and salmon. My concern is 19 watching the self-guides -- is you're going to see 20 rockfish floating out behind them. And the local 21 guides here, the guides that live in Angoon ask that 22 they don't fish anywhere near us because the first 23 person they're going to look at when they see a 24 rockfish floating is a guided boat. So we ask the 25 owner to have them fish somewhere else and stay away 26 from us altogether. 27 28 The other concern I have with the 29 guided boats here in Angoon is the king salmon. I have 30 mentioned it to the owner. I've mentioned it to the 31 guide. I almost took him out on the dock and decided 32 to tell him another way what he's doing isn't right 33 because he'll fish on undersized king salmon and report 34 we had a wonderful day. We released 12 undersized king 35 salmon. And he doesn't realize that there's a 36 mortality to that. And I think somehow we need to take 37 a look at addressing that. 38 39 I know we've talked with Fish and Game 40 about their freshwater logbooks and they've ignored 41 that and decided to do away with it. Well, that's a 42 resource that could help them manage the resource 43 better. And we've also talked to them about putting 44 out a -- they're good at putting out flyers to guides 45 that talk about different things such as releasing 46 rockfish. How to properly. They have pages of 47 documents that show how to do certain things and I 48 think one of them should be the mortality of the king 49 salmon. When you catch one and release it you should



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1 move from the area. We do that here in Angoon. The 2 local guys do. But a lodge that used to have seven or 3 eight local guys from Angoon now has three to ten from 4 out of state. I have my concerns with that because 5 when everyone goes home we're basically left with the 6 end result. 7 8 So I think a good starting point is a 9 halibut size limit for self-guided, a bag limit of four

10 salmon a day. And these could be two separate 11 proposals so they can't throw it all out at once. That 12 should be looked at. 13 14 And, you know, they closed king salmon 15 to non-residents, so that takes care of itself, but 16 there should be something that says if you're catching 17 more than two or three in one spot you need to pick up 18 and move. It needs to be fixed now before we end up 19 with how things are in Sitka with the herring where 20 they talked that to death and finally it took care of 21 itself unfortunately. 22 23 So thank you, Mr. Chair. 24 25 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Thank you, 26 Albert. I jotted down some of your ideas there. 27 28 And actually I mean they have taken 29 action on the rockfish. I mean, you know, they've 30 closed down rockfish fishing all over the area here, so 31 that impacts us. And I don't think we created the 32 problem, but, you know, this whole idea of, you know, 33 releasing rockfish, I've heard that same thing about, 34 you know, the rockfish floating out there. And, you 35 know, the guides, they hate to see it. You know, if 36 you're a guide you're supposed to have the knowledge 37 and experience to know how to properly fish. But, you 38 know, if you're just coming up and renting a boat, 39 sure. They put in a regulation you have to release 40 them, but, you know, do they know what they're doing. 41 I mean it's a -- yeah. It needs to be addressed in 42 another fashion, I think. 43 44 So let's see. Anybody else with ideas 45 on this topic. 46 47 I heard somebody else trying to come 48 on.



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1 MS. NEEDHAM: Mr. Chair. 2 3 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Maybe it was 4 Larry. I'm not sure. 5 6 MS. NEEDHAM: Mr. Chair. 7 8 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Cathy. 9

10 MS. NEEDHAM: Cathy. Yeah. Thanks. 11 Thank you, Mr. Chair. This is Cathy. I agree with Mr. 12 Yeager and Mr. Howard. And one thing, I think about 13 why this hasn't, why it hasn't gotten a lot of Board of 14 Fish support and I agree with some of the reasons that 15 were expressed. And I'm wondering what can we do about 16 it so that we could make a proposal this round be more 17 successful. 18 19 And I just want to throw out there that 20 I think that if we can get our local Advisory 21 Committees to understand a little more about where a 22 proposal like this is coming from and then potentially 23 get their support for a proposal so that they 24 understand that it's about accountability and having a 25 huge data gap, missing information in order to manage 26 the resource, I think that that could help us. Because 27 in the past we haven't had much Local Advisory 28 Committees from the different communities support it 29 and the Board of Fish sometimes listens to their Local 30 Advisory Committees. 31 32 So I know it's like education and 33 outreach and kind of a difficult thing to do before you 34 put a proposal in there, but I think having that solid 35 justification and then a little bit of commitment from 36 our Council members to go back to their local community 37 Advisory Committees and help walk it through the system 38 early on, we might have a better -- that might help 39 improve our chances of having a -- putting the Board of 40 Fish up for supporting it a little bit more. 41 42 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 43 44 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Yeah. 45 Thank you for that, Cathy. 46 47 Anybody else want to weigh in on this 48 topic.



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1 MR. DOUVILLE: Mr. Chairman, Mike 2 Douville. 3 4 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Go ahead, Mike. 5 6 MR. DOUVILLE: There's a couple of 7 other things our AC has discussed or at least one that 8 I didn't mention is the SHARC card halibut which seems 9 to be very popular and easy to misuse, we think. But

10 the criteria for residents or to qualify for one is you 11 need to own a domicile here. And we were looking at 12 ways to close some of that loophole, so like looking at 13 you would have to qualify for a Permanent Fund in order 14 to get a SHARC card. It's really complicated, but 15 we're looking at different ways to close some of the 16 misuse of the halibut card. 17 18 And it's been really difficult. Takes 19 a lot of investigation to come up with and when you 20 charge somebody and then the fine is not significant. 21 So it's a -- but there are some people that are upset 22 about it on our AC and they were looking into it. 23 24 And as far as rockfish floating around, 25 starting this year you will have to have a rockfish 26 release in your boat. So you catch one, you have to 27 have a deep water release onboard to let it go. 28 29 Those are just a couple of things that 30 I thought I would mention. 31 32 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Thank you, 33 Mike. That's something I haven't heard about the SHARC 34 cards. Are you saying that some people that have 35 summer homes up here have found ways to get SHARC 36 cards? Is that the situation? 37 38 MR. DOUVILLE: That's correct. The 39 criteria for getting a card is you have to own a 40 domicile in Alaska or like say where I live up the road 41 or whatever, but they don't live here. They come here 42 in the summertime and they're not residents, but they 43 qualify because they have a house here. 44 45 MADAME CHAIR ROGERS: Right, yeah. 46 47 MR. DOUVILLE: And so what happens is 48 usually it's a husband and wife. So the husband will 49 apply for the SHARC card and the wife remains a



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1 resident in Nevada or wherever state they came from. 2 So that's how the system works. And they fish halibut

3 mercilessly. You know, one of them shipped out 17

4 boxes of halibut in one shot here, but anyway it raised

5 the ire of some of the charter boat guides here, so

6 they're, you know, trying to find a way to change that

7 to where you really honestly have to be a resident. 8

9 But it's complicated by another thing

10 that if you get a tribal card, like registered through

11 the tribe, you don't have to be an Alaska resident.

12 You just need to belong to that tribe. So somebody

13 from living in Seattle can come and fish halibut with a

14 tribal SHARC card. You know, it makes things more

15 complicated. 16

17 But anyway, that's something we are

18 discussing. 19

20 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. I'm

21 thinking that -- I don't know. The SHARC codes don't

22 come under the jurisdiction of the Board of Fish, but

23 that's a National Marine Fisheries regulation. It

24 might be something we want to address in a letter or

25 annual report. Something along those lines to bring

26 that to the attention of the National Marine Fisheries,

27 that they have a -- might have a problem there. It

28 seems like that would be our only means to address

29 that. But I wrote it down here on the list. We'll

30 keep that under discussion. 31

32 Any other Council members want to add

33 to the discussion on non-guided sportfishing proposal. 34

35 MR. BEMIS: Yes, Mr. President. This

36 is Larry. 37

38 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Go ahead, Larry. 39

40 MR. BEMIS: I would like to comment on

41 Mr. Yeager's comment about the boat rental business and

42 having a separate catch limit. And I think we should

43 push that in the same realm as the charter boats.

44 They're following the same thing. We're talking they

45 should be shut down on a Wednesday and shut down on a

46 Tuesday because what is happening here is because --

47 well, let's start with what -- I can go back a little

48 farther. What brought the halibut quota down this

49 year, from what I can gather, is that they have been



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1 not properly testing and knowing about the halibut, 2 about their recovery and what they've been taking. And 3 they are finding out that nobody in the commercial 4 harvest knew that they were taking such a tremendous 5 amount of spawners over a period of time that it's 6 slowly catching up with them and it hadn't really 7 showed in the depletion in the stocks, but as the catch 8 records are showing they're catching more and more big 9 halibut. And they were very concerned about this and

10 I'm thinking that's why they're trying to bring into -- 11 each year they try to put a slot limit on Area 3A and 12 they never get it passed. But to bring the slot limit 13 down to where they aren't harvesting spawners. That's 14 a 12 or 15-year old fish. 15 16 And if the weather is good, what's 17 happening is the fisheries have turned into kind of 18 like your sport fisheries. You take a big commercial 19 boat. He gets to go out there and fish his quota. 20 Turn around, get another captain's quota and another 21 one, so you've got a boat out there that professionally 22 knows where to go get the fish. Instead of having 23 separate captains and weather conditions or anything 24 like this, well you've actually got professional 25 harvesters and they get the job done. I know several 26 boats that go get someone's quota and goes after it. 27 28 With the charter boats being cut back 29 they've got a Wednesday off. Now they're trying to 30 implement a Tuesday off for chartering. So what those 31 guys can do is turn around and rent a boat and then 32 they don't have that two fish size limit and they get 33 to fish on a day off because it's a non-charter day. 34 So implementing the rental boats in the same category 35 without doing too much paperwork guidelines would be a 36 justification on slowing a crack in the system, so to 37 speak. 38 39 Because if commercial is getting 40 squeezed they squeeze the sport and then they squeeze 41 right down to the last part, but now there's an opening 42 there that is -- they're going to have to put a cap on 43 the amount of rental boats you can have. And 44 eventually that will come so it would be -- I would go 45 along with having something like that put in a proposal 46 as a concern about an expansion of the rental boats. 47 48 Thank you.



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1 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: All right. Yeah. 2 Thank you, Larry. 3 4 Any other Council members with ideas on 5 this topic. 6 7 MR. HOWARD: Mr. Chairman, this is 8 Albert. 9

10 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Go ahead, 11 Albert. 12 13 MR. HOWARD: I think the justification 14 part is you take six cohos times 6 days, that's 36. 15 Times 4 people, that's 144 cohos. And a five pound 16 average after you filet them. You take that times 5. 17 That equals 720 pounds of cohos taken by 4 people. In 18 boxes, fileted, ready to cook. 19 20 So as far as justification goes, I was 21 looking at my permits. I'm only allowed to catch 20 22 cohos for the year with my subsistence permit. So we 23 could use the State's own Constitution that the 24 resource belongs to everyone equally. Well, this 25 doesn't demonstrate equal ownership. This shows that 26 one user group's allowed more salmon than the 27 subsistence user, which according to the Federal 28 regulations is supposed to have priority. So that 29 could be our justification for asking for a smaller bag 30 limit for the salmon. 31 32 That's just a thought. 33 34 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 35 36 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: No. You're right, 37 Albert. I think we may have put that in the 38 justification of our previous proposal that, right, the 39 way the regulations are right now an out-of-state 40 sports fisherman can harvest more than is allowed by a 41 subsistence fisherman. So it certainly does -- I mean 42 it even violates the State's priority use guidelines. 43 So yeah, that's certainly a factor. It would be a good 44 justification. I agree. 45 46 MR. YEAGER: Mr. Chair. 47 48 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Anybody else.



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1 Go ahead. 2 3 MR. YEAGER: Mr. Chair, this is John 4 Yeager. 5 6 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yep. Go ahead, 7 John. 8 9 MR. YEAGER: I just have one more quick

10 comment on this topic. I think one of the things that 11 is most bothersome is that it shows that the State 12 doesn't want anyone else to take responsibility for a 13 resource. We are up here. We are getting bag limit 14 restrictions. We're taking on ourselves, practices 15 where we're -- possibly where we're not fishing as much 16 or we're doing things to help the resource, and it just 17 seems to me that the State doesn't care. They want to 18 invite everybody they can up from the Lower 48 and just 19 let them have a hay day up here on resources that 20 shouldn't be tapped that severely. 21 22 And along the lines with Mr. Howard, I 23 agree with the cohos. I mean they're getting harder 24 and harder to find at times around here. And when you 25 have four anglers on your boat and they expect to each 26 get six a day, every day that they're up here, I think 27 that's just -- it's ridiculous. And it puts a lot of 28 pressure on you as a guide. It puts pressure on the 29 resource. And it also makes all our fisheries turn 30 into this punch card fishery where you just go out 31 every day and you get your limit of this and your limit 32 of that. And it's totally taking that resource and 33 misusing it, in my opinion. 34 35 And I just think that the State needs 36 to be put to the fire. They need to realize this. And 37 I think that no one else really other than the people 38 that live here are truly understanding what we need to 39 do to keep these fish in the water. 40 41 Thank you. 42 43 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yep. Thank you, 44 John. You know, somebody else mentioned this earlier. 45 Maybe it was you. 46 47 You know, it's just the whole marketing 48 aspect of where we are right now. And, you know, 49 there's people promoting Alaska as, you know, the Last



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1 Wilderness and resources are abundant. You hear quite 2 often Alaska put forward as an example of, you know, 3 the best fisheries management in the world, you know, 4 because our resources are just abundant and boy, come 5 one, come all. You know, unfortunately I think it's a 6 little bit of a marketing hype that I don't think we're 7 really living up to. I mean you just kind of see too 8 much evidence of all the restrictions that are being 9 placed on various fisheries, you know, all around the

10 State. And we know we've got these environmental 11 factors working against us as well and, you know, 12 breaking that mindset is kind of hard to do, but, you 13 know, it has to start somewhere. 14 15 I think I've said in previous meetings 16 and I'm beginning to think it's becoming more and more 17 true. The more I think about it is, you know, 18 management is as much psychology as it is biology. You 19 know, the way you write regulations it kind of speaks 20 to the way people think about the resources. And if 21 you are giving the impression that everything is in 22 abundance then your regulations reflect that. But if 23 you start getting people to come to the realization 24 that well, you know, maybe there isn't enough for 25 everybody. That we need to have some regulation. 26 Regulation is a good thing. It starts bending the 27 point of view maybe to something a little more 28 reasonable. 29 30 So I think we have to keep hammering 31 away on it. I mean we see the implications quite 32 clearly and I think to a large degree it's probably up 33 to us. Because unfortunately you see on the Board of 34 Fish, you know, they're a captive group to the 35 commercial interests, in my view, and we are not. It's 36 kind of interesting. We're all commercial or so many 37 of us are commercial users, yet we put that aside and 38 we focus on, you know, what is necessary for people to 39 get enough that they can sustain their way of life and 40 we're able to put our commercial interests aside and 41 focus on that. 42 43 And I don't think the Board of Fish is 44 able to do that, in my opinion, and so I think it's 45 kind of up to us. 46 47 I think I heard somebody else trying 48 to..... 49



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1 MR. WRIGHT: Yeah, Mr. Chair. This is 2 Frank. 3

4 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Go ahead. This is

5 Frank or I hear Frank. Go ahead. 6

7 MR. WRIGHT: You know, on the

8 subsistence side of it, you know, when most of our

9 people run out to Hoktaheen, which is about 40 miles to

10 South Pass, then another 5 miles to Hoktaheen from

11 South Pass. You know, and we're limited to a number of

12 sockeyes we can get per household. And if we have four

13 people in the household we still wouldn't meet the

14 number of fish that these glory fishermen go after.

15 You know, so you're going 100 miles to get what you're

16 allowed out of a subsistence stream and that's for one

17 day. So if you want to go back you've got to go

18 another 100 miles. 19

20 So here we are. We're talking about

21 what the guided tours can do. What those unguided

22 vessels can do. And here we are as a subsistence

23 village. We're struggling to go 100 miles just for

24 what we need. You know, and then you've got the

25 definition of subsistence. That's not what subsistence

26 is. We're spending everything we have in a community

27 that has limited employment on gas just to go to that

28 place. 29

30 So it doesn't seem fair when you've got

31 a camp across the bay here Sturgeon Inlet that can just

32 jump in their unguided skiff and go two or three miles

33 and fish and catch their limit every day. Six one day,

34 six the next day. And if they've got more people in a

35 skiff then they could go to town. So the fairness of

36 this whole thing is backwards. I think the State is

37 just worried about people coming here and looking at

38 the beauty of this place. It is beautiful, but for the

39 people that live in the area it's a struggle. 40

41 You know, and then last year I caught a

42 king salmon. You know, I said all right. I'll just

43 take it home and go eat it because I already caught it

44 and then ripped its gills out. And it was one inch

45 short. And I got fined for it. I told my wife I was

46 bringing a fish home to have chow. I got fined for it.

47 But anyway, you know, the cultural value -- our culture

48 says you don't waste stuff. And here it was. The fish

49 was dead. So anyway, I still got fined for it. You



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1 know, it's backwards. 2 3 You know, in all the communities of 4 Southeast where we all live, we all realize that we're 5 not supposed to waste, but sometimes the Department of 6 Fish and Game or law enforcement doesn't have any idea 7 what we're talking about. So because someone made a 8 law they think that that's the way it's supposed to be. 9

10 But anyway, I'll get off my box and 11 such. 12 13 I'm kind of frustrated with this 14 unguided thing. You know, in Juneau I was over there 15 one time and this place over there had a whole van full 16 of boxes coming off. I said my God, where did that 17 come from. Yeah. Doc Warner says holy man, that's a 18 lot of fish. If they can figure out how to freeze a 19 halibut and keep it from going bad, I'd sure like to 20 know how they do it. You know, I've been trying to 21 figure that one out for a while. After years, and I 22 did, doesn't taste good, anyway, we still eat it. 23 24 Anyway, thanks for talking about this 25 issue. I'm out. 26 27 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. There's a 28 lot of things that just aren't right with what's going 29 on, Frank. You're right about that. 30 31 Is there anybody else on the Council 32 that wants to say something about this. 33 34 MR. ROBBINS: Mr. Chair. 35 36 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yep. Go ahead. 37 38 MR. ROBBINS: This is Harold Robbins. 39 40 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yep. Go ahead. 41 42 MR. ROBBINS: Yeah. We have observed 43 here in the Yakutat area a lot of abuse from the 44 sportfish people going out and they'll take and go out 45 in the bay, take six, turn around and drive out to the 46 river and take two or four or whatever is allowed 47 there, all in the same day and figure that's all within 48 the same limit. And so you see a lot of that 49 happening.



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1 And personally, my son has a sportfish 2 camp. It's out of town. And he runs a camp limit. He 3 loses some clients that way, but it works out well for 4 him in the end. And he just runs a four fish limit. 5 You know, you're allowed to take two fish a day every 6 day you're there, but out of the five days he says no, 7 we're only taking four fish and that's all he allows 8 the camp to take. And by setting that standard, the 9 clientele seems to have a really good time and they

10 don't have a problem with it. You know, some people 11 won't come, but that's fine. You've eliminated that. 12 13 That's all I have. 14 15 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. That's a 16 good point, Harold. Some people want to come for the 17 experience, but as I've seen here in our community, 18 some people are out for poundage. There's just two 19 different clientele I think for sure. 20 21 So I think our challenge might be 22 coming up with a reasonable proposal that, you know, 23 might address the broader situation. And like I say, 24 there are a lot of aspects to it. 25 26 Something I don't think anybody else 27 mentioned that I see here is a real problem and I've 28 talked to the Troopers about to see if they'll do 29 anything about it. But, you know, our fishing grounds 30 here on Point Baker are, you know, in a skiff you don't 31 have to go more than five minutes away basically to be 32 fishing on a good spot. And I see boats headed out at 33 4:00 o'clock in the morning. They come in for 34 breakfast. They might unload a fish. You know, that 35 fish is cut up, put in a freezer immediately. They're 36 back out fishing again. Nobody knows if they got their 37 bag limit for the day on halibut or rockfish. 38 39 They come back in for lunch. You know, 40 same thing might happen. They go back out. They come 41 in for dinner. Could be the same thing. They could 42 have another bag limit. I think it's even legal. Once 43 that fish is in the freezer it's not in your possession 44 anymore. You know, they go out after dinner. They're 45 fishing 16 hours a day, coming in multiple times, 46 unloading fish. How the heck are you supposed to keep 47 track of their bag limits, you know. It's almost 48 impossible. 49



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1 And I think it might even be legal 2 because once they're in the freezer they're not in 3 their possession anymore and they can go get another 4 bag limit. So I don't know. That's another loophole. 5 And I don't know. That loophole might be able to be 6 addressed in a, you know, holistic way by coming up 7 with a proposal that covers all these situations. 8 9 So I think that's kind of what I'm

10 looking at. A broadly based, worded proposal. And it 11 might be the simplest proposal possible might be the 12 best way to address all issues. And, you know, the 13 best way to do that might be just as simple as if you 14 are renting a boat from somebody, you are considered to 15 be guided and follow all the guide rules. You know, 16 and justify that by, you know, as long as that boat has 17 a GPS. And everybody has a GPS right now. They don't 18 even have to provide it in the boat. You know, it's on 19 your smart phone, you know. And boy, that's all you 20 need. If you're being provided with a boat to go 21 fishing, you're guided and you follow all the guide 22 rules. 23 24 And every outfit that's in the business 25 of -- whether they're renting a room and trying to say 26 oh, you know, we're not renting a boat, we're just 27 renting a room, but the boat is included or whatever. 28 If they're providing transportation to go fishing, they 29 have to provide a logbook and, you know..... 30 31 MR. WRIGHT: Mr. Chair. 32 33 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: A logbook for 34 accountability and you fish under the guided sportfish 35 limit. 36 37 So yeah, I think I heard Frank. 38 39 Go ahead. 40 41 MR. WRIGHT: Yeah, Mr. Chair. You 42 know, I was just thinking that, you know, we will 43 struggle with this as long as the person in that 44 unguided vessel who's supposed to keep his log. So the 45 person that -- so I think that a possibility might be 46 that it would be the responsibility of the owner to 47 make sure he checks every time that boat he rented out 48 and then make sure he takes the log instead of the 49 person that's going to be taking the log that is not



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1 going to be recorded. 2 3 You know, so that -- and, you know, if 4 the guide's the person that is renting out his vessel 5 and he's not going to take a log, then he should not be 6 in business of any kind because that would be a 7 violation, you know, so that -- you know, because I 8 know the person that is in the skiff is not going to 9 keep a log, but the vessel renter should at least go

10 down to hey, you got -- just let me see what you got. 11 So we need to put this down. So that's just a thought. 12 13 Thank you. 14 15 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: You know, I agree, 16 Frank. I think the responsibility should be on the 17 business owner. They would have to be responsible for 18 making sure that that logbook was filled out and check 19 on people, that they're reporting their catches. I 20 agree. 21 22 MS. PERRY: Mr. Chair. 23 24 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: I think I hear 25 DeAnna. 26 27 MS. PERRY: Yes. This is DeAnna. 28 29 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Go ahead. 30 31 MS. PERRY: I just wanted to let you 32 and the Council know that I was able to find the 33 proposals that were submitted by this Council back in 34 2017 on this matter. And there was also a letter 35 supporting those proposals from Mike Bangs. I could 36 provide those to the group working on this proposal if 37 you feel that would be helpful as a starting point. 38 39 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: That probably 40 would be helpful, DeAnna. And I kind of figured you'd 41 be coming up with that, so very good. Thank you. 42 43 So we've been kind of focusing on this 44 one proposal. At some point we're going to have to 45 come up with some wording. I'm looking for suggestions 46 on what's the best way to accomplish that. 47 48 Anybody got any ideas there. 49



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1 (No comments) 2 3 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: I think what might 4 be a good idea is to take a short break here. Let's 5 make it a 15-minute break. And come back and maybe 6 we'll have some ideas after the break. 7 8 How does that sound. 9

10 (Council responds affirmatively) 11 12 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yep. Fifteen 13 means we recess until 3:30. 14 15 (Off record) 16 17 (On record) 18 19 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. We'll 20 reconvene here and take up where we left off on 21 generating proposals to be put into the State Board of 22 Fish. 23 24 We spent a lot of time discussing how 25 to deal with coming up with a proposal for non-resident 26 -- now what's the term I'm using. Non-resident, non- 27 guided fishing. Non-guided fishing. 28 29 So we've had a lot of discussion on 30 this. We've had a lot of good thoughts put together. 31 I think where we are now is, you know, DeAnna said 32 she's got some more information for us on what we've 33 done in the past. At some point we're probably going 34 to have to consult with our Staff on, you know, what 35 present regulation is and how to best address this. And 36 what we typically do with proposals is get an 37 opportunity usually during the meeting to sit aside in 38 a side group at some point and hash out how we might 39 come up with the wording. I think that's going to be 40 pretty difficult to do on a teleconference without 41 everybody in the same vicinity. But I think what we 42 could do at least for this one proposal, which is 43 fairly complex. 44 45 What I'm going to suggest is that we've 46 had a good discussion on it. We might end up having a 47 little more discussion as well, but we're building a 48 pretty good record here of the issues before the 49 Council and some ideas on how we want to address them.



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1 What I would like to do is something that we've done in 2 the past, is establish a work group that could get

3 together with Staff probably over a separate

4 teleconference. And I'm thinking if we don't have time

5 to do that while we're meeting the rest of today and

6 tomorrow, which I'm not sure we will, we could meet

7 after our meeting concludes on teleconference and the

8 work group could craft the wording to a proposal and I

9 would review that. And if I feel it meets all the

10 discussion points that we had here this afternoon I

11 guess we would submit that proposal before the

12 deadline, which I think is the latter part of April. 13

14 So Council members, what's your feeling

15 on that approach. Putting together a work group and

16 coming up with wording by a work group on just this

17 single proposal only so far. 18

19 Frank, what's your feeling on that. 20

21 MR. WRIGHT: That's a good idea, but

22 how do we get together? Or do we maybe just have a

23 template of how we're going to do this? 24

25 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Well, we would

26 have to, you know, set up another teleconference or two

27 with fisheries Staff that hopefully will be, you know,

28 have good familiarity with what the State statutes are,

29 the regulations are, and do a little research. And we

30 would be meeting by teleconference again obviously. So

31 that's what I envision. 32

33 Do you think that's workable, Frank? 34

35 MR. WRIGHT: Yep. 36


38 Mike Douville. What's your feelings on this? 39

40 MR. DOUVILLE: Mike Douville here.

41 Yeah. I think that would work. 42

43 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Bob

44 Schroeder? 45

46 (No comment) 47

48 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Bob, you got an

49 opinion on this?



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1 (No comment) 2 3 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: How about Albert. 4 What do you think on this, Albert. Do you think that 5 will work? 6 7 MR. HOWARD: I think that will work, 8 Mr. Chair, and I would like to volunteer Bob for that 9 since he's not here.

10 11 (Laughter) 12 13 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Well, we're going 14 to get to the volunteers in a little bit, but I was 15 sure hoping you'd be one of the volunteers. But we'll 16 get back to that. 17 18 How about Harold Robbins. 19 20 MR. ROBBINS: Sounds good to me. 21 22 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: And John Yeager? 23 24 MR. YEAGER: Mr. Chair, yes. I think 25 that will work. And I will be a part of that if you 26 would like me to. And I agree that Bob should be 27 involved as well just because he can't answer at the 28 moment. 29 30 (Laughter) 31 32 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Very good. 33 34 How about you, Larry. Are you back 35 with us? 36 37 MR. BEMIS: Yes, I am. I agree. That 38 sounds good. And Bob would probably enjoy it. 39 40 (Laughter) 41 42 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Thank you, 43 Larry. 44 45 Cathy, what do you think? 46 47 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I 48 think that sounds like a great way forward. 49



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1 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. And how 2 about you, Bob. Have you signed back on, everybody's 3 already volunteered you for the effort. You'd better 4 defend yourself now or..... 5 6 (No comment) 7 8 MS. NEEDHAM: I think he is having some 9 technical difficulties actually.

10 11 (Laughter) 12 13 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Technical 14 difficulties. Okay. 15 16 MS. NEEDHAM: Well, I think he got 17 kicked off and now cannot climb back in. So he's 18 unable to..... 19 20 MR. SCHROEDER: Bob is back online. 21 22 MS. NEEDHAM: Oh, there you are. 23 24 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Oh, there he is. 25 26 MR. SCHROEDER: Yeah. I just get cut 27 off every once in a while. 28 29 I think you've got a really good way to 30 proceed, Don, and this is pretty much what we've done 31 in the past. To have a reasonable record in our 32 transcript and then to work on the exact wording for 33 proposals by a work group with Staff assistance. 34 35 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Very good. 36 Thank you, Bob. 37 38 Okay. It sounds like that's what we'll 39 do. I think I've heard a couple of volunteers already. 40 If we're ready to set up the work group now, we could 41 do that. If people want to think about it a little 42 more, we can hold off till later. 43 44 So I know I heard John. 45 46 Albert, I twisted your arm. Do you 47 want to be involved in that? 48 49 MR. HOWARD: Sure, Mr. Chairman. If



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1 that's what you need. 2 3 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. I think you 4 would be a real help there. 5 6 Larry, did I hear that you would be on 7 this work group? 8 9 (No comment)

10 11 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Are you there, 12 Larry? 13 14 MR. BEMIS: Yes. 15 16 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: You would want to 17 be on the work group? 18 19 MR. BEMIS: Yes. 20 21 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Very good. 22 23 MR. BEMIS: Sure. 24 25 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Those are 26 the people that I heard from. Is there anybody else 27 who would like to be involved in this. 28 29 MR. DOUVILLE: Mr. Chair, this is Mike 30 Douville. 31 32 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Hi, Mike. 33 Do you want to be on it? 34 35 MR. DOUVILLE: When Bob was AWOL I 36 heard several people appoint him. Okay? 37 38 (Laughter) 39 40 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Bob, you'd better 41 speak up. 42 43 MR. SCHROEDER: I don't think I have 44 talents that could be well applied to this task. 45 46 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. We'll 47 accept that. We finally found something that you're 48 not expertise in. That's good to know. 49



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1 Did you want to volunteer, Mike? 2 3 MR. HOWARD: Mr. Chairman, it sounds 4 like Bob volunteered to take blame. 5 6 (Laughter) 7 8 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Let's see. I 9 think Frank, I haven't heard from you. Do you want to

10 be involved in this? 11 12 MR. WRIGHT: No, thanks. 13 14 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Very good. 15 16 And Cathy, how about you? 17 18 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I 19 think I'll leave it to the experts. The ones that know 20 this well, like John and Albert. I think they're going 21 to -- I mean they have the most of the discussion on 22 it. And yourself, actually. I'm not volunteering you, 23 but you have that whole Point Baker perspective and it 24 seems like it should definitely get represented in 25 there. 26 27 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. I was going 28 to volunteer. And yeah, we've got some real expertise 29 here in the folks that have been in the guiding 30 business, so it should be real helpful and they're real 31 familiar with the issues. So we'll set up a working 32 group with John, Albert, Larry, and myself. Okay. 33 Done. 34 35 Still got some time here. Oh, excuse 36 me. We need to talk about Staff availability, I guess, 37 to help us out on this. So I guess we'll obviously 38 need DeAnna for logistics. 39 40 You're always available, right, DeAnna? 41 42 MS. PERRY: Yes. 43 44 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. And then 45 somebody in the fisheries Staff that might be fairly 46 familiar with the Board process and State regulations. 47 48 I hear some voices. Is somebody 49 stepping forward?



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1 MR. SUMINSKI: Yeah, Don. This is 2 Terry Suminski. Myself and Justin and Jake can help 3 with this. 4 5 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Very good. I hear 6 Terry, Justin, and who was the third name? 7 8 MR. SUMINSKI: Jake Musselwhite. 9

10 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Oh, okay. Jake. 11 Very good. Okay. I think we've got it. 12 13 Okay. If things are going well here at 14 this meeting and we've got some time, we might be able 15 to set up a conference here possibly tomorrow before 16 the end of the meeting. We'll see how that goes. If 17 we take a long recess or something we could maybe get 18 started. If not, we'll get together after the meeting 19 is over. 20 21 Okay. So we've still got some time 22 here this afternoon. Let's move on to some of the 23 other suggested proposals. And I am looking at -- 24 let's see. I think the first thing I had on my list 25 was something to deal with subsistence shrimp. And I 26 think it was Albert that brought this to our attention, 27 although it's been brought to our attention before. I 28 think if we had somebody here from Sitka still they 29 would be talking about it. 30 31 But Albert, have you given any thought 32 to what we need to do here as far as a proposal? 33 34 MR. HOWARD: I think it would have to 35 be when creating another commercial fishery because I'm 36 not sure -- a subsistence resource that the resource 37 should be given consideration for traditional use 38 determination based on what was used before they made 39 it a commercial -- before they added the commercial 40 user group to the resource. I see this happening on a 41 lot of future things. 42 43 The next thing I've seen was the kelp. 44 An outfit out of Juneau is now finding ways to use kelp 45 in their restaurants and that could be consistent with 46 what we heard on the presentation about herring. So I 47 think somewhere in there we need to have a mechanism 48 when they're going to add a commercial user group to an 49 existing subsistence resource, they need to give that



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1 subsistence user priority to the resource if they have 2 already been using it. 3

4 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Right. It seems

5 fairly straightforward. Yeah. They seem to be

6 ignoring the traditional use and not prioritizing the

7 subsistence use and when there's a commercial fishery

8 that kind of develops. 9

10 We might need a little bit of help with

11 wording on this one as well. 12

13 MS. KENNER: Mr. Chair, this is Pippa

14 Kenner. 15

16 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Pippa, go

17 ahead if you can help us out here. 18

19 MS. KENNER: Well, I don't know if I

20 can, but what I did is I've contacted Lauren Sill, who

21 works for Subsistence Division at the Alaska Department

22 of Fish and Game. And I don't know if she's on right

23 now, but I asked her if she could call in. With State

24 C&Ts and amounts necessary for subsistence, it's

25 difficult for me to get that information online and she

26 might have it at her fingertips. But I just wanted to

27 let you know. 28

29 I don't know if there is an existing

30 customary and traditional use determination for -- is

31 it shrimp that we're talking about? 32

33 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yes. 34

35 MS. KENNER: Yes. I'm not sure if

36 there already is one. And then I think the member was

37 speaking to the amounts necessary for subsistence,

38 which is a determination that is made to see if the

39 subsistence priority is, you know, being met. Maybe I

40 could work with Staff over at Fish and Game and try to

41 get some of that information for you. 42

43 Would you like that? 44

45 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: I think that would

46 be very helpful. Yeah. 47

48 MS. KENNER: Okay. I'll work on it

49 now.



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1 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Yeah. See 2 what you can do there. 3 4 So Albert, let's just kind of put that 5 one on hold for now. I think it would be helpful to 6 know how the State views the customary and traditional 7 use of shrimp right now and see what might need to be 8 changed, if anything. 9

10 So Albert, while we're talking you 11 brought up a couple other possible proposals. It 12 sounds like your community is interested in a special 13 use area for Dungeness crab; is that correct? 14 15 MR. HOWARD: Yes, Mr. Chair. And three 16 organizations working together. I believe it was 2009, 17 maybe 2010, they put like nine proposals together that 18 were areas of concern to the tribe, the city, and the 19 corporation. And those areas were Mitchell Bay, 20 Favorite Bay, Hood Bay, and Chaeeke (ph) closed to 21 commercial crabbing. Having a discussion with 22 President Frank and the local Mayor, maybe just 23 Favorite Bay and Mitchell Bay closed to commercial 24 crabbing would work for Angoon. That would leave them 25 Hood Bay and Chaeeke. 26 27 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: I see. It sounds 28 like you've given some thought to this locally. I 29 think a question I have is are there any probably 30 preferably groups, and Angoon, I'm thinking that would 31 probably be maybe your local tribe, are they 32 contemplating putting in a proposal to address this? 33 And do you think it would be more effective to have 34 them put in the proposal and then ask the Advisory 35 Council or ask us to -- we have a chance also, you 36 know, in this process to weigh in on proposals and kind 37 of comment on the ones that we think are important for 38 subsistence and then endorse those before the Board 39 meeting. Do you think it would be more effective to 40 have a local group put in the actual proposal and then 41 ask the Council to endorse it? 42 43 MR. HOWARD: Yes, Mr. Chair. That will 44 come from the Traditional Food Council is what they're 45 called here in Angoon. They're set up and supported by 46 the local IRA to address these concerns. I think 47 something we can look at and that is common across the 48 board is the bag limit on salmon for guided and self- 49 guided vessels and non-resident anglers should be four



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1 salmon per day, freshwater or saltwater. 2 3 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Right. Yeah. 4 Yes. You mentioned the Traditional Food Council, which 5 sounds like a really good thing to have in the 6 community. That actually sounds like a pretty 7 powerful, could be a pretty powerful voice. Are there 8 any of these other proposals that you think maybe the 9 Traditional Food Council would want to put forward and

10 ask the Council to endorse? 11 12 I don't know. Maybe it's a question 13 that you can't answer right now without consulting with 14 them, but I could see some possibilities there. 15 16 MR. HOWARD: Yeah, Mr. Chairman. 17 They're currently working on proposals they want to 18 submit to the Board of Fish, but they're -- I'm working 19 with them. They're calling me their cheap consultant 20 because I don't charge them anything. 21 22 (Laughter) 23 24 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Right. 25 26 MR. HOWARD: So I'm working closely 27 with them. I was part of their -- actually, the 28 Traditional Food Council was set up during my time as 29 president of the IRA to address our concerns with the 30 resource management within Chatham Strait and 31 everything in our backyard. So I will have the 32 president of the tribe send DeAnna and the rest of the 33 Council their proposals and maybe communicate through 34 email or something on your thoughts and the rest of the 35 Council's thoughts on supporting the proposals they're 36 going to put forward. 37 38 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Right. Well, that 39 is a regular part of the Council business. When we 40 meet in the fall we will also be looking at any State 41 proposals that we want to back. So yeah, we would 42 definitely want to see anything that comes out of your 43 Traditional Food Council. 44 45 So I guess the main question is right 46 now, are some of these topics things that we as a 47 Council want to submit. How about I'm looking at your 48 issue with the gillnet fishing and the ability to tie 49 off a gillnet if it's attended. I know that's been an



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1 issue here with the gillnet fisheries in our area. It 2 sounds like it's an issue in your area as well. I

3 don't know if you Traditional Food Council was thinking

4 about putting in a proposal to address that. I could

5 see that as being a region-wide proposal myself. 6

7 Do you have any thoughts on that? 8

9 MR. HOWARD: Mr. Chair, I will talk

10 with the Council about that, but I figured it might be

11 a region-wide type deal. Currently, community members

12 know I go and beach seine by myself, but according to

13 the regulations I can't even tie the beach seine to the

14 beach. Somebody has to be holding it. Now I can't tow

15 the seine and hold it at the same time. I still

16 haven't figured out how to do that one yet. So I tie

17 it to the beach and in doing so I risk getting a

18 citation for tying my beach seine to the beach so I can

19 tow the other end and then bring both ends together.

20 So that's why I thought this might be necessary. 21

22 And in other areas it would be kind of

23 nice if I could anchor my gillnet while I'm cleaning

24 fish and clipping fins. And let it fish while I'm

25 doing that so I don't get -- two things could happen.

26 I could either get a ticket for anchoring my gillnet

27 while I'm clipping fins according to regulation on

28 sockeye. 29

30 So these two things could be regional.

31 Same thing with the salmon bag limit. That could also

32 be region-wide where we ask the Board to have a four

33 salmon a day bag limit for freshwater and saltwater.

34 Not four freshwater, not four saltwater, but four

35 total. That would address the issue I heard coming out

36 of Yakutat. 37

38 So thank you, Mr. Chair. 39

40 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: All right. Yeah.

41 Okay. 42

43 MR. DOUVILLE: Mr. Chair. 44

45 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Somebody else want

46 to weigh in? 47

48 MR. DOUVILLE: Yeah. This is Mike

49 Douville.



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1 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Go ahead, 2 Mike. 3

4 MR. DOUVILLE: Just some general

5 information. The only shrimp restriction with a State

6 personal use permit is District 13. And your

7 possession limit is ten gallons a day. The rest of

8 Southeast has no limit when it comes to a personal use

9 permit. However, with a sport permit it's more

10 restrictive. I don't have those regs in front of me,

11 but I know it's much less. And you have to have a

12 permit for that also. 13

14 Anyway, just general information.

15 Okay. 16

17 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Thanks,

18 Mike. 19

20 Is there anybody else who wanted to add

21 anything to what we've been talking about. 22

23 (No comments) 24

25 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Yeah. This

26 is where it gets pretty hard doing this kind of stuff

27 over the phone. 28

29 I would like to be able to come up with

30 some, you know, wording on some of these proposals

31 while we're in the meeting. You may have to ask folks,

32 the Council members to try and come up with some

33 specific wording maybe during the evenings, and come

34 back and present it to the Council tomorrow. 35

36 I think we might need to know if any of

37 these other proposals might need some Staff assistance

38 in preparing. If so, we might want to ask for that now

39 at this time. 40

41 Anybody have any requests there for

42 Staff assistance on any proposal. 43

44 (No comments) 45

46 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Right now it looks

47 like we're going to ask for Lauren Sill from the

48 Subsistence Division to help us out with a shrimp

49 proposal. And I know we've got our fisheries people



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1 going to help out with a non-guided sportfishing 2 proposal, but that will probably happen with a working 3 group. 4 5 But are there any other proposals that 6 anybody thinks they want to ask for Staff assistance. 7 8 MS. NEEDHAM: Mr. Chair. 9

10 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Go ahead. 11 Is that Cathy? 12 13 MS. NEEDHAM: Yeah. Thank you, Mr. 14 Chair. This is Cathy. Can you just quickly, I kind of 15 lost track. So I got the shrimp one. I got the 16 unguided, non-resident sportfish. Can you let me know 17 what other proposals are that we'll draft, with just 18 the main topic of them so I can write them down? 19 20 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: It sounds like we 21 might want to draft something on tying off an attended 22 subsistence net, gillnet or beach seine potentially. 23 24 And I think the only other one is 25 dealing with king salmon closures in regards to 26 subsistence take of king salmon. I think I..... 27 28 MS. NEEDHAM: Okay. 29 30 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: I think we've 31 heard from Albert that their Traditional Food Council 32 will probably address the special use area for crab in 33 the Angoon area. 34 35 So I think that's where we are. 36 37 MS. NEEDHAM: Mr. Chair, so this is 38 Cathy again. I'm wondering if we should -- I know that 39 DeAnna has reserved a couple of conference lines to 40 facilitate some work groups and I'm wondering if we 41 should take these other three proposals, sort of split 42 them up onto those other conferences lines and plan to 43 have the Council members and supporting Staff call into 44 those teleconference lines at 9:00 a.m. tomorrow. And 45 then, you know, we recess and come back together as a 46 whole Council on this line at 10:00, 10:30 or whatever 47 time that you want to do it. And then we can work a 48 little bit in the evening and come to those 49 teleconference lines in the morning with some proposed



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1 language to go over and try to tighten them up and then 2 bring them back to the Council. 3

4 Would that be an idea of a way to kind

5 of move forward. 6

7 MS. PERRY: Mr. Chair. 8

9 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Go ahead,

10 DeAnna. 11

12 MS. PERRY: I know that our public

13 meeting has been posted widely as starting at 9:00

14 a.m., so if a work group met we might want to look at

15 doing it at 8:00 a.m. so that our public meeting can

16 start at 9:00 as has been posted and published in the

17 Federal Register. 18

19 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. You're

20 right, DeAnna. I think we would have to comply with

21 that. 22

23 But, you know, Cathy, I think that

24 might be a workable solution here. I think that's what

25 we're going to have to do. 26

27 I'm just looking at the agenda here.

28 The only other topics are our annual report and then we

29 go into agency reports, which there's a number of

30 agency reports we might be spending some time on, but I

31 think if we get to those tomorrow afternoon we'll

32 probably be okay. We do hopefully have Regional

33 Forester Dave Schmid available tomorrow afternoon. So

34 yeah, I think we've got plenty of time. 35

36 Let's do that. 37

38 I don't want to move into any new

39 topics right now. I want to focus on proposals. It's

40 only 4:00 o'clock, but that kind of gives us maybe some

41 time this afternoon as well to spend about an hour

42 discussing kind of breaking up into some work groups

43 here to work on proposals. And we also have tomorrow,

44 an hour or so tomorrow morning as well. So I think

45 that would be time well spent doing that. So I think

46 that's what we're going to do. 47

48 And DeAnna, the only question is if we

49 want to put together some work groups we might need a



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1 couple of different open lines here. We would probably 2 break into at least two different committees. So I 3 think that's possible. 4 5 MS. PERRY: I do have two telephone 6 lines currently scheduled for this afternoon and 7 evening. I didn't reserve anything for tomorrow 8 morning, so I'll need to do that. But I think we might 9 need to look at who is participating in what group so

10 that I can make sure I give the right materials to 11 folks. 12 13 I know Albert was listed under the 14 unguided fisherman work group and it looks like maybe 15 he needs to give me a key person on another group. And 16 all of our Staff was going to do the unguided 17 fisherman, so perhaps, I think Cathy suggested or you, 18 Don, maybe have two groups. And each group has two 19 proposals they're working on. And we can divvy folks 20 up that way, or at least the Staff, and then find out 21 what Council members would like to participate on the 22 other work groups. 23 24 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Except I'm 25 going to push the unguided sportfishing proposal off to 26 either the end of the meeting or possibly after the 27 meeting is over. I want to focus now on just the other 28 few proposals that we have that I think we can probably 29 resolve here during our meeting time. So..... 30 31 MS. PERRY: I would just encourage you 32 that if you're going to push off proposal drafting that 33 we build a good record and the Council does, you know, 34 vote on the record as to its intent on unguided 35 fishermen. If we don't have the language up front like 36 we normally do, you know, show it on a screen and 37 everybody reads it and votes, I think we should at 38 least be clear on the intent and that the Council is on 39 the record as far as its intent for the proposal before 40 the end of our meeting. 41 42 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Right. I think 43 we've got a pretty good record on how the Council wants 44 to approach this. And yeah, we will establish a vote 45 on at least some preliminary ideas on how we're going 46 to address it that just need to be fleshed out by 47 committee. 48 49 So that's what we'll do.



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1 MS. NEEDHAM: Mr. Chair. 2 3 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yep. Go ahead, 4 Cathy. 5 6 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 7 This is Cathy. I would recommend that for the three 8 remaining potential proposals that we break it up that 9 one work group work on the shrimp proposal. I think

10 that one seems like it most be the most complicated to 11 go through and we need some assistance from Lauren 12 Sill. Possibly Pippa Kenner can help us with that one 13 as well. 14 15 And then put the king salmon and the 16 tie off gillnet proposals in the other work group since 17 we have two lines and we're kind of splitting up into 18 two sets. I could be wrong, but that's my suggestion. 19 20 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 21 22 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. It sounds 23 like a good suggestion. 24 25 Any other Council members have thoughts 26 on that. 27 28 (No comments) 29 30 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. So let's 31 establish them now and then we'll get the phone lines 32 figured out. 33 34 How about I do this. I'm going to go 35 through Council members. We've got three proposals 36 that we need to work on. I'll ask each Council member 37 if they have a preference on what they would like to 38 work on. 39 40 Let's see. Frank? 41 42 MR. WRIGHT: I'll work on the guided. 43 44 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: We're not going to 45 do that one right away. 46 47 MR. WRIGHT: Oh. 48 49 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: We've got you down



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1 for that later. How about just for now subsistence 2 shrimp, subsistence king salmon, and subsistence 3 gillnet. Have you got a preference on one of those? 4 5 MR. WRIGHT: Yeah. King salmon. 6 7 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: King salmon. Very 8 good. Okay. 9

10 Mike Douville? 11 12 MR. DOUVILLE: He's absent. 13 14 (Laughter) 15 16 MR. DOUVILLE: Would you list those 17 again? I think there was three, but I guess we're 18 working on two; is that correct? 19 20 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: No. We've got 21 three options here. The subsistence shrimp, king 22 salmon or gillnetting. 23 24 MR. DOUVILLE: I don't know. I could 25 try to help with any of them. You know, I don't have a 26 personal preference. Okay. 27 28 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Could I suggest 29 shrimp? You seem to have some knowledge on that. 30 31 MR. DOUVILLE: Okay. I'll try to help 32 the shrimp. 33 34 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Very good. 35 36 Bob? 37 38 MR. SCHROEDER: I'm wondering if it 39 might be better if I work on a letter concerning 40 roadless, but I'll take whatever you want to give me if 41 there's something else as well. 42 43 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Well, I'm not 44 going to assign anybody. If you want to take some time 45 to give some thought to the roadless issue to come back 46 to the Council with, that's fine. 47 48 MR. SCHROEDER: Yeah. I'm kind of -- I 49 know we're not discussing that right now, but I'm kind



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1 of thinking that maybe we keep it simple this time, 2 although we should append a good deal of information to 3 our, what I would hope would be a single-page letter 4 simply saying that we believe that the process was 5 fatally flawed and it needs to go back to go and follow 6 the provisions of ANILCA, and fit that on one page. 7 8 Over. 9

10 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. We'll 11 appoint you, a committee of one, although we may all be 12 able to spend some more time with that as well. But 13 for now, if that's what you want to devote some extra 14 time to, that's fine. 15 16 MR. SCHROEDER: Great. Thank you. 17 18 MR. HOWARD: Mr. Chair. 19 20 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yes, Albert. Go 21 ahead. 22 23 MR. HOWARD: I've been thinking about 24 this. If Bob's still there and he's listening, I think 25 he would be valuable to the shrimp part. And this is 26 why. Listening to him, every time he has something to 27 say, he refers back to ANILCA and the language in it 28 and his understanding of it may be able to help us get 29 our point across. 30 31 And the point being when the State 32 creates a new fishery that a subsistence fishery 33 already exists on, that they need to keep that 34 subsistence priority in mind. That was the whole 35 intention of that shrimp part was to make sure they 36 never do that to a subsistence user again. And I 37 believe that Unit 13 is Hoonah Sound and that's where 38 Sitka was traditionally using as a subsistence resource 39 and taking home more than ten gallons a day. 40 41 So that's my thought. And Bob could 42 still say he's going to stay on the roadless, but I 43 think his value to try to figure out how to get the 44 State to understand we would like them to consider 45 subsistence priority whenever creating a new fishery. 46 47 So thank you, Mr. Chair. 48 49 MR. DOUVILLE: Mr. Chairman. This is



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1 Mike Douville. 2 3 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yes. Go ahead, 4 Mike. 5 6 MR. DOUVILLE: I know that Sitka is 7 working on something related or involving this 8 particular thing and I think it would be interesting to 9 see what they're doing before we take off in any

10 direction. We had some discussion about this at our AC 11 meeting, but we have to have -- we're scheduled to have 12 another one and I think it will be discussed a bit 13 further. But it would seem like to me it makes sense 14 to see what the Sitka Tribe is doing or those involved 15 in that process before we get into anything. 16 17 And I guess I would like to know 18 because I don't live in Sitka, I'm not affected by it. 19 I would like to know what their thinking is, what a 20 more acceptable bag limit might be. Personally, I 21 think 10 gallons of shrimp for my household is a 22 significant amount. I mean it's okay. You can go back 23 the next day and get some more. It is a bit of a ride 24 or a distance and that's probably what their thinking 25 is. They only need to go once. So I think it all 26 needs to -- we need to have some more information 27 before we can make a decision on this particular issue. 28 29 And as far as starting another fishery, 30 I know that applies to commercial fishing. The State 31 cannot develop another fishery that interferes with an 32 already established one, but I don't think that applies 33 across. I've never seen the comparison applying to 34 cross to subsistence or something like that. I know it 35 does apply to a commercial fishery because there was 36 some effort to make the charter fleet commercial. And 37 they all had to have numbers at one time and register 38 and so on, but they found that they violated their own 39 rules and were starting another fishery where there was 40 already one established, so that all went away. 41 42 So it seems to me I would really like 43 to know what the Sitka Tribe has in mind before we try 44 to develop something. 45 46 Thank you. 47 48 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: That's a good 49 point, Mike. Yeah. This issue initially came from



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1 Sitka Tribe and it would be good to know if they're 2 working on a proposal. It might be one of those where 3 somebody else puts in the proposal and asks the Council 4 to endorse it or back it. 5 6 Is there somebody on the Staff who 7 could be in contact with somebody at Sitka Tribe. I 8 know it's kind of difficult right now because people 9 aren't working at offices. They would have to get a

10 hold of them at home, I guess. But is there anybody 11 listening on the Staff. Maybe somebody over there in 12 Sitka who thinks they could find out if something is in 13 the works. 14 15 MR. KOLLER: Mr. Chair, this is Justin 16 over here. I'm in contact with somebody right now, I'm 17 waiting for an answer. I'm not sure if I'm going to 18 get one very quickly, but I would imagine possibly we 19 could reach out to maybe Harvey Kitka and see if he 20 knows of anything going on. 21 22 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. That's a 23 good idea. I sure with Harvey was here, but 24 unfortunately he's not. So okay. 25 26 Well, let's hold off on that one. 27 28 MR. HOWARD: Mr. Chairman. 29 30 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Albert, go 31 ahead. 32 33 MR. HOWARD: I just used the shrimp as 34 an example. I wasn't trying to address that because 35 that was kind of a done deal in the fisheries 36 department, I guess. 37 38 The point I was trying to make was any 39 fishery that's going to be created not follow that 40 model anymore. And I guess what we need to do then is 41 say that any subsistence use should be recognized as a 42 fishery. Maybe that then before they create anything 43 else. 44 45 As examples, we all go out and get 46 clams and cockles and gumboots and every seaweed and 47 every other thing, but at some point that's going to 48 become commercialized and it's going to affect all of 49 us. I wasn't trying to be specific to Sitka. I was



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1 using that as an example of how the State came in and 2 took a subsistence resource and commercialized it and 3 then they decided to put a limit on the subsistence 4 users that never had a limit before. 5 6 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Right. 7 8 MR. HOWARD: And then I could see that 9 happening to all the resources that we rely on in all

10 our communities that don't have a limit right now, but 11 if it becomes commercialized it will. And we are going 12 to be the ones that are left with one percent of the 13 resource when originally we were the only ones using 14 it. 15 16 So this was never intended to talk 17 about or address shrimp. It's actually intended to 18 address future decisions and creations of future 19 fisheries or commercialized anyway. And that was the 20 intention I was trying to get across. 21 22 So thank you, Mr. Chair. 23 24 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. I 25 understand that now, Albert. And no, you're absolutely 26 right. I think yeah, that is happening in a number of 27 areas and it does need to be addressed. 28 29 But yeah, let's change the focus there 30 and..... 31 32 MR. SUMINSKI: Mr. Chairman. 33 34 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Go ahead. 35 Who is this? 36 37 MR. SUMINSKI: This is Terry Suminski. 38 39 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Hi, Terry. 40 41 MR. SUMINSKI: Just to follow up a 42 little bit on the shrimp issue in Sitka. I have sent 43 an email to Mr. Feldpausch of Sitka Tribe. I'm not 44 sure what his work status is right now, but I get a 45 response to him as to STA's plan for a shrimp proposal, 46 I can report back on that. 47 48 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Yeah. That 49 will be helpful, Terry. And yeah, as Albert points



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1 out, there is a bigger issue at stake. 2 3 MR. SUMINSKI: Yes. 4 5 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: So let's -- yeah. 6 7 MR. SUMINSKI: Okay. Thank you. 8 9 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: And we'll try and

10 address that, Albert. That's a little bit more of a 11 complicated one. That might take the expertise of -- I 12 think we probably will want to hear from the Department 13 of Fish and Game Subsistence Division on that whole 14 issue. We already have a request for Lauren Sill to 15 maybe inform us a little bit, so let's wait and see 16 what's on the..... 17 18 MS. KENNER: Mr. Chair, this is Pippa 19 Kenner. 20 21 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Go ahead, 22 Pippa. 23 24 MS. KENNER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes. 25 Lauren Sill is with us now on the teleconference. 26 27 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. 28 29 MS. KENNER: We've been listening and I 30 just wanted to maybe describe your questioning. You're 31 referring to sometimes what we call the patchwork 32 customary and traditional use determinations that exist 33 in Southeast Alaska. So for instance, very specific 34 areas might have a C&T and therefore a recognized 35 subsistence priority for shrimp or crab or, you know, 36 anything else while other areas don't. I think that's 37 what the member was speaking to. And that is true. 38 And we can see the C&Ts and we can see how it is a 39 patchwork. Some areas do -- or the State does 40 recognize the subsistence priority in some areas for 41 specific species and not in others. So I think that is 42 what the member was referring to. 43 44 Am I correct? 45 46 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Albert, do you 47 want to..... 48 49 MS. KENNER: And from what I've seen is



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1 that if these species are commercialized, if there 2 becomes a commercial fishery or use of these resources 3 there are some areas in Southeast Alaska for which 4 there is no protection for subsistence because it's not 5 recognized as a subsistence fishery. 6 7 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: That's probably 8 true. 9

10 MS. KENNER: I believe that's what you 11 had been talking about, am I right, or kind of right? 12 13 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: I think so. I 14 would..... 15 16 MS. KENNER: When then all of a sudden 17 we have limits on local uses because of maybe 18 commercial exploitation. 19 20 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Right. On a 21 species that wasn't commercial, it was being used by 22 subsistence users. Probably might not have had a lot 23 of initiatives as a fishery. Maybe never had a 24 customary and traditional use designation determined, 25 but people were using it. And then it becomes a 26 commercial fishery and then limits are places on 27 subsistence and personal users as well. So it's a bit 28 of a -- yeah, a complicated issue. 29 30 So if Lauren can be available to work 31 with our working group on this, discuss it a little 32 further, that would be helpful. We're trying to 33 establish our working groups right now. 34 35 Could she do that if you're in contact 36 with her? 37 38 MS. SILL: Yes, Mr. Chair. This is 39 Lauren Sill. I am on the call now and I am available 40 to sort of sit in a working group. 41 42 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Thank you, 43 Lauren. 44 45 Okay. So if we work on that issue we 46 need some Council people to work with Lauren. 47 48 Albert, it sounds like that's a big 49 issue with you. Do you want to work on that?



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1 MR. HOWARD: Mr. Chairman, the Council. 2 When they were setting up the customary and traditional 3 use determination, I objected to it on record that it 4 didn't represent Angoon and it still doesn't. The 5 Tribal Council here agrees that it doesn't represent 6 Angoon and our use of the resource. We use everything 7 and we use what we need. We get what we need. 8 9 So now I finally see the exact reason I

10 objected to the customary and traditional use 11 determination was it's for the Department to use it 12 against us. And now they have. And they've stated it 13 by saying that certain areas have customary and 14 traditional use uses of certain resources and others 15 don't. And that's what we were afraid of, was that 16 that was going to be the result of us saying that well, 17 we only use these, these, and these. And then the 18 State comes in and says well, you guys stated you don't 19 use these, when in fact we use everything. 20 21 Spend a low tide here in Angoon and 22 you'll see. You'll be amazed at what comes to the 23 dock. It's a little bit and a lot of everything. 24 25 While the State's on the phone, I think 26 something they should consider when the Governor and 27 the President declare a state of emergency, that the 28 resource should become more available to residents to 29 support ourselves and sustain ourselves. That way we 30 don't have to sit and watch TV and hope the President 31 decides he's going to give us all $1,000 a piece when 32 we can just go out here and get what we need without 33 prosecution. So there's a lot I could say on the topic 34 and all we want is what's available to us. 35 36 I stated earlier the only reason we 37 would take welfare is so our kids won't starve or so we 38 don't get put in jail for getting what we need from the 39 available resource that the State says belongs to 40 everyone equally, but divvies up 99 percent and the 41 users get one percent. 42 43 So I could talk all day about this, Mr. 44 Chair, but we're limited. 45 46 Thank you. 47 48 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: No. It's a big 49 issue for sure, Albert. And I don't know if it can be



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1 addressed with a proposal to the Board of Fish. I 2 think it needs to be hashed out. If you could take 3 some time to get together with Lauren Sill, and I think 4 I would volunteer to be on that working group also. 5 Maybe we could discuss it further here as a working 6 group. 7 8 Is there anybody else that might want 9 to be in on that effort.

10 11 (No comments) 12 13 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: I'm not hearing 14 any, but yeah. 15 16 MS. KENNER: Mr. Chair. 17 18 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Albert and I will 19 -- go ahead. 20 21 MS. KENNER: Oh. This is Pippa Kenner. 22 I'm sorry. I know you were probably looking for 23 Council members, but I would like to also participate. 24 25 Thank you. 26 27 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: No. That's fine. 28 Thank you, Pippa. We'll appreciate your help as well. 29 30 MS. PERRY: Mr. Chair. 31 32 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yes. Go ahead. 33 34 MS. PERRY: Yes. This is DeAnna. 35 36 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Hi, DeAnna. 37 38 MS. PERRY: So I just wanted to capture 39 that on this particular working group we have Mike 40 Douville, Albert Howard, Don Hernandez, with Staff 41 Pippa Kenner, DeAnna Perry, and also Lauren Sill from 42 the State. 43 44 Did I miss anyone. Because I want to 45 make sure that I send this email to the right folks 46 with the telephone number. 47 48 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Well, I'll ask 49 Mike. He had a good -- this discussion started out on



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1 shrimp and now it's kind of gotten a little broader. 2 3 Mike had a suggestion about contacting 4 Sitka Tribe to see if they were addressing shrimp 5 specifically and Terry was going to try and make that 6 connection. So I'll ask Mike if he still wants to be 7 involved with this one or work on something else. 8 9 Mike, you still there?

10 11 MR. DOUVILLE: Yeah, Mr. Chairman. 12 Mike Douville. It did start off on shrimp and then it 13 turned into something that I really don't have a grasp 14 of. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish or 15 what the charge may be. I don't know. Maybe I missed 16 something. But it has to do with commercial fishing 17 and subsistence or personal use. It's not clear to me 18 what you're trying to accomplish. 19 20 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: No. That's fine. 21 I was kind of realizing that, Mike. That yeah, we've 22 moved on from that. So okay. 23 24 MS. KENNER: Mr. Chair. This is -- oh. 25 26 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Go ahead, Pippa. 27 28 MS. KENNER: No. Are you moving on? 29 30 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: No. Go ahead if 31 you had something to add on this topic. 32 33 MS. KENNER: Oh, okay. Well, I 34 certainly -- I understand the confusion because these 35 are complicated processes. I just wanted to point out 36 that the Southeast Alaska Regional Advisory Council has 37 been active with Federal C&Ts. So they have over the 38 last four or five years put in numerous proposals in 39 the Federal program to broaden the customary and 40 traditional use determinations and to make sure that 41 all areas of Southeast Alaska are being covered by 42 those C&Ts. 43 44 By acknowledging subsistence uses 45 through the customary and traditional use determination 46 process is the first step in using regulations to 47 provide the subsistence priority. So what I heard the 48 speaker saying was that as resources are being 49 commercially exploited they are becoming actively



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1 managed, whereas in the past maybe they weren't 2 actively managed. So they become commercially 3 exploited, they may find themselves with harvest limits 4 and other restrictions on their harvest that weren't in 5 place before. So the first step in addressing that 6 through the subsistence law is to broaden those 7 customary and traditional use determinations so those 8 species in those areas are covered by the subsistence 9 priority and protections.

10 11 So I think it's a simple matter of 12 revising proposals that broaden those C&Ts. It could 13 be as simple as all fish in Southeast Alaska are 14 recognized as being customarily and traditionally used 15 and won't fall into the protections of the State 16 subsistence law. 17 18 Thank you. 19 20 Oh. Another thing I'd want to point 21 out is that through the Federal Program we don't have a 22 lot of jurisdiction in marine waters, whereas the State 23 does have the ability. The State Board of Fish does 24 have the ability to extend the State subsistence law 25 into marine waters and to marine species. 26 27 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 28 29 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Thank you, 30 Pippa. Yeah. Those are all things that I would like 31 to be able to sit down and discuss with State 32 subsistence, so we will do that in a work group setting 33 and then come back to the Council with what we find 34 out. 35 36 So Albert and I will do that with 37 Lauren Sill. 38 39 Now I've kind of lost track here. I 40 think we had..... 41 42 MS. KENNER: I think we were trying to 43 convince -- this is Pippa Kenner. I think I was trying 44 to convince Mike Douville to be on our working group. 45 46 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Oh, okay. 47 48 Mike? 49



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1 MR. DOUVILLE: Mr. Chair, this is Mike 2 Douville. I don't mind sitting in, but I'm not sure 3 that I can offer anything at this point because I'm 4 still unclear what you're trying to do. Because the 5 State does not have a subsistence priority like Title 6 VIII of ANILCA, so it's a whole different thing. But 7 I'm willing to get an education, if nothing else. 8 9 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Fair

10 enough. 11 12 So we still have proposals like on king 13 salmon and so far I've only got Frank listed for that 14 one. Somebody else want to contribute to discussion on 15 a king salmon subsistence proposal. 16 17 And Larry, you up there in Yakutat, it 18 seems like this was an issue in your area. Do you want 19 to be involved in that one? 20 21 MR. BEMIS: Well, either that or the 22 gillnet one. Either one. They -- we both have an 23 issue with them. 24 25 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. 26 27 MR. BEMIS: Either or. Either king 28 salmon or I could do the gillnet. 29 30 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. I'll list 31 you for both. 32 33 MR. BEMIS: Wherever I'm needed. 34 35 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. I'll list 36 you for both and see where you're needed most. 37 38 Okay. How about you, John. Is there 39 one of these proposals you want to work on other than 40 the non-guided sport? 41 42 MR. YEAGER: Mr. Chair, I'll work with 43 the gillnet one because it may have a little relevance 44 on the Stikine. 45 46 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. 47 48 MR. YEAGER: To where I might be able 49 to bring a little bit of knowledge from our gillnet



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1 fishery on the Stikine to that. So I would work on 2 that one, if that pleases the Chair. 3 4 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Sounds good. 5 6 Harold, how about you. You got a 7 preference? 8 9 MR. ROBBINS: Mr. Chair, I would really

10 prefer to let the local Advisory Council take the lead 11 and then support their proposals. 12 13 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: All right. If we 14 know that the local Advisory Committee is working on 15 something and wants our help, we could do that. And we 16 just don't know at this time what's being put in the 17 works by other folks, so I don't know if you have any 18 information on that, what they're working on, your 19 local committee. 20 21 MR. ROBBINS: Well, I am aware that the 22 local committee is looking at some changes with the 23 subsistence for the early kings here in Yakutat Bay, so 24 yeah. 25 26 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Right. 27 Yeah. I wouldn't want to cross purposes with them. I 28 think maybe it's worthwhile kind of hashing out what 29 the Council might feel about it. Because it does 30 affect other areas as well. 31 32 I know the topic was brought up by 33 Albert and how it affects the folks in Angoon, so we'll 34 keep that as a committee. 35 36 How about, Cathy. Have you volunteered 37 to help with anything yet? 38 39 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 40 This is Cathy. No. Because I'm at the bottom of the 41 list, so I haven't gone through for anything yet. 42 43 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: I know. 44 45 MS. NEEDHAM: I was thinking about the 46 way things are divided up and maybe I would do the 47 gillnet one so that the Chair was in one and the Vice- 48 Chair was in the other work group. I don't have 49 particular knowledge in any one area or the other, so



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1 that was my rationale. 2 3 So if you want to do it that way or if 4 you have a better suggestion, I'm open. 5 6 Thank you. 7 8 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Uh-huh. You might 9 be able to add something to, you know, discussion on

10 subsistence king salmon with Frank. And maybe Larry 11 would be better to work on the gillnet. 12 13 MS. NEEDHAM: Mr. Chair, this is Cathy. 14 15 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: How's that. 16 17 MS. NEEDHAM: My understanding is that 18 we only have two phone lines for sub-work group 19 meeting. 20 21 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Oh. 22 23 MS. NEEDHAM: And so we have one group 24 that's doing the shrimp proposal and then one group 25 that's kind of working on the king and gillnet 26 together. They're producing two potential proposals. 27 28 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. No. You're 29 right, Cathy. We do only have the two phone lines, so 30 we have to combine. 31 32 MS. PERRY: Mr. Chair. 33 34 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: So tell me again. 35 Which ones do you think could be worked on together? 36 37 MS. NEEDHAM: Mr. Chair, this is Cathy. 38 I was thinking the king salmon and gillnet proposals 39 could be lumped into the same work group and then -- 40 because it seems like the shrimp one is pretty complex 41 and you have, you know, yeah. I don't know. That was 42 just my suggestion, but..... 43 44 MS. PERRY: Mr. Chair. 45 46 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: No. I think 47 that's a good suggestion. I forgot about the two phone 48 lines. 49



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1 So did somebody else weigh in. 2 3 MS. PERRY: Mr. Chair. 4 5 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. Is this 6 DeAnna? 7 8 MS. PERRY: Yeah, Mr. Chair. This is 9 DeAnna. I just wanted to offer it looks like I can

10 secure another line. It's so late in the day, I think 11 I can secure another line. So if we think it would be 12 better to just have three separate lines for the work 13 group in each, I can make that happen. 14 15 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: No. Let's put a 16 bigger group together working on the combined king 17 salmon and gillnet. It sounds like there's some 18 overlap there, so let's put a bigger group together on 19 those two. And we'll separate out this issue with 20 traditional fisheries on its own. 21 22 So I'm seeing for one work group we've 23 got Frank, Larry, John, Cathy, and I'll ask maybe if 24 Harold could work on that as well to discuss both the 25 gillnet and king salmon and see what kind of overlaps 26 they have there. 27 28 And then Mike, Albert, and myself will 29 work on this traditional fisheries issue. And Albert 30 and Mike and I will work with Lauren Sill and Pippa. 31 32 And for king salmon and gillnet, I 33 guess we haven't asked for Staff support there yet. If 34 there's any recommendations, I don't know if Susan up 35 in Yakutat is following those issues. I know it's kind 36 of more of a State issue, but..... 37 38 MS. PERRY: Mr. Chair, this is DeAnna. 39 I believe Justin mentioned that he would be available 40 for a working group. 41 42 Justin, are you still free for that? 43 44 MR. KOLLER: Yeah, DeAnna. This is 45 Justin. I'm free for whichever group you want to have 46 me on. And I know Terry is going to help out as well, 47 so..... 48 49 MS. PERRY: Okay. And Jake



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1 Musselwhite. 2 3 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. I 4 think..... 5 6 MS. PERRY: I'm not sure if he would be 7 available also. 8 9 MR. KOLLER: I am not certain about

10 that. I don't know if he's on the line or not. 11 12 MS. PERRY: Okay. 13 14 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Well, let's just 15 stick with Justin and Terry helping out on the second 16 committee. 17 18 MS. PERRY: Mr. Chair, this is DeAnna. 19 You had mentioned Terry in the first group because of 20 Sitka Tribe. Now that that's not a shrimp issue 21 specifically, are we moving Terry over to the 22 gillnetting and king salmon group? 23 24 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yes. Let's do 25 that. Although we're still asking Terry to get in 26 touch with Sitka Tribe if he can and let us know if 27 they're working on a shrimp-specific proposal. So 28 we'll still ask Terry to do that. 29 30 Okay. So I think we've got that 31 established. The only other question is, and this is 32 probably up to the two individual groups of what kind 33 of time frame they want to work under here. 34 35 MR. SUMINSKI: Mr. Chairman, this is 36 Terry. 37 38 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Go ahead, Terry. 39 40 MR. SUMINSKI: I'm sorry. I kind of 41 lost track of the different groups and what Staff you 42 need on them. Could you just run through the different 43 groups real quickly? 44 45 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Sure. I don't 46 know how you could have lost track, Terry. 47 48 (Laughter)



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1 MR. SUMINSKI: I was trying to take 2 notes and then I lost it. I'm sorry. 3 4 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. I know. So 5 we're going to still ask if you can possibly get in 6 touch with Sitka Tribe and see if they might be working 7 on a shrimp proposal specific to that because we're 8 kind of going to address that in a bigger fashion as a, 9 you know, subsistence priority issue. So if you could

10 still do that. 11 12 But other than that we have essentially 13 two other proposals that we're going to ask you and 14 Justin to work on. And those deal with the take of 15 subsistence king salmon and, you know, how the closures 16 that have been implemented affect that and if there's 17 any proposals can come up to address that. And the 18 other one is dealing with more specific use of gillnets 19 and a proposal dealing with allowing people to anchor 20 their gillnets if they're attended. 21 22 MR. SUMINSKI: Right. 23 24 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: And some of that 25 might spill over into king salmon issues in the 26 subsistence king salmon fisheries. So there's an 27 overlap there, but you and Justin are going to help out 28 with that. 29 30 And then on the more customary and 31 traditional use and subsistence fisheries, that will be 32 Lauren Sill from ADF&G, Pippa, Mike, Albert, and 33 myself. So..... 34 35 MR. SUMINSKI: Okay. And the unguided 36 sport you'll work on tomorrow; is that the idea? 37 38 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Unguided sport. 39 If we have an opportunity before the end of the 40 meeting, we'll do that. But that may have to be done 41 as a work group after the meeting adjourns and come up 42 with something. 43 44 MR. SUMINSKI: Okay. Thanks so much 45 for your patience, Mr. Chairman. 46 47 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yep. No problem. 48 No problem.



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1 So when do these two groups want to get 2 together. Any suggestions. 3 4 MS. NEEDHAM: Mr. Chair, this is Cathy. 5 6 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Go ahead, Cathy. 7 8 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair. My 9 brain is fried. And I actually have another commitment 10 that I have to run off to for at least one hour at 5:00 11 o'clock, and so I'm unsure about just being able to go 12 from here directly into a work group meeting. That's 13 just me personally. 14 15 I'm sure that other people have similar 16 scheduled things, but I like the idea of -- I mean I 17 would be happy to look over some things and try to 18 craft up some -- a starting point for the work group 19 that I'm in tomorrow. And then we can meet at 8:00 20 a.m. on a teleconference line. And again I know we 21 have to start our meeting at 9:00, but that doesn't 22 mean that we can't recess at 9:30 if we still need time 23 or something along those lines. I think and work 24 better in the morning anyway. 25 26 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 27 28 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah. I agree 29 with that, Cathy. I have a hard time working, you 30 know, at nighttime, especially when we're home. I 31 think it's a little unreasonable. I like the idea of 32 getting the groups together at 8:00 o'clock tomorrow 33 morning. 34 35 I will open the meeting at 9:00 o'clock 36 tomorrow morning. I will ask if there is any public 37 testimony because that is, you know, something that we 38 announce to people ahead of time. If we don't have any 39 public testimony I may recess and reconvene the work 40 groups. So I think that's what I'll do. 41 42 So all we need to do now is just get 43 some phone numbers from DeAnna where we can all call in 44 tomorrow morning at 8:00 o'clock and we'll see how much 45 we can get done in an hour. And we can always take 46 more time later. 47 48 MS. PERRY: Mr. Chair.



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1 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: So DeAnna, over to 2 you. Do you have a list of everybody that's on the two 3 different groups and could you possibly either give 4 them a phone number now or put it out in an email this 5 evening so they will be ready to go in the morning? 6 7 MS. PERRY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I do 8 prefer to send that out in an email. I'm also sending 9 out the Board of Fisheries template for those that will

10 be helping to fill that out. I need to open up both of 11 those lines at 7:45 in the morning, so I'll have those 12 open. I can only monitor one at a time, but I do need 13 to open them both up. And then I will try to have them 14 reserved for as much of tomorrow as possible in case 15 you do recess into those work groups, depending on 16 their available. 17 18 So look for an email quickly, here 19 shortly and I will send those phone lines out to 20 everyone with the passcode. 21 22 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: That sounds great. 23 I think, yep, that's the way to go. Yep. 24 25 Thank you, DeAnna. 26 27 I'll recess the meeting for the 28 evening. And the official meeting will get started at 29 9:00 a.m. tomorrow morning. 30 31 So thank you all who have been 32 listening in and paying attention. Appreciate it. And 33 we'll see you all in the morning. 34 35 (Off record) 36 37 (PROCEEDINGS TO BE CONTINUED) 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48



1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ) 4 )ss. 5 STATE OF ALASKA ) 6 7 I, Salena A. Hile, Notary Public in and for the 8 state of Alaska and reporter for Computer Matrix Court 9 Reporters, LLC, do hereby certify:

10 11 THAT the foregoing pages numbered through 12 contain a full, true and correct Transcript of the 13 SOUTHEAST FEDERAL SUBSISTENCE REGIONAL ADVISORY COUNCIL 14 MEETING, VOLUME II taken electronically on the 25th day 15 of March; 16 17 THAT the transcript is a true and 18 correct transcript requested to be transcribed and 19 thereafter transcribed by under my direction and 20 reduced to print to the best of our knowledge and 21 ability; 22 23 THAT I am not an employee, attorney, or 24 party interested in any way in this action. 25 26 DATED at Anchorage, Alaska, this 24th 27 day of April 2020. 28 29 30 31 Salena A. Hile 32 Notary Public, State of Alaska 33 My Commission Expires: 09/16/22 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50

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