14543 MRS . JOSEPH

specifically condemned the violence of the Trench Revo-

lution, but nevertheless we have hailed the principles

that emerged from the French Revolution. The whole world

has, my lords. ^s^

Yes. Well , it is for that reason that I fm —'

really asking you the questions. Did the view, the point

of view as regards non-violence, was that not a point of

view which depended on the circumstances?— Not in my

understanding of i t , my lord; I would make one point

and that i s , my lords, in the Congress of Democrats

generally speaking we were only concerned with the situa-

tion in South Africa. We did not, I think ever have a

Foreign policy as such; in fact we made it clear from

the beginning that we were not aiming to be a Parliamen-

tary Party for which it would be necessary to put forward

specific policy, economic policy, or foreign policy.

We had a limited purpose, which was to assist in what we

saw the liberation of South Africa, and the granting of

the universal franchise. That is why I am finding it

difficult , ray lords, to think in terms of a specific

policy on these matters of the Congress of Democrats.

Prom time to time at our Conferences where an issue was

very much in the minds of people, a resolution would be

passed on a specific issue, but really, my lords, we did

not have a broad policy on these mattera.

Again, on the question of shall I say a rela-

tive^ violence, did the Congress of Democrats support the

principle of the African National Congress that in order

to achieve its aims it may be necessary to engage in a

unionwide struggle?— In a unionwide peaceful struggle,

yes, my lordc

14543 MRS . JOSEPH

A Unionwide 'Stay at Home'?— Stay at home, yes.

I didn't say strife , I said strike - -?—

I 'm sorry, I thought you said struggle. ;

A Unionwide strike?— Yes, my lord.

Did it support that?— Yes, my lord, it did.

Did i t , the Congress, also accept the view that

the Government which it called a Fascist Government, would

not relax and instead of granting rights would become more

and more hard?— Yes, my lords, we accepted that; it was a

realistic view of the situation. We knew that.

Did the Congress realise that in the case of an

ultimate strike which would be an indication of the failure

of any negotiations prior to that, that there might be \

violence used by the State, to break up the strike?

My lord, I 'm having a little difficulty with the use of

the word 'strike' as against a 'stay at home', where peo-

ple remain peacefully in their homes, on a very cast scale.

What do you understand the difference to be, be-

tween a strike and a stay at home?— A strike to me, my

lords, is something which relates more to specific industry

- a National stoppage of work to me is a wider term, when

people stay at home.

A strike, a bigger strike?— I t ' s again more an

expression of disapproval in which people stay at home.

I t ' s difficult - - if in fact a stay at home is carried

out in a highly disciplined manner, in which people re-

main in their homes, then i t ' s difficult to see how armed

interference could really ariseo I t ' s not a question

so much of picketing where there may be clashes - but

of people w ho s tay at home.

Well , assume there are arrests on a large scale,

14543 MRS . JOSEPH

even "by the Army - strike being an illegal act in the view

of the State - -?— Only illegal in certain cases for cer-

tain people. A stay at home in itself is not, my lord, il-

legal unless it affects the essential services. I t ' s not

an organised strike in a factory, which is illegal - - it ' s

different, my lords.

Well , as far as I understood the evidence so far

it was part of the policy of the African National Congress

that it would go as far as the universal, or a Nationwide

strike - a stay at home?— Yes.

In order to achieve i t , if necessary?— Yes.

Then, my lords, these were envisaged as being possible

even amongst our own members. We are in fact here to-day

my lords. . . .

And in that case, if there were ever a strike I.I HI I • — — — — ~ ~

oi that scale, and there were arrests on a large scale,

did the Congress of Democrats envisage the possibility

of violence occurring - - resistance of arrests?— No, my

lords, because that has not been in the policy of the

Congress as a whole. No, my lord. . .

I t ' s not what the policy was, but what the Con-

gress envisaged would happen?— That would be something

which we should try to-"prevent, my lord.

Was there a likelihood of it happening?— My lord

a likelihood really is in terms of how likely it is pes -

sible , or how near is the possibility of a Nationwide

stay at home.

Well, I 'm putting it on the basis that once

there is a Nationwide strike, it must have appeared to

the Congress Alliance that nothing else could do anything,

could achieve anything^ it would mean, it would pre-

1 4 5 4 3 MRS . JOSEPH

suppose a situation of the Government being as hard as a

rock?— Yes, my lord.

And the Congress Alliance being as determined

as anything?— Yes,

That situation must be pre-supposed before one

thinks of a nationwide strike?— Yes,

Now, in that atmosphere, having regard to the

fact that the Government of the day is as hard as a rock,

and the Congress Alliance is determined to carry on, what

would the Congress of Democrats - - or you, for that matt

what would you envisage might happen - -?— I envisage

that there mi^ht be, as you say, arrests, but I saw i t ,

and I think others too, that if that situation could be

brought about it would not be of very long duration. Our

people might have to suffer, during the time that the

pressure would be on the population as a whole. It would

not be of very long duration. Our people might have to

suffer during that time, but the pressure would be on the

population as a wholef because the country would not be

able to continue and therefore negotiations would be the

result. That is how we saw i t , my lords, that people

might have to suffer imprisonment; that is true, my

lord.

And blood flowing?-— Yes, we have made that , 1 — 1 "1 '

clear too, to our people, that even non-violent methods

might not be able to prevent violence being used against

us; we've said that repeatedly, my lords.

And if the strike is on a Nationwide scale,

would you exclude violence completely by the masses

against the authorities, if there were arrests?—

14525 MRS. JOSEPH

That would be the instruction, my lord.

But what do you envisage?— To resist provocation. 1 — \——

What do you envisage i'n that - if I may call it -

final plan?— My lord, I envisage it this way, that we

would not embark upon something of this nature which would

be of such a vast character unless we had good reason to

believe that our people would be disciplined. We would

not go into it rashly, my lord,.

That must be the hope?— Yes, it would be.

But the expectation, what would be the expectation

? — My lord, the expectation would have to depend upon

the circumstance s at the time; I don't think I could really

answer that.

Assume that the position would be that the Con-

gress Alliance had reached that stage where it was deter-

mined to carry on with a Nationwide strike, knowing that

the Government was adamant, realising also that the clash

would be short because of the . . . . . . organisation of the

Congress Alliance; and i f I may put it also, realising

that although there may be some blood it would be small

compared to a Nationwide clash, and it would be of very

short duration before victory would be achieved. Would

i

that be in line with the Congress of T^onr-atq policy? —

My lords, I don't think that at any time one can exclude

a possibility - because we have said that over and over

again - but I don't think that we would be justified in

going forward with such a plan, saying to ourselves, "Yes,

we know that there will be some casualties, but we don't

regard that as important in view of the end to be a chieved.

That, my lord, would to me be a violation of our policy.

It would be.

14543 MRS . JOSEPH

(Witness contd): Because we must always go forward with

the conscious determination to a void bloodshed; but

we have never been able to give that guarantee. But

it is fundamental to our policy, my lord, that we don't

engage in activities which we are convinced are going to

lead to bloodshed, even i f it is small. I ' l l put it that

way, my lordo

I 'm asking these questions to see how your evi-

dence about the fundamentals of your policy can be recon-

ciled to the hard "facts of l i f e ? — My lords, the funda-

mentals of our policy were reconciled to the hard facts

of life in India. It took a long time. They can be

reconciled; I believe i t , my lord.

Except that there may be this difference in I . ,

India - between India and this country- - that the very t

idea of non-violence as propagated by Ghandi is an ideas'

which, according to the evidence as such, has not been

propagated to the same extent anc! jn the same particular

manner?— It started here, my lordo

Yes; I-m now talking about the evidence before

us. Do you follow what I mean?— Yes, I do, but I mean

G-handi's first experiment was in South Africa,

And secondly, the t ype of stake that Ghandi

wanted may not be quite the same tyoe of stake that the

Congress Alliance want?— My lords, I can't claim, of

course, to be an exDert on India or on Ghandi or others,

who are much better qualified than I , but I have always

understood that Ghandi's aim was to seek liberation for

his people to decide for themselves what kind of stake

they want, and that, my lord, is in effect the aim of

the Congress Movement here; so that I see a great simi-

14527 MRS. JOSEPH

larity, but my lords, I must say I don't claim to be so

well informed about Ghandiism*

Yes, Yes, Mr. Liebenberg.

MR. LIEBENBERG % Is not the evidence before

the Court, Mrs, Joseph, that Ghandi's method had only to

serve as a lever to induce the masses to other fights of

mass action?— That passive resistance was only to be a

lever - -

A lever for mass action of other types?— I

have never seen it so, I would like to have something more

specific on that i f possible, my lord.

The Exhibit number is B„25, my lords5 at the

bottom of this - - it appears at pa°-e 1175 of the record -

it reads as follows:— "Passive resistance can be a power-

ful weapon for awakening peoples' consciousness, and arousing

their support. It prepares them for future struggle by

teaching them that readiness to sacrifice is always the

price of victory in a struggle. It oan thus be a lever

moving the whole struggle forward to mass action of other

types," Then further down? "The history of passive re-

sistance, especially of Ghandi's passive resistance move-

ment in India., proves that it is only an effective weapon

when it is used to build up the movement and prepare the

people for other forms of mass action and mass struggle."

Do you agree with this statement on the form of passive

resistance?— No, my lords, that doesn't really fall into

my view of passive resistance, but I , of course, do not

know who made that statement; it staes 'csn be' - I don't

think it is meant to be a categorical statement.

Well; in this document, Mrs.Joseph, I suggest

that it means only one thing, namely that passive resist-

14528 MRS. JOSEPH

ance is but a step to other forms of mass action?— My

lords, it can be a step to other forms, or it can achieve

an end in itself,.

You were dealing with - - at least his lordship

asked you about the struggles in Colonial countries. I

want to refresh your memory about what you said in your

evidence in chiefs You said that armed conflict in Colo-

nial countries was due not solely to the efforts of the

people to obtain rights, but also to the refusal of the

authorities to recognise the rights of the people?— Yes.

Was that your organisation's understanding of

the use of 'armed conflict' in the colonial countries?

Due not solely to the efforts of the oppressed people but

also to the authorities' refusal . . .

The failure on the part of the authorities to

recognise their rights?— My lords, I think that would ex-

press our opinion; as I say, I don't recall it ever being

formulated, but I think it would be in line with our

opinion, that armed conflict is not - - yes, it would, it

is not only due to the people coming forward - - it comes

from both sides, I think so„ I cannot see any real

difficulty in that.

Yes. but what I want to put to you is that

this evidence of ours shows an approval by implication

of the use of armed conflict in the Colonial countries.

? — It was not intended so5 my lords. I may have ex-

pressed myself not very clearly, but I don't know the

context from which you have taken this phrase - - but

it certainly wasn't my intention to express approval

of armed conflict . . . I would, however, like to know

more the context in which I made this statement. I don't

1

145?9 MRS. JOSEPH

recall it now.

May I put to you a hypothetical question? I f

two or three countries, Colonial countries in the world

were struggling for a Socialist State, and they were to

read of the success of the resolution in the Soviet Union

- would they not feel inclined to apply that method to

their struggle? They are working towards the same objec-

tive as Russia?—

KENNEDY Js Can the witness answer that?

MR. LIEBENBERG; My lord, I 'm putting a hypothetical

question. These countries are all working towards the

establishment of Socialism; they have the example of a

country like Russia where Socialism was achieved by the

means of revolution?— I really cannot say, my lords,

whether they would or not, even hypothetically I cannot

say.

You see, I want to put to you more directly that

in South Africa the success of the revolution in Russia

was praised?— It may have been,, I would like to have

some knowledge of where and how it was praised; it may

well have been, I don't knowr

Wasn ;t that the object of all those annual

meetings on the 7th November - arranged by the South

African Society for Peace and Friendship with the Soviet

Union?— Possibly for these people who attended them.

And the people who attended and who addressed

them were members of the South African Congress of Demo-

crats like Bernstein, Barsel and others?— That may well

be , my lords; I have already said that in the Congress

of Democrats people held different points of view; it

may be so.

20

25

30

14530

MRS. JOSEPH

Mra. Joseph, I was dealing with this document

0 . 292 , and I would like you to express yourself in the way

that you understand the policy of the South African Congress

of Democrats. Now, is it the view of the South African

Congress of Democrats that Fascism has been established in

South Africa?— My lords, I think, yes, we certainly hold

the view that South Africa . . .

Is a Fascist State?— Yes, that has been express-

ed. I t ' s in a broad sense, my lords, but that is a point

of view held by our organisation that South ATPrica has become

a Fascist State. I don't say completely, but that is the

trend in South Africa.

The effect of this that the Government assumes

dictatorial powers to oppress the working class?— To

oppress not only the working class . .

And to rule the country?— To rule the country

yes.

And is it further the view of your organisation

that there b very little prospect of getting any change

in the situation in or through Parliament? Because of this

?— I t ' s true to this extent, that we felt that experience

had shewn that there was very little chance of getting

any change in or through Parliament until we could strengthen

and reinforce Parliament, or the white electorate rather

through our extra-parliamentary pressure. That is correct.

We did not exclude the possibility but we felt that with-

out the extra parliamentary pressure on the white elec-

torate there would be very little chance. I think I 've

said that also at the very beginning of my evidence-in-

chief.

JT^, 14531

MRS. JOSEPH

Is it also your organisation's view that the

anti-Pascist Movement now has its heart outside of Par-

liament, in the mass movement of the peoples of all colours

?— Now has its heart?

Yes?— Yes, my lords.

That appear^ from Exhibit C .41 , my lords?—

I don't know if this is the view as expressed by my orga-

nisation, but I would agree with the principle of i t .

Now, wel l , I'm not interested in whether it

was expressed by your organisation, or not. Is that the

view of your organisation?— That the anti-Pascist move-

ment has its heart . . » yes, I said so.

That is your organisation's view. And that

Fascism can only be defeated by the defeat of the Nationa-

list Government?— Yes, my lords, we hold that view, but

I think we have qualified it also by saying that the mere

replacement of the Nationalist Government by the present

Parliamentary Opposition would not necessarily bring about

the changes which we desire; I think we have qualified

that, perhaps nob in that particular document, but as a

general expression

In this document it is stated that the

Nationalist Government can only be defeated by extra-

parliamentary action, involving the masses of the people

? — My lords, I don't recall that as an actual expression;

that limits i t , that expression of our policy. I don't

know i f that is a policy document; I seem to recognise

it as a document which was presented by an individual

for discussion at a conference.

But it is the same, I suggest, as this

previous one that I put to you, 0.41=

14532 MRS. JOSEPH

RUMPFF Js But the witness says she doesn't want

to limit the position to jhe elimination of the National-

ist Party. She further regarded it as essential that

that party should not he substituted by another Capitalist

Party.

MR. LIEBENBFRG-; And you do subscribe to the

view that ? or your organisation rather subscribes to the

view that the Fascism can only be defeated by some decisive

action of the masses of the people?— My lord it would

depend really in what sense decisive action were used.

Well , I'm asking you, Mrs. Joseph; what your

organisation had in mind?— My lords, I would like to

know more about the decisive action - - if it is just used

as a blanket phrase, then I can comment on it ; or if it

has a specific reference . then I can also comment on

i t .

You 3aid to the Court some time ago that this

circular, the Springbok Legion circular, C .292 , was in

line with your cganisation's policy. Now I'm putting to

you the section which deals with the decisive action to

defeat the Fascists. I?m asking you what action you had

in mind?-- Now I recall that the decisive action that was

considered in that circular, as far as I remember i t ,

- I don't have it in front of me - was the need for extra

parHsnentary action. Now I can put it into its reference.

And how would the masses have to - - or what

forms of extra parliamentary action would the masses have

to employ?— Those have already been specified, my lords,

as passive resistance, civil disobedience - - I don't think

they are expressed in that letter, but in the framework

of the Congress policy it has been expressed - - non-

14533 MRS. JOSEPH

collaboration, strikes, stay at homes, civil disobedience,

demonstrations.

Your problem, Mrs. Joseph, I suggest, was to

organise the non^white masses, politically?— My lords,

that was not the problem of the Congress of Democrats.,

The task of the Congress of Democrats was to specifically

work amongst the European electorate; that was the pur-

pose for which we were formed, and to assist the other

Congresses. Eut our primary task was to work amongst the

European electorate.

Did you work very closely with the other orga-

nisations?— Yes, I didp because that was included - that

we should assist the Congress organisation.

And the task of the whole Congress movement was

to organise the masses?— Organise the masses of all races,

my lords.

And to use a technical phrase, to raise their

political consciousness?— Of all rac^s, my lords.

And to get them to act in a disciplined manner

? — Yes.

By obeying the instructions of the leaders?—

Obeying instructions of the leaders, within the terms of

the Congress policy,,

And if they had embarked on some mass action,

which led to a countrywide upheaval, would you people

have been averse to i t ?— I'm not sure what is meant by

a countrywide upheaval. A stay at home on a national

scale - such as we discussed a few moments ago could lead

to a countrywide upheaval which would bring about the

negotiations, and we would not be averse to that.

14534 MRS. JOSEPH

And if their action had led to violent clashes

would you have been against that?— Yes.

Did you ever tell them that you were against i t ? —

My lords, tell who?

The people with whom you were dealing?— My lords,

we have consistently, from our platforms, put forward the

non-violent policy; I 'm not clear really as to what the

Prosecutor is getting at here.

l e t ' s deal with the struggle against passes?—Yes.

Was it your instruction to all the masses that they

should take such action as they might find necessary to

resist the pass laws?— I really cannot see how it could

ever have been my instruction to all the masses, my lords.

You wore a member of the Transvaal Action Commit-

tee of the C . O . P ? — That is so.

Did you issue a circular called "Death to the

Pass Laws" , C 1086 , my lords?— I don't recall i t ; i f

I saw it I might well remember i t .

BEKKER Js Has it been read in?

MR. LIEBEMEBRCtS Unfortunately this is used by

the Defence, my lords;

BEKKER J ; Was it put in under the present wit-

ness' evidence?

MR. LIEBEHBERG; I ' l l get the reference, my lords ,

I ' l l give it to your lordships. 2182 , my lords , is the

page reference. May i get the Exhibit , my lords , I have

not got it before me. C 6 1 0 8 6 . I ' l l read to you what

I have here, Mrs. Joseph, "The Struggle against Pass

Laws must take every form possible. There must be meet-

ings , demonstrations, petitions, resistance and other forms

of struggle which the people are sure to evolve themselves.

14543 MRS . JOSEPH

Exactly which form of s truggle must be employed will

vary from area to area. The choice of the form of

struggle must be left to the leaders in each area."

That's a circular which was issued by the Transvaal

Consultative Committee on the 1st March, 1956. You

were a member of that body?— Yes, my lords.

And here you advocated the use of other forms

of s truggle which the people are sure to evolve them-

selves?— Yes, my lords, I have already discussed this

very phrase in my evidence-in-chief., in which I think

I pointed out that this was an internal bulletin circu-

lated amongst the Congresses who were constituent bodies

of the Transvaal Consultative Committee.

You left the choice of the form ofstruggle to

the leaders?-- Yes, I'm coming to that, my lords. And

that in the context of that it would mean that there would

be other struggles which the people would be sure to

evolve themselves - and these would be, as far as the

Congresses are concerned could only be those which we

would countenance if they fell within the framework of

our non-violent methods. I did deal with this paragraph

already, my lords.

You must have foreseen the possibility of

outbreaks of violence 9 — Not at a l l , my lords.

I suggest further that i f you wanted to state

your policy of non-violence this would have been the

lecture in which to do it?—- Pirst of a l l , mylords, it

was not any lecture, it was a circular that was sent

round - a bulletin that went to the constituent organisa-

tions, and within our organisations, my lords, we know

our own policy. We know our own methods. It surely is

14537 MRS. JOSEPH

not essential that we must continue to emphasise non-

violence. Our whole internal - - our policy is one of

non-violence. Our people understand it . It would be com-

pletely irrelevant in a bulletin to say the forms must

be non-violent. We know these things, my lords. This was

not for the public, this was a bulletin for the organisa-

tion.

You left the choise of the form of struggle to the

leaders of the areas concerned?— Well, my lords, that would

be the Congress leaders, , who would then choose the form

ofstruggle within the context of the Congress policy.

How, I put it to you again, Mrs. Joseph, that

if in any given area violent clashes have arisen which

enabled them to succeed in their struggles, would you have

condemned i t ? — My lords, we would have condemned the

violence. We would have disassociated ourselves from i t .

Your real object, Mrs. Joseph,was to achieve

the results?— My lordsr that is not so.

(COURT ADJOURNED UNTIL 2 .15 P .M . )

14538 MRS. JOSEPH

ON THE COURT RESUMING AT 2.15 P.M:

XXP BY MR. LIEBENBERG (Contd) : .

Do you agree with the view that the South African

Congress of Democrats was an organisation of all the Euro-

peans who believe in and are committed to struggle for the

principles of the African National Congress?— My lords, I

would agree that the Congress of Democrats members do stand

by the principles of the African National Congress in their

struggle for liberation; I could not say that it includes

all the Europeans who are so committed, but I would say

that all members of the Congress of Democrats.

Well , that's what I 'm putting to you, that the

Congress of Democrats as an organisation was composed of

Europeans who believed in a struggle for the principles of

the African National Congress?— My lords, yes, insofar as

those principles are concerned with the struggle for libe-

ration.

And do you also agree that it had no set of

principles of its own?— No.

Separate and distinct from those of the Con-

gresses? That it complemented and did not compete with

them?— I don't think that our principles would in any

way compete with those of the African National Congresses

or the other Congresses -

Yes; they rather - - your principles were

really those of the other Congresses working towards the

same objective?— Yes, my lords.

And they adopted the same forms of struggle

and so on?— Yes, my lords.

The object of your organisation was merely to

recruit among the Europeans some members who would work

14539 MRS. JOSEPH

together in this big movement, the Congress Movement?—

Yes, my lords, I think that is stated quite clearly; our

aim was to get people who would assist in the Congress

Alliance and would share our aim of the universal fran-

chise, and equality and justice.

You see, when you dealt with this document

C.281 on page 1729 to 1737, my lords, that is the draft

of the immediate programme of action by J . Hodgson -

you tried to exclude this document from the policy of the

South African Congress of Democrats?— My lords, I don't

recall that I tried'to exclude it from the policy; I

merely pointed out that it was not a policy document, it

was a paper presented by an individual for discussion at

the Conference and that it was not in fact adopted at the

Conference.

Well , in this paper Hodgson also advocated

the establishment of a Peoples Democratic Government in

South Africa? That is in accordance with your policy?—

We certainly advocated the establishment of a Peoples

Democratic Government,

And is it correct that Hodgson was regarded as

•

a very promiment individual as far as his role for bringing

about the establishment of the S .A . Congress of Democrats

was concerned? He played a prominent part in bringing

into existence the South African Congress of Democrats?—

I don't recall that it was prominent other than that he

was a member of the Springbok Legion, and I think he was

also a member of the Transvaal Congress of Democrats. I

don't recall the actual prominence of Mr. Hodgson as an

individual.

Your paper "Counter Attack" described him as

14543 MRS . JOSEPH

a person who took a very prominent part in the formation of

the South African Congress of Democrats?— Well, I wouldn't

dispute it ; I just said I don't recall it so specifically,

but i f it has been stated in our organ then obviously I

would not dispute i t ,

Yes, And he deals with the short term objec-

tive and the long term objective of this proposed body,

that is the Congress of Democrats?— Yes,

And he says that the immediate objective would

bebe - that is the resistance against the attacks of Fascism-

would be a defensive struggle to harrass, hamper and to

retard the programme of the Nationalists; to prevent the

further weakening of the progressive forces, to rally and

to organise more and ever more people for the task of de-

feating Fascism. Is that not in accordance with the policy

of the South African Congress of Democrats?— Generally

speaking, yes, my lords.

That is also the policy of the African National

Congress?-- Again, generally speaking, yes, my lords.

I'm no expert on their policy,, I am no authority on i t . . .

And the long term objective as he envisaged it

was to mobilise and prepare the people for decisive action

to bring about the defeat of Fascism?— That is contained

in that document, my lords,

BEKKER J : Mrs. Joseph, you made a remark

that you are not an authority on the policy of the African

National Congress; is that correct?— Well, my lords, I

wouldn't put myself up as an authority on their policy.

I said generally speaking - that is what I understand their

policy to be. I 'm not so familiar with their whole Con-

stitution, but generally that is how I understand i t .

14543 MRS . JOSEPH

MR. LIEBENBERG; Yes, but you have already agreed

that your organisation was committed to a struggle for the

principles of the African National Congress?— I said in

relation to the whole struggle for liberation, but that

in my understanding is what the African National Congress

stands for.

BEKKER J ; Yes, but rohat I have in mind is this?

before the Congress, your Congress, alligned itself with

the African National Congress, to what extent did your

Congress investigate the policy of the African National

Congress?— I think we accepted it in broad principles, my

lords. I don't know that there was ever any specific

study of the Constitution - the broad principles were known

of struggling for liberation by means of a non-violent

struggle.

MR. LIEBENBBRG; For a People's Democracy?— For

the universal franchise, my lords.

And toe stablish a People's Democracy?— To esta-

blish a Democratic Government of t he People,.

I want to know, Mrs. Joseph, were not members of

the African National Congress present at the inaugural

conference of the South African Congress of Democrats?

Were they not invited?— I'm trying to remember, my lords;

I think that fraternal delegates would have been invited

but I cannot now recall who came. I imagine there would

have been - — I am sure there would have been. . .

At the meeting in September, 1953, did they not

play a recorded speech of Mr. Mandela?— There were re-

cordings - - it may well have been one of those; I do

not recall it specifically.

14543 MRS . JOSEPH

(Witness): Bit I certainly wouldn't dispute it ; I don't

now remember exactly which speeches were played, /

And were there also members of the South African

Indian Congress present at that first conference of the

South African Congress of Democrats?— Yea, my lords, there

certainly were because I remember that Mr. Kathalia was

elected to our National Executive,

So that as far as you know there was no differ-

ence between the policy of their organisation and that

of the African National Congress?— No, my lords; there

would be no d_ff erence,;, that I can recall0

Now, in this article or paper of Hodgson's

he again speaks of the decisive action that is mentioned

in that Springbok Legion pamphlet, C ,292 . Now, wasn't

this aspect of the policy discussed at this conference?—

My lords, it may have been; I really do not recollect

the discussion that took place; this was seven years

ago now. Papers were read and as I remember it there was

some discussion on thorn, but I really cannotremember

what form that diseres: on took0

But you were all agreed on the principle of

establishing a People's Democracy in South Africa?— We

all agreed on the principle of establishing for - working

for democratic government; whether the phrase People's

Democracy was specifically used I really don't recall ,

but the principle of establishing democratic government

with all that it implies - representation of all the

people -w as certainly accepted.

You see, in this article of Hodgson's he says

the following on page 3' " I t has to d e a l . . . " that is the

National Liberation Movement - - " It has to deal with

14543 MRS . JOSEPH

the situation which requires the defeat of the Government

and its replacement with a democratic People's Government*"

I put it to you that that was a factor that was prominently

discussed at this Inaugural Conference?— My lords, the

defeat of the Nationalist Government is certainly promi-

nent in our policy. That is not in dispute for a moment,

I cannot recall whether this was featured in the discus-

sions; I really am quite unable to recall what line the

discussion took on these particular papers.

And its replacement with a Democratic People's

Government?— My lords, I am sure that the Conference

would agree on that, that the present government should

be replaced by a democratic government; to me that is

so obvious, that is what we are working for, a democratic

People's Government.

Now you gave the impression in your evidence-

in-chief that you wanted to repudiate the paper presented

by Mr. Bernstein at this conference?— My lords, may I

ask which paper that w as?

"The Road to Liberty"? Exhibit C.52 , and it

appears on page 1553 to 1564, my lords .?— My lords, I

really want to dispute the suggestion that I wanted to

repudiate that document - that is not so at a l l . I con-

fined myself to pointing out that these were not policy

statements adopted by the Conference because they were

presented through the extracts that appeared in the

Crown's Opening Address; there was the impression given

that they were policy documents. I was trying to clear

it up on a factual basis, my lords.

Those two documents were presented by people

who were elected to the Executive?— That is so, my lords.

14543 MRS . JOSEPH

And it was there decided that those two documents

should be circularised among the branches for discussion

?— Por further discussion; that is correct.

And that would be a sort of indicationto the

branches of what line the new organisation was proposing

to follow?— I don't think it can be strictly speaking

construed in that way. If that had been the actual line

that had been adopted then I imagine they would have

been adopted at Conference and circulated to branches more

for information.

But they were not rejected at the Conference?— No,

I have not suggested that they were specifically rejected.

But they were not adopted as policy statements. They

were referred to the branches for further discussion.

Because they were approved of?— I understand that

they were referred because it was felt, and I do now seem

to recpll more clearly "that the Conference itself did

not provide sufficient time for full discussion of these

documents. My lords, that happens very frequently at

conferences? when the pressure of time becomes a factor.

No resolutions were passed on their contents - merely

a resolution that they should be - - for agreement - -

I don't even know if that was a resolution - - that they

should be referred for further discussion and the impli-

cation to me is that they required further discussion.

It was not a question of repudiating or rejecting or

accepting. They wanted further discussion, on them.

No amendment to either of them was suggested

at the conference?— My lords, they were not resolu-

tions that called for amendments. I cannot really see

14545 MRS. JOSEPH

how that would ar ise .

You see, these articles - both these articles, I

put to you, saw the South African scene as outlined in

the Springbok Legion pamphlet, C .292?— That may be so.

I haven't studied the "Road to Liberty".

And both these papers suggested an organisation

of the masses to defeat Fascism; that is also in accord-

ance with your policy of your organisation?— Yes, it would

be.- I must stress, however, that I have not looked at

"The Road to Liberty" for many months. I did look at the

other paper because it occurred in the Crown's Opening

Address.

And the "Road to Liberty" makes mention of the

decisive clash to which South African affairs were moving

? — My lords, without looking at document I really would

not be able to know very clearly what the writer had in

mind.

I ' l l read it to you, Mrs. Joseph. " I think it is

that fundamentally we all feel that South African affairs

are moving to a decisive clash in which are ranged on one

side all the forces of South African reaction gathered

under the slogan of Apartheid and white supremacy, and

ton the other side all the forces of democracy and pro-

gress gathered under the banners of ending race discrimi-

nation and establishing a living and all embracing demo-

cracy" . Is not that in agreement with the policy of your

organisation?— My lords, a description of the forces of

reaction and democracy would agree with our policy but

I am not quite clear, and I would not like to commit my-

self , on what is meant by a decisive clash; whether it

means a physical clash or a clash of ideas; it is not

14543 MRS . JOSEPH

clear, my lords.

But was it not discussed, Mrs, Joseph?— I cannot

remember now whether these documents were discussed in

detail or not. I know that theyw ere read, but I have al-

ready said that I do not recall what form the discussion

took. It is a very long time ago.

Is it possible that you are not fully acquainted

with the policy of your organisation?— I have always

thought that I w as fully acquainted with the policy of the

Congress of Democrats, as a member of the National Execu-

tive .

So you claim to know the policy?— I have always

felt that I did, yes; yes, I do claim to know our policy.

Here v.e have had no less than three papers, the

Springbok Legion circular, draft of Immediate Programme

of Action, The Road to Liberty - - all three putting

this as a view - two opposing forces in South Africa.

The one is the force of a total Demo-racy and the other

is total Pascism. This one saye - The Road to Liberty

speaks of the forces of reaction, as against the forces

of progress; they all follow that same line; do you

agree?— I have already said that that is , broadly speak-

ing, the way in which we view the situation. My objection

was to the fact that I did not understand clearly what

was meant in this paper by a decisive clash - what form

of clash was envisaged-, That was my sole objection.

Well, could it mean a revolution, Mrs. Joseph?—

I don't know.

Could i t ? — I don't know what was in the mind of

thewriter; I have not been given an opportunity of study-

ing the document, my lords,

14548 MRS. JOSEPH

Well, Mrs. Joseph . . . . ? — I don't know whether

he means a violent revolution clash or not. But I would

like to stress, my lords, that in the context of the policy

of the Congress of Democrats - none of these documents

are official policy statements of the Congress of the

5

Democrats, not t he letter of the Springbok Legion, nor

these two papers, which were presented by individuals to

the Conference. There was no South African Congress

of Democrats before that conference.

May "I refresh your memory, Mrs. Joseph. Was"The 10

Threatened People"issued as an official policy statement

by the Congress of Democrats?— Yes, my lords, I would

say that "The Threatened People" was.

And may I remind you that this paragraph of "The

Road to Liberty" was literally incorporated in "The Threa- 15

tened People"?— That may be so, my lords; I would have

to look at the "Threatened People".

BEKKER J; Well, can you produce that paragraph

now?

MR. LIEBEFBERG; "The Threatened People" is C.268 20

my lords. This is issued by the South African Congress of

Democrats?— Yes. I know this pamphlet„

Now, on page 31?"Toward singing tomorrow" is the

titles "South African affairs are moving to a decisive

clash, in which are ranged on one side all the forces 25

of South African reaction, gathered under the slogans

of Apartheid and White Supremacy, and on the other side

all the forces of Democracy and Progress gathered under

the banners of ending race discrimination and establish-

ing a living and all embracing Democracy. That clash has 30 been a long time in the making-- All South African history

14549 MRS. JOSEPH

1 has been pregnant with it but until recently it has been

possible for people everywhere to avoid taking sides* to

put off the day of decision t i l l tomorrow, or to convince

themselves that the clash would somehow miraculously post-

pone for decision by a later generation." Now, do you

5

agree that this portion from "The Road to Liberty" was em-

bodied in the policy statement of your organisation?—

Yes, my lords, I agree that it was embodied in i t .

And in this paragraph theword "clash" is used

no less than ";hree times?— Yes, my lords. May I add 10

something to that, I thought I was getting another ques-

tion?

RUMFFF J : Yes?— My lords, when I see the sentence

now in the framework of this extract from "The Threatened

People" then it does become more clear to m® and I state 15

that I certainly did not interpret i t , and I don't think

the writer intended it to be so interpreted, as a revolu-

tionary clash in the sense of a violent revolution. He

is merely emph^ ap? r .g that events in So114:^ Africa pre

moving to the point where people must take a decision; 20 they cannot any longer push it into the future. That

is what I see. I don't see it in the sense, now I see

it in this content, of a physical clash or a revolution,

a violent revolutionary clash.

MR. IIEBEEBERG% Mrs,Joseph, your organisation ^

wanted a clash between these forces?— My lords, I do not

know on what grounds that is put to me, that our organi-

sation wanted a clashc

According to this paper?— That is not my in-

terpretation of it at a l l , my lords, that there is any- 50 thing that indicates that we wanted that clash.

14550

MRS. JOSEPH

It merely states that people are being compelled to make a

decision, ax1 when I say people I mean the white people,

because this pamphlet was aimed primarily at the white

electorate. That they were being compelled by events

along the road where they would have to make a decision;

they were not any longer able to stay in the middle of

the road. They would have to decide in which direotion

they are going. That has always been the point of view

of the Congress of Democrats, my lords.

I want to put to you a passage appearing on

page 2 which reads as follows; "

RUMPFP J ; Of what?

MR. LIBBENBERG: Of "The Road to Liberty" , my

lord. This void in the democratic camp must be filled,

and filled soon i f the pending clash is not in fact

to take place on racial l ines " . Now do you agree, Mrs.

Joseph, that the idea of a pending clash is not repu-

diated here but welcomed,only that some steps should be

taken to prevent it from taking place along racial lines

? — I really don't see any implication of welcome; it

merely says if it is not to take place on racial lines.

But, my lords, I would again ask if I could see this docu-

ment. I t ' s not a welcome.

BEKKER J; Place the document before the witness.

Would you agree that it predicts a clash?— The

writer seems to have that in mind, yes, my lord. He

seems to feel that a clash is coming, but I'm not sure

of the nature of the clash until I have more opportunity

to see this document. Ylhen it appeared in "The Threa-

tened People" I understood it - - now this is another

portion.

14551 M S . JOSEPH

MR. LIEBENESERG % Mrs. Joseph, we had the word

'clash' so frequently in this Court. Sejake also spoke

of a clash at the Freedom Charter Committee Meeting. Do

you remember?— Yes, I remember, but I also, I think,

gave my idea of what he intended by 'clash ' .

5

What is the ordinary meaning of the word 'clash ' ,

Mrs. Joseph?— (Witness studies document). My lords,

in this whole paragraph, what I see is an emphasis on the

importance of a body amongst Europeans which would be

comparable to the Congresses taking its stand alongside 10 the Congresses, so as to avoid the clash in whatever

sense the writer intended the word 'clash ' , being only

on racial lines. In other words it is advocating an

organisation such as the Congress of Democrats. 'Clash'

doe s not appear to have a specifically violent meaning 15

here as I read i t , my lords.

The author seems to suggest that various groups

should co-operate together under the banner of democracy

to avoid a clash taking place - an impending clash -

taking place on racial lines , but I suggest to you, Mrs.

20 Joseph, on ideological lines?— I would like to be clear

as to what the Prosecutor means by ideological lines?

Your ideology as against the one that you des-

cribe as white supremacy?— That is so, my lords? that,

as I understand i t , is the meaning of this paragraph - 25

the importance of there being a body of people who would

beprepared to take their stand with the Congresses under

the banner of democracy«

And then work for this forthcoming c!b sh? —

Not work for i t , the forthcoming clash, at a l l , my lords. 30

14552 MRS. JOSEPH

There is no such implication here, my lords.

Well , Mrs. Joseph, perhaps this, "The Threatened

People" will help you,

RUMPFF J; Just before you go on, may I just

have a look at that document? Yes.

MR. LIEBEMBERGr? If your policy was one of

exerting pressure on the electorate and in that fashion

to secure changes, political changes, what have the

references to a clash on racial lines in that document

to do with it? Why refer to a clash on racial lines ,

and avoiding the clash on racial lines?— My lords, I

imagine that that reference fits into the context of

the whole docurait. I haven't yet read the whole docu-

ment .

I suggest to you that the reference to clash

there seems to indicate that you had no policy of exert-

ing pressure on the electorate?— My lords, that is

really incorrect. The whole purpose of the Congress

of Democrats was to exert influence on the European elec-

torate; that is why we were mandated to work amongst

them.

Why speak of a decisive clash, Mrs.Joseph

if you wanted to exert pressure on the electorate?—

My lords, I can think of quite a few reasons why one

would speak of a decisive clash; if one is addressing

oneself to the European electorate one would warnthem

about the dangers of the conflict that was developing;

I can see that it would be quite logical to mention

the clash. I cannot see that it is inappropriate.

Well , I suggest to you that that clash means

one thing, and that is violent action, Mrs. Joseph?—

10

15

20

25

30

14553 MBS. JOSEPH

My lords, I do not agree; I say again I have not yet

had an opportunity of refreshing my memory on the whole

document , but I do not think it is necessarily a violent

clash, or if the writer is speaking from the point of

view of prediction - of the possibility of a violent

clash, then it may well be that in the document he is

trying to put forward ways of how this can be avoided,

not that he is welcoming i t , because I cannot see that

that would be the line of policy adopted by a member of

the Congress of Democrats, but my lords, I must really

first read the whole document,, But to me it is incon-

ceivable that such a line as is suggested by the Prose-

cutor could have been put foiward at the Inaugural Meet-

ing of tiie Congress of Democrats; it would be totally

in conflict. »

This document, "The Threatened People" C .268 ,

on pages 7 and 8 has the following passage: "We can per-

sist in a belief that we can barri -ide ourselves within

a bastion of white supremacy; we can ignore the tide

of events everywhere in the world where the under privi-

leged and the backward are advancing towards the acqui-

sition of universally recognised human rights«> We can

await the prospects of South Africa having to shoot the

issue out as in Kenya 9" Does not that suggest that the

clash would be a violent one? The prospect of having

to shoot the issue out as in Kenya ?— My lords, as I

have heard it so far the writer is simply putting

foward a thing - the course of action which could be

adopted; we could await such a prospect.

He says "We can await the prospect"?— Yes, we

could carry on in our present way and face the danger of

14554

MRS. JOSEPH

such a prospect. That is how I would understand i t , my i

lords. That does not mean that we would wait in the sense

of welcoming it . I don't see any such indication here.

Well, shooting the issue OUT; as in Ken.]a, would

that be a decisive clash?— It would be; that would be

a decisive clash, but that to my mind in this context 5

I don't know the rest of it - - but I get the implication

that the writer is putting forward the suggestion that

we could do this; we could do this, but we ought to do

something else. I would like to know the rest of that,

what follows, because I have a strong feeling that that 10

is what is coming.

The alternative, the other alternative, he says

is to "grant full rights to these people" - to the non-

Europeans; that is the other alternative?— Well , my

lords, that is the stand of the Congress Movement. 15

And if that demand of the Congress Movement

is not satisfied, then there will be a shooting out

as in Kenya?— My lords, the writer has put it as one

of the possibilities; he has not made a prophesy about

i t . These things did happen in Kenya, they did happen 20

in other places; to my mind, to say that we can await

such things doesnrt mean to say that they are unnecessarily

going to happen. I think I must see the whole paragraph

- in its whole - to get a clear impression.

Your organisation is very clear about this,

that there is a tide of events everywhere in the world

where the under privileged and backward people are gain-

ing independence?— That, my lord, is a fact, it is so.

And he says "7e can ignore that situation

but the prospects in South Africa will then be one of a

14555 MIIS. JOSEPH

violent clash as in Kenya"?— My lords, I don't really

accept that interpretation because as I have listened to

that paragraph the writer says "We can do a number of

things". He doesn't stress one more than the other.

He says "We can ignore the tide of events, we can await

the prospects of the tragic occurrences of Kenya"; I

think the paragraph, my lords, really must be considered

as a whole. He is trying to set out some of the possi-

bilities that might happen in South Africa if we ignore

the trend of eventsc

Your organisation,incidentally did Mr.Bernstein

draft this pamphlet "The Threatened People". It would be

quite logical?— There seems to be a s imilarity of some

of the paragraphs; I don't remember whetherthis was

drafted by one individual or by two or three together.

And it goes on to say "The day has passed when

a thinking South African could believe that white supre-

macy would endure for ever, or even last for another

fifty years, long enough for our own life time. The

issues have now presented themselves for our decision".

My lords, may I assist; this pamphletThe Threatened

People" was read into Court as PA.22, my lords.

BEKiER Js Where do I find it?

MR. LIEBENBBRG: I ' l l give it to your lord-

ship. PA.22 from page 1386, and a gain, my lords, at

1405 and 5421, I ' l l give your lordships the reference

to that passage in a moment, my lords, the one I'm

reading now;"The issues have now presented themselves for

our decision; can a limited democracy survive? Can

open conflict be averted? These are the issues which

loom above all else, " How I 've read to you the whole

14556

MRS. JOSEPH

paragraph, Mrs. Joseph, and I suggest to you that the 1

author had in mind what h says here, 'open conflict ' ,

on page 1387 this passage appears, my lords?— My lords,

the writer certainly in this paragraph poses that ques-

tion, "Can limited democracy survive? Can open conflict

5

be averted?" I presume he then goes on to answer i t .

That's your organisation's view, Mrs. Joseph?—

I t ' s a questio, my lords? I don't know where the view

comes in . . .

I 'm dealing with the meaning of the word 'clash'

and I suggest to you that in this paragraph that I read 10

to you, i t ' s clear that 'clash' means an open conflict;

a violent conflict, a shooting out of the issue as in

Kenya?— My lords, in view of this paragraph which has

now been read to me, it now makes clear the meaning of

'clash' in the earlier pages of this pamphlet, but surely, 15

my lords, now this word has been used in this specific

context, where I agree here it is quite clear the writer

is seeking in his mind how this - what he foresees as

the possibility of open conflict - can be averted. Now

it becomes clear, my lords, as I see it . I t ' s not a 20

question of policy„

Not the writer , Mrs. Joseph, your organisa-

tion?— My organisation has always wanted to avert the

possibility of open conflict®

Your organisation issued this pamphlet, 25

"The Threatened People"?— Yes, my lord.

And your organisation says there are two

alternatives in South Africa. Either you grant the

non-whites all the rights they want, or else you will

face the prospect of having to shoot it out?— My lords, 30

14557 MRS. JOSEPH

that is stated in a very categorical way, but it is true

that our organisation believes that it is essential to

grant universal franchise and to grant rights to all people

in South Africa. And we certainly have a fear that if

these rights are not ultimately granted there is the pos-

sibility of chaos and of a violent situation in South

Africa, as there has been in other countries. My lords,

this is the very reason why our organisation takes its

stand with Congress Alliance who shares the same view

with us, my lords, Our aim is to seek these remedies

peacefully,

Mrs. Joseph . . . ? — To want to avert open

conflicts; we don't want i t .

Your organisation recognised the Fascist state

of development in South Africa?— That is s o . We have

referred to it as a Fascist State.

And you said there was no prospect of getting

any changes through or in Parliament?— Ho, my lords, I

qualified that already,.

Your organisation, Mrs, Joseph, I don't care

whether you qualified it or not - - your organisation

said that?— My lords, then I must ask where my organisa-

tion said it o

C„41 f "Notes on the political situation issued

by your National Executive Committee"?— Then I remember

discussing that and that was what we have said - that we

do not see any possibility of Parliament as it stands at

present voluntarily remedying the situation,, That is

true, that is why we advocate and support extra parlia-

mentary pressure in addition to the actual white electorate

14558

MBS. JOSEPH

itself , the small handful of sympathisers in the white

jf j . -4 ; . v

electorate. The white electorate we believe,through pres-

sure, economic and moral, will eventually see what lies in

their own interests. That is what we believe, my lords*

Mrs. Joseph, your organisation said it was dif-

ficult to mobilise the whites for the struggle for libe-

ration because they held illusions about constitutional

and parliamentary action?— Yes, my lords, I don't dis-

agree with that statement; it is difficult to mobilise

the whites on this basis - - i t ' s part of our task to make

them see it differently — you cannot do it just at the

moment through constitutional . . . .

And you recognise that as far as being able to

get the changes that you envisage, you were up gainst a

stone wall in South Africa? And that a violent clash

was the only solution?— My lords, the Congress of Demo-

crats has never at any time put forward the view that a

violent clash is the only solution,,

You deal with the mental state of the white

electorate; you say they suffer under illusions, you

condemn the Liberal Party as well . Mrs. Joseph?— My

lords, a s far as the Liberal Party is concerned, the

criticism of the Liberal Party was only at the time of

its inception when we did not agree with its policy,

but over the years the Liberal Party has modified its

policy greatly, and there is no longer any criticism.

We work together.

Mrs,Joseph, when your organisation came into

existence in 1953, if you had wanted to struggle intra-

parliamentary, it would have been the simplest thing for

14559

MRS. JOSEPH

you to join forces with the Liberal Party?— Our orga- 1

nisation was in existence before the Liberal Party.

When the Liberal Party came into existerc e -

don't evade the question, Mrs0 Joseph - - when the

Liberal Party came into existence - - I don't care 5

which came in first - - but at the stage when the

Liberal Party engaged in Parliamentary political action

it would have been the simplest matter for your organi-

sation to join forces with that body and fight inside

Parliament?— My lords, it would not have been, because 10

the Liberal Party then would accept and put forward the

idea only of a qualified franchise, and the Congress of

Democrats stood squarely on the full franchise. It

would not have been possible to join forces at that

stage.

MR. NOKlTEs May it please your lordships, 15

there is a request from the accused who are listening

through the earphones that Mr, Liebenberg speak a

little slower,,

RUMIW^Ts Yes,

MR. LIEBEEBERG; I 'm sorry, my lords. 20

You did not condemn the Liberal Party because of its

policy as to a limited franchise, so much as you con-

demned them for not joining forces with you and the

rest of the Congress Movement in extra parliamentary

action?— My lords, I cannot accept that statement 25

and I don't know where it comes from.

Mrs. Joseph, your first criticism of the

Liberal Party was that it stood aloof from the non-

European . .

RUMPFF Ji What exhibit is this? 30

14560

MRS. JOSEPH

MR. LIEBENBERG s I ' l l give your lordships the 1

reference. This comes from "Fighting Talk" , record

page 3036, "stood aloof from the non-European masses."

That is the passsage, my lords?— My lords, is this

being put to me as an expression of the policy of our

organisation? 5

Yes?— Then, my lords, may I ask in what form

it was expressed as the policy of our organisation? And

by whom?

It was in "Fighting Talk" , Mrs. Joseph?— My

lords, "Fighting Talk" is not the organ of the South 10

African Congress of Democrats.

Mrs. Joseph, please don't evade the question.

You know that "Fighting Talk" - the whole administrative

work connected with "Fighting Talk" was done in the office

of the South African Congress of Democrats?— "Fighting 15

Talk" Committee shared our office; it was not done by

the South African Congress of Democrats. My lords, I

must really protest, that unless the Prosecutor is pre-

pared to show me in what way this is a policy statement

of my organisation, I really cannot accept it as such. 20

FUMPFF Ji Yes„

MR. LIEBEKBERG-; Mrs. Joseph, you make things

difficult. In the Exhibit C c 294 , "Springbok Legion Na-

tional Conference 1953"? page 1779, my lords - " I t was

resolved that the National Executive Committee be re- 25

quested to enter into discussion with South African

Congress of Democrats with a view to the more effective

exploitation of "Fighting Talk" as a voice of the Demo-

cratic Movement. What do you say about that, Mrs.Joseph?—

14561

14543 MRS . JOSEPH

My lords, I say about that, what finally came out of

the discussions was the decision that "Fighting Talk"

should be an independent journal,

C. 299, page 1733, my lords, "South African

Congress of Democrats National Committee Meeting, 13th

February, 1954, contains the following: 'Recognising

the important role of "Fighting Talk" in the Democratic

Movement". That's your own National Executive on which

you serve, Mrs. Joseph?— Yes,

"Recognising the important role of "Fighting

Talk" in the democratic movement"; what do you say

about this?— About this statement?

Yes, the statement of the National Executive,

that "Fighting Talk is an important - plays an important

role in the democratic movement?— My lords, I don't

disagree with that statement, but it still does not make

"Fighting Talk" the official organ of the Congress of

Democrats.

And that steps should be taken to improve its

content?— Yes„

I put it to you that that shows clearly that

your National Body recognised "Fighting Talk" as the

mouthpiece?— It shows? my lords, that we recognised that

it played an important role but there is nothing in

this to indicate that it was our official mouthpiece,

or that any statement published in "Fighting Talk"

necessarily expressed the policy of the Congress of

Democrats. If the quotation, which the Prosecutor wants

to put to me, has been published over an official of the

South African Congress of Democrats, then I will accept

it as a policy statement, but I cannot accept it as such

14562

MRS. JOSEPH

unless I have that stamp on i t . "Fighting Talk'1 pub-

lished merely articles of people, members of all the »

Congresses - they were all free to write in their indi-

vidual capacity atfiidies for ''Fighting Talk" . I did

myself, my lords.

KENNEDY J : I seem to remember, we heard evi-

dence that it was managed by an independent committee

consisting of the three Congresses?— Three or four - -

yes, I think it was three, my lord.

That is officially stated?— Yes.

MR. LIEBENBERG: But it still indicates that it

is the mouthpiece of the Congress Movement, Mrs. Joseph

? — My lords, it really depends upon what one understands

by mouthpiece. It is not . . .

RUMPFF J : Where are you getting at - - is not

this an argument?

MR. LIEBENBERG: My lord, in relation to what

his lordship Mr. Justice Kennedy put, I followed on by

suggesting to her that the "Fighting Talk" , even if it

was managed by an independent committee . . . .

RUMPFF J ; I know - - pursuance of this matter

further - it will just lead to argument.

MR. LIEBENKERG: As your lordship pleases.

May I just put one more question, my lord? I won't go

too deeply into i t , I have many references left .

RUMPFF J ; Yes.

MR. LIEBENBERG: In your paper "Counter Attack"

Exhibit C . 52 , page 2084, my lords, the following appears:

"The Johannesburg Regional Committee has asked all C .O .D .

members to get at least five annual subscriptions to

Collection: 1956 Treason Trial Collection number: AD1812

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