Stan Meyers Secret Preventing Electrolysis (Amended)

StanMeyersSecret:PreventingElectrolysis

August16,2010

HMS776 SeniorMember

JoinDate:Mar2009Posts:125

StanMeyersSecret,PreventingElectrolysis.

PreventingElectrolysisallowsvoltagetotakeoverandsplitwaterinapurelyphysicalprocess.

Thewatermoleculeisapolarmolecule.ChemicalpolarityWikipedia,thefreeencyclopediaSinceitisapolarmoleculeweknowthatelectricfieldscancauseittomoveorrotate.Thisishowmicrowavesworktoheatfood.MicrowaveovenWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia

Electrolysisisachemicalprocessinwhichelectronsflowfromoneplatethroughthewaterandtotheotherplate(s).ElectrolysisofwaterWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia

InStanMeyer'spatent#4,798,661heexplains:"TheabovedescribedprocessisapparentlynotachemicalreactionprocesssuchasinFaraday'sLaws"

Ifelectronsarepassingthroughthewatertheresultisalwayselectrolysis.Itdoesnotmatterifyoupulsetheplates,addanelectrolyteoruseplaintapordistilledwater.Theresultiseithermoreorlessefficientelectrolysiswhencurrentisflowingthroughthewater.

Hasanyoneherestudiedhowcapacitorscharge,andwhatthechargereallyis?CapacitorWikipedia,thefreeencyclopediaCapacitorsCharging

Acapacitorchargeswhenelectronsflowfromonecapacitorplate,throughthecircuitandtotheotherplate.Thiscausesoneplatetohaveapositivecharge(lownumberofelectronscomparedtoprotons)andtheothertohaveanegativecharge(highnumberofelectronscomparedtoprotons).Adiodecanbeusedinthecircuitasaonewaycheckvalve,allowingelectronstoonlyflowoneway,allowingthecapacitortochargebutpreventingitfromdischarging.

So,electronstravelfromonecapacitorplatethroughthecircuittotheother,andthatcreatescharge.Whatifthedielectricmaterialbetweentheplateswasconductive.Ifsoelectronswouldflowthroughtheconductivedielectricfromoneplatetotheother.Thiswouldresultinthecapacitorloosingit'scharge.

Iftheelectronflowthroughtheconductivedielectricwasequaltotheelectronflowthroughthecircuit

thecapacitorwouldnevercharge.Iftheelectronflowthroughthedielectricwassmallcomparedtotheelectronflowthroughthecircuitthecapacitorwouldchargeveryslowlyandneverchargetoit'sfullpotential.Itwouldchargewithmuchlessefficiencyandneverfullycharge.

Didyouknowthatevendistilledwaterisslightlyconductive,andtapwaterevenmoresobecauseofthemineralsandchemicalsinit.ElectricalconductivityWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia

Ifyouput2platesinpuredistilledwaterandconnectthemtoapowersourcewhatistheresult?Youwillstillgetasmallcurrentflowthroughthewaterwhichwillcauseasmallamountofgasgeneration.Thisiselectrolysisataverysmallscale,andwithlowefficiency.

Howcanyoumakeacapacitorusingwaterasadielectricsinceevendistilledwaterwillconductenoughcurrenttopreventthecapacitorfromeverfullycharging?

Theanswer:Thetubesneedtobecoatedwithadielectriccoating.Ifyoudojustalittleresearchyouwillfindtherearemanydielectriccoatingswhichwillworkinsuchapplications,andmanyofthemarealsoeitherclearorhavealighttint?

Nowareyouwonderingwhysomanyhavefailedatreplicating?

Thisisonly1partofmanytounderstand,thechargingcircuitisthesecond.

TheChargingCircuit

ThechargingcircuitisaseriesLCcircuit,whichatresonancehassomethingcalledvoltagemagnification.LCcircuitWikipedia,thefreeencyclopediaVoltageMagnificationmeansthevoltageismanytimeshigherthanwhatthesupplyvoltageis.TheamountofvoltagemagnificationisdependantonacalculationusingthecircuitsresistanceandreactancestofindtheQ.

Voltagemagnification=VappliedXQ

SoifyourcircuithasaQof10andyourappliedvoltageis100,thevoltageacrossthecircuitcomponentswillbe1,000V.

Theresonanceisbetweenthesecondarycoilandthecapacitor.Theextrainductorsareusedtolimitchargingcurrenttoprotectthecircuitfromshortingoutatresonancesinceimpedanceislowestatresonance.Theinductorsarenotpartoftheresonantcircuit,theyaddaninductivereactancetolimitcurrent.

IfyougoevenfurtheryouwillfindoutthatthechargeofacapacitorisdefinedasQ=CV.CisinFarads,andVisvoltage.

Theatomswhichmakeupthewatermoleculehavealowerdielectricconstantthanwhentheyarepartofthewatermolecule,sowhenwaterspplitsbetween2platestheresultisareducedcapacitance.

Q=CVtellsusthatiftheQstaysthesamebutthecapacitanceisreducedwhatmustchange?

ThevoltagemustincreaseifQremainsthesame.

Thisphenemenonisknownasparametricresonance,ParametricoscillatorWikipedia,thefreeencyclopediaandcanonlyoccurwhen2requirementsaremet:

1.Thecapacitor'scapacitancemustdecreaseovertime

2.Thefrequencymustbe2Xtheresonantfrequencyofthecircuit.

Weknowthecapacitancewilldecreasewhenthewaterbeginstosplit,butwhataboutthecircuitoperatingat2Xresonance...Well,youseebecauseoftheaddedinductorsthecircuitbecomesafrequencydoubler,itisthatsimplepeople!

Ihavejustexplainedhowelectrolysisispreventedinthecircuitandcapacitorplates,whichallowsthecapacitortochargetoahighvoltagewithgreatefficiency.

IsitthathardtounderstandthatunderthecorrectconditionsasexplainedabovethattheatomswhichmakeupthePOLARwatermoleculecanbeattractedtooppositeelectricfieldsandseperated?

August17,2010

lamare SeniorMember

JoinDate:Oct2008Posts:473

Youmaywanttotakealookatthisthread:

Bedini,Meyer,capacitors,batteriesandtheelectreteffect

Interestingly,normalelectrolyticcapacitorshaveadielectriclayer,whichisformedoutofaluminumoxide.Theinterestingthingaboutadielectriclayeristhatitcanbepolarised,whichgivesyouanelectricfieldaslongasthedielectricispolarised.

Fromthere,onecanalsoexplainwhysuchasystemcanseeminglyproduceenergyoutofnothing.ThisissimplybeingconvertedbythedielectricumasexplainedbyProf.TurturasIpostedhere:Bedini,Meyer,capacitors,batteriesandtheelectreteffect

August17,2010

HMS776 SeniorMember


lamareGoodtoseeothersherewhounderstandthis!!!

SloveniaYourwelcome.

Idon'tpostveryoftenanymore,butonceinawhileIfeeltheneedtosharesomethingnewIhavelearned.

HairBearWhatdoyoumeanbybreakingtheconductivepathandmixingatomisedwaterwithambientair?AreyoureferingtoH2opowersposts?

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Thepolarnatureofthewatermoleculewhichfacilitatestheformationofminutedropletsinthemistappearstocausearelationshipbetweenthedropletsizeandthevoltagerequiredtoeffecttheprocess,i.e.,thegreaterthedropletsize,thehigherthevoltagerequired.

Doyouunderstandwhylargerdropletsrequirehighervoltagetosplitthewater?

Itisbecauseofthehydrogenbonding...Ifyouhavealargerdropletyouhavemoremoleculeswhichincreasestheoverallstrengthofthebondssincetherearemore.Tosplitthemrequiresahighervoltage.HydrogenbondWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia

Intheinjectorexplainedinthecanadianpatent#2,067,735thewater,ionizedair,andrecirculatedexhuastalltravelthroughtheinjectorthroughtheirownseperatenozzles.Thenozzlecreatesatomisedwatermistataverysmalldropletsizeof"10to250microns".Thenozzlesallenteracoaxialvoltagezonewhichsplitsthewaterdropletsastheytravlethroughit.Andasstatedinthepatenteitherasparkplugofthehighvolatilityofhydrogencausecombustion.Theinjectorsareminiaturewaterfuelcellsandworkinthesamemanner,theyevenuseaDCRESONANTCHARGINGCIRCUITtochargethecapcitoratresonance.

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thepresentinventionisamicrominaturizedwaterfuelcellwhichpermitsthedirectinjectionofwater,andit'ssimultaneoustransformationintoahydrogencontainingfuel...StanMeyerCanadianPatent#2,067,735

IfyouhavestudiedtheTechBriefandpuharic'sinjectorpatentyoumighthavenoticedthatthegroundedelectrodehasaninducedvoltageonit'sinnersurfaceduetoelectrostaticinduction.ElectrostaticinductionWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia

Armagdn03Soundslikeyouralsounderstandingthis,AWESOME!

SuchayoThisrequirestheresonantchargingcircuitthatstanmeyershasexplainedallalong.Voltsandcurrentdifferduetomanyfactors...Capacitorsize,transformersecondaryinductance,chokeinductance,resistanceofcircuitandresonance,aswellasvoltagemagnificationandparametricresonancehavetobeconsidered.

Yesdielectricbreakdowniswhenthedielectricmaterialisdestroyed.Thisisbecausethehighvoltagefieldovercomesthedielectricstrengthofthedielectricandpuncturesthroughit....StanMeyer'sworkdoesnotsplitwaterudingdielectricbreakdown.

Ifyouhavearesonantchargingcircuit,chargingatubesetwithadielectriccoatingandthevoltageovercomesthedielectricstrengthofthecoatingtheresultwillbecurrentflowingthroughthewater.Orinotherwords,electrolysis.

Therequirementisbasic,butrequiresknowledge....Youpreventelectrolysis(currentflowthroughwater)byusinganadditionaldielectriccoatingonthetubes.Andyoupreventthechargingcircuitfromshortingoutatresonancebyaddinginductorstohaveaninductivereactance.

IfyoustudycapacitorsyouwillfindtheDissipationFactorisimportant.Withoutadielectriccoatingthedissipationfactorwillbeveryhigh,meaningyouwillhavecurrentflowthroughthewater,resultingin,onceagain,electrolysis.

DissipationfactorWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia

August17,2010

HMS776 SeniorMember


Iforgottoadd,ifyouwanttoseetheworkofsomeonewhoreallyknowswhat'sgoingonhere:

WaterFuelCell(WFC)Researches

Hiscircuitworks,althoughtheproductionislowduetoahighdissipationfactorandlowmaxvoltage(Lessthan2kV).Inthecircuitheisprobablypushingthevoltageashighasitcansafelygosincehe'susingacommonwallplugtransformer.Heevenshowsparametricresonance(stepcharging)onanoscilloscopetofurtherproveit....Itisasimplecircuitandcanbeeasilyreconstructedorreplicated.

JLnaudin'spageiswhereIfirstlearnedofandbegantounderstandthis.

August18,2010

lamare SeniorMember


Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyHMS776 Ifyouhavearesonantchargingcircuit,chargingatubesetwithadielectriccoatingandthevoltageovercomesthedielectricstrengthofthecoatingtheresultwillbecurrentflowingthroughthewater. Orinotherwords,electrolysis.

Therequirementisbasic,butrequiresknowledge....Youpreventelectrolysis(currentflowthroughwater)byusinganadditionaldielectriccoatingonthetubes.Andyoupreventthechargingcircuit fromshortingoutatresonancebyaddinginductorstohaveaninductivereactance.

IfyoustudycapacitorsyouwillfindtheDissipationFactorisimportant.Withoutadielectriccoatingthedissipationfactorwillbeveryhigh,meaningyouwillhavecurrentflowthroughthewater, resultingin,onceagain,electrolysis.

DissipationfactorWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia

Themostinterestingtypeofcapacitortostudyinthisregardistheelectrolyticcapacitor(SeeforexamplethelinkspostedhereBedini,Meyer,capacitors,batteriesandtheelectreteffect)forinformationabouthowtomakethindielectriclayers.

Whatyouarereallysayingwhenyoutalkaboutpreventingelectrolysisisthatyousplitwaterusinganelectricfieldinsteadofanelectriccurrent.Thispatentsuggeststhatthisisinterelypossible:http://sdch2o.free.fr/vrac/GB%202.32...20R.Eccles.pdf

However,inthispatenttheyareusingvoltagesashighas25kV,whichisapparantlynecessaryinordertogetanelectricfieldofsufficientstrengthinbetweentheplates.

Thatbringsmetowhyanelectrolyticcapacitorissointeresting.AsIpostedhereBedini,Meyer,capacitors,batteriesandtheelectreteffect,inanelectrolyticcapacitorthedistancebetweenthe"plates"isactuallyverysmall,becausethefluidinbetweentherealplatesisnottobeconsideredasadielectricbutasanelectrolyte,aconductingfluid.Thismeansthatthenegativeplateisextendedtroughthefluidsuchthatthenegativechargedoesnotresideonthenegativeplateitself,butinsidethefluidveryclosetothepositiveplate,namelyattheborderofthedielectric,nonconductinglayerthathasbeenformedatthepositiveplate.

Thisway,youcangetastrongelectricfieldnearthepositiveplate,atlowvoltagesbecausethedistancebetweenthe"plates"isverysmall,intheorderofafewmicrometer.

Anotherveryinterestingfeatureofdielectricsisthattheycanbepolarised.Ifyoumakethispolarisationpermanent,usuallybyheatingadielectricmaterialandlettingitcoolagainwhileinanelectricfield,youhaveanelectret.Inelectrolyticcapacitors,thepolarisationisnonpermanent.Itfadesawayaftersome,usuallyshort,time.

However,thispolarisationdependsonthestrengtoftheelectricfieldthatisappliedtoit(acrossthecapacitor"plates"),soitappearstobepossibletocreateastrongpolariseddielectricinbetweentheplatesofanelectrolyticcapacitorbyapplyinghighvoltagepulsestothecapacitor.Itappearsthatthiswayyoucanpolarisethedielectricusingverylittleenergyandsinceittakesawhilebeforethepolarisationfadesaway,yougetawindowofopportunitytoutilisetheelectricfieldyoujustcreatedinyourdielectric.Ofcourse,thehighertheappliedvoltage,thelongerthepolarisationlasts.

AsIpostedhere:Bedini,Meyer,capacitors,batteriesandtheelectreteffectProf.Turturthengivesyouthekeyintounderstandinghowthisprocesscangiveyoumoreenergyoutthanyouhavetoputinyourself.Theelectricfieldisanenergysource:

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AsfarasIcantell,atthismoment,theonlyexplanationfortheexistenceofexcessenergyinanycapacitorlikesystem,beitBedini'scapsandbatteriesorMeyersfuellcell,isthemorethanlikelyexistenceofasuperpolarizeddielectricumsomewherebetweenthecapacitorplates.Itappearsthatinallthesesystemselectrolyticcapacitorsarebeingcreated,withvariousqualities,dependingonthingsliketheusedmaterialsandliquids.However,itisclearthatsuchapolarizeddielectricumprovidesanelectricfieldandthattheenergyforthatcomesfromthevacuum,asexplainedbyProf.Turtur:http://www.wbabin.net/physics/turtur1e.pdf(page1014).

Thekeytoobtainingthisenergysourceandutilizingit,canbefoundinBedini'sandMeyerstechnologies(aswellasStiffler)andtheunderstandingofhowanelectrolyticcapacitorworks.

Thedielectriclayerformedinanormalelectrolyticcapacitorisverythin,andsuchthatthedielectricbreaksdownatabout125%ofthenormaloperatingvoltage.So,normally,thedielectriccanneverbepolarizedverystrong,becausethepolarizationisinducedusingafieldcreatedbythecapacitorplatesbecauseofanelectronflowfromoneplatetotheother.So,at125%ofthenormaloperatingvoltage,thedielectricumshortsoutandnofurtherpolarizationispossible.

However,anelectro(magnetic)fieldcanexistofitsown,withoutneedforanychargecarriers(electrons).So,ifyouwouldpolarizethedielectricumwithanelectromagneticorelectricfield,themaximumpolarizationpossibleisnolongerboundbythedielectricbreakdownpropertiesofthedielectric.

Whatyouapparantlygetthen,isasuperpolarizeddielectricuminbetweencapacitorplatesandanelectrolyte,whichcreatesanelectricfieldthatismuchstrongerthanthefieldcreatedbythecapacitorplates.Sinceundernormalcircumstances,thesetwoopposing(!)fieldsareofcomparablestrength,thenetfieldinthedielectricumisrelativelysmallorevenclosetozero,sothepolarizationinsidethedielectricumcannotmaintainitself,itisweakenedbythefieldofthecapacitorplates.

IthasbeenawhilesinceIthoughtaboutthisandnowIamnotsosureaboutthepartsthattalk

aboutthebreakdownofthedielectric.Comingtothinkaboutthis,itappearsthatthereasonforhavingtousepulsesforthepolarisationofthedielectricisexactlybecausethefieldscreatedbythecapacitorplatesandthedielectricopposeoneanother.So,youcanonlyutilisethefieldcreatedbythedielectric(whichextendsintotheelectrolytefluide)tosplitwater(intheelectrolyte)whenyoudischargethecapacitorplatesthemselves...

So,yes,Ithinktheuseofaninsulatingdielectriclayermakesitpossibletosplitwaterusinganelectricfieldinsteadofanelectriccurrent.

However,ifyouusethetubesasanormalcapacitorandthedielectriclayerasjustaninsulator,youwillneedandmaintainveryhighvoltagesacrossyourcapacitorplates,whichwillmostlikelygivealotenergyleakageproblemsaswellasgivesyoutheproblemthatthedielectric"insulator"willpolariseandopposeyourappliedelectricfield.

OTOH:ifyouusethesametubesasanelectrolyticcapacitor,meaningyouhavetocreatethedielectriclayerelectrolytically(asIpostedhereBedini,Meyer,capacitors,batteriesandtheelectreteffect)inordertomakeitverythin,thencangetaconsiderableelectricfieldinsideyourfluidwithouttheneedtomaintainveryhighvoltagesforaconsiderableamountoftime.

Tomakealongstoryshort:Iamconvincedthekeyis:theuseofadielectriclayerthatismaintainedasasemipermanentelectretusinghighvoltagepulses,suchascreatedbyBedini'sSSGandthelike.

August18,2010

lamare SeniorMember


There'salsoaveryinterestingcommenthere,sayingbasicallythesamething:TheWaterFuelCell::ViewtopicWFCConditioningUpdate

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"IknowtherehasbeenlittleornointerestinwhatIsaidabouttheoxidelayerontheSSactuallybeingthedielectric,butsomethingIreadonanotherforumby'Ravi',hasmademeevenmoreconvincedbythisnow.Hestatedthatittookmonthsforhiscellstobeconditionedandworkingattheefficiencytheywerecurrentlyworkingat.

ThisiswhatIthinkishappening:

Stainlesssteelis'stainless'becauseofthechromuiminit.Thechromiumoxidiseswhenitcomesintocontactwithoxygen.Thiscreatesaninvisible,extremelythinfilmofchromuimoxide(Cr2O3).Thisfilmofchromiumoxideselfhealslikegalvanisedsteel,butunlikegalvanisedsteelthelayerisonly

atomsthick.Chromiumoxideisaninsulator,withadielectricconstantofaround13,butatliterallyonlyatomsthick,simplytouchingitwillbreakthroughthisinsulation.

Now,theinterestingthingaboutstainlesssteelisthatitwillactuallycorrodebadlyinanOXYGENFREEenvironment.Itisthecontinualpresenceofoxygenintheairorwaterthatallowstheoxidefilmtoselfhealandmaintainitself.Now,thinkaboutwhatwedowhenweusessasananode.Weimmersethessinwatercontainingfreeoxygenwhichmaintainsitsprotectiveoxidelayer,butthenweattractlotsofpureoxygendirectlyontoit'ssurface.Ibelieveweareenhancingtheoxidelayer;thickeningtheoxidelayerandsocreatingamoreformidabledielectriclayer.Hencewehaveabetterwatercapacitorthatwillholdachargeforlonger"

Waterasthedielectricwasalwaysabugbearofmine,asIneverreallythoughtthispossible,orlikely...putsimplytapwaterconducts.Thentheimportanceofconditioningoftheplatescametolightmoreandmore,andwithitrealisationthattheconditioningwasactuallyforminganinsulatingdielectriclayer.Waterisnotthedielectric.

Wehavethecapacitornow,withwaterbeingsimplyanallencompassingextensionofthecathode.Nextquestionthenishowexactlyarewegettingthewatermoleculetosplitandreleaseitscomponentgases?

Iftheoxidelayerisaninsulator,formingthecapacitor,thenitshouldopposedDC.AC,ontheother,handwouldpasstoalesserorgreaterdegree,withthecapacitorallowingfarmorecurrentflowathigherfrequenciesthanlowerfrequencies.

Thethingis,wearenotprovidinganACsignaltoourcapacitor(whichispolarised),butratherDCpulses.ThecapacitorwillchargefromtheDCpulses,sotherewillbeastandingvoltageacrossthedielectric,andasthisleaksthepulseswillkeeptoppingthecapacitorup.

However,thisleakagecurrent,willpreventthevoltagereachingthe'stress'levelneededtophysicallypullthewaterapart,unlesswecantopitupfasterthanitcanleak.

Ithinkthatthesmallcurrentflowingthroughthewfcissimplythenaturaldcleakagecurrentofa'wetelectrolyticcapacitor',andwilllikelyhappenallthetimebecauseofthepdacrossthedielectric.Noamountofsocalled'ampconsumingdevices'beforethewfcwillstopthis.Onlyimprovingthedielectriclayerwillreducethis.

However,(s)healsotalksaboutdielectricbreakdown:

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IfandwhenaDCpulseattainsacertainlevelofpotentialdifferenceacrosstheoxidelayerdielectric,thenthisdielectriclayer(notthewater)briefly,butcatastrophicallybreaksdown.Thehighlychargedplateseffectivelyshortoutacrossthisdielectriclayer.However,thecurrentrestrictingLCcombinationwon'tallowthistohappenfastenough.Theelectricalchargesontheplatesareunabletoformanequilibriumandhencebalancetheplatechargesfromwithintheelectricalcircuit.Instead,otheroptionsarelookedforthisbeingthewater.Thewaterisinstantlyionisedasthewateriseffectivelypulledapart,theionsattemptingtomeetor,atleastreducethemassivechargedeficiton

theplates.

Whenthishappens,currentthroughthecircuitisnotaffectedmuch,butalotishappeningtothewaterwithinthewfc.

IMHO,thisisnottheanswer.Especiallysomereportsabout"coldboiling"batteriesuptohalfanhourafterthepowerhasbeenshutoffstronglysuggestthatthekeystothesekindofphenomenonaretobefoundintheelectricfield(s)createdbypolariseddielectriclayer(s),notinelectriccurrents/chargemovements.

August18,2010

HMS776 SeniorMember


Thesocalledconditioningofthetubesispointlessinmyopinion.Evenifitisadielectriccoatingitcomesoffbytouchingit...Itisnotworththetimenortheeffort.

Dielectriccoatingscanbepurchasedfrommanysources.Itisimportantwhenchoosingadielectrictogetonewhichhasahighdielectricconstantandahighdielectricstrength.Findaliquidkindthatyoucaneitherdipyourtubesinorsprayiton.Letitdry,takeameasurementofboththecapcitanceandtheresistanceacrosstheplateswithwater(anykind).Youcanusethattocalaculatethedissipationfactor.Andtheresistance(shouldbeintheMegaOhmrange)canbeusedtocalculatetheleakagecurrent(currentflowingthroughwater).

Ahighdielectricconstantmaterialisneededbecauseitallowsthemostvoltagetobeinducedthroughthedielectricduetopolarization.

RelativepermittivityWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia

DielectricstrengthWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia

NatoneMThevoltagevaries,butinthepatentIreferencedaboveitstatesitiswithintherangeof500to20,000Volts.Onlypersonalexperimentationandknowledgewilltell.

AgainIwouldreferyoualltoresearchJLnaudin'sWFC.Heshowseverythinghedidandthereisnothingverycomplicated.Healsohasavideoshowinghydrogenproduction,andstillimagesoftheoscilloscopestepchargingtoshowparametricresonance.


IfyoulookatJLnaudinsmeasurementshehasaresiatanceacrossthewatercapmeasuredat2.94MOhms.Hehasthecapchargedto1.4kV.

Youuseohmslawtocalculateleakagecurrent.

I=ERwhereI=Currentinamps,E=VoltageinVolts,andR=ResistanceinOhms

1,400V/2,940,000Ohms=.00047Ampsleakage.

Keepinmindthisisnotthechargingcircuitcurrent.Itwillbegreater.Thisistheleakagethroughthewater.Ifthisleakageisnotinhibitedbyusingadielectriccoatingthecapacitorwillneverchargetoahighvoltageandtheonlyresultwillbelowvoltageelectroysisduetothevoltagedropcausedbythecurrentflowingthroughthewater.

August18,2010

HMS776 SeniorMember


Quote:

Electrolysisofwateristhedecompositionofwater(H2O)intooxygen(O2)andhydrogengas(H2)duetoanelectriccurrentbeingpassedthroughthewater.

Wikipedia,electrolysisofwater

REF:ElectrolysisofwaterWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia

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Whenacurrentispassedthroughasulfuricacidsolution,gasesaregeneratedateachelectrode

REF:ElectrolysisofWater

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WhenadirectelectriccurrentispassedthroughanELECTROLYTE(suchasamoltensaltoranaqueoussolutionofasalt,acidorbase),chemicalreactionstakeplaceatthecontactsbetweenthecircuitandthesolution.ThisprocessiscalledELECTROLYSIS

REF:Electrolysis

Quote:

"TheabovedescribedprocessisapparentlynotachemicalreactionprocesssuchasinFaraday'sLaws"

REFStanMeyer'spatent#4,798,661

"VoltagePerformstheworkofoppositephysicalattraction"StanMeyerColoradoVideos

IguessyoursayingStanMeyerwasanidiotthen.Amanwhoholdsover20patents.Amanwhohadtohidehistruetechnologywithconfusionandvaguenesstogetitthroughthesecuritylawsandintothehandsofthepublic.

Thanksforthepost,itisgoodtohavesomeonedisagree,itonlyforcesusalltodigdeeperuntilweknowwithoutadoubtwehavethetruth.JustlookatJLnaudinsWFCresearch.Itisaverysmallscaleddownversiononlyoperatingatjustover1kV,butitworksanddoeswhatMeyerclaims.Itusesaseriesresonantcircuittochargeacapacitortoahighvoltage,andadielectricisusedalongwithablockingdiodetokeepthecapcharged,ohanditseperateswater.

August18,2010

sebosfato SeniorMember

JoinDate:Dec2008Location:milanPosts:478

HelloHMSYoutheoryisnice,howeverfrommyexperimentswithdielectricscoatingsandupto40kvicantellyouthatisnotthewaymeyerdid.Heusedcurrentyes.Andalsoveryexpensivecatalystmaterialstoachievewhatheclaimed.Notthateasy...

Ihavecontactwithamanthathaveapatentaboutgeneratingh2andweknowhowtodoit,wejustmisssomemoneytoconstructtheprototype.Ithasmoretodowiththeselfionizationofthewaterandionsspeedthanonlycapacitancevariance.

Thiscapacitancedecreaseyoumentionisnonsenseandicanexplaintoyouwhy...isbecauseifyoudecreasethecapacitanceyouwillincreasethevoltagebuttheamountofchargewillremainthesamesonosensenogainnoexplanation.

Thereisapatentwitchiscalledfracturecellbyeccleswhereheexplainthesameselfionizationprinciplewitchi'mtalkingabout.

Allthetimewaterselfionize,itsions,however,youneedtofindawaytokeepitsohandh3+ionsapartotherwisetheyimmediatelyrecombinewhenyoutrytosplitthemapart.Therearemechanismstohelpthisorganizedionization.Therearemechanismstoapplytwodifferentpowersourcestothewater+1kindofforce.Thereisstillyetawaywhereoneofthissourcestoberfenergyandtheotherveryverylowtensionathugehugehugeamperage,togeneratetonsofh2ando2.ThereisawaywhereyouuseproprietiescorrelatedwiththeDorbitalsofsomematerialsassociatedwithlatticeholestohelpdissociateandkeepaparttheionsatthehighspeedneeded.Thereisstillanotherwaytocontroltheactionofthismaterialswitchnevergetconsumedintheprocesstobehaveasaspongeforionsifyoulike.Thereareinexpensivemembranesmadeofamaterialwitchwhereusedforconstructionof

structures3000yeasagothatstillexistfloatingoverhewaterallaroundtheworld.Therearepumpsthatworkveryefficiently.Therearetanksmadeoffiberglass.ThereareInductorsmadeofcopperbarsandnotthinwire.Resonantcapacitorsthatcanhandle10kA...

August18,2010

HMS776 SeniorMember


Quote:

Thiscapacitancedecreaseyoumentionisnonsenseandicanexplaintoyouwhy...isbecauseifyoudecreasethecapacitanceyouwillincreasethevoltagebuttheamountofchargewillremainthesamesonosensenogainnoexplanation.

Voltageisanelectricalattractionforcewhichcancausepolarmoleculestorotateandmove(whichishowamicrowaveheatsfood)soifyouincreasevoltage,youincreasetheattractionforce.Thisiswhyhighvoltageisconsidereddangerous,ithastheabilitytoattractlargeamountsofcurrentflow...

Quote:

"Voltagecananddoesperformtheworkofoppositephysicalattraction"StanMeyer

REFVoltageWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia

TheentiremethodofMeyer,Puharich,andDinglereliesonhighvoltageatregulatedcurrenttochargeacapacitor.Thecapacitorhasadielectrictoallowthevoltagefieldtobeinducedthroughthedielectricduetopolarization,butpreventscurrentflowthroughthewaterthuspreventingelectrolysis.

Ihaveseenothersexperimentsprovingthisworks.IfyoustudythepatentsofMeyer,puharichandothersyouwillfindtheyallaremakingthesameclaims.MeyerusedatheHVtransformer(VIC)circuit.Dingleusedavoltagemultiplier.PuharichusedaHVtransformer.

IalsomustsaythatIbelievethisverywellcouldbe(asexplainedbyTheDublinInstituteofTechnology)aninterruptionoftheselfionizationprocessofwater.Butinsteadofusingcurrentflow(electrolysis)itisdonewithHVfields.

SelfionizationofwaterWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia

August19,2010

sucahyo SeniorMember

JoinDate:Dec2008Posts:2,158

Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyHMS776 PuharichusedaHVtransformer.

PuharichdonotuseHV:http://www.freeenergyinfo.com/PatE7.pdf

August19,2010

lamare SeniorMember


Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyHMS776 Thesocalledconditioningofthetubesispointlessinmyopinion.Evenifitisadielectriccoatingit comesoffbytouchingit...Itisnotworththetimenortheeffort.

..


IfyoulookatJLnaudinsmeasurementshehasaresiatanceacrossthewatercapmeasuredat2.94MOhms.Hehasthecapchargedto1.4kV.

NotehatNaudin*is*"coating"thecenterelectrodetoo.Fromtheurlyouposted:

Quote:

ThecenterelectrodeoftheWFCv1.0hasbeencoveredwithathinadhesiveplasticsheetsohastogetafullyinsulatedcathod.So,itisnowpossibletogettheVoltageIntensificationwithanelectricalstepchargingeffect.BelowthemeasuredspecsofthenewinsulatedWFCv1.1.

Notethata"thinadhesiveplasticsheet"*is*adielectric....

Adielectrichasinsulationpropertiesaswellaspolarisationproperties.Naudinusestheinsulationpropertiesinordertogetridofanyleakagecurrent,usingasimpleplasticbag,butthe

polarisationpropertiesarealsothere.Thisisaverythickinsulationlayercomparedtotheverythinlayersusedinsideelectrolyticcapacitors,sothecapacitanceoftheconstructionismuchlowerthancanbeachievedwithverythinlayersasisdonewith"real"electrolyticcapacitors.

However,asNaudinshows,theconstruction*is*a(electrolytic)capacitorandhethusconfirmsonceagainonecanusetheelectricfieldinsidethecapacitortosplitwaterusingonlyanelectricfield,whichisalimitlessenergysource(seeTurtur),albeitthatyouhavetodoworktomaintainthefieldbecauseofleakagecurrentsandotherlosses.Andbecausethedistancebetweenthecapacitorplatesisconsiderable(evenwhenconsideredasanelectrolyticcapacitor,becauseofthethickdielectriclayer),withNaudinsconstructionyouneedahighvoltageacrosstheplatesinordertogetsufficientlystrongelectricfieldforwatersplittingtooccur.Inthiscasemorethan1kV.

So,thebottomlineisthatwiththeseconstructionwaterisbeingsplitusingonlyanelectricfieldinsteadofanelectriccurrent.However,currentisstillneededinordertomaintainthefield,becauseofleakages.

August19,2010

lamare SeniorMember


Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyHMS776 Voltageisanelectricalattractionforcewhichcancausepolarmoleculestorotateandmove(whichishowamicrowaveheatsfood)soifyouincreasevoltage,youincreasetheattractionforce.Thisis whyhighvoltageisconsidereddangerous,ithastheabilitytoattractlargeamountsofcurrentflow...

Itisactuallyabitmorecomplexthanthat.Voltagebasicallysayssomethingabouttheelectricfieldstrengthattwodifferentpointsinspace:

REF:VoltageWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia

Quote:

Thevoltagebetweentwopointsisashortnamefortheelectricalforcethatwoulddriveanelectriccurrentbetweenthosepoints.Specifically,voltageisequaltoenergyperunitcharge.[1]Inthecaseofstaticelectricfields,thevoltagebetweentwopointsisequaltotheelectricalpotentialdifferencebetweenthosepoints.Inthemoregeneralcasewithelectricandmagneticfieldsthatvarywithtime,thetermsarenolongersynonymous.[2]

Electricpotentialistheenergyrequiredtomoveaunitelectricchargetoaparticularplaceinastaticelectricfield.[3]

So,voltageisnotsomethingthatexistsonitselfsotospeak,butitsayssomethingaboutthestrengthofthe(static)electricfieldsthatareatwork.

Mostofthetime,itisnotsoimportanttonotethedifference,butinactualfactvoltageisnotaforce.It'smorelikethesummationoftheforcesenactedbytheelectricfieldoveracertaindistance(acertainpath)betweenthetwopointsofmeasurement.

Quote:

REFVoltageWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia

TheentiremethodofMeyer,Puharich,andDinglereliesonhighvoltageatregulatedcurrenttochargeacapacitor.Thecapacitorhasadielectrictoallowthevoltagefieldtobeinducedthroughthedielectricduetopolarization,butpreventscurrentflowthroughthewaterthuspreventingelectrolysis.

Notethatapolarizeddielectricinbetweencapacitorplatesacutallyreducestheelectric(voltage)fieldinbetweentheplates:

REF:DielectricWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia

Quote:

Chargeseparationinaparallelplatecapacitorcausesaninternalelectricfield.Adielectric(orange)reducesthefieldandincreasesthecapacitance.

August19,2010

lamare SeniorMember


Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyFarrahDay Patentsdon'tmeanathing,andourpersonalviewsonMeyerareultimatelyquiteirrelevant.Thetruthliesinthescienceorlackthereof,andalwayswill.

I'vetriedtocontactNaudinwithsomequestionsonhissetup,buthe'sneverbotheredreplying. Obviouslytheinsulatedcathodewillallowvoltagetobuildupasitwillalsopreventcurrentflow,andthisinsulationbecomesadielectric,butIdefyanyonetogetNaudinssetupactuallyworkingashedemonstrates.TheveryfactthatheprovidesalinkstoMeyer'sveryflawedexplanationofwhatis happeningatmolecularlevelimmediatelytriggersalarmbells.

It'slikeI'vepointedoutonnumerousoccasions,highvoltage(orevenlowvoltage)willorientatethebipolarwatermoleculeandpulsingmayindeedinducegreaterionisation,butyouareonlyleftwithhydroxlionsandhydronium.Sadlyyoudon'tgetthewatermoleculecleanlypulledapart convenientlyintooxygenandhydrogenasdepictedbyMeyer..andwhichisoftenunfortunatelytookasgospelbymany.

Asitstandsyouneedachargeexchangebridgeofsomesort,whichisalongthelinesofmyunansweredquestionstoNaudin.

IhavedonealotofworkinthisareaandI'mcurrentlydevelopingdesignstoproveordisprove someofmytheories.Onethingthathasalwaysbeenapparentisthatyouneedachargeexchangemediumofsomesortifyouaredealingwithionswithinthewater.

Ifyoureallythinkthatsimplyapplyinghighvoltagepulsesacrosswaterwillresultintheevolutionof oxygenandhydrogen,thentryitandseewhathappensordoesnothappen.I'mafraidit'snotquitethatsimple.

Thereareplentyofclaims,butsadlylittleinthewayofindependentlysubstantiatedclaims,andultimatelynorealproof.

Also,youhavetoconsider,thatifnocurrentwhatsoeverpassesthroughthewater,whichmanyofyouseemtothinkistheidealsituation,thenthevoltageontheelectrodeswillsimplybuilduptoamaximumandnocurrentwillevenflowthroughtheelectricalcct.

WRONG!

So,I'mcurious,inthisscenariowhatchemicalreactionswouldyouarguearetakingplaceinthewater?

Goodpointsandquestions!Let'sthinkaboutthis.

AsIpostedabove,whenyoupolarizeadielectricinsideacapacitor,thepolarizationwillactuallyopposethefieldyouappliedyourself.Fromanelectricalengineeringpointofview,onemustrealisethattherelationbetweentheelectricalfieldandelectricalcurrentatadetailedlevelisnotsotightlycoupledasmostofusthink.Inactualfact,electricalcurrentsdonotimmediatelyflowonceafieldispresent,thecurrentlagsbehindintime.Inotherwords:whileanelectricfieldmaycauseanelectriccurrenttoflow,itisnotthesamething.Itismorelikethatthewindmaycauseaboattomove,eventhoughamovingboatcausesdisturbancesintheairaroundit,too.

Sofar,sogood.

Ihavebeenintriguedforquitesometimebyreportsof"selfchargingcapacitors"and"coldboilingbatteries"afterhavingbeenchargedusingBedini'schargers.IcanonlyexplainthesekindsofphenomenonifIassumeapolarizeddielectriclayertobepresentsomewhereinthedevice.Inthecaseofaelectrolyticcapacitor,thisisactuallyawellknownphenomenoncalled"dielectricrelaxation":Spontaneouschargingradiantlychargedcapacitorresearchgroup

Itappearsthatthiswellknowndielectricrelaxationphenomenoncaneasilybeputintoahighergear,namelybyapplyinghighvoltagepulsesinsteadofDC,becausetheamountofpolarizationinthedielectricrelatesdirectlytotheappliedfield,i.e.thevoltage.Whateffectivelyhappensafterthepulsehas"diedout"isthatthepolarizeddielectricumsortoftakesovertheroleoftheexternalpowersupply.Capacitorsaswellasbatteriesspontaneouslyrechargebecauseofthisforceaccordingtoseveralreports.

Intheendyoujustuseanotherenergysourcetopush/pullyourelectronsaroundinthesystem.Thenicethingisthatthisisanenergysourceyoudon'thavetopayfor.Theonlydifferenceisthatthecurrentthatgoestroughtheliquidgoestheotherwayaroundcomparedtowheninducedbytheexternalpowersupply,ifIunderstandthisright.

So,thereisnothingunusualintermsofthechemicalreactions.It'sjustusingadifferentenergysourceinordertogettheelectrons(current)going...

Atsomepoint,thisstuffgetsquiteconfusing.Itappearsthatwhenyougofarenoughintothedetailsyouhavetoleavetheideathatcapacitorsstoreenergybymeansofpilingupelectronsbehind.Thevideopostedhereisveryintriguingindeed:Peter,whateverhappenedwithEricP.Dollard?

AndgoodoldSteinmetzalreadyknewthisperfectlyyearsago:Bedini,Meyer,capacitors,batteriesandtheelectreteffect

Quote:

Thereisobviouslynomoresenseinthinkingofthecapacitycurrentascurrentwhichchargestheconductor[capacitor]withaquantityofelectricity,thanthereisofspeakingoftheinductancevoltageaschargingtheconductor[inductance]withaquantityofmagnetism.

August19,2010

MichaelJohnNunnerley SeniorMember

JoinDate:May2008Posts:574

HVisoneofthekeys

Hvisoneofthekeysbutyoualsoneedachemicalchangesoasyoujustdonotendupwithwaterandalowtypeofelectrolysis.

TheHVhastobeinacontrolledstatesuchasinanelectronbeam,controlledcurrentisalsoimportantatthesource,notthepointofimplimentationasHVwillchangetohighcurrentinanydischargebeitalaser,electronbeamorcatastroficdialectricbreakdown.

UsingHVforelectronbeamgenerationisaprocessthattakesplaceinmicrosecoundsandifyoudonotcreateachemicalchangeatthatsamemomentyouwillnotobtainanythingandthisiswherepeopledonotgetitright.

WegobacktothegasN2,yesN2yetagain,Farraissayingforsure,butthatiswherethechemicalchangetakesplacesoaswedonotjustendupwithwateragain.Microsecoundsornanosecounds,thisiswhenthewaterandthenitrogenareattheirpointofvulnerability,thisisthetimeforchemicalchange.

Theamountofwaterisinthemicronamount,ifitistoomuchthenwewouldneedaverylargeamountofenergytocreatetheinstability.IfyouhadN2witha90%humiditythenyouhaveenoughwater,infacttheN2withwatervapouryoudonotseeit,itistransparent,thisiswhatisneededasyourbasictwocomponents.

ItisnoteasytobuildareactorforthechangetoNH3andN2O,wearedealingwithHVandinsulationproblemsdoarisesoasnottocreateshortingproblemswithinthereactor,aswehavefound.

Thisisoneofthereasonsforaslowerprogresstoafulldisclosure.Iamnotsayingthatthisistheonlyway,butformeitistheonlylogicalwayanditWORKS,whichisthemostimportantfactor.

Takeplantsandtheirchangingwithphotosynthesis,thisisanelectricalandchemicalchangeinnanosecounds,allatthesametime,itisnatureswayandthebestway.

August19,2010

HMS776 SeniorMember


Letmejustsayonceagain.Thisprocessiseithersplittingwaterusingelectricfieldsoritispreventingtheselfionizationprocessfromreturningtostability.Eitherwayitusesahighvoltagecapacitorinwhichcurrentflowthroughthewaterdielectricisreducedasmuchaspossibleusingadielectricfilm.Thevoltageattractionforceeitherattractstheunlikechargedatoms,ortheunlikepositiveandnegative

ions(createdfromselfionization).

August19,2010

HMS776 SeniorMember


Okthenhowdoyousuggesttheionicreactionintohydrogenandoxygeniscreated?Andhowwouldyoudescribejlnaudin'sreplication?

August19,2010

lamare SeniorMember


Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyFarrahDay Youcanrepeatyourselfasmanytimesasyouwant,butitwontchangethefacts.

Soyou'vegottheionsseparatedusinganelectricfield,butyoudon'twantcurrenttoflowthroughtheelectrodes...sowhatareyougoingtodowiththeseionsnow??BecauseIcantellyouonething, theywon'tmagicallytransformintooxygenandhydrogen.

Splittingthewaterisnottheproblem,thisissimplyionisation,whetherit'saproductofselfionisationorinducedionisation.It'swhatyoudotoprogressfromhydroniumionsandhydroxylionstoareactionthatevolvesoxygenandhydrogenthatisthecrucialpart!Andindeedisthepartwhereallideasofproducinggasesfromvoltagealonecomeunstuck...extremelyunstuck!

Thereactionsthattakeplacecanbefoundhere:ElectrolysisofwaterWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia

Quote:

nthewateratthenegativelychargedcathode,areductionreactiontakesplace,withelectrons(e)fromthecathodebeinggiventohydrogencationstoformhydrogengas(thehalfreactionbalancedwithacid):

Reductionatcathode:2H+(aq)+2e H2(g)

Atthepositivelychargedanode,anoxidationreactionoccurs,generatingoxygengasandgiving

electronstotheanodetocompletethecircuit:

Anode(oxidation):2H2O(l) O2(g)+4H+(aq)+4e

Thesamehalfreactionscanalsobebalancedwithbaseaslistedbelow.Notallhalfreactionsmustbebalancedwithacidorbase.Manydoliketheoxidationorreductionofwaterlistedhere.Toaddhalfreactionstheymustbothbebalancedwitheitheracidorbase.

Cathode(reduction):2H2O(l)+2e H2(g)+2OH(aq)

Anode(oxidation):4OH(aq) O2(g)+2H2O(l)+4e

Combiningeitherhalfreactionpairyieldsthesameoveralldecompositionofwaterintooxygenandhydrogen:

Overallreaction:2H2O(l) 2H2(g)+O2(g)

Thenumberofhydrogenmoleculesproducedisthustwicethenumberofoxygenmolecules.Assumingequaltemperatureandpressureforbothgases,theproducedhydrogengashasthereforetwicethevolumeoftheproducedoxygengas.Thenumberofelectronspushedthroughthewateristwicethenumberofgeneratedhydrogenmoleculesandfourtimesthenumberofgeneratedoxygenmolecules.

Therearetwohalfreactions.Oneofthem"eating"electrons,theotherdeliveringelectrons.So,inessenceallittakestoformacompletereactionsisawaytomovetheelectronfromwhereitisfreedtowhereitisusedintheotherhalfreaction.

Normally,youwoulddothatusinganelectricalwire,sotospeak.However,therealsoisaneffectknownas"dielectricbreakdown".Thismeansthatwhenasufficientlystrongelectricfieldisappliedtoadielectric,itstopsbeinganinsulatorandbecomesaninductor:ElectricalbreakdownWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia

Quote:

Alternatively,itmayrefertoarapidreductionintheresistanceofanelectricalinsulatorthatcanleadtoasparkjumpingaroundorthroughtheinsulator.Thismaybeamomentaryevent(asinanelectrostaticdischarge),ormayleadtoacontinuousarcdischargeifprotectivedevicesfailtointerruptthecurrentinahighpowercircuit.[...]

Partialbreakdownoftheairoccursasacoronadischargeonhighvoltageconductorsatpointswiththehighestelectricalstress.Asthedielectricstrengthofthematerialsurroundingtheconductordeterminesthemaximumstrengthoftheelectricfieldthesurroundingmaterialcantoleratebeforebecomingconductive,conductorsthatconsistofsharppoints,orballswithsmallradii,aremorepronetocausingdielectricbreakdown.Coronaissometimesseenasabluishglowaroundhighvoltagewiresandheardasasizzlingsoundalonghighvoltagepowerlines.Coronaalsogenerates

radiofrequencynoisethatcanalsobeheardas'static'orbuzzingonradioreceivers.

Forwater,thishappenswhenfieldstrengthsintheorderof30MV/m,or30kV/mm,or3kV/0.1mmarereached.(DielectricstrengthWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia)

Ishouldaddthattherequiredfieldstrengthfordielectricbreakdowntooccurinwaterdoesnotnecessarilyhavetobeastaticfieldstrength.Giventhefactthattheelectricfieldpropagatesatthespeedoflight,onecanatleasttheoreticallyreachtherequiredfieldstrengthwithlowervoltages,providedoneswitchesfastenough.Inotherwords,onecancreateaelecricalshockwavewhereatthewavefrontyouhaveaverysteepchangeinthefieldstrength.Ifthatwouldbethecase,IwouldexpectthatBedinikindofpulsesaremoreeffectivethanharmonic(sinewave)oscillators,becauseoftherapidswitchingprovidedbythesuddeninterruptionofacurrenttroughacoil.

Interestingly,someglowinghasbeenreportedbysomeWFCreplicators.Thisdoessuggestitispossibletoachieveelectrolysisbyhavingtheelectronsjumpdirectlybetweenthetwohalfreactionstakingplace*inside*thefluid.Youbasicallygettinysparksinsidethefluidinsteadofacurrentgoingthelongwaytroughthepowersupply.

Itmayverywellbethatthereareatleastthreowaystoinducetherequiredfieldstrengthinthefluid:1)Youusereallyhighvoltages(>30kV/mm)acrossyourcapacitorplates.2)Yousendahighvoltageshockwaytroughthefluid,whichtravelstroughthewholefluidbetweentheplates.3)Youpolarizeathindielectriclayertosuchadegreethatinitsvicinitytheelectricfieldisgreaterthanwhatisrequiredforthewaternearbytoreachdielectricbreakdown.

Theresultspostedbydifferentexperimentorsand/orsomepatentssuggestthatallthreewaysarepossibleandcanbeachievedpractically.

August19,2010



H+H+OorH2+O2

Quote:

OriginallyPostedbynatone_m Howareyoucreatingthevaporandmixingitinthereator?Iknowyou'vementionedbeforethatfirstH20hastobecrackedintoHHOsothatyouhavetheHavailableforNH3?Doyouheatthewater, regulateit,mixitwitharegulatedairsupplyinthereatorandbasicallyionizethewatervaporandairatthesametimeordoyoutreatthewaterinaseparatereactorthenmixitintheGPreactor?Thereasoniaskisbecauseyousaythatthewindowforcreatingnewmixtureisshort.Ithe

relaxationtimeforHHOequallyasshort?

Iwilljustreplytoyoulastsentence,whenyousplitwaterintohydrogenandoxygenyouwillgetH+H+OBUTthetimetochangetoH2+O2isfastandifyouwanttochangethehydrogenandoxygenintoanothergasyouhavetobeveryveryquickbeforeyouhavelosttheadvantageoftwoatomic"reactive"gases,thatisifyouwanttocreateanothergas,amorecompleteandcontrolablegasorgases.

HowmuchwaterdoyoureallyneedatanyonetimeifitistotallychangedintoHandOandhowmuchenergywouldyouusetodoit,andthemostimportantquestionofall,wouldyougetbacksufficientenergytokeepthesystemrunning?(Iamtalkingaboutrunninganenginehere).

August19,2010

lamare SeniorMember


IhavemadeanoverviewofmostofmypostsonthisforumregardingtheelectreteffecttheoryatArticle:TheElectretEffectPESWiki.Iintendtoworkthisoutinaproperarticleeventually,butitmayalreadybeinterestingtoreadasitisnow.

August19,2010

HMS776 SeniorMember


ItseemsnowthatouronlyoptionistoreplicateJLnaudin'sWFC.

Ifanyofyouknowelectronics,itisaverysimplecircuit.Nothingcomplicated,nothinghardtoget.Theentirereplicationcouldprobablybedoneforlessthan100bucks...

Tostartweneedthefollowing:

ACtransformer(removedfromwallplugadapter)

SStubes:3"inlength,Outertubeis.75"ID,maybe1"ODInnertube(orrodis1/2"OD)

12VDCPowerSupply(battery,computerpowersupplyetc)

HVdiode(ex:5kV,150nSreverserecoverytime,.25Amax)

24AWGenammelledmagnetwire

Ferrtiterodsorelectricalsteelcoreandbobbins

Nowforthedrivingcircuitwewillneed.

(2)50%dutycycle010kHzsquarewaveoscillators

(1)4093ICchip

Pots,resistors,diodes,andcapacitorsforcircuit(tobedeterminedonceIC'sareselected)

Circuitboardorbreadboard

FETI'mthinkinganIRFP450orsimiliarsinceit'sratedat500V....Ifthiscircuitcreateshighvoltageweneedsomethingwitharatingtobeabletotakethepossiblespikesattheprimary.

IwillgetbacktoyoualllaterwhenIdrawoutthecircuit....Keepinmindthiswillbeascaleddownversionwithaverylowmaxvoltageandsmallgasproductionsimiliartonaudin's.

Tobecontinued...

August19,2010

HMS776 SeniorMember


Beforeanyonebuildsthiscircuittheyneedtounderstandelectronicsenoughtounderstandwhatit'sdoingandhowitallworks.

Tobrieflyexplainthecircuit,thetwo4046'sareusedtoprovidea50%dutycycleoutput,adjustablefrom010kHz.The4046outputstothenandlogicwhich'gates'thecircuit.Thegatingiscontrolledbythefrequencyofoneortheother4046.Itdoesnotmatterwhichone.Ifyouhaveone4046adjustedatresonanceandyoubringtheother4046frequencyhigheryourgatingwillincrease.....etcetc.

ThelogicfromtheNANDgatecontrolstheFETwhichpulsestheprimarywinding.ThediodeplacedacrosstheprimarywindingisusedtopreventinductivekickandprotecttheFET.Thesecondarycircuit

isobviouslyasetofchokeswoundonthesamebobbinbifilarstyle.Adidoeisplacedinthecircuittoallowthecaptochargebutpreventitfromdischargingbackthroughthecircuit.Thechokesarealsousedtocausethechargingfrequencytobe2Xresonancemakingparametricresonancepossible.

ThecircuitsresonantfrequencyiscalculatedbetweentheSecondarycoilandthewatercapacitor.Thechokesarenotpartoftheresonance.Thechokesaremeanttolimitchargingcurrent(sinceatresonancethecircuitisnearadeadshort)usingtheirinductivereactanceXl.

Anyonewhobuildsthiscirucitdoessoattheirownrisk.HighVoltageisDangerous!

Therearemanythingsheretoconsider.Firstoffyoumustcalcualtetheturnsratioofthetransformer.Ifyoudon'tknowhowtodothis,forgetaboutreplicatingandgetaneducationinelectronics.Youwillnotbesuccessfulinthisuntilyouhavetheproperknowledge.

Secondlyyouneedtomeasuretheinductanceandresistanceofthesecondarycoil.(rememberthesecondarywillbetheendthatorigonallywaspluggedintothewallsinceweareusingastepdowntransformer(forgottomentionearlier)

August19,2010

HMS776 SeniorMember


OnceyouhavethecircuitbuilttestitusingaresistorandLEDfirst.Thendebugifthereareanyproblems.

Thenextproblemisgoingtobecoatingthecathodewithadielectriccoating....NaudinusedathinplasticsheetandthenwrappedthatintapeIbelieve.Thethinplasticsheethetalksaboutsoundstomelikesomethinglikescreenprotectorplastic???

Therearealsoliquiddielectriccoatingsavailable....Youneedadielectricwithahighdielectricconstantandadecentdielectricstrength....Iwouldsuggestyouhaveathicknessabletowithstandatleast3kV.Also,readupondielectricstobetterunderstandthem.

Thiswebsitecoverssomeinportantinformationondielectricstouseformakingyourowncapacitor!

Dielectric

Itisimportanttoalsomakesureyourdielectriccanhandlebeingsubjectedtohydrogenandoxygenwithoutbeingdamaged.

Itisveryimportantthatafteryouhavethecathodecoatedyouletitsitinwaterforseveraldays.Thenmeasuretheresistanceacrosstheplatesfromthewiresconnectedtothecap.Thisresistanceshouldbeatleast1Meg,thehigherthebetter.

Measurethecapacitance.WithwaterandnodielectriccoatingtheresistancewillbeafewKohmsandthecapacitancewillbeverylow....Withjustwateryouendupwithanextremelypoorcapacitorthatwillnotchargeneitherretainacharge.

Naudin'scapacitorspecs:5.19nFand2.94MegOhms.SinceweknowOhmslawwecancalucaltetheleakagecurrentthroughthewateratagivenvoltage.Ifthecapischargedto1,000V/2,940,000Ohms=.00034Amps,verylow

Nowthatyouhavethesecondaryinductanceandthecapacitanceyoucancalculateresonance.Itshouldbeinthe1kHz8kHzrangetomakesurethecircuitwilldriveitatresonance.

Thenextthingtodoisbuildyourinductors.Ifyourresonantfrequencyislowyoumightwanttomakethechokeinductance'shigher....SinceatreasonancethecircuitisnearashortsincereactancescancelyouneedtomaketheinductorshaveahighenoughXLtoprotectthecircuit.Alsobesureyouconnectinductorsinaseriesaidingconfiguration.

Ifyouknowelectronicswellenoughyoucancalculatevoltageandcurrentthroughouttheentirecircuit(minustransformerlosses)toensureitwilloperatesafely.

Thereisalottoknowwhenbuildingthis.Iwoulduseup20pagesifIhadtoexplainjusttheelectronicsandthecircuit.....Eventhenitisstillandwillalwaysbealearningprocess.

AnyQuestionssofaraboutthisreplication?

August20,2010

lamare SeniorMember


Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyFarrahDay Lamare,considerthis:

Ifitonlytakesaround1.5voltsbeforeelectrolysisoccurs,howcanwaterbeconsideredanythinglikeagooddielectric?Assoonasthevoltageexceeds1.5volts,thewaterconducts.

Peoplehavebeenforeverstatingtherelativepermitivityofpurewater,(thekeywordherebeing'PURE'),andassumingthisfigureforanyoldwater.Andnooneeverseemstobeabletograspthedifference.

Purewaterinthiscontextisnighonimpossibletoachieve.Notonlydoeswaterreadilyselfionise, butassoonasit'sexposedtotheatmosphere,atmosphericgasesreadilydissolveinit,tosaynothingofcontaminantsfromothersources.BitofabuggerIknow,butevendeionisedwatermakesforapoordielectric,andasfortapwater...wellit'safarbetterconductorthaninsulator.

Waterthatcanwithstandkvoltsbeforeitbreaksdownandconductsisspeciallypreparedinlaboratories,andwouldcostmorethanpetrol,whichmakesitallprettypointless.

Forwhatit'sworth(probablynotmuch)Meyerstatedthathecoulduseanyoldwater.Hecertainlydidn'tuselaboratorygradePUREwater,that'sforsure.

Ohboy.IknowIpostedthestandardreactionsforelectrolysisandthatwasonpurpose.Bothhalfreactionsarestandardredoxreactionswhichdonotoccurnaturally,becauseittakesenergytotakeelectronsfromthenegativeionsandfeedthemtothepositiveionstokeepthereactiongoing.Normally,youdothatusingelectrodesandapowersupply,butthereain'tnolawofphysicsthatforbidsyoutoperformtheexactsamereactionmoredirectlyusingastrongelectricfield.

IalsorealisethatthedataandwaterproportiesIpostedmaybeprettyfaroffbecauseofthereasonsyougave.However,theydogiveyousomeindication.

Geventheelectricstrengthofpurewater,30kV/mm,itiscleartherequiredfieldstrengthisachievablewithcapacitorplatesplacedatadistanceof1mm.Whenyouaretalkingaboutthethindielectricfilmsusedinelectrolyticcapacitorswhichareintheorderofafewmicrometer,youalreadycomewithintherequiredrangewithsomethingintheorderof60V.

WhiteIagreethesearejustroughestimations,intheendpracticerules.AndpracticereportedbynonelessthanJohnBedinisaysbatteriescan"coldboil".Naudin'stubesdoproducegas.Andthelistgoesonandon.Ijusttrytofindthepossiblemechanismstoexplainwhatpeoplereporttheysawinpractice.

Letmeaddthatitisnotimportantwetherornotwaterisa"good"dielectric.Whatmattersishowthevariousatomsandionsinsidethefluidreacttoanappliedelectricfield.Whathappenswhenadielectricbreaksdownisthatelectronsarefreedfromthematerialbecausetheyarerippedoftheatomsorionstheywereattachedtosuddenlyturningthematerialintoaconductor.AccordingtoWikipedia,whenonedoesthisonpurpose,onecreatesa"Disruptivedevice":

REF:ElectricalbreakdownWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia

Quote:

Adisruptivedeviceisadevicethathasadielectric,whereuponbeingstressedbeyonditsdielectricstrength,hasanelectricalbreakdown.Thisresultsinthesuddentransitionofpartofthedielectricmaterialfromaninsulatingstatetoahighlyconductivestate.Thistransitionischaracterizedbytheformationofanelectricspark,andpossiblyanelectricarcthroughthematerial.Ifthisoccurswithinasoliddielectric,physicalandchemicalchangesalongthepathofthedischargewillcausepermanentdegradationandsignificantreductioninthematerial'sdielectricstrength.Asparkgapisatypeofdisruptivedevicethatusesagasorfluiddielectricbetweenspacedelectrodes.Unlikesoliddielectrics,liquidorgaseousdielectricscanusuallyrecovertheirfulldielectricstrengthoncecurrentflow(throughtheplasmainthegap)hasbeenexternallyinterrupted.

Thefollowingarticlehandlesabout"dielectricbreakdown"ofwater:SandiaNationalLabsWaterDielectricBreakdownData

August20,2010

lamare SeniorMember


Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyFarrahDay Idon't,I'mnottheonesayingthatyoucanevolvegasesbydissociatingwaterbyvoltagealone...youare.Youtellme!

Inmyworld,asIstatedpreviously,wealwaysneedachargeexchangemediumwhendealingwithions.

Lamare,forsomereason,hassimplypostedthereactionsofnormaleverydayelectrolysis.Nothingnewthere,thisiswhatwearealltaughtatschool.Obviouslythereactionspasteddonotapplyifnocurrentisflowing.I'mthereforeatalosstofindanyrelevancetothepost,asvoltagealonewillnotproducethosereactions.

Whatyouappeartomisunderstandisthequestion*where*thecurrentisflowing.Currentisnothingmorenorlessthanmovingelectronsaround,whichoccurswhen(free)electronsaresubjectedtoanelectricfield.Whatismostcommonistohaveelectronsmovearoundinawireusingapowersupply,butthereareotherways.Forexampleinclassicamplifiertubes,thereisaheatedwirewhichreleaseselectronsintothevacuum,whicharesubsequentlyattractedtothemetalshieldsurroundingthewireandthatwayyoualsogetacurrent.

Usingthesameprinciple,pushingelectronsaroundusinganelectricfield,itisclearthatyoucanalsomovefreeelectronsaroundinafluid,which*is*acurrent.It'sjustthatthecurrentremainslocallyinsidethefluid,soyoudon'tprovideacurrentintothefluidyourselftroughtheterminalcontacts.

Inotherwords:ifyousomehowhavebeenabletocreatefreeelectronsinsideyourfluid,allittakestomakethemflowtroughthefluidisanelectricfield.Andasithappens,youcancreatefreeelectronsinsidethefluidprettyeasily.Justapplyanelectricfieldthatisstrongenoughtoripelectronsfromthenegativeions,a.k.a."dielectricbreakdown".

So,youareright,nothingnewhere.Justamatterofpushingelectronsaround

Quote:

It'shardtoknowwhattomakeofNaudin'sreplicationashewon'tansweremailsandthereiscrucialinfolackingonhiswebsite.ButIknowthatafullyinsulatedcathodewon'tdowhatheisshowingittodo.MostpeoplesimplytakethesethingsforgrantedIdon't!

AtthebottomofthepagehestatesheiscurrentlybuildingaWFCv2whichIwashopingmightshedmorelightonthingsbutnothinghashappenedforwelloverayear,somaybethisitselfisanindicationofthingsnotquitegoingtoplan.

IMHOyoumaybewrongaboutthat.Iftheappliedelectricfieldisstrongenough,itisabletocreatefreeelectronsinsidethefluid("dielectricbreakdown").Thatwayyouget"real"electronbasedcurrentsinsidethefluid,insteadofthe(relativelyslow)ionbasedcurrentsthatnormallytakeplaceinwater.

August20,2010

lamare SeniorMember


Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyFarrahDay

Actually,Iunderstandperfectlywell,andcurrentisnotnecessarilyelectronmovement.

Youhowevertalkabout'free'electronsinthefluidmedium,yetelectronsarenotthecurrentcarriersinafluidmediumsuchaswater.Thecurrentcarriersareionicspecies,notelectrons!HowcanyoustriptheOHionofitselectronusinganelectricfieldwhentheionitselfwillsimplymoveinresponse?

Howcanyouripofthebumberofacarusingarope,whenthecarwillsimplymoveinresponse?

(sudden)bruteforce....

Quote:

Furthermoreasalreadystated,thereisnodielectrictobreakdowninwaterit'saconductorabovearound1.5volts!

REF:http://www.waterfuelconverters.com/e070401.pdf

Quote:

Wefindthatcompletedielectricfailureislikelytooccurinwaterbetweenasignificantlyfieldenhancedanodeandalessenhancedcathode...

So,youarerightthatundernormal,lowvoltageconditons(withtheassociatedlowelectricfieldstrength)ionsaretheprimechargecarriersinwater.However,whenanelectricfieldwithsufficientstrengthisappliedtothewaterdielectricbreakdowndoesundoubdlyoccurandthensuddenlyfreeelectronsbecometheprimechargecarriers,becausetheycantravelmuchfasterthanionssincethesearemuchheavier.Justgooglefor"waterdielectricbreakdown".

August20,2010

lamare SeniorMember


Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyHMS776 Thenextproblemisgoingtobecoatingthecathodewithadielectriccoating....NaudinusedathinplasticsheetandthenwrappedthatintapeIbelieve.Thethinplasticsheethetalksaboutsoundstomelikesomethinglikescreenprotectorplastic???

Therearealsoliquiddielectriccoatingsavailable....Youneedadielectricwithahighdielectricconstantandadecentdielectricstrength....Iwouldsuggestyouhaveathicknessabletowithstandatleast3kV.Also,readupondielectricstobetterunderstandthem.

Aaronpreviouslysuggested"CoronaDope".Interestingly,alongwithreferencesthatStanMeyersupposedlydidthesamethingusingDelrin,whateverthatmaybe:

StanMeyerBifilarChokes

Quote:

HereiswhatIbelieveisanecessaryconceptthatmustbethroughlyexploredoritdoesn'tmatterwhatcircuityouhave...if,youwanttouseonlyvoltagepotentialtoseparatewaterwithnocurrentorbareminimum.

INSULATIONtomakethecellacapacitorinthetruesenseofcapacitor.

Stanshowedusingdelrintoencaseanentireinner/outertubesetup.

Ihaveseenattemptswithvandegraff's,etc..andotherhighvoltagemeanstoaccomplishpureelectrostaticseparationandnobodyhassucceededinanysignificantways.Thevoltageisleakingalloveranddustandotherstuffisattractedtothecellfromthefloor,etc...thatmeansitisnotacapacitor...itisnotholdingthatvoltagetoanyhighdegreeinthewatercellitself.Ifthatisthecase,therewillneverbeenoughvoltagefortrueelectrostaticseparation.

[...]

Stanshowedadelrinencasementaroundtheannodewithsmallopeningsatthetopandbottom.Thecathodeisinsidetheannode.Aswaterisdrawnintotheopeningatthebottomofthedelrinencasement,theONLYPLACETHEWATEREVENTOUCHESISTHEGAP.TheinnerpartoftheannodeandouterpartofthecathodeistheONLYpartwherethewatertoucheswithoutthevoltageleakingouteverywhereelse.Whatthatmeansisthattheannode/cathodetubesetreallyhasbecomeacapacitortolockinasmuchvoltageaspossiblewhereitcounts...thegapwhereyouwantthewatertosplitfromnothingmorethanpurevoltagepotential.

EvenifIhadthe100%foolproofVICcircuit,itwoulddonobodyanygoodatallhookingituptoashortcircuitedcell.

I'mnotamachinistandamnotinterestedindealingwithdelrin.Thereisaproductcalled"SUPERCORONADOPE."Itisaxylenelacquertypeofmixthatyoucanbrushontometalorwhateverandthenithardenslikeaglassandresists4000voltspermilor40,000permmthick.Ifyouhad2flat

platesandeachwasthoroughlycoatedwith1mmeach,thatisadielectricstrengthhighenoughtoholdback80,000volts.

StanleyMeyerExplainedQuote:

Manymonthsago,IshowedafewreferencestoPeterandhehelpedmebuildsomethingathisshop...arealwatercapacitor...whatthatprojectwasisirrelevant...whatisrelevantisthatthegoalistohaveawatercellwherevoltagepotentialWILLNOTLEAK.TheprojectwasfarfromperfectedbutthisconceptisclearlyspelledoutinTayHeeHan'spatentaswell.

Meyershowsthisveryclearlywithhisdiagramofthedelrinencasement.

Delrinisn'tpracticalforanyoneunlesstheyhaveaccesstosomemachinestopprobably.Myhomebrewsolutionwastogetacanofplastidiptocoattheoutsidepositivetubeintoisolateitfromthewater.Also,supercoronadopecanbepaintedontheoutsideofthepositivetube,whichIhaveafewquartsofthisforthispurpose.

Interestingly,inthispost,another(nowdeleted)postisreferred:Quote:

SincesomuchhasbeenalreadysaidontheWFCtheonlythingIhavetoaddistomakethemsotheoutsideoftheoutertubeisisolatedoutofthewaterbathandtogroundthewaterbathjustasStanleyMeyershowstoodo,andisolatedgroundrightinthewaterbath.Butisolatingthepositivefromthewaterbathhelpskeepthevoltagefromleaking.Andthecircuitryanywayyoufindthatwillpulsethetransformershouldwork,justmakesurewhenyouhaveeverythingsetthatyouareabletoraiseandlowerthevoltageindependentlyofpulsingandfrequency.InthealternatorallMeyerhadtodowasturnavariableresistortoraiseorlowerthevoltagetotherotorfieldwinding.

So,thereareindicationsthatStanMeyeralsousedinsulationinhisWFC..

Hereitsaysthefollowing:http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Ravi%20Cell.pdf

Quote:

InoneofStan'spatentshetalkedaboutusingpolyoxymethylene(Delrin)whichhasahighdielectricconstant.HeusedDelrinontheoutsideoftheouterpipeandtheinsideoftheinnerpipetocontaintheelectronleakage.ThebarrierformedbytheconditioningcoatinghasacomparativelylesserdielectricconstantthantheDerlinmaterialthicknessused.

August20,2010

lamare SeniorMember


Comingtothinkofthis,thepiecesofthepuzzlearestartingtodropintoplace.

Theelectricfieldisaninfiniteenergysource(Bearden,seemyreferenceddiscussionsatArticle:TheElectretEffectPESWiki)whereitnotthatinnormalelectricalcircuitselectronshavethenastyhabitofflowinginsuchadirectionthatthey"kill"thevoltageyouhavecreatedtomakeyourelectricfield.ThisiswhatBeardenhasbeentalkingaboutforyears."killingthedipole".

However,ifyoumanagetocreateanelectricfieldsuchthattheelectronsyouaremovingaroundwithitcannotreachthecircuitryyouusetocreatethefield,thentheycannotkill"thedipole",henceyougettousethefieldforfree,onlyhavingtopayforthelossesthatoccortomaintainthefield.Apparantly,theWFCwithproperinsulatedcapacitorplatescandojustthat,becausetheelectronsflowingfromonehalfreactiontottheotherstaywithinthesubstance,wherebytheneteffectisthatsomeatomshavebeenrearrangedsuchthattheyarenowhydrogenandoxygengas,insteadofwater.Theelectronshowever,staywheretheywere:inthesubstance.

Andsincetheelectronsinanelectrolysisprocessdonotleavethe"water"iftheyaremovedfromoneatom/iontotheother,theycannot"killthedipole".Asitturnsoutyoucanactuallysplitwaterwithlittlemorethanjustasparkplug,andimmediatelyburnitafterwards,bywhichitappearsenergycanactuallybe"gained",whichofcourseisactuallybeingpulledinfromthevacuum:

WaterSparkplug

Quote:

ROSCO,you'retheplugexpert,canyouverifytheseresultsundercompression?IdidusetheresistorlessNGKmotorcycleplugandsprayedwateranditdoesexplodewatermistlikeinGotoluc'svid.WouldbeinterestingtoseethiscircuitsparkingyourFirestormduplication!

Thisshouldbereallysimpletoreplicate.

August20,2010

HMS776 SeniorMember


Iforgottoadd,

Fortheinductorsyouneedtobuildthemtohavethesameormoreinductivereactancethanthesecondaryhadat60Hz.Thiswillensureyouhaveenoughreactancetoprotectthesecondaryfrom

excessivecurrentsatresonance.

Thisisbecauseasmentionedearliedresonanceoccursbetweenthesecondarywindingandthecap,sowithoutchokestheresultisaneardeadshort.Measurethesecondaryinductanceandcalculateit'sinductivereactanceat60Hz.Usethatinductivereactanceandtheresonantfrequencytodeterminetheinductanceneededforthechokes.

Thedielectricmaterialneedstobeconsideredasfollows.Everyonerememberstanmentionedthatheneededtobuildtheentiresysteminagarageenvironmenttoprotectthetechnologyfrombeingblocked.Heusednoexoticpartsormaterialstoalsoprotectthetechnologyfrombeingblocked.Thedielectricneedstobesomethingwidelyavailable,andcheap.

Greatpostseveryone,Ihavereadeachandhavelearnedagratdealsofar.

August20,2010

lamare SeniorMember


Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyFarrahDay NiceanalogyLamare,butthisassumesthattheelectronbondisarigidandweaklinkI'mnotsureitis.Youcouldn'tsoeasilypullthebumperoffthecarifitcompletelysurroundingthebody...andonstrongandelasticfixings.

True,butgiventhemanyreferencesto"dielectricbreakdown"ofwater,youwillreallyhavehardtimemaintainingthisisprincipallyimpossible.Itmaytakestrongelectricfields,yes,butitisdefinatelypossible.

Quote:

Anyway,here'ssomethingelseforyoutothinkabout.Onceyouinsulateanelectrodefromthewater,thenthatinsulationonthatelectrodebecomesthedielectric.

Allthevoltageisthenacrossthisinsulation,notacrossthewater.Thewatersimplybecomesanextensionoftheuninsulatedelectrode,andtheonlydielectricbreakdownthatwilloccurwillbethatoftheinsulation(whichwillnotselfrepair).

DoyouseewhatI'mgettingathere?

Thisismoreorlesswhatsebosfatoissaying,too:

Quote:

OriginallyPostedbysebosfato GuysInaudingotnothing,thatstepchargeeffectmeansnothing...Ialreadydonethatisveryeasyandstupid...andwontgenerateanygas...whyinsistontheoriesthatwereprovedtobewrong?

Iagaintellyou,Ialreadydidthisexperiment...Thestepchargeeffectwerethesame,howevernogascanbegenerated.

Thereissomethingcalledelectricfielddistributionthatoccurswhenyouhavetwodifferent dielectricconstantsinseries.Whereyouwillfindthebiggestelectricfieldwillbeonthesmallest valueofdielectric...

Foryoutounderstanditwell,takea10nfcapacitoranda100nfcapacitorandconnecttheminseriestoapowersupplyandmeasurethevoltageacrossthecapacitors...Youwillunderstandwhati'mtalkingabout.

Ithinkyouwillhavetokeepinmindthattheelectricfieldtravelsatthespeedoflight,300.000km/s,whichmeansithasalreadytraveled30cmwithinonepicosecond,muchfasterthanionsorevenelectronscanreact.

Innormalcircuitdesign,thesekindsofconsiderationscanbesafelyignored,butwhenyouaretalkingaboutcircuitsthatareabletoextractuseableenergyoutofthevacuumusinganelectricfield,thenthespeeddifferencesbetweentheelectricfieldandthemovementofelectrons/ionsisveryimportant,becausethedelaybetweenthe"cause"and"effect"isexactlyoneofthoselittleunderstoodwindowsofopportunitythatwearetryingtoexploit.

ThisisalsowhatBedinimoreorlesskeepsonrepeating.Oneofthesecretsfor"overunity"istousehighvoltageDCspikes.Why?Becausethenyouhaveafractionofasecondtousetheenergyprovidedbythefield,beforethechargecarriersstartworkingagainstyou.

Ipostedaboutthisbefore:Discussionre:thephysicsbehindnegativeenergysystemswithradiantspikes

Quote:

However,IdolikeBeardens"don'tkillthedipole"and"howcircuitsareactuallypowered"theories:HowAnElectricalCircuitisREALLYPoweredBeardenforDummies

"Letmeputitthisway.Everyelectricalsystemweeverbuilt,andeveryonetoday,ispoweredbyEMenergyextracteddirectlyfromtheactivevacuumbythesourcedipoleinthesystem."

Heexplainsthisconceptalsoverynicelyinsomeofthevideo'soutthere.Wheneverchargeismovingfromthe+topolesofabatteryorgenerator,acurrentflows,whichopposestheveryreasonthecurrentoccurs,whichistheelectricfieldorpotential.

So,itistheelectricfieldthatcausesthechargestomove(dowork),whilethissamemovementofcharges(current)killstheveryreasonofit'sexistence:thefield,orthepotentialonyourbatteryor

generator.Ifyoucouldsomehowusethepotentialofanydipolewithoutkillingit,youcouldgetaninfiniteenergysource.Inotherwords:youhavetodisconnect"current"from"potential"onewayoranother.

Inthislineofthinking,thefollowingpaperbyKlausTurturismostinteresting:

http://www.wbabin.net/physics/turtur1e.pdf

Inthispaper,heshowsthattheelectricfieldemittedbyanychargecarriernotonlyisdynamic(spreadingwiththespeedoflight),butitalsocontainsenergy.Thatenergycomesfromsomewhere,whichyoumightcall"theDiracsea"orZPE,orwhatever.Bottomlineis:anychargecarriercontinuouslyconvertssomeofthis"vacuumenergy"intoaconstantstreamof"static"electricfieldenergy:

"Ontheonehandthevacuum(=thespace)permanentlysuppliesthechargewithenergy(firstparadoxaspect),whichthecharge(asthefieldsource)convertsintofieldenergyandemitsitintheshapeofafield.Ontheotherhandthevacuum(=thespace)permanentlytakesenergyawayfromthepropagatingfield,thismeans,thatspacegetsbackitsenergyfromfieldduringthepropagationofthefield.Thisindicatesthatthereshouldbesomeenergyinsidetheemptyspace,whichwenowcanunderstandasapartofthevacuumenergy."

Probablythemostimportantthingtorealiseisthattherearetwoenergyflowsinanycircuitorwire:1.theelectric(orEM)field(s)or"radiantenergy"asJohnlikestocallit.2.thecurrentchargecarriersmovingalonginsideaconductor.

TheE(M)fieldcomesforfree,it'sacontinousstreamof"vacuumenergy"beingconvertedbyanychargecarrier.

Whatwe'reafterinallelectricalfreeenergycircuitsistofindawaytoextractthis"vacuumenergy"withoutpayingthepricebykillingourdipoles.AndasfarasIunderstand,thebasictrickfordoingthatistoexploitthedifferenceinpropagationspeedoftheE(M)fieldvs.thechargecarriers.

IfyoulookattheSG,theGraytubeandthewatersparkplug,youseethatonepossibilityistoworkwithabruptswitchingofhighvoltages.So,apparantlyfastswitching(fastrise/falltimes)ofhighvoltagesoffersone"windowofopportunity"toexploitthispropagationspeeddifference.

IntheTeslaswitch,you'reworkingwithbatteries,wherethechargecarriersareionsmovinginafluid.Thesemovemuchslowerthanelectronstroughawire,whichiswhyyoucanexploitthisspeeddifferencebetweenE(M)fieldandchargecarriersatmuchlowerfrequencies(switchingspeeds)incomparisontocoils,etc.

Inaway,abatterycanbeseenasaverylongwire(asBeardenhastalkedabout).Whenyouputsomecurrent(chargecarriers)inononeside,ittakesarelativelylongtimebeforetheycomeoutontheotherside.So,wheneveryoureversethecurrentbeforethattimehaspassed,youcanusethepotential(Electricfield)withoutkillingthedipole.

So,Ithinkthatiswhatallthiscomesdownto:anexploitationofthedifferenceinpropagationspeedoftheEMfieldvs.themovementofchargecarriers.

August20,2010



Keepingontopic

WellIwouldjustliketosayfirstofallthatpreventingelectrolysiswasprobablythewrongterminology,unlessyouwanttohaveabulktankofwaterandplaceelectrodesofsomesortinthetankandnotcreateelectrolysistobreakitdown.

Youarebarkingupthewrongtree,Meyerdidthisatfirstandimprovedonit,butstillcouldnotproducesufficientgastorunhisbuggy,thatranonadifferentsystemandnotoneofelectrolysis.Correction,atfirstheranhisbuggyonelectrolysis,butonlyontickoverinhisdriveway,hecouldnotrunitonrevs:foradrive.

Thatledhimtofindanotherway,andthatasIhavegoneblueinthefaceis,NOTELECTROLYSIS.Highvoltageisneeded,butyouwillnevergetittoworkinatankofwaterandyoudonotneedatankofwater,wellasareservemaybe.AhighhumiditywillbesufficientsolookmoreatHVintoahighhumidityinanonecombustiblegassuchasN2.LookuppatentsthatproducewaterbreakdownusingRF,theywork,buteventhatisnottherealanswer,butatleastwillshowthathvwillbreakdownwaterifusedinadifferentway.

IamnottalkingMWhere,thepatentthatIamreferingtousesVHFandUHFbandasapushpullharmonicresonance(145mhzand450mhz).US7,378,063B1.Thisisclosetotherightidea,sodon'twasteyourmoneyonbuildinganitemthatwillnotgiveyouwhatyouwant,wellIdon'tthinkitwill,andprobablymythoughtsdon'tcount.

August20,2010

lamare SeniorMember


Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyFarrahDay Notreally.Theproblemis,youwillfindthatnoneofthesereferencesuseanythinglikeordinary, everydaytapwater.

Ofcoursethebeautyofa'pure'waterdielectricisthatitselfrepairsoncethevoltagedropsbelowthebreakdownlevel.Butthisisallquiteirrelevantwhenwearetalkingabouteverydaywaterwhichbreaksdownatalowly1.25volts.Quitesimply,everydaywaterisabetterconductorthanitisaninsulator,soitwillnever,evermakeaverygooddielectric.

Withnormalwaterwecaneasilyachieveplasmaarcingwithsuchascarbonrods,butofcoursethis ishighcurrentplasmaelectrolysis,whichIthinkwecanruleoutasanypartoftheMeyerconcept.

Allveryinteresting,butthesamestumblingblockstendtocomeupoverandoveragain.

Ihavebeenexperimentingwithaluminumtubesforawhile,becauseinindustrialelectrolyticcapacitorstheyusealuminumandwithaluminumonecanprettyeasilycreateverythindielectricfilmsonthesurface.LastyearIstartedusingordinarytapwateraswelasdemineralisedwater(fromacarshopasnormallyusedinbatteries):YouTubecap_experiments_.avi

Afewweeksago,Iexperimentedwithtwoaluminumtubeswiththeinnertubeadiameterofabout3cmandaspacingofabout1mmbetweenthetubes.Withthese,IcouldeasilyproducegasfeedingthecentretubewithspikesusingasolidstateBedinicoil(usingthesecondaryofa12Vtransformerforhalogenlampsascoil).IcouldalsoproducegaswhenIputaseparatetubeofabout1cmdiameterinsidethosetwotubesandfeedthatwithspikes.Withthat,gaswouldalsostillbeproducedinbetweentheoutertwotubes,whileonlytheoutertubewasconnectedtothepositiveofthebattery(whichreallyisthenegativewithrespecttothespike,asisusuallydonewiththeBedinischoolgirlschematic).

Whathappenedisthatthewatergetsblurrywithwhiteflocksafterawhile,whicharemostlikelyaluminumoxide.Atthismoment,thissetupdoesnotproduceanygasanymore,probablybecausealotofionshavedissolvedinthewater.

However,itturnsoutthattwokindsofdielectricfilmscanbemadeonaluminum,asIpostedhere:Bedini,Meyer,capacitors,batteriesandtheelectreteffect.ThestuffIhaveinmywaterdefinatelyclassifiesas"arathergelatinousnature"asmentionedinthebooklinkedthere.

GiventheresultsofmyexperimentsasshownonYouTube,IwilltryandseewhathappensifIcleanthetubesetup,addnewdemineralisedwaterandsodasothattheother,desired,typeofdielectricfilmisformed.Iwillprobablyhavetocreatethefilmwithsodaandtrytoproducegaswithanewbathofwater,butwe'llseewhathappenswhenIfindthetimetodoit.IftheformingofthefilmgoesthewayIintenditto,Imaybeabletousetapwaterafterthefilmhasbecomestable.Furthermore,myparentsinlawhavesomekindoffilterthatgetsatleastthecalciumcarborateoutofthewater.Thatmaybeworthatry,too.

TodayIexperimentedabitwithasimpleplasticbottlewrappedwithaluminumtapeandasinglecentretubewithadiameterofabout1cm.WiththatIcouldproducenogas.NotwithmysolidstateBediniandnotwithacarignitioncoil.However,theignitioncoildidproducehighvoltage,butnotspikesandtheBedinicoildidproducespikesbutnotofahighvoltage.ItmaystillbethataBedinicoilwithmoremusclesdoeswork.Asalways,absenceofevidenceisnotthesameas

evidenceofabsence...

August20,2010

HMS776 SeniorMember


IwillcontinuewiththeNaudinreplicationonceIfindasuitabledielectricmaterial.

Therearemanygoodpointsbeingmadeherebyeveryoneandtheyareallneededandappreciated.

IthinkitwassebosfatothatmentionedtheelectricfielddistributioninmultidielectriccapacitorsandIhavetosaythatmakesalotofsense.Thedielectric'sareresistancesinaway.Put2resistorsinserieswitheachotherandtheresistorwiththehigherresistancewillhavethegreatervoltageacrossit.ThereismorethatneedstobelookedintohereandIcouldnotfindalotofinfo....

RememberthevideowhereStansaidinorderforthetechnologytogetoutitmustbemadeinagarageenvironmentwithnoexoticmaterialsorparts.Thismeansthatwhateverdielectricheused,itmustbesomethingwidelyavailable....

Theotherthing,Ibelievethisdielectricwasbrushed,painted,ordipped.IfyouseeStanMeyersdemotubesetsandstudythepaperworkthatwaswiththemtheyalsohadaVIC...Sothesetubesmusthavealsobeencoatedwithsomething....AnditmusthavebeensomethingclearorclosetoitbecausethetubesstilllooklikeSS.

Theworkcontinues.

August21,2010

lamare SeniorMember


Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyFarrahDay

Lamare,checkouttheselinks:

Ihavereadthese.IthinkI'mtheonethatpostedtheseinthefirstplace

Quote:

Aluminium,justlikestainlesssteelalreadyhasaprotectiveoxidecoating,that'swhytheyarebothrelativelyinerttocorrosioninairandwaterundernormalcircumstances.

Wetelectrolyticcapacitorswereandstillareanintriguingdesignbecausedesignersmadetheanodetohavethegreatestsurfaceareapossible,andnomatterhowcomplicatedtheanodedesign,itdidnotneedacorrespondinglycomplicatedcathode.Anelectrolyticsolutionbecameanextensionofthemetalcathodecontainer.Alsotheverythin(microns)oxidelayerontheanodemadeforahighcapacitance.

Ifwearenotcarefulallwewillachieveisthefabricatingofalargeelectrolyticcapacitor.Thesciencedoesneedthinkingthrough.

Thewetelectrolyticcapacitorsdescribedabovedidgeneratesomehydrogen,butthiswasnotbydesignandwassimplyduetoleakagecurrent.AndwhatH2didevolvewasofcoursegeneratedbyeverydayelectrolysisaction.

SobyisolatingthewaterwithaninsulatorlikeNaudin,wheredoesthatleadus?

Weendupwithagoodcapacitor,butunlesstheadditionalinsulationonthecathodebreaksdown,wewon'tgetanycurrentflowing.

Naudin'ssetupisabitofamysteryandIguessitwillremainsounlesshedecidestoanswerhisemails.Maybe,justlikethemineralbuildupwecanachieveonthecathodeinhardtapwater,Naudin'sinsulationissomewhatporous.

ThethingthathasreallyintriguedmeisthereportbyJohnBedinithathehasbatteries"coldboiling"foruptomorethanhalfanhour*after*hehasshutdownthecharger.Howonearthcanthatbehappening?

Thenthere'sanalsointriguingexperimentbyMITwheretheydissectaleydenjar,acapacitor,andclearlyshowthatthe"charge"isnotonthecapacitorplates,butsomehowstoredinthedielectric:Discussionre:thephysicsbehindnegativeenergysystemswithradiantspikes

Andwehavethisalsointriguingeffectthatelectrolyticcapacitorsareabletorechargethemselvesafterhavingbeenshortcut,uptoacertainextent:SpontaneouschargingradiantlychargedcapacitorresearchgroupSpontaneouschargingradiantlychargedcapacitorresearchgroup

Theinterestingthingwiththese(standard)electrolyticcapacitorsisthattheextenttowhichtheyareabletospontaneouslyrechargethemselvescanbegreatlyextendedby"conditioning"themwith"radiantenergy".Thatis:feedthemwithhighvoltageshortdurationspikes.

Puttingthesethingstogether,Ifirstofallconcludedthatinthese"conditioned"capacitorsthedielectriclayer,wheretheenergyisactuallystoredgiventheMITleydenjarexperiments,issomehowbeingsuperpolarized.Thatmeanssuchaverythindielectricfilmonthealuminumanodecanapparantlybepushedintohighgear,whichmeansthissuperpolarizedfilmyouwillgenerateaverystrongelectricfieldinitsvicinity.Notbecausethereisahighvoltageacrossthisdielectricfilm,butbecausethefilmisverythin.Normally,whenaelectrolyticcapacitorischarged,thisfieldisbeingnutralized,becausechargesarebeingdrawntowards/pushedawayfromthesurfaceofthisthinfilmatbothsides,untileventuallythefieldsgeneratedbythesechargesbalancesthefieldgeneratedbythedielectric.Itisbecauseofthesefieldsthatoppozeoneanotherthatthecapacityofacapacitorbecomesbiggerduetothepresenceofadielectric.

Apparantly,itispossibletodisruptthisbalancebyshortcuttingthecapacitor,afterwhichthecapacitorwillreestablishthebalancebyspontaneouslyrechargingitself.Theinterestingthing,however,isthatjustafterthisshortcutting,theonlyfieldthatispresentinthevicinityoftheelectrolyte,thewater,isthefieldgeneratedbythedielectric.Andbecausethisdielectriclayerisverythin(afewmicrometers)youwillforsometimehaveaverystrongelectricfieldinthevicinityofthedielectric,especiallyifyouhavepolarizedthedielectricusinghighvoltagespikes/pulses,becausethepolarizationofadielectricdependsontheappliedfieldstrength,notontheappliedcurrentorsomething.

Nowyoumaysaythatthehydrogenproducedintheseolddayelectrolyticcapacitorsisjustplainoldelectrolysis,butthatwouldnotexplainwhyaglowcanbeobservedwiththesethings:BoraxorBakingSodaRectifierandtheglow.:Quote:

Asmentionedearlier,thereisafaintglowassociatedwiththeseborax(orbakingsoda)rectifiersthatcanbeobservedinadarkroom.Itseemsthatmoderatelyhighvoltagesarenecessaryinordertoproducetheglow.Theglowisproducedonthealuminumplatewhenitisatthepositive(reversebias)partofthecycleandminimumcurrentisflowing.

Whywouldthesethingsglow?Coulditbethatactuallythewaterdielectricbreaksdowncausingacoronadischargebywhichhydrogenisbeingproduced,albeitverylittle,becausefirstofallthevoltagesusedarenotthathighandsecondly,thisparticularsetupusesplatesataconsiderabledistance.InmyexperimentsIcouldnotproduceasignificantamountofgaswhenanode/cathodewereplacedatadistance,butIcouldproducehydrogeneasilyusingconcentrictubes.Iknowthisdoesnotproveanything,butitonceagaindoessuggesttheremaybemoretoitthanitseems.

GiventhatBedini's"coldboiling",i.e.H2andO2generating,batteriesarebeingfedwiththesamekindofenergy,HVspikes,andwealsohavesimilar"spontaneous"recharging,albeitwithdifferentmetalsandchemicals,Iconcludedthatwearereallylookingatthesamething:athindielectricfilmisapparantlyalsoformedinsidebatteriesandthatisapparantlyalsobeingsuperpolarized.

Bringingthistogether,Iconcludedthatthismustbethekey.Theconstructionofdielectriccapacitorsandbatteriesisverysimilar,especiallyintheolddaysandwegetsimilareffects,eventhoughhydrogenproductiondoesnotalwaysoccur.

Giventhatthewatercontainedinbatteriesisfullofionsandthe"coldboiling"effectobserved

byBediniandotherswhenthebatteriesarebeingchargedwithprettypowerfullBedinichargers,Iconcludedthatinthiscasethefieldsgeneratedbythethindielectricfilmsontheplatesisthatstrongthatsomehowelectrolysisisbeingachieved,evenafterpowerisbeingfedtothebattery.Basedonthat,Iconcludedthatthepresenceofastrongstaticelectricfieldinsidetheelectrolyteisthesolerequirementforthiskindofelectrolysistooccurandthatthathasnothingtodowithanyresonanceeffectsinthewater,asMeyersays.Imean,itjustcan'tbeifwecantrustBedini'sobservationsandIdotrustthesearerealaccurateobservations.Nowthisdoesn'tmeanthatitisimpossiblethatyoucouldalsohaveinterestingeffectsusingresonance,butifthatisthecase,ithasnothingthisparticularmechanism.

So,inmyview,itmaybemuchmoredifficulttocreatestrongpolarizeddielectricfilmswhentheanode/cathodesaresubmergedinwatercontaininglotsofions,buteventuallyallthatreallymeansitthatyouneedmoremusclestopolarizeyourdielectric,becauseyouhavetodragmoreionsaround.So,itmaytakemoreenergytoaccomplishtheeffectswewant,buttheenergyittakestofreeelectronsfromthenegativeionsinthehalfreaction,andfeedthemtotheotherhalfreactiontogetelecrolysisisexactlythesame.

So,thebadnewsisthatyouwillhavetospendconsiderablymoreefforttoseetheseeffectswithnonpurewater.Thegoodnewsisthatitisachievableanywayandwhenyousucceedincreatingselfhealingdielectricfilmsonaluminumtubesasisbeingdoneinelectrolyticcapacitorsallthetime,Iamconvincedyoucanreallygettoapointthatsuchasuperpolarizeddielectricreleasesgreatamountsofhydrogengasforwhichyouonlyhavetopaytheenergyneededtomaintainthepolarizationfield.However,eventhatenergydoesnothavetobelost,sinceyoucanreusethisenergywhen"discharging"thecapacitor,whichwillnotonlyreturnmostoftheenergy,butwillalsoenhancethedisbalanceofthefields.Thatmeansyouwillactuallygetmorehydrogen

productionifyoureusethisenergy!

AndgiventhelongtimesBedinihasreportedhisbatteriesto"coldboil"aftershuttingofthepower,Ithinkyoureallydon'thavetopaymuchintermsofenergytokeepthedielectricpolarized,especiallyifyoureuseandreapplythesameenergyoverandoveragain.

August21,2010

HMS776 SeniorMember


Imusthavemissedthat.

Lookingatnaudin'spageagainhestatesthewfcv1.0useddistilledwater.Theprocesswillstillworkwithdistilledwaterifthetubesarenotinsulated.Therequirementthenisthatthechargingcurrentmustbegreaterthantheleakagecurrent.

Orinotherwordstheresistanceacrossthecapacitormustbeseveralordersgreaterthantheimpedanceofthechargingcircuit.

August21,2010

lamare SeniorMember


Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyFarrahDay Lamare,I'munfamiliarwiththeBedinistuff,sonotabletocomment.I'veseenthatMITvideobeforeandstillfinditsomewhatverywatchable.

Basicallywhathedoesinsofarrelevanthere,istoenergizeacoilbyconnectingittoaDCpowersourceandthensuddenlydisconnecttheminusterminal,soyougetaverysteepspikeofpositive,highvoltageatthenegativeterminalofthecoil.Hefeedsthatspiketroughadiodetoeitherabatteryoracapacitor.Thenegativeterminalofbattery/capisconnectedtothepositiveterminalofthepowersupply/coil,sinceotherwiseyouwouldhavethecoilinserieswiththebattery/capyouwanttochargeduringtheperiodsyou'renotenergizingthecoil.

Bedinicallsthesespikes"radiantenergy",whichIthinkisnothingelsethantheelectricfielditself,whichcangiveveryinterestingeffectsifthespikesarepowerfullenough.Inoneofhisvideo'sheshowsheisabletolightaneonbulbbyholdingoneterminalinhishandandtouchingtheotherterminalatthe*plastic*ofthebatterythatisbeingcharged.

However,inordertoobservethis,youneedprettypowerfulcoils.Andifyouhavethese,itappearsyoucanalsogetthis"coldboiling"ofthebatteriesbeingcharged.

August21,2010

lamare SeniorMember


Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyHMS776 Ithinkitwassebosfatothatmentionedtheelectricfielddistributioninmultidielectriccapacitors

andIhavetosaythatmakesalotofsense.Thedielectric'sareresistancesinaway.Put2resistorsinserieswitheachotherandtheresistorwiththehigherresistancewillhavethegreatervoltageacrossit.ThereismorethatneedstobelookedintohereandIcouldnotfindalotofinfo....

RememberthevideowhereStansaidinorderforthetechnologytogetoutitmustbemadeinagarageenvironmentwithnoexoticmaterialsorparts.Thismeansthatwhateverdielectricheused,it mustbesomethingwidelyavailable....

Theotherthing,Ibelievethisdielectricwasbrushed,painted,ordipped.IfyouseeStanMeyersdemotubesetsandstudythepaperworkthatwaswiththemtheyalsohadaVIC...Sothesetubesmusthavealsobeencoatedwithsomething....AnditmusthavebeensomethingclearorclosetoitbecausethetubesstilllooklikeSS.

Ofcourse,wedonotnecessarilyhavetousethesamecomponentsMeyerused.WhileofcourseIcan'truleoutthepossibilitythattheremaybesomethinginthetheorythatallthisisachievedbysomekindofresonanceofthewater,Bedini'scoldboilingbatteriesclearlyshowthatitispossibletoproducehydrogeneven*after*thepowersupplyhasbeenshutoffwithoutanythingevenclosetoresonatingthewater.

Ifitiscorrectthatelectrolysisofwatercanbeachievedbyapplyingaverstrongelectricfieldcausingadielectricbreakdowneffectinthewater,whichwouldmakeitpossibleforthecurrentrequiredforelectrolysistotakeplacetoflowinthewateritself,thenallweneedtodoiscreateaverystrongelectricfieldinthewater,eventhoughthatmaybehardtodowithnormaltapwater,becausealltheionsintherehavethenastyhabbitofoppozinganyexternallyappliedelectricfield,especiallywhentwoconductionterminalplatesarethemeansbywhichyoucreatethefield.

Nowifyouwouldputaninsulatinglayerononeoftheterminalsandifindeedthedifferentlayerscanbeconsideredascapacitorsinseries,thenitisclearthatyouwouldeitherneedveryhighvoltagesorabigcapacitanceacrossthedielectriclayer.

Thatwouldmeanthatyouwouldneedaverythinlayerofdielectric.However,thatwouldmeanthedielectricwouldeasilybreakdownandyougettopayfortheleakagecurrentsgoingtroughit.So,wewouldhavetofindawaytooptimizethethicknessofthedielectriclayer,suchthatitisthinenoughtocreateabigcapacitance,butthickenoughtowithstandthevoltagesweintendtouse.

Perhapstheeasiestwaytodothat,istousealuminumforyouranodeandcreateadielectriclayerelectrolytically,asisdoneintheproductionofelectrolyticcapacitors.Whenyougrowthelayer,yousimplyapply120%ofthevoltageyouintendtouse,andthenyouafilmwithathicknessthatisaboutoptimal.

Itappearsthatconditioninganaluminumtubethatwaytobeusedasanodeinabathwithasodasolutionwoulddojustthat.So,itmaybethatMeyerusedSSandfoundahardwaytocreateadielectriclayeronthose,itseemstomewemightjustaswelltrythesamethingtheeasyway....

August21,2010

HMS776 SeniorMember


Idon'tthinktheelectricfielddistributionisgoingtobeaproblem.JustforexamplesaywecoatthetubeswithadielectricwhichHasadielectricconstantof5andweusetapwaterwithadielectricconstantof60.Wecouldusebasicmathtocalculatethetotalpercentageofeachdielectricandusethattocalculatethevoltageeachonewouldhave.

Allthatthismeansisthelowerthedielectricconstantofthedielectriccoatingthehigherthevoltagewillneedtobetogetthedesiredeffect.WithalowdielectricconstantwehavelesspolarizationwhichmeansonlypartofthevoltagewillbeappliedtothewaterTherestofthevoltageisheldbackbecauseofthepoorpolarization(lowdielectricconstant).

ThismeansreplicationcanstillbesuccessfulwithalowdielectricConstantcoating,theappliedvoltagewilljusthavetobehigher.

SowhilenaudinmayhavehadasuccessfulreplicationtheactualvoltageEffectingthewatercouldhavebeenmanytimeslowerthanthecapacitor'sVoltage.HopefullyIexplainedthatwellenoughforeveryonetounderstand.

August22,2010

HMS776 SeniorMember


AfterdoingresearchoncommondielectricmaterialsIhavehadnoluckfindinganywithahighdielectricconstant.However,Ihavefoundtherearemorethingstoconsider.........

Quote:

"Intermsofcomponentreactance,Inductorsshouldalwaysbelargerthancapacitorinordertominimizeamprestrictiontoenhance"voltageDeflection"StanMeyer,TBpage710

Thistellsusthatwemustfindamiddleground.

Thecapacitivereactancemustbesmallerthantheinductivereactanceofthechokesatresonance.Thethreethingsthateffectcapacitanceare:Areaofplates,Distancebetweenplates,andDielectricconstantofdielectric.

StanmentionedthecapacitorsizeoftheWFCcapacitorintheTechBrief.Itis3"tall.Innerelectrodeis.5"diameter.OuterelectrodeIDis.75"whichleavesagapof1/8".

Soweknowthesizeofthecapacitoranddistancebetweentheplates,theonlythingwecanchangeisthedielectricconstantofthedielectriccoating.

Ifthedielectricconstantofthecoatingistoohighourcapacitancewillbeverylarge,makingtheneedforinductorswhichalsoareverylarge.Therequirementofinductorsize,iftoolargecancauseallsortsofproblems.First,thecorewillhavetobemadelarger,andtheinductorswillhavetohavetohavemoreturns,whichmeansthevoltagewillbehigher,sogreaterstepsmustbetakentoensurecorrectisolationbetweenturns...Theaddedcapacitorandinductorsizealsoincreasesthetimeittakestochargethecapacitor.

WhatIfoundearlyonwithStanMeyerscircuitisthatyoucannothaveeverything.Youhavetogiveupsomegainsinordertogetothers.Youhavetofindamiddleground.AndIthinkthedielectriccoatingisnoexceptionhere.

Further,largedielelctricconstantmaterialsareoftenexotic.Theyareexpensiveandarenotreadilyavailable.Stansaidinordertoprotectthistechnologyithadtobemadeinagargaeenvironment,sothatmeansthecoatinghadtobesomethingcheapandreadilyavailable.

Ofthemostcommondielectricmat

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