CASE NO.: 18/75/254-.

18th AUGUST. 1976.

In the matter a£:

THE STATE .

versus

S. COOPER AND EIGHT OTHERS.

IN THE SUPREME COURT OF SOUTH AFRICA

(TRANSVAAL PROVINCIAL DIVISION)

VOLUME 140

PAGES 8529 to 8571

LUBBE RECORDINGS (PRETORIA)

- 8529 - NK 01*10.

THE COURT RESUMES AT 2 ,25 i-.H. ON THE 18th AUGUST, 1976.

NKWENKWE VINCENT HKOMO: still under oath:

FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR PITMAN: You have "before you the

final document, that is Annexure 7? — I do.

Would you comment about that document? — Well, in the

first paragraph of this document, I have written about the

emergence of Black consciousness in this country. As I say;

"There is a wave that has been sweeping

throughout AZANIA, from the late sixties ."

That is when Black consciousness in fact became the (10)

ideology of the Black people from the late I 9 6 0 's. Now, I am

just mentioning here that it started on a low scale in reality

because from my understanding of the emergence of Black

consciousness was that a few students who were then with

NUSAS and the University Christian Movement, came to realise

that Black people or the Black students rather at that time

had to form an organisation of their own and they adopted Black

consciousness as their philosophy and cornerstone. So I am

Just mentioning that really in that the first paragraph. Then

I say: (20)

"It started as a ripple that critics

and opponents gave a less than three

months existence."

Well, if I remember when I was still at St Augustines, there

were some few reports in the press, that is , let rne call them

reaction to the emergence of Black consciousness. Some of those

were insinuating that Black consciousness would not survive

because it was sort of compared tn racism or separatist

ideology. So I am just referring to that incident. Then I

go on to say: anyway, those critics have been made to ( 3 0 )

eat their words because Black consciousness is still in

existence/...

existence here and I say we must now get committed, we must

not only talk about being Black, but we must in fact live the

gospel of being Black. Veil, then I will leave the other

paragraphs because I do not think there is anything that I

would like to comment on there. And then I start from

"SAÏHS COOPER". Now here I likened the people, that is the

leaders and prominent members of the Black People's movement,

that have either been banned or some of them passed away like

Tlthuli Ka Shezi and the late Tiro. Now, I am just talking

about those people as the people to whom we must, (10)

should I say, look up as the people who really brough us to the

stage where we were. I mention Saths Cooper there. Now, I

think the influence I had, rather the experience I had in the

church tended to play a prominent role in my talk in this

because I used images of disciples, priests and bishops, when

I was drafting this, talking about these people. Now, Saths

Cooper, there I said:

"he traversed AZANIA proclaiming

the liberation of the Blacks. A

faithful disciple he was to the Black (20)

Messiah. He chose to serve Black and

suffer than serving self. Like a true

disciple he was maimed by the oppressor

but he still limps on. His crutches

are the people's pillars. His commit­

ment has not dwindled.”

So I am saying lie re that in fact he was a disciple of the Black

Messiah who did the work despite the fact that he eventually

got banned, that is crippled there was referring to a

restriction order. But I am saying his spirit is still (30)

undaunted. Then I carry on to Ranwedzi Nengwekhulu:

- 8531 - Mi OHO.

"a bloodied prophet of the Black

Messiah who predicted happenings

and accordingly gave direction to

the Black masses. His pipe, like

I10SE3' rod, was a miracle performer.

A pull and a steady puff would result

in shrewdness that threw more light

on our gospel. He has maimed him,

yes, but not his heart."

Now, well, I knew Harry Nengwekhulu who was the (10)

permanent organiser of SASO and he had a peculiar habit of

smoking his pipe. I would say that was his mark, something

you could distinguish him with. So I am just referring to that,

that in fact his pipe used to perform miracles.

What do you mean by maiming him? — I am talking about

he also got restricted. Now when I say he has, in this context

I was talking about the then Minister of Justice, the late, I

think Mr Pelser. Then the next one, v/cll , probably let me say

why I say Saths Cooper is a disciple and then I say Harry

Nengwekhulu is a prophet. When I looked at the (20)

activities of the these past people to me, those I refer to as

disciples appeared to be the people who in fact were carrying

out the mandate of the people. In other words, the people that

did the actual work. Nov/ when I refer to Harry as a bishop

there, in other words I am distinguishing him from Saths Cooper

in the sense that he was in my opinion in a higher position

where he had better control and he was in some prophetic

position, you know, he could foretell what would happen. That

is why I refer to him there as a bishop. But that is from my

observation of their activities really, as a prophet ( 3 0 )

rather. Then:

"KGALUSHI/...

- 8 532 - XuíOríO.

"KGALUSHI KOKA:" he also got restricted, he was the

secretary-general of BPC during the interim committee. I also

am almost saying the same thing really about him there. I

do not think I will have to go into details about that and I

just mention that he was a member who used to dress in Afro

shirts and I say:

"ï'rom the sleeves of his outstretched

Afro-shirt blessings would fall like

manna onto the needy Blacks.”

I am just talking about the way he goes about addressing (10)

meetings, when he flails his hands. And Sipho Buthelezi,

well, I refer to him as a 'minister who shared ungrudgingly

with his floe’:..' Well, this was also from my experience I

had contact with him for quite some time, for much in fact

until the time of his banning and restriction in that time

and herein I am quoting, you know, features that were prominent

to him. "when I say:

From his beard, actually from his

goatee oozed oil to heal the wounded.

Life was in his bearded face." (20)

He was a man that had a beard; I am just making reference to

this. And Strini Moodley, I also refer to him os a preacher

of the Black Messiah, lie is a man who carried also the

message and preached to the people.

BY THE COURT: The last sentence in Sipho Buthelezi, what

sense does that make? — Oh, here 1 am saying now as a man who

has been a minister for the Black Messiah, when he got

restricted, that is we can take it that they wanted his

activities to cease, but because Black consciousness had taken

roots, people were still coming into the movement ( 3 0 )

despite the fact that Sipho and all the other guys were banned.

In/...

tt IT'

In other words, the work that they had started, could not be

stopped. That is why I say . . (intervenes)

So you mean he brought the people in? — No, no, no, not

that people - I am just referring to the work that they started,

because their intention when they got in was the eventual

liberation of the Black people. So when they got banned, they

had not in fact achieved their goal. So what I am saying that

despite that now I am saying here:

,:They have castrated him but he

still has babies born to him d a ily .” (10)

Something . . (indistinguishable) to him, the work is still

continuing, something that would make him happy. well, here

I refer to - the next one is Strini Moodley which is accused

No. 9.

"he would stand amidst multitudes

and preach the good nev/s because

a Black preacher he was. He would

cry his lungs out, get his lookable

face curtained by his hair. Shaking

his hair would reveal a sweat riddled (20)

fact. He preached the gospel of the

Black Kingdom which is at hand. Now

he has no throat but strange he has

a voice."

Now here, that was my recollection of the incidences 1 had

met him, for instance in 1971 when I am going down to the SASO

office. He had long hair and when he sort of gets into a

phrase, when he talks then the hair starts moving into his

face. Then he would shake . . . (LAUGHTER) . . I am Just referring

to the things that he normally does here. ( 3 0 )

He cannot see. — You cannot see him, the hair comes into

his face. Now:

"MADIBENG MOKODI'l'OA: the bespectacled

Black evangelist. He would go about

preaching the eminence of Black

liberation. Unfalteringly he would

convert cast-aways to Blacks. He

would address revival meetings and

earn the listeners' respect, to us

he was an encouragement. He is buried

at Chiawele cemetry but is a ghost by (10)

day."

Now, here I was talking about Madibeng Hokoditoa who was the

vice-president of BPC at the time of his restriction. And

when I say he is buried at Chiawele, he was restricted to

Soweto and I am saying he is a gliost by day, what I am trying

to say is that anyway they have not managed to kill his spirit.

"STEVE BIKO: a prominent prophet who

foretold the might of the Black gospel

when there was hardly evidence of its

existence." (20)

Now, this revers to Steve Biko who is generally regarded as

the father of Black consciousness movement really.

"A rare prophet who led the way and

fought the enemy. He led through the

infantile stage of our gospel till they

imprisoned him in King Williams Town

maximum security prison but spirits do

communicate with him."

Still in the same verse. I arn Just changing it from this one,

using if he is in King Williams Town then I just spoke (50)

of - well, I say he is in prison in King Williams Town but

- 853U - NKOKO.

h is / . . .

- 8535 -NKOHO.

his spirit is still active.

"BOKWE MAFUNA: the disciple who was

a sore to the sight but a healing

balm to the wounds of the strugglers,''

well, this was because he was not very good-looking. That is

what I am saying there.

"a reassuring note to the hear.

There was determination in his

involvement. The poor austin mini

he drove was a hotel for Black (10)

bishops, disciples, ministers,

preachers, evangelists, servants

and deacons.”

LAUGHTER

Now here I was talking about he had an Austin Mini and most of

the time he used to have about 7 or 3 people in that small car

and, you know, other members of SASO and BPC. I am Just

referring to that.

"MTHULI SHEZI: the bespectacled Black

minister whose hair feared a comb but (20)

used to be effective antennae for Black

gospel reception and transmission."

Well, the first time I met Hthuli ka Shezi, his hair was

unkempt, I am just referring to that, his hair was just standin

- that is all 1 am referring to here.

HR PITHAN: . . (inaudible - not into the microphone). — No,

it was unkempt like binding the N.3 and 11.4.

"Like a witch-doctor he walked the

dirty streets of Azanian ghettos with

bag in hand." ( 3 0 )

He used to carry a briefcase most of the time, you knov/, with

him/...

him.

"Sure, but him they could not

destroy for here he is with us

and forever shall be ."

Well, that is just being ironical, that though he is dead,

but they really could not destroy him because he is still with

"Like a true prophet he predicted

the doom of white dominance. He fore­

told the destruction of white supremacy.

In no uncertain terms he condemned the

fascist and racist regime. His queer

manner of speech left an indellible

mark on the listener."

Well, he was a slow speaker and he used to speak very low, you

know, he had a distinct manner of speaking, that is what I am

referring to here. (20)

"They say he is a terrorist but

strange they terrorise him but never

his determination to see the Blacks

liberated."

Now here I was talking because he was eventually convicted

under the Terrorism Act, so I was saying they say he is a

terrorist but they terrorise him.

"riOSIBUDI MANGENA: he preferred to be

called fox-eyed or rather four-eyed."

Well, he was a bespectacled man also. (10)

minister shepherded liis flock when

critics and opponents were just about (30)

■ 8537 - IIKOHO.tmmmmmmmmb m m h h m

herded the flock when the leader

had deflected and the enemy was

b lissful ."

Now this refers to the time when the president of SASO Themba

Sono was suspended by the movement, that is during th at time.

If I remember very well or if I just carry on a bit:

"Unity was the theme he preached

because without it babe, we are

sunk."

Now in that, his campaigning ticket in that particular (10)

GSC, I was not there, was that we should stand united because

we were at the stage where the president of the movement had

been suspended for contradicting policy at a very crucial

stage. That is what I am referring to there.

" 0HKG0P0TSE TIRO: the bishop who

brought the evil forces to a standpoint

and forced them to reason with the Black

congregation."

There I am saying - I am referring to his speech at Turfloop

where he spoke on the unjust system of education, the (20)

Bantu education system. So I said now he forced the forces to

reason with him. In other words, the authorities had to take

heed of what he was saying about education systems.

"Humanity was his virtue. Humility earned

him respect amongst the Black masses."

Well, I had met him also and he was a down to earth man.

Just before you go on, you talk about 'evil forces'.

Say why you say they are evil. — Well, 1 think as we carry on

here, there is a portion where I specifically talk about evil.

"IIYAIIEKO PITYA1TE: a pre-natal ordained. (30)

Black evangelist who barkened unto the

call/...

■ 8538 " 13X0110.

call to change the Black destiny.

The good news he spread made sad

hearts happy. Against odds lie would

evangelize even when sneered at.

Poor soul, he is long dead and his

bones have soften, funny he still

converts the masses."

Well, this is Nyameko Pityane was . . (intervenes)

BY THE COURT: Is it finally or funny? — It should be funny.

Funny? — Funny. Now this was the secretary- (10)

general of SASO at the time of his banning. Then I also made

mention there, I say:

"The afore-gone passage cannot give

us more light without a further

mention of other dedicated and

committed servants of the Black

Messiah who amongst others are . . . "

then I have in my handwriting there:

"AUBREY IiOROAPE, LIN DEL A MABANDLA ,

HATHE DISEKO, HENRY ISAACS, WELITE , (20)

NELAPHO, DON MATTERA, FEZILE

NHLAPHO, BENJ LANGA and JOSIE

I'lERVIN."

Here I was also just enumerating other members of the Black

consciousness movement who were either restricted or banned.

The Black Messiah there, who do you refer to? — The Black

Messiah I am talking about here, 1 am talking about - let me

first give a background into this, when we talk of a

messiah, we talk of a liberator. Nov/ when I talk of the Black

Messiah, I am putting God in the context of the Messiah (30)

Jesus as being concerned with us. When I am saying the

r-' *1 . „ ̂’ - /I3Í8 C tZ/ . # #

" 8539 " NKOMO.

Black Hessiah, I am not referring to anybody who is on earth.

But I am Just referring to the Messiah as Christ, the Messiah

and I am saying the Black Messiah because he is concerned with

us and he is relevant to our situation. Then here I also

use the words "banned, imprisoned and murdered", but as it

comes out in what I have been saying here, I use the words

"blown up to pieces, bombed" and so on, you know any old how

really without strict adherence to the literal sense.

"AT THIS STAGE: It would be wise to

point out that freedom comes after (10)

liberation. You and I do not want

freedom that is, exemption from

certain strings but we want libera­

tion from the evil bondages of

racism. v.e shall liberate ourselves

and then get freedom."

There I am saying normally the concept of freedom is of people

being able to let me say do as they want to do. But this is

not the idea that in fact we convey when we talk about freedom.

In other words, we are talking about liberation, that is (20)

we must be completely dissociated with the evil situation that

is in existence. Because if I say we want freedom, one would

say O.K. you can go and stay in Pretoria if you want to go and

stay in Pretoria. So in other words, for that we have got

freedom, but when I am talking about liberation in this sense,

I mean something that is encompassing every aspect. That is

all I am talking about. And I say now liberation from the

evil bondages of racism.

"NOW: We are at a time that calls

for dedication and commitment to the ( 3 0 )

fight against evil forces from all

angles/...

- 8540 - nkchq .

angles. Let us come together as

a Black nation. We are BLACKS

because, we have seen the need to

unite and stand together for the

realisation of our aspirations,

goals and objectives. Ve have realised

that whether AFRICAN, COLOURED or

INDIAN, our enemy is one. Our enemy

is EVIL that has since relegated us

to sub-human beings. It is the EVIL (10)

that has given birth to racism that

we must fight ."

Now, I think now this explains now explains my views of evil

in this document, that I am talking about the evil that has

given birth to racism. I am not saying that the White people

or the government or anybody in particular is evil, but I am

saying it is evil that gives birth to racism and it is the evil

that we must fight.

So it is a policy not a person. — Not a person.

"LIBERTY: It is what you fight for (20)

and attain on your own Black man and

NO one will give it to you. The steps

to follow are;

SOLIDARITY IN UNITY WHERE EVERY LINK IN

THE CHAIN SHOULD BE STREN GUTENED.

BROTHERHOOD IN SOLIDARITY WHERE MUTUAL

UNDERSTANDING WILL DETERMINE THE

DIRECTION OF POWER.

POWER IN BROTHERHOOD WHERE CONCERTED

EFFORTS WILL YIELD A POWER-1ACKED (30)

OUTPUT’, CONFRONTATION IF NEED BE."

Now/ . . .

- 8541 - UKOIiO.

Now here I am talking, this paragraph as a whole, I say now

liberty is not something that you can just sit and have it

come to you, you must stand up and Tight for it , because if you

just sit . . (indistinguishable) . . but you must - you on your

own, because no one will come to you and say oh, well, have

your liberation and be free. You must stand up and demand your

freedom.

Now, it may sound childish but the words 'fight for it',

I want to question you about that because it may be contended

that you are referring to military fight. — No, I was not CIO)

- I did not have military fighting in my mind at the time of

writing this document. I was just using 'fighting' in the

figurative sense that one must stand up and do something. Now

here, 'solidarity in u n it y ' , I am here saying now we must be

united, in order for us to be able to do things and stand, up

for our rights, we must be united, stand together and

'brotherhood in so lidarity ', when we are together the spirit

of brotherhood will give us an understanding and with that we

will be able to determine the direction of how we are going to

utilise the power we have as a united block and 'power (20)

in brotherhood' there is in the . . (inaudible) . . that has

given us power, where concerted efforts will yield a power-

packed output, confrontation if need be. Nov/, what I am saying

here is once we have come to the stage where we are united

and we have this brotherly power amongst us, then we are in

a position of standing up and fighting for our rights. Now,

confrontation if need be, I am using confrontation in this

sense as a direct challenge face to face coming into actual

terms here. I was not using it to mean confrontation with

violence, I did not have this in mind when I wrote this (30)

document. What I was saying, once we stand ] ike that as

a/...

_ o c LL ? -° ° c t"t' r\rit-\iU\CU lO .

a united group, we are able to put our demands across, but at

the same time we are in a position now to confront the

superstructure if necessary. But I was not saying we must

confront the superstructure. I said if need be. Black

consciousness, I think before I move on - there was a sugges­

tion by the State that this paragraph that I have just dealt

with contains the three phases that the Reverend Hayathula

talked about in a Combi of conscientisation, confrontation,

I have forgotten the third phase. '.There is 110 such a thing.

This has got nothing to do with phases altogether. In (10)

fact, the last tivo are in fact one and. the same thing.

"BLACK CONSCIOUSNESS NEEDLESS TO SAY,

SHALL BE THE PRIMARY PHASE."

I am saying now that Black consciousness would be the founda­

tion from which we operate.

"It is an evidence of normal capacity

that the so-called "Bantustans" system

lacks all the ingredients of a successful

liberatory recipe. Instead of Black

consciousness there is bantu separate- (20)

ness, which will no doubt result in

internal feuding. They are bickering

about more land instead of striving for

POWER because land will be better utilised

by powerful people. Not even a single one

of them have power to protect the land

they want because there is not even a

single soldier in all the "Bantustans"

combined, ’weak people have no enery to

till and work the land." ( 3 0 )

Veil I must point out here that after the time of writing

t j i i s /.. .

ÍÊÊÊÊÊÊIÊÊÊÊÊÊÊIÊÊÊKÊÊÊÊÊÊÊKtÊÊÊÊKÊÊKÊÊÊÊÊKKÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊKÊSÊKÊÊÊÊÊ̂

this, there has "been a change. I have read in the newspapers

that in fact the Transkei has got soldiers now, hut at the

time of writing, there were no soldiers in the ïranskei. I am

not trying to say whether they are efficient because they are

still riding horses. (LAUGHTER) How, what I v/as saying here

was that Black consciousness is the main ideology because the

Bantustan system will never lead us to liberation because it

hasn't got what it takes to take us there. líow, I say here,

I am just taking a swipe at the Bantustan leaders here and I

am saying well, they are asking for more land, but there (10)

is nothing they will do with that land because they haven't got

the power to utilise that land, they have got no energy. So

what will they do? The land they are asking for will just

lay waste. In fact, I was very mild in my criticism of the

Bantustans here.

BY THE COURT: 'Why do you foresee internal feuding for the

Black separateness? — What I had- in mind when I was talking

about this, I think it will come out clear. I think it will

come out in this paragraph.

"How can the bantu leaders preach (20)

Black brotherhood, and. tribalism at

the same time? They are bent on

spreading tribalism which has proved

dangerous by splitting further into

clans that engage in inter-clan warfare

as evidenced by the Ilsinga faction

fights."

I think that explains my thinking along those lines.

What do you say about the Msinga faction fights? — I am

saying now this idea of the tribalising - rather of ($0)

separating the people into different tribes is dangerous becaus

we are striving for unity. Nov/ if we allow ourselves to be

divided into tribes when we have been divided into tribes, we

will still be further divided into smaller clans, that is the

Ushutu clan, the Msinga clan, all those kinds of clans.

But what do you say why do they fight? — The Msinga one?

The clans, why do you say the clans fight? — We 11, I

am talking about the Msinga one in particular because when I

was in Zululand I h ad opportunity to meet people who came

from that area. Now, they had a chief, I just forgot, he is

Ngomezulu or something or either he was on the opposing (10)

side, but there was a chief. Ngomezulu who wanted people of

the other group, that is all the people to ..(machine faulty -

an interfering noise every two or three words) . . you know

these sort of tribal courts, something of that nature. To pay,

I do not know what was the money that they were supposed to

pay and then the other group said they are not going to listen

to him because in fact he was not their chief and their chief

was the man who was not chief at that time; the government

had appointed that man as chief. So they said they v/e re not

going to owe allegiance to him. Now, then it carried (20)

on and then, according to the ..(inaudible) in Johannesburg,

I think there was - the battles kept on coming even in Johannes­

burg, those that were working in Johannesburg, migratory labour,

they used to fight even in Johannesburg. Now what I am saying

is that this is a thing that v/e do not want to have. V/e do

not want to have tribes which will in turn have clans. The

Nkomo clan must now fight against the Hyeza clan. V/e v/ant

everybody to be together and united as a common ..(intervenes)

Why should they necessarily fight if they are in clans?

— Well, I think the question - the answer to that (30)

question is that when people, for instance, if I may use myself

aS

" 8545 " KKOÍ-IO.

as an example. I turn to look at the people closest to me a

my people and then the next man I come to regard him as a

stranger. Now this is what we are trying to avoid, people

regarding each other as strangers in South Africa. We must all

regard each other as brothers because now if you look a bit

in the history of the Zulu tribe itself, you will find that

from the times of Mpande the clans were involved in warfare

because one group supported Mpande to be chief and the other

group wanted ^uranj)?) to be king and it carries on to

^thswayb until I think probably the times of King . . ( ? ) (10)

But during that period we find that the history is riddled

with such clan wars, inter-clan wars. Now I am saying that

it is not in our interest to go back to that kind of living.

Our interest now is to stand united as one nation in South

Africa.

HR PITMAN: Is there any example in the Transkei and the Ciskei

or not? — Well, I am not very much conversant with the

situation there really. I would not like to commit myself there

Now I say:

"For as long as the bantu leaders (20)

are boys and puppets of this evil

system they cannot confront their

'baas' because they will lose bene­

fits such as cars and fat salaries

(since they will have proved, to be

'cheeky' bad boys)."

Now here I am saying for as long as the Bantustan leaders

subscribe to this idea, they will not be in a position of

standing up and condemning the Bantustan idea because that

would mean Chief Gatsha Buthelezi will lose the Mercedes (30)

or he may even end up in Jail for that matter. So what I am

say in g / . . .

- 8 5 4 6 - ITKOIIO.

saying, they are not genuine in what they are doing.

"They sell the ignorant Black masses

so that they can he made tools for use

in the mines.”

Now here I was taking a swipe at the migratory labour too,

because most of the people that work there come from the

Bantustans. What I had in mind here was that instead of these

Bantustans being places that are economically viable, they

are being used as labour reservoirs, they are not being

developed in any way and the people must belong to the (10)

Bantustan, but they must go and work in the cities and that

has proved to be discouraging to family l ife , th e migratory

labour system.

BY THE COURT: Have you any objection to their working in the

mines? — I have no objection to anyone working in the mines,

but I am objecting to the whole system that brings them into

the mines without adequate provision.

HR PITTLAN: Provision for? — I mean that is why, if there

were mines also in the places that they come from, adequately -

I mean every place must be developed for the people to be (20)

able to live, but these other places are not developed, but

people must necessarily go and work in the mines. That is what

I am saying is the migratory - and when they come to work in

the mines, they leave their families behind and they stay in

hostels.

BY THE COURT; What do you feel about the Portuguese Black men

who work here in the mines and the Lesotho Black men who work

here in the mines? — Well, I would say ray idea of that is that

migratory labour, itself, the system, is destructive to family

l ife . ( 3 0 )

What should they co? I mean, they have famine in those

countries/.. .

- ■ ITKOMO.

countries, so what must they do? — I get the Court's point

that the famine - well, the countries, let us say, are not

as developed as South Africa is and well, I still think even

when they are here, since the South African government or the

mining . . (intervenes)

Must they bring their wives along, you say? — That is what

I am coming to. Seeing that the mining industry needs them,

I think they must see to it that they are adequately provided

for.

So they can come here? — They can come here, but (10)

so long as it does not involve destruction of family life and

all the hardships that go with. it . I am not against people

working in the mines.

Where would one put up their wives? I think there are

250 000 from - is it from Malawi or some country, working here

in the mines. Must they bring their wives along? — Well, I

think the mining industry is one of the richest industries.

What do you think where should one put them up? — Well,

I do not know where one should put them up, but all I am saying

that they should be adequately provided for. Everyone (20)

should be adequately provided for.

You say they should be adequately provided, for. I ask

you how do you adequately provide for them? — Well, if I may

just say this that I have noticed that the Whites who come from

Italy, from all over the place as immigrants into South

Africa and the townships that sprawl all over the - for

instance in Benoni, in Springs, I know there are townships that

are planned for such people and I do not see why, if we really

need people to come and work in the mines, we could not do that

when we can in fact be in a position to do that for people (yO)

who come from outside the country.

Don1t / . . .

Don't they buy their own homes if they come here and

settle here, the immigrants? — In the same sense that we should

also allow these other people when they want to buy their houses,

to buy their houses and settle.

Do you think they will be able to afford that? — Well,

I think so.

On the salary that they get in the mines? — I think so.

Do you know what they get? — I do not 1-mow how much they

get.

So why do you think they can afford it? — Well, (10)

I do not think there is anybody who cannot afford to buy a

house when houses are available, I do not think.

How do they become available, these houses? — Well, by

being built, that is what I am saying.

Who builds them? — Well, there is the local town council

is responsible, the town council must build the houses. Who­

ever is responsible for housing must build houses.

Don't you think one needs money for that? — I think there

is a lot of money. I have been paying tax for about 4 years.

(LAUGHTER). I think there is a lot of money. (20)

What is the sum total of the tax that you have paid over

the four years? — Something like about R5.

Do you want to build a house for that? — If I pay R5

and you have about 20 million Black people paying R5.

Then you want 20 million houses. — Over 5 years it is

100 million.

And how many houses do you build for that? — Well, I

think you can provide quite adequately or even flats , not

necessarily houses that cost money, even flats.

30 million? — I think if I can get that money, I (30)

can develop a whole township. (LAUGHTER)

■ 8549 ■ NKOMO.

Yes? — Witness reads:

"Summit talks are held, from which

the Black masses gain nothing.

Bantustan leaders are traitors to the

Black cause of the just struggle for

LIBERATION."

Now here I refer to the summit talks that the homeland leaders

had with the prime minister. They promised to look into the

question of lease that is house lease for the urban Blacks,

but nothing was done out of it . In fact they had a big (10)

memorandum that they presented to the prime minister, but

nothing eventually came out of it, except that Chief Gatsha

Buthelezi said something to the effect that the prime minister

does not want to play ball and he might be forced to resort

to . . (inaudible) . . disobedience. But there was nothing that

was gained out of those summit talks. That is what I am

saying here.

In the early sixties Black leaders

(NOW BANISHED, IMPRISONED, EXILED and

BANNED) made their stand known and were (20)

set to liberate the Black man. Those

leaders are none other than Nelson

Mandela, the Black prince of Azania who

fought for your liberation and mine."

Now here I am talking about Mr Nelson Mandela who was in the

leadership of the now banned African National Congress. So I

am saying he is a man who was committed to the fight for

liberation. I do not think I am eulogising him in any way

here, except that putting across what he did.

"It sores his heart to see traitors (30)

tl

leading the Black masses to destruction I!

Now/...

ooou mi o h o .

Now here as I made mention earlier here, I am talking about the

Bantustan leaders that in fact such an idea for a man who has

been suffering for the unification of the people in South

Africa must really be painful to him.

"it chokes him to see his beloved

country divided into bantus in stans

when the whole of Azania is the Black

man's home. It hurts him to see bantu

leaders befriending the enemy. How

painful it is to see your brother (10)

eating from the hand of your enemy.

A photograph of a bantu next and along­

side the Black son of Azania, Manga1ise

Sobukwe, did the Black son more harm

because he was linked with a collabo­

rator of his enemy."

There I am talking about the incident where Chief Gatsha

Buthelezi was photographed together with Mr Robert Mangaalise

Sobukwe when his orders were relaxed for him to come up to

Johannesburg. Now, I am saying a man of Hr Sobukwe' s (20)

standing who stood for the total liberation of the people in

this country and one other thing that I had in mind this time

was that you could not be quoted by the press, incidentally,

you could not be quoted by the press, so Gatsha had a field day

after that phootgraph, he could say anything about him and Hr

Sobukwe could not reply because he was banned and the press

could not quote him. Now I say that kind of situation really

did him harm where he was put in the position where the world

is told now here is a friend of Mr Sobukwe, Gatsha Buthelezi,

they are meeting in Johannesburg, they are shaking ( 3 0 )

hands and he, Sobukwe, is not in a position of saying: listen,

m an /.. .

■ »551 - IIK.OMO.

man, he is not my friend.

"Mangaliso Sobukwe fought for the -

liberation of the Black people and he

did not fight for the recognition of

the Zulu tribal group.”

Which is what Gatsha is doing.

"He stood f<?r Black right and dignity.

/re we going to be party to the murder

of these Black sons who fought for us

by toeing the Bantustan line?? May, (10)

never. Ours is a just struggle for

Black emancipation. Our goal shall

be realised only in SOLIDARITY.

Woe unto a Black man who seeks not his

liberty - like an infant in a house

aflamed he is. When the tongues of

fire lick his skin then shall he know

the folly of his dreams."

Now here I am saying that to those people that do not want to

be with the people that seek their liberation, it is a (20)

shame unto them because by the time they realise in fact that

they should have stood up for their human dignity, it is at

the time when they will not be able to do anything about the

situation if they do not stand up now and demand recognition

and human d^iity. At a later stage they might not be in a

position of doing so, it might be too late.

Just before you go on. You were asked certain questions

about the migrant labour of Black foreigners who were not

entitled to bring their families to work on the mines. Do

you in any event make any distinction between Black (30)

foreigners and Black South African citizens? In regard to

migrant/...

migrant labour. — No, as I said to the Court that in fact tlB

whole system of migratory labour should be, shall I say

normalised, not necessarily for people who come from the

Bantustan, I mean, within the bounds of South Africa, but in

general.

BY THE COUNT; I saw one of the exhibits, I do not remember

which, but it was not a good thing to have these foreign

workers here because they keep locals out of employment and

they put the mines in the position that they are quite

independent, they get their labour, they are not (10)

dependent on the local market for labour. I mean I am just

putting the effect of it very broadly. — Now, what I can say

on that point is that in fact I haven't had much dealings with

the people who control, that is miners, that is people who

control the mining industry per se , but I have had chats

with one or two people who worked in the mines and I realise

that from the way people live because they say they get

rations and they can take things from certain shops without

paying and they say they are paid very little wages, although

I did not manage to establish exactly how much. Now what (20)

I am saying here, as I said earlier on in my evidence-in-chief

that we find this situation where the people, let me in this

case say people from urban areas who grow up in urban areas.

Now for a man who grows up in an urban area, R15, R12 a week is

not sufficient. Now, if he thinks of going to work at the

mine, if the mines pay RA-0 something as I heard one of the

accused say here that this fellow was paid R4-5 and if the mine

pays R4-5 irrespective of the legal benefits that are attached to

that, surely a man of the urban areas will not want to go and

work there because that money would not be sufficient, (3°)

it will not suffice for his needs. ITov/ I would say that that is

■ ■ m:orio.

where the migratory labour is being taken advantage of because

they come here to work and there is nothing else they can do

. . (intervenes)

They keep wages down? — They keep wages down. Now, I

would go along with that argument in the sense that these

people are insecure in the first place, these migratory

labourers, they are not secure where they are. So it is so

difficult for them to stand up and say this is not a living

wage, we demand so much per month. So they are put in that

position. Whereas people who are in the urban areas (10)

would be in a position of saying we do not accept such low

wages. I go along with that kind of argument, to that extent.

If the foreign worker comes in, the company will say

well, if you do not want to work for the salary, you need not

work. — Well, knowing that the man in fact is in need of

money and they go further on to prevent them from belonging to

trade unions for effective bargaining. The whole system itself

is quite unjust because these people have got no way of

alleviating their situation, they must just accept what has

been given to them because they cannot come here, (20)

probably they have been given a free ticket from Lesotho or

wherever they come from by the recruiting agent there and when

he comes there he is given a single ticket to work for two

years or how many years and then he is given another ticket at

the end of this. So the man cannot come all the way from

Lesotho and when he comes here they say R45 a month, he says I

am not taking R45. How is he going to go back to Lesotho.

So he finds himself in a position where he must just accept

what is being given.

MR PITMAN: Finally on that document, is there anything (30)

which you think would endanger maintenance of lav; and order

i n / . . .

_ 0DD4 " I1K0M0.

in that document? — No, nothing.

Is there anything that even might? — No, nothing might.

In fact on that particular document, the particular charge

alleged, you have "been found not guilty, in regard to the

. . (inaudible). Nov;, would you deal very briefly with the

question of - I am going back, there is something you have to

answer - why you joined the BPC? — As I indicated to this

Court earlier on, some of my personal experience as a Black

student and a youth in this country, that is starting from my

time at primary school, the bob job incident, until the (10)

present day. Now, the more I became exposed to the racist

superstructure in this country, the more my perception became

acute of the situation as it existed and I thought that there

was a necessity for me to do something to alleviate the posi­

tion. Now, th e first thing that came to my mind then as I

indicated in this court earlier on, was the church. But when I

got into the church, my ministers told me not to talk about

politics and I realised in fact that the church was actively

consorting with the evil of discrimination and the evil of

apartheid instead of providing the solution as Christians (20)

and with the promise that with God nothing is impossible. So

I lost confidence in the church as an effective means. I

looked around me. There was the education and when I looked

at people who were educated, doctors, lawyers, they appeared

to me as nonconformists, rather as conformists with the situa­

tion, they did nothing to better the lot of the Black people.

They stayed with us in the location, but they seemed to turn

a blind eye to what was happening.

They became educated robots. — They became educated

robots. So I looked at the whole thing and I thought (30)

what is the point of having education if this education is

not/...

" 0030 • I IK OHO.

not going to help you and help your people eventually. Veil, I

had personally been stopped from pursuing a certain course in

education that I wanted to pursue, that was B.Sc. Computer

Engineering. So the next thing I looked at the Bantustans.

The Government had said they created — rather urban bantu

councils. The government said look, we gave you advisory

bodies whom you can make use of. When I looked at the urban

Bantu councils I discovered that in fact they only councilled

urban Bantus but they did not voice the wishes of the people.

Here I have in mind when the people asked for tarred (10)

roads in the townships, they asked for street lights and

recreational facilities . Those things would not be done, but

whenever the town council wanted rents increased or wanted to

increase the bus fares, the members of the UBC would convene

meetings and ask the people to cooperate with the town council,

but whereas at the same time the streets are still muddy and

dusty, nothing has been done about the streets. So I looked

at the position, I saw in fact the Urban Bantu Council was not a

viable platform to anything. They were merely taking orders

from above and bringing them to the people, but they (20)

never took anything from the people because we had never seen

anything that the people asked to happen.

They never took anything from the people to? — To the

authorities. Or if they did, they were not listened to. Well,

I was left with the Bantustans. Well, when I interrogated and

investigated the concepts of Bantustans, not at Compol, and I

found that the concept was highly misleading and fraudulent,

because in the first place I looked at the leaders of the

Bantustans and it occurred to me that in fact these people

were not leaders by the mandate of the people concerned, ( 3 0 )

they had been elected in fact, they had been selected by

t h e / . . .

the government.

You used th e word elected first. Were they elected or

not elected? — No, they were not elected. Now I looked at

that situation and to my mind it came in fact a speech of the

Honourable late Dr H .F . Verwoerd, one of the greatest statesmen

you have ever had in South Africa. What he had to say about

the Bantustans in 1951 on the 1st May. I will not be able to

quote his exact words but I will try and approximate exactly.

He said: now a senator wants to know whether the series of

self-governing areas would be sovereign. ïhe answer is (10)

obvious. There are native areas all over the place in South

Africa like in Pietersburg for example, there is Zululand.

There are such areas everywhere in the heart of South Africa.

It stands to reason that White South Africa must remain their

guardian. V/e are sending the moneys for those developments,

we are allowing the natives to develop. Their place would be

economically and otherwise dependent on the Union. He went

further on to say when we say that the protectorates must be

incorporated in South Africa . . (intervenes)

MR REES: If he is quoting from a written speech, I (20)

submit that this should be produced, otherwise it is secondary

evidence.

BY THE CQUffl1: Well, it is not evidence to further his case,

he is motivating something.

MR REES: Then I submit . . . (intervenes - both sj^eaking

simultaneously)

BY THE COURT: . . . . hear what he has to say, probably he is

coming to his point. Yes? — So he says when v/e talk of the

protectorates being incorporated in South Africa, we do not

intend by that to mean that we want to cut large slices ( 3 0 )

out of South Africa and turn them into independent states and

somewhere/.. .

- 8557 - KKOIiO.

somewhere in his speech he even asked the question as to how

can scattered states arise. How, I looked at what other . . .

(intervenes)

HR PITMAIT: Just stop there. Do you have anywhere, as a matter

of interest, do you have a copy of what he said, available to

you in the prison or now? — I do not know, because some of

the books we had have not been returned since they were taken.

Did you have available to you? — There was.

This particular speech was available to you in the prison?

— It was available. (10)

You had it in the prison? — I had it in the prison.

How long ago? — Well, I asked for this specifically

I think some time last year.

I mean up till when did you have it? When do you last

know - when do you know that you last had it? — Well, I did

not check but when I realised that the documents had been taken

last Monday when we were searched, that was gone, but I had

not checked it before then but I knew I had it.

What was it? A book or just the speech? — It was a

photostat, I do not know whether it was taken from a book (20)

or a speech, it was just a photostat.

You say it was on the 1st May, 1951. Do you know by anyr

chance where it was made? — Veil, I think it was made in

parliament.

Was it 1951 or 1961? — I may not be too certain about

the date, but I am thinking it was 1951.

Anyway, you say that you had a photostat copy.. — I had

a photostat copy - in fact what happened is when the case was

in progress during that time and when the witnesses were being

cross-examined, I wanted to use that document because I (30)

knew about that.

was/. . .

- 8 558 - mono.

Was it actually a portion of Hansard of what he said in

parliament? — Well, the photostat it did not . . (intervenes)

BY TliE COURT: /re you referring to his statement on

separate development that me made in parliament? — I think it

was in parliament but I am not too certain becausc it was just

a photostat copy, the quotation as it stands and I think also

there was another one on education that was photostated, also.

HR riTHAIT; Let me just ask you this. Did you in fact copy

it out? — I did copy it out.

In your own handwriting and put it in quotes? — I (10)

did.

And put it in your own statement for Counsel? — I did.

BY THE COURT: You wanted to follow up on that. You sa;y your

thinking is? — When I looked at the attitude of the govern­

ment that is in relation to this speech, I could not find

any cabinet minister or government official who in fact came

out against those words and said that in fact we intend to

make the Bantustans truly independent, in the true sense of

the word independent. That is now in fact up to the present

moment. I hear there are rumours about Transkei becoming (20)

independent, but the facts that I am getting from the papers

are proof enough that in fact the Transkei can never bebeing

independent because it is /st ill legislated too by the Couth

African government on the question of the citizenship even,

the South African government is telling them that you ore

going to do this, every Xhoza or every Xhoza-speaking person

is a citizen of the Transkei, but the Transkei says no, we are

not going to do it, after two weeks Matanzima says well, we

are depriving the people of South Africa their citizenship,

there is nothing I can do about that. How in other words, (30)

even at this stage when we are told that the Transkei is

g o in g / . . .

" 8559 - IlKOIIO.

going to be truly independent, the first that we see, say

Transkei is not going to be independent in any way. So when

I looked at this whole idea, I realised that inihct the Bantu­

stans system lacks everything of being a truly independent

thing because I could not imagine myself that the government in

South Africa was really interested in creating these states

which might in the later and tend to be hostile to the Republic

of South Africa. I could not imagine that in fact the White

government which 1 always believed is sane in creating, could

ever create these things which would in the old end turn (10)

monsters, because in the first place we know that Kwa Zulu

in fact it has got no minerals, it has got very little riches,

the whole of Kwa Zulu has got very little riches.

HR PIIHAIT: It is rich in boundaries anyway. — But it is not

something that people can live on and we know that the so-called

urban areas that Johannesburg, the Reef, we find gold and

places like Newcastle where there is coal, those places are

not in Kwa Zulu. We find Pietersburg which happens to be an

improved place is not part of Leboa. The Eshowe farms with the

wealthy parts in Zululand, Eshowe with its farms, is not (20)

part of Kwa Zulu. So now in reality if one would look at

these things, if these people are giving independence surely

they need to live, they need gold in South Africa, they must

find means and ways of getting the gold arid as I know Black

people we believe that South Africa, the whole of South Africa

is our country also. Kow what would stop those people if they

are truly independent from engaging other external forces

of their own choosing to come and demand the gold that is in

South Africa. I mean I could not really think that that was

a genuine idea. So, but I felt that anyway I must do (30)

something myself, I must do something to right the wrongs that

I/...

P R

- 8550 - 1IKOI iO .

I see in our society, that is . . (intervenes)

You were saying that all that was - you put forward the

argument that you did not believe it was such a genuine idea.

— That is right.

Are you saying that because you did not believe it to be

genuine that you turned to something else? — That is right.

What I am saying is that I looked at all these factors that were

given but I felt they were not being useful. So I had to

satisfy myself that if now T must go and campaign for the

UBG, I had to be satisfied to say that in fact the UBC (10)

was something that was of use to the people, but I was not

satisfied about that, but I felt that something had to be done

on behalf of the Black people and then the Black People's

Convention came into the picture and what they said to me was

something that I had been saying myself before their emergence.

In other words, the only thing that the Black People's

Convention came to me was that we must stand united because

divided v/e shall fall . So after satisfying myself that in fact

even the Black People's Convention stood for the noble call 01

fighting injustice and normalising the situation in (20)

South Africa, I should be satisfied that the Black I

Convention would not in the eventuality lend to the destruction

of my country, the South Africa I love, 1 was satisfied that

the Black People's Convention was in fact a viable vehicle to

the liberation of the Black people because it cane wiih a

message of hope. I realised, it gave me hope as I made mention

earlier in this court that in my seconder;. school dayr> I used

to be one of the dictators and we used to say men, we must just

fight because we did nob see any hope, Ihere was nothing. But

when the Black People's Convention came, I realised that (30)

now here is a channel, this is something that we must make use

o f / . . .

oole' s

- 8561 - me OHO.

of and I satisfied myself that well, I am joining the Black

People's Convention.

Are you saying that it was in fact an alternative to just

fighting? — Well, it was an alternative to any other tiling

that I could have done myself in particular.

Yes? — Now it gave me hope, "but because the phenomenon of

hope is incomplete without an incorporated act of faith, I

joined the Black People's Convention as an act of faith in

the movement.

How long was it before you actually joined BPC? — I (10)

first heard of BPC in 1972, that was about August or September.

In fact I did not join then although I had quite a number of

talks with Mosibudi Mangena and other BPC members that I

mentioned in this court and SASO people, I did not join until

in March, 1973. During the period I had to wait, that is the

advantages of coming into BPC, to satisfy myself that going

into BPC would be beneficial and. at the same time look at the

other things that might happen if I go into BPC and eventually

I was satisfied that BPC presented the best solution to the

problem. That is why in 1973 I joined when the (20)

Daveyton branch was formed and I was elected its chairman.

But I did not contact with BPC for quite a long time and also

I had met SASO in 1971, hut as I have indicated, I was not very

much satisfied with SASO because it seemed to lay stress on

education as it were.

You then joined BPC. We got to that stage. would you

now tell His Lordship what you found Bi C to be? Whether you

found it in fact to be a conspiracy to armed revolution as the

State contends or wheter you found it to be something else?

— Well, I found. BPC to be an organisation of men and (30)

women of good will who had the best interests for South Africa

/f l ̂ / • • •

_ 8 5 6 2 " N K 0 P1 0 .

at heart. I found BPC to be a movement that came to this

nation with a high sense of truth. I found the Black People's

Convention to be a movement that brought love, radical love

that is akin to the cross, to this nation. I found BPC in

fact to be a movement that has the solution and remedy to the

present society that we live in.

V/ill you have a look at the BPC constitution? BPC B.2

was the exhibit. Is that the constitution that you saw? — I

do not remember seeing this particular copy of the constitution,

Vas it similar? — Yes, a similar copy with the (10)

BPC motive on top.

The wording in other words was similar. — P'he wording

and 'Breaking the Chains'.

Nov/ the State says that that document constitutes a threat

of revolution by unconstitutional or violent means. — In the

first place just to give the Court some background. V.hen I

joined BPC, in fact before I joined BPC I looked at the BPC

constitution and when I joined BPC, v/hen I went to the head

office I was given a cop;/ of the constitution, I was given a

membership card and I was given minutes of the first (20)

national, congress and commissions reports. P'hesc were the

documents that were made available to me as chairman of the

Daveyton branch and I had a look at all these documents and

from what I studied, that is from the constitution and the

commissions reports that I came across, nothing new really

struck me at that time, that is something I could really say

v/as out of the ordinary, but the impression i formed was that

BPC v/as in fact a community-based political, pressure group;

that v/as the impression I formed. It v/as a movement that

intended to pressurise the government in one means or ( 5 0 )

the other as it v/as indicated, in the various documents that I

r e a d / . . .

!!

- 8 563 - Nil OHO.

read. The only part that I think is of relevance, although I

have already mentioned this point earlier on, would be

Section 2 , that is the principle and aims of the Black i’eople's

Convention and since my association with BPC I have never found

BPC to have done or never heard of BPC to have done anything

that was contrary to the stated aims and principles in the

constitution and Section 3 I have already mentioned to the

Court, that is operation outside government-created systems.the Court

Now, if I can refer/to the last page of the document,

'interpretation of clauses', 5 there says: ( 1 0 )

Unless inconsistent with the contcxt,

RESIDENT shall mean an;/ Black person

who has intentionally decided to reside

in South Africa permanently."

Now there was a suggestion in this court that in fact I think

Bokwe liafuna and Sipho Buthelezi that they were members of

BPC and they v/e re transacting business on behalf of BPC in

Botswana. Now, BPC has no members who are not resident in

South Africa. To be a member of BPC you have to be resident

in South Africa. In other words, if I leave South Africa (20)

today, I do not belong to the Block People's Convention any

more.

The membership card is it relevant to BPC? — I think it is

relevant because that is where the formulation of the movement

is . Every member is made to take that declaration and I think

it is of vital importance because there is the foundation on

which a member of BPC starts.

Yes, but now you say the foundation of BfC is in those7 KJ

documents? — That is correct.

Now, but you see the State case is that that is all (30)

a bluff, that is all a facade, the constitution and the

ricmbershir>/...

V

\

* 1’ •

- 8564 - iixoho.

membership cards and so on; that the real case of the State is

that there was an underground conspiracy different from the aim.'

of the constitution, different from all the aims you put out.

That your underground conspiracy was that you were fomenting,

you were planning, you were conspiring armed revolution in

South Africa. ’What do you say to that? — In the first place

I must say that that is not true that we were conspiring for

an armed revolution in South Africa. Also I must point out

that what stands here, I remember is when the witness Harry

Singh said that some of the things are not noted down (10)

but it surprises mo in fact to find that the people who are

supposed to know the aims and principles that are not written

down, have not come to light, the State has not brought

anyone who knows the secret aims of BIG to come and say so and.

they have not been able to find anyone who knows the secret

aims of BPC to come and say so. All the people that have come

here, even the State witnesses they have first talked about

what is here, what is in front of the Court and. for everybody

to see. Now . . (intervenes)

HR REES: My Learned uriend can put up this argument (20)

himself. This is argument and not fact.

HR PITMAN: This is one of the national executive members of

BPC. I am asking him what ho comments ^n the fact that the

national executive - I am going to put some more to him, more

of the State case in regard, to supreme command running the

organisation, not the executive and. so o n . . . (intervenes)

HR REES: The question of his comment here . . . (intervenes-

both speaking simultaneously)

HR PITMAN: . . . may I just finish before . . .

HR REES: . . . led or not led, that is whet I am putting (30)

in issue here. That is not for him to comment on. lie can give

t h e / . . .

- 856 5 - intOKO.

the Court the facts and his interpretation of it , but not

on the adequacy or otherwise of the evidence led. That I

submit my Learned Friend himself should address in argument to

Your Lordship.

HR PITP1AIT: Hay 1 address Your Lordship without interruption

from my Learned Friend?

BY THE COURT: Yes, well, he is clarifying his objection to

you. His objection is that this witness is now commenting on

the case and nothing to do with the document.

HR PITHAII; I would like him please to ask me if he (10)

wishes to interrupt me and if he does not ask me, then he does

not interrupt me, with respect. If a man . . (inaudible)

discourtesy so much. I would, like to answer my Learned Friend.

I am asking for this witness to tell the Court what his

comments are on the conspiracy that is alleged against him. I

am putting to him what the conspiracy is, I am putting the first

part of the conspiracy which is in several alternatives. I

submit with respect . . (intervenes)

BY THE COURT; You cannot ask him to debate the case for you.

I will not allow that. (20)

HR PITHAII: Does Your Lorcship disallow it then?

BY THE COURT: Yes. I want no debate from this witness. You

can present whatever debate you want on the case.

HR PIIHAIT: I am not talking about debate, I am talking about

the question I put to the witness.

BY THE COURT: Well, the answer he was giving, was debating the

case and that was v/hat Hr Rees was objecting to.

HR PITHAII: Does Your Lordship allow me to put further questions'.

BY THE COURT: You can put questions to him but you cannot ask

him to debate your case for you. ( 3 0 )

HR PITHAII: IIov/, it is further alleged against you that you

consoired/.. .

conspired with underground con:'p i ivicy, i t doer» not appear in

the constitution or the membership card. It is alleged against

you that you conspired to stir up racial hostility in South

Africa. What do you say to that? — That is not true. In fact

BPC was intent on normalising the situation in South Africa.

It is further alleged against you that you conspired with

others to commit acts which do not appear in the constitution,

but that you conspired to commit acts to bring about revolu­

tionary change by unconstitutional means. What do you say to

that? — I still give the same answer that I reject that (10)

allegation and also as I pointed out earlier on that I have not

really come to understand unconstitutional as the State alleges

Further the State case against you is that there was a

supreme command which was composed of people who were not the

same people as the national executive who in fact really took

the decisions in BPC. What do you say to that? — That is not

true. A supreme command did not exist. The national executive

executed the duties 011 behalf of the national congress and the

national council acted as an advisory body and congress as a

final commission mating body. There was no other body (20)

other than those three.

Do you know about any kind of supreme command? — No.

Did you know of any other people who had control over BIC?

— No one else had control over BIC other than the three bodies

that I have made mention of.

Did BPC practice racism? — No, BPC did not practice

racism because we believe in theequality of mankind and we

believe in brotherly love.

One of' the elements of the charge also is that you intende

to endanger the maintenance of law and order in South ( 3 0 )

Africa. What do you say to that? — We had no intention

o f / . . .

" 8567 " I IK OHO.

of endangering the maintenance of lav/ and order. As I pointed

out earlier, to the Court, that in fact we have been law-abidin-

If I may say that the lav/ does not prohibit Black people from

coming together to seek the realisation of their human dignity.

How we will go back to an incident which we have not

discussed in your evidence yet, that is the SEHICOH at

Hammanskraal. How, I think there has been evidence that the

national council session was held at that time. V.’hen v/as that?

— I forgot the exact date, but it was in August.

Of which year? — Of 1974. At Hammanskraal. (10)

hid you go to the national council meeting there? — Yes,

I attended the national council meeting in my capacity as

national organiser, but as I pointed, out to the Court, I could

not be in a position of staying throughout the session because

I had. to move out time and again to see to the running of the

whole conference.

And I think that you said, you were not there for the whole

period of the proceedings in regard to Hr Kehlo Hakhulu. —

Yes, I would, say at the start when he v/as called in, I v/as

there and the duty was given to me to outline the (2 0 )

procedure, that is policy and violation ol. policy. 1 outlined

- I was still there when I outlined the steps that arc taken

when a person has violated policy and all that, but when v/e

got into the crux of the matter, I had to leave.

BY THE COURT: Haven't v/e dealt with this aspect already?

With the SEMICON at Hammanskraal.

HR riTHAH: Ho, II'Lord, just with part of it, I understand.

V/e have dealt with the document which related to that, but

there are other matters that v/e have not dealt with. And then

there v/as the question which 1 think mention has been ( 3 0 )

made of, of the suspension of accused Ho. 8. — That is correct

Accused/.. .

- 8568 -:n;orio.

Accused No. 8 was suspended for violating the financial policv

of the movement. I think Ilarry Singh said that he was suspended

for being an informer or something to that effect. That is not

true. He was suspended for violating the financial policy of

the movement. Although the people from Durban had this thing

with them that he was a security risk, but that was not why he

was suspended, because they did not - they could not say

anything about his being a security risk, except saying that

he got a few claps and I do not remember whether he said

everything - he wrote everything, whatever the accusation ( 1 0 )

vras, but that was not the crux of his suspension.

Who moved for his suspension? — Well, theoretically I

moved for his suspension because I wrote down the motion for

his suspension. Then I passed it on, but I had not written

my name on the part of the mover, so I passed it on for the

people to read before I put the notice on the motion and then

when it came back, Harry Singh had already written his name

into the part of the mover, so I wrote mine on the part of the

seconder.

(20)Do you recall, was the Reverend Ilay at hula there? —

Yes, the Reverend Mayathula was there as a delegate of the

Mapumulo branch.

Did he make any comment so far as you can remember? —

’Well . . (intervenes)

About accused No. 8 . — Veil, he made a number of comments

At one stage I think at the start when IIo. 8 was supposed to

give the financial r e p o r t and when he iirst gave his excuse,

Mr Mayathula said that, young man, you must get married, you

know, and things like that.

BY THE COURT: He said that to Ho. P.? — lie said that to (30)

No. 8 . Because we had been looking for Po. o lor some time so

1/...

- 8568 -HIiOHO.

Accused No. 8 was suspended for violating the financial policy

of the movement. I think Harry Singh said that he was suspended

for being an informer or something to that effect. That is not

true. He was suspended for violating the financial policy of

the movement. Although the people from Durban had this thing

with them that he was a security risk, but that was not why he

was suspended, because they did not - they could not say

anvthing about his being a securitv risk, except savinrr thatKJ O <—■ 'J 1 JL t/ U u

he got a few claps and I do not remember whether he said

everything - he wrote everything, whatever the accusation ( 1 0 )

was, but that was not the crux of his suspension.

Who moved for his suspension? — Well, theoretically I

moved for his suspension because I wrote down the motion for

his suspension. Then I passed it on, but I had not written

my name on the part of the mover, so I passed it on for the

people to read before I put the notice on the motion and then

when it came back, Harry Singh had already written his name

into the part of the mover, so I wrote mine on the part of the

seconder.

Do you recall, was the Reverend Hayathula there? — (20)

Yes, the Reverend Hayathula was there as a delegate of the

Hapumulo branch.

Did he make any comment so far as you can remember? —

Well . . (intervenes)

About accused No. 8 . — Veil, he made a number of comments

At one stage I think at the start when Iïo. 8 was supposed to

give the financial report and when he i irst gave his excuse,

Hr Hayathula said that, young man, you must get married, you

know, and things like that.

BY THE COURT: he said that to No. 8 ? — He said that to (30)

No. 8 . Because we had been looking for Ho. V for some time so

I / ___

\

8 565 ■ Nil OHO .

I do not know whether the Reverend Mayathula saw where he was.

So the Reverend Mayathula said you must get married and not

delay us.

Attend to his work. — At a later stage again that is now

after accused No. 8 had been suspended now, Mayathula said -

I am not purporting to quote him verbatim, hut he said words

to the effect that do not worry, now you will go to the front

line where there is work. We all laughed, in fact we were

dispersing, so I asked him: Castro, what do you mean by that?

You see. You just sit there at the office, you do nothing (1 0 )

you must come and work with us. That is, 1 only asked that

and about everybody was laughing, so I also asked. I was not

serious either in my asking him what he meant by that.

MR PITMAN: Nov/ - yes, sorry. — Also there that is when I

heard about the proposed symposium that v;as going to be held

in Durban on the l^th September, 197Zi , it was at the SEMICON.

Where did you hear about it from? From whom? — I heard

it from Harry Singh. I am not too certain whether Yagan ITaidoo

was there, but Colin Jeffries was also there. Now they told

me that the Durban, branches were involved in the organi- (2 0 )

sation of the symposium and Harry Singh wrote down names of

two people on a piece of paper and. asked me to get in touch

with those people and ask them to cone down to Durban to be

speakers at the symposium. The names were Mr Zeph Mothuping...

( intervenes)

Just spell that please. — M-o-t-h-u-p-i-n-g.

And the Zeph is Z-e-p-h? — Z-e-p-h.

Yes? __ And brother Ben Louw who was at that time I think7• •

director of the pre-university students. 1 had to get in

touch with those people and ask them to come down to ( 3 0 j

Durban.

Before/...

X

- 8 5 6 S - NKOHO .

I do not know whether the Reverend Ilayathula saw where he was

So the Reverend Hayathula said you must ret married and not

delay us.

Attend to his work. — At a later stage again that is now

after accused No. 8 had been suspended now, Hayathula said -

I am not purporting to quote him verbatim, but he said- words

to the effect that do not worry, now you will go to the front

line where there is work. We all laughed, in fact we were

dispersing, so I asked him: Castro, what do you mean by that?

You see. You just sit there at the office, you do nothing (10)

you must come and work with us. That is, 1 only asked that

and about everybody was laughing, so I also asked. I was not

serious either in my asking him what he meant by that.

IiR r I THAN: Now - yes, sorry. — Also there that is when I

heard about the proposed symposium that was going to be held

in Durban on the 15th September, 197^, it was at the SEHICON.

Where did you hear about it from? I?.rom whom? — I heard

it from Harry Singh. I am not too certain whether Yagan Naidoo

was there, but Colin Jeffries was also there. Nov/ they told

me that the Durban branches were involved in the organi ( 20)

sation of the symposium and. Harry Singh wrote down names of

two people on a piece of paper and. asked, me to get in touch

with those people and ask them to come d.own to Durban to be

speakers at the symposium. The names were Iir Zeph Hothuping.. .

( intervenes)

Just spell that please. — K-o-t-h-u-p-i-n-g.

And the Zeph is Z-e-p-h? — Z-e-p-h.

Yes? — And brother Ben Louw who was at that time I think? 9

• •

director of the pre-university students. 1 had to get in

touch with those people and ask them to come down to

Durban.

Be f o re /...

(50)

- 8570 -lïKOMO.

Before you go on with that, at that meeting was the

question of the P .R .O . raiseci? —— we got a letter 1 rom Colin

Jeffries I think, and in the letter the P .R .O . said that due

to pressure he was resigning his post as public relations

officer.

Who was that? — Brother Rev Cooper, brother to accused

Ho. 1. Veil, we debated the issue and ( intervenes)

Did anybody canvass for the post? — Yes, I personally . . .

( intervenes)

MR REES; It would be better if my Learned- Friend did not (10)

put leading questions.

MR PITMAN: It is not a leading question with respect.

BY 'THE COURT: The reply can be yes or no. Yes, put the

question. — There was somebody who canvassed for - who

canvassed to be elected, into the position, that was Harry Singh.

He said . . (intervenes)

Did Harry canvass or did somebody canvass for him? — Well,

he did.

He canvassed? — He canvassed. He said that well, you

know, not really directly saying elect me, but he said ( 20)that he had been working with Rev Cooper and he has been helpin'

Rev so he is in a position and. more so that he is in Durban and

Rev is next to him; Rev can still be of assistance, because in

the letter Rev Cooper had said that he would, be willing to

;ist whoever came in and Harry Singh was a Durban man and

those were the factors that were in hir favour. / 1 though I.

■personally suggested at that time brother Kenneth Rajee for

the position, but everybody agreed that Harry Singh was ideal.

MR PITMAII: And who was elected? — Harr;/ Singh was elected an

acting P .R .O . until congress. (30)

Nov/, you had got to the point (intervenes)

i) p / • • •

■: ̂ g g r <J • WWï W®1'1

- 8 5 71 - Tttl'l ivUi

BY THE COURI': Is this a convenient stage? Harry Singh

was elected, you say, as acting? — As actinr.

P .R .O .

THE COURT ADJOURNS.

Collection Number: AD1719

State v S Cooper and 8 others.

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DOCUMENT DETAILS:

Document ID:- AD1719-Vol140 Document Title:- Volume 140, Pages 8529 - 8571.