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TRC AMNESTY HEARING TRANSCRIPTS - http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/index.html Page 1 of 117
TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
AMNESTY HEARING TRANSCRIPTS
BENONI 2 (7 - 8 September 1998)
Wimpy Bar bombings PART 1 PART 2
TRC AMNESTY HEARING TRANSCRIPTS - http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/index.html Page 2 of 117
TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
AMNESTY HEARING
DATE: 7TH SEPTEMBER 1998
NAME: ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA
MATTER: WIMPY BAR BOMBING AND OTHERS
DAY : 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: I
wish to identify myself and would ask my colleagues and the different
representatives to do the same. I'm Judge Ronnie Pillay.
ADV MOTATA: I'm Advocate John Motata.
MS KHAMPEPE: I'm Ms Khampepe.
ADV STEENKAMP: I'm André Steenkamp.
MR KOOPEDI: I am Brian Koopedi.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, you are appearing for the applicants?
MR KOOPEDI: That is indeed so, I'm appearing for all four applicants.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, you are appearing as Evidence Leader?
ADV STEENKAMP: Yes, Mr Chairman, and also on behalf of the victims, in the
Katlehong incident and the Wimpy attacks. As you wish Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other representatives?
ADV STEENKAMP: No, Mr Chairman, no further representatives.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Then we can proceed.
MR KOOPEDI: As it pleases the Committee. There is something which one
wishes to raise in limine, and I will ask the indulgence of the Committee. Two of
our application forms were not attested to. If the Committee will allow me, I would
wish to address that with each applicant as he starts.
CHAIRPERSON: Why can't it be attested to now? Why can't it be signed now?
TRC AMNESTY HEARING TRANSCRIPTS - http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/index.html Page 3 of 117
MR KOOPEDI: We do not have any problem with signing that now, but because it
was not done timeously, one thought it would be proper to raise it in this forum and
do it correctly. We have discussed this and do not have a problem with signing
them now.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, are you saying it is not attested to or not deposed
to? Is it not signed by the person who made it?
MR KOOPEDI: The applicants have signed but they were not signed before a
Commissioner of oaths.
CHAIRPERSON: If during one of the adjournments they are willing to confirm
that that is their signature, then it can be attested to.
MR KOOPEDI: As it pleases, we will do that, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Are there any objections to that, Mr Steenkamp?
ADV STEENKAMP: No, objections, thank you Mr Chairman.
MR KOOPEDI: Mr Chairman, our first applicant is here, Mr Sigasa. Could we
have him sworn in?
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, his application appears in the bundle, pages
21 till 27.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sigasa, do you have any objections to the taking of the oath?
MR SIGASA: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Which language do you prefer to use?
MR SIGASA: English.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you quite sure?
MR SIGASA: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Would you not be more comfortable with any of the vernacular?
MR SIGASA: My submission is done in English.
CHAIRPERSON: It doesn't matter, I need to know that you are comfortable.
MR SIGASA: I'm very comfortable.
CHAIRPERSON: In English?
TRC AMNESTY HEARING TRANSCRIPTS - http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/index.html Page 4 of 117
MR SIGASA: In English, yes.
ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Mr Sigasa, you are an applicant in this
matter, is that correct?
MR SIGASA: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: You have prepared a statement to present, to read to the
Honourable Committee Members, in support of your amnesty application, is that
correct?
MR SIGASA: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Will you please proceed.
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Koopedi, do you have copies of the statement he is about to
read for the benefit of the members of the Committee?
MR KOOPEDI: We had thought that as usual we would find the photocopying
facilities here. We worked until very late last night and unfortunately we have not
yet been able to make copies but as soon as we have made copies, our intention is
to submit that but for the moment, if the Committee Members will bear with us, we
do not have enough copies to give to the Honourable Committee Members and my
learned friend on the other side.
MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.
MR KOOPEDI: Please proceed.
MR SIGASA:
"I, Ernest Phumuzi Sigasa, born on the 4th of June 1965 joined the
African National Congress and its armed wing, Umkhonto weSizwe
in 1984. I became the commander of the Regional Command
Structure, Johannes Nkosi Unit, between 1987 to 1990. I received my
military training and combat training in Botswana, Zimbabwe and the
former Soviet Union. Johannes Nkosi Unit was constituted by the
following combatants: myself, Ernest Sigasa, overall commander of
the unit, combat name Happy. My responsibilities were overall
command, clearance of the DLB's, the guidance to military activities,
to communicate with the front command of Botswana and the
military headquarters, Lusaka and Zambia and also to execute armed
attacks. The other fellow applicant, Tebogo Kebotlhale, the
Commissar of the Regional Command Structure, combat name,
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Bernard. His responsibilities were to do political work within the unit
to train and distribute arms in our various sub-units, clearance of the
DLB's, executing attacks and sustain the moral of the unit members.
Alfas Ndlovu, fellow applicant, a member of the Command Structure,
combat name Ambros. Responsibilities was to train armed units in the
various areas, execute attacks and he was also a principal tactician, a
military tactician in the unit. Molwedi Mokoena, fellow applicant,
combat name, Bensaramos. He was responsible for the overall
welfare of the unit. He served as the principal fund-raiser for the unit.
He trained armed units, he executed attacks and his also responsibility
was a politico military analyst in the unit. Gift(?) Sephras
Mkomezulu, though late, member as well, combat name, Press. His
responsibilities were to train arm units, execute attacks and he was
also the military tactician in the unit.
Johannes Nkosi, the person, was born in 1905 and joined the
Communist Party at the age of 19. He was assassinated on Dingaan's
Day, 1930, during the burning campaign, past burning campaign. He
was shot at point blank, stabbed and beaten to death by a chief police
constable. No policeman was ever punished for his assassination. He
was a true veteran Trade Unionist, a seasoned communist from the
countryside.
Our unit was impressed with his selfless devotion to the liberation
struggle, hence the unit was named after him, Johannes Nkosi. The
composition of Johannes Nkosi Unit was characterised by the proven
record of involvement of members traced from the Congress of South
African Students, COSAS, the youth organisation during the '80's.
Johannes Nkosi Unit members involvement in the mass democratic
movement, championed by the United Democratic Front was in
various capacities as members and activists and leaders. This
informed their political readiness to serve in MK. Proven leadership
and political consciousness was the fundamental criterion
characterising membership to Johannes Nkosi Unit"
The structure of Johannes Nkosi Unit, it is in page 4 in the bundle of files, the
organogram of our structure.
"The political situation then, the mid-80's was characterised by the
heightened activity by liberation movements against illegitimate
regime. The apartheid regime had launched a brutal campaign of
repression and suppression against all the people, both the black and
white, urban and rural, rich and poor, unionised and non-unionised,
who were bent on bringing down apartheid machinery through
participation in the ranks of the people's organisations, civics, Trade
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Unions, youths, students and many more other progressive
organisations.
The occupation of the townships by the then SADF meant that the
apartheid regime was clearly gearing itself for unleashing its might on
an unarmed and defenceless people. The occupation of the African
townships such as Sebokeng, Katlehong, Duduza and others
necessitated an urgent need from the side of the African National
Congress, ANC, through Umkhonto weSizwe to defend the people
against this occupation.
The occupation by the then SADF of our schools, churches and sports
fields was a calculated attempt by the apartheid regime to capitulate
the masses of the people and cause a hole to the struggle for
liberation. The occupation was a desperate response by the regime in
order to save face in the light of the successes made by Umkhonto
weSizwe, MK.
The call by President Tambo, the late President Tambo of the African
National Congress, comrade Tambo, I quote:
'Render the country ungovernable and apartheid unworkable'. That
was the January 8th statement of 1985, had been met with positive
revolutionary responses by the majority of people in South Africa. To
mention but a few, in 1984 school boycotts in the East Rand, the local
government elections in August '84, the national strike by the
National Union of Mine Workers, the rent boycotts in Sebokeng,
Duduza, Sakane and other townships. At that time the front-lying
states as well were under constant cross-border raids conducted by
the racists commandos as a result of the intensification of the armed
struggle in the country. The country was in a general state of war.
The Johannes Nkosi Unit was born out of the circumstantial realities
of the time. The Johannes Nkosi Unit was established henceforth to
lead our combat groups against apartheid tyranny. We believed that
the seeds of people's war were now charred by tribulations of mass
struggles waged by the people of South Africa. And believing that,
the armed struggle was integral component part of a broad political
process towards liberation of South Africa.
The Johannes Nkosi Unit emerged to reinforce those struggles
through increased armed activities and the revolutionary propaganda,
to marshal revolutionary forces into war for freedom, peace and
democracy in our country.
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The strategic importance of Johannes Nkosi. The East Rand region
as an economic powerhouse in the province and the country was an
ideal and strategic place to launch an accelerated armed struggle. The
East Rand region through its multitudes of industries occupied and
served as the nerve centre of the apartheid economy. As an industrial
and economic giant through levies, taxes, rates, wealth created,
subsidised and maintained apartheid regime.
The East Rand region, due to its economic progress as part of the
broader campaign to weaken an cut the resource base of apartheid
regime was eventually targeted as an ideal place for armed struggle,
championed by the ANC's armed military wing, Umkhonto weSizwe.
Political turmoil in the East Rand. During the second half of the
'80's and countrywide informed the origin of the Johannes Nkosi
Unit. Furthermore, the whole country was in fire. Umkhonto
weSizwe and the masses of the people, organised by the mass
democratic movement, were engaged in fierce battles with apartheid
regime. It is during this period when killings, detentions, torture and
displacement of ...[indistinct] was experienced across the line of fire.
The emergence of Johannes Nkosi Unit in the East Rand was due to
political conditions existing countrywide and particularly in the
region. A need to build popular armed forces, a need to consolidate
armed activities in terms of quality and number in order to salvage
the people's war and finally to galvanise the support of the people and
the international community through armed propaganda activities
expressed in the operations executed by our forces to ensure that total
isolation and the defeat of apartheid is realised.
Our sub-units. Johannes Nkosi Unit trained, armed and led people to
battle, the combat units in various locations in the region. These sub-
units were ordered to deliver a heavy blow to the bogus municipal
elections in 1988 and the security personnel. The following
operations illustrate the extent of the blow unleashed by one of our
combat units under our command, Baizel February based in Duduza.
There was a blowing of a police van in Duduza with a limpet mine.
There was a blowing of the administration block in kwaThema with a
limpet mine. The sabotage of electrical sub-station in De Notre with a
limpet mine. The blowing of a post office in Nigel with a limpet
mine. Despite the difficulty to locate other units under our command
and keeping their records of operations, we however salute those sub-
units.
The brief or the mandate to Johannes Nkosi Unit. Our brief was to
train, arm and lead the people into battle. It was also to defend out
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people, to severe the enemy lines of communications and power. To
disperse and immobilise the enemy forces. To destroy the enemy's
economic resources. To attack the enemy on all fronts and
...[indistinct] its forces. To make a people's war flourish in its
dimensions in every part of our country.
Our modus operandi. Our modus operandi was planning,
execution and control and the support services. On planning. We met
every Wednesday in a plannery to analyse, review and take decisions
on our actions.
On execution. We retrieved the dead letter boxes, we trained various
sub-units, we conducted reconnaissance, we distributed arms in
various sub-units in the East Rand, we issued out combat orders, we
executed armed actions.
On control. We received reports from units, we visited units to
ascertain welfare and needs, we monitored arms in their possession.
On the support services. We had links with the mass democratic
movement leadership, we owned two vehicles, we also had
underground houses.
Operations. The context of the operations. The nature of the
operations carried out by Johannes Nkosi Unit ranged from the point
of qualifying the elaborate position of number one, to attack the
enemy security personnel, to accelerate armed propaganda, hitting the
economic infrastructure of the system.
The least of our operations: Johannes Nkosi Command
Structures Operations.
1) We bombed the ...[indistinct] Barracks in Mnisi section. It was
carried out by my fellow applicant, Tebogo Kebotlhale and Alfas
Ndlovu.
2) The bombing of the sewerage pipes in Sunwatt Park, Boksburg, it
was by myself, Ernest Sigasa and my fellow applicant, Molwedi
Mokoena.
The ambush of "Kitskonstabels" and the SAP Motsamai Section in
Ndela hostel, it was myself and my fellow applicant, Alfas Ndlovu.
3) The bombing of Wimpy, Benoni, it was carried out by my fellow
applicant, Alfas Ndlovu.
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4) The bombing of railway line and the sub-station, electrical sub-
station next to Katlehong Station, it was carried out by Alfas Ndlovu
and Molwedi Mokoena.
5) The bus terminus in Germiston, it was carried out by Tebogo
Kebotlhale.
We now classify our operations as follows: The electrical sub-station
in Katlehong - The bombing of the electrical sub-station in Katlehong
which powers the railway services between Germiston and Katlehong
areas was to signify the vulnerability of apartheid economic system.
The electrical sub-station serves as a reliable means to effect
transportation at the benefit of apartheid rules, as part of the broader
transportation network. The bombing of electrical sub-station came
on the eve of the stay-away campaign called by the Mass Democratic
Movement. For us to support struggling masses of the people, the
progressive organisations and undermining the apartheid economy,
the electrical sub-station became the target. For us to disrupt and
support the stay-away, we had to render trade services of use. In
summary, the electrical sub-station blast in Katlehong signified the
passion the Johannes Nkosi Unit had in supporting the progressive
forces which engaged the enemy despite limited means.
The Johannes Nkosi Unit attacked the electrical sub-station to support
the stay-away planned by the progressive organisations in the
townships. The Johannes Nkosi Unit attacked the electrical sub-
station in order to engrave in the minds of the people in South Africa,
that MK is with them and MK is everywhere. That action served as
an armed propaganda tactic as well.
Wimpy Bar. Wimpy Bar was not the target at first, the actual target
was the notorious Security Branch headquarters in Benoni next to
Benoni Railway Station. The extensive and constant information
sought through reconnaissance led to Wimpy Bar attack. Our reports
and information as a result indicated that most of the Special Branch
personnel frequented the place before and after their notorious
crusade of activities in the townships and elsewhere.
Wimpy Bar which is several metres from this Special Branch
headquarters became the target. To us Wimpy Bar was an ideal place
to attack the security personnel where they least expected.
Furthermore, it was to mark the 67th anniversary of the South African
Communist Party which was on the 30th of July.
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Furthermore, guided by the revolutionary call of the leadership, in
particular the late Chief of Staff of Umkhonto weSizwe, comrade
Chris Hani, I quote:
'That we must turn the white areas into battle zones because there's a
popular war for total liberation in this country'.
In summary. Wimpy Bar in Benoni was bombed in line with the
principles of attacking the enemy security personnel as legitimate
targets and the revolutionary armed propaganda intended to cultivate
the spirit of rebellion and the frame of mind which puts the politics of
the revolutionary change to the fore. That was also a statement by
comrade President, the late President Tambo on the January 8th
statement, 73rd anniversary of the ANC.
The bus terminus blast in Germiston. The bombing of the bus
terminus in Germiston was carried with the sole purpose of furthering
the revolutionary armed propaganda. The bus terminus was
practically for white persons use in Germiston. The bus terminus was
observed and reconnoitred over a period of time. The outcome of the
reconnaissance revealed that it is only busy during peak hours of the
morning, roughly between from 7 up to 10 in the morning. The
bombing was time for 12 o'clock and during that time the place is
deserted. Hence it was placed consciously at a time when there are no
people around. They were done in order to cause confusion. Despite
the fact that it was an all white bus terminus we did not aim to attack
those white civilians.
The bus terminus bombing in Germiston was not an attack on the
whites but an armed propaganda tactic. In its planning and execution
of the operation, Johannes Nkosi embraced the message on the white
civilians' life as elaborated by the late President, comrade OR Tambo,
I quote:
'We have not been avoiding hitting whites as whites, there was no
policy of hitting buildings instead of whites, no whites instead of
buildings. This is not a distinction that we have been making. If we
have made any distinction it has been to avoid hitting people'
The bombing of the bus terminus in Germiston was planned in line
with the zeal to spread revolutionary armed propaganda and extend
the war into greater heights in the region.
The ambush on policemen. The Kitts Constable, the Municipal Police
known as the "Kitskonstabels", came to ...[indistinct] at a time of the
state of emergency declared on the 21st July 1985 by the ex-Law and
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Order Minister, Louis le Grange. The Municipal Police in various
townships in the East Rand engaged in most brutal attacks on the
community. They enforced curfew with much more abhorable
arrogance ever shown by the racist Security Forces in the country.
They collaborated an action with the riot police, the then SADF and
the councillors, to extinguish the flames of war and to abort the cause
of liberation struggle. The Municipal Police, due to their geographic
deployment in townships, were always the first of the enemy security
machinery to be in touch with the popular activities of struggling,
waged by the communities. In all cases they crushed these activities
with a brute force ever unleashed by other enemy Security Forces,
that is the then SAP, the then SADF.
For us, Municipal Police represented part of the security machinery of
the apartheid regime. The defeat of the enemy plans to abort the
struggle for liberation in our country depended on the cleansing and
the elimination of all those cohorts in the apartheid regime's payroll.
The Municipal Police as the security apparatus of the apartheid
regime equally as the other agencies became the legitimate target for
our unit. It was about time that the armed offensive was directed
against the Municipal Police. In our minds they constituted the last
blow of the security agency that was created to suppress the
...[indistinct] wave of mass resistance against apartheid colonial
...[indistinct] forces.
It was also important for us, in order to deter and discourage the
people from joining the enemy ranks which was heavily infiltrated,
which has heavily infiltrated our communities through some 007
types, spies, informers, collaborators, at the point in questions.
In summary, the attack on the Municipal Police in Motsamai Section,
Ndela Hostel was a legitimate target act of defending our
communities against the savage attacks of apartheid regime.
The Municipal Police never hesitated to unleash systematic violence
against the fighters for the people's cause. They fanned fratricidal
conflict amongst the people in order to ensure the perpetration of
apartheid system, from which they benefited.
The late ANC President, comrade OR Tambo called, I quote:
'The offensive against apartheid system must be extended to reach
Bantustan and other apartheid institutions in all corners of the
TRC AMNESTY HEARING TRANSCRIPTS - http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/index.html Page 12 of 117
country, among all population groups'. That also is the 73rd
anniversary of the ANC, 1985.
Johannes Nkosi Unit rose to the occasion to deliver telling blows
against the apartheid system and their puppets who have denounced
the people by defending the people's enemy.
The contribution. We saw our struggle as part and parcel of a
contribution by other MK cadres. The time has come therefore when
we should dip the revolutionary banner in honouring the memories of
our fellow martyrs, like comrade Izak Mokoena, Gift Mtaung,
Aubrey Nkosi and many others. The unsung heroes and heroines of
our struggle.
We want to say that today the heroic work of our people's army goes
on. The new dispensation, democracy, nation building and the healing
process testimonised the noble ideas of instituting a new South
Africa, united democratic in nature. The time has come when we
should extend gratitude and appreciation to all those MK forces who
made the spear more sharper and precise in line with the slogan:
"Every combatant a patriot and every patriot a combatant". It is
through their blood and sweat that South Africa is a free united
democratic in nature.
Our address to yourselves, the Commissioners. The Johannes Nkosi
Unit takes this opportunity to appreciate work done by the TRC and
the role it has played in bringing about reconciliation and healing our
ghastly past. We feel very much gratified for been afforded an
opportunity by the TRC to tell the truth. It is our firm belief that
through our actions we have in one way or the other contributed to
the establishment of a democratic dispensation. And it is those actions
which in a way contributed to the establishment of the TRC as an
important vehicle excavating the true history of South Africa.
It is also our firm belief that even the Commissioners and the
supporting staff have at one point or the other in their lives cherished
an ideal South African society in which democracy reigns supreme
and that the rule of ordinary law of the land applied. It is that kind of
society for which we ourselves risked our lives for the preservation of
life itself.
Address to victims if they are present in this hall. It has never been
our intention to deliberately kill and injure ordinary people. It was not
our intention to be sitting with you in the hearing like this. Our
actions were not specially directed to you and your families. It has
however happened within the context of escalating armed activities
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that we sit here today and that you happened to be caught in that
cross-fire. We do not pretend that pain and all sorts of inconveniences
have not been suffered by yourselves as a result of our actions, but it
is within the context of the intensification and escalating armed
struggle that some of you fell victims.
We also wish to bring to your attention, the Commission and the
sundry, that you are not the only victims. In a way we are also victims
of circumstances which prevailed then. Those activities have affected
us tremendously to an extent that we need some kind of help of sort
specialised counselling.
It is also with the aforegoing reasons and circumstances that we
appeal to victims to understand our actions within that context. We
also make a humble request to all victims to accept our application
for amnesty. We acknowledge without any hesitation the trauma you
have suffered and undergone as a result of our actions. We know
there has been pain and suffering and we hereby extend our hand of
reconciliation.
We are convinced and hold a firm belief that all of these activities
were carried out in pursuit of the political objectives of the ANC and
its armed wing, Umkhonto weSizwe. These actions were intended to
bolster the moral of South Africans, to mobilise them and enhance
their revolutionary zeal and participation in the liberation struggle.
The other objective as mentioned elsewhere in this application was
also to create conditions for a general revolutionary climate and
demoralise and confuse enemy forces, police and army personnel.
Having said that, I present myself and my co-applicants, comrades,
members of our unit, before yourselves to be considered for amnesty.
I thank you".
MR KOOPEDI: That does his testimony for now Chairperson.
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Sigasa, did I understand you properly when you said you
were not personally involved in the wimpy bombing?
MR SIGASA: Well technically I would say yes.
MS KHAMPEPE: Your involvement is only to the extent that you were the
commander?
MR SIGASA: Yes, I was an overall commander. The question of any
identification, reconnaissance and execution I viewed myself as part. We might
also delegate a responsibility to an individual person within the command structure
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in the East Rand, but yes, I did not personally, but I am responsible because I was
part of that collective.
MS KHAMPEPE: Were you part of the collective which did the reconnaissance?
MR SIGASA: Initially yes, but we delegated the responsibility for further
reconnaissance and execution to my fellow applicant.
MS KHAMPEPE: But to some extent you did direct the attack?
MR SIGASA: Excuse me?
MS KHAMPEPE: To some extent you were responsible for directing that attack,
as the overall commander of the Johannes Nkosi Unit?
MR SIGASA: Yes.
MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: You see, Mr Sigasa, what my colleague is getting at, we stuck
with this lacuna of taking responsibility for actions of the underlings, even if you
didn't know that they're going to do it or did it. In that context, were you party to
the decision to plant that bomb in, let's say, the Wimpy Bar?
MR SIGASA: Yes, I was.
CHAIRPERSON: And through all that planning stage you were party to it?
MR SIGASA: As an overall commander yes, I was.
CHAIRPERSON: And you were being informed of certain information or you
were receiving certain information because of reconnaissance?
MR SIGASA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And when the decision was finally made, the Wimpy Bar in
Benoni was set to be a target, you were party to that decision?
MR SIGASA: Yes, I was.
CHAIRPERSON: And you knew what was going to happen there?
MR SIGASA: I think it confuses a bit. As I elaborated in the submission, the target
as we indicated, because we have realised that it has created some kind of
hullabaloo, particular situation, we knew that people were going to be affected in
our military attack in that blast but I also clarified that Wimpy at first was not the
target but it happened to become a target then. As I elaborated, that through the
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reconnaissance and the information gathered, security personnel as well in fact
were frequenting the place, particularly from the Special Branch stationed here in
Benoni, that is next to the railway station.
CHAIRPERSON: Well let me put it clearer then. You see people can't get amnesty
for something that occurred that they didn't know about, they have to be guilty of
something in order to obtain amnesty, not so?
MR SIGASA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And that is why I'm asking these questions, to see to what extent
you were involved in this. And in respect of the Wimpy, you do say that you were
party to the planning.
MR SIGASA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Is there, of all these events that you talked about, is there any
event that you were not party to, either by planning or actual activity?
MR SIGASA: Not at all, not that I know of. I was responsible. Everything that
happened I was party to.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
Mr Steenkamp?
MS KHAMPEPE: Chairperson, if I can be granted an indulgence, on a question of
clarity.
Can I therefore assume Mr Sigasa, that what you are crisply putting before the
Committee is that you were responsible for selecting Wimpy as a target?
MR SIGASA: A bit dicey question. I must start by saying I'm an ordinary man.
The question of selection of the targets, we delegate responsibilities like in terms
of the orders given to us or the brief, was that we identify wherever they are the
enemy personnel. The target of interest, economic and so on and the identification
of that resulted into Wimpy. The identification of the security personnel resulted
into Wimpy.
And yes, I was informed from time to time, the reconnaissance mission conducted
and the reports thereof.
MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.
Mr Steenkamp?
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CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman,
Honourable Members.
Sir, the view of the victims of the Wimpy Bomb Blast is that first of all they are
opposing the application on the bases that the attack of the Wimpy Bar was a
callous attack because it was not a military target and can't be seen at all to benefit
your political motive at the stage. Can you comment on that first?
MR SIGASA: I think also, Commissioners, we indicated in our application or
submission where we quoted also our late President OR Tambo in relation to or in
regard to the issue of civilians or soft targets or hard targets, whatever one wants to
call it.
As the struggle intensified it was difficult to separate or to have a distinction of the
soft or the hard. When we talk of callousness we also knew at the back of our
minds that innocent civilians will be caught in that kind of, in the crossfire.
So I was saying therefore, they happened to be victims of circumstances at a time
when we were in fact directing our blows to the enemy security personnel.
ADV STEENKAMP: I can tell you as a matter of fact, that not a single Security
Police officer or military personnel or anybody related to any military structure
was involved in this incident or on the day of the incident. All the people that were
injured were only civilians, people working at the Wimpy, other people eating
there but no military people at all.
MR SIGASA: During also the other operations of MK in the country where clearly
the target was a military one in nature, but all reports that we received through
press of course at that time, we did not have the control of the press, even to date,
the reports that would come forth would say so much civilians have died and no
security personnel died. So we cannot deny or confirm that but our targets were
directed against the security personnel as I've said before.
ADV STEENKAMP: Before we go on Sir, from whom did you receive your
order? Did you get any specific orders from anybody to attack Wimpy Bars?
MR SIGASA: I think I must also clarify also again or repeat or reiterate what I
said. Firstly, the order given, we were dealing with the front command in
Botswana and the military headquarters in Lusaka, Zambia.
At no stage was Wimpy a target, at not stage. And as a result I also said that in
executing that action, military action, at no stage have we felt that Wimpy is a
target, it has never been a target before.
ADV STEENKAMP: So you haven't received any direct orders or implicated
orders from anybody, am I right or am I wrong?
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MR SIGASA: Implicated orders to say?
ADV STEENKAMP: I mean implied orders, sorry. Did you receive any orders
from anybody? I'll tell you why I'm asking this question, because on page 25 of the
amnesty application - do you have your application in front of you Sir?
MR SIGASA: Yes.
ADV STEENKAMP: Do you see page 25?
Mr Chairman, Honourable Members, paragraph 11(b). I'll read there:
"Orders by Chris Hani at Zimbabwe 1988 which is in
line with ANC police"
Can you clarify that?
MR SIGASA: Mr Chairman, Chris Hani never said: "Go and blast Wimpy". I
would want, if I may, to recall what Chris Hani said, and in fact it was captured in
the press. After the people in South Africa in the townships were saying: "Through
these struggles only innocent African people are dying, therefore there is a need to
step up the armed struggle and extend it to the white areas", he said and I quote:
"Even those who are going to make the world sit up and
take note and for those who benefit from apartheid will
feel the brunt"
So therefore when we were targeting Benoni Police Station we realised in our
minds that Benoni was also in town and in line with that call we said we were
going to take that struggle to the white areas.
ADV STEENKAMP: You see, maybe just for your comment, it's also the view of
the victims, specifically the Wimpy bomb attack, that is attack was planned
basically against white civilians who frequented this place, not against any military
target whatsoever.
CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you are able to you must put to the witness as to why
that proposition or why those people feel that way.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, the view of the victims who visited this place
and were injured is that according to them this place was mainly visited and
frequented by white civilians and not ordinary military personnel as stated by the
applicant, Mr Chairman.
MR SIGASA: Mr Chairman, I think what I said, of course I hear what the advocate
is saying, like I said all operations carried out, like I said that in all operations
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where activities, armed activities were carried out, where security personnel were
affected but you would find that the reports that come forth every time would say:
"No military personnel were in fact affected".
We also said in the application that the question, we never said they state there, but
in terms of our reconnaissance and the information gathered, that they frequented
the place.
ADV STEENKAMP: Did your information also indicate that a large majority of
the people visiting this place were actually children? If you look at the list of the
victims you will see, and if necessary we will put evidence to the Committee, that
there was a lot of information that people visiting this specific Wimpy Bar were
actually children coming from school or wherever and visiting this place. Have you
any information on that or can you deny that?
MR SIGASA: Well I wouldn't deny or accept that. The questions that the report as
it came, is that military or security personnel, not military, but security personnel
were in fact frequenting the place. That is the information came, that came forth.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you maybe explain to the Committee, what was the
ANC or the MK's policy regarding the identification of targets?
MR SIGASA: Commissioner, I would refer to my application when I, or the
submission as we, as I read it, that the overall brief we must also understand that
the front command, at that time the ANC was a banned organisation and as a result
in terms of communication it was very difficult to frequent in and out of the
country, but the brief in our origin was that we train, arm the people and so on, in
terms of the brief.
So identification of the brief has to be within these parameters as I indicated.
Parameters to say, you train the people, you attack the security personnel wherever
they are to sever the lines of communication and so forth.
So I was saying the identification of a target is influenced or informed by the guide
or the brief or the broad mandate as it were.
ADV STEENKAMP: Did you take any steps to minimise the injuring or the killing
of the civilians, did you take any steps whatsoever?
MR SIGASA: Well in terms of steps I'm not sure what that means, but of course
the question of affecting innocent civilians, in fact it was a touchy one.
We have in fact consistently throughout, in terms of the illustrations of our
operations, we have consistently refused to be drawn into a racial line also where
innocent civilians will be affected.
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However there are certain circumstances where you can't avoid the affecting of
innocent civilians, but that has in fact been our mandate and our brief.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can I ask you, why was this attack planned on a Saturday
afternoon at 12 o'clock, why wasn't it planned during the day when Security Police
were actually in the building or probably in the building or next door? Operational,
why on a Saturday at 12 o'clock?
MR SIGASA: Like I said before, the question of actions, in all our actions we did
not wake in the morning and decide on an attack. Based on any information at the
disposal of one we would prepare plannings based on the information and we
would act accordingly.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I don't know what is an appropriate time, if
you can indicate?
CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
So you called, if I'm not mistaken, you called the Wimpy a military attack, am I
right? Is that what you said in your evidence in chief?
MR SIGASA: Wimpy as Wimpy is not or was not the military attack, not a
military target but the people who went to Wimpy were in fact unfortunately the
target, they happened to be in Wimpy.
If for instance one would make an example, was it Nandos, although Nandos is a
current thing or is a recent thing, if there were a Nandos and our information told
us or informed that they were in Nandos we would have hit them in Nandos or we
would have hit them in whatever restaurant. So it so happened to be Wimpy but
Wimpy as Wimpy was not a target.
ADV STEENKAMP: What information did you actually have on the Wimpy Bars?
Can you elaborate, exactly what did your reconnaissance say? What information
did you have on person frequenting that place?
MR SIGASA: We would all remember, at that time, during that time, the state of
emergency and so on, that many of the political activists were in fact arrested,
tortured in Benoni Police Station and some of the information that we got from
those was that the security personnel themselves, Special Branch in particular, in
terms of their movements and the place where they dine happened to be Wimpy.
So that is the kind of information, but of course in military situations or in armed
situations what you do is that you would have to verify and that is why based on
that, the question of following that information for verification purposes was in
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fact conducted and hence the reconnaissance conducted and so on. That led to
Wimpy.
ADV STEENKAMP: Of the group of the four applicants, who of you exactly did
the reconnaissance? Were you involved yourself, personally?
MR SIGASA: I think I clarified that in my submission. I was involved in the
planning, the identification, the planning and so on but the execution was my
fellow applicant, Alfas Ndlovu.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you tell us ...[intervention]
MS KHAMPEPE: I'm sorry.
I thought I understood Advocate Steenkamp's question to have been: "Were you
personally involved in the reconnaissance"? Not in the actual execution.
MR SIGASA: I was not involved in the actual execution but in the planning, yes.
MS KHAMPEPE: In the reconnaissance, in reconnoitring Wimpy Bar?
MR SIGASA: We delegated the responsibility. I said it also, that my fellow
applicant Alfas Ndlovu was in fact the person that we delegated.
MS KHAMPEPE: So you were not involved in the reconnaissance?
MR SIGASA: No, I was not involved in the reconnaissance.
ADV STEENKAMP: Do I understand you correctly, Mr Ndlovu actually updated
you exactly what was happening in the Wimpy Bar, he was the guy with the
information at hand, first-hand information?
MR SIGASA: I'm not sure when one says "first-hand" information but in terms of
the reconnaissance data, yes he would report, as I indicated in terms of our modus
operandi, that we met every Wednesday to review, to take stock of the situation
and come up with new plans. And of course he would come and report in that
plannery session where decisions would be taken.
ADV STEENKAMP: Wouldn't you agree with me Sir, that probably to attack a
real military target like a police office or a military target like a military
installation, would probably have been a real military target?
MR SIGASA: Can I hear that again?
ADV STEENKAMP: Sorry, I'll repeat that for you. Would you agree with me that
to attack a police station or a military installation would probably have been a real
military target opposed to the Wimpy Bar on a Saturday?
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MR SIGASA: I think I also indicated that - although the question comes in a
different form, but the question of attacking, we have been attacking, we have hit,
in the list of our attacks we have indicated we hit the barrack, we've ambushed the
security personnel, we have done that in terms of the information.
So I'm saying that forms part of the operations that we carried out, the security
personnel. And in fact in our operations we have carried out attacks on their
barracks as well.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, will you allow me, I've got a few more
questions.
CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Sir.
Can you explain to the Committee, why and how was the attack on the Wimpy Bar
beneficial to your political cause?
MR SIGASA: Our attack, firstly we indicated that we were a liberation movement,
we did not have the regular army. Part of our strategy or our tactic was to engage
in armed propaganda to prove to the people that MK is there but also to annihilate
the enemy forces was also part of our responsibility, where we believed that they
were vulnerable, where they least expected attacks. So I believe that we were in
fact hitting a target, they happened to be in Wimpy.
ADV STEENKAMP: Do you know where the arms came from, the limpet mine
and who decided to use a limpet mine? Can you elaborate on that?
MR SIGASA: Excuse me?
ADV STEENKAMP: Do you know where the limpet mine came from and who
decided to use a limpet mine?
MR SIGASA: The limpet mine was part of our arms that we cleared or collected
from the dead letter boxes, supplied of course by the unit of the ordinance which of
course we don't know but they would simply give us a sketch that in such and such
a place there such armament, quantity of armaments and that would include of
course limpet mines, AK's and so on, grenades and so on and so forth.
ADV STEENKAMP: Do you know if the ANC officially acknowledged this act as
part and parcel of their political struggle? Do you if they acknowledged this attack
as part and parcel of their political struggle, the attack on the Wimpy Bar?
MR SIGASA: I remember at that time when we met the leadership, they indicated
that there was an outcry, not only about our unit but the manner or the trend that
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was beginning to assume in terms of targets and so on. Oliver Tambo said,
interviewed, I remember it was in January '86 when he was asked about the soft
targets, he said there is no policy of hitting civilians in the ANC policy.
However, he indicated in the context of struggle, that certain innocent people
would be caught in the cross-fire. There is no policy in the ANC in regard to the
question of hitting of whites.
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, have you got any re-examination?
MR KOOPEDI: No re-examination thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Sigasa, I'm just going to put a few questions on issues of
clarity. You have given us an elaborate detail of the reconnaissance which was
conducted on the Wimpy Bar. Can you just explain to us further on who
constituted the reconnaissance group?
MR SIGASA: The reconnaissance was conducted by Alfas Ndlovu, it was after - I
think I must also clarify, I also said in my submission that for us to get to know
about the intended target, there were a number activists in Daveyton,
Tematsakan(?) and so on who were detained in Benoni Police Station. That's how
we got to know about that.
Further, what one forgets as well was that the police used to, Special Branch, used
to meet, particularly senior people, to review ...[indistinct] reports on Saturdays as
well, so that formed part of the data that came to us.
MS KHAMPEPE: No, but my question was quite simple, who constituted the
reconnaissance group that conducted the various reconnaissance on the Wimpy
Bar, the names of people who formed part of that group?
MR SIGASA: There were no groups except my fellow applicant who was assigned
the responsibility.
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MS KHAMPEPE: So you are saying only Mr Ndlovu conducted the
reconnaissance?
MR SIGASA: That's it.
MS KHAMPEPE: On the information received from ex-detainees of the various
prisons?
MR SIGASA: Yes.
MS KHAMPEPE: For how long was this reconnaissance conducted? Are you able
to shed any light on that?
MR SIGASA: Well I can't strike a total recall in regard to the duration of the
reconnaissance conducted but I know for a fact that we used to conduct for a
period of some time, depending on the nature of the target and so on.
We would take some time basically, and also for verification purposes as to
whatever the information that is at our disposal is in fact the correct one. But in
regard to the period and so on I can't strike a total recall.
MS KHAMPEPE: How many reports did you yourself as the overall commander
receive from Mr Ndlovu, with regard to his reconnaissance on the selected target?
Was it only one report?
MR SIGASA: No, no, various reports. I think - I would say various reports.
MS KHAMPEPE: You were part of the group that approved Wimpy Bar as the
selected target, is that not so?
MR SIGASA: Yes, as the head of Johannes Nkosi Unit.
CHAIRPERSON: No, that's not what is being asked. Were you in a meeting or a
gathering where the decision was made that in Benoni a particular target, because
it is frequented by members of the Security Police, that a bomb would be planted
in the Wimpy Bar?
MR SIGASA: Yes, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: You were in a meeting?
MR SIGASA: Yes.
MS KHAMPEPE: Was this decision decided after you had received the various
reports on the reconnaissance which had been conducted or was the decision to
target Wimpy as a target, to target Wimpy, decided before the reconnaissance was
conducted?
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MR SIGASA: No, no, no. In fact Wimpy is not an exception, all our targets we
would identify, reconnoitre, collect data, verify and it's a period of time before you
reached the decision. For an instance you did not go or decide to go to Wimpy Bar
without planning, or any other target, without planning the route of entrance, the
route of retreat, the surrounding area, the enemy, the hostile forces around the area
and so on. You take that all in account and weight it before you decide to
...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: But the question is, the decision to target Wimpy in Benoni, the
one that was ultimately blasted, was that decision in which you were in a meeting
to decide that, was that decision taken before or after reconnaissance had taken
place?
MR SIGASA: It was after the reconnaissance had taken place. Clarity for that,
Wimpy was not - in fact it came to picture some time after we had identified the
actual target and then it led us to Wimpy. So Wimpy was an aftermath basically.
MS KHAMPEPE: Wimpy was an aftermath after you had been informed that
members of the Security Branch were visiting that place?
MR SIGASA: Absolutely.
MS KHAMPEPE: And are you able to tell us how many times these members
were identified as having visited that particular Wimpy Bar?
MR SIGASA: The report - well firstly, the security personnel works every day,
seven days a week, and particularly Saturdays. Head of departments on the
Security Branch would in fact meet and give reports, so we knew that they were
meeting frequently, almost every week.
After that of course they would then go to whatever place that they would go to,
but in particular in this case we are talking about the place in question, Wimpy,
they then happened to go to.
To add probably is that some of the detainees themselves, they used to order, if my
memory serves me well, they used to order for detainees from Wimpy, if my
memory serves me well. But you would understand as I'm saying if my memory
serves me well, because this thing happened more or less 9/10 years ago but I'm
trying to strike a total recall and so that I would have a total picture.
MS KHAMPEPE: In the reports that you must have received from Mr Ndlovu,
were you able to be informed of how many black people visited Wimpy?
MR SIGASA: I can't remember, but yes, there was an information to the effect that
blacks are in fact you know, some you know, eating in Wimpy but I can't clearly
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remember but yes, I think I do recall a bit where an information came to say they
have seen blacks in Wimpy.
MS KHAMPEPE: As an overall commander, was it not something that was of
particular importance to you, to ascertain if the relevant people that you were
targeting would actually be the main targets of the attack and that innocent would
not actually form part of this attack?
MR SIGASA: Well there are two statements that one has to probably try his
utmost to address. One, we were and are not a racist organisation, if fact we
championed the course of non-racialism over the years despite the fact that there
have been numerous cases where there have been only blacks were dying. To that
effect if you look at the Botswana raid, Botswana nationalists died innocent and so
on, Lesotho, Zimbabwe and so on. So in many cases in a state of war
...[intervention]
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Sigasa, I'm going to interrupt you, I'm sorry to be doing this.
MR SIGASA: Okay.
MS KHAMPEPE: I just want you to stick to responding to the question that I pose
to you.
MR SIGASA: Okay.
MS KHAMPEPE: All that I want to know is whether you did as the overall
commander, take any precautions to ensure that the targets were the ones who
would suffer mostly in this attack and that innocent people would not be the ones
to suffer mostly in this attack?
MR SIGASA: Well, I - may I be allowed to say that in terms of planning and
executing any military or armed action, you look at the degree of the impact or
effect that you would deliver, and it was clear in terms of the report that we would
deliver a devastating, to a devastating degree in terms of our action. So it is on that
basis that we took the decision.
MS KHAMPEPE: So you didn't take any precautions to ensure that innocent
people who were not the subject of the attack should not be harmed?
MR SIGASA: I think that question should be put to the enemy personnel who
deliberately ...[indistinct] with innocent in return blame the liberating fighters for
the victims or the injuries incurred.
I would say in this case we viewed that and we regret where innocent lives, life for
that matter because it's very valuable and previous, where innocents were caught in
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that kind of action, so we dearly regret. However, we do not regret of delivering or
carrying out armed actions that would annihilate the enemy personnel.
MS KHAMPEPE: You were a member of the MK from 1985, is that not so?
MR SIGASA: Yes, I joined the ANC inside the country in 1984. I went to
Botswana late '85 for the actual joining of Umkhonto.
MS KHAMPEPE: Yes. And you are aware that apart from this particular incident
there were also other Wimpy Bar incidents in the country which were conducted
by unknown forces?
MR SIGASA: Well, I'm not aware of that except the report that I read on the
newspaper that there was one Wimpy, if I'm not mistaken in then Eastern Cape or
something.
CHAIRPERSON: Which one occurred first, the one in the Eastern Cape or the one
here in Benoni?
MR SIGASA: I don't know, it's only something that we took into account now
recently after the unbannings and so on.
CHAIRPERSON: You didn't know at that time that there was a spate of attacks at
Wimpy outlets?
MR SIGASA: No, no, no.
CHAIRPERSON: Not at all?
MR SIGASA: No, no.
CHAIRPERSON: So you can't even say whether the one in Benoni was the first or
the last or whatever?
MR SIGASA: No, I can't but I believe in fact we were not - I would imagine in
terms of the, I think Benoni came first. Whether that one came after and so on I
can't strike a total recall.
MS KHAMPEPE: ...[inaudible]
CHAIRPERSON: What is your answer?
MR SIGASA: No, it didn't.
MS KHAMPEPE: You are saying, to your knowledge you are not aware whether
there had been any Wimpy attacks before you launched your attack on this
particular Wimpy Bar?
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MR SIGASA: Absolutely.
MS KHAMPEPE: Did you report the outcome of this operation to the Botswana
Front Command?
MR SIGASA: Botswana Front Command was a - in fact we reported to the MHQ,
Military Headquarters. But the question, in fact we relied largely on press on radio
and TV at that time. So it was on the basis of what we read that we would know as
to the degree of the effect and so on about the operations and so on.
MS KHAMPEPE: No, I'm just asking whether you did report this particular
situation to the front command?
MR SIGASA: Yes, to the military headquarters.
MS KHAMPEPE: Would that be different from the front command that you've
referred to in your evidence?
MR SIGASA: Yes, that would - there's a distinction or there is a difference
between the front command and the military headquarters. Like in our case,
Johannes Nkosi Unit, we interfaced with Botswana Front Command as a service
centre so to speak. We would go to get some resources, information, update and so
on. But in terms of orders, activities and so on, we would deal with the military
headquarters in Zambia.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And when you reported the outcome of this particular
operation, did any personnel in the Military HQ say anything about the other
operations that had been conducted on other Wimpy outlets in the country?
MR SIGASA: No, at that time no, at that time no.
MS KHAMPEPE: And you are positive that you were not aware at all of the other
attacks on Wimpy outlets throughout the country?
MR SIGASA: Not at all. Like I said, it was only recently when one in fact read
about that and I tried to verify and so forth and seemingly not even our people or
MK members and so on were involved, but it was a recent thing. But at that time,
no, absolutely not.
MS KHAMPEPE: After the operation was conducted were you able to ascertain
whether any person from the Security Branch had been affected by this operation?
MR SIGASA: It becomes very difficult. At that time -I think I also indicated in the
submission that what we relied on, we were a liberation movement, we did not
have the resources, the machinery and so on to be able to gather that kind of
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information. We would rely on the public, the mass media and so on. But we
didn't. As a result we cannot deny or accept whether ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: How would you measure your successes then?
MR SIGASA: Measuring successes, we measured successes through, as I said we
relied on media but there would be a time when one would have to verify and so
forth but largely that's how we do. For an action taken or executed, that in itself
counts.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Given that, would you not have seen reports of heard reports
over the media about other blasts at other outlets of Wimpy?
MR SIGASA: Judge, we are talking about a situation of about almost 10 years ago.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR SIGASA: Yes. I do not recall personally the other except in the recent past.
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Sigasa, you must have, immediately after this operation had
been conducted, seen either on TV or in the printed media that the severity of
casualties suffered in this incident were those of civilians? And you have stated
that the policy of the ANC was to attack the military or the security forces. Indeed
that was the report you received from Mr Ndlovu, that this outlet was frequented
by the members of the Security Branch. What do you think you have achieved,
taking into account the fact that you are unable to identity a single member of the
security force, who fell casualty to this operation?
MR SIGASA: It's a bit difficult one as I was saying before. It is true firstly, that we
were interested in papers and reports and so on about what happened on the day in
question, the 30th of July, which by the way was the anniversary of the South
African Communist Party, we were interested indeed.
However, the question of the security personnel, it has in fact been - I think we all
know as South Africans, we are not coming from outside, that always where
enemy has been attacked they would always sensor or they would always conceal
or hide that kind of fact, such that they would always portray the ANC as a terrorist
organisation. No organisation for that matter has championed the course of
freedom, democracy and nation building like the African National Congress.
MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Sigasa, there are no further questions from me.
ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chair.
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Mr Sigasa, this Wimpy Bar, how far was it from the initial target, when you
switched from going to the initial target when you were told that they frequent the
Wimpy Bar?
MR SIGASA: I can only be able to say it's more than 200 metres away but several
metres away, but in terms of the actual distance, in terms of figures I'm unable to
say that but it is within the proximity as I'm saying because the Benoni Station is
here, railway station and also the police station is here and Wimpy down in town.
ADV MOTATA: No, I just wanted an approximate distance. I know that is
difficult because you wouldn't have measured. That suffices.
What I want to know, did the information received about the reconnaissance that
this Wimpy Bar is placed in a shopping complex?
MR SIGASA: Indeed, indeed, the report says as you are saying Chairperson,
except the only thing also that we want to add is that the enemy personnel was not
moving in isolation or its own country in its own boundaries, it was in fact actively
interacting with ordinary people and so on. So yes, we know that, it came to our
attention.
ADV MOTATA: The bombing device obtained from the dead letter box, did you
know its power in relation to the target selected?
MR SIGASA: The impact I do not remember whether we used a mini limpet or a
limpet mine, a super limpet mine. I think we used a limpet mine, not a mini one,
not a small one but a super limpet mine. That is what we used.
ADV MOTATA: And wouldn't you say that for instance is too powerful to be used
in a complex where even civilians would be caught in that blast?
MR SIGASA: Well it depends on the nature of the target, target intended, to select
the weaponry and the devices themselves. We saw it fit to use that kind of an
explosive at the time.
ADV MOTATA: Let's just return to what my sister was asking you about
constantly, that is the reconnaissance of Wimpy and the security personnel who
frequented Wimpy, according to the information or reports received from Ndlovu.
Firstly you said you were meeting on Wednesdays, do you recall that?
MR SIGASA: Yes.
ADV MOTATA: Now we know it's a long time ago, 10 years to date, could you
give us an approximation, every Wednesday is fine but an approximation of the
time taken? Obviously it couldn't have been years, but if we could probably have
an idea about months that you took.
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MR SIGASA: There was no specific time limit basically in regard to our meetings.
Depending firstly on the place, Sarati(?) does not draw the unnecessary attention,
or secondly, the agenda item that is to be discussed, so sometime we would take or
sometimes we would even adjourn and meet the following week or sometimes it
would take probably three hours or so, so there was no exact time spent.
ADV MOTATA: For instance let's say you had the initial target, being the Security
Police and their station and you had to change because you realised there is a much
more way of achieving your objective by saying: "Now we have recognised that
the frequent Wimpy". In relation to that, when was this somersault of the actual
target to the Wimpy Bar?
MR SIGASA: Well I wouldn't call it somersault. I remember on that, because our
plan was to celebrate or commemorate the anniversary, we planned something like
more than five operations and in those operations we were discussing about those,
and of course we might decide on one but depending on any information that
comes up during the course of discussion, we would always move to and from and
so on. But I wouldn't say that we spent so much time on this particular matter.
ADV MOTATA: Let's make it easier, in the sense that you received information
from your fellow comrade, Ndlovu, that the Security Police frequent he Wimpy
Bar, did you have information of how many members of the Security Branch go to
Wimpy?
MR SIGASA: Well we didn't have the number but we know that there were many.
It stems from the fact that they were meeting, as I said before, that they were
meeting every Saturday to give in reports and so on and they would also then go
after their reports or meetings and so on, they would then go for lunch or dining.
So it is based on that, but the exact number I am unable to you know, say.
ADV MOTATA: Did you have after submission of the reports, when they would
go to Wimpy?
MR SIGASA: Well the information, depending of course on how long they take,
but they would come in in the morning and so on and before lunch, lunch I would
imagine that what I'm talking about I'm referring to 1 o'clock, before lunch they
would in fact go out. Sometimes they would knock earlier than that, sometimes
they would come in at around about 11, 12, 1 and so on.
ADV MOTATA: So in relation to the number of the security people after
submitting their reports and going to Wimpy, did you take into consideration the
volume of people, whether the number of the Security Police would outnumber the
civilians who would visit Wimpy?
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MR SIGASA: Firstly it's important to draw the attention to the fact that in the
second world war, the people who suffered, the majority of the people who
suffered was not nazism or nazists but ordinary civilians, true.
I'm saying therefore, in terms of that in our view, a loss of one life of a security
personnel is too great to send a demoralising message on the part of the security
personnel.
ADV MOTATA: Your submission was to the effect that some of the attacks was to
strengthen the propaganda that would make people aware of the existence of the
MK's, the ANC people within the country by attacking military forces, did I hear
you correctly there?
MR SIGASA: The legitimate targets, yes. The nature of the ANC as I was saying,
liberation movement with limited means and resources, South Africa was
experiencing an armed propaganda period at that time. I would term it personally
an armed propaganda period because it was not a full scale war where fronts or
armies would meet and so on in a battlefront. You are talking about a guerrilla
tactic, an urban guerrilla tactic to hit visibly so that that operation is intended also
as well to mobilise and conscientise masses of the people about their presence.
ADV MOTATA: I'm asking you this because I just need explanations. You said
civilians were not your target, hence my question that by looking at Wimpy, taking
into account that in things as you have explained of this nature, civilians would be
touched in the process, but it would have been of paramount importance for
instance in your unit that you weigh up if you go to Wimpy, who are the most,
because in fairness to you before you give your explanation, we all know that this
was a Saturday and this particular Wimpy was placed in a shopping complex. Now
in terms of civilians vis-à-vis the security forces, we wanted to make our
propaganda most felt with the security people. Would I be right in that context?
MR SIGASA: No, not at all. I think all of us at that time I would imagine, we were
in the country. At that time when in Mamelodi a six year/eight year old run down
with a Hippo, then in return the reports would be that no, he was stoning the, she
will be run down to death by a Hippo armed vehicle, then the reports would be no,
she was stoning the armed vehicle. You talk of situation where people in schools,
children in schools would in fact be sjamboked, teargassed and be shot with live
ammunition. We are talking at that situation at that time when the mood of the
people was very high.
ADV MOTATA: That I do understand, that what you are answering is that people,
and in this instance blacks, would be attacked at random and reasons would be
found by the Security Police, that I understand completely, that such information
would not. But I'm saying in relation to say civilians were not uppermost in your
minds, you wanted to avoid by all means attacking civilians because the ANC
preaches non-racialism. And I want to say - my question is, this is a Saturday, this
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is a shopping complex, you have answered that the security people after delivering
their reports or deliberating on their reports, would then go for lunch there.
My question is, did you in the reconnaissance get data for instance, that: "Look,
despite the civilians going there we can't avoid that, but the majority would be the
security forces", that's the crux of my question.
MR SIGASA: I think that is what I said. Because I think it's important also to note
that we had the capacity at that time as a regional command structure. If we were
targeting civilians we had all the capacity, the armoury at our disposal to effect that
kind of terror, we didn't. With all, whatever push that the enemy forces were in fact
exercising, we didn't. But in this case we are saying in our submission that the
issue of Wimpy came as a result of the frequency of some of the people of the
Security Branch of the Benoni. It's as a resulted of that, well the least expected our
attack. That's how we carried out the operation. It's true that we took into account
the issue of civilians, yes we did.
MS KHAMPEPE: If I may ask ...[intervention]
MR SIGASA: I must also add that I also said in this statement, I'm repeating it,
that were life is lost whether black or white, it's a shame and we regret that greatly.
MS KHAMPEPE: If I may interpose Mr Motata.
What you are saying and you have already said is that you actually recognised that
the civilian casualty was something which was inevitable?
MR SIGASA: Absolutely.
ADV MOTATA: And to give a short answer, you did not have data of the question
I asked, you were just interested that civilian ...[intervention]
MR SIGASA: We had, I think I answered that we had data. We had data that
restaurant, as a restaurant is in fact attended by people of both colour. We had that
information, but the target of interest was of upper most importance to us,
particularly the blow that we were to unleash, that was important.
Though we took into account the presence of innocent lives or innocent civilians.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions. Thank you
Mr Sigasa.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sigasa, you know we understand that many atrocities were
committed in this country of ours. Some of them, until today, cannot be excused.
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But we are not here today to discuss that, we are here to discuss your application. I
can understand the anger of the people. But tell me, you say that the super limpet
was used at the Wimpy Bar as you recall?
MR SIGASA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: If there was no Wimpy there, what would be the operation then?
MR SIGASA: I think Judge, one question since we started, came in many forms. In
my submission, explanation or deliberation before, I said that it so happened,
unfortunately happened, to be Wimpy. But if they were going to be it another
restaurant or cafe or wherever, where we would define them as vulnerable to our
advantage, we would have used that opportunity.
CHAIRPERSON: I can understand that.
MR SIGASA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Purely as a military strategy, but let's assume that you did not
have, or your Unit did not have this information, or that these members of the
Security Forces did not frequent a restaurant, and therefore the option of planting a
bomb at a restaurant was not an option, how would you attack these personnel?
MR SIGASA: That was going in fact to be informed by reconnaissance activities
and so on. I am saying that because the actual objective at that time, because we
wanted to show or demonstrate to political activists who were detained and
tortured in Benoni Police station, we would have found another way.
CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your evidence, there was another way which
was changed then to the Wimpy. What was that other way?
MR SIGASA: The first thing we identified Benoni Police station, and initially if I
recall well, was that we would use ourselves when we go in as people who would
be visiting detainees and so on, with a pretext of visiting detainees and so on. But
we understand as well that the vigilance, because that is the enemy terrain, the
vigilance of that, but that was, but as a result we were saying particularly the
people who were inflicting terror in particular to our activists, should in fact be the
first targets.
So our concentration and focus was on them, hence that led to the Wimpy issue.
CHAIRPERSON: I can understand that the opportunity presented itself at the
Wimpy. My question is if the personnel was the target, why wasn't the bomb
planted at the Police station then? It is as simple as that?
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MR SIGASA: I think we indicated there were opportunities, the possible ways
where we can in fact hit. In terms of the situation as it stood then, we decided upon
the question of hitting where they were going to frequent. We changed from
planting, wanting to plant or make it a target, the Police station, because if you are
to plant it outside, the degree of impact as well was going to be very minimal.
CHAIRPERSON: You see when one, I need you to clarify this, by planting this
bomb, there was a point to be made that the military and the Security Forces were
the targets and they were the targets because the propped up the Apartheid regime
as I understand it, is that so?
MR SIGASA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Given that on the one hand, and on the other is the risk of
civilian life, why choose the latter?
MR SIGASA: It is important also to say that to register the presence in the minds
of people away from them, it becomes easier. It becomes easier for the enemy to
conceal, however, it becomes important for the registration of the presence of
Units of Umkhonto to be known to people.
It is in that context of struggling to popularise our presence and also send the
message home that people would see that there is war in the country going on.
CHAIRPERSON: But you would have attained that either way not so?
MR SIGASA: We didn't in Katlehong where there were hit in particular in an
isolated area. The enemy concealed and it spoke about some terrorists who have
shot and the report was very flimsy basically in regard to that. They always found a
way of explaining the failure on the part of the ANC or its military wing,
Umkhonto weSizwe.
MS KHAMPEPE: What you are basically saying Mr Sigasa ...[intervention]
MR KOOPEDI: May I interrupt you Honourable Committee Members, I have an
indication from the applicant that he wishes to use the loo.
MS KHAMPEPE: With pleasure.
CHAIRPERSON: There is only one more question.
MS KHAMPEPE: Will you take a question which in a way is - will you be able to
take that or do you want us to adjourn immediately?
MR SIGASA: Oh no, we can.
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MS KHAMPEPE: Okay. What you are basically saying is that you selected
Wimpy as a target, simply because it would facilitate your objectives of making
your presence felt by the regime because it was seemed to be a sitting duck, it was
vulnerable as opposed to the Police station. Is that what you are saying?
MR SIGASA: That is what I am saying, that it served two purposes. One, hitting
the Security personnel, but also publicising the ...(intervention)
MS KHAMPEPE: Yes, and you would be able to attain both objectives because
Wimpy Bar which was frequented by the Security Forces was also a vulnerable
entity as opposed to a Police station?
MR SIGASA: Yes, they were vulnerable in that.
MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: (s.u.o.)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sigasa. He is excused.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, sorry Mr Chairman, I would like the
Committee's indulgence, I have a few questions for the applicant, purely because I
received new information this incident, which I think is highly relevant that must
be put before the Committee. If you would bear with me Mr Chairman, I would
like to ask a few questions, and maybe make a few comments.
Some of, well, we are in the process of verifying the information, but I think the
information is highly relevant to this hearing. If you would allow me Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Why has it only come available now?
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, the information was not available to us when
this matter was investigated. After speaking to more of the victims appearing here,
and attending the hearing, it came out that actually as far as the victims are
concerned, that certain information must be put to the applicant.
CHAIRPERSON: Put it as propositions then.
MS KHAMPEPE: Before you proceed Mr Steenkamp, may we ascertain that we
have now been able to take proper and full instructions from the victims?
ADV STEENKAMP: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, to start off, I
would like to read from a newspaper clipping and then just a comment of the
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applicant, if needs be further information will be at hand, and if needs be, people
will be called to testify to this.
According to a newspaper article Mr Chairman, I might add this is an article that is
written apparently as article on a statement that was made by the ANC earlier this
year about this specific incident and with your indulgence Mr Chairman, I am just
going to read a specific paragraph. It is dated Friday, 6th of February 1998, and it
deals with this specific incident, the Wimpy bomb blast in 1988 and just for the
comment of the applicant, I am going to read the specific paragraph.
This document will be made available to you Mr Chairman and copies to ...
ADV MOTATA: Mr Steenkamp, for the record, from which newspaper is that
article?
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, sorry, it is from the Benoni City Times, dated
Friday, 6 February 1998. I am going to read paragraph 3 Mr Chairman.
The ANC statement said the Wimpy Bar operations were carried out by Umkhonto
weSizwe members, but due to confusion within the organisation, the attacks were
not in line with party policy.
It explained that the operations were launched after the ANC decided to take the
armed struggle into white areas, but that the party had not intended this to include
purely civilian targets. Mr Chairman, with your permission I will hand this
document in, preliminary as Exhibit A. If you would allow me Mr Chairman. I will
make copies available for everyone.
CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)
ADV STEENKAMP: Sorry, Mr Chairman, I beg your pardon, it must be Exhibit
B.
MR KOOPEDI: Mr Chairman, if you would allow me to come in here, I have not
had my learned friend give us the author of that statement and who in the ANC
may have made those utterances and we would appreciate getting that for him to be
able to respond properly.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, we are in the process of tying to obtain the
original statement from the ANC office.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, does it matter who the author was? He has been
asked if he can make a comment about what was written there, if he can't he can't.
If he can, he can.
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MR KOOPEDI: I will say with respect, that I got an indication from him that he
does not seem to be able to understand what that is about, but he wanted to know
he we know who the author is, so that he could make an appropriate comment.
Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Listen carefully then. Here is a report in the Benoni City Times,
dated the 6th of February 1998. The relevant paragraph which Mr Steenkamp
wants you to listen to and perhaps comment on, I am going to repeat.
The ANC statement said the Wimpy Bar operations were carried out by Umkhonto
weSizwe members, but due to confusion within the organisation, the attacks were
not in line with party policy.
Are you able to comment on that or not?
MR SIGASA: I am able to comment. First and foremost, I indicated or I said in my
submission or our submission, that it has never been a policy of the African
National Congress and Umkhonto weSizwe, to target civilians.
We did not target Wimpy as Wimpy for the sake of the lives of whites, we didn't. I
think conveniently here we did not see the point, or hear the point that we were
putting forth.
In fact the people who were meeting in Wimpy Bar were not just ordinary
Policemen. Benoni Police station, the Special Branch Headquarters of the Special
Branch in the East Rand. In fact in terms of the reports that we received, they
would meet as the top brass even other counterparts from other Police stations as
well.
So, the attack on Wimpy we must emphasise, was not an attack on Wimpy because
it is a restaurant to the vulnerable civilians. It wasn't. It happened to be hit because
of the nature of the target.
As we said, it is not just ordinary Police, that is why I said to us that one life was
critically important, because it had a demoralising effect on the part of the Security
personnel.
CHAIRPERSON: So what you are saying, what is contained in the newspaper
report, you agree with?
MR SIGASA: No, I don't.
CHAIRPERSON: You don't agree with it?
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MR SIGASA: No. And in fact to make one further comment, the ANC does not
always you know, communicate with the media, its people through the media
primarily because there is latitude.
A reporter can report the manner in which he understands and give his own or her
interpretation.
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Sigasa, are you saying in short, you have given us a very
lengthy answer to what is being put to you. You are saying in short that the Wimpy
attack was in line with the ANC policy? That seems to be the crux of the problem?
MR SIGASA: Because of the target of interest, yes, it is.
MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you. You may proceed Mr Steenkamp.
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman. You see my information is and if
needs be, a sworn statement to the effect will be handed in to the Committee, that
just across the Wimpy Bar, there was what at that stage was known as a Police
kiosk, it was a small shop that was hired by the Police as a kiosk, just across the
Wimpy Bar.
Now, my question to you is first of all, do you agree with me, and secondly, why
didn't you attack the kiosk and not the Wimpy Bar?
CHAIRPERSON: Did you know there was a kiosk?
MR SIGASA: No, we didn't.
ADV STEENKAMP: But sir, then I don't understand your evidence in chief, you
said on numerous occasions and on questions, at least two questions of the
Chairperson himself, that your information was verified.
MR SIGASA: Yes.
ADV STEENKAMP: You had numerous meetings?
MR SIGASA: Yes.
ADV STEENKAMP: So, if your information was verified, how does it come, or
how is it possible that you didn't know about this kiosk at all?
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Steenkamp, before you answer, isn't that an unfair question
to put to Mr Sigasa? His evidence in chief has been that the information that was
verified was the information that was received from Mr Ndlovu through his
reconnaissance and that information did not purport to say anything about the
presence of the kiosk?
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ADV STEENKAMP: Right, I will leave the question there Mr Chairman.
I also has come to my information, my information is and it is not verified as of
yet, we are in the process, but the Police station was not very close to the Wimpy
Bar, as you said, plus minus 200 metres. It was more or less a kilometre from the
Wimpy Bar? Would you agree with that?
MR SIGASA: I said I think the Advocate is twisting my words, I am not sure
whether deliberately or not, what I said was that it was more than 200 kilometres,
and in fact several metres away. That is what I said.
So to say 200 metres, I say it is more than that - than several metres away.
ADV STEENKAMP: At the day of the incident, you had planned this incident, you
have made reconnaissance, you had numerous meetings, so I take it at the day of
this incident, at twelve o'clock, you had verified information that there were going
to be Security Police at the Wimpy Bar, am I right?
MR SIGASA: Absolutely. Not also to add, not ordinary Policemen. I think that
should be clear. As we said, that we termed it the notorious Special Branch. The
Headquarters of the Special Branch, Springs, Boksburg and so on, in fact it is its
Headquarters, the Special Branch.
As a result of that, the impact or the degree of the action and its impact or the
results, they were important for us to identify that target and hit them where they
were vulnerable. For your own information, the information that you received, not
only were they meeting, that top brass that we were referring to, even the informers
were met in that Wimpy Bar.
Burgers were bought for detainees in that Wimpy Bar.
ADV STEENKAMP: Sorry sir, my question was purely this, so you had
information that at twelve o'clock that Saturday morning, specific Security Branch
Police would visit that Wimpy Bar?
MR SIGASA: No.
ADV STEENKAMP: Because that is how I understood your evidence?
MR SIGASA: No, I didn't.
CHAIRPERSON: Then you misunderstood his evidence.
ADV STEENKAMP: I am sorry Mr Chairman. Maybe I must rephrase the
question. Why did you specifically decide to attack the Wimpy Bar at that specific
Saturday at twelve o'clock, why specifically that day and that time?
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MR SIGASA: Well firstly, firstly the Security personnel as we indicated, they
work seven days a week, every day, and on Saturdays they meet to hand in reports
and so on and so forth, their daily duties and so forth, and after that of course, they
would go for the dining and so on, for lunches and so on. We had that information.
As to who and how many, we didn't know that, but we knew that there were
Policemen, particularly the senior people, meeting in that. Secondly, on that day,
we also indicated in our main submission that it was in fact a commemoration of
the anniversary of the South African Communist Party on the 30th of July.
ADV STEENKAMP: My information is also that the Benoni Wimpy Bar was
actually the last Wimpy Bar to be attacked in this type of fashion? This specific
Wimpy Bar attack was the last Wimpy Bar attacked, that was attacked in the spade
of Wimpy Bar attacks?
MR SIGASA: I don't know about that. That is news to me and I believe also it is
news also to the fellow applicants. That is news.
MS KHAMPEPE: You can only speak for yourself Mr Sigasa.
MR SIGASA: Oh yes, I am speaking for myself, that is news.
ADV STEENKAMP: Am I right in saying that you were well aware that there is a
real possibility that a large number of people would have been killed in that
Wimpy Bar, would be black people because I can tell you as a matter of fact, that
more than 20 people, more than 20 people in that Wimpy Bar were black people
who were injured?
The majority of them were workers, who were working in the Wimpy Bar, so you
knew very well beforehand that they were going to be injured or even killed?
CHAIRPERSON: What is the relevance of that question Mr Steenkamp?
ADV STEENKAMP: The fact is Mr Chairman, if you look at some of the other
applications, they are referring to a white only attack. My question to this applicant
mainly is this, they were aware that other civilians, normal civilians would also be
killed?
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Steenkamp, hasn't this point been sufficiently covered?
ADV STEENKAMP: I will leave the question there, thank you Mr Chairman.
MS KHAMPEPE: Because I think if I recall, it has been covered by yourself
previously and also by the members of the panel.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, thank you for the indulgence.
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CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
AMNESTY HEARING
DATE: 7TH SEPTEMBER 1998
NAME: TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE
MATTER: WIMPY BAR BOMBING AND OTHERS
DAY: 1
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------MR KOOPEDI: Mr
Chairman, our next applicant will be Mr Tebogo Kebotlhale. May we call him
through.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you.
ADV STEENKAMP: Page 5 - 11, Mr Chairman.
MR KOOPEDI: May I say Mr Chairman, for the benefit of our Interpreters, that all
the applicants intend using the English language.
TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Mr Chairman. You are one of
the applicants in this matter, is that correct?
MR KEBOTLHALE: That is so.
MR KOOPEDI: Perhaps before you tell this Honourable Committee about your
involvement in the Johannes Nkosi Unit, would you briefly tell them who you are,
where you were born, when did you join the ANC?
MR KEBOTLHALE: My name is Tebogo Kebotlhale. I was born on the 14th of
November 1967 in Hohodi in Vryburg. I am 30 years of age. I joined Umkhonto
weSizwe underground unit in Hohodi in 1983 and I underwent internal training,
internal military training.
I left for exile in February 1985 and underwent military training in Angola, Cuba
and the former USSR. I was trained in the use of various weapons and underwent
specialised training on military engineering and urban suburban guerrilla warfare.
I had been a Section Commander, the Platoon Commander and Company
Commander and Sub-Regional Commissar in the East Rand in my career in
Umkhonto weSizwe.
I was infiltrated in the country in 1987, I operated in Bloemfontein area and later
redeployed to the East Rand. I trained and armed various internal MK recruits in
the East Rand and elsewhere.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, have you got a copy of that statement?
MR KOOPEDI: The biographical details that he has just given to you, we are
trying to get a copy done. We will most probably be able to hand it over in a short
while, however, I wish to point out that it will only be the biographical details,
there is no statement prepared by him for the process.
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The only statement is the one that I believe has been handed in. The one done by
the previous applicant. Have you done?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes, I am through. I agree with all that my Commander has
presented before the Commission and everybody.
MR KOOPEDI: For the purposes of your application in the matters before this
Committee, would you confirm that other than being a member of the Johannes
Nkosi Unit, were you involved in any manner whatsoever in the Wimpy matter and
if so, how were you involved?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I was only involved in the Wimpy matter in so far as the
planning was concerned.
MR KOOPEDI: Would it be correct to say that at all times when the planning was
done and whatever decisions were taken, you were present?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I was present, yes.
MR KOOPEDI: And you also take full responsibility for whatever came out of that
decision?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes, I do.
MR KOOPEDI: Now, would you also confirm that in as far as it relates to the
attack on the "Kitskonstabels" in Lindelani Section in Katlehong, what was your
involvement there?
MR KEBOTLHALE: My involvement also included the planning part of it, the
distribution of ammunition and the support provided to members of my fellow
Unit.
MR KOOPEDI: And you would therefore confirm that in fact you are responsible
for whatever consequences that came after making the decision during the planning
sessions?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: That is all from this witness for now.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: So you are only making application in respect of two incidents,
the attack, the blast at the Wimpy in Benoni and the attack in Katlehong on the
"Kitskonstabels"?
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MR KOOPEDI: May I interrupt you with respect Mr Chairman, that in fact, he like
all the other applicants, are making - have made applications for various offences,
however, from communicating with my learned friend on the other side, it appears
that with other matters, this can be dealt with as Chamber matters, because perhaps
people may not have been injured, however there is a list of the offences for which
they apply for and this appears on the statement that I believe is before you, the
one that was presented by the first applicant.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, all I am asking is for what he is making an
application today so that when we give the judgement, either we grant or refuse an
application in respect of specific incidents.
That is all I am asking. Am I correct then that we have to consider an application in
respect of the blast at Wimpy Bar at Benoni and the Katlehong attack on the
"Kitskonstabels"?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Honourable Judge, if I may refer you to page 10 of our main
submission.
MR KOOPEDI: He is actually referring to the submission by the previous
applicant.
CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit A?
MR KOOPEDI: Yes, Exhibit A.
MR KEBOTLHALE: On page 10, there we have enumerated the list of operations
that we carried as the Johannes Nkosi Unit and we have also made specific
reference, specific mention of who carried what operation.
MS KHAMPEPE: But what are you applying for amnesty, in respect of which
incident are you seeking amnesty?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I am applying for amnesty for the bombing of the whites
only bus terminus in Germiston.
MS KHAMPEPE: Yes, as appearing on page 12 of our application documents.
MR KEBOTLHALE: I am also making application for the bombing of the
"Kitskonstabels" barracks in Mnisi Section.
MS KHAMPEPE: Yes. Is that all that you are seeking amnesty for?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes.
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MS KHAMPEPE: What about the fact that you have just stated that you were
involved in the Wimpy matter in so far as its planning was concerned. Are you not
seeking amnesty for that?
MR KEBOTLHALE: That would include, that would include the two operations
that were discussed extensively earlier on. The Wimpy one and the ambush on the
"Kitskonstabels".
MS KHAMPEPE: We have to be very clear Mr Kebotlhale, in respect of which
incident you are seeking amnesty. You have just stated now when you were being
questioned, that you are seeking amnesty in respect of the bombing of the
Katlehong Police barracks and also in respect of the bombing of the Germiston
whites only terminus?
MR KEBOTLHALE: If I may mention, I am also making application for the
bombing of Wimpy itself and the application for the bombing of the attack on the
"Kitskonstabels" in Lindela Section.
CHAIRPERSON: How many is that now? Four?
MR KEBOTLHALE: That would also include the bombing of the railway line, the
electrical sub-station in Katlehong.
MS KHAMPEPE: Why were these incidents not included in your application? In
your formal application for amnesty, form 1?
MR KEBOTLHALE: If you may refer to page 6 of the bundle of documents, we
are mentioning there that, I am mentioning there that the
Benoni/Duduza/Katlehong actions were involved, and if you look into 9.8(1) I am
saying there the acts include issuing out of instructions and carrying out attacks on
Wimpy outlet, South African personnel and councillors and whites only bus
terminus. I have eloquently stated that in my application.
MS KHAMPEPE: Oh, thank you very much Mr Kebotlhale. I have actually looked
at your further particulars which appears on page 12 and 13 and I had overlooked
that one. I think it has not been very clear and that is why it is important for us to
make sure that we in a way detail all the incidents, so that we don't loose sight of
what you are applying for.
MR KEBOTLHALE: Thank you.
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Kebotlhale, maybe if we can again for purposes of the
record, enumerate once more the incidents in respect of which you are seeking
amnesty. Can you do that?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes.
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MS KHAMPEPE: Make use of page 10 and tell us exactly which incidents we
should be considering you for amnesty.
MR KEBOTLHALE: The bombing of "Kitskonstabels" barracks in Mnisi Section.
MS KHAMPEPE: Yes.
MR KEBOTLHALE: The bombing of the sewerage pipes in Sanwat Park.
MS KHAMPEPE: Yes.
MR KEBOTLHALE: Ambush on the "Kitskonstabels" and SAP in Motsamai
Section. Bombing of Benoni in Wimpy. Bombing of the rail line and electrical sub-
station next to Katlehong station.
MS KHAMPEPE: Yes.
MR KEBOTLHALE: And lastly the whites only bus terminus in Germiston.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, now you say that in the Katlehong "Kitskonstabels"
attack your involvement was planning and distribution of ammunition.
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes, I also included you know, providing support to the
attack.
CHAIRPERSON: What kind of support?
MR KEBOTLHALE: As my fellow applicants were attacking, I stood by in the car
and I drove them after retreating.
CHAIRPERSON: So you drove the getaway car?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: The sewerage pipes, what did you do there, how were you
involved there?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I supplied the ammunition.
CHAIRPERSON: That is all?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes, I supplied the ammunition and I was part of the
planning thereof.
CHAIRPERSON: The ambush on the "Kitskonstabels" at Mindela?
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MR KEBOTLHALE: I have already answered that Honourable Judge, by saying
that I provided support. I drove the getaway car.
I also issued out ammunition in that respect.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
ADV MOTATA: But I need some clarity Chairperson, that my understanding
when we started with the first incident, we have two here, the "Kitskonstabels" in
Mnisi Section and we have the "Kitskonstabels" in Motsamai Section.
We want to know in respect of each, that is why we are enumerating them so that
we get clarity.
MR KEBOTLHALE: With respect to "Kitskonstabels" in Mnisi Section, I
personally together with my fellow applicant Alfas Mabore Ndlovu, executed that
operation, I supplied the ammunition thereof and I took part in that incident.
ADV MOTATA: When you say you took part, what did you do?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I left a boobytrapped limpet mine.
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Kebotlhale, I note that you have referred to a bombing of the
Katlehong Police barracks, is that the same incident as the bombing of the
"Kitskonstabels" in Mnisi Section?
MR KEBOTLHALE: That is right, yes.
MS KHAMPEPE: And that appears on page 13 of your further particulars? Is that
the same incident?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes.
MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: You dealt with the bombing of the Wimpy Bar.
MR KEBOTLHALE: Sorry, I didn't get that.
CHAIRPERSON: You have already dealt with the bombing of the Wimpy Bar.
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: What about the bombing of the railway line?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I have provided ammunition for the bombing of the railway
line, and I took part in the planning thereof.
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CHAIRPERSON: And the sub-station at Katlehong?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I took part in the planning and provided the ammunition
thereof.
CHAIRPERSON: And the bus terminus?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I executed that operation myself.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Steenkamp?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, if I
may just ask a question on the application. Sir, I see in your application you are
referring to attacks on Wimpy outlets, page 6. Are you only referring to one
Wimpy now or is it more than one?
MR KEBOTLHALE: No, it should read Wimpy outlet, not lets.
ADV STEENKAMP: And you are also referring to attacks on councillors? Is this
not now part of your list?
MR KEBOTLHALE: The councillors feature in so far as the operation of our sub-
Units were concerned, and I think my Commander has elaborated on the operations
of those Units.
CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)
MR KEBOTLHALE: I was involved ...
CHAIRPERSON: Let me be quite fair to you, you are not making any application
now in respect of attacks on Councillors or are you?
MR KEBOTLHALE: No, I am making that application in so far as our Unit helped
in the execution of those. In so far as our Unit planned the execution of those
incidents.
CHAIRPERSON: You know, as a panel we have a problem with that. One cannot
get or obtain amnesty for something one didn't to or one was unaware of.
Now, you say that you are accepting liability for certain things that the sub-Units
did. We need a bit more, were you involved or not?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I was not personally involved in the executions of those
actions.
CHAIRPERSON: We are not only talking about executions, we are talking about
planning and in any way assisting in that operation.
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MR KEBOTLHALE: Judge, I would say that I did not plan those operations, but I
took part in terms of distributing ammunition for the execution of those operations
themselves.
CHAIRPERSON: And you knew for what purpose the ammunition was being
distributed?
MR KEBOTLHALE: For - yes, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Who are these Councillors and were they injured or did they die
or did they loose property or what?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I think, I would not say for sure who the Councillors are,
because we did not get you know, concise reports from Units and because of the
lack of constant, given the conditions under which we operated, it was very
difficult to get the concise reports.
CHAIRPERSON: So you are not in a position to tell us Councillor X was a victim
of a particular operation?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes, I am not in a position to tell that.
CHAIRPERSON: So therefore we don't know, neither do you know whether you
are guilty of anything in respect of those Councillors? It may never have taken
place, not so?
MR KEBOTLHALE: No, we know for a fact that our Units have carried out
operations against Councillors.
CHAIRPERSON: On who?
MR KEBOTLHALE: We have made mention, the Commander has made mention
in our main submission, we mentioned the Basil February Unit which carried out
attacks in Duduza and KwaThema.
CHAIRPERSON: Now we know where and perhaps we know when. Who?
MR KEBOTLHALE: That I don't know Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Steenkamp?
ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, the same page refers to handgrenade attacks or grenade
attacks there. Grenade, paragraph 9(iv), grenade attacks. What was this because
you said according to your initial list you are talking about limpet mines, but here
you indicate in your application grenade attacks, ambushes and booby traps, but
what about the grenade attacks, what was this?
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MR KEBOTLHALE: I would indicate for sure that grenades were mostly used in
attacks against Councillors.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you put a time frame on this, and where did this
happen?
MR KEBOTLHALE: That happened in 1988.
ADV STEENKAMP: And were anybody injured?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I am not sure.
ADV STEENKAMP: And of how many incidents are we talking here, one, two,
three or four incidents?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I would not strike a total recall as to how many of those, but
it is more than one.
ADV STEENKAMP: Are you saying your whole Unit was involved in these
attacks?
MR KEBOTLHALE: In so far as I have indicated earlier on, with regard to the
planning, with regard to the distribution of ammunition, issuing combat orders.
ADV MOTATA: Just to interpose here Mr Steenkamp, let's look at the main
submission, page 7, you make reference Sub Units, do you have that? We look at
the different print, do you see the different print and it says blowing of a Police van
in Duduza with a limpet mine. Were people injured, or the Police who were
driving that van, injured?
MR KEBOTLHALE: The report I could indicate before the panel is that the Police
were there you know, playing soccer and that is how they got attacked at that
soccer field.
MS KHAMPEPE: Are you applying for amnesty in regard of that incident?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I have indicated already that in so far as I was part of
distributing ammunition and I was part of the issuing out of orders to the Units to
carry out those attacks. I did not personally execute that incident.
CHAIRPERSON: You don't know if those operations were successful? You don't
know if attempts to carry it out, were made, is that not so?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I would not for sure say that.
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MS KHAMPEPE: I thought you had enumerated the incidents in respect of which
amnesty was being sought, and that is not one of the incidents you have
enumerated?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I am not applying for that incident, I am not applying for
amnesty.
MS KHAMPEPE: I am confused Mr Kebotlhale. We want you to respond to
incidents in which you are applying for amnesty.
MR KEBOTLHALE: I did not include the Basil February operations, I am not
applying for amnesty for those operations.
MS KHAMPEPE: Yes, now I have understood you to be saying that Mr Sigasa has
already referred in detail to the February operations, which you have alluded to
have included the attack on Councillors, and as I read the submission, because I
thought probably I had left something or something had escaped my memory,
when I read his reference to the February sub-Unit, there is no reference, there is
no evidence that I can deduce about the attack on Councillors, and that appears on
page 7, that is where the February Unit is being referred to.
MR KOOPEDI: If you will allow me Mr Chairman and Honourable Committee
Member, may I try to explain something which perhaps would clarify the problem
we have now.
If we look at page 4 I believe, yes page 4 of the bundle of documents that has been
supplied to us, we have an (indistinct) which tries to tell or to show how this Unit
was. The incidents that are enumerated on page 7, would have been incidents
which were planned and carried out by the people who appear there on the block
written Johannes Nkosi Unit.
However, these people were also a command structure which had sub-Units. I
believe what the applicant is saying now is that he would wish to apply for
amnesty, that is above the things enumerated on page 7 of Exhibit A, he would
wish to apply for amnesty for other acts which may have been carried out by the
sub-Units.
MS KHAMPEPE: Are you using the word may have been, deliberately Mr
Koopedi?
MR KOOPEDI: With respect I am, and let me explain why. It has been stated on
that page 7, that it has not been possible to make contact with those Units for
verification and confirmation purposes. As matters stand, applicant here was in a
command structure, which below it, were sub-Units.
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He does not know whether those Units still exist today. However, he thinks that
because at that time it was not within the law to have arms or to supply arms to
other people, he is therefore mentioning those. He was not personally involved in
the execution of those, and that is why it becomes difficult for him to explain what
happened and when did that happen if these were actions carried out by the Unit.
MS KHAMPEPE: Yes, I understand that. I really need clarification.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, are you acquainted or are you aware of the
judgement in the case that is commonly known as the ANC application?
MR KOOPEDI: I am, in fact I handled that matter, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Isn't this particular instance a matter similar to that?
MR KOOPEDI: I would argue not, it is not. What we are saying here is, well, let
me first start by saying that those applications, the ANC applications we are
referring to, are called Declaration Applicants. These are applicants who attached
some declaration to their applications, but this is not the case in this instance.
Here we have an applicant who states where he belongs, who states fully what he
did, but who also feels that it is his duty for the purposes of this hearing, for the
purposes of reconciliation, to state that there were sub-Units which I have assisted,
which I have armed. However, I am unable to say what they did and I believe it
will then be on this Honourable Committee to decide that, no, we are not
entertaining what your sub-Units did simply because of the rationale that you
cannot give amnesty to a person for something he didn't know it occurred, but he
feels it is his duty to inform this Honourable Committee and in fact everybody
here, that he armed those people and they were his sub-Unit. As to what they did,
he may not have the facts.
MS KHAMPEPE: But is he not saying what the sub-Units did? He is saying they
attacked Councillors, that is what he is saying?
MR KOOPEDI: It is indeed so Madam Commissioner, that he is saying that they
attacked Councillors, however, he does not know when, that is the date, he does
not know which Councillor, and had it been possible for him to confirm these, he
would be saying with certainty, but because he doesn't know who was attacked, he
only knows that Councillors were attacked. That is why he is saying so.
MS KHAMPEPE: How does he know that Councillors were attacked as a result of
the weapons that he supplied to the sub-Units?
MR KEBOTLHALE: By virtue of grenades having been used in some instances in
areas where I distributed some.
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MS KHAMPEPE: Were you the Commander of the sub-Units that you supplied
ammunition to?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I was the Commander in so far as I belonged to the
command structure.
MS KHAMPEPE: And were you not therefore kept abreast with the execution of
the operations that you yourself have stated that you gave instructions to?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes, I was kept abreast, but the information was not
complete in most of the instances. We did not get finer details, given the
circumstances under which we operated there.
MS KHAMPEPE: At page 6 of the bundle of documents, that is your formal
application, you say that you issued out instructions and carried out attacks. The
you enumerate the incidents, then you say on Wimpy outlets, SAP personnel,
Councillors and whites only bus terminus. Did you issue out instructions on the
attack of Councillors?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Let me explain this. Given all the Units that we commanded,
we visited them at all times, regularly if we had time and we would actually give
out instructions to carry out attacks against the Councillors in pursuit of the
objective of rendering the 1988 October Municipal elections a farce.
MS KHAMPEPE: Did you personally issue out instructions to your sub-Units on
Councillors?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes, I did.
MS KHAMPEPE: And were any reports given to you subsequently those
instructions having been issued by you, were any reports given to you on the
execution of those operations?
MR KEBOTLHALE: No reports were given, but I know that in areas where I have
distributed grenades, Councillors were attacked.
MS KHAMPEPE: Did you not find out from your sub-Units how the execution
had been carried out, on whom of the Councillors the attack had been ...
MR KEBOTLHALE: I had not been able to do so.
MS KHAMPEPE: Why not?
MR KEBOTLHALE: It was very difficult, we were operating under very difficult
conditions at that time.
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MS KHAMPEPE: But how would you be able to measure the success or the failure
of your sub-Unit if such information was not furnished to you?
MR KEBOTLHALE: We depended largely on the media reports, the print and
television reports.
MS KHAMPEPE: Why not your sub-Units, these are people who are very close to
you? Why should you depend on the media that you didn't trust?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes, I am saying that it was very difficult for us to get exact
information, given the circumstances under which we operated.
MS KHAMPEPE: In conclusion for what it is worth, you are saying you are
seeking amnesty in respect of the attack on the Councillors and the weapons that
you supplied on your sub-Unit in the attack of those Councillors. Is that what you
are seeking amnesty for?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes.
ADV MOTATA: But it goes further than that, if you have regard to the bundle,
page 7, you are saying there have been injury of several Policemen and
Councillors, but from what my sister has been asking you, it would appear you
have no information as regards whether Policemen were killed, Councillors were
killed or injury caused to them?
MR KEBOTLHALE: This I got from the newspaper and media reports.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Steenkamp?
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman. Sir, can you explain to the
Committee exactly how did you see your political motive, or how did you
understand the political motive or can you describe your political motive for
attacking the Wimpy Bar?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes, I would, this matter I think has been dealt with
extensively by my Commander.
CHAIRPERSON: We want to know how you saw it.
MR KEBOTLHALE: Oh yes. That was part of taking the war to the white areas. It
was part of celebrating the 67th anniversary of the South African Communist
Party, and that was actually intended to remove the honeymoon out of the
television screens.
Removing the honeymoon out of television screens actually meant in everyday life
of our television, we would see people sitting in beaches, people sitting in nice
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places, not portraying the exact situation which was happening in the townships,
which was happening in churches, which was happening in schools.
People were being shot at by the Police, people were being killed by the Police on
a daily basis in the township. That was not properly projected into the media.
CHAIRPERSON: So, the Wimpy Bar was specifically targeted for that purpose?
MR KEBOTLHALE: It was also part of the armed propaganda.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Are you sure about that answer?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes, it was part of the armed propaganda.
CHAIRPERSON: So as far as you are concerned, and you must correct me if I am
wrong, the attack on the Wimpy Bar, was not essentially because it was frequented
by members of the Security Police?
MR KEBOTLHALE: No, that is wrong. Sorry, can the Judge repeat that for me
please?
CHAIRPERSON: You told me that, and I understand your evidence to be that the
attack on the Wimpy Bar here in Benoni was to remove the honeymoon off the
television screens?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And you also told me that Wimpy in Benoni was specifically
targeted for that and also that it was part of taking the war to the white areas?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that correct?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Given that, I asked you are you sure of your answers, and you
said yes. I said well, I am concerned because there is the prospect of Wimpy being
targeted and blasted because it was frequented by members of the Security Police
and then you said, no, that is wrong?
MR KEBOTLHALE: It shouldn't have been like that, it was attacked because it
was frequented by the top brass of the Police. These other things were just part of
it, taking the war to the white areas, and accelerating the armed conflict.
CHAIRPERSON: What did you then understand my question to be when you
answered?
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MR KEBOTLHALE: I thought you were saying that Wimpy was attacked because
it was frequented by the Police?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you understood correctly. You said it was not so.
MR KEBOTLHALE: Then I did not understand it in that sense.
CHAIRPERSON: How did you understand it then, because you repeat my question
in essence and you understood it correctly.
MR KEBOTLHALE: What I am saying is that Wimpy Bar was attacked.
CHAIRPERSON: I know you are saying that, we all know it was attacked. The
question is why?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Because it was frequented by the top brass of the Police
personnel.
CHAIRPERSON: Now, when I asked you that just now, you said no, that is not so.
MR KEBOTLHALE: It must have been a mistake on my part, but I did not mean
to say that.
CHAIRPERSON: Why did you make the mistake?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Maybe I did not understand.
CHAIRPERSON: No, you did understand it, because you still understand the
question correctly.
It is precisely what I asked you. I am asking why you made a mistake then?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Because I did not understand the question clearly.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Steenkamp.
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman. Sir, am I correct in saying that the
attack on the Wimpy Bar was mainly to create and to instill fear amongst the
people, among the civilians in that specific area?
MR KEBOTLHALE: That would be incorrect.
ADV STEENKAMP: Are you sure?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes.
ADV STEENKAMP: Did you understand my question correctly?
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MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can I read from your own application on page 8? Mr
Koopedi, can he please read for himself. I read paragraph 1 therein. All the actions
above constitute part of the overall conspiracy and strategy to bring about
instability and instill fear in those who served in structures of Apartheid. Is that
now right or is that now wrong?
MR KEBOTLHALE: That is right.
ADV STEENKAMP: But my question was was the attack on the Wimpy not part
of this?
MR KOOPEDI: With respect Mr Chairman, I think we are having a problem of my
learned friend putting it that the attack on Wimpy was for this reason and I think
what he is saying is that it was not only for that one reason. You know there are a
number of issues involved, not the one reason.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you rephrase the question.
ADV STEENKAMP: I will do so, thank you Mr Chairman. My question was
simply, I didn't say it was the only reason, I asked you was it a reason and you said
no. That is how I understood you.
MR KEBOTLHALE: You see, it was not intended to instill fear on civilians. For
those who served in Apartheid structures, the Special Branch in Benoni was part of
the Apartheid structure.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can I just ask you then this, why didn't you include in your
amnesty application that your attack on the Wimpy was mainly to deal with the
Security Branch who was frequenting this place, why didn't you include this at all
in your amnesty application, at all?
Even in the further particulars that you were asked, you didn't include this at all?
Can you explain this?
MR KEBOTLHALE: You see, it was the personnel that served in the Apartheid
structure which frequented Wimpy, and I think that explanation suffices.
CHAIRPERSON: The question is why isn't it included in your application?
MR KEBOTLHALE: It is included in the application. If you go through and if you
can go through page 8 there.
MS KHAMPEPE: Yes, can you start from page 7, see under paragraph 10(a) a
question is asked, state political objective sought to be achieved in committing the
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act in which you are applying for amnesty, for which you are applying for
amnesty, and you then starting from page 7, respond by stating what you have
stated and Mr Steenkamp's question is to this extent and this extent only, why have
you not stated that the reason for attacking the Wimpy Bar was to attack the
members of the Security Police, that does not appear?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I think we are saying here that, we are talking about those
who served in the structures of Apartheid, and that includes the Special Branch in
Benoni who frequented that area.
MS KHAMPEPE: But you see the words that you have used, the choice of words
that you used in response in particular to paragraph 10(a), you have stated that the
reason, the political objective you sought to achieve was to deprive the then South
African State the monopoly of violence used and create an environment and
climate of war, particularly in towns and places used for leisure and entertainment
by whites.
That is Mr Steenkamp's problem, there is no mention there specifically of attacking
members of the Security Force. That is the explanation you must give to Mr
Steenkamp.
MR KEBOTLHALE: The understanding of the statement is that those who served
in the Defence Force, those who served in the Police, would after having carried
out operations against you know, innocent people, used the Wimpy, they would
use the cinemas and whatever places as leisure places, and these people would be
construed to be ordinary civilians. This is what this insinuates in that paragraph.
MS KHAMPEPE: But you yourself had decided to use the word entertainment by
whites, you didn't say entertainment by members of the Security Force?
MR KEBOTLHALE: No, but if you would notice that the whites there is "whites",
that is what it was intended to express.
ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, can you just tell us from whom did you get your
instructions in specifically carrying out the Wimpy Bar attack or the Katlehong
attack, both those incidents, from whom did you receive your instructions?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I think the Commander has dealt with the matter by saying
that we meet every Wednesday to review, to plan and take decisions.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you tell me who is the person called Vusi, do you know
who Vusi was?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Vusi, yes I know who he was. I know him by the name of
Vusi. He served in the front command in Botswana. I don't know his other name.
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ADV STEENKAMP: You see again sir, unfortunately if I look at your amnesty
application, page 9, paragraph 11(b) the question there is who gave such order and
approval, you didn't refer to your Commanding Officer, applicant 1, you referred to
Mr Vusi.
Can you elaborate on that?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes, in so far as Vusi served as a post box in the front
command.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can I ask you then maybe just before I go to the Wimpy Bar
attack, why didn't you refer to the first applicant and say he was my Commanding
Officer and I received my instructions from him? Why didn't you state it there?
MR KEBOTLHALE: That has been stated on page 9.
CHAIRPERSON: What has been stated?
MR KEBOTLHALE: That I received commands from a person known only to me
as Vusi.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is not the question. The question is why didn't you in
answer to that question say that the first applicant, the first witness in fact gave me
the orders. That is the question.
MR KEBOTLHALE: He did not give me orders because we would sit in a
plannery to decide on actions to take.
ADV STEENKAMP: Coming to the Wimpy Bar attack, what information did you
have, or what information did you receive about the Wimpy Bar before deciding to
attack it?
Did you get reports and from whom did you get the reports, or did you have
informers, how did you manage to get the information on the Wimpy Bar?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I think we have explained this. We have also mentioned it in
our main submission, that we were sitting every Wednesday to give individual
commands as a command structure, and we would then discuss, deliberate on
individual reports, make recommendations and take decisions on the basis of that
information.
The main source of information with regard to Wimpy came from fellow applicant
Alfas.
ADV STEENKAMP: So he informed you about the Wimpy Bar and the possibility
of a target and all that, am I right?
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MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes, by way of reporting to the Unit, yes.
ADV STEENKAMP: And who decided ultimately that the Wimpy Bar should be
attacked, was it you or who was it?
MR KEBOTLHALE: All of us, we decided on it.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you explain to me, at the time why did you think the
Wimpy Bar, or how did you see the Wimpy Bar as a military target, or did you see
it then, can you explain to me how did you see it as a legitimate target, let's put it
that way?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I think the matter has been answered by my fellow applicant
in his submission that the place was frequented by top brass Security personnel.
ADV STEENKAMP: What would you say to the possible question or the possible
information that I attained, that the attack on the Wimpy Bar as far as the official
ANC statement goes, was not part and parcel of ANC policy?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Can you repeat the question for me please.
ADV STEENKAMP: According to information we received which is not verified,
what is your comment if I make the suggestion or if I tell you according to the
ANC's official statement, the attack on the Wimpy Bar, this specific Wimpy Bar,
was not part and parcel of the ANC policy at the time?
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Steenkamp, won't you rephrase your question because there
hasn't been any evidence led before us to suggest that the information that is
contained in the press report, is official ANC information?
ADV STEENKAMP: You have heard, you have listened to my comment on the
newspaper remark, you have heard that, am I right?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I think it has been ...
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you comment?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes, it has been explained that Wimpy became the target in
so far as it was frequented by that Security personnel.
It was an area which became an interest, a target of interest to us, in so far as the
Security personnel frequented the area.
ADV STEENKAMP: Did you verify the information that you got from Mr
Ndlovu, that at that stage Security Branch Police Officers and high brass as you
call them, would most probably have visited that Wimpy Bar on that Saturday?
Did you have information to that extent?
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MR KEBOTLHALE: It has just been explained that we got information from the
former detainees and we also relied extensively on the information forthcoming
from Mr Ndlovu.
ADV STEENKAMP: That on that specific Saturday, please help me if I am wrong,
that on that specific Saturday, Security Branch high brass will visit the Wimpy Bar
at twelve o'clock, is that what you are saying?
MR KEBOTLHALE: No, I think that you must understand that we are not saying
that the Security Branch personnel stayed in Wimpy. We have information to the
extent that these people frequented the area, they met there.
ADV STEENKAMP: No, no, sir, I am talking about this specific day. Why did
you decide to attack the Wimpy Bar on this specific day?
The only reason I can see is because on that specific day, there was a possibility or
you had very good information, that Security Branch Police will be at the Wimpy
Bar, high brass?
MR KEBOTLHALE: They frequented the area and we have indicated previously
that on Saturdays they held meetings there to give reports, and to debrief and
whatever, as it was explained earlier.
ADV STEENKAMP: Am I right in saying, please help me if I am wrong, you
didn't have any verified or any confirmed information that on that specific day, on
that specific time, twelve o'clock that Security high brass Police would visit the
place? You didn't have any information of that sort at all am I right?
MR KEBOTLHALE: No, you are wrong.
ADV STEENKAMP: What is the answer then sir, in other words, please help me.
What you are saying is you had information ...
MR KEBOTLHALE: That they frequented ...
ADV STEENKAMP: Can I please finish my question, you had information that on
this specific Saturday, this specific incident which happened on I think the 13th of
June, 30th of July sorry, at twelve o'clock, you had information that on that day
high brass Security Branch Police will be in that place. Did you have information
to this extent, can you answer me just that please first?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Not that they will be in that place, but we knew that it was a
norm that after having had discussions in their offices they would go have lunch
there and have tea there.
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CHAIRPERSON: What you are saying is it was the normal thing to happen and
you expected them to be there?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes.
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman. Can I ask you according to our
information there was a Police kiosk which was situated in a small shop across the
Wimpy Bar, that was actually manned on a full time basis by the Police. Why
didn't you decide to attack that kiosk than the Wimpy Bar?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Personally I did not know of the existence of the kiosk.
ADV STEENKAMP: Are you saying you didn't know about this kiosk at all?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes, I am saying I did not know of the existence of the kiosk
in that area.
ADV STEENKAMP: Who did the reconnaissance on this Wimpy Bar, do you
know who was involved there? Can you give us a name of the group who was
responsible for this, and who reported to you?
MR KEBOTLHALE: It is not a group, it is Alfas Ndlovu.
ADV STEENKAMP: And he never reported to you that there actually was a Police
kiosk there?
MR KEBOTLHALE: No. Not that he did not report, but he reported on the matter
that he was dealing with, and that was Wimpy.
ADV STEENKAMP: So did he report there was a Police kiosk?
MR KEBOTLHALE: He could not report on the existence of the kiosk. The kiosk
was not an area of interest to us. He reported on the matter that we handled, that
was Wimpy at that time.
ADV STEENKAMP: Sorry Mr Chairman, if I have to repeat myself, I don't want
to labour this point. Just before I step off this issue, one thing I can't understand
you wanted to attack the structures which supported Apartheid, among them Police
or Security Police. But in this issue, you decide not to attack this Police kiosk
which was full of Police.
MR KEBOTLHALE: I think Mr Steenkamp, the matter has been dealt with, we
explained that situation in length in our main submission and it was explained by
the Commander.
Our area of interest was in Wimpy and if there was existence of any Police kiosk
nearby or opposite, that I did not know.
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ADV STEENKAMP: Do you have any other information on other, or do you
know, do you have any knowledge on the other Wimpy's that was attacked by
ANC or MK members?
MR KEBOTLHALE: No, no.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you maybe just in short explain to me what was MK's
policy regarding the identification of military targets at the time of the incident?
MR KEBOTLHALE: What we are saying is that we are going to attack all enemy
personnel, wherever they are. We have also indicated that we would follow them in
the Bantu (indistinct), in towns, in the cities, in the rural areas and everywhere, and
this is what we actually did at that time.
ADV STEENKAMP: Who decided on the use of this super limpet I think that is
what the applicant, the first applicant said. Who decided on the use of this limpet
mine, the super limpet mine?
MR KEBOTLHALE: We collectively decided on it, all of us.
ADV STEENKAMP: Who planted the bomb?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Alfas.
ADV STEENKAMP: How do you know that, were you present?
MR KEBOTLHALE: He reported back to the Unit that he planted the bomb.
ADV STEENKAMP: Were you during this planning, who was also involved in the
planning, it was you and the first applicant, who else was involved?
MR KEBOTLHALE: It was Alfas, it was Molwedi, it was Simfrey Mkomesi who
is now late.
ADV STEENKAMP: I am sorry, can you give us, it was you, the first ...
MR KEBOTLHALE: It was myself, it was Ernest Sigasa, it was Alfas Mabore
Ndlovu, it was Mokoena Molwedi.
ADV STEENKAMP: You said he is deceased?
MR KEBOTLHALE: No, lastly it was Simfrey Mkomesi who is deceased.
ADV STEENKAMP: Okay, sorry, thank you. Exactly what was the role of your
Commander? How did it work, did he give you instructions and you had to carry
them out or can you just explain to me how did it work? This Unit you had, how
did it work?
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MR KEBOTLHALE: If I may refer you to page 2 of our submission, we are
stating quite clearly there what the role of the Commander was there and Bullet.3,
he gave guidance to military activities.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, maybe I have missed the point here, but I was
under the impression that this statement was the statement made by the first
applicant and that it was not a joint statement. Maybe I am wrong, I don't
understand this.
CHAIRPERSON: I think it was a statement by the first applicant, but this witness
has associated himself in so far as it effects him, with that statement.
MR KOOPEDI: If I may answer, it was decided that because all the applicants are
associating themselves with similar acts, for the sake of brevity, only one statement
would be prepared.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I don't want to be very technical, but I would
ask on behalf of the victims that this statement at least be signed by whoever is
going to be handed in the statement on behalf of the applicants, because the
position as far as the Act goes Mr Chairman, we are dealing with applications are
required by the Act, and I am not quite sure and my difficulty is this, this
information contained in this statement was not catered or not rendered or not
supplied by any of the applicants at all.
As far as the victims go we find it a bit difficult to understand how this information
can just be submitted and numerous acts be added to the application of this
applicant, maybe I must ask the applicant why this is done today.
If I can ask you sir, why are you adding all this new information in this statement,
and why didn't you take the opportunity when you prepared your application, to
submit this to the TRC? Can you give an explanation of that?
MR KOOPEDI: In all fairness to the witness, if you will allow me to come in Mr
Chairman, there are no new incidents that are being mentioned here, because all
these incidents if my learned friend goes through the application forms here, he
will find a corresponding note to that effect.
On the other hand in as far as the request or the instruction that all applicants sign
this statement because the statement cannot be simply handed in, I wish to remind
my learned friend that this statement was meant to be read and not to be handed in
initially and it was handed in because we were asked to hand it in, and remind my
learned friend also that the present applicant has under oath associated himself
with this statement and I do not see the need therefore to sign the statement.
But I wish to stress the fact that there are no new matters that are being brought.
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ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I will not take this point any further, except to
say that there is definitely information that was added, numerous incidents like
page 7, the Honourable Committee Member Khampepe showed, pointed out the
sub-Units, there is no information contained in this application at all.
MR KOOPEDI: Mr Chairman, without creating a dialogue if you will allow me,
my learned friend ...
CHAIRPERSON: You just did.
ADV STEENKAMP: I will just leave it there Mr Chairman, it is up to the
Committee to decide. Maybe it is a question for argument.
ADV MOTATA: No but before you do, we had regard to page 14 of the bundle.
ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, it is the view of the victims that this was an act, a callous
and cowardice act mainly targeting white people who were frequenting this Wimpy
Bar, do you have any comment on this?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I would say that the action on Wimpy was not targeted on
white people. It was targeted at the Security personnel that served on the
Headquarters of the Special Branch, whether black or white and it has never been
the policy or intention of the ANC to hit or to attack ordinary civilians.
ADV STEENKAMP: My last comment, maybe you can comment on this sir, I can
put it as a matter of fact to you that not a single Security Police or political person
was injured at all in this Wimpy attack, it was only civilians.
MR KEBOTLHALE: I would also indicate that this matter has been dealt with by
my Commander.
MS KHAMPEPE: You are being asked notwithstanding the fact that it has been
dealt with by your Commander. You are being asked a question and you must
respond to it Mr Kebotlhale.
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes, I would say that the possibility of concealing blows
suffered by the Special Branch personnel cannot be precluded in that regard, as
part of you know, concealing their defeats.
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Koopedi?
MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination of this witness, thank you Chairperson.
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NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Kebotlhale, I just have one question to pose to you. When
Mr Ndlovu gave you a report after he had conducted some reconnaissance on
Wimpy Bar, did he give you any information with regard to whether there was any
black patronage of this particular Wimpy?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I do not recall that for sure.
MS KHAMPEPE: Did you yourself not know whether that particular Wimpy was
patronaged by blacks?
MR KEBOTLHALE: That I did not know.
MS KHAMPEPE: Were you resident within the Benoni area at that time?
MR KEBOTLHALE: I was staying at Katlehong at that time, not in Benoni.
MS KHAMPEPE: Were you familiar with the mall wherein this Wimpy Bar was
situated?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Personally, not.
MS KHAMPEPE: Had you never gone past the vicinity around the Wimpy
restaurant?
MR KEBOTLHALE: No.
MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.
ADV MOTATA: Just one Chairperson. You said you relied also on information
from former detainees, did I hear you correctly?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes.
ADV MOTATA: And when you say information from former detainees, were they
accompanying the Security Branch to the Wimpy?
MR KEBOTLHALE: That I could not confirm, but that is the information that we
got from former detainees.
ADV MOTATA: That for instance they got food from Wimpy which was bought
by the Police?
MR KEBOTLHALE: Yes.
ADV MOTATA: But never indicated that they actually went with the Police there?
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MR KEBOTLHALE: No.
ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
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AMNESTY HEARING
DATE: 7TH SEPTEMBER 1998
NAME: ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU
MATTER: WIMPY BAR BOMBING AND OTHERS
DAY: 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
MR KOOPEDI: Mr Chairman, I would ask for some direction here. I am not sure
what this Committee proposes to do. When this Committee proposes to close for
the day.
CHAIRPERSON: Certainly not now.
MR KOOPEDI: I would then ask or request to call the third applicant, I wanted to
indicate that I wanted to call him, but was not sure when the Committee intends
breaking up, thank you.
The next applicant is Mr Ndlovu.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, page 28 - 34.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndlovu, which language would you prefer to use?
MR NDLOVU: English.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you comfortable with that?
MR NDLOVU: Yes.
ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: May I have an indulgence for a second
please, there is a document I am trying to find.
ADV MOTATA: Whilst your counsel is finding a document, how do you
pronounce or spell your second name? I am not sure of the spelling on page 28 of
the second name?
MR NDLOVU: Mabore. Actually it was misprinted because during those days, we
had problems. Now my name is being changed to be Mabore, my real name is
Mabope.
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MR KOOPEDI: I have found the document I was looking for, if I may proceed Mr
Chairman. Thank you for the indulgence.
Is it correct that you are one of the applicants in this matter and an applicant in
terms of you being, or having been a member of the Johannes Nkosi Unit?
MR NDLOVU: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Could you speak up to the microphone?
MR NDLOVU: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Now, would you tell the Commissioners, the Honourable
Committee Members before we go into the details of the acts for which you are
applying amnesty, who you are, when were you born, when did you join the ANC?
MR NDLOVU: Okay, actually what I will do is I will read the biography that has
been prepared.
My name is Alfas Mabore Ndlovu. The address is 35 Esangweni Section, Tembisa.
The date of birth, 1964-07-02. I joined the ANC and the People's Revolutionary
Army, MK in September 1985.
I joined the liberation forces during the time when colonialism and perilous forces
were displaying African people in particular, and killing them. The total full,
calculated military aggression against the front line States, suppression of student
bodies, that is COSAS and working class formations (indistinct).
The military skills which I acquired within the ranks of the African National
Congress and Umkonto We Sizwe is as follows: I received the following military
training in Angola in 1985. I have done the following courses, military
engineering, politics, firearms, military tactics, typography, physical training and
artillery.
Further I went to Cuba and I have done the following course, that is suburban
warfare, Commander's course in the year 1986.
And furthermore, I have done military combat work in 1989, that is the former
Soviet Union. That is finished.
MR KOOPEDI: Now, will you tell the Honourable Committee members, the
offences for which you are applying for amnesty.
MR NDLOVU: Actually what I would say is that I am applying for all offences
which my fellow applicants spoke about.
MR KOOPEDI: Will you please enumerate them?
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MR NDLOVU: Number 1, that is the bombing of "Kitskonstabels" in Mnisi
Section, Katlehong.
MR KOOPEDI: ...[inaudible] for which you are applying for amnesty.
MR NDLOVU: Actually what I would say is that I am applying for all offences
which my fellow applicants spoke about.
MR KOOPEDI: Would you please enumerate that?
MR NDLOVU:
1) Number 1: That is the bombing of "Kitskonstabels" in Mnisi
Section, Katlehong.
2) The bombing of sewerage pipes in Sunwatt Park.
3) The bombing of "Kitskonstabels" and SAP.
CHAIRPERSON: Before you carry on, the bombing of the "Kitskonstabels" in
Mnisi Section, what did you so there? What was your role in that?
MR NDLOVU: My role was that physically and practically I went there to execute
the operation and even part of the planning.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR NDLOVU: Okay, the second one is the bombing of the sewerage pipe. In this
one I do agree with my fellow applicants, that together being a unit that was
stationed or to organise activities around East Rand, I also planned and approved
the operations that it must executed. ...[indistinct] the planning.
4) The third one: Ambush of the "Kitskonstabels" and SAP in the
Motsamai Section.
My role, it was that I went there physically and I took part in the execution of the
operation.
MS KHAMPEPE: How?
MR NDLOVU: By carrying an AK rifle and went there to demoralise the enemy
by firing shots.
5) The other one is the bombing of Wimpy Bar.
And this one I went there personally to execute the operation.
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6) The bombing of the rail line and electrical sub-station next to
Katlehong Station.
My role was that I went there physically to execute the operation in benefit of our
people.
7) The last one - not last. The bus terminus in Germiston.
I also took part in planning and giving the approval with other comrades and my
commanders, that the operation should be carried out.
MR KOOPEDI: Is it correct that the incidents that you are referring to are all
enumerated on page 10 of Exhibit A?
MR NDLOVU: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Is it also correct that in all these operations, even though you did
not personally, you may not have personally carried out or executed an act,
however you were involved in the planning thereof?
MR NDLOVU: Yes, I was involved in the planning and the other things, the
operations which were being carried out by our sub-unit. That is the attacks against
councillors.
MS KHAMPEPE: I didn't hear that one.
MR NDLOVU: I'm talking about the attacks against councillors.
MS KHAMPEPE: What about them, did you also take part in their planning?
MR NDLOVU: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the names or identities of these councillors who
were victims or possible victims?
MR NDLOVU: No, I don't know the identities.
CHAIRPERSON: So you don't know if any attack took place?
MR NDLOVU: Actually through media we heard the reports ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: You don't know yourself?
MR NDLOVU: Pardon?
CHAIRPERSON: You don't know yourself?
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MR NDLOVU: Actually I'm trying to indicate that operations were being carried
out, especially by our sub-unit.
MS KHAMPEPE: But didn't your sub-unit come back to report to you as people
who must have been higher than them, about how they had fared with the
operations?
MR NDLOVU: Actually, when it comes to that issue, they do give reports but it
was not possible or easier to locate our comrades, especially in the sub-units, to
give proper reports because we also were operating under difficult conditions
which were by that time, it was not conducive enough for our units to operate. We
operated under difficult conditions.
MS KHAMPEPE: Difficult conditions which made it impossible for your sub-units
to come back and give you reports about operations that you had given them
instruction to execute?
MR NDLOVU: Yes, that's too difficult to locate our units, especially after
operations you find that, let's say a person might be under serious stress or either
fear of being caught, would take retreat position or take underground retreat.
MS KHAMPEPE: How many instructions did you give to these sub-units to carry
out in respect of the councillors?
MR NDLOVU: Actually the instructions which we gave is that they were
collective, not as an individual.
MS KHAMPEPE: Was it at one given time or were you able to meet and give
them further instructions with regard to the conduct of further operations?
MR NDLOVU: Actually what I can say on that issue is that we do, sometimes we
do meet but not meeting - how can I put it, regularly.
MS KHAMPEPE: I'm still a little unclear about it, how these instructions were
given and how reports were actually given to you from your sub-units. You must
have been in some kind of control of your sub-units?
MR NDLOVU: Yes, we do have the control but the other thing is that a unit cannot
give, let's say names, we have to consider the security situation, that we are not
allowed, we are going to guerilla warfare, that we should write reports.
MS KHAMPEPE: The only reason why we are posing these questions is we have
to ascertain whether there was an offence which was committed or not before we
can either consider whether you qualify for amnesty or not.
MR NDLOVU: Yes.
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MS KHAMPEPE: I hope you understand.
MR NDLOVU: I'm saying that to throw a grenade against a councillor, during
those days and even presently, it is an offence according to the law.
MS KHAMPEPE: Yes, but you don't know whether that grenade was thrown to a
councillor or not since no reports were ever given back to you.
MR NDLOVU: What I'm trying to indicate is that new in the newspapers were
being read, that there were attacks, and we knew that our sub-units were carrying
attacks against councillors.
MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.
ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, can you maybe state to us how did you ...[intervention]
MR KOOPEDI: May I just say that there are no further questions from my side at
this stage?
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP: I apologise Mr Chairman, to
my colleague there as well.
Sir, can you state how did you see or how did you understand your political
motive? Can you explain to us your political motive for engaging in these acts for
which you are applying for amnesty?
MR NDLOVU: The political motive, it has been stated by my fellow applicants,
and I don't think that we have to continue with the same question in different
forms, because it has been answered by my fellow applicants and even my
commander as a head of the unit.
ADV MOTATA: But Mr Ndlovu, you are before us as an applicant, and if we had
to look at you and say the others have answered for you, what would ...[indistinct]
be saying what you said before us, which would be considered either to grant or
refuse amnesty, we wouldn't be having that. So it might be a repetition but please
answer the questions as posed to you.
MR NDLOVU: Will you repeat your question?
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you indicate to us what your political motive was, or
how did you understand your political motive at the time, when committing these
acts.
MR NDLOVU: The political motive was that I wanted to liberate our country from
colonial forces and imperialist forces because our people were being under
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constant military attacks, assaults and tortures. And again, to boost the moral of
our people and to secure a clear environment for victory in our liberation struggle.
ADV STEENKAMP: Help me if I'm wrong. I don't know the ANC policies as well
as you do, but was it also the ANC policy to act against colonialism or actions, or
can you explain what the ANC policy was regarding these attacks? How did you
understand the ANC policy regarding the identification of targets. Let's start there.
MR NDLOVU: Actually what I can say is that when it comes to ANC policy, the
policy of the African National Congress there's never mentioned in its political
history that we should attack whites in particular. And again there is no policy in
the ANC that states that we should run amok attacking civilians, either black or
white.
ADV STEENKAMP: Who gave you your instructions Sir?
MR NDLOVU: To do?
ADV STEENKAMP: Sorry. In the Wimpy Bar and the Katlehong incidents, who
gave you your instructions in those incidents?
MR NDLOVU: Actually in that question, the decision was taken after we have met
and we have discussed extensively about the presence of the enemy at Wimpy Bar,
but Wimpy Bar, it was not the actual target, our target was these people who were
murdering our people and sustaining apartheid structures within our country.
ADV STEENKAMP: And who did the reconnaissance in the Wimpy Bar incident?
MR NDLOVU: Actually I was given the mandate to that, to do that
reconnaissance.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you tell us what exactly you reported? What
information did you get that you reported to your commanding officer?
MR NDLOVU: Actually, the reports were as follows: Every Saturday, because the
enemy spent sleepless nights working overtime until Saturdays, Sundays, during
the week. The information was that the security, especially those who are from the
higher ranks, were meeting there inside the Wimpy Bar to debrief their informers,
to extract information from various operatives under their command.
ADV STEENKAMP: Where did this information come from, where did you get
this information from?
MR NDLOVU: Actually the information, it was from the former political
detainees around our country.
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ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, help me if I'm wrong please. On your own you couldn't
verify this, you heard this from other detainees, am I right?
MR NDLOVU: No, you are wrong.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you explain?
MR NDLOVU: Actually we got information from former political detainees, those
who were involved in our revolution, that those policemen were buying food from
Wimpy Bar and they are frequenting the area.
ADV STEENKAMP: But have you seen this yourself, have you seen police
actually buying, Security Branch police visiting and frequently the place, having
meetings with informers, did you see this yourself?
MR NDLOVU: Yes.
ADV STEENKAMP: How did you identify the Security Police, did you know
them, because we all know they were wearing plain clothes? Did you identify them
yourself and the informers?
MR NDLOVU: Actually I've seen them several times doing their job inside
Wimpy Bar and so through continued reconnaissance we have decided, together
with my fellow applicants, that our operation should be carried out.
ADV STEENKAMP: But how did you know they were Security Branch police but
just visiting the Wimpy Bar?
MR NDLOVU: Actually they were using or utilising the cars which belonged to
the state with the registration at the end, B and in the beginning, B. So that is the
identification that this vehicle belonged to the state. Whatever they are wearing
civilian clothing, an enemy is an enemy, it can't change.
ADV STEENKAMP: Did you know there was a police kiosk just opposite the
Wimpy Bar?
MR NDLOVU: Our mandate or our main focus was not ...[intervention]
ADV STEENKAMP: No, no, my question is: "Did you know there was a police
kiosk opposite the Wimpy Bar"?
MR NDLOVU: No, I didn't.
ADV STEENKAMP: Didn't you see it?
MR NDLOVU: No.
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ADV STEENKAMP: If I put it to you that evidence will be led that there was a
kiosk operating, it was an operational kiosk used by the police, or basically a small
police station, you can't say anything about that?
MR NDLOVU: Actually what I can say is these are news and the new information
for me.
ADV STEENKAMP: But Sir, you did the reconnaissance.
MR NDLOVU: Yes, I did.
ADV STEENKAMP: You frequented this area, as I understand from your
commanding officer, not once but a few times.
MR NDLOVU: Yes, but the concentration was not on a kiosk, we wanted to hit the
main target, the main planners. Kiosk it was nothing because let's say we have
attacked their seniors, it will put a direct impact on the psychology of apartheid.
ADV STEENKAMP: My question is this Sir, the Wimpy Bar had a lot of civilians,
we know today that no police were killed. Opposite the Wimpy Bar there are
police, a lot of police, and you're saying now today that you didn't want to attack
the police ...[indistinct] opposite but rather the one or two individuals in the
Wimpy Bar?
MR NDLOVU: I've answered that question, that I couldn't know that there was a
kiosk. If I'd known by that time I think they're also going to be our target because
we wanted to attack the enemy whatever they are.
ADV STEENKAMP: Maybe you can answer this question, who decided to attack
this Wimpy Bar on this specific day and specific time, was it you?
MR NDLOVU: Will you repeat your question?
ADV STEENKAMP: Who decided on this specific day, which was a Saturday at
noon, 12 o'clock, who decided at this specific time this bomb must be planted and
the operation must be executed? Who decided on this?
MR NDLOVU: Actually the whole unit decided on that because we took a
common grounds, especially on planning.
ADV STEENKAMP: So wasn't the reason because it was the anniversary that you
decided on this specific day, not because people were frequenting this place?
MR NDLOVU: No, actually what I'm trying to say is that we took a general
planning and we took a collective mandate or to execute the operation. And the
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other thing is that we were celebrating the anniversary of the South African
Communist Party.
ADV STEENKAMP: So that's the reason why you decided on a week day, or early
morning, or late afternoon?
MR NDLOVU: Will you repeat?
ADV STEENKAMP: Why did you decide on a weekend, or during the week, or
early morning, or late afternoon, why noon on a Saturday?
MR NDLOVU: Yes, we have to decide for Saturday because the enemy was
supposed to be there exactly 12 o'clock or past.
ADV STEENKAMP: You planted the bomb as well, I mean the limpet mine,
yourself?
MR NDLOVU: Yes, I did that.
ADV STEENKAMP: When you planted the limpet mine, did you see any police in
the Wimpy Bar at all?
MR NDLOVU: Actually during the time when I went there to organise the thing
we knew that their are coming.
ADV STEENKAMP: No, no, no, my question is Sir, according to our information
this limpet was planted inside the Wimpy on a leg of a table, am I right? That's
right, that's were the limpet mine was planted, am I right?
MR NDLOVU: Not on the leg.
ADV STEENKAMP: Where was it planted?
MR NDLOVU: Underneath the table.
ADV STEENKAMP: Underneath the table.
MR NDLOVU: Yes.
ADV STEENKAMP: And you did it yourself?
MR NDLOVU: Yes, I did it.
ADV STEENKAMP: When you did this, this is my question, did you see any
police, security, high brass police in the Wimpy Bar when you planted that bomb?
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MR NDLOVU: Actually I've been repeating that the enemy by that time, they were
supposed to be there at twelve.
ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, you said repeatedly you knew these people, you
identified them, you did reconnaissance. My easy question is, I think it's just yes or
no, were there police inside the Wimpy or not?
MR NDLOVU: Actually what I can say is that through my reconnaissance it's been
said that the police personnel and those who belong to the high structures are
visiting or frequenting that Wimpy Bar.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndlovu, when you planted the bomb, were there policemen
that you knew of in the Wimpy Bar?
MR NDLOVU: What I can say is that ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Did you see any policemen there?
MR NDLOVU: Is not(?)
INTERVENTION BY AUDIENCE CLAPPING AND COMMENTING
CHAIRPERSON: I'm not going to tolerate that.
ADV STEENKAMP: I'm sorry Mr Chairman.
Sir, did you check, before you planted this bomb, that there actually were other
people or police close by the Wimpy Bar? Before you did that, did you check
whether or not there were police close or even inside?
MR NDLOVU: I have checked.
ADV STEENKAMP: And what did you see, did you see any police close by?
MR NDLOVU: Actually through my reconnaissance, as I have indicated, at 12
they were supposed to be there and so attacking Wimpy Bar, it was meant for
attacking, it was not meant to attack civilians.
ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, to be frank and honest with you, you knew very well
because you knew the place, there was no police inside or even close to the Wimpy
Bar. Am I right in saying this?
MR NDLOVU: No, you're wrong.
CHAIRPERSON: He just said so.
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
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Did you get paid? How did you sponsor yourself, or this trip, did you get paid, did
you get any amount of money for this work you've done?
MR NDLOVU: Actually we were being assisted from our frontal commands, to be
sustained, especially financially.
CHAIRPERSON: No, the question is: "Did you get paid for doing this job"?
MR NDLOVU: No.
CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] question was.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you answer the question? Did he answer, I didn't hear.
Thank you Mr Chairman, sorry.
Sir, who was your commanding officer and who gave you your instructions?
MR NDLOVU: Where?
ADV STEENKAMP: For attacking the Wimpy Bar and the attack on the police in
Katlehong.
MR NDLOVU: Actually what I said previously is that we took a decision together.
ADV STEENKAMP: Because I don't see that anywhere in your application which
was submitted to the TRC, can you give an explanation for that?
MR NDLOVU: Can you repeat your question?
ADV STEENKAMP: I don't see this information anywhere in your amnesty
application which was submitted to the TRC, that you took a decision collectively,
and you don't mention anybody. Is there a reason for that?
MR NDLOVU: Actually through our organigramme it has been stated that our
structure, it was structured the way it exists on the bundle of papers.
ADV STEENKAMP: No, I'm talking about your own application. I can refer you
to your application ...[intervention]
MR KOOPEDI: With respect to my learned friend, the organigramme was
supplied as part and parcel of the further particulars requested by the TRC from all
the applicants. It may well have been supplied by one of them but this refers to all
of them and it would improper and unfair to say that this organigramme is not part
of his application.
CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] Mr Steenkamp, look at page 32.
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ADV STEENKAMP: I've seen it Mr Chairman.
My last question to you Sir, I see here in your application you refer to page 32,
paragraph 11(b):
"The order by Chris Hani at Zimbabwe"
What is the relevance of this information?
MR NDLOVU: Actually what I can say ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: What's the question?
ADV STEENKAMP: Sorry Mr Chairman.
I see you are stating there, on the question: "Who gave such an order". You said:
"It was in line by ANC police to conduct such an act.
The order by Chris Hani at Zimbabwe"
MR NDLOVU: Actually we never instructed by Chris Hani to attack a Wimpy Bar
because Hani belonged to the MHQ, he never issued out such an instruction.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you explain to me what your role was in the Katlehong
attack?
MR NDLOVU: Which one?
ADV STEENKAMP: The one where the police were injured.
MR NDLOVU: What was my role?
ADV STEENKAMP: Yes. The Lindela Hostel, can you remember that?
MR NDLOVU: Yes, I remember that.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you tell me what your role was exactly and your part
there in that action?
MR NDLOVU: My role in that action, we went there to execute the operation by
shooting at the enemy personnel.
ADV STEENKAMP: Why did you decide on this specific place, Katlehong, was
there a specific reason or not?
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MR NDLOVU: Actually we decided to attack the enemy at that point because we
knew and we were reconnoitring that area, that the enemy they are exchanging
their shifts using that barrack within the hostel vicinity.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you just indicate to me, as far as your knowledge serves
you, as far as I know there are two incidents where people were injured or killed,
this is the Wimpy incident and the Katlehong incident. Are you aware of any other
incidents where you were involved in where people were either injured or killed?
MR NDLOVU: Actually what I can say is that we have been reading newspapers.
We couldn't go back and verify because the only thing we knew was that was an
enemy, enemy territory. In order to verify we are supposed to be taking other
initiatives.
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination Mr Koopedi?
MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Ndlovu, my questions are going to be in respect of your
reconnaissance with regard to the Wimpy bombing.
I want to know how long it took you to do your reconnaissance in terms of days, in
terms of weeks, in terms of months?
MR NDLOVU: Actually we took several months monitoring that area.
MS KHAMPEPE: How several, two, three months?
MR NDLOVU: I cannot remember because it's an old incident, but what I'm
saying is that several months.
MS KHAMPEPE: With whom were you when you were doing your
reconnaissance?
MR NDLOVU: I was on my own.
MS KHAMPEPE: And the information that you had received from the ex-
detainees, what exactly did it contain?
MR NDLOVU: Actually the information contained that when people were being
captured for being involved in the liberation struggle, they could be taken to
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Benoni Police Station and then during the process of undergoing severe
interrogation, they could be taken to the Wimpy and those security guys would buy
food and eat there, went back to the police station.
MS KHAMPEPE: So the information was that the people who were detained were
taken to Wimpy by the security members, given food and then taken back to the
police station for further interrogation?
MR NDLOVU: What I'm saying is that they could be taken there - let's say they
are inside this security cars and so the security personnel, they will went inside buy
food and then they will come back and take them to the prison. The other thing,
they could go there on a daily basis for consultations or to plan other operations
which we couldn't know.
MS KHAMPEPE: So the information was that the security members were
frequenting that particular Wimpy Bar on a daily basis?
MR NDLOVU: Yes.
MS KHAMPEPE: And it wasn't that they went there on Saturdays?
MR NDLOVU: Actually what they were doing is that they could frequent the area
every day because enemy we knew that it was operating seven days in a week,
because they couldn't rest.
MS KHAMPEPE: What kind of information did you elicit from your
reconnaissance?
MR NDLOVU: Actually the information that I've got is that the enemy forces were
frequenting the Wimpy Bar and on Saturday, specifically Saturday, they could
organise a meeting there or take their lunch after their ...[indistinct] or extracting
information from their ...[indistinct].
MS KHAMPEPE: And how was this information obtained, how were you able to
obtain this particular information with regard to the meeting on Saturdays?
MR NDLOVU: Actually I've managed to extract the information because I was
also using a Wimpy Bar to get food and to listen and to see the environment inside,
what they are doing.
MS KHAMPEPE: And in your frequenting the Wimpy Bar for purposes of
collecting this kind of information, were you able to see whether there were any
black patronage of that particular Wimpy Bar?
MR NDLOVU: Actually in my position what I've noticed is that if the enemy is
within the given territory with the support groups, meaning people who are
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supplying the enemy with information, they could be there always, especially on
Saturday.
MS KHAMPEPE: So in brief what you are saying is that you were able to observe
black patronage in that particular Wimpy?
MR NDLOVU: Yes.
MS KHAMPEPE: How big was that compared to the overall number of people that
you were able to observe, for the past three months that you did your
reconnaissance?
MR NDLOVU: Will you repeat?
MS KHAMPEPE: How big was the black presence of people who were
patronising Wimpy? You were able to do this reconnaissance for the past two to
three months.
MR NDLOVU: What I can say is that our people couldn't have a chance to enjoy
themselves, especially in Wimpy Bars ...[intervention]
MS KHAMPEPE: How big? I'm talking of numbers.
MR NDLOVU: Oh, the number?
MS KHAMPEPE: Yes.
MR NDLOVU: I cannot remember but they were very, there were a few but what I
can say, I'm not so sure if I can say there were a few.
MS KHAMPEPE: Were you able to also observe the number of workers who were
at Wimpy?
MR NDLOVU: Generally I could say they were plus minus 6 or 7, not so sure.
MS KHAMPEPE: And did you give this information to your command structure?
MR NDLOVU: Yes.
MS KHAMPEPE: And was there any attitude adopted with regard to the presence
of black people?
MR NDLOVU: Actually what I can say is that when we planned to execute that
operation, our main objective was to attack the enemy forces, not civilians as it has
been stated.
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MS KHAMPEPE: Yes. And how did you hope to achieve that, after you had seen
that there was a small presence of black people frequenting that particular Wimpy?
How would you then have averted a civilian attack?
MR NDLOVU: Actually I'm having a problem concerning the concept, civilian.
During the year 1985, our comrade President, Oliver Tambo, once spoke about a
civilian and a policeman. Now my problem is, how do you differentiate between a
person in uniform and a person in civilian clothing but serving the same principle,
being a policeman in disguise?
MS KHAMPEPE: Did you take any precautions at all Mr Ndlovu, to avert any
civilian casualty? Can you honestly say that you did?
MR NDLOVU: Can you repeat yourself?
MS KHAMPEPE: Did you take any precautions to avert any civilian casualties, in
carrying out your operation in that particular Wimpy?
MR NDLOVU: Yes, we did take precaution.
MS KHAMPEPE: Can you explain what precautions you took?
MR NDLOVU: The precaution is that during our operation we knew that that
Wimpy Bar, especially 12 o'clock, the enemy forces will be there in large numbers
and even their recruits in our townships, to supply them with information and to
debrief their agents. According to the area - according to the building itself, the
Wimpy, it could not accommodate a large number of people and we know that by
that time the enemy forces will be inside.
MS KHAMPEPE: What time did you go into this particular Wimpy to plant the
bomb?
MR NDLOVU: If I could remember, if my memory serves me well, I was there
plus minus ten, half past ten, I'm not sure.
MS KHAMPEPE: Half past ten.
MR NDLOVU: I'm not saying half past, I'm saying from ten onwards until half
past, I'm not so sure.
MS KHAMPEPE: And the people who were there, were you able to observe any
security members, of the people who were already there at 10 o'clock or past 10
o'clock? Were you able to recognise any members of the Security Police?
MR NDLOVU: Will you repeat?
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MS KHAMPEPE: Of the people who were there when you went in at past ten,
were you able to recognise any members of the Security Police?
MR NDLOVU: As I'm saying that you could recognise the enemy presence.
MS KHAMPEPE: You could?
MR NDLOVU: I'm saying that you could recognise the enemy presence by the
virtue of, they are utilising their state vehicles, meaning that they could be around
there or waiting outside.
MS KHAMPEPE: Were you able to identify any vehicles belonging to the state at
that time?
MR NDLOVU: Yes, because I have been carrying reconnaissance against the
enemy forces.
MS KHAMPEPE: So from your prognosis, you then concluded that there should
be the presence of the enemy inside Wimpy?
MR NDLOVU: If they were not inside, it simply means that they were on stand-by
to attend a meeting, Outside, they may be outside or whatever, corner.
MS KHAMPEPE: They would be outside until about 12 o'clock, because your
reconnaissance had actually elicited information that the meeting at about 12
o'clock, that's your evidence?
MR NDLOVU: Yes.
MS KHAMPEPE: And they would be standing outside from about 10 o'clock until
12 o'clock? Could that have been probable?
MR NDLOVU: I'm not so sure about that because when I'm saying that - let's say
somebody is attending a meeting, he can decide to stand outside. Let's say like he
will be taking a cigarette and smoke for a while ...[indistinct] to a meeting or he is
still busy with somebody.
MS KHAMPEPE: With regard to the Lindela Hostel attack, how many people did
you actually shoot?
MR NDLOVU: Actually you couldn't went back to the enemy forces and ask them
that: "How many people have been attacked"?, but what has been happening is that
you have been reading reports from media, especially from Citizen or whatever
newspaper, if I remember very well.
MS KHAMPEPE: From which position did you shoot at these people?
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MR NDLOVU: Actually would you clarify your question?
MS KHAMPEPE: If you are unable to know how many people you shot at - did
you shoot at a police vehicle with the "Kitskonstabels" inside the car or what
happened? How did the ambush take place?
MR NDLOVU: We shot them while they were inside the thing, inside the truck.
MS KHAMPEPE: Inside the truck?
MR NDLOVU: Mm.
MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you, no further questions.
ADV MOTATA: Just two Chairperson.
Just returning to the Wimpy Bar incident. Other than the state vehicles, did you
know any Security Branch policemen? Other than the vehicles you saw parked
there and the assumption that it belonged to them, they might be in Wimpy Bar,
did you know any?
MR NDLOVU: Actually their appearance you could see that this guy he belongs to
the state.
ADV MOTATA: Wimpy Bar had the hall, restaurant itself for eating inside and
there were people who could also dine outside, would I be right?
MR NDLOVU: If I could remember well, I'm not so sure about dining outside.
ADV MOTATA: In fairness to you, we have several statements that say some
would dine outside.
MR NDLOVU: I can't remember that because it is an old incident, I cannot
remember everything.
ADV MOTATA: Now let's return to your bundle, your application itself, page 32,
paginated. In response to a question asked there you said:
"It was in line with the ANC policy to conduct such an
act"
And if we look at your application you are talking about the "Kitskonstabels", you
are talking about Wimpy Bar, why now singular it?
MR NDLOVU: Will you repeat?
ADV MOTATA: If you say:
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"in line with the ANC policy"
then you say:
"policy to conduct such an act",
you are not speaking of acts and you are making application for several acts.
MR NDLOVU: What I can say, especially when it comes to the position of ANC
policy, yes, it's being a policy to attack an enemy forces but not to attack civilians.
ADV MOTATA: No, no, I think we are at cross-purposes here. I say my reading,
correct me if I'm wrong, I say reading this submission you are making, you say:
"such an act"
and when we listen to your evidence, you are applying for several acts or attack
acts, if I may put it that way.
MR NDLOVU: I think it was a mistake and you have to understand that English is
not my mother tongue.
ADV MOTATA: And you say:
"The order by Chris Hani at Zimbabwe"
Did Hani give you any orders whilst he was at the HMQ?
MR NDLOVU: Actually the orders that we have been given, we've been given the
order during the time when we were stationed at Zimbabwe. And now it is being
ordered that we should escalate assaults and intensify attacks against enemy forces
and we have to take the struggle into the white areas.
ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: You're excused.
MR NLDOVU: Okay, thanks.
WITNESS EXCUSED
TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
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AMNESTY HEARING
DATE: 7TH SEPTEMBER 1998
NAME: MOLWEDI MOKOENA
MATTER: WIMPY BAR BOMBING AND OTHERS
DAY : 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, I will ask the question I asked before this witness
...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]
MR KOOPEDI: There is one last witness.
CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]
MR KOOPEDI: The idea is not to call any other witness.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, how many witnesses do you propose to call?
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, it depends on the situation. At this stage I
have two witnesses Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: What does it depend on?
ADV STEENKAMP: Well it doesn't depend on anything Mr Chairman, we'll
definitely call them. The problem is, we didn't prepare any sworn statements but
we can call them. There's a possibility of a third witness tomorrow morning.
CHAIRPERSON: A third witness?
ADV STEENKAMP: Yes, Sir, but the definitely the two witnesses are available,
they can testify immediately.
CHAIRPERSON: The evidence that your witnesses are intending to give, is
...[intervention]
ADV STEENKAMP: Well the first two witnesses, yes, Mr Chairman. The third
witness will probably deal with the facts of the incident itself, at the day of the
incident. The Security Branch police officer will probably come before. The
...[indistinct] will make a sworn statement if necessary. We're waiting for him but
there is a request from the victims to testify, two victims.
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CHAIRPERSON: So what we're talking about is actually a maximum of three
witnesses and one applicant tomorrow?
Perhaps we can dispose of your last applicant now.
MR KOOPEDI: As it pleases the Committee. Chairperson, the next and last
applicant is Mr Molwedi Mokoena. He is before you now.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mokoena, what language would you prefer to use?
MR KOOPEDI: I will answer for him whilst he is still ...[indistinct]. He also, like
we indicated earlier, will use English.
MOLWEDI MOKOENA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, where is Mr Mokoena's ...[intervention]
ADV STEENKAMP: Page 8 until 20, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: I see his personal particulars are already set out in his
application so you can skip those and get to the nitty gritty.
EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: As it pleases the Committee.
Is it true that you are one of the applicants in this matter and further that you are a
member of the Johannes Nkosi Unit which was based in the East Rand?
MR MOKOENA: Yes, I was.
MR KOOPEDI: Now would you, very briefly so, inform the members of this
Committee when you joined the ANC and in particular what training you had?
MR MOKOENA:
"I joined the African National Congress and its armed wing
Umkhonto weSizwe in 1986 internally(?). I became a member of the
regional command, Johannes Nkosi Unit, between 1987 and 1990. I
received military and combat training in the former Soviet Union,
Botswana, Zambia and Zimbabwe"
MR KOOPEDI: Now the offences for which you are here before this Committee,
would you, for the sake of the record, state the offences for which you are applying
for amnesty?
MR MOKOENA: I firstly say I engaged in the following in my personal capacity:
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1) The bombing and electrical sub-station near Katlehong Station
with fellow applicant, Alfas Ndlovu.
2) Bombing of the sewerage tanks in the Sunwatt Park with fellow
applicant, Ernest Sigasa.
And as part of the overall command, the Johannes Nkosi, I'm applying for the
following:
1) Bombing of the "Kitskonstabels" Barracks in Mnisi Section.
2) The bombing of - the ambush of the "Kitskonstabels" and SAP in
Motsamai Section next to Lindela Hostel.
3) The bombing of Wimpy Bar.
4) And the bombing of the bus terminus in Germiston.
MR KOOPEDI: Now when all these offences were committed, or in fact prior to
that, were you involved in any way in the planning thereof?
MR MOKOENA: Yes, I was.
MR KOOPEDI: Now you have explained or mentioned the offences for which you
are applying for amnesty, would you briefly tell the Members of this Honourable
Committee what you did on that day, how you went about executing those acts?
MR MOKOENA: ...[inaudible] and on the electrical sub-section, and we placed the
mini limpet mine on the railway line, the intersection of the railway lines. And the
next thing we only got reports from the newspaper.
MR KOOPEDI: With regards to the main sewerage tank in Sunwatt Park?
MR MOKOENA: With regard to the main sewerage tank in Sunwatt Park, we
moved from our base again together with fellow applicant, Mr Ernest Sigasa. We
used one of our vehicles, which is somewhere identified as part of our support
service to the place in Sunwatt Park. It was in the evening between 8 and 9. We
went for those sewerage tanks which were a bit further away from the residential
place and we placed our mines, and it happened like in the very first case, that we
had to get the report from the newspapers of the explosion.
MR KOOPEDI: That is all for now Mr Chairperson, from me.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Can you just run by the incidents that you apply for?
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MR MOKOENA: I think are two-phased, the specific ones that I applied, wherein I
was physically involved and which is the bombing of the railway line and electrical
sub-station near Katlehong, and the bombing of the sewerage tanks in Sunwatt
Park. And the rest are as my part as component member of the Johannes Nkosi
Unit.
CHAIRPERSON: Which events are you talking about in respect of that now?
MR MOKOENA: It's - say for instance, the bombing of the "Kitskonstabels",
which my fellow applicants ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: What did you do in respect of that?
MR MOKOENA: The planning. Being part of the command unit, I was part of the
planning.
CHAIRPERSON: Which are those now where you were part of the planning?
MR MOKOENA: The bombing of the "Kitskonstabels" in Mnisi, the ambush of
the "Kitskonstabels" and SAP in Motsamai Section.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR MOKOENA: The bombing of Benoni Wimpy Bar and the bombing of the bus
terminus in Germiston.
CHAIRPERSON: Your only involvement was the planning? Yes, is that all Mr
Koopedi?
MR KOOPEDI: Yes, that is all for now.
ADV STEENKAMP: I've got no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
MS KHAMPEPE: I have no questions Mr Chairman.
ADV MOTATA: I've got no questions Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Mr Chairman, that concludes the evidence from and for all four
applicants.
CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn then till tomorrow morning at 09H30.
MR KOOPEDI: As it pleases.
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ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, may I just take the
opportunity to apologise on behalf of the victims for the incident which happened.
I'm sure we'll take care of it in the future, I do apologise.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
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ON RESUMPTION: 8TH SEPTEMBER 1998 - DAY 2
ADV STEENKAMP: Honourable Members, Mr Chairman, first of all, from my
side I do apologise for starting late, there were certain logistical problems. Mr
Chairman the first witness I'll be calling is Mr Scheepers. Mr Scheepers will be
testifying in Afrikaans Mr Chairman, if there is no objection.
JOHANNES ABRAHAM SCHEEPERS: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr
Scheepers is it correct if I say that you are a retired police officer and that you
retired to the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel?
MR SCHEEPERS: Johannes Abraham Scheepers.
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman. Can you just quickly sketch the
background of where you worked up until the time you retired?
MR SCHEEPERS: Chairperson I was involved with the Security Branch of the
South African Police since 1976, and the branch in Benoni that is, where I had
several positions until the end of March 1988 when I was
appointed as the Commander of that branch, end of March 1988. I was
Commander in Benoni since 1988 until December 1993 when I was transferred to
the Regional Office in Braamfontein, Johannesburg.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Scheepers can you tell us, do you know anything
concerning the Wimpy attacks which happened on the 30th of July 1988, do you
know of this incident?
MR SCHEEPERS: Yes I do.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you just quickly tell us how did you learn about this
incident?
MR SCHEEPERS: I was at the scene of the crime. I was the Commander of the
branch, and my personnel investigated the whole situation.
CHAIRPERSON: Was this after the incident?
MR SCHEEPERS: After the incident I arrived at the scene several minutes after it
actually took place, as soon as I learned about it.
ADV STEENKAMP: Colonel the allegation which the applicants make is that the
Wimpy was attacked or was identified as a target because high superior officers of
the Security Branch often visited this Wimpy, and on Saturdays they'll have
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meetings there and they'd also meet with informants. Can you give any comment
on that?
MR SCHEEPERS: Chairperson our personnel meeting were held in our offices on
Fridays, and that was at the current police station at Harper Lane which is about
1½km away from the scene of the crime. We never gathered in the Wimpy, or we
never went to eat there as a group of personnel and I do not know of any one of my
personnel who would have met informants there.
ADV STEENKAMP: During this incident 1988, where were was the security
offices and where was the police station with regards to the Wimpy?
MR SCHEEPERS: The police station in Benoni since April 1980 is in Antholl
Lane in Benoni, and the Security Branch since December 1979 it was situated at
the same place in Harper Lane before it was actually opened officially, so the
Security Branch was since '79, December in Harper Lane.
ADV STEENKAMP: How far is that from the Wimpy, the police station, how far
is from the Wimpy?
MR SCHEEPERS: About a kilometre and a half.
ADV STEENKAMP: Do you know of a police kiosk which was situated close to
the Wimpy?
MR SCHEEPERS: Chairperson in the centre of town and this area, there was a
kiosk which was manned by reservists, about 50 metres from the Wimpy. The
reservists, especially on Saturday, they'd man this kiosk on a Saturday to serve the
public there in the centre of town.
ADV STEENKAMP: Do you know of any occasion where food would have been
ordered from the Wimpy by the policemen from the station, maybe to get food for
the detainees or the people who were interrogated, do you know anything about
that?
MR SCHEEPERS: No not at all, I know nothing of that.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you just tell us what was the practice when you dealt
with informants? What was the practice, what did you used to do?
MR SCHEEPERS: Chairperson the informants were met at places where they were
safe themselves, and also to make sure their identity was protected and we also had
to make sure that it was safe for the member who was involved, places where the
public did not have access to easily, or if it was in public, it would be in a very
busy place where they would not be noticed. It was not the practice to meet them in
a Wimpy Bar.
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ADV STEENKAMP: And finally I'd just like to know your comment on this, you
see that one of the applicants said that he recognised this place and that he gained
information, and his information told him that on Saturdays around lunch, superior
officers of the Security Branch would gather there.
MR SCHEEPERS: I was the Commander of the branch in Benoni and I never met
my people there.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't think he meant to say that you were part of it, but can you
dispute the fact that some of your men did meet there on a Saturday afternoon, or
had lunch there?
MR SCHEEPERS: I cannot dispute the fact that a man went there, but this
allegation considering that it's superior officers, definitely not. It might be that one
guy with his family might have gone there, but not as a group, that was not out
practice.
ADV STEENKAMP: And the question I'd also like to ask you, is that allegation
was made that police vehicles with "P" or "B" registration plates which was
according to allegations used by the Security Branch, it was noticed outside of this
building. Do you know anything of that? Would the security personnel drive of
these vehicles?
MR SCHEEPERS: No, we used vehicles that could not be distinguished from
others, they had normal plates so they were not identifiable. A person who wanted
to identify one of our vehicles had to go through a long period of observation to
determine whether it's used by security personnel or not.
ADV STEENKAMP: And can you also tell the Committee what happened to the
docket? What was the end result of this docket? Were the investigations stopped,
what happened?
MR SCHEEPERS: The docket was investigated, and all of these dockets were at
one point sent to Pretoria Head Office and they were busy with the political
negotiations, and prosecutions were stopped. We no longer have the dockets
available to us.
ADV STEENKAMP: Now your information as Security Chief, would you ever
think that these Wimpies could have been a military target? What was your
experience afterwards, what was considered to be targets that might be attacked,
military targets?
MR SCHEEPERS: Usually it was installations, power lines, water-pipes, etc. The
Wimpy was a civilian target, that was something else.
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman I've got no further questions.
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NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi have you got any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Just a few, if I may proceed. And
may I put the questions in English rather instead of Afrikaans.
CHAIRPERSON: As you please, yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Mr Scheepers you have testified that there was a kiosk about 50
metres from the Wimpy Bar. Now my question is, who manned this kiosk, was it
manned by ordinary police, or was it manned by security personnel like Special
Branch people?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi he has already said it was manned by reservists. Do
you dispute the fact that there may have been a kiosk?
MR KOOPEDI: As it pleases. Now I've also heard you say that you could not
dispute the fact that any of your members could have gone to this Wimpy on one
occasion or another. But now my question is, if people from time to time bought
food at Wimpy, would this be a matter that is known to you or reported to you that
they buy food at this place?
MR SCHEEPERS: No I would not know if someone in his personal capacity
would go and buy food at the Wimpy, or even frequented the place.
CHAIRPERSON: I think we can take it further, if some of your men decided on a
day, let's some of us go and eat at the Wimpy, is that something that they would
tell you or convey to you, or report back to you about this, a social thing?
MR SCHEEPERS: If it would have been a social event I would have carried
knowledge of it. If it was a single occurrence, for example if they wanted to go and
buy cooldrink I wouldn't know about that, but if it was a function or at a regular
period would go there I would have known about that.
CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it this way Mr Scheepers, we've held a few of these
hearings, and many of them had to do with the applications of members of the
Security Branch throughout the country, and some of the evidence that we heard
was that some of the men that was involved had regular braais, at least once a
week. For what reason it doesn't matter. Is that something that was written in a
book or that was mentioned to the Station Commander, or is something that just
happened?
MR SCHEEPERS: Mr Chairperson, in my office we had the arrangement with the
personnel if they wanted to have a braai they must inform me because then I would
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know. I had no objection if it happened, but then I had to know about it, and I had
good control over my personnel.
CHAIRPERSON: You said the same would have happened if they as a group
would have decided to go to the Wimpy?
MR SCHEEPERS: Yes, that would have happened.
MR KOOPEDI: Now as you headed the investigation on this matter, is it correct
that the result of your investigations were that a coloured man or an Indian man
was responsible for planting this bomb?
CHAIRPERSON: Does that - is that relevant Mr Koopedi, your applicants have
said they planted the bomb, and I can't see them having been classified by the
previous regime as Indian or coloured.
MR KOOPEDI: That is precisely my point Chairperson, and the idea was to show
that much as the investigation is proved to be floored now by the nature of the
applicants we had then, and I thought that for the sake of record purposes we have
to show that perhaps the witness before us here cannot be said to have known all.
And like he said there are things that he would not be sure of.
CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it this way, I think I speak for my two colleagues too,
we'd rather prefer a small record than a larger one.
MR KOOPEDI: There are no further questions to this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?
ADV STEENKAMP: No thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Scheepers on the issue that has already been addressed by
the Chairperson concerning your possible knowledge of the activities of your
underlings with regard to places that they could have visited with their informers,
is it possible that they could have visited Wimpy with their informers because it
was patronised by people of all races, and in those circumstances they wouldn't be
easily noticeable? Is it possible then they could have done that without your
knowledge?
MR SCHEEPERS: Mr Chairperson I was for a long time in control of the
information collection, in other words the, I dealt with the reports from my
personnel, even before I came Commander, and it was not practice to use the same
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place over and over again. If one of the members visited this Wimpy in order to
meet up with an informant, they would not easily repeat this because that would
become a risk.
MS KHAMPEPE: But if he had met with an informer at a Wimpy, would that be
something that would be reported back to you?
MR SCHEEPERS: I would have known if he visited the informant or met up with
him because he has to take notes, but I would not always know where this took
place. But it was not practice to go to the same place over again.
MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you very much.
MR MOTATA: Just one Mr Chairman following up on my colleague there. I
understand you when you say probably it was not the practice, but could it happen
without your knowledge that for instance for convenience that your underling
would go to the same place more than twice with the same informer because it's a
public place, it's not easily noticeable?
MR SCHEEPERS: Mr Chairperson I doubt that because it would be a risk for
himself as well. In their training they were not allowed to do this. And if he does
do it he would run the risk of being exposed or his informant can be exposed, and
the personnel would not do this.
MR MOTATA: Thank you Mr Chairman I've got no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: In other words you say that it is not likely to happen in this way,
but you cannot dispute it?
MR SCHEEPERS: It is not impossible, but it is very unlikely.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV STEENKAMP: May the witness be excused Mr Chairman.
WITNESS IS EXCUSED
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman the next witness I'm
then calling is Mrs Beatie Malope.
Mr Chairman just before Mrs Malope will start testifying if I can just indicate that
Mrs Malope is also a victim in this incident and she used to work at the Wimpy
Bar where this incident happened. She will be testifying in Xhosa Mr Chairman,
sorry Sotho Mr Chairman.
MRS BEATIE MALOPE: (duly sworn in, states)
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EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mrs
Malope am I right in saying that you are also a victim in this incident and that you
are also opposing the application of all 4 applicants, am I right in saying that?
MS MALOPE: That is correct.
ADV STEENKAMP: Before we start the question can you maybe just indicate to
the panel exactly what was your extent of your injuries?
MS MALOPE: My ears were affected, one of my ears is -when you talk with me
you must speak a little bit louder.
ADV STEENKAMP: At the time of this incident, am I right in saying that you
worked at the Wimpy Bar?
MS MALOPE: That is correct.
ADV STEENKAMP: During 1988 for how many years have you been working at
the Wimpy Bar at that stage?
MS MALOPE: Three years Sir.
ADV STEENKAMP: And what was your function in the Wimpy Bar?
MS MALOPE: I was receptionist receiving calls.
ADV STEENKAMP: Am I right in saying that you were the person receiving calls
for people who was ordering food from the Wimpy Bar?
MS MALOPE: That is correct.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you remember, have you ever ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp before she carries on, I missed the injuries that
she described on this ...
ADV STEENKAMP: I'm sorry Mr Chairman I'll just ask her to repeat it.
Can you just repeat your injuries to the Chairperson please, exactly what was the
extent of your injuries.
MS MALOPE: The other problem is that my - I'm not able to see from a distance,
my eyes are affected, I have a ...(indistinct) problem.
ADV STEENKAMP: Am I right in saying that you've got limited hearing ability
and also limited vision, is that what the extent of your injuries were?
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MS MALOPE: That is correct.
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman. Just to repeat that last question,
have you ever received any orders during the time that you worked in the Wimpy
Bar from the police ordering food for people that was in custody, or even people
that were in custody who was ordering food from - via telephone, or by the
telephone?
MS MALOPE: When we receive orders through the phone you ask the person the
name and you ask him where is the place where he is staying. We were not
delivering food on Saturdays.
ADV STEENKAMP: Have you ever received any orders from police or from the
police station via the telephone?
MS MALOPE: No Sir.
ADV STEENKAMP: During the time that you've worked there - or let's go to the
day of the incident, am I right in saying that on that day you had a special for
children and you were organising this special. Can you maybe describe or
elaborate on that please?
MS MALOPE: Yes we had specials for children. Parents were bringing children on
that day so that they would have the food with the children. We had balloons so
that we should give to all these children that when they punched those balloons one
of them would win a prize.
ADV STEENKAMP: Why did you choose this specific day, was there any reason,
or did you do it on a regular basis?
MS MALOPE: Every month in Wimpy we have a special for children.
ADV STEENKAMP: And this was the specific day in the month?
MS MALOPE: Specials were issued by the company, they would not even tell us
the date. Even on Saturdays we would have specials, but those specials were
usually held on month-end.
CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Malope tell me, you say you were injured and you were
affected by what occurred that day. How do you feel about it?
MS MALOPE: I'm not happy because I did not know what happened or what was
happening on that day.
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CHAIRPERSON: Well you've heard the evidence of the applicants, they now say a
bomb was planted there which obviously resulted in your defects now. What do
you feel about that?
MS MALOPE: It is difficult.
CHAIRPERSON: Is it difficult to accept it?
MS MALOPE: It is difficult yes Sir - yes it's difficult.
CHAIRPERSON: Aside from not being happy about having defective hearing and
eyesight, apart from that lot, why is it so difficult?
MS MALOPE: I'm not able to forgive a person. If it was possible for him to make
me recover from my problems with my eyesight and my hearing, that will be
possible for me to forgive.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the reason you oppose the applications?
MS MALOPE: That is correct Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Has any one of them come to speak to you previously after this?
MS MALOPE: No Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: What would be your attitude if they did, any one of them did - to
come make his peace with you?
MS MALOPE: I would not able to answer that. If he will make me recover from
my eyesight and my hearing, I would be able to forgive.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
ADV STEENKAMP: Just the one question. Maam you've heard the testimony
yesterday of the applicants, do you think what they have said yesterday is the full
version, or do you accept the evidence as the truth - what is your feeling about
that?
MS MALOPE: I don't believe.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you maybe just elaborate why you think you don't
believe them?
MS MALOPE: Why did they plant the bomb there if they were looking for people
they were looking for, their targets.
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
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NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi have you got any questions.
MR KOOPEDI: No questions for this witness thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, you're excused.
WITNESS IS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Before you go Mrs Molope, what is your address?
MS MALOPE: 1761 Moutlatsi Street.
CHAIRPERSON: 1761?
MS MALOPE: Moutlatsi Street - M-O-U-T-L-A-T-S-I, Moutlatsi.
CHAIRPERSON: Where is that?
MS MALOPE: It's in Benoni Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Is there any particular name for a suburb?
MS MALOPE: It's next to Attenville.
CHAIRPERSON: So your address would be 1761 Moutlatsi Street Benoni.
MS MALOPE: 1761.
CHAIRPERSON: Moutlatsi Street, Benoni.
MS MALOPE: Wadeville.
CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me?
MS MALOPE: Wattville. W-A-T-T-V-I-L-L-E.
CHAIRPERSON: W-A-T-T-V-I-L-L-E.
MS MALOPE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Benoni. Yes, thank you.
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ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman the following witness will be Ms Amanda Jane
Elizabeth Clemenson - Clemenson with a "C" Mr Chairman. Ms Clemenson?
CHAIRPERSON: Amanda?
ADV STEENKAMP: Amanda Jane Elizabeth Clemenson. She is currently residing
in London Mr Chairman, and her full address - she will state her full address just
now. Thank you Mr Chairman. She will be testifying in English Mr Chairman.
AMANDA JANE ELIZABETH CLEMENSON: (duly sworn in, states)
EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman. Ms
Clemenson can you indicate before we start your physical address, where do you
stay now currently and what do you do for a living?
MS CLEMENSON: I stay in Newcastle ...(indistinct) in England and I'm currently
unable to work because of my disabilities.
CHAIRPERSON: If I had to write a letter to you how would I address it?
MS CLEMENSON: My address?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS CLEMENSON: 9 Shearwater Close ...
CHAIRPERSON: S-H ...
MS CLEMENSON: E-A-R-W-A-T-E-R Close, Etal Park Estate - E-T-A-L Park
Estate, Newcastle Upon Time (?).
CHAIRPERSON: Newcastle Upon Time.
MS CLEMENSON: ME54NH, England.
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman. Ms Clemenson - Mr Chairman I
could just indicate that Ms Clemenson did make available certain photos indicating
her injuries. Can you just state for the record exactly what the extent of your
injuries were as a result of this bomb blast?
MS CLEMENSON: I have 70 percent deafness, I must wear a hearing-aid. I've had
two ear operations, both have failed; I have got burns on my face which only
become visible when I am upset; I have about 90 percent body burns all over. My
whole torso is completely scarred due to the fact that I had a silk shirt on which
caught fire; I have electrical cable scarring on my upper body where the cables fell
down on top of me and I was electrocuted. My abdomen was blown apart from just
under where you bra-strap would be to where your panty-line runs across, that
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whole area was blown open. I lost half of my large and small intestines; I lost half
of my large and small bowels.
I was also told that had it not been for the surgeon that was present at the hospital I
would have had to have had a colostomy. I am completely embedded with
shrapnel. My right thigh was completely stripped of flesh and muscle, down to the
bone; my phenol artery was severed, I had to have several blood transfusions. I
now have an acrylic plate covering the few vessels which are still there. I have no
feeling in my right leg; I had several large pieces shrapnel removed from my leg. I
had a big hole in the back of the right leg which needed to be stitched and there
was no muscle left there. My feet were both burnt; I had minor shrapnel injuries
which I required stitching for on my lower calves.
I had such internal that injuries that they do not know yet whether I will be able to
carry children. I have had constant surgery for the last ten years. I am now
currently waiting for an operation to remove the acrylic plate in my leg because it
is working its way out and I have been told I stand a 50 percent chance of actually
losing my leg from the hip downwards because they do not know if they will be
able to do the operation successfully.
They plan to cut me from my right shoulder-blade down to my left hip - open my
back and take a large muscle out and do a muscular graph on my upper thigh. But
due to the damage to the blood supply they do not know whether the graft will
take, so they will not know whether or not I will be able to keep my leg. I have
been diagnosed with severe post-traumatic stress disorder and I go for counselling
to see a psychiatrist once every two weeks. I have done so for the last 18 months.
I have severe cellusitis in my right leg which causes me a great deal of pain and I
am often hospitalised through it. I have been unable to work through clinical
depression as well as my injuries. I sustained a full nervous breakdown; I have
constant flashbacks and nightmares, and basically my life is in a mess.
ADV STEENKAMP: Ms Clemenson you've heard the testimony yesterday of the
applicants. Can you indicate to the Committee why you are opposing the
application?
MS CLEMENSON: There was no political motive, I do not believe they disclosed
the full facts. I believe that what they said was blatant lies. They have ruined my
life and they have ruined my family's life, and I will never ever forgive that.
ADV STEENKAMP: Have you ever belonged or supported any political
organisation or movement while you were still in South Africa?
MS CLEMENSON: No Sir I was only 14, I was not aware of any political
organisations, or even understand the politics.
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ADV STEENKAMP: So at the time of the injury you were 14 years old?
MS CLEMENSON: Yes Sir.
ADV STEENKAMP: Ms Clemenson can you maybe just indicate, how did it
happen that you visited the Wimpy Bar at that specific time during these - why,
what happened?
MS CLEMENSON: I was out shopping with my father and his fiancee. We were
going clothes shopping, we were due to go for lunch at the Squirrels Nest. Time
was pressing on and we had made arrangements to meet friends, but obviously we
had missed them. We happened to be in the plaza because my father was looking
for a new jacket, and we were in the clothes shop next door, and I was hungry
basically and I insisted on going for a Wimpy because I like their Wimpy burgers
and we used to go there frequently from school.
ADV STEENKAMP: Am I right in saying that you were actually sitting next to the
person that was actually killed in the Wimpy Bar?
MS CLEMENSON: Yes Sir I asked Mary-Anne to move places so we could sit
down.
ADV STEENKAMP: You previously indicated that you think there was no
political, or there is no political motive for the applicants. Can you just elaborate
on that, why you're saying that? I mean the incident occurred - these applicants are
saying they did it because it was part and parcel of the struggle as it then existed.
How do you feel about that?
MS CLEMENSON: I don't believe it, I think that they were just looking for
extreme soft targets and that they were animals wanting to make themselves
known and going about it the completely wrong way. They had absolutely no
political motive whatsoever because they attacked children, they attacked whites
and they attacked blacks.
ADV STEENKAMP: And then lastly, can you remember how busy was the
Wimpy at that stage just before the incident?
MS CLEMENSON: Yes Sir, it was absolutely chock-a-block.
ADV STEENKAMP: Okay. Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. Thank
you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any questions Mr Koopedi?
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MR KOOPEDI: No questions for this witness.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Clemenson you were a resident of South Africa at the time?
MS CLEMENSON: Yes Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: You are now a resident of England?
MS CLEMENSON: Yes Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you emigrate because of this blast?
MS CLEMENSON: I went back to England with my mother because the Red
Cross were unable to fund my medical fees anymore, and my mother and myself
were very, very scared, so we went back to the United Kingdom to my other family
that was still there and I had all my further surgery back in England.
CHAIRPERSON: How would you feel if any one or all of these applicants who
now admit to having caused the blast were to approach you and make their peace
with you? How would you - what would be your attitude towards that?
MS CLEMENSON: I would not accept it because I do not believe that they are
genuine. I think they are just saying what they are saying to get amnesty, or
attempting to get amnesty to walk away. Their lives are intact, they may have
committed a number of offences, but they do not go home with the nightmares that
I have at night time; they do not close their eyes and see the Wimpy Bar; they do
not smell the burning flesh; they do not ...(indistinct) when they go out in the
...(indistinct); they do not see the horror on my family's faces when I undress and
they see my scars. I am unable to have a relationship with somebody because I am
so repulsed myself by my body, let alone let somebody else see it. There is nothing
that could ever put that right.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.
ADV STEENKAMP: May the witness be excused Mr Chairman thanks.
WITNESS IS EXCUSED
ADV STEENKAMP: The last witness I will be calling will be Mr Victor Serrano
Mr Chairman, Honourable Members. Mr Chairman there is also a request that the
son of Mr Serrano will be assisting him during his testimony if there is no
objections to it.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
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ADV STEENKAMP: Sorry Mr Chairman, it's Victor and then Serrano - S-E-R-R-
A-N-O. He will speak in English Mr Chairman.
Mr Chairman just before we start, maybe for the record and for the relevance of
this witness, this witness is the father of the late Mary Serrano who died in the
incident and it was the only deceased in the bomb blast. Thank you Mr Chairman.
VICTOR SERRANO: (duly sworn in, states)
EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Serrano
just before we start, you are currently a retired person. Can you indicate to the
Committee what was your occupation during 1988?
MR SERRANO: Mr Chairperson in 1988 I was a factory manager in
telecommunications organisation company in Boksburg.
ADV STEENKAMP: Am I also right in saying that the person - you are the father
of the person that was killed, can you give - and that was your daughter. Can you
give her full details to the Committee please.
MR SERRANO: My daughter Mary-Anne D'Oliveira Netto Serrano.
ADV STEENKAMP: It's D'Oliveira Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Oliveira.
ADV STEENKAMP: And can you indicate to the Committee how old was she
when she was killed?
MR SERRANO: My daughter was 21 years old.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you remember how it happened that she visited the
Wimpy Bar at that specific day of the incident?
MR SERRANO: Mr Chairperson it was usual, not just Mary-Anne, but sometimes
myself, my wife and the children to, we used to go to Benoni at the time, do
shopping, whatever, and we always stopped at the Wimpy Bar around this time to
have some food and refreshments. On this particular day my daughter Mary-Anne
she decided to go by herself. She went to pay some accounts and obviously again
the usual, she went to the Wimpy Bar. I believe she was expecting some friends,
some ex-colleagues from the South African ...(indistinct) where Mary-Anne was
working, did work before, and that's it.
ADV STEENKAMP: Just before we go to the applicants itself, you've indicated to
me that Mary-Anne was busy or was in a planning session of being married?
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MR SERRANO: Yes Mary-Anne she was engaged a week before and she planned
to be married in December.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Serrano you've listened and you've heard the evidence of
four applicants, all four of the applicants, can you tell the Chairperson and
honoured members why you are opposing the application?
MR SERRANO: Mr Chairman, Honourable table, I cannot understand why a bomb
so powerful as it was described yesterday was placed in a restaurant which at that
time in 1988 ...(indistinct), it was a little new South Africa of today.
As I stated before I myself with my family we used now and again to go to Wimpy
Bar to have a cold drink and so forth, and it was quite, I felt very good there
because it's a very small place which incidentally I find very strange that police
could meet there because we could almost hear the conversations in tables. The
tables were so close to each other that sometimes it was difficult to talk very loud.
Anyway, with a grandeur of people there of all races and even the waiters they're
always so kind, always full of jokes. In fact one of them is here today. And now
somebody, just for the sake perhaps of creating news to commemorate a specific
day for a specific organisation, goes and places a bomb, a super limpet mine.
No, I'm sorry, that was done purely for sensation, maybe to show that yes, my unit
is doing something. Nothing can justify terrorism that kills and maims innocent
people, particularly when the terrorists know very well what they're going to do.
I'll say even the motives presented by the applicants, I and my wife and my son, we
feel that attack on Wimpy Bar was a senseless, coward, terrorist act which served
no purpose at all, except to make news to commemorate a particular day of a
particular party or organisation.
Jesus while he was crucified he said "Father forgive them because they don't know
what they are doing". Now you people, the applicants, they knew very well what
they were going to do. I have to be - all of us, we have to be very careful, if you
allow me Mr Chairperson to mention this, you have to be very careful with
Esmarie, my wife. She never recovered. My wife at any time can have a stroke and
there is medical reports to confirm that.
My wife since that day, and because of the problems, the family, we're alone, we
haven't got any other family in this country - incidentally I'm a South African
citizen, thank you very much. I became immediately a South African citizen
because I was convinced that sooner or later something like the Truth and
Reconciliation Commission which I always believed could do, could find, could go
into the matter, and thank you, they are here today.
My wife has very high blood pressure and ...(indistinct), you cannot control that,
blood pressure, and she has to take medicines every day faithfully because
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according to our doctors, and this can be proved, my wife can never recover, her
heart is bumping, bumping at a very high rate. So I cannot forgive him, I cannot
forgive the applicants. I'll never forget it. Of course it is impossible to loose such a
lovely person as my daughter was. She had no political affiliations, and this will
live with us forever.
It could be by accident that she was in a cross-fire. There was no cross-fire in
Wimpy Bar, there was nothing there. If I am ordered to plant a bomb for a
particular, in a particular place to address a particular group of people or person, I
make sure that people or person are there before I trigger the thing. That was not
done. So you see Chairperson, Honourable table, I cannot forgive you.
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairperson that will be the evidence of Mr
Serrano.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi have you got any questions?
MR KOOPEDI: No questions for the witness thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Sir.
ADV STEENKAMP: May the witness be excused Mr Chairperson?
WITNESS EXCUSED
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairperson that will conclude the case for the victims in
both the Wimpy and the Katlehong incidents where people were injured on whose
behalf I've called these witnesses. I thank you for your indulgence Mr Chairperson.
Thank you Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi have you got any submissions to make before we
adjourn?
MR KOOPEDI: I would ask for some indulgence. I have prepared a closing
submission to yourselves. However I would ask for a few minutes to be able to see
whether one incorporate the evidence that has come in today in the submission.
The adjournment I'm asking for should not be for more than 5 minutes.
CHAIRPERSON: Well maybe you can use the time that Mr Steenkamp is going to
make his submission to decide what you want to amend. Mr Steenkamp?
ADV STEENKAMP ADDRESSES: Mr Chairperson if I can make a short
submission on behalf of the victims Mr Chairperson if you'd allow me.
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The basic case of the applicants were Mr Chairperson, that their political
motivation was that they identified the Wimpy Bar as a legitimate military target
because it was frequented by Security Police. The view of the victims are Mr
Chairperson, that first of all the applicants didn't make a full disclosure - at least on
the evidence of the third applicant Mr Ndlovu who admitted when he planted the
bomb there was no security personnel in the Wimpy at all. The view of the victims
are at that stage there was no ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: That's not what he said, he said he did not see any.
ADV STEENKAMP: I mean he didn't see anybody. The additional problem is Mr
Chairperson that according to the victims they don't understand how attack on a
civilian soft target like this could be described as a legitimate target. It is still the
view of all the victims in both these incidents Mr Chairperson that the applicants'
application my not succeed, it must fail for the pure fact that they had difficulty to
answer direct questions; they had difficulty to explain their political motive
properly; they didn't make a full disclosure in the amnesty application which was
originally presented before the Commission, although they submitted new
statements.
It's still the view of the victims Mr Chairperson that they are not in the position to
accept the applications of the applicants as it stand at this moment, and to conclude
their feeling is that they application of all the applicants must fail before this
Committee. As you wish Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: It seems to me that the opposition to the application centres
around the blasting of the Wimpy Bar restaurant. What - have you got any
submissions in respect of the other events for which application is made?
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairperson as - appearing for the victims, I'm only
appearing for the victims in the Katlehong and the Wimpy Bar incidents. With
regard to the other incidents Mr Chairperson, I don't have any submissions
whatsoever.
MS KHAMPEPE: But you as the Leader of Evidence Mr Steenkamp,
notwithstanding the fact that there are no representations for the other incidents
other than the Wimpy Bar, what is your view with regard to the applications in
relation to the other incidents as they stand? What is your personal view as the
Leader of Evidence?
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairperson I was actually coming to that. My view is
Mr Chairperson, to be fair to the applicants as well, that we were not able to
oppose those applications at all on the pure fact that we could not submit any
factual evidence to oppose that at all. So my view is Mr Chairperson, that the
evidence of the applicants as far as other incidences must go, must stand
uncontested. As you wish Mr Chair.
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CHAIRPERSON: Judged on its own?
ADV STEENKAMP: Judged on its own Mr Chairperson, on the merits of the case.
I hope that will answer the question Mr Chairperson.
MS KHAMPEPE: And do you think that having regard to the criteria, they admit
the criteria set out in terms of Section 20 Sub-Section 3?
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairperson my view is, and my only view, it's only my
personal view, is that the evidence as it stands is uncontested. Regarding the
requirements of Section 20 as stipulated in the Act, the only basic requirements is
to have a political motivation and furthermore to make a full disclosure. The bomb
blasts, the pile-ons and further on, the police officer they actually caught actually
supported the evidence in that regard as far as I'm concerned. He indicated that
they were used; they knew that targets were like pile-ons and throw-away stations
...(indistinct). So in actual fact the witness that was called by myself is actually
supporting that evidence. Nothing else except if you want to ask me anything else
Mr Chairperson. Thank you Sir.
MR KOOPEDI ADDRESSES: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Honourable
Committee Members it is my humble submission that all four applicants before
you should be granted amnesty. The four applicants seek amnesty for the actions of
the Johannes Nkosi Unit ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi have you got that all written out, typed out?
MR KOOPEDI: It's not, having regard to the time that I had. It is written out but
not typed up. I will endeavour to make copies and give them to yourselves.
CHAIRPERSON: I'd prefer for you just to give us headings rather than read the
whole thing out.
MR KOOPEDI: What I have before me is no more than four pages. If you would
bear with me, thank you. As I have stated the four applicants before you seek
amnesty for the actions of the Johannes Nkosi Unit and those acts can be found on
page 10 of the summation presented by the Commander of the Unit.
However their applications overlap to other actions by their sub-units. However the
applicants were able to make contact only with one such sub-unit which was the
Basil February Unit in Duduza, and could only give details about the actions of this
unit. Even though the applicants could not obtain any further details and the
whereabouts of other sub-units, they still did not conceal to you Honourable selves
the existence of these sub-units, and they further disclosed their level of
involvement with this unit.
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As it is clear that amnesty can only be granted for specific actions it is my
submission that the applicants should be granted amnesty also for their
involvement in the Basil February Unit. With regards ...(intervention)
MS KHAMPEPE: Do we have information, do we have sufficient information
with regard to the specific offences committed by that sub-unit? Has any relevant
and sufficient information led before us with regard to those acts?
MR KOOPEDI: I will say the answer to that is two-fold Honourable member in
that the applicants have enumerated, have specified their offences or acts of the
Basil February Unit to the best of their knowledge. Now what I'm asking for is that
amnesty should be considered for their involvement up to that level of assisting
and supplying whatever weaponry to this unit.
MS KHAMPEPE: Yes I thought you were asking for amnesty in relation to the
attacks on counsellors that were alleged to have been committed by the February
Unit.
MR KOOPEDI: On the contrary, what I - what we're asking amnesty for is our
involvement with that. Now I am not sure whether anyone can interpret that to
overflow to the actual execution of those acts, but however the applicants feel that
they trained this unit; they supplied this unit with weaponry and they taught them
all sorts of things, and it's only fair to ask for amnesty in that it is believed, that if
the applicants had, that the unit, the sub-unit has asked for amnesty, that unit is
going to say to your Honourable selves, if they come before you, that they were
trained by this unit, the Johannes Nkosi Unit; and we believe that it would be a big
error not to include and seek amnesty for our involvement or the applicants'
involvement with the Basil February Unit.
MS KHAMPEPE: Are you asking for amnesty for having illegally possessed
weapons and ammunition?
MR KOOPEDI: To add on that, it's that, but not only that. But we have, if you like,
instigated this other unit to go and do certain acts.
MS KHAMPEPE: There is no evidence that they ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: You see Mr Koopedi it's unnecessary for members of this panel
to ask those questions, but we find ourselves in that position where we have to ask
those questions. Someone hasn't done his homework, because you ask us now on
behalf of your applicants to grant amnesty. Now for what must we grant amnesty?
What crime are these applicants asking to be pardoned for?
MR KOOPEDI: I think what they are asking to be pardoned for is to posses the
weapons, the hand-grenades that were used, to supply these weapons, and also to
give orders to this unit to carry out attacks.
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MS KHAMPEPE: There is no evidence that an attack was carried out as a result of
the orders given by your clients. We don't have that evidence.
MR KOOPEDI: If you will allow me I will not deliberate that point, however I
thought it's incumbent on me to stress that the applicants are interested in the
activities of their sub-units.
CHAIRPERSON: You've made the point as far as you can make it.
MR KOOPEDI: Yes. I'm indebted Chairperson. Now I have with regards to
activities of the other sub-units which we do not have details on ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Well then skip that.
MR KOOPEDI: As it pleases you Chairperson. During cross-examination of the
applicants yesterday my learned friend advocate Steenkamp presented a newspaper
cutting which purported to state ANC policy on the attack on the Wimpy Bar in
Benoni.
CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, let us get one thing straight, I don't think
you need to argue on anything else but the Wimpy aspect because I think it's
virtually been conceded that there's a better than good chance on the successful
application in respect of the other events. The Wimpy one seems to be the focal
issue for which we want to, on which we want you to argue.
MR KOOPEDI: I'm indebted Chairperson and you will notice that my entire
address will revolve around that issue. Now I have gone through the ANC's
submissions, the written and oral submissions which were made to the TRC, and
there is nowhere that the ANC states that the attack on Wimpy was a result of a
mix-up within the ANC structures. And because there has not been any evidence to
corroborate what comes out of that newspaper cutting I would request that Exhibit
B be disregarded in all its aspects as it bears no authority and authenticity.
MS KHAMPEPE: Is there any evidence on the ANC's submissions that you have
referred to that support the actions taken by your clients?
MR KOOPEDI: I am not able to pinpoint the relevant page, but I believe it will
suffice to say that in the voluminous submissions that have been given, handed in
to the TRC, the ANC has acknowledged that Wimpy, the Wimpy Bar in Benoni
attack was their operation, was an ANC operation. They have not distanced
themselves from that operation. Now there is ...(indistinct)
CHAIRPERSON: It's fine to say they did not distance themselves. Did they
associate themselves with it?
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MR KOOPEDI: Indeed they did, the Wimpy is listed as one of the attacks that
were carried out by ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: No that is so, I don't think it is in dispute that any of these
applicants are members of Umkhonto weSizwe and ANC, but the drafters of that
submission, is it specifically stated - I will check it, but I'm hoping that you can
help me here, I don't recall the exact wording, is it stated in that submission that the
ANC in its policy associated itself with the bombing or blasting of Wimpy, or have
they just listed the Wimpy blast in Benoni as an event that was caused by members
of the ANC?
MR KOOPEDI: On the submissions as I can recall, Wimpy appears only as listed,
and not as, there are no further elaborations. However I would with your
indulgence, wish to show further that there is more than listing of Wimpy, there is,
there was association with this act by the ANC.
MS KHAMPEPE: I think it will be better for you Mr Koopedi to do that, because
if I recall the submissions and the listing of various incidents that are contained in
that submission, they are contained therein because the ANC has associated
themselves with regard to a number of them, as listed in the submission. So I think
it would be better for you to check and give us more information with regard to the
point you are making.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Madam Commissioner. If I may go on, re-visit the
issue. Now I also wish to draw the attention of this Honourable Committee to a
publication named Seshaba. I believe you would know that this was the ANC's
newsletter whilst in exile. I would refer you to the January issue of Seshaba of
1983, page 1 thereof, and I have made copies of this publication and other
publications I'm going to be referring you to.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) there's two issues that concern us in this
application and it's based on the opposition. Firstly on what basis is it alleged that a
bomb was blasted in that Wimpy for political reasons; and whether any of the
applicants or all of them have made full disclosure in compliance with the Act.
Those are the two issues we want to hear. We are quite aware of what certain
Seshaba's and the - all the documents of the ANC. We are also aware of the then
president of the ANC, what he said about taking the fight to wherever we needed
to take it. Address us on the merits of this application.
MR KOOPEDI: This is indeed what I am endeavouring to do, I am trying to show
you Honourable Committee Members that from these publications and other forms
of communication it will be seen as to why and how the applicants descended on
Wimpy. It will also be explained and this is an endeavour to show that it was - the
attack on Wimpy was - had many facets to it. The attack on Wimpy was a political
action ...(intervention)
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CHAIRPERSON: I will be very surprised if you are able to prove that to us
because your own clients tell us that the reason Wimpy was blasted because they
were after the Security Police - for no other reason.
MR KOOPEDI: May I also with respect remind you Honourable Chairperson that
it was in fact elaborated on at some stage and during the testimony that it was not
only to get at the security personnel, but it went beyond that. It went towards the
commemoration - the 67th commemoration of the South African Communist
Party; it went towards spreading the necessary propaganda and the issue that was
termed "like taking away the honeymoons from the TV screens", and I would urge
strongly so that the Committee members should please consider that the applicants
before you did not attack Wimpy simply for the one reason, there were a number
of reasons.
MS KHAMPEPE: That in mind Mr Koopedi, I'm with you. Having that in mind,
are you then able to crisply address us on what basis was Wimpy targeted - having
all those reasons in mind, are you able to crisply address us on that. What was the
basis for choosing Wimpy as a target, what ...(inaudible), and why is it considered
a legitimate target, having regard to the Seshaba issue that you've alluded to, and
having regard to the political objectives that you have stated was intended by your
applicants, what was the reason why Wimpy was targeted for purposes of
propagating the objectives of your clients?
MR KOOPEDI: I am a little lost in what you have suggested, which is whether I
am able to crisply address you on that.
CHAIRPERSON: Let me make it easier for you to understand then. If a bomb blast
which I've got serious doubts about was to commemorate a birthday or a particular
date of the South African Communist Party, why was Wimpy the target for that,
why not the Union Buildings?
MR KOOPEDI: I would with respect urge the Honourable Committee Members to
not only single out the reasons, and consider each reasons for attacking Wimpy in
isolation. The evidence before you has been that there were a number of reasons
that led to Wimpy. Initially ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Give us those reasons, let's list it. It was seeking out security
policemen; commemorating a particular significant day of the South African
Communist Party, what else?
MR KOOPEDI: An armed propaganda tactic.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what else?
MR KOOPEDI: A respond to a call by the leadership of the ANC to take war into
the white areas, and I think those should suffice in terms of the reasonings.
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CHAIRPERSON: The last three, how does Wimpy become a target for that?
MR KOOPEDI: Evidence was led before you that initially the idea was to focus on
the security personnel in Benoni who was responsible for the mayhem in the East
Rand. Now that is how we come to Benoni, because that is where the headquarters
was. But then as events turned out, the security personnel were seen to be
frequenting Wimpy, and as evidence was given to yourselves that at Wimpy this is
where they would be most vulnerable, and that has not been hidden to yourselves.
And that is why people then decided to go to Wimpy.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi I've just been talking to one of my colleagues
...(inaudible)
PROBLEMS WITH RECORDING EQUIPMENT - INAUDIBLE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi we feel that we're asking you questions that you are
not able to readily at this point in time answer satisfactorily without having the
benefit of the documents that you refer to. Would it be not better to invite you to
make written heads or written submissions to us by next Wednesday, and submit it
to Cape Town head office.
Deal with the issues that we've raised with you, in addition to one important issue
that we want you to address specifically. It's the question of proportionality. Would
that be better - not better to do that?
MR KOOPEDI: I will gladly accept that proposition.
CHAIRPERSON: We will await your heads of argument then, but deal with those
issues that we've raised with you in addition to the issue of proportionality.
We've come to the end of this hearing. We hope to be able to make a decision on
the issues very soon after receiving Mr Koopedi's argument. And I want to thank
the logistics officer for arranging this hearing. Also special thanks to all the
interpreters, it is a thankless job, it is a difficult job. To the applicants for taking
advantage of the opportunities to come to terms with life. And in particular I want
to address the victims and those people who have lost love ones. Unfortunately this
country has experienced a terrible life over the last couple of hundred years.
There are other people who have similarly lost loved ones, especially during the
times, the height of the apartheid regime. That does not, and I don't intend to
suggest, that what happened in the events which we are concerned with is justified.
If for nothing else, for humanitarian reasons one can appreciate the feelings and the
hurt that you experience, and one can only hope that in an endeavour to bring to
fruition what we started in this country in 1994, that we can, with time, come to
terms with what has happened.
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I'm not going to suggest forgiving or forgetting, that is a matter for each individual
person, but I can only hope that with time the emotional aspects of your lives will
tend to be remedied. I'm not too sure what we're going to find or what decision
we're going to come to in this matter, I can only draw your attention to the fact that
this Committee intends to apply the law as best it can, and whatever decision we
make will be in terms of that law, and probably in the interest of this country.
I thank those victims and those who lost their loved ones for participating in this
extraordinary and unusual process. It is intended to bring people together like we
should have been many hundreds of years ago, but as I said it was an unfortunate
experience of this country, and it is the duty of each of us to press on so that we
rectify the wrongs as best we can.
This hearing is now closed, I thank you.
HEARING ADJOURNS
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