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TRANSCRIPTOF PROCEEDINGS
ORIGINAL UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
PUBLIC MEETING
PROPOSED CLEANUP ALTERNATIVESFOR THE
THE L. A. CLARKE SUPERFUND SITE
SPOTSYLVANIA COUNTY, VIRGINIA
Spotsylvania County, Virginia
Wednesday, March 9, 1988
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
PUBLIC MEETING
PROPOSED CLEANUP ALTERNATIVES
FOR THE
L. A. CLARKE SUPERFUND SITE
SPOTSYLVANIA COUNTY, VIRGINIA
WEDNESDAY, MARCti 9, 1988...i
Lee Hill Community Center
Routes 2 & 17, Junction Route 608
Spotsylvania County, Virginia
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PANEL PARTICIPANTS
RAY GERMANN, Public .Affairs. Special is t .
U.S. EPA - Region III '"... . -"._" - . . - "
841 Chestnut Street . . - - -
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19107
DARIUS OSTRAUSKAS, Remedial Project Manager
U.S. E P A Region I I I ._... . . _ . . . " . . -
841 Chestnut Street,
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania ,19107 ._ .. .
KIMBALL PAYNE, County Administrator
Spotsylvania, County, Virginia
JONATHAN D. HORIN, Environmental Engineer Senior
Department of Waste Management
Commonwealth of Virginia . _
101 North.._14th Street "
Richmond, Virginia 23219 -/
JOHN V. ROLAND, Assistant Director of Operations
Office of Enforcement
State Water Control Board
P. 0, Box 11143
Richmond, Virginia 23230
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FREDERICK K. CUNNINGHAM, Water Control Engineer
Virginia Water Control Board _. . ; . . " . . ... ,._
2111 N. Hamilton Street • - - - :
Richmond, Virginia 23230-1143
GREG CLAYTON
Air Pollution Specialist
Nine Counties in Virginia
Air Pollution Control Board
K. C. DAS, Ph.D., Director
Administration and Special.-Programs
Department of Waste Management
1 0 1 North 14th Street • ; . - • -
Richmond, Virginia 23219 —- . . .. _.....__ .-_
HUGH COSNER, Supervisor . _ . " . [ " . . . _ "
Lee Hill District :
Spotsylvania, County, Virginia
* * * * *
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P R O C E E D I N G S
. . . The Public Meeting to Present a Summary
of the RI/FS and the Proposed Remedy for the L. A. Clarke
Site convened, pursuant to notice, at 7:30 p.m., Ray
Germann, presiding . . .
MR. PAYNE: I would like to welcome everybody
here tonight.
I think we all know why we are here, but I
would like.to bv? way of a few opening remarks explain some
of the reasons behind this meeting.
This meeting is really designed to- serve two
purposes. Firs.t of all, the meeting is being held in
accordance with some of the regulatory requirements under
the Superfund Program to allow the Environmental
Protection Agency to. receive public comment on the
remedial investigation and feasibility study that has been
conducted at the L. A. Clarke site over the last several
years. . . . . . _
That is the main purpose of why we are here
tonight, and we want to concentrate on that first.
There is another purpose as well. The Board of
Supervisors of Spotsylvania County has requested that in
addition to us hearing about the Superfund progress on the
site, that a number of State agencies also be present so
that they can explain the ongoing day-to-day activities at
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the site and also so that you can get a better
understanding of what the State agencies'.,.. role is in
relationship to the Superfund_program and in relationship
to the Environmental Protection agency.
We have individuals here from the State
Department of Waste Management, the State Water Control
7 ij Board and the State Air Pollution Control-Board.
I would like to introduce some of thoseiindividuals right now.
From the Virginia Department of Waste
Management we have Mr. K. C. Das .and Mr. John Horin.
If you would just-stand and raise your hands so
people will know who you are.
(Mr. Das and Mr. Horin stand in the audience,)
From the Virginia Air pollution Control Board,
Mr. Lew Baumann and Mr. Greg Clayton.
audience.)
(Mr. Baumann and Mr. Clayton stand in the
From the State Water Control Board we have Mr.
Gary Moore, Ms. Kathleen O'Connell, Mr. Cunningham and Ms.
Melanie Donohue.
(Ms. O'Connell, Ms. Donohue, Mr. Moore and Mr.
Cunningham stand.)
They are clustered up here in the front.
Also, I would like to-recognize Mr. Hugh
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Cosner, the Supervisor for the Lee High District who is
here tonight .in the _audience...._.
(Mr. Cosner stands.).
The meeting tonight wi.ll initially start and
initially be run by the representatives who are up here
from the Environmental Protection Agency. They do have
certain regulatory requirements that they have to meet.
That is why the meeting is being recorded.
Once do their presentation on the superfund
activities and explain what they have done there and
answer your questions, then we will be able to concentrate
on any questions that you might have from the people from
the State agencies.,..
At this -time let me introduce the two main
people from the Environmental Protection Agency, Mr.
Darius Ostrauskas from Region III in Philadelphia and Mr.
Ray Germann, who I believe you have seen before, those of
you who were here two years ago.
At this time I'm just going to turn this over
to Ray
Thank you.
MR. GERMANN: Thank you, Kirn.
Like Kirn said, the primary purpose that the EPA
is here tonight is to try to get comments on a proposed
•remedial cleanup remedy for the L. A. Clarke Superfund
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site.
7
I know that people have a lot of different
concerns, not necessarily related to this particular part
of the^project that we are involved in tonight, but we
want to_ spend some time on this because we are nearing a
point in this project where we are ready to make a
decision on what is going to. be the final cleanup option .
chosen for this particular portion of the cleanup at L. A
Clarke.
We are going to. explain it using these maps and
those fact sheets in a little bit of detail to try to give
you an idea of what we are considered doing, the studies
that we have done and what at this point we are looking
toward as a final cleanup option.i
Just to go over basically what has happened ini
the last couple of years, studies that we did over the
first year or year and a half of that process were
summarized in a document called a. Remedial Investigation.
What that is basically is a compilation of"all
the data that we have gathered up to that particular point
in time, and it includes sampling of groundwater, soil,
sediment and a whole variety of media, and it's put
together in a report which forms the basis for a final
decision on the cleanup.
Now this final decision is based on a document
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called a feasibility study. This remedial investigation
and feasibility study is the primary document which
supports a cleanup by the EP_A ..under..the Superfund program.
So-we have finished .that remedial investigation
and feasibility study now and we have something called a
proposed plan, which is that document that most of you
should have in your hands there, and that summarizes
everything we have done over the last.two years and it
tells you. want .alternative looks "to this agency and to the
State Department of .Waste=. Management and the best cleanup
alternative for this site.
One of the functions of this meeting is to get
input on that tentative decision. The comments that do.
come up here tonight will be and are by law considered as
part of'the public record toward the decision on the final
cleanup.
So, like I say, it's .very important that we try
to get a little bit of focus on the meeting tonight, at
least initially, so that we can get some comments on that
study and this, part of the cleanup.
There is.going to be another aspect to the
Superfund process. It complicates things a little bit,
but the plan that we are talking about tonight deals
specifically with soil _onsite and sediment, what are
thought to be the sources of contamination.
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So that we are going to direct our efforts
initially toward what we think are the sources of
contamination, remove the sources and that will be our
first step in removing the problem.
The next step, which is expected to begin thisi
summer, is an examination or a more in-depth examinationi
of groundwater, something that i: know a lot of you are
concerned about because you drink it, and the surroundingi
environment, areas such as Massaponax Creek, for example,
and ponds=in the general vicinity.
In such a second Darius is going to get up and
explain this particular part, this first part of the
Superfund cleanup process.
There are several other, as Kirn said, severali
other agencies involved in the regulation _of..,that
facility, and I'm just going to touch briefly on some of
their responsibilities.
Like I say, the EPA and the Department of Waste
Management are primarily at this time concerned with the
Superfund cleanup. That is primarily what we are involved
in, although we do have input in the other aspects of the
examination of the facility.
The State Water Control Board at this time is
quite active in their regulation of the facility. Some of
you might know that there is a public hearing within the
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next couple of weeks regarding permits issued to that
facility which enable them to discharge into local streams
and rivers, and that...is, like I say, one of the problems
that we are facing here.
That is not a completely different aspect of
the project, but one that is not included in this plan
that we are here to .discuss tonight, although we do have
people who can try to.answer to answer your questions
regarding"that if need..be.
The State Air Pollution Control Board, as you
know, was heavily involved, and still is, but was more
heavily involved in th is whole issue maybe a couple of
years ago, or as recently as a year or so ago when the
emissions from the plant were a lot more serious than I
think that they are today. That obviously is their
primary responsibility, regulating emissions from
processes that go on there.
The County of Spotsylvania also has been very
involved, especially in trying to minimize odors from the
facility, and they have a legal agreement with the
facility that is designed to control that odor problem.
Then all the agencies I mentioned and the
Governor's office of the State of Virginia have a concern
of trying to, while competently regulating the L. A.
Clarke facility,' keeping these gentlemen in business so
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.rysimons 1 that they can continue to be a productive part of your
2 economy.
3 That is a goal that we are all striving towards
4 is both, having them in business and having them operate In
5 the way that is for the people who live around the
6 facility.
7 At this point I'm going to turn the., meet ing
8 over to Darius so that he can get into some of the details
9 specifically of what we are here at EPA an agency to talk
10 about tonight.
11 If you would .:just let him get through his
12 proposal, and then if you could ask any questions that you
13 might have on that.proposal and on the information that he
14 give you, we1!! try to answer them at that time.
15 i As soon as that period, of time is over, we'll
16 open the meeting up to any other questions regarding thati
17 facility that you may have. i18 Now we are going to try to as strictly as we
19 can adhere to that schedule. Obviously we are not going
20 to be ridiculous about the whole thing. If somebody
21 thinks of a question later that they didn't ask before,
22 please do so. But that's the way we are going to-__try to
23 handle it. - .-
24 So I'm going to turn it over to Darius now and
25 he is going to go through the proposed plan.
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Thank you.
(Mr.. Ostrauskas gives his presentation using
large diagrams as reference._material. )
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Generally I guess one way toj —,summarize what the Superfund program is all about, it is-
designed primarily to deal with. re_mediation of
contamination that has been caused.due.to the improper
handl ing of" hazardous was.te-.materials -
The Superfund is not .designed, for instance, to
regulate active facilities- that discharge, for instance,
processed.waste waters due to their active operations or
emit, air emissions from a facility due to active
operations.
The Superfund is generally designed to address
what we would generally consider abandoned waste
materials, waste materials that have been deposited in the
environment in a way that they are just not properly
contained and therefore potentially present a threat to
either human health or the environment.
So that is why with all these issues regarding
the active operation why Superfund really doesn't get
involved with that. Even though there might be some sort
of problem potentially associated with active operations,
that is just not the nature of the Superfund program to
deal =with that.
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So what I will be talking about generally is
how we deal with really contamination that for all intentsi
and purposes has resulted from this facility's operations
since 1937, which is when the facility actually began
ooeration.
As you are probably aware, L, A. Clarke and
Son, "^corporated, is a wood treatment facility that has
used creosote since about 19-37. I'm sure you all are
familiar with the general location of the facility. Route
is 608-over here and what we have is Massaponax Creek
running towards Ruffins Pond, which I guess is two miles
or so downstream.
You've got residents living along 608 here and
also residents living up just north of the .facility here
on 609 and also south on 609 a little ways down the road.
I guess all the residents here are on private wells the
way I"understand it.
This area in here between the facility itself
and the creek is in fact what we consider to be a wetland
according to different species of, plants that occur there,
and actually even part of the site itself in this area is
what we consider a wetland meadow type area.
So this is the type of area that, for instance,
the EPA is interested in protecting because of its unique
character.
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In terms of the site itself ——
FROM THE FLOOR: " Would you go back over what
E.PA was referring to as the wetland area? Would you
restate that. I couldn't catch it.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, generally the wetlands ..
are .protected by ..the_ EPA in a certain manner —-
FROM THE FLOOR: Walt a minute. Generally they
are in a certain manner, would you elaborate, because I'm
listening now, and I didn' t.= really understand.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: What I'm saying is that if you
have a particular piece of land that has a certain type of
plant growing on it, that that will render that piece of
land a wetlands. In Federal law there are certain laws
that say that if a piece of land is called a wetland, then
you have to follow certain rules and regulations
regarding, for instance, building there or doing anything
there.
So that there are, for instance, different
Federal Executive Orders and things of that nature which
say, for instance, if you want to build a house here in
this wetland, you have to follow "certain requirements that
are spelled basically in the law.
That's why I mentioned this, that this area in
here is in fact this type of area because of the type of
plants that occur there.
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FROM THE FLOOR: Would. I thinking along the
right lines if something were damaging those p_lants other
than building a house that there might be..a Federal law
that might protect that, area, the water and the plantsjthat grow there?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Yes. ' Well, that is what we
are here about. " , ~ -- - —
FROM THE FLOOR: Thank you.
FROM THE FLOOR: I've got a question ——i
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: I think, as Ray said, I can
answer questions, but I've got to go through, and maybe
after ——
MR. GERMANN: If you could keep a mental note
of your question.
FROM THE FLOOR: I've got.one question that I
think should be answered. I run a plant, and I amipersonally liable by the Federal Government by what I say
and what I do. How many of you up here are personally
liable by what you say and what you do?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: I'm very liable.
FROM THE FLOOR: I'm personally liable by
Federal law by what I do. Now are you personally liable
by what you do?
MR. GERMANN: Well, the answer is we are all
personally liable. I mean we have all been threatened by
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suits or are faced with suits ——
FROM THE FLOOR: By what you say tonight are
you personally liable or not?
MR. GERMANN: I don't understand yourj *question. ..We are going to have to go on with this thing
because I don't understand what you're asking.
FROM THE FLOOR: Okay. Thank you.
FROM THE FLOOR: You won't commit, in other
words, right? " ..
MR. GERMANN: I guess that's right. ..
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: At any rate, I mean I'm just
describing that this is a wetland area here. In terms of
the facility itself, the kinds of features that are
important are, for instance, you have the actual
processing facility located in this portion of the site.
Also, we have a lagoon here, for instance, which is
basically a pond that has been created in which waste
water is stored after use.
We've got-a couple of drainage ditches. We
have one drainage ditch running this way here, and we have
another drainage ditch running here, and also we have
another drainage ditch going through this part of the
site, and they are basically designed to discharge storm
water runoff from the facility.
If you have water, for instance, running down
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this direction, it will eventually find its way into these
ditches, and also I guess during the years probably at
some point process water from the^ facility itself probably
made its way into these ditches.* •We have a soil pile here .that was created when
I guess~there was a spill of sorts around .the facility ati
one point and the State Water Control Board requested that
some of the contaminated soil be excavated, and that soil
has been put on a liner in this area in here. That isi
another feature of concern.
Also, we do have of course groundwater
underlying the facility, and what: you have is a situation
where there is a clay layer that, of instance, lies
approximately 12 feet below the process facility and,
depending on what part of the site you're on, it's at
16 j least several feet thick, if not more.
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What you have then is two water bearing bodies
essentially of concern on the site. You have one that
sits on top of this clay layer, and then you have another
water bearing body which lies below this clay layer.
Over the years of course since the facility has
been operating since 1937, waste water that has been
generated during operations has been handled in several
different ways. We are not entirely aware of how waste
water was handled in early years of operation, but I would
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hazard to guess that, there is probably a chance that at
least some waste was actually going into these ditches
directly "at s_ome~ point in time.
.Also, of. cours'e", another matter that you're
probably aware of is the use of the dehydrator that was
causing the air problems, that was another manner in which
waste .water was handled-at one point.
At other times what we found through aerial
photographs was that there were a series of pits that we
have identified where-it appeared that waste water and/or
what, we call sludge, which is_.basically the contaminated
material that settles at the bottom of waste water, was
being apparently disposed of in several pits around the
site. As you can see, these are the locations that we
picked.up from the aerial photographs.
Also, this lagoon here was used for disposal of
waste water at one ..time as well. Occasionally the lagoon
apparently would overflow and there wa.s. apparently this so-
called -overflow lagoon area here where you did have, for
instance, waste water actually would run out of the lagoon
and sometimes cover this area in here.
Also, I guess spraying of waste water was
another manner in which the waste.water as disposed of.
Now in terms of the extent of contamination at
the site, I'm going to -- help me flip that over.
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.rysimons 1 (New chart displayed.)
2 What "I. have put together here is sort of a
3 graphic representation. I've tried to summarize on this
4 map here what we have have found to be what I :calL here
5 the primary and secondary sources of contamination at.the
6 site. t
7 What we have is contaminated soil and sedimenti
8 materials that have resulted from the various practices
9 over the years of the facility's operation on this map
10 depicted in sort of a generalized manner.
11 This is put together primarily with information
12 from the RFS Study, the remedial Investigation part in
13 particular which was the so-called extent of contamination
14 study.
15 The sources of the contamination, soil andi
16 sediment contamination at the site are primarily the types
17 of practices I was talking about, and I'll get into that a
18 little bit more now.
19 First of all, may be I should discuss what are
20 we concerned about here exactly in terms of contaminants,
21 and what exactly is the problem here.
22 Well, really the material of concern here is
23 creosote itself. Creosote actually consists of a very
24 large group of compounds, many of which do have
25 significant toxicity, and if exposed to high
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concentrations of these compounds over a long period of
time, it could potentially cause detrimental health
effects. :...-: : "• il~; T- - ~:: ~.--.-—.:~:=-.-~-
So that as a result, the creosote compounds arejwhat we are concerned about, and in particular there are
two groups of compounds within creosote. There is the so-
called polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbon compounds, which
we call PNAs.. for short, and then the other types of
compounds that we are concerned about are called aromatic
compounds, but essentially the main contaminant we are
concerned about out of this so-called group of aromatic
compounds that occurs in creosote is benzene.
So that in terms of contaminants of concern,
what we are looking at are _these so-called PNAs and
benzene, and what this particular map here shows ——
FROM THE FLOOR: Is aromatics airborne?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Pardon me?
FROM THE FLOOR: Would aromatics be airborne?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Aromatics are, I don't know
how to best describe it, they are solvents. Like, for
instance, benzene is an organic solvent and it'sic ——
airborne?
FROM THE FLOOR: But are they prone to be
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Oh, yes. Aromatics, for
instance, benzene is a volatile compound that can go into
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^rysimons 1 the atmosphere.
2 FROM THE FLOOR: It immediately goes into the
3 atmosphere, right?
4 a ' MR. OSTRAUSKAS: It can, yes.
5 FROM THE FLOOR: Could, I ask one question,ii
6 please, before you go any further. When you mention PNAs,
7 how many different chemicals are you talking about in the
8 PNAs? Are you talking one or two or 25 or.more?
9 | MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Oh, no, you're talking about
10 literally probably over a hundred.
11 FROM THE FLOOR: So when you say PNAs, make
12 sure .you express it that is has different chemicals.
13 MR. OSTRAUSKAS: What you have, and creosote,
14 as I said, is made up of a very large number of thesei
15 different types of organic compounds. What we do is
16 essentially just look at the total -concentration of these
17 PNA compounds.
18 So what this map here shows is where the
19 highest concentrations of PNAs have been found to-be at
20 the site. Why don't I go through the areas that we have
21 mapped here.
22 FROM THE FLOOR: Do you have a list of-the PNAs
23 that have been found at the site?
24 MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, any wood treatment
25 facility that uses creosote, it's going to have the same_
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group of PNAs found there.
FROM THE FLOOR: Is that just dioxin and
phenols and all this other stuff?
MR.- OSTRAUSKAS: No. Dioxin is not found ina . . .
creoso.te. Phenols are found in creosote. Phenols,
however, are not a PNA compound and they are not one of
the compounds that we are concerned about primarily. I'll
get into thai a little bi.t..—-
FROM THE FLOOR: I'm concerned because it was
found in ray well.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: I'll get into that a little
bit later on, but right now I just want to make it clear,
that PNAs and benzene are the two most toxic compounds
that we're concerned about in this particular case.
FROM THE FLOOR: I was under the impression
that you all were concerned about any ill-causing, any
chemical that: would be that that would deal with a health
problem. I didn't think we were going to come here
tonight after many times and hear you people say I'm only
concerned about one, two or three chemicals. If it's a
health problem, I think you ought to be concerned about
it, and I hope that you are.
FROM THE FLOOR: All of them.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: We are concerned about them,
and maybe I'm —— ;
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; 23FROM THE FLOOR: You're not bringing that as a
point, sir. You're trying to._f loat ...over the issue.
FROM THE FLOOR: You're trying to speak abovei
our heads is what .you're trying to do.cFROM THE FLOOR: You're trying to talk pyer ——
heads.
FROM THE FLOOR: You're trying to talk over our
MR. GERMANN: Now wait a second. What is it
exactly that you don't understand?
FROM THE FLOOR: I""think the man in the fronti
of the room ought to sit down and, let the people ask some
questions.
FROM THE FLOOR: You know, your chemicals.
you're speaking above our heads.
little ——
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, maybe I can explain___it a
FROM THE FLOOR: Was the chemicals of the 30's
and_creosote the same.as the chemicals in the 70's?
FROM THE FLOOR: Good point.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Pardon me?
FROM THE FLOOR: Are the same chemicals in the
1930's they used the same chemicals in the 1970's a n d _ _
80's?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: As far we know, the only
chemical that has ever been used for wood treatment at
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this facility is creosote, and we have never——
FROM THE FLOOR: Yes, but has creosoie kept the
same chemicals ——
FROM THE..FLOOR: Is, it. comprised of the same
elements as it was in the 1930's.
FROM THE FLOOR: Was it the same in 1930 as it
is in 1980? ...... . ... .
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: I mean essentially it's the
same — yes, creosote is a derivative-of coal tar and
different facilities, for instance, may use certain
creosote solutions that might differ slightly in terms of
content, but essentially they consist of the same types of
compounds.
Really, I would like to make it simpler. I
don't know what more to say other than these PNA ——
FROM THE FLOOR: PNA, I don't know what PNA
is. I've got no more idea ..what PNA is than ——
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, maybe the best way to
. look at it is creosote itself is a compound that we are
concerned about, and if you're exposed to creosote itself
over long periods of time -- for instance, if you have
drinking water that had a little bit of creosote dissolved
in it, that we would.be concerned about that because you
don't want to be drinking water that has a little bit of
creosote dissolved in it.
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^rysimons 1 So that is what this is all about. What we
2 want to do is prevent water —— , " ;
3 FROM THE FLOOR: Is creosote made of coal tar?
4 MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Yes, 'that's right. It's aa
5 coal tar derivative.
6 FROM THE FLOOR: "Is it, accumulated coal dust?
7 - MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Pardo^n me?i8 FROM THE FLOOR: Is that made out of coal dust?
9 -- MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Coal !tar is made from coal.i10 FROM THE FLOOR: Ain't that hazardous to your
11 lungs?
12 MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Yes. Well, it's related,
13 that's right.
14 FROM THE FLOOR: I'll |tell you;, something, Ii
15 worked for the mines for damn near 20 years, and that coali
16 is made of coal tar?
17 MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well,' what you do is you make
18 creosote from coal, and coal tar is the derivative, of coal
19 and creosote — you can't make a connection between coal,
20 for instance, and creosote.
21_ FROM THE FLOOR: It's a substance of coal,
22 right?
23 MR. OSTRAUSKAS: As I said, I don't think you
24 can make ——
25 MR. GERMANN: Listen, excuse me. I jus_t want
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him to be able to get through his presentation. He'll
answer all the questions you have, I promise you.
FROM THE FLOOR: Well, we want to understand
what he's —- . ---.^,-~--^ - -j
MR. GERMANN: See, what's happening is.people
are losing their train of thought, and not understanding
the point he's trying to. make. So let him make his point
and then we'll answer your "questions.
All right?
(Disgruntlement expressed from the audience.)
Whatever will get us rolling again.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: The main thing is to just
understand that creosote is what we are concerned about
here, and I don't want to get too much into the chemistry
of creosote.
But generally the areas where you have the
highest creosote levels in the soil are marked in the
yellow here. For instance, these drainage ditches here
that over the years creosote has collected in -the sediment
and in the drainage ditch, and some of it has made its way
down into this wetlands here, for instance.
If you go maybe between one and five feet below
ground surface in this area you'll find high
concentrations of creosote in this area here.
In this area here where you had overflows of _..
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this lagoon, because the waste water from the plant, which
had creosote in it overflowed from the lagoon, you have
creosote in these soils here around this lagoon.
The soil pile which was dug up in an area where3 i
there was a spill of creosote, again, you've got creosote
in this soil in this pile here.
This area in here, what we've seen is that
there has been creosote just spilled on the surface here,
so that you have high creosote levels on the surface, andi
then also in the same area you'll have creosote levels
actually below ground sitting on this clay lawyer that is
about 12 feet below the ground.
FROM THE FLOOR: I would like to ——
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Please, sir, if you would just
let me keep going ——
FROM THE FLOOR: This is an interest point to
me though. When you dug that soil .up did you have a
document or any type of paperwork where that soil went to,
or does anybody know where that soil went to? •
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: We didn't dig it up. You
don't understand. What we do is we drill a hole .down ——
FROM THE FLOOR: You didn't dig it up. You
drilled a hole through it?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Sir, what we do is we drill a
hole down in the ground, and we didn't dig any ——
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FROM THE.FLOOR: Then say you. dig a hole, and
don't..say you dug it up.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: -We drilled a hole in the
ground 3and we found that there is. creosote underground
here on top of this clay layer that is about 12 feet below
the ground's.surface. " "
Also, we have this drainage ditch here also
where you have creosote, and then it deposited down in
this wetland here in the same manner as over here, and you
also have contamination below the ground surface here.
Then we did find a couple of these pits here
which were used ' for disposal of. creosote over the years.
What we found is because of-the handling of the
creosote, the fact that it wasn't properly contained, that
the aquifer, the water bearing unit that underlies this
site that sits on top of this clay layer is contaminated
with creosote, and that's what we are concerned about
primarily is we want to make sure that people do not, for
instance, drink water that has creosote in it.-
The whole purpose here now is for us to figure
out what we are going.to do with all this contaminated
soil so we can prevent it from getting into the
groundwater and into people's drinking water.
FROM THE FLOOR: We wouldn't want that going
into a cree.k and kill animals and things like that.
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MR. OSTRAUSKAS: That's one purpose. N.ow the
other thing I wanted to get into was that .we have this.
stream running by this site, and again you can see thati -"
the contamination here is relatively close to the creek.
So that what we also want to do is to protect this wetlandihere, and we want to protect the creek from receiving any
creosote from the facility.
Also we have this area in here, this pond
actually just to the west of the facility which also
apparently has some creosote in it, and we are concerned
about that as well.
FROM THE FLOOR: Are you talking about the pond
that's adjacent to 608?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Yes, that's right, 608.
FROM THE FLOOR: .Is that the one that they
found the fish with the cancerous! lesions that the
Wildlife, or the Fish and Game ——
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: That's right. There are fish
that were caught in that pond which apparently had the
types of lesions that would be associated with being
exposed to creosote. Apparently what they were doing is
they were feeding on the bottom of this pond and the
exposure of the gills and the mouth area of the sediment
caused basically cancerous lesions. So that what happens
is that is an example of what creosote can do at high
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concentrations.
FROM THE FLOOR: Sir, when you show that chart
to someone else, please code it., in a bright yellow. I
think that is,a primary contaminant area, too.jMR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, the reason these areas
here are —-and I call these containment sources. I
wanted to make to make a distinction ——
FROM THE FLOOR: That's on site and also
offsite, too. So you would want to color that in as a
problem area.
FROM THE FLOOR: What is that railroad track
running through that piece of paper you've got there?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Pardon me?
What is that railroad track running through
that piece of paper?
MR. OSTRAQSKAS: What, the railroad that goes
through — oh, over here you've talking about. 608 is
right here.
FROM THE FLOOR: So are you talking about some
of our ponds have been contaminated?
MR, OSTRAUSKAS: Well, I'm saying that this
pond right here had these fish in it that apparently had
been exposed to creosote, and therefore that is why they
had these problems.
I don.'t know what you all call this pond. All
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^rysimons 1 I know is that it's the pond that is located just ——. .i
2 FROM THE FLOOR: Is"that the pond adjacent to
3 the traffic —— _. . . . . ;
4 m MR. OSTRAUSKAS: This.is 608 right-here, and
5 here is the site. So it's betwee.n 608 and the site. I
6 don't know what you call the pond, but it's between 608i
7 and —— |
8 FROM THE FLOOR: Is it south of Massappnax
9 Creek?
10 FROM THE FLOOR: No, the West VACO.
11 MR. OSTRAUSKAS: See, here's the creek down
12 here.- This is the creek down here and the pond is up
13 here. The pond is actually not connected to Massaponax
14 Creek at all. It's up here and it drains into Massaponax
15 Creek, but it's not actually connected with Massaponax' - - - - Li16 Creek. It's not on the Massaponax. Ruffins Ponds, forii
17 instance is downstream.
18 So, again, what we are concerned about here at
19 this point is the contaminated soils and sediments.
20 We also are concerned obviously with the
21 contaminated groundwater which we have already pointed out
22 exists below the site.
23 What we will be doing is this summer we will be
24 further looking into what we .need to do to actually clean
25 up the contaminated ground water, but in the meantime what
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we want to. do is to cut off these sources of contamination
that are creating the contaminated ground water in the
first" place. - . . - - . - •
So that want we do in this case then is, the so-
called feasibility study is designed to evaluate what are
our options to deal with this contaminated soil and
sediment.
That's what I would like to talk about right
now, is _what are the options that we have looked at and
talk a little bit about why we prefer particular
alternatives over the others.
First of all, I guess in terms of deciding
which alternative is the most appropriate in this case, we
used several different criteria.
First of all, the most important thing is
whatever we pick, we want to make sure that it is
protective of human health and the environment. We want
to make sure that whatever we do will hopefully help clean
up groundwater and will protect this stream that runs by
the site, Massaponax Creek.
Other considerations are whatever we select,
obviously it has to be implementable. It has to be
something that we can actually do. We can't come up with
something that is impossible.
FROM THE FLOOR: Can I ask a question?
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MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Actually, sir, if you could. ^^k
wait —— . ^^
FROM THE FLOOR: The stream that comes by the
Massaponax goes into the Massaponax. Even if. you do clean
up the site, how long will it be. before we people can be
sure about it? : - -
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, that's a good point.
During these groundwater studies . that we're doing, we are
also going to be further studying all areas that on down
the site just to make sure. Right now we __dorv't think
there is a problem associated with any levels that beyond
the site in this direction.
,do some additional studies, do more sampling all through
here to find out what — as I said, just to confirm that
there isn't a problem.
Right now we have no information that -indicates
that there is any sort of health problem that would be m
associated with, for instance, fishing in this creek or
even hunting in this area or anything of that nature. The
problem ——
FROM THE FLOOR: Well, fishing, there is no
fish in there sir.
FROM THE FLOOR: I used to catch minnows in
that place about 15 years ago, and now there Is no fish at ^
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FROM THE FLOOR: I seined that creek 12 years
ago, and do you .know how many minnows we caught, zero.
It's from 608 to 609.j
MR. OSTRAUSKAS:. . That's what I'm saying, right
now we don't have any data which says that we need to dig
up like the contaminated sediment here.
What I am saying is that we ..are .going to
continue our studies on areas downflow of the site so that
we can evaluate the things that you're concerned about.
• FROM THE FLOOR: I can probably save you a lot
of trouble this way, if I could, please, and I don't mean
to interrupt, but I think the Water Control Board has
already run some tests all down through there, and I don't
think you woulcL have to _do any studies. If you could talk
with them, they could tell you want they found in there in
December. They can tell you want they saw on Christmas
Eve and what they say after Christmas Eve. They can te.ll
you what was in. there. I don't think you have to make any
studies.
I already talked to the Water Control Board
because the Water Control Board tells me that the
Superfund is in charge, and the Superfund tells me, you
just said earlier that you were.not involved in the
operations.
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MR. GERMANN: No, we are involved in anything
that involves that creek. i
FROM THE FLOOR: Well,'what has the Water
Control Board told you about that creek?
MR. GERMANN: Please, we are going to get into
this in just a second. We've got'everybody we need to get
that question answered. I just want to get through theI
project and then we are going to do.that.i
FROM THE FLOOR: Well, I just want-to say it's
going to cost the taxpayers hundreds of thousands ofidollars to do more damn testing
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, that is what I want to
get into now is the cleanup itself, and what are we going
to do in terms of the cleanup. We want to get away from
the testing now,i
Now again we want to clean up these soils and
sediments and what are our options in terms of: cleaning up
the soils and sediments?
Well, obviously we don't want to leave them
there because we have already discovered that, yes, there
are contaminants in the groundwater. So we can't leave
the contaminated soils there.
One alternative that we looked at was basically
digging up this contaminated soil and setting up these
tanks onsite and doing what we call a soil washing process
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where you literally wash _the so.il__w_i.th a solution which
removes the contaminants from the soil and then you place
the soil after you have washed the contaminants off of the
soil bapk in place after essentially you have cleaned the
soil-.
FROM THE FLOOR: Excuse me, sir, but we can
read. All this is i_n the book. Would you please go to
the step that the EPA recommends and the State of Virginia
has tentatively approved and tell us"~about that.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, sir, what I wanted to do
is at least — maybe you are aware of the other
alternatives, but I wanted to describe the other
alternatives for everybody else at the meeting just..so
people know that we considered them.
MR. GERMANN: It's not going to take a long
time, I promise.
time.
FROM THE FLOOR: It's taking a pretty long
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: So that this soil -washing then
is one alternative that we looked at.
Another alternative that we looked at is what
we call soil biodegradation where want you do essentially
is you dig up the contaminated soil again and you put it
in a certain area of the site, and we probably would put
it over here, and you essentially farm the soll in a way
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that bacteria that .naturally occur at this.site can. --
what they do is actually eat the contamination associatedi
with the soil.i
We would create the conditions necessary for
the bacteria to eat the contaminated soil, or "rather the
contamination associated with the soil.
Another alternative that we looked at was
simply containing all this material and buildingiessentially an underground wall at the facility on top of
this clay layer and just putting all the contaminated soil
in it and then covering it.
That we didn't really particularly like too
much because it's not really a permanent solution, that
you'll still have the contamination there and the
underground wall could potentially leak and break.
The other options we look at were just digging
up all the contaminated soil and .taking it to a landfill.
is another thing you could do.
Then the last thing would be to dig up all the
soil and take it to, an incinerator and burn it and that
would destroy all the contamination associated with the
soil.
FROM THE,FLOOR: I live right across the road
from here and we can't even drink our water because it's
contaminated. I'm not saying it's coming from there, but
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there is a good chance it's coming from there.
We have to get spring water from the store .to
drink because we can't drink that is coming out of our
we 11. ,
MR. GERMANN: Which house are you in exactly?
FROM THE FLOOR: Right across the road from
th.is place, right here which is.about a mile and a quarter
from here.
MR. GERMANN: All.right. Have you got a box or
something on there?
question.
FROM THE .FLOOR: Excuse me?
MR. GERMANN: A box number?
FROM THE FLOOR: 4205 Tylerwood Trail.
Go ahead, Darius.
FROM THE FLOOR: Well, he didn't answer my
MR. GERMANN: He doesn't have an answer to your
question right. now_._ ___We are going to have to look into. it.
FROM THE FLOOR: But you've been looking into
it for a while now.
MR. GERMANN: I know, but it's going to be a
while longer. Let me put it this way. We haven't found
in contamination related to that site that it has forced
anybody to stop using their water.
FROM THE FLOOR: I mean we've had two or three
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people come and check our well and they tell me our well
is contaminated.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: I guess what it boils -down to
is we" don't have any information that indicates that
anybody's drinking water has been^affected by the site ini ...a way that they shouldn't drink the water.
IYour groundwater may be contaminated, but just
not from the site. I think that is probably what the case
la. All I can tell you is I think the contamination thatf~ " "— •- " ~-has been caused at this site, that we have found no
evidence that it has contaminated any drinking water welj-s
around the facility in a way that, they shouldn't drink the
water, and I don't think that yours has been contaminated
either. It just seems like it's too. far away.i
The contamination here, we're concerned about a!
relatively small a_rea. If you 're a mile away from the
site ——
FROM THE FLOOR: How far, what is the distance?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: I think a mile is'just too
far.
FROM THE FLOOR: You think, but you dorr't know.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, that's what I'm saying.
We have additional studies that we have to keep doing on
the groundwater, and that's why we're talking about right
now the contamination sources.
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So now, finally, what I want to do is just ...talk
about the preferred alternative.
(New Chart.)
FROM THE FLOOR: Have you gone down to the
underground, water yet?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, that's what I'm talking
about, the groundwater ——
FROM THE FLOOR: Not the well water, but the
underground water, you know, the second layer of water.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: We sampled the groundwater
that is underneath this clay layer. So we've sampled that
water underneath the site and it's clean. We have found
no contamination in the ground that lies underneath this
clay layer at_. the site. ..... .. ._.. ..
FROM THE FLOOR: Are you saying that the
aquifer _unde.rrieath__the site is completely clear of any
contamination?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: No, no. I'm saying that the
aquifer that sits on top of the clay layer is
contaminated.
FROM THE FLOOR: And the aquifer underneath the
clay it's clean?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Underneath the clay layer, the
samples that we have taken from there have come up clean,
that's right.
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FROM THE FLOOR: What do you mean by clean, how
many parts per million?
nothing.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: There is. no contamination.
FROM THE FLOOR: -No arsenic?H
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: None. No arsenic, no.
FROM THE FLOOR: No arsenic and no .lead?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: No lead and no creosote,
FROM THE FLOOR: Could you tell me what the
difference is in the first and second aquifers are.
please?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Yes. There is about 12 feet
under the site of clay layer~andf depending on where you
are on the site, the clay layer gets thicker as you move
up, but what you have is water sitting on top of this clay
layer that is under the site, and that is the first!
aquifer that is closest to the surface.
Then underneath this clay layer is another
aquifer, and that is what I was calling the deeper
aquifer, and it is this deeper aquifer that we have not
found any contamination in and we believe, that is because
this clay layer is preventing the contamination from
getting to this deeper aquifer.
FROM THE FLOOR: Do you have test data
available?
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MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Yes.
MR. GERMANN: He's winding down now ——
FROM THE FLOOR: Can you answer me one question
now. I'm a stup id country boy and I don't have a bi g
college degree/ okay, so IVm dumb. That's what a lot-of
people think. The person that goes in and breaks that
first clay aquifer, will that water from that first
aquifer go Into the second aquifer?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Yes, If you ——
FROM THE FLOOR: Then how are you going to stop
that from contaminating people's wells ——
MR* OSTRAUSKAS: What-I'm saying is if you —
for .instance, when we put wells in this site and when down
to the -.r—
FROM THE FLOOR: If you broke that first
aquifer, you as. the SPA could have contaminated the second
aquifer.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: That's right. If you don't do
it properly ——
FROM THE FLOOR: Your tests could have broke
the second aquifer and contaminated it.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, that's possible. For
instance —-—
FROM THE FLOOR: I'm just asking.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: What I'm saying is that what
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we do is we drill the wells in a -7 :.- that we dp not do
that. I'm not a geologist or anycning —-; _ -_
FROM THE FLOOR: . That's what I-rm asking you.i
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: I--don't really know exactlyihow it's done. All I know is if we had a geologist here
they could tell you, but essentially what" they do is they
just drill the well in a way that.they prevent that from
happening and you're just.going to take my word for it.
FROM THE FLOOR: I -believe you. ' I really do.
(Laughter.)
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Now I just want to talk a
little bit about the alternative that we have selected in
this particular case. This contamination that is
underneath the plant area, what .we would do is. basically
put this cleaning solution down into the ground with wellsi
and then pull that solution back up with another set of
wells, and the contamination would come up to the surface
basically through these what we call recovery wells.
We have wells that we Inject the solution, and
then we have other wells where we recover, the solution.
Then this water that comes to the surface, we separate out
the contaminants from the solution, treat that solution
and take the contaminants aware from the site.
Then we keep doing this over and over until the
contamination is all recovered underneath the plant.
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Now the rest of the site, what we would do is
dig up all the soils and sediments, including the
sediments from the West VACO Pond, or the pond that is
Io.cate4 on the p'roperty "that West VACO leased and put all
these sediments-in this so-called land farm area on the
eastern part of "the site and we would create the
conditions needed for these bacteria to eat the
contaminants that are associated with the soil.
So;.this is the alternative that we are
proposing, and by no means have, we selected this
alternative. This alternative, the main reason for this
meeting is for you to think about it and any kind of
comments that you have regarding the alternative, the EPA
and the State Department of Waste Management have agreed _
on at this point to provide us with those comments.
We like this alternative because it destroys
the creosote that we are concerned about. It's something
that we know is successful, especially with this land farm
area. These bacterial we know actually eat this stuff.
It has been done at other facilities just like this around
the country, and we know that it works.
FROM THE FLOOR: Is this the plan that you used
at the Hollywood, Maryland creosote site?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Yes. The difference there
though — well, the problem is that this type of land farm
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operation, probably the most important thing is
maintenance, that you have to maintain the operation
properly. If you don't continually pay attention to it,
which is what we would do, it's just going to -fall apart
and it's not going to work.
FROM THE FLOOR: How do you maintain it, sir?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, what you do.-is this
operation would take place over a several-year period. Wei
would have people assigned —•- .
FROM THE FLOOR: Let me ask you, who would
maintain it?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: If the EPA does it, we will
maintain it, or if the so-called responsible parties ...
choose to do the cleanup, then they will ——
party be?
FROM THE FLOOR: Who would that responsible
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Former property owners and
things like that. What I'm saying -- hold on a second —
if for whatever reason they can't do it exactly the way we
think it should be done, we'll just do it. That's like
the whole point of Superfund is that if somebody else
won't do it, we'll do it.
FROM THE FLOOR: May I ask one question. If it
works well when you farm"it, how come in a biologically
very rich area which is -in a settlement bottom with much
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moisture, how come naturally it. doesn't break this
creosote down1? That's a very rich biological area.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: What you need, the No. 1 thing
is oxygen, that if you are "below the surface of the ground
and you don.1 1 ..get^ enough. ox_ygen,__ basically it needs air.
It's just like, for -instance, you've got a farm and you
have to till the land to give it air for the crops to
grow, and the .same way here. _ You'.ve got to continually,
you know, literally farm the soil. You have to plow it,
and then what you have to do is_you have to add
nutrients. You -have to add manure or something to provide
food -—
waste in.
FROM THE FLOOR: So you want to bring a sewage
MR.. OSTRAUSKAS: No. What you've got to do is
you've got to provide food for these bugs, you know. What
I'm saying is when the bugs don't have the food -——
FROM THE FLOOR: Farmers today are going to no
till farming.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Pardon me?
FROM THE FLOOR: The agriculture area is going
to no till farming today. They're not doing much tilling.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: I know. I'm saying in this
kind of farming ——
FROM THE FLOOR: Are you saying that your
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people are going _tp start t.illing?_
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Take my word for it, in thisi
case you need to do the tilling and you need to add the
nutrients, you know, if it's manure or whatever, and
you've got to add this stuff to-it. You've just got to - ..inurture these bacteria. |
FROM THE FLOOR: I like the question that thei
woman in front asked, this was the same system that was
recommended and implemented in Hollywood,rwhich is a
subsidiary of this operation here and from your comments I
take it that it didn't work there! for some reason. You _
said,' yes, but we have to do this. So it didn't work
there, right? _ : .
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: No. What I'm saying is thati
operation was not properly maintaine_d.
16 ;; FROM THE FLOOR: So it did not work there.
right?
say is ——
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: It did not work there.
-FROM THE FLOOR: You all fell down on the job,
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: It's wasn't EPA. All I can
(Simultaneous questions and conversations —
not reportable.)
MR. GERMANN: Hold on.
FROM THE FLOOR: Wait 'a minute now. Let's._let
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the guy talk.
MR. GERMANN: Yes, please. . -
FROM THE-'FLOOR: Yes, that's what I say.
FROM THE FLOOR: Did it work in Hollywood?
FROM THE FLOOR: How did this thing happen in
the fdrst place? . . . . . .
FROM THE FLOOR: If you all had done your job,
it wouldn't have happened in the first place.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: All I'm saying is if you
maintain this facility properly that it will work.
FROM THE FLOOR: "Did it work in Hollywood?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: I already told you it didn't
work right, but EPA was not involved in maintaining that
operation.
FROM THE FLOOR: Was Curtis involved in
Hollywood? Yes or no?
Hollywbo'd?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Sir, I don't know.
FROM THE FLOOR: Who" owned the operation in
(Simultaneous questions and conversations —
not reportable.)
FROM THE FLOOR: In Hollywood did it work?
No. Who was involved in Hollywood? Was Curtis involved
in Hollywood?
MR. GERMANN: Excuse me, sir. There are people
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who want to hear what he has to say.
FROM THE FLOOR: It didn't work, did it?
MR. GERMANN: Let him say what he has to say.i
Go ahead.j
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: So what we have here now is we
are in the public comment period and everybody is free to
express their comments regarding the plan that we have
proposed. If you don't like the plan, just say so.i
And also if you would li_ke to submit your
comments in writing to us, you can do that _as .well.
Also, the State is in agreement with the plan,
and I don't whether the Department of Waste Management
might want to say a thing or two about the plan.
MR. GERMANN: All right, the Department of
Waste Management is going, to make a .few comments and then
we're going to take your questions I promise.ii
FROM THE FLOOR: Let's| hear what these other
people have to say, too,
MR. GERMANN: We're going to do that, but we're
just going to have them answer questions rather than make
a presentation.
Go ahead, John.
MR. HORIN: I'm Jon Horin. I'm the Project
Officer for this site from the Department of Waste
Management.
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I have been working with Darius for the last
few" months on reviewing the. different versions of the
RI/FS document, and probably more importantly working with
him on noosing this preferred alternative.
The State agrees with EPA on all of the major
aspects of their preferred alternative, and we are
especially convinced that the land farming is going to be
a very implementable method at this site which will
address all of -the health concerns in a cost effective
manner, and that the problems of implementing this
proposed option will be overcome by closely monitoring the
project as it proceeds through to completion.
The Department is in a good unique position of
working with EPA closely and. providing comments and
working tow_ard_ a position where we can concur with EPA on
these types of projects, but we are also a lot closer to
the constituency here at the State and we are available
completely for all your input.
You are more than welcome to just keep coming
to us until you are satisfied that all your concerns have
been addressed.
FROM THE FLOOR: What do you call close
monitoring, once a year?
MR* GERMANN: Are you asking about the
monitoring of the cleanup?
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FROM THE FLOOR: Yes.
MR. GERMANN: The first thing you have toi
understand about the cleanup is that it is.not necessarily
going £o be implemented by the EPA. When we make a final
decision on what the cleanup is going to consist of, then
we are going to give those that we consider potentiallyi"responsible for the problem the opportunity to ——
FROM THE FLOOR: The opportunity for them to
do their own thing, in other words.i
MR. GERMANN: No, the opportunity to implement
the cleanup. If they do, they will be monitored closely_i
by the EPA, and that means having somebody there onsite
all the time.
If we do it, obviously we will.be doing the
work and monitoring ourselves, but an important
distinction is we are not saying!here tonight that this
work is necessarily going to be done by this agency. That
is a possibility, but it certainly at this point is not a
certainty.
We are required by law to give these
potentially responsible parties the opportunity to
undertake the cleanup and do that here just like we dp at
any other site.
FROM THE FLOOR: How can you call them
responsible parties when they have ruined the land
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already?
MR. GERMANN: Excuse me?
FROM THE -FLOOR: How can you call them
responsible .parties?.. ~j
MR. GERMANN: Because, we think they are
potentially responsible for"that situation. Like I say,
we are not trying tq point fingers at ..anybody in
particular. We are.just trying to find out who are those
individuals that may be connected with the cleanup, and we
want to.work with them to try to get the area cleaned up.
FROM THE FLOOR: What are you going to do to
keep it cleaned up once you get.it cleaned up?
MR. GERMANN: Basically what we are going to
try to do is address the source of contamination first.
The way we_look at it, the beginning of the problem is the
site and the source of contamination, and that is
obviously have a tendency to spread to other areas. So we
want to remove that source before we get on to the other
areas.
The second part of that phase hasn't begun yet,
but the first,.part we believe is about to begin. ,
Yes, sir.
FROM THE FLOOR: Let me ask you a question.
I'm pretty much in favor, and I think it's a good way to
go, to clean up.
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MR. GERMANN: Good.
FROM THE FLOOR: But I want to-know, you all
are going to dig wells and., you're; gpj.ng to flush this
stuff put, am I correct, that itVs going to be. flushed out
and sucked out from this hole.
property.
the plant.
MR. GERMANN: In one particular portion of the
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Just 'that area right around
FROM THE FLOOR: What going to.keep it from
pushing it down?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Pardon me?
FROM THE FLOOR: What'.s going to keep it from
pushing it down and doing more contamination?i
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Remember that clay layer I was
talking about?i
FROM THE FLOOR: Yes, sir.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: We believe, and of course
before we do this on a full scale, we'll test'it out, but
we believe that this clay layer will prevent what we
inject into the ground from going downward. It will get
down to the clay layer, and then rather than keep going
down, we'll just be able to suck it right back up because
it can't get down through this clay layer.
But what we'll -do is before we — we believe.
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right now we believe that it will work, but of course
before we actually do it we'll test it to make sure that
i t does.
FROM THE FLOOR: Can I ask you one thing before
you do that. I'm probably, looking around, one of the
closest residents living to. L. A. Clarke. Before you do
this I would like to have my well tested again by an
independent, and when you finish your tests I would like
to have it tested, and if my well is more contaminated,
are you going to be responsible?
to do -—
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, as I mentioned, we plan
FROM THE FLOOR: Are you going to be
responsible for what you all do? If my well has got one
part per billion phenol in it now, and you can't test more
than one part per billion, so they tell me, okay. Well,
they tell me I have less than one part per billion, but
say you do your cleanup, I want my well tested by an
independent, not by you and not by the State, but by an
independent firm.
MR. GERMANN: That's a problem.
FROM THE FLOOR: It's no problem. It can be
done and I've got the money to do it. Don't tell me it's
a problem. It's no problem. Okay.
MR. GERMANN: All right.
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FROM THE FLOOR: Then when you finish doing
your cleanup and my well has got 10 parts.per billion, who
is going to be responsible? If that water you try toi
clean Qut and those chemicals go down into the aquifer and
contaminates my well, who is going to be responsible?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well,' that's what all..thei
monitoring that Ray was referring' to is all about. What!
we will have is groundwater monitoring right on the site,
let alone ——ii
FROM THE FLOOR: I'm not worried about the
site, I'm worried about my house, my well and my kids.
man.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: I understand that ——
MR. GERMANN: Let me just say this. We are
trying to do everything ——i
FROM THE FLOOR: What I'm trying to say is weiiget this runaround all the time. I'm not trying to give
you a hard time. You're trying to do your job and that's
right. I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but we
want some answers. We want some definite, concrete
answers and not and's or but's. I want some definite
concrete answers, that's all.
MR. GERMANN: I know, and in a lot of cases
it's just not possible for us to.give you guarantees, and
I'm afraid that's just the way it is. We're doing the
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best that we know how, and one of the ——
FROM THE FLOOR: I believe you.
MR. GERMANN: One of the things we're doing is
implementing this cleanup-and trying to make sure that
your well does stay clean.
I or nobody else "from EPA or any of these ;~
agencies here present tonight I don't think can give you a
guarantee tha_t's. going to say this is going to be the
final solution"and you don't have to worry any more.
FROM THE FLOOR: If you start cleaning up and
I've got 15 parts per billion, and I've got a letter from
your outfit th.at says I've got less than 1 part per
billion. I've talked to five different companies that
says you ca.n.'t test less than one part per billion.
MR. GERMANN: I think they were saying less
than one part per billion saying that they didn't see it.
FROM THE FLOOR: Well, what happens if I've got
a letter than says I've got less than one part per billion
of phenols in my well_, and you do your cleanup, you flush
this soil, and it's tested again and I've got 15 parts per
billion. Who is going to be responsible for that?
MR. GERMANN: I don't know.
Also, you have to keep in ——
FROM THE FLOOR: Well, let me ask you, before
you go into this -phase where you start going off the deep
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end and doing things that you don't know who is going to ^^^
be responsible for, think about the people in the area . .
that might be affected by. it. ;
MR. GERMANN: That's what we're trying to do,
and you have to keep in mind that we don't have any solid
connection between the phenol that has been found aroundi
the site, you know, upgrading, it, or downgrading i_t and all
over, connected directly to that site. In fact, we don't -
believe that it's necessarily the source., of the phenol.
The thing that you have to keep in mind is that -
we're going to do-.everything we can to clean up that site.
but there may be other sources involved that we're not
addressing, and that's a fact. ; .L _ =-..._- - R
FROM THE FLOOR: I think you've got another
site that should tested.
MR. GERMANN: Well, we can look into that.
FROM THE FLOOR: And I can tell you where it's
at.
MR. GERMANN: Then we will.
FROM THE FLOOR: Would you say the question and
answer period started?
(Laughter. )
Why don't we take a three to five-minute break
and let's cool our emotions a little bit.. and come back.
Do you have a problem with that? ^^^
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MR. GERMANN: No, I don't.
Does anybody want to take, .a three to five-
minute break?
(Simultaneous questions and conversations --
not repprtable.)
FROM THE FLOOR: I've waited two and a half .
years to get some answers, and I don't want to wait five
more minutes. I want some answers now.
MR. GERMANN: Okay, Mrs. Collier, your next.
FROM THE FLOOR: Will someone recommend that we
take a three to five-minute break.
.MR. GERMANN: I'm sorry. The majority rules.
FROM THE FLOOR: You've been in charge of
everything else. Tell them.
MR. GERMANN: I'm sorry, I'm not going to tell
you to take a break. If you want to leave we will still
be here when you get back. How's that.
(At this point in the public hearing members of
the. audience got up and headed for the doors for a
recess.)
We will wait a second until the room clears and
then we'll continue.
(A voluntarily recess was taken.)
MR. PAYNE: I think we've had our three
minutes, and if we can kind of gather together again.
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'. 59
I would like to remind all of you of something
that is mentioned on the fact sheet, and that is that _the
entire administrative record, the remedial investigation
and the feasibility study on this site are in the County
Administrator's Office at the Courthouse. It's a record
about this think — (Indicating) '— -and if you care to
know all the names and all the results and all the
information of where the test wells were dug, it's all in
there. So you are all free and Welcome to come to the
County Administrator's Office to look at that record.
Also, there is a public comment-period, a
period for written comments. The addresses are on the
fact slieet and they will receive .written comments on the
plan up until or through March 22nd.
MR. GERMANN: I'm grateful for" that break
anyway. I hoped that worked out that way for everybody.
We didn't by any means mean to cut you off, and
I know we did, but it wasn't intentional to cut you off.
during the presentation. I want; to have some kind of
cohesiveness to it so people can try to understand what we
are trying to do there,
With that we'll entertain any questions you
have. Try to limit your quest.ions first to the plan, and
then we will go on to other matters.
Anybody?
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Ye s, sir.
FROM THE FLOOR: I've got a lot of things on my
mind, and i:.don't know where to begin but. No. 1, about
two wefks I-^went over to the Spotsylvania Courthouse when
I got the notification from Mr. Payne that your.study was
on display and we could go over and study it.
And low and behold I. get over there and I find
seven three-inch volumes that I am supposed to look at
before I come here tonight to be prepared to speak
intelligently about this subject.
Now there is no way that I could read it, that
my supervisor could read it and Mr. Payne could read it
and digest the technical matter that is in that in 13 days
before we come over here, and I don't think that's playing
quite.fair. ... .. ..... .._...___ . __ . .... . _..—_
MR. GERMANN: One of the things we are trying
to do is summarize — well, most of information, not all
of it, but most of the information that is part of the
decision-making process in that huge administrative record
is summarized in this pamphlet here. I mean obviously all
the answers aren't there, but it's summarizes, it hits the
high points and summarizes for you what it is we are going
to do, and that is what we have done here tonight.
Basically we have given you — I mean we
obviously haven't gone into every sampling point, but we
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have given you a summation of what is in that record here
tonight, and that is really what we are here to try to get
comments on.
If there is something that you wanted more*
iinformation on about the plan, then now is the time to .ask
it. If there is something we didn't explain properly,i[then this is the time for us to —•- . .
FROM THE FLOOR: That is very difficult 'to doi
when you haven't had the time to read it. See, we're
working people. We have to work for a living, and if we
don't get off work until 4:30 in the afternoon, and the
courthouse shuts off shortly thereafter. But even if you
took two weeks of leave time, there is no way that you
could go in and digest that to ask you the__intelligent
questions that you would like to have.
MR. GERMANN: Well, let me put it this way, I
understand and that is a perfectly legitimate point.
FROM THE FLOOR: Now we've got that, out of the
way and let's move on to the next thing. We've agreed to
that one long enough.
Listening to your presentation a few moments
ago, you said that the deep aquifer was clean, that there
was no problems there, it was just the upper stratum.
I've got your executive summary right here, and let me
read to you. It says "Total PNA concentrations in the
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deep aquifer do not ..exceed-risk based cleanup levels."
Now that tells me when I. read -it that there is some
contamination in that deep aquifer.
MR. GERMANN: Then that is an error in oura
terminology. That is what clean means to us. It does not
mean that there is absolutely no compounds in the deep
aquifer.
FROM THE FLOOR: The next thing I have a
problem with in listening to what was said is when I went
to school I thought,-! understood physics pretty well, but
you're telling me all this contamination is confined in
the aquifer underneath the site.
Now I always thought that if I poured a
dissimilar liquid into another one it was going to
disperse, that it was going to move, and you're telling me
all this contamination is confined underneath the site.
Is-~that what you're telling me?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: What we are saying is we
installed a number of monitoring wells on the site that go
down into the_ deep aquifer and we did not find any
contamination in the deep aquifer. .
FROM THE FLOOR: We're off the subject of the
deep aquifer. I shifted and I'm sorry if you didn't
follow that. We acknowledge that your paper here says
there was some.
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But you said earlier that the contamination
2 that is in the aquifer is confined under the site, and my
understanding of physics is that it is not going to be
stationary. It's going to intersperse and the aquifer isi
under a moving stream and that .that material is offsite.
Sir, I think that is misstatement.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Firstly, you will recall that
we to^ntioned that we are going to; be continuing our
studies on the groundwater, and a lot of the questions
you're bring up now we're still trying to answert
ourselves. We need to actually install more wells.
FROM THE FLOOR: I understand that.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: So that I would like to be.
able to answer your questions, and what we want to do is
we will in fact be installing more wells to get a better
handle on the groundwater situation at the site.
But what we want to do is at least try and
start to clean up the site. We want to get moving, and
that's the purpose of this. We want to start -cleaning up
the site and in the meantime we will further investigate
th© groundwater situation.
The main thing is to start the cleanup. We
don't want to keep delaying things forever and ever and
ever. We want to start the cleanup, and rather than notistart the cleanup and continuing groundwater
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investigations as an excuse not to start to cleaning up
the site, we want to start the cleanup and do the
groun_dwater investigations at the same time.
So I just want to emphasize that we share your
concern about the groundwater and we are going to continue
our work on protecting the groundwater as well as cleaning
up these sources, but the main thing is to start the clean
up process. That is the main thing we want to do, just
start cleaning up the site.
FROM THE FLOOR: I want to ask you a question.
You say that the place is contaminated, right?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: The soils are contaminated.
FROM THE FLOOR: What about the workers that
work there, what about them breathing that stuff all day?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: That is one of the reasons we
want to clean up the site.
FROM THE FLOOR: I want to know, is it
hazardous to their health now or what?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, if the contaminated
soils remain there ——
FROM THE FLOOR: I mean you say the
contaminated soil is there now, right?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Yes.
FROM THE FLOOR: In other words, it's
contaminated the mean that's working there, right?
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MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, there are certainly even
within the State of Virginia, and again in the beginning
of the program what I tried to describe is the purpose ofi
our program. I know you would like us to address a lot of.» \ • -different problems here, but we can't, for instance,
address ——
FROM THE FLOOR: Are you trying to tell me thatithere isn't contamination in there for the people that are
working there?
MR. GERMANN: I think what he's saying is there
may be, and that is one of the reasons ——
FROM THE FLOOR: There may be! :
FROM THE FLOOR: When you start moving all that
dirt it's going to be worse,
FROM THE FLOOR: I've !been working there for 10
years, and I've been sick for eight years. Now is there
contamination for the people who work there?
MR. GERMANN: We don't know, sir. What I'm
saying is we don't know for sure. EPA does not have MDs
on staff. We clean up sites. We can't do health
assessments. That's just the way it is. However, say you
have a doctor who has some reason to believe that you're
conditions are associated with your work at the site. We
can get him ——
FROM THE FLOOR: I'm asking is it contaminated
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or is it- not?
MR. GERMANNi I don' ^..understand the question.
FROM THE FLOOR: I want you to give me a
straight answer. Is it .contaminated or is it not?j —
MR. GERMANN: What.do you mean when you say
contaminated? - . . . . . _ .
FROM THE FLOOR: The fumes we breathe, is it
contaminated?
MR. GERMANN: Possibly.
FROM THE FLOOR: Possibly?
MR. GERMANN: Yes.
Yes, sir.
FROM THE FLOOR: Could we do one thing. We've
got,four people sitting at the table, and the third one,
Mr. Payne, I^'know he's not responsible for anything ——
(Laughter.)
——but the three of you, EPA is responsible for
what, cleanup, and you're responsible for what, and what's
this other guy responsible for because we're giving the
poor guy with the tie and the_suit.a hard time, and I
think he's just stated that he's only responsible for what
has happened after the fact, not what is happening now,
and I think we should address our questions to the person
that is responsible for the "future of the cleanup and not
.him who is responsible for what has already happened.
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You know, what are your realms of
responsibility as three public servants talking to us
tonight? Give us your realms of responsibility and then I
think we can address our questions to each individual to-
get an answer instead of hitting the guy with the coat and
tie all the time.i :
(Laughter.)
He is only responsible for after the fact.
MR. GERMANN: Okay. Well, I'll give it a
shot. Myself and Darius both work for the Environmental
Protection Agency. _
FROM THE FLOOR: Yourself and who?
MR. GERMANN: Darius Ostrauskas, the little guyiwith the suit and tie. '.
(Laughter.)
FROM THE FLOOR: I asked a question before, is
it contaminated for us to breathe while we work there?
MR. GERMANN: It could be. Like I said —_see
what I'm trying _to explain ——
FROM THE FLOOR: Why don't you all give us a
straight answer.
MR. GERMANN: I don't have one for you.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: See, what I was getting at
earlier is there are other agencies involved in regulating
what is going out there right now. __ What we are trying to
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do is just tell you about — we can't do everything. Just
like you have a job. that you do, we-have our job. Our job
is to deal with the contamination in the soil that has
happened over the years and clean it up.
If you're talk.ing about what is going on at the
plant right now in terms of workers .and in terms of how
they are handling their waste water ——
FROM THE FLOOR: I see all you guys running
around down there. You got white suits on, masks on,
gloves on, rubber boots up to your ass on —
(Laughter.) .
I want to ask you a question. Is it
contaminated?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well obviously. Those people
that are wearing those suits are .digging up, in many cases
digging up contaminated material and you have to be
protected.
FROM THE FLOOR: When you go and dig up all
this dirt now, is that plant going.to be closed down when
you're going to move all J:hi.s dirt pr_is the plant still-
going to be open while these people got to work?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: That's a question that is
really not in our hands, the Environmental Protection
Agency's.hands whether this facility continues operating.
As you're all aware, there is going to be a
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69-
hearing before the State Water Control Board within I
guess the next month or so which is going, to discuss
whether this facility will keep operating.
Again, that's not something that we're.involved
with. We would like to be able to answer questions, but
we're not the people to answer that question.
FROM THE FLOOR: What will happen to the water
on the land farm area? You said.you're going to draw that
water off, right, as it comes up, right?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Yes, right.
FROM THE FLOOR: All right, that filthy water_,
where are you going to put that?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, we are going to- treat
that water and get the contamination out of the water and
then take it offsite.
to?
FROM THE FLOOR: Where are you going to take it
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, you can do several
things with it. You can either treat it or you have to
dispose of it or you incinerate it. There are not too
many options. I mean if we have to, we can take it all
the way across the country if we had to. that's a
possibility, but more likely there are other things we
would like to do like, for instance, to treat the water
with these bugs, the bacteria I was talking about that can
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70
actually eat this contamination as like one example of
what we would do with the stuff that comes up out of the
ground.
MR. GERMANN: Let's get this gentleman over
here, the one that proposed the break.
FROM THE FLOOR: Go ahead.
MR. GERMANN: All right, we're going to go on
to .somebody else.
Yes, ma'am, right here.
FROM THE FLOOR: First of all, I would like to
know in every short, simple terms why did you start this
study with those little plants out there that you're
talking about.in the wetlands that they are complaining
about their conditions? Why did you start looking at this
place?
And second of all, what are you going to do
with these little things that are going to eat this stuff?
MR. GERMANN: Okay. No. 1, we got involved
because there was information that indicated that there
was contamination on the soil at the site and possibly in
the groundwater, and by contamination basically we mean
creosote.
So there was some sampling data that was done
way back, you know, in the early 80fs or so that indicate
there may be a problem there, and through a long process
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! 71
of prioritizing the site this eventually became one of'rthe
sites that the EPA came to view as fairly serious and was
placed on this national priorities list. ~
So that is how we got to the point we are.
I'm going to let Darius answer _the question
about the bugs, if you don't.mind.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: The bugs, again these bugsi
actually eat creosote. So the idea is to create the
conditions necessary for the bugs to be happy and be
working as well as they can. Right now those bugs are
actually out there even right now, but what you need to doj
is create the conditions that they need to work really
well.
As I mentioned before, the way you do that is
through some of these farming techniques where you
actually expose air to the bugs. The bugs need air to
operate. So you actually plow up the soil", the
contaminated material, get the bugs exposed to the air,i
and also you add nutrients, things like manure or some
fertilizer or something so that again it makes the bugs
work better. So that is the theory behind the bacteria or
the bugs that we're talking about.
it, right?
FROM THE FLOOR: You said the bug comes to eat
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Yes.
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FROM THE FLOOR: That's like a rat that comes
to Decon. They become .immune to it. They are going to
eat it and it don't do no effect to them.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: -I mean nobody is going to be
eating these bugs.
FROM THE FLOOR: I mean you said the bugs are
going to be eating that ._creosote, right?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Yes.
FROM THE FLOOR: And they become immune to it
so it don't hurt them and so the bugs keep on eating it.
So what?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, what they do is they
destroy the creosote. In .the process of eating it, they
destroy it. . ._ .
FROM THE FLOOR: How?
FROM THE FLOOR: We're not dumb enough not to
know that bacteria break down compounds ——
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, he's asking, and I'm
just saying ——
FROM THE FLOOR: So they just keep on eating
it? So you have a creosote eating bug.
(Laughter.)
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: I know it sounds crazy, but
that 's ——
FROM THE FLOOR: It is crazy.
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'73
(Laughter.
crazv.
MR. GERMANN: Hey, as long as it works it's not
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: It works, believe me. We have
studies that show it works.
(Simultaneous questions and conversations —
not reportable.)i
MR. GERMANN: Okay, this woman over here near
the door with the white sweater has a question.
FROM THE FLOOR: It's not a question. I was
just thinking you might want to clarify for him on
groundwater. I think a lot of people have a misconception
as to what groundwater is. I. think he thinks it's a
stream, when it in fact groundwater moves very slowly and
could address why there is contamination only on this
site.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Yes. Groundwater is water
that you can't see that's on the ground. For instance, if
you have a well that your well is going down into ground
water and the water that comes up out of your well is
groundwater and it's underground in this site, it varies
from about maybe 15 feet underground to a couple of feet
underground where it starts.
So if you dug a hole in the ground, you would
start finding water maybe around five feet from the ground
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74
surface, for instance, and that is groundwater.
MR. GERMANN: It's water that flows through the
dirt that is already there. It's not a cavern or anything
like that in the soil.^
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Yes.
MR. GERMANN: .And say you dig a hole in a place
that has a shallow groundwater table, you dig a hole and a
little while later the hole will fill up.
FROM THE FLOOR: But it does come from rain,
and when that rain falls on the earth it travels over the
contaminants and one of the laws we have in our county is
that we grout all wells, and if we didn't grout it then .we
would get the contaminants in there.
However, the water does still go deeper in the
ground and then it comes in through the cavities of the
well terne. So rain water is the same thing as ground
water, and if it flows over L. A. Clarke ties or its
contaminated soil and it turns down to a stream, that's
groundwater. I guess what happens is the sun-draws it up
out of the ocean and then it brings it over here in little
clouds and drops it on us.
(Laughter.)
And if it drops it on us, we would get
contaminants from the contaminated soil, and we might get
some bugs, too.
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jrysimons 1 (Laughter.)
2 MR. GERMANN: .Yes, sir.
3 FROM THE FLOOR: He didn't ask his question.i
4 , MR. GERMANN: "I don't'think he' had-one. I
5 think he was just trying straighten me out.
6 j FROM THE FLOOR: I like your map. Your map has
7 a very good top view, but you don't have a side view. I
8 think the ground level is approximately 97 feet in that
9 area. The RF&P railroad dug out all the clay, sand and
10 gravel in that area when they built the embankment on the
11 other side of 609.
12 When you start flushing those wells, if you
13 don't have any way to contain that, your water is going to
14 j go to the sides.
15 i MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Exactly.i i
16 , FROM THE FLOOR: - What ,are you going to flushi '
17 those wells with, what chemicals.
18 MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, first of all, the
19 containment that you're referring to is in fact very
20 important. What we do is before going out there and
21 starting just putting in 15 wells all at the same time and
22 just start pumping them in and out, you start out with
23 maybe one well in one location and one in another location
24 and do a very small-scale test just to see if it really
25 works. We believe that it will work, but you have to
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start one step at a time.
As I said, first, you just sink two wells in,
try it out and if it doesn't work for whatever reason, and
I mean^right now we think it will work because of the
conditions there that we think it's right for this kind of
system. But if it _doesn't work, we will be the first ones
to acknowledge that and we'll try something else. But the
main thing is we will go one step at a time and make sure
it's done right.
FROM THE FLOOR: What are you flushing with?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Again, that's something we __.
don't know right now. We have to do some studies to
figure out what the best solution is to do the flushing
with.
If this particular plan is approved, and if you
all agree with it and the State continues to agree with it
and the EPA also -continues to agree with it, that one of
the first steps that will be taken is to actually start
doing some studies to figure out what the exact solution
will be. Right now, though, we don't know what that
solution is. We have to do the tests first.
FROM THE FLOOR: Now let's go from here to
Hollywood, Maryland^ I talked to you_back in January and
we talked about the Hollywood, Maryland site for a while
and I asked you about dioxins. You told me that when you
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cleaned the pond up there that you found dioxins on the
bottom of that lagoon. .__ ._ _._... ;
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: That's right, in Hollywood,
Maryland, but not here though.
FROM THE FLOOR: "I agree, and I have no problem
with that. But they are both wood treating plants, wood
preserving plants. Why would you find dioxins up there
and not down here when we were used by the same person?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: The reason is that the plant
in Hollywood, Maryland used both creosote and another-
compound called pentachlorophenol. Pentachlorophenol
contains dioxin. This facility here has never used
pentachlorophenol. We collected .like well over 200
samples at this site everywhere, at "all sorts of different
locations and never found pentachlorophenol. We never
found dioxin in the samples we took for dioxin. There
simply is no dioxin out there from our sample results, and
there is no pentachlorophenol either.
FROM THE FLOOR: But you did the same tests up
there that you did here and you didn't find it up there
until you drained the lagoon*, right? __
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: I don't know the exact tests '
that were done. All I'm saying is that ---._
FROM THE FLOOR: I'm asking you that.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Sir, we have taken over 200
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samples at .this site and we have never found
pentachlorophenol.
FROM THE FLOOR: But you did the same type of
tests, up there and you didn't find it until you drained
the lagoon; is that not right? Just say yes or no.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: I don't know. Sir, I wasn't
involved in the Hollywood, Maryland site and I don't know
the real details.
FROM THE FLOOR: I-thought you were the Project
Manager up there.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: No.
there?
tonight.
FROM THE FLOOR: Who is the Project Manager up
MR. GERMANN: I'm afraid he is not here
FROM THE FLOOR: Excuse me?
MR. GERMANN: He is not here tonight, and I
can't recall the name.
There was a question in the back. Yes, ma'am.
FROM THE FLOOR: I don't know very much about
this, but I have three concerns, and one of them is the
water, the water that we drink every day. I want to know
how does-this affect the nearby wells that are close to
this plant?
Then, secondly, I want to know about the odor.
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irysimons 1 Are we going to deal with the real bad odor with this
2 testing and so forth? \
3 And, thirdly, I want to^know have you checkedi
4 the nearby wells because I want to know whether my well^ ii5 has been contaminated or not.
ii6 I also want to know what effect does creosote
7 have on humans.
8 I also want to know whether this plant, L. A.t '
9 ; Clarke, whether they have been charged with certa.in
10 violations, and the next question I have is who is goingI
11 to pay for all this? Are the taxpayers going to be paying
12 for this or is the Government going to pay for it? Where
13 is the money going to come from.
14 MR. GERMANN: There are a bunch of questions in
15 • there and I'm not sure I remember them all. f'11—start by
16 : saying that we have sampled the residential wells in thei
17 immediate vicinity of the site and so far we haven't been
18 able to make a connection between the site and any levels
19 in wells that were above EPA drinking water criteria.
20 So in the opinion of the EPA we have not seen a
21 detrimental effect to the residents from drinking water
22 surrounding that site due to the L. A. Clarke site.
23 Now when we finish this study, like I said
24 before," and we haven't yet figured out who is .going to pay
25 for all this. The SPA is there no put up the money if
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necessary. However, we prefer not to do that if we can
find potentially responsible parties who are interested in
funding that work.
Now there is an incentive for them to becomej
interested because if we spend our money up front ——
FROM THE FLOOR: You're talking about the U.S.
Government?
MR. GERMANN: The U.S. Government spends the
money up front, and we are mandated by law after we spend
that money to try to seek out those individuals that we
believe to be responsible for the problem and to try to
recoup the money.
So we are going to try to work with those that
we believe J o— be potentially responsible so that they can
fund that cleanup action. The term that we use is
potentially responsible parties. We don't point to -
somebody and s.ay you, you're responsible and you, you're
responsible. Under the law as long as somebody is
potentially responsible for that problem, they can be
brought into this cleanup process.
FROM THE FLOOR: So how long has L. A. Clarke
operated this site?
MR. GERMANN: The operating itself has been
going on for decades.
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^rysimons 1 FROM THE FLOOR: But the Curtis.people bought
2 that operation, and you can tell,me that they didn't havei
3 that checked out. If you go put!and buy a house or ai
4 piece of property, don't you have it thoroughly
5 investigated before you buy that ;place? They bought it so
6 they are responsible for it. That's all I'm saying.
7 FROM THE FLOOR: Ray, I heard that_-RF&P
8 railroad is going to be. responsible for it in conjunction
9 with L. A. Clarke.
10 MR. GERMANN: Pardon me?
11 FROM THE FLOOR: That RF&P railroad was going
12 to be a responsible party to the cleanup. RF&P railroad
13 once owned L. A. Clarke, and L. A. Clarke treats all the
14 ties for RF&P railroad. Am I correct?
15 RF&P railroad, 22 percent of that is owned by
16 the State of Virginia. So who the hell a"re we fighting?
17 MR. GERMANN: I believe that the railroad is a
18 potentially responsible party.
19 FROM THE FLOOR: Ray, you made a statement to
20 this lady about some well water that has been tested and
21 nothing is wrong with it. I've got a letter from your
22 office, the United States Environmental Protection Agency4
23 of June 27th, 1986.
24 (The gentleman brings the letter forward as he
25 is speaking and places the letter before Mr. Germann.)
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• 82
I wish you would read very slowly and very
plainly that paragraph.
MR. GERMANN: I know exactly what you're
talking about.
FROM THE FLOOR: Read it.
FROM THE FLOOR: Read it out loud.
FROM THE FLOOR: I want you to read it.
MR. GERMANN: I-'m not going to read this
paragraph.
VOICES. FROM THE FLOOR: Read it. Go on.
MR. GERMANN: Okay. What it says is
"Specifically the concentration of cadmium reported in
your well was 12 _to 15 micrograms per liter, and the
actual concentration may actually be 20 to 60 percent
higher."
FROM THE FLOOR: Go ahead.
MR. GERMANN: "While the MCL — which means
maximum contaminant level — of 10 micrograms per liter
contains a considerable margin of safety, it is
conceivable that those who consume such waters over an
extended period of time could experience some degree of
adverse health effects."
FROM THE FLOOR: That's your letter you all
wrote to us. So don't get up here and tell these people
that there is nothing out there.
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MR. GERMANN: I didn't say there was nothing
out there, sir. If you would have listened to-what I said
carefully you would have heard me say we haven't had any
reason to believe that any contamination related to thata ;
site is impacting people's wells. We did .not say there
was no contamination in the County of Spotsylvania.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Let me discuss the cadmium
just a little bit and address your concern. Out of the
hundreds of samples that we took at this site, we did not
detect elevated levels of cadmium. The cadmium is not a
contaminant that is associated with the L. A. Clarke site.
with?
FROM THE FLOOR: What could it be associated
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: First of all, cadmium occurs
naturally in rock and in the environment, and it could_
just be dissolving from sand or rock.,underground and it
gets into the water that way. It's natural possibly, or
it might be coming from the pipes in yoirr system, there
might be cadmium in the metal in your pipes, and we were
concerned about this.
Even though we have nothing at all that would
indicate that this cadmium that-was found in these wells
comes from this site, we still brought it to the attention
of the County Health Department. We notified the County
Health Department and discussed the issue with them. We
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wrote individual -letters to all those who had these
slightly elevated cadmium levels,, detected in their wells,
and because it is .not- connected to the site, we cannot do
anything' about..it in terms of this particular project, butathe County Health Department has been referred the
situation. Since it's not connected to the site, it's
difficult for us to do something .about it.
What I suggest is .if you are concerned about
those levels, which from what I understand are not
necessarily a problem, then I would contact your County
Health Department and ask their recommendation as to what
you might be.able _tp do .about it. There is nothing we can
do about it in this situation because it doesn't have
anything to do with L. A. Clarke.
FROM THE FLOOR: Let me ask you one other
question. With all the contamination in the area, how far-
say west of L. A. Clarke have you checked for
contamination? From 608 over. Have you gone as far as
Route 1?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, we have checked, let's
see, in terms of scale, it's off this map here. We have
checked up in here and what we have is there are other
parts of the Superfund program that can investigate other
sites.
Because .we are finding some contamination, for
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instance, we found phenols in General Products' well, the
company General Products. So we figured well, maybe we
should check out General Products and maybe they are
somehow causing a problem.A
So, for instance, the State of Virginia
Department of Waste Management within the last" couple of
months I believe has done an investigation of general
products to see whether they might be a problem.
Certainly if you think there might be other
contaminant sources of concern in the area, we would be
only too happy to check them out for you in cooperation
with the Virginia Department of Waste Management.
Just be aware that it's not as if — just
because in this particular case here, this meeting, that
we are not, for instance, concerned — it's not that we
are not concerned about contamination, possible
contamination in other areas, but that type of problem, if
it is indeed a problem, can be addressed through other
programs within EPA and within the State.
FROM THE FLOOR: Could I go off scale with one
more thing while it's still on my mind. Earlier you said,
and I don't mean to be bouncing back and forth, and I
would appreciate your view of this, you said that the
first water aquifer was about 12 feet? iiiMR. OSTRAUSKAS: Yes, at least under the plant
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it's about 12 feet below the ground.
FROM THE FLOOR: I had a report that was done
by EPA about two years ago that says is was around 25
feet.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, what happens is if you
go up here, for instance, it goes down to 25 feet. See,
as you go._ down closer and closer in this direction, it
comes closer and closer to the surface.
FROM THE FLOOR: Once you get down by the creek
what would you think?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, once you get down to the
creek, the groundwater almost comes right to the surface
here.
FROM THE FLOOR: I'm just on the other side of
the creek and my well is, like I say, 25 feet deep from
the bottom to the top. You were saying 12 feet, and when
I talked with Ray and I got a report, and I've got it at
the house and I can go get it if you would like to see it,
but you've probably already seen it, that said that the
first water aquifer was about 25 feet and the second one
went from 40 to 45 feet.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Like, it I said, it depends -
FROM THE FLOOR: I-just didn't understand where
you got your 12._feet from and that was kind of puzzling my
mind a little bit.
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• 37
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: It just depends on where you
are. If you're up here it's 2S. an;d here it's 12 and here
it might be 6. It just depends on the location.
FROM THE FLOOR: May I say something. I really
don't understand why you did not want to read the
paragraph in the letter that was written to me.
MR. GERMANN: Why? I mean I know what was in
the paragraph.
FROM THE FLOOR: Okay. But from I understand,
there were six wells found in the vicinity, and I think
people should know what this can do to you over.a period
of time. I think I spoke with you on the phone. I'm
Linda Self, and I've spoken to this gentleman sometime
back and I expressed my concern about this.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, as I said, we were
concerned as well, and that is why we notified the County
Health Department, and that is we notified yourself and
the other residents.
FROM THE FLOOR: It may not be affecting us
now, but what it is going to do to our children?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: I agree with you. Again, we
notified the County Health Department and they are really
the people that can help you out.
FROM THE FLOOR: Excuse me, Linda. I called
the County Health Department five years ago, and then when
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he talked to me I had to go to the Water Control Board and
EPA. I disagree with you on that. I called four or five
year ago on that.
FROM THE FLOOR: Don't you think people shoulda
be aware of what can happen?
FROM THE FLOOR: The Health Department doesn't
give a __damn unless you're involved in it.
FROM THE FLOOR: I would like to,clarify one
thing. It's not the County Health Department. It's the
State Health Department that has an office in Spotsylvania
County. You all keep saying County Health Department. We
have, no jurisdictional authority. It's out of our
jurisdiction. It's the State of Virginia Health
Department controlled by the State Legislature and by the
Governor of the State of Virginia. He rents an office
from the Spotsylvania. They rent and pay rent.
FROM THE FLOOR: I can tell you people one
thing, all of you, the State, the Federal EPA, the Air
Pollution Control Board, if you all had turned this over
to Spotsylvania County, they would have had the damn thing
cleared up five years ago. They wouldn't have farted
around that you all have.
(Laughter.)
(Applause.)
FROM THE FLOOR: Let me tell you all
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something. I think EPA has done an excellent job tonight
snowing us because they brought us here to ..comment on
alternative four whether we like it or don't like it.
FROM THE FLOOR: And that's the only one
they've shown us.
FROM THE FLOOR: That's right. And if we don't
come out against alternative four, they're going to push
it down our throat because alternative four, if you williiremember when I asked did it work in Hollywood, the guy
wouldn't answer me.
But I'll tell you what. If we don't say we
don't want want alternative four, we're going to get it.
Alternative four does not work, it will not work and he
won't say it.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Actually it's alternative that
we have selected.
(Simultaneous questions and conversations —
not reportable,)
MR. GERMANN: I just want to say one thing. We
wouldn't have bothered to come out and set up the meeting
if we weren't going to listen to what you had to say.
FROM THE FLOOR: Why didn't you show us a
diagram of the other two?
MR. GERMANN: Well, I mean, at that point we
were ——
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FROM THE FLOOR: In others words, you've made
up your mind and you're going to do what you want to,
right?
MR. GERMANN: No, that's not true.
Is there something else you want us to go into
more detail on?
FROM THE FLOOR: Ray, one more thing and then
I'm going to shut up. I've gotten more response out of
the people at the Water Control Board than anybody out of
the whole four or five years, because they did listen to
us and they did come down and they worked with us and they
didn't mind talking to us. Any time I called anybody,
they had time to talk to me and explain it to me. Those
people there were fantastic, and I appreciate that.
FROM THE FLOOR: I appreciate your saying that.
FROM THE FLOOR: I didn't mean to throw you off
with what I said before, because these people have been a
big help to us.
MR. GERMANN: Yes, ma'am.
FROM THE FLOOR: Would you support a Federal
grant to run a waterline to the community?
MR. GERMANN: All I can say is that at this
particular point in-time that is not something that we see
as a necessary alternative.
Like I. say, just specifically related to the
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contamination at the site, we think that we can clean that
up and take it out of that area before it becomes_a
problem to residents drinking the groundwater.
Like I say, I'm not saying there is noa
contamination in this country. What I'm saying is weI
haven't seen any evidence of contamination from the siteiiiwhich is having a detrimental effect on the residents'
drinking the groundwater.i
FROM THE FLOOR: How about offsite?
MR. GERMANN: Offsite. That's what I mean, all
the residential wells that are offsite.
Yes, sir.
MR. WONDREE:' I would like to speak against the
plan if I may.
MR. GERMANN: No problem.
MR. WONDREE: My first name is Lou, L-o-u, and
my last name is Wondree, W-o-n-d-r-e-e. I" live at the
corner of the Route 609 and Route 17 bypass.
Did you ever get the feeling that an elephant
is a mouse designed to government specifications?
(Laughter.)
You can surely see it here.
In more ways than one, I'm probably the largest
landowner, or one of the largest landowners in the area.
I have a letter that I would like to deliver to.
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the Environmental Protection Agency, and I would like to ...
read this letter to you tonight.
I'll be ..very brief.
Primarily what I want to do is propose anj
alternate plan that will cos_t .a whole lot less than what .
they have spent so far.
I understand from their own recommendations
they are planning to_spend $23 million on a hunch it seems
like.
Dear Sir: I have had the opportunity to review
the Executive Summary of the Proposed Plan pertaining to
the cleanup alternative of the L.A. Clarke site and I
would like to offer an opinion, proposal and some
additional--information.
In review of the summary, it is obvious that no
one has considered-the socio-economic impact of. the area.
Being one of the largest land owners in the immediate
area, I feel qualified to address this issue. It is also
obvious that there is a more cost effective way of dealing
with this problem that would provide a residual value
after the problem is solved.
I would like to propose an alternatives to the
plan that they have proposed to us tonight.
Step 1. Form an advisory panel to review and
give input and to help develop the alternatives — not
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some people from out of the area who have no knowledge of ^^^
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what our problems to force an answer down our throat. the ^^^
panel should consist of our county representatives,
adjacent landowners, EPA reps., state reps., and an L.A.
Clarke representative .
Step 2. The source of pollution (i.e., L.A.
Clarke) should be shut down and eliminated forthwith.
(Applause. )
Thank you.
Step 3. A policy of containment at minimum of
the current levels of pollution should be instituted
immediately. No further studies and no $10 million more
in studies. Contain it now. ^^^
(Applause. )
FROM THE FLOOR: I agree with__that.
MR. WONDREE: By the EPA's own study, the way
to do it is to dig a 13 foot deep perimeter ditch around
the property, line this ditch with a leachate barrier made
of plastic, which we use in landfills quite often. It has
already been tested and it works. Then on top of "this put --
a 10 foot cap of clay or other impervious material.
Step 4. A program to monitor all existing
wells and water resources in the area for a minimum period
of five years.
I myself have over 20 wells and water sites on ^jt
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my property. All of my property is within a half a mile
of this site. Not one of my wells or my water resources
have been checked or tested by the EPA during this
exhaustive study.
Step 5. Then after the cap is put on it,
construct a recreational facility on the site to provide
soccer fields, ball fields or whatever. This has been
done before and it was done in Virginia Beach, a placed
called ~~Mount "Trashmore. It's a beautiful park. It's a
big mountain, but it's got a cap on it and it's a big
park.
Step 6. Provide county water and sewer to all
property owners within a three-quarter mile radius of the
plant.
Don't tell me it can't be done, because was
done right in Sylvania Heights byr a HUD grant 10 years
ago
By utilizing this concept much from the funding
could come from areas such as HUD grants, recreational
monies, et cetera.
If we were to follow their proposal of land
farming, soil flushing, soil biodegradation and magic
creatures that eat the creosote, after the project is
completed the source of pollution will still exist, and
then we have not addressed the needs of the area and we
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still have a piece of land that is a liability rather than
an asset.
My plan offers an alternative. Look at the end
of the project. Adjacent land values will.be greater, thes
county will have a recreational facility in an area where
it is badly needed and the source of the problem will bei
eliminated, and I assure you the cost will be far less
than $23 million.i
I am under the opinion that the authors of the
proposal that you have seen tonight are simply looking at
solving a problem on the short-term basis. It would be a
tragic waste, of money to spend $23 million and have little
or no residual value for the money spent. By following my
"program, the cost would be substantially less and the
resulting impact would be beneficial.
I want to finish by saying that : it's a tragedy
that with the vast land-holdings I have in this area and
with over 20 wells and water sources, to my knowledge, not
one has been tested or not one of the tenants who occupy
my land have been approached.
I urge you in the strongest way not to spend
$23 million without considering the feelings and the
thoughts of the landowners in the area. In most cases
their investments are represented here.
For anybody that is interested, I have a
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synopsis .of the six-step plan that will be up here for
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your perusal. ;
Thank you.i
MR. GERMANN: Thank you.
(Applause. )
Yes, Ms. Collier, finally.
MS. COLLIER: I'm very skeptical of your
presentation tonight. There is a lot of I believe 's, I
think 's, I guess, hopefully, probably, it's possible. I'm
very skeptical as to what you're saying is going to
reality.
What type of time period are you talking
about. You promised us, all of us here that we were going
to_ have a follow-up meeting in six months from our past
mee-ting, which was o.ver two years ago. Are you talking
about one year, two years or five years for our cleanup,
and then you don't even know that the steps that you're
going to take.are going to clean it up.
I want to personally ask. representatives from
the Air Pollution Control Board what have you done in the
last year regarding resolving the. odor from L. A. Clarke?
FROM THE FLOOR: We're still getting the odor.
MS. COLLIER: We still have odors.
(Simultaneous questions and conversations —
not reportable.)
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FROM THE FLOOR: Come on, let's get an answer. ^^
, CLAYTON: For those of you that don't know, ^Br
my name is Greg Clayton. I am the Air Pollution Control
Specialist for nine counties in Virginia, one of which isa
Spotsylvania.
As a result of a number of complaints over the
last three years or so, we have worked with L. A. Clarice'
and they have made changes in their process that we feelii
has reduced, not eliminated, but reduced significantly the
emissions that were causing the odor problem.
I am not about to deny that there was an odor
problem. I agreed with the people that said there was.
VOICES FROM THE FLOOR: There is. ^^
FROM THE FLOOR: And it started back this week. ^^
MR. CLAYTON: The first complain that I have
received ——
FROM THE FLOOR: Do you have business cards
that you can hand out to us so we can call you?
(Laughter. )
Give us all one.
MR. CLAYTON: I'll give you my phone number. I
don't have enough cards to hand out.
But in the last year I have received —
approximately in the last year I've only received one
complaint, and that came on February the 29th at 9:30 p.m. ^j^wACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC
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from Ms. Collier.
Again, they_have instituted some major changes
in their process, and some of those changes have only
occurred within the last — well, it was supposed to have^
been completed .by January 1st, and it was completed by
February 1st. _. . .
I'm not going to try and^stand here and tell
you that there is no odor. I think my feeling is that as
long as .there,_is the creosote operation there there is
going to be an odor.
The Air Pollution Control Board does not say
that there can be no emissions into the atmosphere. They
say that there can be no emissions above some certain
level, and it depends on the type of pollutant you're
talking about as to what those levels are.
The Air Pollution Control Board did do air
quality monitoring in the vicinity around L. A. Clarke.
Spotsylvania County hired a consultant that also did air
quality monitoring in the .vicinity.
Our monitoring, and according to the report
that I saw from the consultant that the county hired,
there were no levels of any pollutant that were
significant levels.
Now I'm not saying you didn't smell it.
FROM THE FLOOR: And I.'m saying it burnt my
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skin.
law.
99
FROM THE FLOOR: How about an offensive odor
MR. CLAYTON: There is a regulation.on the
books that says that no person shall cause, suffer, allow
or permit odors that are objectionable to persons of
normal sensitivity.
law.
FROM THE FLOOR: There is an offensive odor
MR. CLAYTON: Yes. There is an odor regulation
of the Air Pollution Control Board.
you?
FROM THE FLOOR: You can't test for odors, can
MR. CLAYTON: No, you can't. You can test for
chemicals, but you can't test for odors, and we did test.
for the chemicals, for some of the chemicals that-we know
are constituents of creosote and we did not find those in
the ambient air.
FROM THE FLOOR: Where did you test the air?
MR. CLAYTON: Where?
FROM THE FLOOR: Yes. . _____ _ _._
MR. CLAYTON: We tested it at various
residences around the plant. We tested the Greenfield
subdivision, we tested there. We tested ©specially at one
site located on 609, We have tested down at
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Fredericksburg Rod and G.un Club a couple of times. We had
the monitors mounted on a trailer so that we could move
them from site to site, and it was, to- be very honest, a
little bit of a guessing game in that we had to try ands
predict based on weather forecasts and things of that
nature, where the winds were going to carry any emissions
that night.
Some nights, you know, I was lucky. I got it
set up and the next morning T compared where it was with
the wind charts that we had and it was located directly
downwind. Other nights I wasn't quite so lucky.
And during that sampling period, and the
sampling period that we did, I don't recall exact dates,
but it was late summer or early fall of 19-86. We did not
test last year, but '86 was when we got most of our
complaints on it.
During those sampling periods we tested at
various -times during the day, and most frequently at
night. That's when most of our complaint were coming.
and during those sampling periods I also went out and
drove around the area trying to smell it.
I know a lot of,people are saying that the
people you're seeing up here talking to you tonight don't
really care because they don't leave here. That's not
true.' I do live here and I do care, and where I lived at
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the time I smelled L. A. Clarke.
101
during those sampling periods I would go
out and try and figure out, you know, whether to me there
was an odor present, and again most of the nights _I could*find an odor. I had no problem.
That's why we tried to come up with some
alternatives — well, our agency doesn't typically suggest
alternatives to the source. We tell them you've got a
problem and do something about it, and that is what we did
in L. &. Clarke.
FROM THE FLOOR: You don't fine if. .there are
any violations of air quality? Do you give fines on it?
MR. CLAYTON: Yes.
FROM THE FLOOR: Has L. A. Clarke ever been
issued a fine or a citation?
MR, CLAYTON: They have never been penalized,
or fined if you will by the Air Pollution Control Board.
They have been issued notices of violation.
FROM THE FLOOR: But those violation notices
did not resolve in them taking any corrective actions?
MR. CLAYTON: Yes, they have made changes in
their process.
FROM THE FLOOR: But it has not eliminated the
odor problem.
MR. CLAYTON: It has not eliminated. It has
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significantly reduceid, and I'm not going to tell you that
there is any process change that will eliminate that short
of 'shutting the plant down because that is probably the
only way that you will el_imina_te 100 percent of theirj . . .emissions into the air.
Again, the Air Pollution Control Board
regulations for the most part do not — our regulations.
don't say that there.can be absolutely no emissions. It
says there can be no_ emissions above, some certain' level.
Again, it. depends on the type of pollutant as to what that
le ve 1 is.
And the question was raised earlier are the
workers at risk. They may well be as, as they said. Our
regulations are not designed to protect workers. That is
another, agency within both the Federal and State
Governments.
We have regulations that are designed to
protect the health and safety and welfare of the general
public. We are trying to protect ambient air,, which is
the air that the general public might reasonably be
exposed to.
FROM THE FLOOR: I have a question for you.
When that odor is strong, is it a health hazard? Now I'm
talking not.recently, but back somewhat. I work shift
work and I come home at 1 o'clock in the morning. I get
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..rysimons 1 out of my truck and you can feel your skin crawl Like andi !" ' '
2 the pungent odor from the creosote will be real strong. I
3 live down in Greenfield. Now I want to know is it healthy
4 for you to breathe that stuff? I^ve got two small-a '
5 children, and I don't want them hurt by this stuff.
6 MR. CLAYTON: I know you've heard this a lot
7 tonight, but I can't give you a definitive, answer, and I
8 don't mean to be a smart^aleck and I'm sure that none of
9 the gentlemen up here mean to but, unfortunately, we are
10 not dealing with a topic that there are clear-cut answers
11 too on everything.
12 All I can tell you concerning when those odors
13 were strong and it burnt your skin and it irritated your
14 eyes and your nose and it kept you from sleeping at night,
15 I have no intention of arguing those points with you,
16 because I tend to agree that that'probably did occur.
17 The only thing I can tell'you is that from all
18 of the studies that I've seen, our sampling technique and
19 our analysis technique is not so precise, that you can
20 detect very, very minute levels.
21 We feel that the detection levels for the
22 chemicals we were looking at were well below the point
23 where it would have some significant impact on your
24 health, not irritation maybe, and not the nuisance part of
25 it, but some serious impact on your health.
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We did not find detectable levels of those
chemicals. Somebody said something about a snow job. I'm
not — honestly I am not trying to do that. I am trying
to -give you as specific an answer as I can but,3
unfortunately, there is no, at least I don't have a
specific answer. I'm not a toxicologist.
FROM THE FLOOR: In the springtime of the year,
you know, you would like to be able to open your windows
and not run the air conditioner.
MR. CLAYTON: I ag~ree".
the re.
FROM THE FLOOR: And you can't do that down
MR. CLAYTON: On certain nights, you're right.
I have no problem with that.
FROM THE FLOOR: Are they still boiling any of
their creosote?
MR. CLAYTON: They are not. The last time I
was there, and that was on February the 12th, they are
not.
FROM THE FLOOR: See how often you visit.
MR. CLAYTON: Well, wait. You know, I cover
nine counties. Am I supposed to spend 24 hours a day at
L. A. Clarke?
FROM THE FLOOR: You could spend one day a
month.
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MR. CLAYTON: February the 12th was less than a
month ago.
FROM THE FLOOR: I mean one hour one month.
MR. CLAYTON: I'm sorry, I shouldn't have^
reacted in that manner, but I—have got a large area and
I've got a lot of sources.
I was there on February the 12th, and at that
time the — well, and even before that time -- they arei
not boiling water to dispose .of it.
FROM THE FLOOR: They can do it at night.
MR. CLAYTON: They have several steps in their
process and this is a result of a consent agreement that
they have with us and a consent agreement they have with
the county. They are processing the water and trying to
separate the creosote that comes out in that water so that
they can reuse the creosote, and the water is being
disposed of in some other manner. It's being used in
their boiler, £or instance, but they are not boiling water
off to dispose of it like they were in 1986 when the odors
w@re a whole lot worse than they appear to be right now.
Yes, ma'am.
FROM THE FLOOR: I want to know is there
anyone here from the Health Department?
MR. GERMANN: I think that is the one agency we
don't have.
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MR. CLAYTON: I don't think anybody from the
State Health Department is here.
Ye s, sir.
FROM THE FLOOR: You said that they are using3 -
the water in their boilers. In their process I imagine
they have safeties and things like this. Why couldn't
creating the same type of environment as blowing it off,
maybe not ..in.the. same degree, but there is still, you
know, there is still creosote in their feedwater.
MR. CLAYTON: Well, the way, and I'm not the
one, you know, I don't claim to be an expert on water
either because I'm not. But the process waste waters that
they were putting into the dehydrators, and at one time as
a result of some legal action on behalf of the Water Board
they saw fit to take their water out of their lagoon and
put it into their pressure treatment vessels and boil it
off there, and that is when things really hit the fan.
That is when you all really got socked with the
odor because they were boiling off tremendous amounts of
water in a very short period of time, and they
contaminants, the creosote and some of the constituents of
creosote that boil .off at a relatively low temperature
were being emitted into the air at some considerably
higher levels- than they were when they were just using the
dehydrator.
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Again, now they have done away with the
dehydrator, they have done away with some other things,
.they have installed a new vacuum system so that they are
able to collect more of these volatile constituents ofacreosote that evaporate very easily. They are condensed
and they are ejected into that air from the vacuum system
which is injected into the boiler along with the fuel-oil
that they are burning. So that those are burned and
things of that nature.
So there have been some significant changes,
and it's my opinion and the opinion of I think the Air
Pollution Control Board that those changes have resulted
in an improvement. - Again, they have not eliminated the
creosote odor a hundred percent.
FROM THE FLOOR: Is there technology available
now to eliminate the odors completely?
MR. CLAYTON: To the best of my knowledge, no,
there is not. As long as that plant is there and they are
using the creosoting process where they draw a vacuum and
all the steps involved in the creosoting of railroad ties
and other wood products, I don't think there will ever be
a creosote process like that that has no odor whatsoever
associated with it.
FROM THE FLOOR: How about if you put a
building over the complete plant and purified the air
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before it came out of it?
MR. CLAYTON: I "guess"if you had the right kind
of purification system or.incineration or something,
maybe. 3 I think-that the cost of that would be prohibitive
if the. company was to keep operating. Even for a brand
new source that is going in our regulations in that case
say the source must use the best available control
technology. And we are not talking about a brand new
source. We're talking about a source that is essentially
50 years old. _ „ ...
But even best available control technology,
that terminology .in_relation to air pollution control
addresses such things as economics. If the cost of that
control equipment or that control technology is so great
for the benefits in terms of reduction of pollutants, a
new source might not even be required to do something like
that.
Again, we have no evidence that the residents
of the area are being exposed to levels that are going to
have an adverse health, you know, impact on your health.
Again, I'm not here to-address whether it's a
nuisance or not. That's something totally different, but
our evidence suggests that the residents of Spotsylvania
County and the City of Fredericksburg and the rest of the
area around here are not being e*xposed to levels that are
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going to have an adverse impact on your health and
welfare.
FROM THE FLOOR: On a short-term basis, but you
don't £now about the long term.
MR. CLAYTON: Our regulations, you know, we try
and hopefully our regulations are.designed to protect your
health and safety, not just on the short term, but on the
long term as well.
The Federal Government and the State Air
Pollution Control Board both, right now we are trying to
get more information, not just from L. A. Clarke, but from
all sources on pollutants that have not been specifically
addressed in the past, because obviously we are becoming
more and more aware that there are a lot of other things
that we haven't really regulated .in the past that maybe
need to be regulated.
So I can't tell you that there is with 100
percent certainty that there is no impact or there will" be
no impact, but again based on the evidence that we have
today and the knowledge that we have today there is no
impact on your health. But I can't give you a guarantee.
Unfortunately, that just doesn't work that way. I wish I
could, but I can't. -
I'm sorry to take so long.
Mk. GERMANN: No problem.
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FROM THE FLOOR:. The land farm technology of
plowing and replowing this contaminated soil, how is that
going to contribute to the .odor? You may not be able to
field this, but that is going to cause some odor, isn't
it?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: During any kind of cleanup
activities at the site we will be doing air monitoring,
and we know what States' rules and regulations are
regarding odors. We have a copy of all those rules, and
we will follow those" rules and we'll have all the air
monitoring set up, and when.we are exceeding the levels -
that are allowed, we will -just shut down until we correct
the problem and continue once the problem has been
corrected.
MR. CLAYTON: There may be some odor associated
because you are taking soil that is contaminated with
creosote and you're going to be stirring it up.
My feeling is, and this is not necessarily a
technical, you know, a real technical explanation, but my
feeling is that it's not going to contribute significantly
to the odor because right now if .you go to the site there
is 'Creosote on the ground and you're stirring it up, and
you would hopefully be eliminating that creosote. You are
certainly not adding to it by this, you know, if this soil
biodegradation and soil farming thing is adopted.
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FROM THE FLOOR: What are the names of the
bugs? Do you just call them bugs, or bacteria. Do you
know the technical name?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Specific names I'm not aware
of, but they do vary from site to site. For instance, at
L. A. Clarke there is a certain particular group of
bacteria that are present there. At another site youi
might have different bacteria in the same family.
FROM THE FLOOR: So you're going to nurture the
existing bacteria basically. You not going to bring in a
foreign culture that's going to be a unique health
problem, but you're going to simply nurture the existing
bacteria.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: We believe that the bacteria
that are out already, if we nurture them and provide them
the right conditions that they can do the job.
FROM THE FLOOR: I think the bottom line from
talking to the citizens in the entire area and here
tonight, the people want to know, you know, you say you've
got to run more tests and more studies, they want you to
be able to tell them some estimate of when you're going to
finish your studies and your tests. We have the Water
Control Board here now and they play a certain part in
that issue also.
We want to know when are you _a_ll going to set a
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deadline that you will give us some facts and figures on
what you're going to do. Xt has been several years now
and people feel :like they are being pushed around and
shoved 'around and they are worried about their children
and their future, and you just can't keep on and on.
They don't want a Love Canal. They don't want
the issue to be carried on and on and on. They want you
to._give them some kind of reasonable time that you're
going to .give ..them.an., answejr q£. vjhat the problem is and
what methods are you going to use immediately to clear up
the problem, and the Water Control Board can't walk away-
with clean hands.
MR. GERMANN: We're talking about a multi-year
project. I mean there is no doubt.about that. The
problem is that when you are dealing with this kind of
technology, which we really think is.going to work here
and we think it's the best, or at this point it looks to.
us to be the best alternative, and even if we were to
choose something else, for example, we don't ——
it.
up there
FROM THE FLOOR: I thought we had a choice in
MR. GERMANN: You do. That's what I'm saying.
FROM THE FLOOR: You ain't got but one choice
MR. GERMANN: Well, I thought we explained what
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the alternatives were. Like I say, if you have more in-
depth questions, we will answer them.
But, anyway, a lot of this depends quite
honestly how things go during the design o.f" the cleanup.
We don't know exactly in these particular — see, even
though this process has been done elsewhere, it has never
been ~^ne under these specific conditions. So what we
have to do is find out how long this type of cleanup takes
under these specific conditions.
I think we are talking about on the order of,
just this phase of the cleanup, we are talking in the
general vicinity of five years to: complete it with the
land farming and everything. It could be _lpnger and it
could be less, but we're talking in that general time
frame.
FROM THE FLOOR: All right, that's the cleanup
is five years. Now give_me the dates you think that you.
can have all your studies in for this specific area that
you addressed tonight, you know, for just that specific
area. Give us a date when you are going to have your
studies finished.
MR. GERMANN: We are supposed to start the
second phase of this cleanup process sometime in the
summer and we are — can you guys, is it a year or year
and a half?
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MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Essentially we will begin the
design of how we are going to do this this summer and
hopefully if it goes well, we are talking about maybe a
year arid then, like Ray said, it could take up to five
years to do. it. It has taken at least several years in
other cases. It's not a fast process, you know, because
the bacteria don't work quickly, but we think that this
method will destroy the contamination and that it's the
best alternative we believe in this case.
MR. GERMANN: What it boils down to is we are
talking about the general vicinity of five years to
implement this particular part of the cleanup. We are
talking about a two-step cleanup process.
The second phase, we plan to begin this
summer. That will take approximately a year, in that
general vicinity. At that time we will have another
situation just like we are in right now, and at that time
we should be able to give you with some kind of confidence
our estimate of the end point of the cleanup process.
So today we are just not prepared to do it. We
can tell you how long this part of the cleanup is going to
take, but we haven't done all the studies necessary to
tell you"how long the rest of it is going to take, and
that doesn't1 answer your question.
FROM THE FLOOR: Do you have the funds for this
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cleanup?
funds.
MR. GERMANN: Yesr we 'do.
FROM THE FLOOR:. You do have the funds?
MR. GERMANN: If necessary, we do have the
FROM THE FLOOR: It is, necessary.
(Simultaneous questions and conversations —
not reportable.)
MR. GERMANN: Excuse me. What I mean is --
like I-said before, the project is going to be funded ——
(Disgruntlement expressed from the audience.)-
This is very important so I wish you would
listen. The project is going to be funded. It's just a
question of who it is going to funded by. If it is
necessary for the Federal Government to put up that money,
we will. However, we prefer not !to use the taxpayers'
money to do that. We prefer to bring in potentially
responsible parties to help us with that. If that can't
be worked out, the project will be funded through the
Government.
FROM THE FLOOR: Have RF&P railroad and L. A.
Clarke agreed to pay anything on this cleanup?
MR. GERMANN: I don't believe that there is
anything in writing to that effect.
FROM THE FLOOR: How much money have you spent
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to date on the studies and developing the program?.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: I would say it's somewhere in
the million dollar range, rsome"thing like that.
FROM THE FLOOR: And we're looking at another
five years. .With my program you can do it immediately.
MR. GERMANN: Well, "like I said, I don't doubt
that for a minute. It's just a question of what we and
everybody here think is the best idea and not just
necessarily the cheapest and the quickest.
FROM THE FLOOR: Let's go back to Hollywood,
Maryland, and I didn't get arty clear-cut answers on a
compatible operation with the same company owning it and
EPA being involved. Has it worked in Hollywood or has it
not worked in Hollywood? ...
MR. GERMANN: The reason you haven't gotten an
answer is because none of us up here worked at Hollywood,
Maryland
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: We just don't know. The
project person ——
FROM THE FLOOR: Don't you think you ought to:
try find out with the same problem?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, we will look into it,
sir. We just can't answer. We don't know happened.
(Simultaneous questions and conversations —
not reportable.)
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*rysimons 1 FROM THE FLOOR: Does it work or doesn't it
2 work ?
3 MR. GERMANN: We think it's going to work here.
4 * (Simultaneous questions and conversations —
5 not reportable.)
6 FROM THE FLOOR: It doesn't work in Hollywood,
7 does it? It didn't work in Hollywood, did it?i
8 MR. GERMANN: I don't know.
9 (Simultaneous questions and conversations —
10 not reportable.)
11 MR. GERMANN: In the back.
12 * FROM THE FLOOR: Is the plant still running?
13 MR. GERMANN: The Hollywood plant, I don't
14 know.
15 - FROM THE FLOOR: It's an abandoned site, isn't
16 it? • ' -
17 MR. GERMANN: I don't know. I'm just not
18 involved in that project.
19 Can I ge=t this gentleman in the back.
20 FROM THE FLOOR: I had a question on your other
21 alternatives, except for No. 1 which is no action. What
22 are the estimated time parameters for this kind of job
23 from the time it would start to the time when the risk
24 would be diminished?
25 MR. GERMANN:" Do you mean how long would each
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alternative take?
FROM THE FLOOR: Right.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, generally I guess with
the soil washing alternative we estimated three years from
the time you actually start the cleanup ——
FROM THE FLOOR: That's No. 3?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: That's No. 2. No. 3, which is
the one that EPA and the State are recommending and that
we are proposing to you tonight would take five years we
estimate, and then No. 4, just the land farming, the soil
biodegradation alone we estimate would take three.years, -
and the containment and offsite disposal options and
offsite incineration I think those would be in the two
year range
FROM THE FLOOR: Do you have an estimate as to
how much volume, you're looking at?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: We've estimated, our
preliminary estimate is about 100,000 cubic yards.
FROM THE FLOOR: How often does the EPA, the
Water Control Board and Air Pollution, how often do you
all meet together to talk about the Superfund site? For
the last two years how often have all of you met to
discuss your findings and all? ...
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, our primary
communication is with the Department of Waste Management
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and I.Vve been talking with John probably every other day
for the last half year about the site.
FROM THE FLOOR: Have you talked with the Water
Control Board?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, maybe John can speak for
how the State operates, but our primary contact with the
Department of Waste Management. They are our sister
agency, so to .speak, and just to coordinate things I work
primarily with._John, and then John works with the other
State agencies. That is just generally how we like to
work together. .
meetings?
FROM THE FLOOR: Did you ever have any
MR. HORIN: We have had a meeting where these
agencies were provided a draft 'copy of the RI/FS and they
provided comments, and those comments were incorporated
into the final version of the RI/FS.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: For instance, when I mentioned
with the air monitoring, that was specifically a request
of the Air Control Board that we have such and such
regulations that you would have to adhere to in doing the
cleanup action, for instance. That's an example.
FROM THE FLOOR: What procedures have you met
in notifying the Board of Supervisors about this?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: We keep the county posted in
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terms of sending them a copy of the draft RFS, the final
RFS, just generally keeping Kirn Payne, the County
Administrator updated on what we are doing. That is
really Jthe way we have been working with the county.
FROM THE FLOOR: Would,you agree with that.
Kirn?
MR. PAYNE: Yes, sir. That's right.
FROM THE FLOOR: That ain't what the papers
said, and that ain't what the Board of Supervisors been
saying
FROM THE FLOOR: I have two questions I would-
like to ask and you might be able to answer — one of them
I know you can answer but one of them I don't think you
can.
The first one you probably can answer maybe.
How many times has L. A. Clarke been sited for
violations? Can you tell me that?
MR, GERMANN: I don't know.
FROM THE FLOOR: You can't answer, right, but I
have one you can answer. How many times have they been
fined for violations?
MR. GERMANN: I don't know.
FROM THE FLOOR: Zero.
FROM THE FLOOR: Why not?
FROM THE FLOOR: Yes, why not? That's one
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answer I would like to know. Why haven't they been f.ined.
MR. PAYNE: We have some representatives from
State Water Control Board here, and it might be a good
opportunity for them to tell you what has been going on
there.
tonight.
FROM THE FLOOR: Yes. They ain't said nothing
MR. GERMANN: The Water Control Board has been
working very hard on this project in a kind of different
way than we have been, but they do have a lot to say and
we are going to let them do it right now.
MR. ROLAND: My name is John Roland, and I'm
the Director of Enforcement on the Water Board.
I don't want to want to mix some of our public
participation in the process with this, but we are having
a Board meeting in March where we have an action pending
against L. A. Clarke. It is a public meeting and ——
FROM THE FLOOR: Speak up. We can't hear you.
MR. ROLAND: It's a fact-finding type meeting.
It's a public hearing essentially to go over some problems
we have been having with the company.
FROM THE FLOOR: Were you part of this pumping
of the West VACO Pond? Several weeks ago or maybe a month
they pumped off so many gallons of water out of that pond
to keep it from overflowing. Would you mind telling us
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where that water went to? Do you have a document saying
that it went out of State or it went somewhere else in
Spotsylvania County or did you pump it on the ground and
who was there to monitor the pumping?
MR. ROLAND: Okay. Let me back up a little
bit. I think this gentleman ——
FROM THE FLOOR: I would like to hear the
answer to the question,
MR. ROLAND: I will I promise.
This gentleman here called in with some
complaints I believe about conditions in the creek several
months ago. We sent some people out and looked into the
area and did a full investigation.
One of the things we found was this waste
lagoon which — (Mr. Roland is indicating on the chart.)
FROM THE FLOOR: With the lines through it.
MR. ROLAND: Right here I guess.
FROM THE FLOOR: No, up.
MR. ROLAND: Up here.
It had a free board of two inches, which is not
much. We have a court order that is still.in effect that
we had filed, what ——
FROM THE FLOOR: In '83.
MR, ROLAND: —— in '83 that required a 17-inch
free board. When we found out about that we sent the
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Curtis's a letter giving them 24-hours to reduce .the free
board, which they did, and I.think it's down now to 20
inches roughly.
FROM THE.FLOOR: How often do you check it?
FROM THE FLOOR: Where did they pump it to?
MR. ROLAND: They pumped it over into their
process tanks, and that's where it is.
FROM THE FLOOR: If it still in the process
tanks?
MR. CUNNINGHAM: No.
FROM THE FLOOR: Where is it?
MR. ROLAND: This is Greg Cunningham. He is
one of our engineers. He has been up there a number of
times and he can probably answer all those questions.
MR. CUNNINGHAM: We initially went out and as a
result of that we did inspections and saw there was a
problem with the lagoon. .We came back and told them they
had to lower the level. Basically we just told them that
they had to dispose of it- in an approved legal method.
What they chose to do initially was to take
their water and just hold it at their facility in a number
of tanks, including their processing cylinder, and they
also had a number of -tanks that they used for biological
treatment. Initially that's what they did.
FROM THE FLOOR: Are we talking about the same
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^rysimons 1 pond that you're going to_pump down 20-some inches and put
2 in a tank on L. A. Clarke's site? Which size tank? Just
3 give me a guess, guesstimate? How big would that tank be?
4 J MR. CUNNINGHAM: I can tell you. We actually
5 calculated what he needed, the volume he needed to lower
6 five versus how much volume he had on site, and he had
7 enough volume on site to hold what was required.
8 FROM THE FLOOR: How many gallons?
9 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I can tell you in a second.
10 FROM THE FLOOR: How much did he dump on the
11 ground?
12 MR. ROLAND: To our knowledge, he did not dump
13 on the ground.
14 MR. CLAYTON: What he did with that water ——
15 FROM THE FLOOR: How many gallons did he pump
16 out?
17 MR. CUNNINGHAM: 150,000 gallons got removed
18 from the tank and it got put into: cylinders ——
19 FROM THE FLOOR: Wait a minute, we're talking
20 about the pond, removed from the pond.
21 MR. CUNNINGHAM: From the pond and it got put
22 into tanks and cylinders, existing tanks and cylinders on
23 site.
24 FROM THE FLOOR: He don't have that kind of
25 capacity on site.
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MR. CUNNINGHAM: Yes, he does, and we
documented ——
FROM THE FLOOR: How many tanks does he have
have and what is the capacity?
MR. CUNNINGHAM: I don't have it. in front of me
now.
FROM THE FLOOR: Well, he is in violation of a
court order, and how come he ——
(Simultaneous questions and conversations —•
not reportable.)
MR. CUNNINGHAM: He has a small cylinder of .
20,000 gallons, a holding tank of 17,000 gallons, he has
two biological tanks of _44,000 gallons, he has two basins
of 20,000 gallons ——
FROM THE FLOOR: What kind of basins?
MR. CUNNINGHAM: ——,for the sludge drawing ——
FROM THE FLOOR: That's not a tank. It's a
swing basin.
MR. CUNNINGHAM: There are two open air
concrete structures probably, oh, four feet high and
probably — okay 2 by 21 by 3 by 7 and a half feet high.
FROM THE FLOOR: You would have 71,000 if
everything was empty.
FROM THE FLOOR: Have they been inspected for
their ability to contain this water? Do they have cracks
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irysimons 1 in the ——
2 MR. CUNNINGHAM: What they did with the water
3 after they held it was basically use it as boiler feed and
4 ran their boilers continuously for approximately I think a
5 three-week period, and that's now he got rid of the water.
6 (Simultaneous questions and conversations —
7 not reportable.)
8 (The reporter indicated to Mr. Germann the
9 difficulty of hearing due to .the distance of the speaker
10 across the room and the multiple questions_and
11 conversations simultaneous taking place while Mr.
12 Cunningham was attempting to answer questions.)
13 MR. GERMANN: Fred, could you just come up
14 front with us here. We are trying to keep at .least a
15 decent record and we're having trouble doing it.
16 MR, CUNNINGHAM: I'm sorry.
17 - FROM THE FLOOR: Since the Water Control Board
18 is on the floor how, it would be appear to be that if you
19 had a court order and you had violated the court order,
20 and I understand what happens if you violate a court order
21 in this county, you go to a certain place.
22 (Simultaneous questions and conversations —
23 not reportable.)
24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: From a technical basis in
25 terms of what he did with the water, it was feasible. I'm
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not saying what he did was right or we approved of what he
did.
tanks.
FROM THE-FLOOR: Is-it still there in those
MR. CUNNINGHAM: No.
FROM THE FLOOR: Where is it? He done boiled
it off in the air, right?
approval?
MR. CUNNINGHAM: He boiled it off.
FROM THE FLOOR: Did that meet with your
MR. CUNNINGHAM: No, and that's why ——
(Simultaneous questions and conversations —
not reportable.)
That's why ——
FROM THE FLOOR: You don't want to take action
against him.
him ——
MR. CUNNINGHAM: That's why we sent a letter to
FROM THE FLOOR: You're scared of him.
MR. CUNNINGHAM: —— we sent a letter to ——
(Simultaneous questions and conversations —
not reportable.)
FROM THE FLOOR: You're scared of him because
the Senators and all of _thera have stock in the railroad
and on telephone poles and ——
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(Simultaneous questions and conversations —
not reportable.)
MR. ROLAND: Give me five seconds, and I think
I can satisfy you. We are taking two of the strongest
actions, probably the two strongest actions we can take as
a Water Control Board.i
(Simultaneous questions and conversations —
not reportable.)
Just a minute. We referred the violation of
the court order to the Attorney General's Office. That is
a serious matter and something is. going to happen there..
FROM THE FLOOR: When did you refer it to the
Attorney General?
problem.
March?
MR. ROLAND: Virtually right after we found the
FROM THE FLOOR: Was it in February, was it in
MR. CUNNINGHAM: Approximately three weeks —
three or four weeks ago.
FROM THE FLOOR: Have you heard anything back
from the Attorney General's Office about it?
MR. ROLAND: They have asked us for some
additional information, and I think we're probably ready
You ought to call their office ——
FROM THE FLOOR: Who is our point of contact?
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MR. ROLAND: John Butcher. You ought to call
him and ask him when he's going to.proceed.
The second item :——
FROM THE FLOOR: Do you have a number?
MR. ROLAND: 786-4073 ——
FROM THE FLOOR: I can't hear you.
MR. CUNNINGHAM: 786 ——
FROM THE FLOOR: 804?
MR. CUNNINGHAM: Yes, area 'code 804.
MR. ROLAND: 786-4073. The other action is
we've got some problems with the operation. We have not- '
gotten the information we needed —-
(Simultaneous questions and conversations —
not reportable.)
FROM THE FLOOR: Does Mr. Payne have a copy of
the court order?
MR. PAYNE: I might — the '83 order. I think
I probably have that.
MR. ROLAND: We have problems with the process
and we are not sure what's happening with that water, and
we have a hearing at our next Board meeting to possibly
revoke the permit, which means'they cannot continue to
ope ra te
Now those are about the two most serious things
we can do right now.
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.irysimons 1 FROM THE FLOOR: Why don't you contact the
2 judge that issued the order? 
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MR. ROLAND: The 28th of March, and there will
be a full discussion of the concerns we have about the
operation there. .
speak?
speak?
paper?
FROM THE FLOOR: Will the public be able to
MR. ROLAND: Excuse me?
FROM THE FLOOR: Will the public be able to
MR. ROLAND: Yes.
FROM THE FLOOR: Do you have a notice in the
FROM THE FLOOR: Yes.
FROM THE FLOOR: How about radio announcements?
FROM THE FLOOR: Yes.
(Simultaneous questions and conversations —
not reportable.)
FROM THE FLOOR: I had a question about the
lagoons. Are the lagoons that are around that site part of.
the present process?
MR. CUNNINGHAM: No.
FROM THE FLOOR: So basically this water
accumulation is just from rain water?
MR. CUNNINGHAM: Rain water, yes. You have a
net accumulation.
FROM THE FLOOR: I want to ask you. Take
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tonight and it's raining, and he done did some ties and
stuff today, and that stuff is dripping right on the
ground right tonight, right?
MR. CUNNINGHAM: We have told him and we have
sent him a letter in terms of his facility, that he is iniviolation of his permit for operating his facility right
now because he does not have approved plans and
specifications.
FROM THE FLOOR: Then why not shut him down?
MR. CUNNINGHAM: That's why we are having the
hearing to consider that in March.
FROM THE FLOOR: Is that one of your
disapprovals, that he doesn't use pans? Now another plant
around here is not a creosote plant, they use a salt base,
but they use drip pans, what you 'call drop pans. Why
doesn't the State make him use drip pans?
I mean if it's going to take all of $21 million
to clean it all up, it's not going to take long to where
it's back to where it is if you don't use drip pans or
something.
MR. CUNNINGHAM: We have problems with the
existing facility as it is right now. He needs to
install drip pans. We discussed that with him and told
him that he was in violation of his permit right now
because he does not have approved plans.
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FROM THE FLOOR: What -does law say about being
in violation? I mean how many days does a person go
without being shut down? What is the procedure? Does
this person get a hearing?
MR. CUNNINGHAM: That is exactly what we are in
the process of doing right now.
him down?
FROM THE FLOOR: Are you requesting to close
MR. ROLAND: Actually this is the first time
that we have done this particular thing, which is to take
somebody's permit away from them. There is a process for
that as described in our regulations. The first step in
that process is what we are doing on March 28th, which is
to hold a public hearing.
L. A. Clarke has rights, too, under this thing.
We have asked them for some information and there are some
things happening now between now and the Board meeting.
So I can't tell you right now exactly how it's going to
go
FROM THE FLOOR: In other words, you've said to
them though that they need to correct certain things, and
if they don't do it then you have ——
them down?
FROM THE FLOOR: What can citizens do to close
MR, CUNNINGHAM: Yes.
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FROM THE FLOOR: But you warned them.
MR. CUNNINGHAM: Yes,
FROM THE FLOOR: During all your investigations
are you people aware that the West VACO Pond is owned by
. RF&P railroad? iMR. CUNNINGHAM: Yes.
FROM THE FLOOR: Have you all contacted, these
people and said, this is your property and you do
something to stop these people? This property, L. A.
Clarke, are aware that it's owned by RF&P railroad?
MR. CUNNINGHAM: Yes, but the permit to
discharge is issued to L. A. Clarke, and that's ——
FROM THE FLOORS If I own a piece of property
and I go over there and dump uranium all over it, you're
going to come to me because I own that damn piece of
property
MR. CUNNINGHAM: We know that.
FROM THE FLOOR: Then how come you're not
pushing RF&P railroad?
MR. CUNNINGHAM: In terms of the permit for the
existing —~
(Simultaneous questions and conversations —
not reportable.)
FROM THE FLOOR: I'm not talking about
permits. I'm talking about ownership If I own a piece of
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• 135-
property and if I go over.there and put a bunch of crap
all over my property, if I go over there and put 19,000
automobiles tires and set them on file, you all are going
to put^my butt in jail. So how come you're not putting
pressure on RF&P railroad. They own where the Vest VACO
Pond is where there is a lot of contamination, and I can
prove it to you from the county record in the courthouse.
I've already researched it.\
FROM THE FLOOR: Why has the Water Control
Board, since you have had .information related to this
project that dates back as. far as 1973, why have you all
been -so slow and dragging our feet in doing things?
MR. ROLAND: I wouldn't say we've been slow and
dragging our feet. We've taken this into court four
times.
FROM THE FLOOR: Ten or 15 years and you don't
call that dragging your _feet?
MR. ROLAND: Well, these guys can attest to the
fact that we've got sites like this all over the place
that have been there for years and it takes a long time to
get them straight.
The big problem out there is the contamination
at the site. Our main concern right now is the operation
that is going. on__and is _it contributing to the problem.
FROM THE FLOOR: Why do you mean is it
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contributing? It's in violation of a court order.
MR. ROLAND: We've got actions under way no
those things.
FROM THE FLOOR: And that was in 1983, right?
MR. ROLAND: The first court order was '82, and
it was filed for contention in '85. There was basically a
violation similar to what we're seeing now in '85. It was
brought to the judge, and the judge ordered I believe the
company to take the actions that were needed to correct
the problem.
FROM THE FLOOR: You don't have the power to -
close them down; is that what you're saying?
MR. ROLAND: Excuse me?
FROM THE FLOOR: You do not have the authority
or the power to close these people down?
MR. ROLAND: Not without going through a
certain process, which is what we're doing.
FROM THE FLOOR: Why don't you start
processing?
long?
VOICES FROM THE FLOOR: We are.
FROM THE FLOOR: Well, why is it taking so damn
FROM THE FLOOR: Now the meeting that you're
having in Richmond, if a group of citizens were there and
we did some protesting, do you think we would get some
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action?
137
MR. ROLAND: You've got a seven-person citizen
board that is going to listen to all the evidence from
both slides. I mean there are two sides to this issue and
the company does have certain rights, too, and they are
allowed to ——
(Simultaneous questions and conversations —
not reportable,)
FROM THE FLOOR: After this hearing, what is
the next step after the hearing? Who makes the decision?
MR. ROLAND: The board will make a
determination as to whether it's appropriate — it's sort
of a fact-finding . thing to- see .—— -
FROM THE FLOOR: Can we get the names and
addresses of all these board members and we can send them
letters -and let them know we are against this.
FROM THE FLOOR: You made a statement that is
real interesting to me. You made a statement that you've
got problems like this all over the State of Virginia.
MR. ROLAND: We have a lot of sites that ——
FROM THE FLOOR: And you've been playing around
with them for 10 years, and Chuck and Jerry haven't been
doing their job.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that
there are a lot of places ..that before a lot of the laws ——
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FROM THE FLOOR: If you're playing around with
all of the problems this long before you get to a public
hearing, and you know you've got to have a public hearing
bef ore Jyou can do anything, then Lord help the citizens of
the State of Virginia.
their job.
lives ——
FROM THE FLOOR: The Government ain't doing
FROM THE FLOOR: You're dealing with people's
(Simultaneous questions and conversations —•
not reportable.)
MR. ROLAND: When I first stood up I explained
that there were two public processes going on here, and I
think we are mixing the two again.
FROM THE FLOOR: I know what your process is.
MR. ROLAND: These fellows are doing one and
we're doing —— '
(Simultaneous questions and conversations —
not reportable.)
FROM THE FLOOR: Getting back to the amount of
water they pump into their tanks, you're saying that they
took: that water, put it in their tanks, put it in their
boilers and boiled it off into the atmosphere?
MR. CUNNINGHAM: Basically that's where it ends
up going.
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about it?
139t
FROM THE FLOOR: Well, what are you going to do
MR. CUNNINGHAM: That's what they are trying to
address as far as this.
FROM THE FLOOR: You're going to flush the
water into that creek. There is no way you can help but
flush it into that creek.
MR. GERMANN: Everything that these gentlemen
have been saying for the past half hour is leading up to
the point that they have got to go through a certain
process just like we do to get .to .an .end point, and it .
might take a., long time. It takes us a long time, I know
that, and I'm sure it does them, too, but I think that
they are nearing the end of that process.
Like I say, there is an opportunity now, just
like at this meeting, and there is going to be an
opportunity on March 28th where you can make some of your
comments.
FROM THE FLOOR: Do you know the little creek
I'm talking about, right by the side of the old abandoned
railroad.
MR. GERMANN: On which side?
FROM THE FLOOR: Between 208 and 209 there is
an abandoned railroad, it transpires in one end and the
creosote goes in the other. That creek running down
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140.
through there and it only stands that deep —
(Indicating). All right, when you flush on top, you're
five foot deep down in that creek. That's where you're
going to flush all your water.
MR. GERMANN: Like I said, that is .something
that is being addressed. That is being addressed now and
it's going to be taken care of before we even start our
cleanup process. I mean that is-something that is goingi
to be taken care of beforehand one way or the other,
because what you're saying is absolutely correct. It just
wouldn't work.
FROM THE FLOOR: But you know the creek I'm
talking about?
MR. GERMANN: Yes, I do.
MR. CUNNINGHAM: I would like to get back just
to respond to your question in terms of what they arei
doing with the boiler feed. We told them that they have
not submitted to us plans in terms of what they are doingi
and in terms of their operation because they are in
violation of their permit. We are not approving of
anything they are doing.
FROM THE FLOOR: I understand that.
MR. CUNNINGHAM: In addition to that, in their
original application that was submitted to us, it showed
only fresh water' being used as boiler feed.
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Does, that help clarify it?
FROM THE FLOOR: Basically they are taking
water that has run across the site into the retainment
pond, pump it into, a tank and then send it into a boiler
and boiling it off ,as steam to the atmosphere.
MR. CUNNINGHAM: The water that they are using,
according to the company, is not exactly the same in terms
of strength, but essentially they are boiling off a type
of product in the water, and in that respect I don't have
any disagreement with you.
FROM THE FLOOR: I want to know, these
different agencies, I know they have a check-off list of
their operations that they do on a daily basis. Do you
all ever do surprise visits and go right through and see
the check-offs, that they actually are doing what they are
supposed to do on a daily basis or a weekly basis
regarding the operations?
MR. CUNNINGHAM: The first inspection I
conducted over there was unannounced, and I believe
Melany's was unannounced.
FROM THE FLOOR: How many do you do a year?
MR. CUNNINGHAM: Since January ——
FROM THE FLOOR: January of this year?
MR. CUNNINGHAM: —— January of this year we
have been having one of our people go down there on a
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142.
weekly basis.
FROM THE FLOOR: How about last year?
MR. CUNNINGHAM: Previous to .that I'm not sure,
very couple of months, along those lines.
FROM THE FLOOR: How did you all let it get so
bad? Somebody wasn't doing their job or somebody was
holding out a hand. Am I right?
MR. CUNNINGHAM: I think you have to realize
that this site started back in, what, 1930, and a lot ofithe problem, a lot of the groundwater problem that you see
there — like was said, groundwater doesn't move real
fast.
(Simultaneous questions and conversations _.—
not reportable.)
MR. CUNNINGHAM: Groundwater doesn't move realifast, and for it to be getting contamination down in thisIIare and coming to the surface, you've had contamination
for a long time.
FROM THE FLOOR.: I've been down there to load
my truck, and I just to go- down and get some stuff, and I
would walk in stuff that deep right there in front of the
office.
MR. GERMANN: I don't think we disagree with
the fact that there is an ongoing problem there. What we
are saying is that it's not something that just happened
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within the last 5 or 10 or even 15 .years
FROM THE FLOOR: But why has everybody closed
their eyes to all of t.his for so long?.
MR. GERMANN: Well, I mean I think the fact
that we're here even though we've taken a long time to get
here shows that we are not closing our eyes at least.
Yes, sir.
FROM THE FLOOR: Can EPA or the Water Control
Board do anything, right away about_that, to put a barrier
up or something to keep this from coming into the creek
and polluting the Massaponax Creek and the Rappahannock .
River?
(At this point in the proceedings people were
leaving due to the lateness of the hour and holding
private conversations so that hearing was extremely
difficult.)
MR. GERMANN: I'm sorry, can you just rephrase
the first part of your question?
FROM THE FLOOR: The sludge is coming out of
the bank on the Massaponax Creek and getting into the
creek. Are you all or the Water Control Board, are you
going to do anything right_now to put a barrier up to stop
this coming into the creek which is polluting the creek,
the Rappahannock River and the Chesapeake Bay?
MR. GERMANN: What we are going to do as far as
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irysimons 1 the creek is concerned is there is a discharge point •—
2 the answer to your question is we are not addressing thei
3 whole bank at this time, although we are going, to look at
4 it.
5 But there is one main discharge point where the
6 creosote levels have been shown to be particularly high at
7 one of the ends .f the ditches that leads to the creek.
8 ~o we are going co do some excavation, or we are planning
9 to do some excavation now to remove that particularly high
10 area of contamination.
11 Now I know that there are lesser levels at
12 different points along the creek. So what we are going to
13 do is — at this point we don't have a good enough handle
14 on that to just go out and start digging tomorrow. Only
15 in this one area do we have a good enough handle. So we
16 are going to start, like I say, within the next couple of
17 months doing some more sampling in that area and then try
18 to find out whether or not we have to, for example, dredge
19 the creek or whatever. I mean that's a bit radical, but
20 that's something that will be considered.
21 FROM THE FLOOR: For right now can put straw or
22 anything like that to soak up the stuff to keep it from
23 coming ——
24 MR. GERMANN: Where particularly are you
25 talking about?
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FROM THE FLOOR: You know, where the abandoned
railroad is. There is abandoned railroad there between
608 and 609, an abandoned railroad. If you look on the
right-hand side there is an old big bridge, and it's right
behind there. There used to be an old road that ran back
on the other side of the creek, but that's sort of growed
up now.
map
map
FROM THE FLOOR: Why don't you show him on the
(Citizens proceed with Mr. Ostrauskas to the
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Do you know where it is on the
map, or is it even on the map.
FROM THE FLOOR: I don't know. You know the
land better than I. He has probably done walked all over
the re.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Is the the office building on
L. A. Clarke and there is ——
FROM THE FLOOR: Where is the landfill at?
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Where here is 608 right here,
and here is the creek going under 608. So it comes down
here and you see — we don't have the whole creek here.
See, this is 608 ——
FROM THE FLOOR: Up here next to the process
plant. There is a creek that runs right there, and the
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old railroad tracks ——
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: You're talking about up here.
This is it.
FROM THE FLOOR: Yes.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: Well, we are planning on
digging all that up. We are going to clean all that up as
part of the plan,
FROM THE FLOOR: When you pump water down
there, if you don't do something first, you're going to
run it all down in the ocean.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: We are going to dig that up. .
It's going to be dug up and the contaminated water is
going to be ——
FROM THE FLOOR: You can go down there any day
you want to and see ——
MR. GERMANN: Excuse me just for a second. Is
there anybody else out in the audience out here that has a
particular question because otherwise we are just going to
devote some time over here to the map?
Is there anybody else here who has a question?
FROM THE FLOOR: I would like to make one
comment. You guys obviously have done affair job, the
Water Control Board and the EPA. Will you do us one
favor. You're sent here by your boss. The man that can
make authority, I would like to see him down here.
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FROM THE FLOOR: You .guys are peons. You can't
answer our questions and you can't make decisions. We're
paying you .all for nothing. You come out and you say,
okay, tittle people, we'll answer your questions. We
can't do anything for you.. Now you all go away.
MR. GERMANN: That is completely wrong.
FROM THE FLOOR: I think what we should do as
an audience is get up and walk out because we can do as
much walking out as you can do here all night long.
MR. GERMANN: That is completely wrong.
FROM THE FLOOR: I think it's the best protest
that people can do.
FROM THE FLOOR: -There are a lot of I don't
know's .and maybe and ——
MR. GERMANN: Well, you're getting the truth
from us. "That's all I can say. We're doing the best we
can
FROM THE FLOOR: We're gotten absolutely
nothing from you. You can't make a decision. I can't tell
us anything and we can't get any results. We may do this,
we might do_._this, we'll do it five years from now.
MR. GERMANN: What we really need are some
comments on how to do it, not how not to do it.
FROM THE FLOOR: -What-problem have you solved
tonight?
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MR. GERMANN: I obviously haven't solved the
problem you're talking about, but I hope that we have been
able to answer some questions.
FROM THE FLOOR: The problem you came here to
talk about, have you solved that?
MR. GERMANN: We haven't solved anything yet.
FROM THE FLOOR: That's right. There is no
argument about that,
FROM THE FLOOR: Then you can't do anything.
(Simultaneous questions and conversations —
not reportable.)
MR. GERMANN: Just a second.
Yes.
FROM THE FLOOR: I think at this point we need
to organize a citizens group to either file a lawsuit or
have a protest. We need to make some plans as to what we
can do to stop this plant. So what we would like to have
is the names and addresses of all those present here
tonight.
FROM THE FLOOR: That's a good idea.
FROM THE FLOOR: Is it possible that we can get
everybody's name that was here tonight, their names and
addresses, and we need to organize, and the names of the
representatives from all the agencies here.
The next time we have a meeting we would really
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149
like to, and maybe we could even call the Health
Department in and let them tell us what effect this is
having on us. . ~ : • _ - -
MR. GERMANN: Certainly I can give you our
attendance sheet. I don't know if people put down their
addresses.
FROM THE FLOOR: I would like to deal with a
man that can answer our questions.
MR. GERMANN; That's your opinion, sir.
FROM THE FLOOR: Okay, you will give us a copy?
MR. GERMANN: f Yes, sure. I'll tell you want. _
Can you make sure that you give_.me your ad.dress so I can
know who to -send it to before the meeting is over.
FROM THE FLOOR: See, it he can't even give it
to you now, see.
FROM THE FLOOR: He doesn't have a Xerox
machine right here. .__
FROM THE FLOOR: -What type of a follow-up are
we going to have to this meeting?
MR. GERMANN: What type of follow-up would you
like exactly?
I mean this is what would normally happen. We
would within the next 30 days or so sign this record of
decision, which would be a cleanup decision that we would
start an action on.
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jirysimons 1 The next time that we would probably have a
2 meeting would be just when we begin the second phase of
3 this study to tell you what we're going to do then.j
4 Like I say, if you want us to come out and
5 explain the record of decision once we make the decision,
6 we'll do it. Like I said, please tell us that.
7 At the last meeting I was here I handed out,
8 and I know we could have had more meetings in the
9 meantime, but I handed out about ,a zillion business cards,
10 and I don't think I got a call in the last year and a
11 half. I can't go out to everybody and try .to answer their
12 questions. We'll have meetings, as many of them as you
13 want, but you've got to tell us that you want more
14 information if you're not getting, what you need.
15 We will make ourselves available as often as it
16 takes.
17 FROM THE FLOOR: So who makes the decision as
18 to what plan you're going to follow?
19 MR. GERMANN: Our Regional Administrator, but
20 he doesn't just sit there and make a decision off the top
21 of his head. I mean he looks what what we have put
22 together and looks at the response and the summary which
23 summarizes all the comments you've made, and he111 look at
24 all the written comments that come in between now and
25 March 22nd before he makes the decision, and then he'll
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make a decision.
FROM THE FLOOR: What is his name?
MR. GERMANN: His name is James M. Seif,
S-e-i-f, and he can be reached at the same address that
Darius and I have on that proposed plan.
Then those comments, say you send a letter to
him before the comment period closes, he will give it to
us and we will incorporate it in part of the plan, but he
will see it obviously since it's addressed to him,
FROM THE FLOOR; Is it true that ——
Collier?
MR. GERMANN: Just a second. Are you done, Ms.
FROM THE FLOOR: -The minutes from this meeting,
are they open for us to obtain copies of them?
MR. GERMANN: Sure, yes.
FROM THE FLOOR: Who do we address for that?
MR. GERMANN: I'll tell you what. What I'm
going to do w_ith all the information, unless anybody says
differently, is put it in the administrative record, which
is in the County Building, and there should be a guide in
there that tells you where to find each and every
document.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: There is an index in the front
of the record. So when you look at it, and it's obviously
a lot of information, but just look in the index and that
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will help you make sense out of it
MR. GERMANN: So when the decision i-s made you
will each get a notification in the mail. I can tell you
that.
FROM THE FLOOR: Will the citizens have any
input other than this meeting into the decision?
MR. GERMANN: Sure.
MR. OSTRAUSKAS: You can submit comments in
writing. I mean we're not going .to be back here again
until the 22nd to meet with you, but you can write to us
at the address that you've got in the plan here, and any-
written comments will be considered.
MR. GERMANN: If there is anything that you
think of that maybe you didn't say during this meeting or
maybe you feel like you weren't heard during the meeting,
and I know there were certain times when that happened ——
FROM THE FLOOR: Has the EPA considered closing
this plant down completely?
MR. GERMANN: We can't do that.
FROM THE FLOOR: If they are in violation, why
can't you do that?
MR. GERMANN: Well, that's something that is a
little bit difficult to follow, I know it is for me, but
the process that the State Water Control Board is going
through right now could hypothetically eventually result
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in a condition that would.make it impossible for L. A.
Clarke to operate.
FROM THE FLOOR:- Excuse me, I heard someone ask
you earlier about who had closed the plant down in
Maryland, I'm not sure, but I think I read somewhere that
the State of Maryland did. -
MR. GERMANN: It could be.
Anybody else?
FROM THE FLOOR: This meeting with the Control
Board in Richmond, does the State have the authority to
close this place down?
MR. ROLAND: Well, after due process. There is
a process.
FROM THE FLOOR: Ultimately.
MR. ROLAND: Yes, ultimately.
FROM THE FLOOR: I know you have to have a
hearing and a notice and so forth. So after this hearing
on March the 28th, then what is the next step after that?
MR. ROLAND: We get a Board decision on that,
the Citizens Board, and then the company has certain
rights based on how that decision turned out. They could
ask for a formal hearing at that point, which would be
quasi-judicial. It's an administrative action, but it's
very formal. Then if there is a loss there and the
decision is to revoke, then they can go forward with the
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process ——
FROM THE FLOOR: So that might really take a
lot of years to do.
MR. ROLAND: No, not year, but months probably.
FROM THE FLOOR: How about the violation of the
court order?
MR. ROLAND: That is with the Attorney
General's office, and I can't speak for them as to where
they are going with that.
MR. GERMANN: We have a question over here,
this gentleman.
FROM THE FLOOR: I would like to direct a
question to you. On this hearing that you're going to
have in Richmond, what is going to be your__position that
you're going to take to represent to the Board?
MR. ROLAND: At this point in time we have
asked for information from the company and it has not yet
been forthcoming. It will be evaluated, whatever they
give us, between now and the Board meeting.
FROM THE FLOOR: Do we have any representatives
from L. A. Clarke here tonight?
(No response from anyone in the audience.)
FROM THE FLOOR: Have there been amendments
made to this EPA report that we have since it was issued?
Does Spotsylvania have any amendments on this? Since I
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got _this, haye_you issued any amendments to change it?
MR. PAYNE: Which report is that?
FROM THE FLOOR: This Executive Summary. Have
you received amendments or has EPA send_amendments to you?
MR. PAYNE: No, sir. We received the Executive
Summary plus the seven volume set, and that is all we have
received in the last three or four weeks.
FROM THE FLOOR: Could you tell me whether or
not there have been amendments to this?
MR. PAYNE: The Executive Summary is what
Darius was reading from. There have been no changes to _
that, have there?
MR. GERMANN: No, I don't believe so.
FROM THE FLOOR: So it has not been amended?
MR. GERMANN: No,
Anything else?
I do appreciate everybody hanging in for this
amount of time. I hope we at least answered some
questions. Like I say, if you think of something that you
want to say that you didn't say tonight, please give me a
call. My number is on that fact sheet.
Thank you for coming.
. . . The Public Meeting on the Summary of the
RI/FS and the Proposed Remedy for the L. A. Clarke Site
concluded at 10:40 p.m. . . .
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