Unintended(Refrains:)

Unintended(Refrains:)

Lesspathologicalthantheideefixe,notquitetheleitmotif…

Unintended(Refrains)looksatthoserecurringmotifsweattempttoridourselvesofbutcannotescape.InthisexhibitionSandraBridieasksnumerousartists,writersandotherstoidentifyand

findvisualformfortheunintendedrefrainsoftheirartorlives.

Unintended(Refrains:)

CatherineEvansRaafatIshak

AmandaJohnsonAngelaBaileySallieMuirdenPenelopeDavisDenaKahan

JamesMorrisonCynthiaTroupSandraBridieSophieKnezicMartinaCopley

AaronChristopherReesCaitlinCummane

OliviaKohAndrewSeward

CuratedbySandraBridie

GEORGEPATONGALLERY16-25September2015

Secondfloor,UnionHouse,TheUniversityofMelbourne

CatherineEvans

CatherineEvansUntitled2015

ReasonitconstitutesanUnintendedRefrainA small composition of objects that have followedme over timeand place: a volcanic rock I collected while traveling last year, adrinkingstrawfound inthegutterofmystreeta fewmonthsagoand a photograph of my own back, printed in negative. Theabstracted body has recurred in my work for many years. For awhileIcouldn’t letgooftheshapeoftheswan’sneck,butnowithasslippedlower,pulledbygravityperhaps,totheback.Nodoubtmyfocuswillcontinuetoslowlyshift,butfornowthebackremainsunfinished.

CatherineEvans,responsetointerviewquestionsWhatdoyoutake‘unintendedrefrains’tobeortomean?Itookanunintendedrefraintomeananunconsciousmotif,arrangementorsimplyathing that keeps recurring in my artwork. It’s unconscious because it happenswithoutmybeingawareofituntilIlookbackattheworksI’vemadeovertime.OnlythencanIseesomethingsreappearingagainandagainindifferentways.Whatwasyourprocessinselectingyourpiecefortheexhibition?Didyougothroughanumberofoptionstoarriveatwhatwillbedisplayedintheshow?IrecentlymovedoverseasandonlyasmallselectionofobjectsfrommyMelbournestudio followed me. At first I thought the clue to my recurring refrain would laysomehowinthisad-hocbundleofmaterials,formsandideasthatforonereasonoranotherIthoughtimportantenoughatthetimetocarrywithme.Iwrotealist:glasspencilholdervarioussmallrockscollectedfromdifferentplacesjawbonedolphinearbonespinkmetalpolebrokenviolinbow(Istilldon’tknowwhyIpackedthis)oldphotographicpapertwolargeformatblackandwhitenegatives:oneofaback,theotherofanarmpithorsetoothhumanteethsmallleadkenzanspiritlevelItwasn’tuntilaconversationwithSandie that I startedtogo throughsomeof therecurringmotifs in past artworks and things that I feel are unfinished. These alsohappentobethethingsIamworkingoncurrently,drawingonthesmallcollectionofobjects Ibroughtwithme,whilealsoslowlybeginningtoaddtothem.Someofthethingsthatcameupinourconversationwereworkingbetweenthepositiveandnegative image, abstracted body parts, found rocks, the push and pull betweenmonumentalandprecarious,andalwaysinevitablyforme,death–butnotbrutally–alwayswithsomesenseofthepoetic(Ihopeatleast).What is the work or piece you have selected to show and how does this piecerepresentanUnintendedRefrain?

I decided to make a new work for the exhibition, a small arrangement orcompositionofnewandoldobjects, includingasilvergelatinprintfromoneofthelargeformatnegativesIbroughtfromMelbourne.It’saphotographofmyownback,butprintedinthenegativeitbecomesanabstractedconstellationoflightmarkings,likestars,acrossadarkerspace.Leaningagainstit isasmallvolcanicrockbalancedonapinkdrinkingstraw.TherockisoneofmanyIcollectedwhiletravellinglastyearandthestrawIfoundinthegutterofmystreetjustafewmonthsago.ItclearlycontainsmanyofthematerialsandmotifsthatI’vealreadymentioned,butforme,now,thekeyunintendedrefrainistheimageoftheback.OnlyaftermakingthisselectiondidIrealisethatthebackfirstoccurredinmyworkin 2010 in a small print I included in my first solo show, Swan Song (which bycoincidencewasalsoatGeorgePatonGallery). Itwasaphoto taken froma familyphotoalbumofmyfatherandbrotherwalkingawayfromthecamerahandinhand,through the shallow surf of a beach.At the time I hadbecomeobsessedwith theshape of the swan’s neck, which I only realise now while writing is actually anextensionoftheback,ortheotherwayaround,dependingonwhichwayyoulookatit.Itnextoccurredin2013whenIappropriatedanotherphotofrommyfamilyalbums,thistimeacloseupphotoofmybrother’sbackbeforehehadsurgerytoremovealarge and unusual mole. It was also the first time I consciously juxtaposed themarkingsofthebodyagainstthoseofasmallrock,callingtheworkBlemish.Itwasn’tuntil ImadetheworkStandingStone (2014) that Iused the imageofmyownback,butInevershowedtheoriginalimage,justuseditasamaporblueprintfor the final sculptural installation. This is the first time I’ve shown the originalimage.WhatdoesthisUnintendedRefrainmeantoyou?This isahardquestiontoanswer. It’sdifficult Ithinkforthesimplereasonthatit’sunintended, it’s unconscious. If I take only the back, themost central part of thehuman body, the part that links all other parts, the part we can’t see ourselveswithout an aid, the part we turn to look the other way, and try to think what itmeans the first readings feel too simple, too one-dimensional. I think to delvedeeperIneedtodipmoreintomyunconsciousandchildhoodmemoriesanditstartsto feel abit Freudian. That’snot something I think I candohereandnow for thispublictext,foryou,thereader,whomImightknowornot.Ormaybethisisjustanexcusebecause,really,Idon’tknowwherethegenesisofthebackinmyworklaysatall.

One thing I can say though is that I know these recurring refrains come from thematerialof life, theyaredeeplypersonal. Theabstractedbodyhas recurred inmyworkformanyyears.Forawhile Icouldn’t letgooftheshapeoftheswan’sneck,butnowithasslippedlower,pulledbygravityperhaps,totheback.Nodoubtitwillcontinuetoslowlyshift,butfornowthebackremainsunfinished.Howinteresting,useful,perplexingorirritatinghasthisexercisebeenforyou?Theprocessofidentifyingarecurringmotifinmyworkandthenreallyexaminingitthroughconversation,andwritingthistext,hasbeentheperfectreasonIneededtositdownandlookatmypracticefromadifferentperspective.Usuallyoneworkorprojectbleedsintothenextandit’snotoftenIrevisitearlierworksinsuchdetail.ItfeelsabitlikeI’vewrittenanideainventory,likesomeonemightmakealistofthingsbeforetravelling.It’sbeen10monthssinceImovedoverseasandI’mstartingtorealisethatIbroughta lotmore than thismismatched list of objectswithme. These areonly the smallkeys tomuch larger histories and events that cross the personal to the collective,anddareIsay,eventhehumantothegeologic.

RaafatIshak

RaafatIshakOffSeason2015ReasonitconstitutesanUnintendedRefrainOffSeasonconsiderstheactofmakingasanunintendedrefrain,ahabitual enterprise and a specifically prescribed exercise, whichaddressesandspeculatesonitsprogrammaticsenseofruptureandmourning.Culturalimplicationsaside,thecompulsiontomakeandpresent are the pervasive traits of a primordial duty of gift andexchange.OffSeasonisderivedfromthenarcissisticstructureofitsproperties.Itelucidatesitschronologicalpositionandaddictiontonicotine, an embedded vagary of language, a disposition towardshistorical lineage and an unmitigated incarceration in symbols oftimeandplace.

InterviewwithRaafatIshakbySandraBridie,25August2015SandieBridie:Whatdoyoutake‘unintendedrefrains’tomean?Raafat Ishak: I suppose I took it tomean things that one uses, whether in an artpracticeorjustingeneral–sometimesitisvocabulary,sometimesitisfood–butitisathing,oneparticularthingthatonecan’tgetawayfromandonedoesn’treallyrealisethatitistheretobeginwithuntilonestopstothinkaboutit.And so, what was your process in selecting a piece for the exhibition, did you gothroughanumberofoptionstoarriveatwhatwillbeintheshow?Not really, I justhappened tobe in theprocessof trying to stopusingaparticularmaterial that has really been quite present inmy practice for awhile. I feel like Ihavebeengoingthroughthatprocessforalongtimeaswell,butIhaven’tmanagedtostopusingit.ThatmaterialisMDF.It’sslightlytoxicasamaterialisn’tit?Itisslightlytoxic.Itisnotreallynicetocut.Ihaveuseditextensively.ItdoescertainthingsthatIamverycomfortablewith.IthascertainpersonalreferencesthatIthinkareimportant,butIdon’treallywantthematerialtocontrolwhatImake,soIhavebeenveryconsciousof trying tostopusing itorcuttingdownusing it.Though thefactisthateverytimeIsetouttodoingthisItendtofailtostopusingit,soitkeepscomingback.It is likea signaturematerial for you though, isn’t it? Theactual surfaceofMDF, Iwouldassociatewithyourwork,eventhoughIdohaveanearlycanvasworkofyoursathome.I think that ispartly theproblem– Idon’twant it tobea signaturematerialand Idon’twantittobeawaytoidentifymywork.AllthereferencesthereareinMDFinmypracticearenotaboutsignatureandnotabout identifyingastyleandawayofworkingthatisuniquetome,soIthinkthatismyproblemwithit.Havingsaidthat,Iamabout to startacoupleof reallymajorworks inMDF, thinking thatmaybe thiswillbethelasttime.Whatwouldyouuseinstead?Again it depends on the work, the MDF has been suitable, but not the onlyappropriate material for certain projects. I think if I were to continue painting Iwouldprobablygobacktocanvas,Iwouldgobacktoverytraditionalmaterials.Then the works read as paintings more that modules. My sense is that you havesometimesusedtheMDFpanelsassculpturalmodules.Yes,butoftentheyarepaintingsaswell,theyarejustpaintingsonthewall.

Whatisyourchosenpiece?Thethreethingsthatcametomind,tryingtoworkouthowtousetheMDFwere;addictiontosomething,inthiscaseanaddictiontotobacco,whichIamnotaddictedtoanymorebecauseIdon’tsmoke;Imakeareferenceto‘CigarsofthePharaohs’,which is a Tintin book. I think the pharaohs part means being stuck to a certainheritage,andusingtheMDFmeansbeingstucktoacertainmaterial,soit’sacertainphysical primordial addiction, a physical addiction and also a heritage addiction –combining the three. I am using a painting that I have drawn up but I have notstarted on MDF, using the reverse side of it, which has a hanging system I havecreatedfortheMDF,withthetitle‘CigarsofthePharaohs’writtenbackwards.That’smyideaatthisstage;it’sthematerialandreferencetothetwotypesofaddiction.It’sinteresting,thereareanumberofpeoplewhoreadtheUnintendedRefrainasadefault;it’snotnecessarilysomethingthatishiddenfromthemorunconsciousthatis inserted into their practice over time, it’s something they are wanting to desistfrom but they are finding it difficult. Actually they may find that they accept thedefault, realising thatby identifying the thing they return tooutofhabit, they canmake a choice aboutwhether this is desired or not. ‘Refrain’ can be the repeat ofsomething,butitcanalsobedesistingfrom,‘refrainfromdoingthis’.Italmostseemscontradictorythetwomeanings,‘stopit’or‘returntoit’.Yeah,andIfeellikeIamstuckinbetween,becauseIdowanttostopfortwosetsofreasonsand theyarecontradictory reasons,which isproblematic,butat thesametimeit’sactuallyagoodthingbecauseIdon’thavetomakethatdecision.IaminaconundrumandIamenjoyingthat.ButIthinkthatmaybeonethingthatthisprojectdoesisthatitmakesyouconsciousofthosechoicesandconsciousofthesethingsthatrepeatthemselves.Itallowsyoutostandbackalittlebitfromyourpracticeandthenyoucanworkout,doIwantthisthing,ordon’tI?Howeverusefulthatis.So, the next question is: how interesting, useful, irritating or perplexing has thisprojectbeenforyou?ThethingthatIfoundmostinterestingaboutthisprojectis,asyoujustmentioned,itmakes you acknowledge certain things that have been quite present in a practiceitselfthatdon’tgethighlightedoracknowledgedspecifically.Ithinkitisgoodtostepback andmake a point to oneself, at least, that this iswhat you are doing – thatwhen you turn a piece ofMDF around and sign it, it takes a certain persona, youattachacertainpersonatothatmaterial.IsupposeIammoreinterestednowinanawarenessofwhatkindofmeaningoragency,Isuppose,thatmaterialisimplying.

Ijustwanttoaskafinalquestion,withMDF,whatisyourattachmenttoitoutsideofyourartpractice?Asamaterial,whathistorydoesithaveforyou?Istartedusingitaccidentally,becauseitwasamaterialthatwasavailableathand.Italsocoincidedwithmeworkinginconservationalong,longtimeagoatthearchive.Andyouuseditinartconservationinbacking?No. Conservators stay away from it, so I was trying to utilisematerials that wereabsoluteno-nosinconservation.Soitwasakindofperversity.Theotherthingis itbecameaholistictypeofmaterial;itreferstome,itreferstothedesert,itreferstosandandithasthatcolorationthatIgrewupwith.That’swhyIthinkMDFdoesseemsignaturedbyyouandalsobecauseitisawritingsurface,it’sabeautifulsurfacetowriteon,asyouhavedone.Yes.Apartfromthosereferences,itisactuallyareallynicematerialtoworkon;it’ssmooth,it’seven,it’shardyandit’salsoreallycheap.

AmandaJohnson

AmandaJohnsonDoorwaystrips:viewout2009,2015ReasonitconstitutesanUnintendedRefrainStripsoflandscapeandfluorescentstripshavebeenanunintended'process refrain' in my work since art school, though they don'talwaysendupinthefinalwork.Ihavehundredsofthesestrips.Myold folios of work in progress contain strips of deconstructedlandscapes and strips of colour that I would use to workout/collage visual ideas on the way to making some kind ofderomanticised landscape. They always remind me of colouredplastic strips over a doorway, be they over a house entry, a tentflap,oracaravanannexentry.Thestripsimplyafragmentedviewout,butalso,aninterruptedview.Thefinalpaintingsoftenendedup being interrupted by some kind of retinal haze (fluorescenceoverlays)evenifthestripsgetcastaway.Ihaveretrievedsomeofthese old strips and put them together to make a new work inwhichthehorizonlinewavers,isnotsure.

AmandaJohnsonresponsetointerviewquestionsSandraBridie:Whatdoyoutake‘unintendedrefrains’tobeortomean?Amanda Johnson:As you say, Sandie, it is not quite aleitmotifbut something thatseemstometobeoutwardlybornofchanceor intuitionata levelofprocess,yetsomething which maps across consecutive processes/ideas, almost unwittingly. Ifyoulookcloselyatideasforashoworwork(andwiththebenefitofhindsight)youcanseethat therearethingsyoumaynothave includedornoticed in theobviousconceptual, material blueprint intended for a work. Yet these 'refrains', be theymaterialorconceptualnuances,arenonethelessoftenpresentatalevelofprocessandproduct.Whatwasyourprocessinselectingyourpiecefortheexhibition?Didyougothroughanumberofoptionstoarriveatwhatwillbedisplayedintheshow?At first I thought about it in my head. A big mistake! Luckily the interview tapeaccidentallydissolved(thiswas‘unintended’)soIhadachancetothinkmoredeeplyand less cerebrally about this theme again. Then I scoured some old folios andlookedat remnantprocessdrawings,painted samples todivinewhat Imighthavenotadmittedtomyfinalartists'statementsovertime.IftherewerethingsIleftoutwhen describing ideas, process and materiality, etc.why was this so? Simpleeditorialoranunwillingnesstofitthingsinwhichdidn'tneatlyfittheovertblueprintofthework?Igatheredupbitsandpiecesofworkinprogress,whichhadsomethingin commonover timebutwhichwerenot referred toovertly inany statementsofmine.What is the work or piece you have selected to show and how does this piecerepresentanUnintendedRefrain?Stripsoflandscapeandfluorescentstripshavebeenanunintended'processrefrain'inmyworksinceartschool,thoughtheydon'talwaysendupinthefinalwork.Ihavehundreds of these strips. My old folios of work in progress contain strips ofdeconstructedlandscapesandstripsofcolourthat Iwouldusetoworkout/collagevisual ideas on the way to making some kind of deromanticised landscape. Theyalwaysremindmeofcolouredplasticstripesoveradoorway,betheyoverahouseentry,atentflap,oracaravanannexeentry.Thestripsimplyafragmentedviewout,butalso,an interruptedview.Thefinalpaintingsoftenendedupbeing interruptedbysomekindofretinalhaze(fluorescenceoverlays)evenifthestripsgetcastaway.Ihaveretrievedsomeoftheseoldstripsandputthemtogethertomakeanewworkinwhichthehorizonlinewavers,isnotsure.ItisaveryAustralianthingintermsofthelandscapequotationusually,butmaybethesecolours,thesebrokenlandscapesfeed into some intended themes, helping to suggest subtle warnings about

ecologicalproblemsandpullthecurtainbackoncertaincultural,socialandpoliticalmystificationspresentineventheloveliestcoloniallandscapes.Howinteresting,useful,perplexingorirritatinghasthisexercisebeenforyou?Itmademethinkharderaboutthenuancesofprocess.Howtheyescapeusoften,evenwhentheyarestaringyouintheface.Atfirst, IthinkI lookedtooliterallyfortheunintended.Imayhaveevendeceivedmyselfastowhatwasunintended!Thentheaccidentofhavingmytapedinterviewdeletedgavemeawelcomeopportunityto think again! To search out somemore subtle aspects of creative process overtime,which had eludedmeor been summarily put to bed. Perhaps Iwill be a bitkinder to the intuitive side of art making as a result of this process. Thank youSandie!

AngelaBailey

AngelaBaileyCapture&Pocket2015

ReasonitconstitutesanUnintendedRefrainIrealizedinthetransitionfromanaloguetodigitalthatincreasinglyas I take photographs on my phone – immediately and perhapssubconsciously I have developed a habit of ‘collecting’ images –pathways, linesofdesire, linesof light fornoparticular reasonorintended further use other than collecting the capture. Thisperhaps is my unintended refrain…collecting – the capture, theforage,habituallypocketingbitsandpiecesthatservenoparticularpurpose,creatinganarchivenevertobeused…justtofliprandomlythru. The stack of photographs here are the most recent in this‘compulsiveness’.Thebitsandpieces,apocketfulcollection.

InterviewwithAngelaBailey,27August2015SandraBridie:Whatdoyoutake‘unintendedrefrains’tobeortomean?Angela Bailey: Well I think the first thing that I did when I looked at this blurbproperlywasthatIlookedupwhatthetermsmeantintheblurbyousentus.Thedefinitionsforideefixeandleitmotif?Yes, just to familiarisemyselfwith them so that I wasn’tworking at a completelydifferentangle.ThenIwasfixatedonthecreative,notpathological!Ilovetheterm‘ideefixe’andIuseitalotandIthoughtthatIwoulduseitasaterminthetitleofthisexhibition,butthenwhenIactuallylookeditup,itdefinedatypeofobsessionthatIdidn’twanttolinkwiththeworkshown,obsessionsseenincriminalbehaviours,suchasstalkeroramurderer.Yes, so that immediately made me think about obsessiveness and that led tosomething that is recurring. So Iwas looking at something that is recurring, but isobsessive, that we don’t have control over. Is that something that you hadimagined?Everyone has a different approach to it. I was thinking about artists that I hadinterviewedwhomayrepeatedlyuseamaterial,orrepeatedlyuseamotifandwhenI had asked them about this repetition and what connection it had to them theydidn’t know what I was talking about. They didn’t recognise the thing thatreappearedintheirwork.Itwassomethingthattheyhadn’teventhoughabout,butitwassomethingthatwasclearlyrecurringandevident.SothenIthoughtaboutmyownpracticeandhowthisun-thought-outrecurrencemightworkinmyownpracticeanditwaslessevidenttomewhatthatthingmightbe.SothenIthoughtitwouldbeinteresting to interrogate other artists regarding this question, what are therepetitionsthatyoudon’tthinktheworkisabout,butsomehowtheyfindthemselvesinthere.Andhere,possiblyanotherobservercanactuallyseetheserepetitionsmoreclearly than theartist can. So, for somepeople in the show, I have suggested thattheyasksomeoneelsetolookattheirworktoseeiftherewasanythingtheycouldgleanacrosstheirbodyofworktoseeanypatternsthere.Yes,becauseIwaslookingbackovermyworkalsoinrelationtosomeoftheprojectsI was working on, for example. A lot of those bigger commissions were workingaround housing estates that were in the process of being demolished and thetenants were being relocated. There was that theme of dispossession anddemolition,butalsothatthingofcapturing–aswellasthestoriesandthenarrativeof having lived there andmade their home – but also the actual marking on thephysicalsurfacethatshowslifeandwheresomeonehadbeen.

It’salmostlikethemarkingsonaprisonwalloracubbyhouse.Yes, exactly. So that was something in that work, that I linkedwith ‘pathological’whichmademethinkofasobsessive,whichmademethinkaboutwhatIreallydoliketophotograph.Youoftenforgettothinkaboutwhatyoulike,actually.Yes.AndmademethinkaboutwhatIlikewastheeaseoftakingphotographsonmymobilephone.Ihavealmostgonetocollectingthoseimages,ratherthannecessarilyfeaturing them as part of a project or exhibition. It’s almost like a transfer ofcollecting–it’slikeIseemarkingsorIseeatraceandIthink‘Ooh,Iwilltakeaphotoofthat!’Thenitisinthesystem,Ihavegotit.Soyoudon’tneedtomakeaworkofit?No,notnecessarily–it’sabitodd!So the next question is what was your process in selecting your piece for theexhibitionanddidyougothroughanumberofoptionstoarriveatwhatwillbeintheshow?Ihavebeen thinkingaround the ideaof twoof those things; tracesandcollecting.The collecting one, I think is something that unfortunately I have inherited fromfamilybackground.Soyouhavelotsofcollections?Lotsof things that turn intocollections;weird things thatyou justput ina jarandfeaturethatway,thingsthatyouhavejustsortofkept.Soadigitalarchivetakesupmuchlessspace,doesn’tit?Exactly, sowithdigital, takingphotoswithaphone, Iwill take shotsof those littletracks;‘linesofdesire’thatyoufindonthelandscapewherepeoplehavemadetheirownpathways togetsomewhereandnot followedthe landscaped,concretepath.That’ssomethingIlove,whenIcomeacrossoneofthoseIwilltakeaphoto.Intheurbanenvironmentnow,everythingislandscaped;youarealwaystoldwhichwaytowalk,whichwaytonavigateyourwaythroughsomewhere,butpeoplestillfindtheirownwaytoside-trackandcutpathsandthings.Inotice thateven in thenew landscapingoutside thenewArchitectureandDesignbuilding on campus here. It is so clear what you should and shouldn’t do, butstudentsstillmakenewpaths.DidyoufindanyofthatontheCamino?Therewereoftendifferenttracksandyoucouldgetlostprettyeasilyifyoutookyourown tracks. But some of these tracks that have been walked on over at least a

millenniumweresonarrow,so itwaskindoftheopposite, Iwasthinking,howcanthisbewhensomanythousands–millionshavewalkedalonghere?Weretheysunken?Someofthemwere,butitwasmoreasyoumadeyourwaytoSantiago,wheretherewere the really old original tracks through woodland and so forth, it was leafyunderfoot and you could walk as if in a dream, like you were floating. I thinksomeonewhowroteonittalksaboutdesirelines,thatyouhavesomeotherlyvolitionwhen walking along these paths to Santiago, as if you were drawn along. So,anyway,that’sbesidethepointofthisinterview!Yes,sothat’swhereIamleadingattheminute–howtopotentiallyshowsomeofthesedigitaltraces,orshowingsomeofacollection.Aphysical collection, or both?Are they two different things – do you see themassomethingtochoosebetween?Potentially. The collection idea is not necessarily a ‘collection’; it is like things. It’slikepilesofthingsthatshouldbecategorisedintosomething,buttheyarenot.Andtheyarejustwaitingfortheirmoment…Theyarejustwaiting.So,didyougothroughaprocesstoarriveatthis?Didyouworryaboutthequestionorstartoffthinking–No,IguessIwasthinkingaboutitbeinginrelationtothevisualformordimensionthere in the initialblurb.So Iwas thinkingabouthowbest tovisualisewhatexistsratherthanmakinganewwork–goingbackthroughadigitalarchive,drawingoutsome of those images that show that fixation. So I guess I have looked at it as afixationofwhatIcontinuetotakephotographsof.Thatwithouthavingbeenaskedthequestionandwithoutgoingbackandlookingatwhatyoudotakephotosofyouwouldn’thavebeenquitesoawareof.Essentially. I have become aware of the way that I collect images – it is notnecessarily collecting and collating. I am collecting them without knowing if I amgoingtoshowthemassuch,oreverdoanythingwiththem.Soit’sawayofnotingthings.Yeah. Like there’s this photograph of this tree that this guy would decorate eachChristmasinhisfrontyardandbeforeeverythingstartedbecomingallveryelectricalas farasdecorating.Hewould justdothesereallysimpledecorationsandtinsel inthe tree, every single year exactly the same. I would photography this everyChristmasandIdiditforaboutfifteenyears.

Wehaveseenphotosofthishaven’twe?Yeah,sowiththatsortofcollecting.Andrecordingitbecausemaybehehasn’t.Ithinkthefunisinthedoingofit.Yeah,andIthinkthatattitudestemsfrom–thisiswhatthisprojectmademethinkabout– likesomeofthehousingestateprojectswhereessentiallythatmighthavestarted – other people’s ways of marking the environment and also what peopleleavebehind.Whentheylefttheflatsandwererelocatedtheydidn’tneedtomoveouteverything, itwasnot like therewasabondoranything itwasall going tobedemolishedsoitwasjustseeingwhatpeopleleft.So what is the work or piece that you will show – it sounds like you haven’tdeterminedthat?Ithinkyouhaveansweredhowthismightrepresentanunintendedrefrain, but if you were to show the photos, what kind of format would that be?Woulditbeadigitalformatorwoulditbeprints?I have thought about that in terms of potentially creating one print, but if youimaginethatyoupulledoutadrawerinacollectinginstitution,thathadlittleboxesandthingsandthenyoupushbackthedraweragain.SoIhavelookedattheideaofaprintthatlookslikeyouimagineifyoupulledoutadrawerandthepictureswereinthere. I have also looked at the idea of doing the prints small and you could justshuffle through them like swap cards. Like a physical version of how you shufflethrough things on a phone. Or else one of my fabulous heaps of things – I justthoughtofbringinginawholepileofthings.Thingsofacertaincategoryofakindoflikenesstooneanother?Yeah,inaboxorinalittlebowl.SotheyarethethreeoptionsIhavethoughtof.Andthefinalquestionis,howinteresting,useful,perplexingand/orirritatinghasthisexercisebeenforyou?Not irritating, Sandie! What is interesting about it has been reflecting, you don’talwaysaskyourselfwhy,sometimeswhenyouendupwithabodyofwork.Oryouknowwhyyoumighthavestartedsomething,butthenwhenyoulookbackyouseealotofthreadsthatyouwerenotawareof.Ihavebeenconsciousofthephotographcollecting,whichisnothingnew,butformeithasbecomemoreapparentinthelastfewyears.SinceyougotaniPhonewithacertainamountofstorageonit?Yeah,potentially.Iknowthatwiththesoftwareandthedigitalyoudogetlazy,yougetreallylazy.Youtakemanymorephotosthanyouneedandyoudon’teditthem.

Yeah,thoughonaphotographicjoborsomethingIwilleditthem,butstillthetimethat you spend on the computer far outweighs the time that you shoot. Theseparationfromthatinitialtechniqueandcraftofphotographyhaschangedandsothatmindseteventuallygoes.Sotheprojecthelpedyoutoreflectonthatdifference?Yeah,andalsoIthinkthatmaybetheideathatI likeaboutcollectingis Idon’tfeelthepressureofeveryphotographneedstospeak,orsomething.Youcanmakesenseofthatlater.Yeah, because it is probably more calming that way than knowing that I have tochoosesomethingdownthetrackinfrontofthecomputer.Iamnotgoingtogoallanalogue,butIdomissthatnicecalmnessofbeinginthedarkroom.Andhavingaproofsheetandcirclingtheonesthatyouwilluse,thephysicalprocessthatisinvolved.

SallieMuirden

SallieMuirdenTheCloth,theWimple,theScarfReasontheseworksconstituteanUnintendedRefrainEach of the central characters in my three novels is depicted in the coverimagesbelow.Whatdothoseimageshaveincommon?Yes, younoticed. The female in each cover is clutching at apieceof fabric: acloth,awimpleorascarf.Whytherepetition? Is thisastylisticconventionofthe historical romance genre? Does it indicate the book designer lackedimagination?Canweassumeanythingabouteachofthefemalecharactersbytheirattachmenttocloth?WhenIrealisedtheevidentpatternmyheartsank.The superb cover of A Woman of Seville (2009) featured another heroinetuggingon fabric,anotherdeferral to femininewilesorapparel.Andwith thescarf in A Woman of Seville one thought immediately of the tragic IsadoraDuncan.Arepetitiveticwasapparent,yes,butwasitintendedorunintended?AfterallIspentabouttwelveyearsthinkingupnarrativesfortheverydifferentheroines—MariaTeresa,Marie-FranceandPaula—toactoutintheirrolesasunhappyprincess,nunandcourtesan.You’dassumeIknewwhatIwasdoing.Asacreatorofhistoricalfictiontheinhibited,closetedprotagonisthasbeenmydomain, along with their struggle or part metamorphosis. Yet I haveincreasingly yearned to construct post-feminist, contemporary women whohavemodernsensibilitiesandgreatercontrolovertheirdestinies.Myfavouritefictional charactersare thewell-earthed, sagacious, independentwomen/girlswhowalkunimpeded, thoughnotunscathed, through thenovelsofMargaretDrabble,Doris Lessing andCarsonMcCullers. Suffice to say the virginal cloth,the suffocating wimple, the seductive scarf have been expunged from theirwardrobesforgood!

InterviewwithSallieMuirdenWhatdoyoutake‘unintendedrefrains’tobeortomean?Somethingthatyourepeatoverandover…arefrain…withoutconsciouslysettingouttodoso…forexampleapersonwhoalwaysendsupwriting in thevoiceofachildwhen theywanted towrite in anadult voice…conscious versusunconsciousdrivesareatwork.Whatwasyourprocessinselectingyourpiecefortheexhibition?Didyougothroughanumberofoptionstoarriveatwhatwillbeshownintheshow?I came to this idea pretty quickly, however I did consider another relatedUnintended Refrain being my tendency to write in the historical past, after I’vestarted out trying to write a more contemporary novel. That is also true of theexampleI’vechosen,butIwantedtousethevisualimagesinthecoverstoillustratewhatImeant.HowdoesyourchosenpiecerepresentanUnintendedRefrain?Onecanseethatthereisabitofapatternoperatinginthecoverswiththefemalecharactersgrabbingatapieceofcloth.Andasanovelistonedoesn’twanttorepeatoneself;onewantseachbooktodonewthings.Itisavisualrepetitionprimarily.Myconcern is that it suggests that my novels are operating at the level of genreromance…whereas I wanted my history to be postmodern and postfeminist andquestioningsomeofthefemininerolesthatareforegroundedinthestories.Coversalways simplify a novel’s sprawling meaning, so that is partly to be expected. Iagreedtoallthecovers,asIfelttheycapturedtheessenceofeachnovel.Howinteresting,usefulorperplexinghasthisexercisebeenforyou?TheinterestingquestionthathasarisenformeiswhydoIkeepwritingunliberated,naïve, trapped female characters when I’d like to write liberated knowingcontemporary characters, and howmuch do the compromised restricted femalesreflectwho Iamasaperson?Obviously there’sa looserelationshipbetweeneachcharacterandmyself.HoweveritmayjustbethatIliketowriteaboutthepast,thatIneedsomeimaginativedistancebetweenmyselfandmyartisticrealityinordertoexpressmyselffreely.Degaslovedtopaintballetdancers…itwashispassion…soweshouldletartistsfollowtheirwhimseveniftheykeeprepeatingthemselves.

PenelopeDavis

PenelopeDavisReasonitconstitutesanUnintendedRefrainAsanartist,Ihaveadefaultbuttonthatconsistentlyresetsitselfto‘haptic’ processes. Photography can instantly record due to itslargely mechanical and automated production. Yet in spite of allattemptstostreamlineorhastenthingstowardsanoutcome,Ifindmyself (often againstmy better judgement) getting caught up inslow, hand-made techniques that make the whole processridiculously inefficient. I arrest those aspects of photography’simmediacy and transform them into something quite contrary totheirnature,thehapticratherthanthedistantandvisual.PerhapsIdon’t have the confidence to commit to any singular expertsweepinggesture,ormaybeIjustfinditcomfortingtopickawayatsomething endlessly through a number of time-consuming (ofteninexpert)steps.Ormaybe,makingthingssimplyrequiresdetailed,proceduralengagementwiththematerialityoftheworld.

InterviewwithPenelopeDavis,18August2015Sandie Bridie: Penny,what sort of process did you go through to decidewhat youwouldchoosetoexhibitin‘UnintendedRefrains?’Penelope Davis: Now I started thinking, when I read your email, what youmightmeanby ‘UnintendedRefrains’,whatsortof imageyoumighthave, intermsofanexhibitionoutcome?Iwasn’tquitesure,soIthought;Iwillseewherethistakesme,what it means for me. I started to think of processes or techniques that I mightdefaulttoinmyartpracticeforbetterorworseoragainstmybetterjudgement.Processesyouunconsciouslyreturnto?Yes. I startedtothinkaboutvariousthingsthat Idoand I triedtoworkoutwhat Ithoughtwereconsideredactionsinmypracticeandonesthatwerelessconsideredandweremorefall-backordefaultprocesses.TheonethatIkeptongoingbacktoinmymindandthatIkeepcomingbacktoallthetimeinmypracticeiswhatIcallmy‘hapticprocess’.Whatdoyoumeanby‘hapticprocess’?Itsoundslikeitisquitealargeoroverridingaspectofyourpractice.It’s not large; it’s quite small actually. Haptic is ‘of the hand’ – handmade, and Ialways fall back on those sort of hand made processes, compared to mechanicalprocesses or using new technologies or outsourcing aspects ofmywork to skilledtechnicians.Andutilising theseothermodes is a consideration youare awareof that youhavehadformakingwork?Ioftenthink;gosh,whyamIdoingthisincrediblylabourintensivestudiopractice?Itjustseemstobuildandbuildandbuild. Iwill startwithsomethingandthenthink;what if I try that? Which is always some sort of handmade process. It’s labourintensive, it takesanawfully longtimeand Iknowthat Iquiteenjoydoing it,but Ialsofeeltrappedbyit.Butyouwouldn’tbeabletothinkthroughtheprocessifyouweren’tactuallymakingityourself.Probably not, but I don’t know if thismakes sense, but sometimes I think if I justthought large or thought grand or strategically and I thought; ok, how might Iachievethis?Ifyouworkedbackmentallyfromtheendpoint?Yes,ratherthanstartandworkfromthat.Itreallyisadefault–whenIwasthinkingabout this, I thoughtoften I find that I frustratemyselfwith it,but I thinkactually

thatIhaveprobablybeendoingthisforlongenough,thatthisisjustthewaythatIwork.Andsowasthequestionusefulforyou,tostandbackfromyourpracticeandlookatsomethingthatisoverridinginitthatyoumightwanttocerebrallywishtoresistorchange?Orwasn’tthisnecessarilyanewinsight?I have probably always been conscious of it, but I actually had to think about itcritically.Itisjustyournativewayofworking.AtthemomentIammakingmoreofthesejellyfishobjects–theyaregettingmoreandmore elaborate and bigger and bigger. The sewing involved, honestly, I oftenhave people giving me suggestions about what I should do in terms of using 3Dprinters andoutsourcing jobs tootherpeople.As soonas they start talking tomeaboutthisstuffIhave,like,abristlingresistancetoit.It’slikesomeoneaskingtohelpyouinthekitchenandyouhavetostandbackfromyourprocesstobeabletoinstructthem–itrequiredstandingoutsideofyourworktoinstructothers,whichcantakeitsowntime.Yeah,and I thinkthewholehaptic,craftedthing ispossiblynotthat fashionableatthemoment.Oh,ifyouareusinglatex-thatbringsituptothepresentdoesn’tit?Mouldingandcastingandallofthatsortofstuff,whichiswhatIhavealwaysdone;it’sreallyoldfashionedand,dareIsayit,abitdaggy,butitiswhereIfindmyself.ItismydefaultandIwasalsothinkingaboutthis furtherSandie, Idon’twantthistosoundsentimental,butmyfatherusedhishandsallthetimeinhiswork.Thatwasmyinstantconnectionaswell;thereisasculptingtraditioninyourfamily.Whatkindofobjectareyouthinkingyouwillshowtorepresentthisidea–ordidyouwanttosayanythingfurtheronthedefaultofthehandmade?No,no, Idon’twant tosayanything furtheror I think Iwill tiemyselfup inknots,that this haptic thing is more considered than it is! I guess it is considered now,because I have particular skills. So the object; I was thinking what could it be? Aneedleandthread,that’stooclichéd,andnotoneofmyobjects.Soyouarethinkingofshowinganobjectratherthanawork?Ihavebroughtitalongactually;Ineedtoassembleitandit’sreallysilly.QuiteafewyearsagoIcastinsiliconesomeofmyfingersandtheyhavejustbeenhangingaboutmystudiosandhome.Theyarequitecreepy,nastylookingthingsbutIthought,ohwell, Iwould justputmyfingers intheshow.(Penelopebringsoutthecast fingersfrom theirwrapping). They are not art objects really… I look at them and I think,

yeah,theyaremyfingers,Irecognisemyhands.SoIthinkIwillsticksomeofthemtogetherandattachthemtothewallwithapinorahookonthewall.Theycanjustsitonthewhitewall.

DenaKahan

DenaKahanUnintended refrains presenteda real challenge:how to identify amotif that youdon't even know is present in yourwork? I foundthisverydifficult.Thesolutionwastoaskotherpeople.However,theideas/themestheysuggestedwereonesofwhichIwasalreadyawareandhadintended.ThisiswhatIcameupwith:- Looking over many years work, the unintended refrain was

that of mortality. It is latent in images of fragility and ofnature,whichhavebeenconsciousthemes.

- Mymark–thewayIdrawandpaintarethetrueunconsciouselementinmywork.Iaimformyimagestolookacertainway,but the actual application of the media shows a personalhandwriting that is invisible to me when I am working, andoften foraconsiderable timeafter themakingof thework. Ithink this personal handwriting is most evident in mydrawings.

InterviewwithDenaKahan,27August2015SandraBridie:Whatdoyoutake‘unintendedrefrains’tobeortomean?DenaKahan:ItakeittomeanideasorimagesorpatternsinmyworkthatIhavenotconsciouslyintended.What was your process in selecting your piece for the exhibition and did you gothroughaseriesofoptionstoarriveatwhatwillbeintheshow?I did go through a few options, I rethought things after meeting with you, but IendedupcomingbacktothesameideathatIhadatthebeginning.Canyoutalkabouttheideasthatyoueliminated?I guess I’ve come to two ideas,which I had early on and therewas a third that Ieliminated.Ididthinkabouttheideaofstyleandhandwritingoftheartist;thatthemarkthatyoumakeis,ataverybasiclevel,somethingthatyoudonothavecontrolover.Yourstyleissomethingthatyoucan’tsee,it’sinvisibletoyoubutisvisibletootherviewers.IrememberatartschoolthatIusedtothinkthatalltheimagesIdidwereverydifferent,butmyfriendswouldsay,‘Ohno,theyareobviouslyallyours’.Icouldn’tseetheconnectingthread,whichprobablywasstyleinmyhandwritingasapainter,orasadrawer.Ithinkdrawingisthemostnakedmedium,it’ssoimmediate,it’sprobablywhereyourhandwritingismostvisible.Couldyousaywhatisdistinctiveaboutyourdrawing,whatarefeaturesthatyoucanrecogniseinit?Thethingis,Icouldn’tactuallydescribeitbecauseIthinkitisalmostindescribable,sometimes I can see it and sometimes I can’t. It is just something about mypersonalitythatisinthere–Idon’tknowhowIwoulddescribeit,Idon’tthinkitisparticularlystylised-ifItrytodrawsomethingrepresentationalfromlifeitstillhasmymarkmaking,soitissomethingthatisreallyintangible,forme.So,wasthereaseriesofobjectsthatyouthoughtaboutfortheexhibitionduringthisprocessofthinkingaboutwhattheunintendedrefrainwas?I thought about, when you first proposed the idea I was going away for an artresidencyandon that residency I dida lotofdrawing, something I normallydon’thavealotoftimetodojustforitsownsake.IwasdrawingthingsthatwereintheenvironmentaroundmeandInoticedIwasdrawingalotofdeadthings.Iwasinthecountryside,soalotofdeadplantsanddeadbirds.Itwastheheightofsummerandeverythingwasverydry,becausetheother idea Ihadaboutanunintendedrefrainwasthatinallmywork,andsomethingthatIdidnotnecessarilyaimfor,butreallyyoucouldseetheideaofmortality,asakindoflatenttheme,itwasn’tatthetopofmymindwhenImadethework.Sothetwoideasofthedrawingandthedeadthings

cametogether!Usually the things that Ipaintarenotdead things,but the ideaofdeathisintheworkandthesedrawingsbroughtupthisideaaboutmortality–Ihadthoughtthat Icouldput inabrokenglassbecauseIpaintglassa lotandit’saveryfragilethingandsoyoucouldseeitassymbolofmortality.SoIthoughtitcouldbeaglassvesseloritcouldbeoneofthesedrawingsofsomethingdead.So what is the piece that you are putting in the show and how would you say itrepresentsanunintendedrefrain?Itriedtopicksomethingthatencompassedboththoseideasofthehandwritingandthemortality,itmaybetooobvious;it’sadrawingofadeadbird.Simple is good if it encapsulates your ideas. The next question is how useful,interesting,perplexingorirritatinghasthisexercisebeenforyou?Wasitanewidea,theideaofmortalityandthemark?IthinkIhavealwaysbeenconsciousofthat,perhapsbecauseIteachartaswell,theidea of style and how it is something that happens in spite of yourself. It is notsomething that my work is about but I have always been conscious that style issomethingunintentionalatthedeepestlevel.Somethingthatyoucan’tgetawayfrom.Exactly, and so I tellmy students, ‘Style is something you do in spite of yourself’,when they say that they are trying to make their own style. It’s an unintendedrefrain in everybody’s work perhaps, except if your work is manufactured bysomebodyandthenyourhandwriting isnotthereanymore. Ihadn’treallythoughtabout that in relation tomywork, butobviously if youhave themesof transienceandfragility; ifyou lookatthe imagessomeonecouldeasily interpretthat intotheworkbut itwasn’t conscious.The things Iwasmore interested inweredesireandthe impossibility of perfection, not as melancholic as that but perfection issomething that’sunobtainable.Controland things like thatare thingsweall strivefor and they are completely impossible. Looking at the images, I could see thatalthoughitwassomethingthatwasnotintendeditwassomethingthatalmostasanoutsiderIcouldreadintothatworkifIwantedto.Especiallyasitwasrecentandyouhaven’tdrawnforawhile,soIimaginethatcouldhavebeeninterestingtolookattherecentwork.Yes, itmadesomethingobvious thatwasperhaps lessobvious thanthepaintings Ihavebeenmakingthatarebasedonglassmodels,botanicalmodelsofplants.Soyourpaintingsarerepresentationsofrepresentations.They are, but they are also about preserving something, permanence andimpermanenceandtheyaresymbolsofbothmortalityandofimmortality.

I findthemelusiveaswell,youreyesslipacrossthesurfaceandyouarecreatingaconfusingspace,butinfactyourdrawingsareveryintact,simpleandconcrete.Haveyouthoughtthat?No,Ididn’tthinkaboutthat.WhenIpaint,thedrawingistheunderdrawing, justastepping-stonetomapoutthepainting.It’sschematic.WhereaswhenIdrawfromlife–plustheinitialdrawingforthepaintingsisstraightontothecanvasandisdonefromaphotograph.It’ssomethingthatisblownupfromsomethingverytinytoverybig.Youarecreatingperplexingspace.Iamcreatinganunrealspace.WhenIdrawfromlife–inawayitisnottypicalofmywork, the drawing, so I don’t know if it is an appropriate thing to put in, but it issymbolic rather than typical.When Idraw from life the tensionbetweenstyleandsubject,becauseyouaretryingtorepresentsomethingthatisactual,asitlooks,butyourstyleisstillyourstyle.Inawaythereismoretensionbetweenthesubjectandthe technique.When I amcreatingamore imaginativework,perhaps there is notthattensionbecausethedrawingisaservanttoastylethatismoredominant.Doesthatmakesense?Ithinkyouaretalkingaboutthesurfacewithyourpaintingswhereasyouaretalkingabouttheobjectinthetwosmallinstancesofdrawingsthatyousentme.

JamesMorrison

JamesMorrisonUpego2015ReasontheseobjectsconstituteanUnintendedRefrainThis drawing is an intended refrain continuing on from a longunintendedrefrainofusing imagesofmyfather inmywork.EversinceIwasfifteenandstartedwantingtobeanartistIhaveeitherusedacopyfromphotographsor includedhiminanotherguise. Istartedtodraworpainthimfrommemoryandthenhehastakenonanewguisebutinmymindstillmyfather.InmostofmyworkIoperatewitha castof characters, eitherbasedonpeoplearoundme, friends or someone I have read about. In amongst this, myfatherhasgenerallyoperated,Ithink,asakindofmoralcompass,to balance out the other characters in the work. Because thephotosareofatimetheimagecanlookwooden,likearelicthatisthe likenesses of him taken from photos, whereas when he hasnewguisesandIamusingamemory,hischaracterisstillliving.

InterviewwithJamesMorrison,20August2015SandieBridie:NowJames,whatdoyoutake‘unintendedrefrains’tobeortomean?JamesMorrison:Well Imust admit that I hadnever really thought about it until Iheardfromyou,soitwasacompletelyunknownquantity.Imadeitup(laughs).Itisnotaphenomenon!Itwillbefromnowon,Iwillbeveryconsciousofit.Whatdidyouunderstandmetomeanby‘UnintendedRefrains’?I guess aspects that keeppoppingup – not in everywork youdo – but that keeppopping up without you realising it, or something that you keep falling back on,somethingthatyouuseveryunconsciously.Andthatyouarenotawareofyourselfdoingandthatyouarenotawareofbeingthereinyourwork,inaway.Ofcourseyouareconsciousofusingit,butit’snotuppermostinyourmind–itisnotpartoftheconsciouscontent.Whatwas theprocess for you to select something for the exhibition,were thereanumberofoptionsthatyouwentthrough?Yeah, Ididgothroughquitea fewoptionsandmostof themwerethings that justkeptpoppingupthatwerekindofobviousandnotparticularlyinteresting.Theyare‘crutches’;Isupposeyoucouldcallthem.Whatkindsofthings?Botanicalthings;suchthingsthatrecurinmywork.So things that a viewer would observe if they saw two exhibitions of yours, theymightthink,‘thisisJames’sstyle’,thekindofsubjectmatterthatheusesalot.Whatthenisthepiecethatyouhavechosentoexhibit?It’sfunnyIusedtoconsciouslyuseimagesofmyfatherinmywork,foralongtime.Ithinkhestilldoesappear,butitisalmostdilutednow.Becauseyourfatherdiedwhenyouwereyoungerdidn’the?Whatagewereyou?Eleven.EvenwhenIwasattheVCAIusedtomanagetopainthimintopaintingsanddodrawingswithhiminthem.Soitwasawayofrememberinghim?Iguessso,Iamnotreallysure.Ihaven’treallyanalyseditassuch,butIguessitwas.Andsoyouhavenotputhimintoyourworkforawhile?Well, funnily enough about a year ago, somebody in the family was visiting myhome, shewas talkingaboutmydadand said, ‘Oh,haveyougot aphotographof

your dad?’ And I said ‘Yeah, I have got a few, but they are just packed away in adrawersomewhere’,butIcouldn’tfindthem.Theywerewellpackedaway.Thenshestartedsaying,‘Wellyoushouldhavethemout.Youshouldhaveaphotoofyourdadaroundthehouse,foryourdaughter.’ThenIstartedthinkinghowIusedtoactuallyusetheminmywork.ThenIdidgetaphotooutandIthoughtnow,well,Iwillbringhimbackintotheworkmoreasanactualimage.Soyouprobablyconsciouslyfirstandthenlessconsciouslyusedhisimageearlieroninyourworkandnowyouarewantingtorevisitthatandconsciouslyinserthimintoyourworkasakindof‘intendedrefrain’.Sortoftopickupthethread,Iguess.Sohowinteresting,usefulorperplexinghastheprocessbeenforyou?It’sfantasticallyuseful;Iwasreallythrilledtogettheinvitation.Ittookmeawhiletogetmyheadaroundwhatanunintendedrefrainwas.Good.Iliketoaskdifficultquestions.ItriedtoGoogleitandthenitjusthitme.Yep,itisnotthere.Ithought,‘wow!Thatisit,itisanUnintendedRefrain.’Yes,itisofitself.Imayevenhavecoinedthephrase,whoknows?Iamwonderingwhetherthereviewingofyourworkwentfromasuperficialleveltosomethinga littledeeper.Or lookingatcontentormotifsthataremoreevidentonthesurfaceandusedoveralongperiodoftimetorequiringyoutosiftthroughandgo back in time to find something that had a bit of gravitas, or was useful andmeaningfultoyouratherthanjustaneasysolution.Orinfact,didyouquicklydecidewhatyouwantedtofocuson?Ididquicklycometoit;itwasalmostsomethingthatwasonthetipofmytongue.Itjustslottedinveryquickly.So,asidefromthisproject,youhadbeenthinkingaboutreinsertinganimageofyourfatherintoyourwork.Andsothisisanopportunitytotalkaboutit.Yeah.Andhowistheimageofyourfatherinsertingitselfintoyourworknow?At themoment? Ithasn’t reallyhappenedasyet. Itprobablywillgoback tohow Iusedtodoitwithjustafiguresomewhere,quiteliterally.Basedonaphotograph?

Cynthia Troup

Cynthia Troup Child’s hand-painted china tea set … new in the early 1970s Reason it constitutes an Unintended Refrain This china tea set was my toy during the first six or seven years of childhood. With its tiny milk jug, matching saucers and cake plates, the set has miraculously remained almost complete, surviving now many changes of address and circumstance. For this exhibition it represents the unintended refrain of the female child—a figure that surfaces variously but insistently in my creative writing of the past twelve years. She can be unruly. She can be elusive. Yet I notice that she’s usually evoked with compassion. Certainly I feel a tenderness when contemplating the tea set and the strictures of feminine propriety that it can be said to reflect—in its material, in the delicacy of floral decoration, in its domestic, relational function … . Sometimes the girl-child appears in my works as part of a dyad; as a sister, a daughter. She’s in attendance, implicitly, wherever fairy tale and rhyme are at play. In my most recently completed work, the script Undercoat: A Parafoxical Tale, she seems most present in the question, ‘How is it possible not to love that which has saved your life?’

InterviewwithCynthiaTroup,24August2015 SandieBridie:Whatdoyoutake‘unintendedrefrains’tomean?CynthiaTroup:Itakeittomeansomekindofrecurrencyinthecreativeworkthatisquiteclearuponreflectionoruponinvestigationbut inamidstthecreativeprocessisn’tnecessarilyconsciousasachosenthemeormotif. Inasense, theopportunityyou have created through your curatorial vision for this show has been that ofalertingmetothevalueofreflectingonabodyofcreativeworkfromquiteadeeplypersonal perspective and tuning in to what I can see are quite a number ofunintendedrefrains.Whatwasyourprocessinselectingapieceforthisexhibitionanddidyougothroughanumberofoptionstoarriveatwhatwillbeintheshow?Toanswerthesecondpartofyourquestionfirst,IreallyjustsettleduponthesecondideathatIhadforselectingthepiecetorepresenttheunintendedrefrainthatIhavechosentoshareaspartoftheexhibition.Iguesstocomebacktothequestionoftheprocess,itdidn’treallytakemelongtochoosetheunintendedrefrainthatIwantedtoaddress.So itwasquiteeasy foryoutostepbackfromyourprocessandprojectsandgleanacrossthemtodecide?Whenyou sentaround theemailof invitation Ihadbeen reflectingon something,notconnectedwithmycreativeworkbutsomethingmorebroadlyinlife,anditjustentered my mind straight away as something I would look at as a possibleunintendedrefrain.The fact that itwassospontaneously there inconnectionwithyourproposalmeantthatIhaven’tleftthatideabehind.Soforme,theunintendedrefrainisthefigureofachild,insomeway,throughmany,manydifferentworksofcreativewriting.Isitthefleetingglimpseofachildorthefactthatoftenthechildisthesubjectofthework,theprotagonist?That’s very interesting, because Iwas going to say, in the libretto of the chamberoperacalled‘Turbulence’,mystrongdecisionaboutthework, inthespiritofbeingclear about the nature of chamber opera writing and its small scale aspiration tooperatic intensity, was to choose and foreground the dynamic of the relationshipbetweenamotherandadaughter.Inthelibrettoitisquiteclearthatthedaughterisenteringadulthood,sosheisatthatspikeyage,somewherebetweenseventeenandnineteen, or so. Butwithin the opera overall, there is this strong sonicmotif of asmallbabyandthemusicologicalanddramaticclimax,insomesenses,ofthewholeopera itself, focuses on imagery of the baby as sung and evoked by the mother

figure.Soitwouldseemtoanoutsider-havingdecidedtoforegroundthedynamicof the relationship between amother and a daughter – it is quite clear there is achildthere,butIwassoconsciouslyfocussedonhavingasenseofthatdynamic,thedyad,thatIwasn’treallyasclearandappreciativeoftheimportanceofthefigureofthechilditself.Andthechildisalwaysafemale,inyourmind?Yes, indeed through all of the iterations of the unintended refrain that I havemanagedtoidentifyinmycreativework.Infactallofyourcharacterswouldbefemale,withoutexception.Withoutexception,thinkingonmyfeet,Ithinkyouarecorrect.Anotherunintendedrefrain!Erring on the side of the feminine or female. It is interesting, because onemightimaginethatanunintendedrefrainmightbedeeplysubterranean,but inthiscase,for me, it is still interesting to look at something that is quite obviously on thesurface, but not something that Iwas placing there in conversationwith previousworks.Idohaveastrongsensenow,asaresultofthisprocessthatthechildfigureisconstantlyinconversationacrossmyoeuvre.Wouldyousaythattheyareversionsofyou?A wonderful question that you actually put to me the other day while we werespeakingaboutthisproject–theyareinevitablyversionsofmyselfasrememberedorasbrought intorelationshipwithmyevolvingadult self,butagain,consciously Iwouldsaythatoftenthereisanamingofthechildasasisterfigureand/orasafairytalefigure.ThereisaveryblurredlinebetweenthatevolvingsenseofmyadultselfinrelationtomypersonalpastandthewayinwhichIworkwiththevastnarrativeheritage connected with childhood, because I would say a connected unintendedrefrainisoftenmyrecourseintotheworldoffairytalesandnurseryrhymesandsoon.Youcansee thatveryclearly in ‘AQuarrellingPair’ that ispartof that triptych‘And then theyweregood’,buteven indeed in themost recentwork, ‘Undercoat’thereisareallyself-consciousrecoursetothewholeliteraryandfairytaleheritageof the fox there and an adult knowing or half knowing playfulness around thatlanguage.Andtheotherthreecharactersareinfactmalein‘Undercoat,’asIreaditatleast.I think I have left it ambiguous in terms of the prescriptive aspects of theintroduction to the performance, but actually in its first iteration, which will takeplace at ‘Explorations’ later this year,wewill have an all female cast.Mind you, I

have certainly thought of aspects of ‘Undercoat’ in the spirit of pantomime in theveryoldfashionedsense.Whatisyourchosenpieceandhowdoesthisrepresentanunintendedrefrain?Justtobringtoconclusionmyresponsetoyourlastquestion,Ihadthoughtoriginallyof a photograph ofmyself as a child – thatwas an obvious thing, but in away, Ithought thatwas too literal and tooobvious and also too self-referential. I like tothinkthatthismotiforthisunintendedrefrainofthechildisalwaysshape-shiftingasmy imaginative and emotional relationship with her transforms and that felt tooliteral.In responsesbyparticipants to thisquestion,a familial figureoften seems tobeattherootofwhattheyarelookingat,sometimesitismoreconsciousthanothers,butat one point I was thinking that the exhibition might comprise a series ofphotographsoffiguresfrompeople’sfamilies.Ihadanimageofthegalleryandthetextonthewallandthenaphotographonthewall,andthenIthought;thereneedstobemoretexture,somethingthathasmoresymbolicandevocativepower.AsImentioned,whatIhaveofferedtotheexhibitionisthisvery,verybeautiful,veryfinechildren’schinateasetthatinspiteofmyhavingmovedmany times inmyadult life anddownsizedmany times todivestmyselfofmany,manypossessions,many,manyvestigesofchildhood,miraculouslythisnearlyintactdoll’schinateasethasremainedwithmeandisnestlinglovinglywrappedinpaperinashoeboxtiedwithalittleribbon.WhenIconfrontthatwiththefewboxesthatremainwithmefrommypossessionsfrompreviousexistences,there’sakindofpoignancy about it. As you said, the mere fact the tea set even survived mychildhoodalmostintactdefinitelybetrayssomethingaboutmychildhoodselfasonewhowasextremelyearnesttoplease,morallyfixatedonbehavingwellandlearningcorrectness,learningetiquette.WhilstIcan’tactuallyrememberanydoll’steapartyperse,Icanneverrecollectplayinginareallychaoticway.Didyouplaywithyoursisterwithit?Iplayedwithmyyoungersisterwithit.There’sasenseofitbeingsomethingthatyouwouldplaywithwithfriendsanditisveryfeminine,thesensethatthegiverisprescribinganimageofwhatagirlshouldbe.Yes.Look,it’sgotpinkflowershandpaintedonit;it’ssuchabeautifulthing.Funnilyenough,Ihavearesidualloathingofanythingballetpinkinmyadultlife.Soyes,itisvery feminine and the imagined behaviours around that sort of toy are veryfeminine.Ithinkit’saboutaneducationinacertainsetofdrawingroomvalues.So

thereissomethingquitepoignantaboutrecollectingthewayinwhichIknowIwouldhavetriedtomeetthetask,what Iwas internalisingabouttheteasetandhowtoplayproperlywithit.Cynthia, you are ten years younger than I am, but Iwould never have been givensomethinglikethisteaset,becausemybrotherswouldprobablybreakit,butIdoubtIwouldhaveplayedwithit,either.Itisaninterestingprojectionoffemininityontoachild. I am sure those projections were cast onto me but not in that way, nor topresumethatdegreeofdelicacyofbehaviour.TheonlyfootnoteIwouldaddtoourconversation,whichissuchalovelylittleforayintothiswholePandora’sbox,isbecauseIwasthemiddlechildlivingathomewithmy twoparents,wheneverwedidplaya gamebetween the threeofus, and thatwasonlyforashortperiodbeforemyoldersistersteppedbackfromthethreepartdynamicquiteearly,butwhenIrecollectthegamesthatweplayedasathreesome,italwaysfelltometoplaythepartoftheboy.Myboy’snameinthosegames,whichweplayedinacubbyhouse,therulesofthegamewerealwayssetbymysister,buttheboy’snamethatItookwasCharles,soIhadasortofflakyalteregowithinthatthreepartdynamicofgirlishplayasCharlesandIwouldweartrousersandIwouldtryandmeetthatrolebybeingtoughandboyish,asdistinctfrommyyoungersister,whowouldplay thebaby andmyolder sisterwouldplay themother figure. It’s akindof interestingtensionbetweenmyselfasownerandprotectorofthispreciousteasetandwhatwehavenowinferredittorepresentandwhat, inpractice, Iwastryingtorole-play.The final question asks about the value of this project – how interesting, useful,perplexingorannoyinghasthisexercisebeenforyou?Ithasbeendeeply interestinganduseful. I thinkyouhavegivenabeautifulname-phrase tosomething that iswonderfully revealing toattuneoneself toas feelingaconnection–agrowthfulconnectiontowithone’screativepractice,asImentionedand probably what you have heard from nearly everyone involved inUnintendedRefrains.Oncethereisanattunementtowardanunintendedrefrainandoncethereisaninterest,therearemanypossiblewaysintothatfromthemoreobvioustothemuch subtler. I think it is a hugely valuable process, I think it is a wonderfulproposition for anexhibition. I think it is slightlydangerous, inmyexperience andscary, in the sense that if I think too much about that and start to create rulesaroundrejectingtheunintendedrefrainthatmightcontinuetoserveyou,ithasgotthatdangerarounditofturningintoameansofself-censorship,whichisimportanttobeawareofatanystageofthecreativeprocess.Youcouldalsosuspectthereisatouchofpoppsychologyoperatingthere–

-Andmaking,inmycase,allofmywrittenworksomekindofmoreorlessobviousexpression of some unresolved self-referential narrative relating past to present,whichIstronglyliketothinkthatimaginationandcreativepracticetransformone’sownexperiencealso,tooneselfandforoneself,theyareameansofreinventingourpresentandourfutureselves.So,Iwouldn’twanttogettooattachedtolookingfortheunintended refrainasawayof cultivatinga relationshipwithmyoeuvre,but Iguesswhatmostly surprisedmewhen I spontaneously hit upon this figure of thechildwasjusthowpresentsheisandalsovariedsheis.ThefinalthingIwouldsayisthatmostlywith all the iterations that I havenoted, there is a tenderness aroundthatimageandIguessthat,inprinciple,Ifindthatquitepositive.

SandraBridie

SandraBridieSandraBridie,b.1965‘AftertheLateWorksofPaulCezanne’(afiction)1999ReasonitconstitutesanUnintendedRefrainIn 1990 my mother contracted viral encephalitis, leaving her with long andshort-term memory loss and without geographical orientation. Herrehabilitationwasaprocessof relearningdailyandcreativetasks,and indeedtheevents,placesandpeopleinherlife.Formerlyanavidpainter,sheneededtorelearnhowtouseoilsandwatercolours.Toreconnectemotionallyrequiredre-inputtingmemoriesviaothersaccountsofeventsinherlife.I have realised, on reviewing the structure and content of the narratives offictionalartistsIcreated,especiallybetween1996and2007,thattheyformallyand often thematically mirror the events and my response to my mother’sillness.These fictions, whose protagonist bears my own name, Sandra Bridie, eachinvolvearuptureinthelifeoftheartist.Thecharactergoesthroughastrikingtransitionfrombeingconfidentandoftensuccessfulintheirartisticcareer,toajuncturewhereacrisisormalaise forces themto reassess theirbelief in theirvocationasanartist.Sandra Bridie, b.1965 ‘After the Late Works of Paul Cezanne’ (a fiction) isexemplaryofsuchanarrative.Theartist’slifeissplitbetweenbeforeandaftera car accident where she, as driver, is culpable for the deaths of threeindividuals.Riddenwithguiltanddeprivedherofmanualabilitytopaintduetoinjuries,shelosesconnectionwithhervocation’smeaning.Sandramustrelearnhow to be an artist through the painful and painstakingly slow process ofembroidery through a physiotherapy program in rehabilitation; slowlyembroidering images of pages from a book on Paul Cezanne onto tapestrycanvaswiththread.

InterviewwithSandraBridiebyCynthiaTroup,27August2015CynthiaTroup:Whatdoyoutake‘unintendedrefrains’tobeortomean?Sandra Bridie: For myself, I took it to meanmotifs that are present in an artist’spractice–mypractice,thatarerepeated,butthatIamnotawarethatIaminsertinginto thepractice. Things that I think thework isnotabout,buton reflection I seethatiswhattheworkmaybeabout.ThingsthatIthinkmaybeIsoughtoutinsomeotherrealmofmyexistence,suchaspersonalrelationships,interests,etc.thatartisnotprivyto,Ifindmanifestthrougharepetitionorapervasivenessinmypractice.Andwhenyouarereflectingonyourpractice,isthatoverthelastthirtyyears,orthepastdecade?Iamthinkingoverthe lasttwenty-fiveyearsandofobservingrecurrencesthatyoucanonlyseeretrospectively.IalwaysthinkthatIamprettyawareofthesubtextofmyworkwithinthefictionsthatIcreate,mypersonalsubtextthatIamnotmakingavailabletotheviewer,eventhesubtextwithinthefictions–thereisareasonwhyIammaking theseworks, thenwithin the fiction theviewercansee things that thefictionalprotagonist/theartist isunconsciousof, ifyouseewhat Imean.Therearetwolevelsofmeaning.Soyouaretalkingaboutlayersofintentionalityandthenaretrospectivediscoveryofsomethingunintentionallypresent,aswell.ThereissomethingthatIwasunawarethatIwasmakingknown.Whatwas your process in selecting a piece for the exhibition, and connectedwiththat,didyougothroughanumberofoptionstoarriveatwhatwillbedisplayed intheshow?NotnecessarilythatIwentthroughthisprocessofselecting,buttherewasanobjectrelatedtoaphysiologicaleffectthatismanifestinmyworkthatwouldhavebeenaniceobviousthingtotalkabout,thatwouldbeapairofglasses.Thiswouldlinkintothe idea of my fictional walking artists who walk in the shape of infinity. Thisconnection goes back to the eye exercises I did as a small child where I wasinstructedtofollowwithmyeyesahandSootypuppetheldbytheophthalmologist,whowas treatingme fora squint inmyeyes. Ihad theseeyeoperations fromtheageoftwotocorrectacrookedeyeandworeglassesfromthatage.Thereforetheform of the frame of glasses, two joined ellipses, has been something I am veryinterestedin.Inaway,Iammoreinterestedintheframeitselftowhatisinsideit.Justsosomeofuscanunderstand,whatisaSootypuppet?SootywasonthetelevisionwhenIwasachildinthesixties. IthinkitwasaBritishprogram that had a little glovepuppet bear, so the reference is completely ofmy

generation and clearly not transferable. So the frame was something that wouldhavebeenaniceon-the-surfacethingformetotalkabout,thenthesecondobjectIthoughtof showing, is probably toopersonal and then the third choicearticulateswhat the second object is aboutwithout it being an emotional object. So I had achoiceoftwoobjectstodepicthowanunintendedrefrainmightmanifestitself.So,justtorecap,yourfirst ideawastheglasses,thenyouhadanotherideathat, inconsidering it, itmadeyoufeelabitvulnerable,andnowyouhavecomeupwithathirdideawhichyouaregoingtocontributetotheexhibition.Sothattakesusdirectlytoourthirdquestion,howdoesyourchosenpiecerepresentanunintendedrefrain?OK,somyunintendedrefrainislookingovertheformalstructureofmyfictionseversinceIstartedusingmyownnameformyfictionalartistsandusingtheinterviewasthe narrative device, since 1996. The form of the fiction has always involved arupture takingplace; the fictional artist SandraBridiebeginsprettymuchknowingwhat she is doing and has her path laid out for her. Something happens whichcompletely disrupts this neat trajectory. There is usually some form of dramaticjunctureinfictioninageneralsense,butmineusuallyinvolveaneventthatutterlydisturbs a sense of future progression and ease with the protagonist’s practice;throws it into disarray, often this is followed by a malaise setting in. Finally thepiecesarepickedupandthefictionalSandra’spracticecontinuestentatively,thoughit is not certain that the artist will continue. There is a pervasive sense of doubt,whichisovercomeonlytoadegree.IntheparticularpieceIhaveselected,SandraBridieb.1965,‘AfterthelateworksofPaulCezanne(afiction),thisisastoryofawoman,SandraBridiewhoisdoingfairlybanal,romantic,paintingsandpasteldrawingsinthestyleofcertain1980sartistsinMelbourneandhasmadeabitofanameforherself.Sheisdrivingacaronholidayson the east coast of Victoria, has an accident and is responsible for the deaths ofthreepeople;twopeopleinthecarshehitsandonepersoninherowncar.Thereisacourtcaseandsheisabsolvedfromculpabilityforthedeaths,butphysicallysheisa mess and emotionally she is a mess. After the accident, Sandra is unable tophysically continuewithherartpractice fromwhere she left itdue to injuries shesustained to her hands and needs physiotherapy, but she still needs to somehowmaintain her conception of herself or identity as an artist. She devises with herphysiotherapist a project to embroider some tapestries,where shewill be able torebuildsomefinemotorskills.Tocreatetheimagestoembroider,Sandraphotocopytransfersontotapestrycanvasreproductionsfromabookcalled‘TheLateWorksofPaulCezanne’.Thecanvassesareimagesoftheactualpagesfromthebookincluding

thewhitespacearoundthereproducedimages.Ofcourse,sheisunabletofinishanyofthecanvasses,whichareoffineweaveusing3-plyembroiderycottontodopetitpoint,duetothedifficultyofhandlingthetapestrythreadandneedle.Fortheexhibition,Iamgoingtoshowonecanvas,‘TheLastMotifsatAix’,alongsidethe small catalogue/publication containing an interview with the artist andreproductionsofallofthetapestriesfromtheseries.Howthisworkrepresentsanunintendedrefrain–whatitisechoing–isessentiallywhathappenedtomymotherwhenshecontractedencephalitis in1990andasanecho to that, what happened tome as far asmy own sense of confidence inmypractice went, when that happened. Also, the story includes the process ofphysiotherapymymotherwentthroughduringrehabilitationaftertheencephalitiswhereshesufferedsomebraindamage.Priortothisshehadbeenahobbyistasanartist,painting inastyleofpainterlyabstraction.Withtheencephalitis,her formerself ceased to exist and we didn’t knowwhat the new self would be, except shesurvivedthetrauma,just.Shehadtore-inputmemories,andphysicallyrelearnhowtodoeverything,includinghowtopaint.Itwasallstep-by-step.Itwasonlyaftercreatinganumberofworksandlookingattheformthatmyfictionsseemtotake–theyseemtoneedthiscrisis,thishappilygoingalongandthenbang-that I realised that, in fact, the thing that I thought Iwas copingwell against,wasbeingiteratedoverandoveragain intheform,andthecontentIwouldsay,ofmyfictions.TheCezanneworkisthemosttraumaticandtragicofmyfictions.Whendoesthatparticularworkdateto?Itwas1997,theembroideryworkswereshownatanexhibitionatFirstFloorArtist’sandWriter’sSpace.So Iamshowingoneofthetapestries,which Istill love. Itwasthestrangestwork,theoddestartisticoutcome.IguessIhavebeenthinking,whileyouhavebeencandidlysharingyourreflectionsonthisunintendedrefrainthat,yes,thereisthemotifofthetrauma,butanotherwayofconsideringitisthatthereisthemotifofsurvivalasacreativeindividual.Just, yeah, but it’s never with the same sense of conviction, it’s always with thequestionmark.It’slikedoubtinareligiousvocation,doubthassetin.So Iamwondering,asa fourthquestion,how interesting,usefulorperplexinghasthisexercisebeenforyou?Formyself, it’sbeenaknownquantity; Iknewwhatmyunintendedrefrainwas. Itstruckmeawhile ago inmy interviewingof artists that sometimes the thing – themotif,thematerial,thecontentoftheirwork,thatseemsmostobviousabouttheirworktomeastheinterviewer,isthethingthattheartistdoesnotseethemselves,

eventhoughthistrope,motifortechniqueisbroughttotheforecontinually.Asfarasthecurationofthisexhibitiongoes,ithasbeenwonderfulformetoseethepick-up from artists, to see how relevant and interesting it is for participants, andannoyingtoo. It isgreattoseethelifeofan idea,howitcanbecarriedforth insomanyinterestingandvitalways.Sodoyouthinkthatcuratingtheshow,inasense,wasawayofyouhonouringtheinsightthatyouhadaboutyourownpractice?Possibly,yeah, I thought itwasan interesting idea,but it isproblematicbecause itbrings biography into it, and that was something that people have resisted. Ofcourse, Ialwaysusebiography inmyworkwith theartistas theprotagonist inmyfictions. So I am interested in all thedifferent versionsof the artist’s life andhowtheyaredepicted,andhowthatplayswithideasoftruthandverityandmythologyandfalsehood,Ilovethequestionsthattheformofbiographybringsup.My impression is that youarealso fundamentally interested innarrativeand inanart practice that is always experimenting with new interventions in relation tonarrative–eventheideaofthetapestries,noneofthembeingfinished–thereseemstobethismotifaswell,connectedwiththelargeroneofuncertaintybeingexpressedbystraythreads,unfinishednessinsomeway.Yeah,andaninterestinthelesserartist,thehobbyist;thoselevelsintheartworldhierarchy.Iamnotsointerestedinsuccess;Iammoreinterestedintheuseofartinthelifeoftheeveryperson,ademocratisingoftheartist.Or indeed, the ideaofartasessential toa lived life in thebroadestsense,which isveryprofound.ThankyouverymuchSandraBridie, Iamgoingtonowaddafurtherquestionthatyouhavenotaskedtheartistsinthisshow,butperhapsyourownreflectionsonthisrecordingwill help you introduce the show in someway or just gain some furtherclarity.Curatorially,howdidyouconvertyourinsightaboutyourownoeuvreorthearcofyourownworkoverthelastthirtyyears,let’ssay.It’snodoubtoneamongstmany, many cumulative insights. How did you convert the one that you havedescribedinconnectionwiththeunintendedrefraininyourpracticetoasenseofthepossibilitiesforthatrubrictoserveasthebasisforacuratedexhibitionattheGeorgePatonGallery?Alice,who Iworkwith,and Ihadbeen talkingaboutpresentinga seriesofartist’stalksat theGPGand I thought itwouldbe interesting fordifferentartists tocomeandtalkabouttheir‘idéefixe’.‘Idéefixe’isatermthatIhavelong-lovedandIliketorefertoalotofmyfictionalartistsasobsessedwithacertainmotif.WhenitcametoAliceandmeagreeingtocurateanexhibitioneachandcohabitinginthespaceofthe

GeorgePaton,Ithought,whataboutmakingthisideaintoanexhibition?BecauseIhadobservedthisinartistsandfoundthatsometimestheycouldnotrecognisewhatwasmanifest toothers, I thought,well, Iwould love tohavea showbasedon theideaoftheartistandtheidéefixe.ButwhenIGoogledtheterm,itcameacrossasapathology, like a stalker or amurderer’s fixation – lots of grisly crimes have beencommittedbypeoplewhohavean‘idéefixe’.SoItriedtolookforotherwordsanddefinitionsthatmightsuitthisideathatIhadofarecurringmotifthatyoucan’tsee.Icameacrosstheterm‘leitmotif’formusic,whichismoreofaconsciousrecurringmotif. The leitmotif, allowed my concept for the show to include a gentler,rhythmicalcircularity,butIparticularlywantedtotalkaboutsomethingthatwasnotconscious, that was unintended. That’s why I lit on ‘unintended refrains,’ which Ithought was quite an awkward phrase, but it was the only choice of words thatwouldsit together thatheldmy intentions. I think theawkwardnessallows for theconsciousnessinwhichpeoplehaveengagedintheproject,becausethetwowordsdon’tnecessarilysittogethernaturally,andsoitrequiredparticipantstothink:whatisthisandhowdoIapplyittomywork?Ithinkthetermisactuallyself-explanatoryinsomeways,butyoustillhavetograpplewiththeseeminginbuiltconundrumwithit.Doyouthink?Howinterestingtohearyouspeakabout it.Because I thinkthephrasehasa lovelymusicalityand Iguess, inmyownexperience, itwasn’t somuchaconundrumasaproposition. It does give the sense, onemight say of a Foucaultian sense of therebeingsomearchaeologicalworktobedoneinordertobeabletocontributetotheexhibition, going through the layer of intentionality to search, so a little bit ofdigging. I think I recollect correctly that you were mentioning the other day thatpeoplehaveactuallyrespondedonmanydifferentlevelsandnotallwithrespecttoabiographicalnarrativewiththeirartpractice.But they are all beholden to the term; ‘refrain’ hasbeen interpretedas ‘desist’ aswellas‘repeat’,and‘unintended’hasalsobeenturnedinto‘intended’;peoplehavelookedatwhat isunintentionalandrecurs in theirpracticeandnowthey findthattheychoose,ornowintendtokeepthesequalities,materials,habitsofpracticeorprocessesintheirwork.Ithasbeeninterestingpeopletalkingabouthowusefulthatterm has been, to look at rhythms of themes, motifs, materials, processes – it isgoing to be manifest in all of the ways that an artist will practice, from theconceptualisingtothephysicalmakingofwork.So in away, it has been a proposition thatworked as something quite open for avarietyofpeople,whichiswonderful–that’sthebestkindofproposition. Iamjustthinking in relation to something you saidamomentago, thatmaybeby virtueof

people being involved with this show, and having had the opportunity not to justconsiderthepropositionbutalsothendiscussitwithyouthroughtheinterviewpartof the project that for some people it’s a future-oriented proposition, because ifsomethinghasbecomeconsciousorsomethinghasbecomearticulate inrelationtotheir practice then it’s like they have shone a torch on this refrain and now theywould like tograpplewith itdirectly,name it,own it, seewhathappenswhen it isdug up from the archaeological layering of their work and their historywith theirwork.Yes,wehavespokenaboutthat.Itisachoicewhethertoornotto,butitleavestheoptionopen.Itislikeaskilllearnt;youcanapplyitwhenitmightbeuseful,orleaveitwhenthereisnoneedtoapplyit.Iwasthinkingatthatlevel,youhavegivenpeopleagift,inaway.Actually seeing theworks in thegallerywill seem likeChristmas, I think.Seeingallthedifferentcuriousobjects, that’swhat I like inanexhibition,notexcellence,butobjectstobecuriousabout.

SeanPeoples

SeanPeoplesUntitled2010ReasonitconstitutesanUnintendedRefrainI thought about it a lot, but I still feel like my refrain is elusive.Squishing,squashingandflatteningistheclosetIcame.I’vechosenan unfinished object I was working on 5 or so years ago. It’s acomposite of many different materials; wood, plaster, resins,plastics etc. If the work were complete it would have a smoothmulticolourmarblefinish.Ithinkitsymbolisesacontinuedattemptthroughout my practice to arrange diverse and often numerouscontentintoalogic(evenifsomewhatabsurd).Thereissomethingscrapbook-likeabout it too - laying informationout, connecting ittogether,arrangingitinmeaningfulways.

InterviewwithSeanPeoples,21August2015SandieBridie:WehavealreadymetuponcetobroadlydiscussUnintendedRefrainsand I presented my ideas about what I would do as a participant in UnintendedRefrains,butSean,whatyoutake‘unintendedrefrains’tobeortomean?SeanPeoples:Ihaveanideaofwhatitmeanstome,butIthinkthathasbeenlargelyinformedbyconversationsthatIhavehadwithyou;lookingforthatthemeinyourpractice that is recurring, that you are not necessarily aware of. It has beeninterestingformetothinkaboutthisidea,becauseIcanfeelthesewildlydifferentshifts with my practice over the years. Of course, I also have my collaborativepracticewithVeronicaKent,sothereisthisotherdimensionanditfeelslikethereisapressuretoreconcileall thesedifferentaspects.So,there ismypracticethathasdifferentpartsinmypastandalsothiscollaborativepracticeandIneedtoworkoutwaysthattheyallfittogether.And youwould be interested in hybridity of practice, Iwould imagine – keeping itmoving in various directions rather than just moving incrementally around a stillcentre.Yes, I think somepeoplehave that focus, really exploring something reallyminuteand pushing it and pulling it in all sorts of little directions. Forme, I can come tosomekindofresolutionofsomethingthatIfeelisalittledifferentthanwhatIhavedonebefore.Inasense,whenIammakingitIcouldtakeitthiswayorthatwayandall these sorts of different ways, but then when the work is actually done and isinstalled, I am already thinking about something almost the opposite, somethingreallydifferentagain.As a kind of counterpoint – you have set up that problem, you have found aresolutionandnowitistimetomoveontosomethingelse.I suppose it has something to do with whether you havemore of a studio-basedpracticeoraproject-basedpractice,becausewhenyouhaveastudio-basedpracticeyou are making things all the time regardless of the fact that you may have anexhibitionorshowcomingup.Youengageintheprocessofmakingmore?Yeah,andIfeelthatparticularlytheworkthatIdowithVeronicaandtheworkthatIdo for my solo stuff, it is always for a project or something in mind, you aredevelopingsomethingparticulartothat.Sothen,whatwasyourprocessinselectingapiecefortheexhibitionanddidyougothroughanumberofoptionstoarriveatwhatyouhavechosentobeintheshow?

OK,Ihadagomyselffirstwithoutnecessarilylookingatmypastwork,pastprojectsor anything like that, just thinking inmy headwhat those thingswere, seeing if Imyself could work out any of those connections or themes that were runningthroughthem.ThatwaswhenIhadthatchatwithyouandVeronicacameup–wethought that Veronica would be a good person to ask, as she is one of the fewpeoplefamiliarwithmypracticeallthewayfromartschooltillnow.Wejusthadabriefconversationoveremail,basically.So,shedidn’tactuallyphysicallylookatyourwork.Yeah,andIkindofdidthesame,too.IcanrememberalotofmypastprojectsbutIdon’t necessarily have documentation of all of those things, they just exist asmemoriesnow.ThesameistrueforVeronica;shecanjustremembersomeofthoseprojects. And so, what was interesting with Veronica, was what she mentioned,whichwas about screens and flattening out. I hadn’t really thought about that inrelationtomyownworkbeforeandsoIspentafewweeksthinkinguponthatidea–the ideaof flatteningout,buteventhat ideaofsquishingandsquashinghadmoreresonancethemorethatIthoughtaboutit.So you mean taking something away from its original form by compression ormanipulationofsomesort?Yeah,inamaterialsenseandaconceptualsenseaswell.CanItalkabouttheobject?Ihavemadesomeobjectsthatareactuallycomposedofhundredsandhundredsofother different materials. I did this rather large sphere for a show at Neon Parcsomething like seven years ago, for a show called Canadian Pharmacy. I basicallymadethisbigspherethatwasawholebunchofdifferentlittleobjectssuspendedinresin–andthentheywereallstucktogetherandthenIslowlysandeditdownlayerby layer until is was this perfectly smooth sphere. It almost had this marbledappearance, so that even though it’s this three-dimensional object, there is aflatteningoutorsmoothingoutofthissurfaceoflotsofdifferentthings.Thethere’sthissquishingandsquashingofthesethingsthataren’tnecessarilymeanttobenexttoeachotherorworktogetherasmaterials.Soyouaredenyingtheirformandfunction.Yes,andthenpushingthosetogether.IamalsonoticingparallelsintheworkIhavebeendoingmore recently,whicharebig, elaborate, 3Dprintedpipe constructionsandthepipesconnectalmost likeanelaborateLegosystem–different foodstuffsandcansandall sortsofobjectsand Ipull themall together intoa singleobject. Ithinkthat issomethingthat Ihavebeenabletoseematerially ina lotof theworkthatIhavedoneoverquiteabitoftime,butalsoinaconceptualsense–theideaofflatteningout.ParticularlywiththeworkthatIhavejustdonenow;Ihavestartedto

think of my work as more of a scrapbook where I am developing a collection ofideas,tryingtoworkouthowtheyallfittogether,layerthemallout,sothatyoucanseeitallinonego.Ithinkthenasyouexplainit,yourworkseemsquiteconsistentandyourapproachisquite incremental,youapplythesameapproacheachtimesimilartosomeonewhopaintsthesamesubjectmattereachtime–thestilllifeorlandscapepainter.But it hasnever seemedobvious tome, it looked sowildlydifferent, even thoughthereissomethingabouttheprocess,itlinksthemalltogether.Andyouneedtoseeeachworkasdifferent.Iwastalkingbeforethat,forme,thereisthisfrustration,IfeellikeIwanttojumpoffandmoveawayfromthethingthat I justdid,butatthesametimeIamdoingthesamethingsthatIjustdidbutinadifferentway.I thinkwehavecoveredhow theworkyouwish to show representsanunintendedrefrain, but beyond the conceptual or process-based approach, what do you thinkthismightmean?Canyousaythatagain?Whatdoyoumean?Well, there isaflatteningout,so Iamaskingwhymightyouneedtoflattenthingsout,orwhymight youneed toamalgamateobjects so that theybecomepartofaseamlessmassandunrecognisable?Iactuallywasthinkingaboutthatonthewayin.Thisisthehardquestion,Iguess.The way that I was thinking about it was thatmaybe it fits in with some kind ofpersonality trait, because the way that I go about things is fairly democratic andeven.Isupposebeingateacherthere’safairness,butitissomethingthatIamveryawareof inmyself because it canbe very difficult to differentiate between thingsthat aren’t necessarily very good or bad or appropriate or inappropriate becausenothingisparticularlyblackandwhite.So it is a kind of a fairness, but also it’s a kind of denying of the integrity of eachaspectorcomponent.Soit’saprinciplethatperhapsdoesn’ttakeintheindividualorthedifferenceofeachindividualpart.Yes.Wasthereacriticalwonderingonyourpartaboutthat?Thatismyworry,thatit isnotacriticalwaytobe,it justevensouteverythingandassumesthateverythinghasanevenfoothold.Evenwhenterriblethingshappen, I

think,ohbut fromsomeperspective forsomebodyelse, this is theright thingthatneedstohappen.Ifinditverydifficulttonavigateinamongstthat.Soyouneedtocreateasenseofhomeostasisallthetime.I think I can see parallels between that, I think it fits nicely within an idea of anunintendedrefrainbecauseitisnotsomethingthatIactivelywanttodo,butIdoitevenwhenIdon’twanttodoit.Soisitthatyouareamenablebutyouarenotrespondingtospecificities?Yeah,Ithinkso.IthinkeventheworkthatIhavedonewithHenriChristo,whoisthisBrazilianguywhoclaimstobeJesusChristreincarnated;Ithinkthatalsofitsintothisidea.Again,heislikesomeotherwayofunderstandingtheworld,byhow‘outthere’heistomanypeople.Itmightbeanegotismthatyouaredrawntoinhim.Maybe, I don’t know, that’s a tricky one. The flip side of that is having strongopinions on things, which can be a really difficult thing, I suppose, sharing strongopinionswithothers.IamalwaysintheprocessofdoubtingwhetherIfeelstronglyaboutsomething,butIadmirethatinotherpeopleandinsomewaysIwantthatformyselfbutitisveryhardtodo.Thefinalquestion ishowinteresting,usefulorperplexinghasthisexercisebeenforyou?I think it hasbeenuseful, because I get the sense that there is alwayspressure intryingtomakesomesortoflinkbetweenwhatyouhavedoneinthepastandwhatyou are doing now. I don’t knowwhere that comes from,maybe artist’s talks orsomething.Ithasbeenusefulinthatsense.Itcouldbeseenas‘biographising’yourpractice.Yeah,whichisareallyweirdwaytothinkaboutwhatyoudo,butyes,Iwasthinkingaboutthattrajectory.Well,IsupposeIamtheculpritherebecauseinsomewaysIseeartassymbolicplay,inpartatleast.Forme,we’vegrownupobviously,butIstillthinkthereisaresiduewherewestillmakethingsinthesamewayachildusesmakingasawaytoexpressthings, to make sense of the world. I think the artist is a person who is able tocontinuethat.Eventhoughasanartistyoumaybelieveyouaregrownupandpastthat,Istillthinkthatartdoesfunctioninasymbolicway,oritcan.Thatjustmademethink,becausemyparentswerequitegoodatkeepingthingsthatIdidasakidandwehavetheselittlealbumsofmyandmysister’sdrawingsthatwedid as children. I supposemyunintended refrainwhen Iwas a kidwas that Iwasobsessed with ‘Where’s Wally’. So almost all the drawings that I did were these

illustrationsofallthesedifferentcharactersallexistinginthisoneworld.Yousayingwhatyoudidjustnow,Icanseethatsamedemocratic–allthesethingsexistinginthesamespace.And the objects have this look of a ball of squashed together; different colouredpieces of plasticine, it’s away of packing it up andputting it aside after you haveconstructedsomethingoutofthedistinctcolouredpieces.Yes,thechild-likethingplasticine–mixingthesandandthesticksallstucktogether.Hasitbeenannoyingforyouatall?Yes,yep,ithasbeenannoying;becauseitisareallydifficultthingtodoandIthinkitis somethingyoucanonly reallydo inconversationwithothers. It is reallyhardtoidentify yourself, it is like a ‘talking cure’ or something – you are in the chair andyou’vegottheanalystorwhateverandit’sonlywiththatotherpersonwheretheycan pick up on things that are taken for granted. It is like tacit knowledge orwhatever– youknowhow to rideabike,but it is veryhard todescribeor talk tosomebodyelseabouthowyoudothatridingofthebike.Ithinkthereissomethingreallysimilarwherethereisthisreallyingrainedknowledgethatdirectsyou,butitisveryhardtoaccesswhatthatthingis.Iamnotsayingthatthisis‘the’thing,Idon’tknowthatitis,itisjustthatIhavedecidedtocomewithatthismomentintime.Ofcourse,anotherday,anotherweek,having resolvedor selected this ‘unintendedrefrain’youmight lookbackatyourworkandpicksomethingelse. I thinkthatyouhave engaged quite actively in the process, whereas you could quite easily havefoundafairlysimpleorpatanswerandnotdelvedintoit.Ithinkfromtalkingtoyouinthisinterviewandinthepreparatorymeetingthatwehadthatyouhaveenteredintoitinacuriouswayevenifithasinfactbeenannoyingorifyourejectityouhavewholeheartedlyengagedintheproject.IamgladthatyouthinkthatSandra.Forsomebodywhoinvitedmeintotheproject,Iamgladthatyouthinkthat.

SophieKnezic

SophieKnezicJamesHallNasmyth,BackofHandandWrinkledAppletoIllustratetheOriginofCertainMountainRangesResultingfromShrinkingoftheInterior1874ReasonitconstitutesanUnintendedRefrainWhat forces account for the peculiar topography of a geologicalform? This question impelled the 19th century inventor andamateur astronomer, James Hall Nasmyth to see in the aging oforganicobjects likeanappleorevenahand,parallelprocessesofgeological transformation. Nasmyth identified the temperaturedifferentialbetweenamolteninteriorandanexternalsurfaceofaplanet to spur the contraction that caused the process ofshrivelling,ofwhich thisdual image isametaphor.Yet the imagealsotellsussomethingabouttheoperationoftime;that it leavesitsmaterialtraceasaneffectonskin.ForthepsychoanalystDidierAnzieu the skin is psychically significant. Skin, as our protectivecovering,mediates our relationswith the externalworld but alsostagesourdefencesanddesires,ourwounds. IfAnzieu conceivessubjectivity in skin, philosophyhas shown that selfhooddoes notexist independently of time. As human subjects we areindissociably linked to the movements of time, Being unfoldingthroughtemporalprocess.

Skinisthemirroroftime.

InterviewwithSophieKnezic,3September2015SandraBridie:Sophie,whatdoyoutake‘unintendedrefrains’tobeortomean?SophieKnezic:WellIguessItookitasyourquitepoetictitlefortheshowthatIknewyou were curating, inviting a number of artists to consider a leitmotif in theirpractice that recurred over a period of time, over their career possibly, thatmayhavebeenconsciousorunconscious.Ireallylikedthatidea,thatitrepresentedsomekind of narrative thread. I did go off after our meeting back in April orMay andthought,what recurs inmypractice that Ihaven’tnecessarily identified? I feel likewhenever Ihavedoneashow ithasalwaysbeenverythematicallyarticulatedandhasadegreeofcogencyspecifictothatshow–especiallysitespecificworksthat Ihavedoneoverthelastfewyears.And in someways you are quite cerebral in theway that you go about yourworkrather than leavingthingsup forgrabs.Youoftenhaveyour rationaleandyoucantalkaboutyourworkatlength.I feel likethereisalwaysarationale, it’sahookor it’sanedgeor it’ssomekindofbounding point. I think that the convention in the twenty first century or latetwentieth century is that artists do need to have these pithy statements on theirpractices and also the whole infrastructure of exhibitions, it requires that – ingalleries through the application process and grants, etcetera, one does have toconstructthislittlestatement,orprofileandonehastobequiteexplicitaboutwhattheworkisandwhytheworkiswhatitis.Ithinkitisjustanoverarchingconditionforthecontemporaryartist. I thinkweareallundertheobligation insomewaytoconformtothat,evenifsomeartistsdon’tnecessarilyhavetheinclinationtowardsthat–thereisacertainfreedominnothavingtoarticulatethings,toallowthemtoemerge through the process of making or through a long apprenticeship in thestudio–anon-verbalrelationshiptoideasandmethodsandmaterialsandsoon.Then your rationale might be about materials or about processes rather thanconceptsorthemes.That’srightandideallyitisaretrospectivesummationofapracticeandIdon’tmeanthatconclusively, Imeanthat foraperiodof time,abodyofwork forexample,asopposed to it being aprescriptive constraint thatonehas to articulate in advanceandthenmatchthepracticetoitsothatitisseamless.Iwouldn’tdescribemyselfasrepresentative of that at all. I think there is always something unknown in anyiterationofworks that Ido,especiallyat the installmoment, thatspaceofmakingultimate decisions that are never necessarily known in advance. There is alwayssomelittleelementthatchangesorsomeunforeseendimensionthatconcretisesat

thattimethatisabsolutelycrucial.That’sthelongwindedanswertotheideaoftheUnintendedRefrains.So,my unintended refrain, I realised is something very profoundly to dowith thenature of surface or skin, epidermis or interface; some kind of membrane thatadjudicatesthespacebetweenaninteriorandanexterior.So what was your process in selecting a piece for the exhibition and did you gothroughanumberofoptionstoarriveatwhatwillbedisplayedintheshow?Didyoulookatanumberofyourworkstoseeiftherewassomethingthatwasoverridinginthem,orconceptuallythatyoucouldseeoryouknew?Itwasn’ta reacquaintanceshipwith theworksphysically,but Ididmentally reviewthemandattempttodistil fromacrossthespreadofpracticesomethematicthatIcould identifyasthis leitmotiforunintendedrefrain. Idon’tthinkthat Ieverreallythought that Iwouldpresentaworkofmyown, I thought Iwould find somethingthatworksasametonymorasynecdocheformywork,sothatit,verylaterallyandthroughanotherperson’svoicemanagestoconveythisconcern.I felt like I found it, quite serendipitously, when I was doing some research on acontemporary photographer – I don’t need to go into that – and there was areference to this imageby JamesHallNasmyth thatweare looking at now in thisspace,whichisanimageofthebackofahandandawrinkledappleanditisstatedassuchthatitwasdonein1874andpublishedinabookthathewrote,publishedin1885,onthemoon.HewasaScottishinventorandengineer–hewasquitefamousforhisdevelopmentof thesteamhammeranddiecastengineering inventions,buthe retired in his late forties and pursued his two passions of astronomy andphotography.Apartfromhisengineeringprowess,heisnowmostknownashavingcreatedthisincrediblyinterestingsetofphotographsofthemooninthe1850sand60s before it was actually possible to photograph the moon. He built his owntelescopeandwasable toviewthemoon,hehadastrong interest ingeologyandthisbookonthemoonwasaspeculativegeologicalaccountofthemoon,thiscosmicentityanditsvariousformsofnaturalforcesandthephysicsthatwouldoperateinhisunderstandingofsurface,suchasheatandvariouskindsofatmosphericforces,etc.Soitwasconjecturalratherthanbasedonfact?Yes, itwasconjectural,buthedidhavephotographsof themoon.Whathedid tocreate these photographs of themoonwas hemade these plaster sculptures andplaster castsof cratersandvarious formsof surfaceand tookphotosof themandthenhecalledthemthemoon.Soitwasthisfabricatedaccountoflunargeologyandthesefalsifiedimagesofthemooninadvanceoftheactualones.

Sodidpeoplethinkthesewereauthenticphotosofthemoon,theythoughtthattheywereoftheactualmoon?Presumably!Idon’tknowaboutthereceptionofthetextinscientificterms,whetheritwasgivencreditinitially,buthecertainlypresenteditassuch–Ifoundthatreallyfascinating.Thisimageinparticularisonewhereheisattemptingtoexplainthroughvisualterms,becauseitisaquitesimplemetaphorofthehandandtheapple,ofthedifferencebetweenageologicalsphericalentitythatisintheprocessofcooling,soithas amolten interior andas theheat is being radiated through the surfaceand isexpelled through that surface, the surface contracts. It’s a kind of thesis oncontractionandexpansionandonthelevelofsurface,whathappens.Essentially,itis just that that surfacecontractsas theheatescapes throughandhencewehavetheformationofthingslikemountainridgesandwrinklesonthebackofahandandtheapple,whichbecomesquiteshrunkenandshrivelled.It’sasignofage.It’skindof reallyobviousandelemental inoneway,but I find it a really compelling imageanditreallycapturesmyinterestintheideaofageorthemarkersoftimeandthisleitmotifofskin-sothetwoofthemcombined–theindexicalityoftimeontheskin,I thought was really captured by both of those. I did pull out a couple of artist’sstatementsIhadmadeonearlierexhibitionsandIseethesereferencestotimeandtoskinandtofluxandmutabilitycomingthroughinallofthem.Youhadn’trealisedhowpersistentthiswas.Yes,exactly,itispersistence.Iguessmypracticeoverthelastfiveyearsasguidedbyastronginterestintransparence,theeffectsoflight,opticality,etc.andbeforethat,veryprocess-based,a cuttingpractice,and interest inabstractionandevenbeforethatJapanesegardens.So,thereareallthesedifferentupperconsciouslayerstoit,but I think the unconscious layer, is this thing about surface and membrane andporosity and time– that’s the crucial thing. In fact, theexhibition I did atKings in2009calledZenJubes,where Ihadthesebiomorphic formsthat Icut - theywerepaper,butIcutandcolouredthem,essentiallytheywereveryfinetracingsoflinesand I modified the images on Photoshop so I had these perfect replicationsexpandinginsizeofthecircularlinesandIdescribedthemasakindofechoingeffectand thatwhen Ipainted themtheystarted tocurlandbehavedifferently towhentheywere flat. I rememberthinkingthecurlingwas likeakindof flakingofskinorlikethelinesthathappenonthebackofahand,itwasthissignofwearandtear,likea responsiveness toanenvironment. It’s skin, it’s surface, it’s theabilityof that totake the indentation of some force like time, or in the case of Nager, it wascontractionofheat;whathappenswhenthereisadifferentialbetweentheheatofa

molten interior – of the process of something becoming igneous and the externalboundaryorborder.SoIamreallyinterestedinthat,timeandbordersandskin.The final question is your response to the process of identifying an unintendedrefrain,sohowinteresting,useful,perplexing,or irritatinghastheexercisebeenforyou?I can tell you in oneword, itwas delightful, because itwas such a tangential andunusualwayofapproachinganexhibitionorcontributingaworktoanexhibitionbyvirtueofthefactthatIdesignatedmyownresponsebythisdecisionnottopresentsomethingIhadmade.SoitwaslikeIsetupmyownkindsofboundsinrelationtoyour response,but I found that reallyexcitingand really liberating. It alsoallowedme to showsomething that Ihave loved, that Ihaven’t seen for sucha long time.BeforeencounteringthisimagebackinAprilorwheneveritwas,Ihaven’tseenthiswork for fifteen years and I remember loving it years ago, so it was thisreacquaintance with something that I find very compelling and relevant –thematically, unexpectedly, serendipitously relevant. So it was really nice to havethatopportunity,Sandie.

Martina Copley

Martina Copley

InterviewwithMartinaCopley,14August2015 SandieBridie:Martina,whatdidyoutake‘unintendedrefrains’tomean?MartinaCopley:IntheinitialtextIread‘attempttoridourselvesof’andIusedthattointerpretUnintendedRefrains.SoIguessItookitassomelumpenthingthatforsomereasonIcarriedaroundunconsciously;ahindrancethatsomeonemightwanttolightentheirloadbygettingridofitoratleastdisidentifyingthemselvesfromit.Andwhatwastheprocessinfindinganobjectthatmightmatchyourideas?Thosearenotmyideas;Igavethoseideastoyou.Myfirstresponsewasinterestedbecause I noticed that my first response was ‘No’. And I thought, how often myresponsetothingsisthat,andIthoughtthisisareallygoodopportunitytosay‘yes’tothisnotion.So,yestothatandthinkonthat,sothat’swhatIdid.Idon’thaveanobject,sothisisapreliminarytoansweringthatquestionabouttheobject.Ithoughtand Iwrote– I’vewritten likesixpagesorsomething–but Ican’t findanobject, Idon’thaveanobject.IknowFreudwouldbethrowinghishandsintheair,howeveritbroughtmetoanunderstandingof…Wouldthesixpagesbeanobject?Ohwell,Ihaveanobjectasauselessprop,IhavemanyofthoseIcouldoffer;Icouldoffer text, I couldofferan intertitle, ifyou like, so I couldhaveanarrative, I couldhaveatextpieceandakindofkernelorsomethingandtheycouldsittogether.Ifeellike no object is a negation and I don’t want to do that; I am talking aboutaffirmationhere,soIdohaveoptions,butmyfirstfocusisthisopenspace,toopenupaspaceforconjecture,Isuppose.Somyquestionwasn’t,whatarethethingsthatIwanttomove;whatarethethingsthatIwanttodisidentifyfrom,becauseitwasn’tbringing me to anywhere interesting, it wasn’t bringing me to any newunderstanding. Somyquestions then started tobe,well howoftendo I sayno tothings?HowdoIsayyestowhatispresented?ThenIstartedthinkingaboutvantageandIthoughtabouthowincertainsituationsitishardtosayyes,andthewaythatIdothatandIamwritingontheasideandIdothat,isthissteppingback?Isthisbeingabletostepbackandseesomethingforwhatit is?Andthenyouhaveactuallygotthespacetosayno, ifyouwant tosayno.So I thinkabout it thatwayand I thinkabout the situations in which unconsciously I don’t give myself that opportunity,howmy attitudes andmypresupposition colouredmyexperience. Then that thenshifts into this notion that is, I suppose, space/time understanding when I thinkaboutrefrain.Ithinkabouttwoaspectsofarefrain,noticingtherefrain,whichislikeapatternthatisarecurrentpattern,acirclingkindofpattern,itgiveasenseoftimeascontinuityandnoticingatthesametimetheaspectsofthatchanging,therefrainchanging,because it isneveraneternal recurrenceoraperfect return.That is the

storythatisconcoctedbytheeyeandtheself.SoIaminterestedinrefrainingthosetwoaspects.It’sveryunclear,butitisunclearstill,itisstillformative.Didyouhaveamoreconcretelookatyourartworktoseeiftherewasanythingthatrepeated itself? Taking a critical distance from your artwork to see if there wasanythingthatwasinsertingitselfintherethatyouhadn’tobserved,thatyouhadn’tbeenconsciousofwhenyouweremaking it?That lookingat theworknow, it toldyousomethingnewbacktoyourself?IguessIhaven’t–IhavethoughtaboutmyworkasthatwhichIdo;it’sthewaythatIthinkandthewaythatI liveandthewaythatIdo,soIdidn’t lookat itthatway,howeverIamlookingatmypatterns,ifyoulike,thatway.SoIcanidentifythingslikepatternsofholdingmybodywhenIsit inmeditation,forexample.Thetendencyistowanttobefreeofthosepatterns;theuseful,skilfulbehaviourwhichisnotaboutchangingasituationnecessarily,becauseIfeellikethat’sfiguredinthequestion,thisidea of getting rid of something, changing the situation, changing understandingitself,butbeingabletositwiththatdiscomfort,ifyoulike,thephysicaldiscomfort.That’s a really niceone to visualisebecause it is locatable in thebody, but I thinkaboutways of behaving, attitudes that are held in the sameway but almost as acolour filter that you might put over a lens, so everything is orange from here.Everythingisgoingtobeorange,itdoesn’tmatterwhereIamlooking,itisgoingtobeorange– that’s inmywork a lot, the ideaof filter or in framingor this sort ofstrategyofpointingtotheframe,ifyoulike.Theheldattitudeistoengenderashiftor to allow thepossibility of a shift ismore in theunderstandingofwhat I do. Sothat’show it relates to thework.That isoneof theobjects I love, aglass filterorsomethinglikethat,itwouldbekindofnicethingtobeinvolvedsomewhereaswell.So,ifyouwentthroughaprocessofthinkingaboutwhatyoumightselectandthendecidingno,whatwerethethingsthatyouthoughtaboutthatwerenotsuitable?Oh,well, this is the thing; I didn’t come upwith any. The object, it doesn’t seemright.Idon’twanttocreatealumpenthing,topresentanobjectasarepresentationofathing Iwanttogetridofbecause Idon’t thinkthatwayand Idon’tworkthatway.Iworkthroughaprocessofattemptingtogiveattentiontothingsastheyare,whichisnotacceptanceanditisnotjustsayingyestoeverything.Butitdoesallowmenot to just instantlynegate if you take just a singular, static viewpoint. So thisidea of something shifting through; so for example, things that I thought aboutwould be chalk marks on a wall, for example, so a gestural object I guess, orperformance, I don’t know what you would call it an object that exists only inrelationship, so there is some elemental vantage involved in the way that youreceive or engage with the object. So then, options come and I haven’t thought

through to that point. I thought it would be really interesting to come to theinterview, and useful and helpful to talk before having actually pinpointed theobject.That’stheprocessofinterest.Havinganabsence inanexhibitionwheremyrequestasacurator isprettyspecificandthereisakindofimpliedobligationtocomeupwithanobject,notbeingabletodothatcouldbeaninterestingresponse.Itcreatesaphysicalpauseintheexhibitionbutalsothatcreatesaspaceforconjectureforthevieweraswell.I findthataverybinaryspace,formethat’saplainnegationandit’sveryobvious;it’slikeasemanticgameplaying.Iamnotinterestedinthat,IaminterestedindoingthistolearnabouthowIfigure.Therefrainisimportanttome,thisideaoftimeascontinuityiscentral,butthenhowtomanifestthatasanobjectisanotherquestion.Sothatwasmyfirstresponsewasthisemptyspace,butno,Iaminterestedtoplayinthatspaceandnotjuststopthere.I don’t know, I wrote some notes; things that I found problematic in thepremise/proposal;toberidofisproblematic-interesting–Ilikethinkingaboutit,tobe ridof,wehave talkedabout that, that ideaof aversionand that there is somepointatwhichyouare– it’s likeananticipatorytime, like livingnot in thepresentbutalwaysinananticipatorytimesothatatsomepointyouwillberight,youwillbeOKandtheworldwillbeOKandwewillallberidofthethingsthat–Likeaprogressnarrative.Yes.And it ties inverymuchwithartpractice, I think,withhistoryandstoriesandfilmandhowweconstructselves,howweunderstandthisideaofself.Sothatwastheother ideathat I findassumed in thepremise; this ideaofourselves,ourartistselves and I have been thinking about that andmy understanding of self. So far Ihavethoughtaboutunderstandingsofself, inanywaythat Imight identifymyself;doubts,fears,capacities–howeverImight–isalreadyold,isalreadyno,isalreadyanorangecolourovereverythingandsoiftherewassomethingthatIwouldliketobefreeof,andthatisnotthephraseIwoulduse,orgetridoforbefree,butiftherewassomethingthat Iwouldreally liketoseeclearly, itwouldbethatorangefilter.ThosenotionsofselfthatIhave,becauseofthestoriesthatIhavetold,becauseofmyunderstandingofspace/timeasbeingsomekindof life livedandcontinuous,athread,wheninfactmyexperiencecanbeopentowhatexactlyisnow,whatIfindnow,butalotofthingsthatholdmebackfromthat–Are you looking for this orange filter rather than wanting to see things throughanotherfilter?Yeah,wellandIsupposetheZenwayofunderstandingisclarityofmind,ifyoulike.Butformeitisaboutprocessesofattention,wheredoyoudirectyourattention.SoI

couldfocusendlesslyonwhatistheobjectgoingtobe.Soaboutthisideaoffilterorvantage,Ithinkbeingabletobeattentivetowhatiscreatingthevantageissortofaskingquestionsaroundhow,andtheyarereallyusefulquestionsformeformaking.Sotheprojecthasbeenusefulforyoutoworkoutwhatyouwant.Theprojecthasbeenchallenginginoneway,butusefulinthatitdidmakemethinkabout how I do approach things with a certain fixed view and I have very strongviews,whichisnottosaythatIdenymyfeelingsandthoughtsaboutthingsbecausetheyareconsidered,howevertheneedthatIseemtohavewhenIstartedattendingtoconversationswhenpeoplewouldproposetometheyare;‘hmmm,Ithinkthis’,or‘No,Ilikethat’andthisI,I,I.Formeitisaveryinterestingandusefulthingtobeable to consider and through this project I seem to be considering this notion ofviewsheldandhowtheyareheld.Sointhatway,Isupposetheideaformewastosetupawayoflookingatwhatyoudoandobservingthosehabitsandaskingyourselfhowusefultheyare,ornot.Ithinktheotherkeywordintheprojectformeis‘intention’–thisideaofintentionand an understanding of just what is intention? In a way, my understanding ofintention is that itdoesgotoattention,whereyouchoosetoattendandhowyouchoose toattend,becauseunintended is reallyunaware,however italso links intothatareaofactuallybeingintheworldandIdon’tknowwhatwordsyouliketouse,but happenstance – just allowing things to come, of being with things instead ofdirectingthings,that’salsoinvolvedinthatword.Thatiskeytoprocessesofthinkingand making, also understanding the sense of time in making, unexpected thingshappenandyetisitstillmemovingthework,movingwiththework.Sothereisthislovely continuity but that is cut. I think about – the empty space that you weretalking about before if I did have no object, I thinkmore in terms of a lapse or amissteporatransitionalspaceoracrossdissolveinafilm.Ithinkaboutthatspaceand it isvery interestingtothinkaboutexhibitionspace inthatway; it’sanominalspace.Iwascuriousaboutthefactthatyouchoseobjectandtext,thatyouaskedforboth and I am interested in the relationships that could occur there, I am veryinterestedinthat.Thereaderlikethewatcher,ifyoulike.Whethertheyareequalorunequal,equalorcancellingoneanotherout.Soagain,itiskindofaliteraryspaceandItendtoworkinaliteraryspace.Ikindoflikethatithassetupaconundrumforpeopleanditisnotaboutanexcellentartwork,itcanbeanything.That’strueandIsupposeIhadn’treallythoughtabouttheprojectthatway;that’sanother outside, if you like; another façadeor another vantage,which is this idea

thatartistsmakeart,artmakesmeaning,thatequationthatisfrightful!Butyes,thewholeprojectasakindoffiguringfromthecurator’sperspective.Yes,youcan’tguessatwhattheresultwillbe.It’snicetosetupaconundrum,whichisungainlyforpeopletodealwithandthentheresultistheresult.Iwouldn’thavecalleditungainly,becausetherearesomanyrelationships;thereistheinnervoiceandthepresentationofwork–theconundrumcouldbeinthatspaceaswell.Sotherearelotsofspacesoftranslationinthisproject.SoIdon’tthinkthat’sungainly,Ithinkthat’sreallyopenandrich.I guess it’s ungainly in that the people I have spoken to, they need to haveconversationwithmetoworkoutwhatthisthingis,orhowtothinkabout it.Theywanttoknowwhatmyintentionsareandsoitissomethingthathasrequiredafirstconversation or meeting before the interview. This is what curating is about, it’sengagingwithpeople,that,forme,itisthepleasureofcurating;theexhibitionisoneoutcome, theother is theseengagements, these conversationsabout thisnebulousthingthatiscleartomebutnotcleartothem.The thinking in thework is interesting, but I do think artists can be lazy, I know Ishouldn’tsaythat,butInoticeatendencyinworkingwithartistswheretheyneedtounderstandwhat youmean, but I don’t feel that that is necessary forme, I don’tneedtounderstandwhatyouintend.Iamhappytoreadthetextthatyousent,itisaconsidered text, Iamhappy to take itand turn itaroundand findkeywords formyselfandfindmyinterestandfindmypointofintersection.Infact,asacurator,Ilove it if artistsdo thatbecause itmeans that I getaprismaticapproach,which isreallywhatitisabout.AndIthinkitisalotaboutpowerrelationsbetweencuratorsandartists,andahabitualpatternaswell.SoyousettheguidelinesandthenIamfree.Butactuallyyouarefreeatthebeginning.Youare,butIthinkguidelinesmakeiteasiertobefree.Yeah,theydo.SothatishowItaketheproposition,itissomethingtobeturnedoverandconsidered.Isupposethekeytomyapproachwouldbenoticingrefrainandthepatternofitschanging.

AaronChristopherRees

AaronChristopherReesUntitledTransient2012ReasonitconstitutesanUnintendedRefrainI chose the print ‘Untitled Transient’ (2012) as it not onlyarticulatesmyUnintendedRefrainperfectly,butitalsorepresentswhat I consider to be a lightening bolt moment within my artpractise which, of course, I unintentionally realised in hindsight.Theclaritywas thatphotographs frustratedme, likemyeyeshadbeen deceived me, or maybe it was all the advertising, all theimages geared at manufacturing ideas of how things are. So IcreatethesedisruptionsandpuncturesthroughwhatI’dcallakindof, forced error processing to construct a void, or a bridge forcontemplation.It’s both an act of defiance against the mediated landscape, theworldaspresentedbytechnical images,butalsoarepresentationofmyconstantrefrainoftweakingperspectivetoofferperspective.

InterviewwithAaronRees,27August2015SandieBridie:Whatdoyoutake‘unintendedrefrains’tomean?Aaron Rees: Before I actually looked it up, the first thing that came tomind wassomethingthatunintentionallyalwayscomesaboutorcomesthrough.Inrelationtoart practice, something that is always just there under the surface or in theworksomehow,thatmaybe,isalmostsubconscious,ifwe’retousesuchaword.Andyoulookeditupasifitwasaterm?Just the two words together - I often do that to see what the Standard Englishdefinitionofthewordis,anditwassomethingthatyouaretryingtogetawayfrom,withtheaddedpiecethatyoukeeponreturningtoit.What was your process in selecting your piece for the exhibition and did you gothroughanumberofoptionstoarriveatwhatwillbedisplayedintheshow?Ithoughtoftwothingsstraightaway,buttoclarify,IspoketoCaitlin–WhohasbeenwithyousincefirstyearinPhotography?And I also spoke toOliviaKoh,whohasalsobeenwithmesince first year,who isalso in the show. But I particularly spoke to Caitlin because she is inmyHonoursyear. They said the same things that I instinctively knew, which were reflectivesurfacesand theotherwasapuncture,which Ialmost takeas thesamething. It’salmosttheoppositeofthereflection,it’saninversion;asuckinginpointasopposedtoreflecting.This is something that you don’t consciously make the work about, or you don’tconsciouslyrepeat;itiseverpresentwithoutyouconsciouslymakingtheworkaboutthat?IthinkthatiswhyIdroppedreflection,becauseIgenerallyconsciouslyusethatone,that’swhy I realised the inversionof it is the thing that isalways left.When Iwasthinkingaboutthisquestion,Ifoundthatwaymorefascinatingtomyownpsyche–it’sineverything,nearly.OK,sothat’sprettypersistent.Sowhatistheworkorthepiecethatwillbeintheshowandhowdoesthisrepresentanunintendedrefrain?It’smy favourite print that I have ever done, called ‘Untitled Transient’. It startedwhen I was just purely looking through the photographic process of concretecompositions, because I was always interested in Brutalism and architecture andspace.So,concreteasamaterial?

Yeah, and then the flattening process through photography, so how it takes alldimensionsnearandfarandturnsthemintoaflatsurface.Iamlooselyinterestedinthismetaphysicalrealmofflatteningthroughtechnology.Andthenjustthroughthisprocessofcontinuallydeconstructingthings,Iendeduprippingitapartandcuttingpartof itandrevealingbehindthepaper. Ibelieveyouhaveseenthiswork; ithasbeenattheGeorgePatonbefore.Yes,soitiscomingbackhome.It’scomingback!It’smyfavouriteanditsitsinmyloungeroomathomeandIalwayslookatitandIrememberthatitwascompletelyunintendedthatitdidthisrevealingthingandIamdoingitallthetimeanditisaveryimportantpartofwhoIam,Ithink.So,whatdoyouthinkitmightmean?Thisistheharderquestion.Thisisgoingtosoundverynaff,likepseudospiritual,butitisdefinitelymetryingtopiercethroughsomelayerofwhateverwetakeasreality.Youcouldsayitislookingfor a sublime or something, but it is definitely trying to puncture a hole throughsomekindofconstructedunderstanding.Ithinkthereisalimittothesestructuresofscienceandwhatnotthatwemake,wherewearejustcreatingourownlanguagetobuild and build, but there is something totally beyond our understanding here. Idon’tknowwhatitis,butIhavethistendencytoturnthingsupsidedown,alteringofperceptionand forme, I amalwaysputtingholes in things,puncturing them tocreatethisbreathingspacethrough.Ithinkitcomesoutoffrustration,actually,alotofthetime.Well,itislikepunchingthewall,it’snotanger?No,a lotof it isacombinationofcuriosityandmaybefrustrationwiththepicturesthemselves,becauseIfindthemreallyproblematic,butIamfascinatedbythem,aswell. Since I can remember, I was looking at National Geographic upside down; Iusedtowatchtelevisionupsidedownaswell.Soit’ssimilartoawritergettingfrustratedatthelimitsoflanguage.Yeah,understandingthroughvision,butmostlycuriosity,Ithink.Andthefinalquestionis,howinteresting,useful,perplexing,and/orirritatinghasthisexercisebeenforyou?I haven’t found it irritating at all; I have really enjoyed it.When you first toldmeaboutit,Ihavebeenreallybusyinthissmallpatchoftime,butthishasbeenareallygoodreflectiveexerciseon,atfirstit’syourwork,butyourworkisyourpsychologyoryourmentallandscapeorwhatever.Soit’sgoingbackandsurveyingorpullingastringthroughyourwork.Iamalwaysopentodelveintothesethings.

CaitlinCummane

CaitlinCummaneConversationwithNancy2013ReasonitconstitutesanUnintendedRefrainConversation with Nancyis the impulse I have to record myeveryday interaction. With cameras, I seek to examine andtransform. This process/desire connects to the large archive ofhome video footage my grandparents and parents havecreated/accumulated. These movements of light formed myintroductiontothespacebetweenexperiencingandcapturing;theinherentlylingeringlongingtorepresent;andthetensionsbetweenhaving, keeping and letting go. The prominence of these‘documents’ in/as my memories is a comfort and discomfort,somethingwhichIbothtreasureandquestion.

InterviewwithCaitlinCummane,1September2015SandieBridie:Whatdoyoutake‘unintendedrefrains’tomean?CaitlinCummane:Well afterour initial conversation, I think I have reconciled it tohave something to do with past experiences and very instinctive, intuitivebehaviours,thingsthatyoukeeponrepeatingorthatareverymuchapartofyourconsciousness without you choosing them, or even wanting them to be. So,operatingverymuchlikedesiresandfears,inaway.What was your process in selecting your piece for the exhibition and did you gothroughanumberofoptionstoarriveatwhatwillbedisplayedintheshow?IreflectedforquiteawhileandinitiallyIwasthinkingofsomethingobject-based.IamverymuchattachedtoobjectsandwasthinkingIhavegotseveralvideocamerasthatIthoughtI’dinclude.Tometheyhaveemotivequalities,butthenIrealisedthatthey probably don’t for other people without my explanations of them, and so Isettledonapieceofvideofootage.So, ifyouwereshowingthevideocameras,howwould theyhavebeenunintendedrefrains?I wanted something that would show time and they do that in the sense of theprogressionofthetechnology;oneistheonethatmyparentsusedtofilmmewhenIwasyoungerandthenthere’sthecamerathattheygotafterthat,whichendedupbeingminewhenthey,not that theygotsickof filmingus,butwhenwegotolderandweren’t as cute andweren’t doing our first things anymore. So that camerabecamemine,andthenthereistheonethatIboughtformyself.So,butstillan‘unintendedrefrain’–istheunintendedrefrainthefactthatrecordingyouractionsisakindofdefaultandthatthereisenoughfootageonrecordforthattobeakindofdefaultwayforyouofrememberingthings.Exactly,a lottodowithmemoryand I think I resentthat factthatthere isa lotofrecordedmemoriesofmewhenIwasyoungerandofmyfamily,butalsotheyarecherished.Oftenmyworkistonegotiatecriticalityandsincerity,sobeingveryawareof theuncertaintyofphotographyasamedium,but thenalso feelingvery sincereandnostalgicwhenitcomestothesedocuments.Reliantonthemtoprovesomethingexisted?Exactly.Whatisthepieceyouwillshowandhowdoesthisrepresentanunintendedrefrain?Thepieceisfootageofmymother,theyarequitespontaneousclipsthatIshotallinsequence, theyareuneditedexcept that theyhavebeenput together– the takes,theywerejustofacandidconversationwewerehaving–actuallyitwasatthetime

that she gave me the video camera, it is quite a few years ago now. I think itilluminates theunintended refrain forme,which is this capturingand recordingofmy everyday experiences and interactions and relationships, because It is quitetelling some of the things she says, to me they are quite poignant and there’s alooseness to it that speaksofakindofunravelling tome that I like.Also, the firsttime I showed thispieceofwork I felt like I hadexpressed something successfullyandmadeaconnection.Andistherecordingofthingshabitual?Doyoubringyourcamerawithyou,oruseyourphoneorwhateverrecordingdevicefairlyregularlytorecordexperiencesortorecordhappenstance?Hmm, everyday. Not all of it I end up showing, but I do probably have a habit ofalwayshavingacamerawithmeandIhavetriedtorelaxthat–Sothatyourlifeisnotadocument.IverymuchwanttobepresentbecauseIvaluerelationshipswithpeoplebutIalsolikethecriticalityofamediationdevice.Howinteresting,useful,perplexingorannoyinghasthisexercisebeenforyou?Very interesting, Ithink, inmakingmeremember,orbeslightlymoreawareofthefact,asanartist,often Iamofthemindsetthat Iamshapingtheworld,whereas Ithinkmoreoftentheworld isshapingme!Toberemindedof thatwasveryusefulandtoconstantlydevelopabetterunderstandingofwhatyoudoandwhyyoudoit,tobecriticalofit.

OliviaKoh

OliviaKohHumayun’sgarden2015ReasonitconstitutesanUnintendedRefrain-AfilmscriptinfivescenesbyArseneyandAndreiTarkovskyEstablishing shot.Aerial viewof a garden; summer.Slow zoom into a cypresstreestandingbythehighrubblewallsofthecompound.Closeshot.Lowangleshot, zoom into grass, red sandstone, andwater channel. Shot in close-up togivetheeffectofalandscape.Inthefirstshotbirdnoisescanbeheard-harshandinsistent–thesedieawaycompletelybytheendofsecondshot.Close shot. The camera tilts for a low angle shot the father standing by acypresstreeandlookingatthewater.Theshotwidensabroadlandscapeofthemanicuredlawn.Theskyisovercast.Heturns,straightensup,turns,andwalksaway from the camera over the paved walkway. Slow zoom from behind tomedium shot. The fatherwalks on.All the time the zoom lens showshim thesamesize.Thefathervanishesintothetrees.Fromoutofthetrees,andcontinuingalongthefather’spath,appearstheson.Gradualzoomintotheson’sface,whichbytheendoftheshotisjustinfrontofthe camera.From thepointof viewof the son.Elevation shotand zoom in: afeatherfalls,circlingdownintothegrass.Closeup.Thesonlooksatthefeather,andthenupatthesky.Hebends,thenstraightensupandwalksoutof frame.Pull focusto longshot thefatherpicksupthefeatherandwalkson.Hevanishesintothetrees,fromwhich,walkinginthesamedirection,appearsthegranddaughter. Inherhandafeather.Duskisfalling.Thegranddaughterwalksoverthegarden.Zoomintoclose-up,inprofile;shesuddenlynoticessomethingoutofframeandstops.Paninthedirectionofhergaze.Longshotanangelstandingattheedgeofthedarkeningtrees.Dusk is falling.Darknessdescendsasthefocusblurs.Aflashconsumestheendoftheroll.

InterviewwithOliviaKohWhatdoyoutake‘unintendedrefrains’tobeortomean?Acompulsiveactionoraconcernre-occurring.Whatwasyourprocessinselectingyourpiecefortheexhibition?Didyougothroughanumberofoptionstoarriveatwhatwillbeshownintheshow?I went over which of my previous works to consider for the show beforerememberingtheimagesthatI’dtakeninDelhiinIndialastyear.Ihadn'tmadeworkabout that experience directly in terms of using source material from the tripalthoughIhadcompiledaswathofphotographs.HowdoesyourchosenpiecerepresentanUnintendedRefrain?In this instance the ‘unintended refrain’ is the image itself. I amprettymuch self-taughtatusingananalogSLRcamera,butinculcatedatthesametimethroughbeingexposedto thedifferent languagesof imagesonthestreets,athomeandschool…Formetheinitialattractiontothesubjectofanimageisintuitivebuttheframingisoftenconsideredmorecarefully.In this instance the content of this image bears the process of capturing I've justdescribed.The image itself isofadetailofthegroundsofagardenPersiandesign,oneofthelargestofsuchinterpretationsoutsideofIran.I'mstandingonaplatformmade of red sandstone raised about sevenmetres, it supports amausoleum thatholdsthecenotaph(anemptytomb)ofaMughalemperornamedHumayan.HisfirstwifewasnamedHamidaBahnBegumandhadthisgardenmadeafterhisdeath.It’sintricately composed in terms of irrigation and architecture. It is apparentlyconceivedof in relation to theparadisegarden in theQuran.Thesymmetryof thegarden attests to this mathematical association with divinity: it is a quadrilateralformation’scalled“Charbagh”,withwater-channelsorwalkwaysthatfurtherdividethe grounds into 36 parts. The water channels seem to disappear under themausoleumandreappearontheothersideinastraightline,whileHumayun’srealgraveisonthebasementfloor.Howinteresting,usefulorperplexinghasthisexercisebeenforyou?Havingtimetoreconsidertheimagehasbeenimportantintermsofreflectingonanintuitive process. The decision to print the image on a towel (polyester/viscosefabric)wasmadeafterIrealisedIhadexposedtherolltwiceerasingaboutathirdofthe image in the frame. I like how the content of the image has re-surfaced - thecapturingofan imprintof light inoneplacehasbeen transported toanother. Themagentatonesoftheimageanditsmaterialitycouldnowappearasluxuriousoratleastpleasing;butthatessence isonedifferentfromtheexperienceoftheplace it

wastakenfrom.I’vebeenreadingsomewritingsbyAndreiTarkovskyunderthetitle‘SculptinginTime’.Hehadasensitivitytoapproachingcomposingandeditingashot,which allowed for that thing to dictate its own duration onto film. He was alsoinfluenced by his father Arseney’s poetry and I’ve included a slightly bastardisedversionofascripthewrotebasedonone.Ithinktheexercisehasbecomeakindofmeditationupontheexperienceforthespectatorofafilmthroughtheconflationofdifferenttimezonesandsourcesinthework.

AndrewSeward

AndrewSewardStudyforaDrawing2015ReasonitconstitutesanUnintendedRefrainMy contribution to this exhibition was suggested by a commentfromafriend.When I asked her about refrains in my work she observed arelationshipbetweenpartsandwholes.‘JustlikethatweirdPollockjigsaw you’ve got’, she said ‘if you were to shred or tear up adrawingofyoursintotinypieces,anyrandomlychosenpieceofthepaperwouldhavethespiritofthewholeinit.’This artwork is a model and a complication of something shenoticedthatIthinkistrue.

InterviewwithAndrewSeward,2September2015SandieBridie:Andrew,whatdoyoutake‘unintendedrefrains’tobeortomean?Andrew Seward: I think that an unintended refrain is those things that you areunawareofasanartistoramakerwhenyouareproducingyourworkandthatyoucan’t necessarily control or speak to or about, but are there nonetheless. I hadn’tconsideredthetermbeforeandyoumentionedit,Ihadneverhearditbefore.No,Icametothetermbyrejectingothers.Partofthethingis,Iamtryingtounderstandwhatyoumeanbytheterm,inordertodecidewhether I canuse that termforsomething that Ihavealways thought isthere in art work, which are the things that are not spoken about and can’tnecessarily be spoken about by the people that make their works. Artists, in myexperience, by and large are theworst people to talk about their work because Ithinkthattheydon’tnecessarilymaketheworkstobespokenabout,becausewhywouldyoudothatifyoucouldspeakaboutit?Maybethereisapersonwhomakesart that isnotnecessarily interested inexpressing those ideasor their thoughts inanyother kindof form, ormaybe takes relief fromhaving to express them in anyother kind ofway. Artist’s statements are notoriously awful things to read and towriteandartist’sdescriptionsoftheirprojectsareusuallyprettywaffly,orturgid,orexcruciating.Isaythatforsomeartists,writing,especiallywritingabouttheirworkislikeusingasecond language, not the innate one that they have available to them to expressthemselvesmostclearly.Ithinkthewaywritingislikethinkingandyoudon’tnecessarilythinkinpictures,youdon’tarticulateideasinpictures,youarticulatetheminwords.I’d like to say more about those things and some experience I have had withunintendedrefrainsinmywork,ifthat’swhattheyarecalled.Idon’tknowwhatthedifferenceisbetweenanunintendedrefrainand,say,atheme.Athemeisprobablymoreconsciousof,anunintendedrefrain,forme, issomethingthatyouareunawarethatyouareinsertingintoyourwork,exceptinretrospect.Andwhathappenstotheunintendedrefrainthen,ifyouareawareofit?InanumberoftheinterviewsthatIhavenowdonewithparticipantsintheproject,theunintendedrefrain,totheartistcanbeaspervasiveasamodeofworkingthatyoudefault to, thatyoumightbe intending tomoveon from.Byarticulatingwhatthatthingisthatyouaretryingtogetawayfrom,itbringsittothesurface,andthenthere is a choice about either accepting this mode of making/working as yourdefault,thatitworksforyou,orthinkingthatmaybeyouwanttomoveonfromit.By

beingconsciousoftherepeatedthingandtakingacriticaldistancefromit,youmaydecidetocreateanewwayofapproachingmakingwork.Thatishowithasworkedfor different people; for some participants it is a default method, or themes, orfamilial figures that are represented in some way, death, those kinds of themes,sometimesitisamechanicalprocess,orotherwise…Areyousuggestingitisatherapykindofmodelofpractice?There can be a progress narrative attached to it for some, but it is whatever youmakeofit.Soforsomepeopleitisusefulintermsofbiographisingyourpractice,butforothers that isnot interesting,or isdownrightannoying toevenapproach it likethat.Thisisanisolatedexercisethatwillhavenofutureuseforsome,forothersitisuseful for this single project, now, and then for others it will be a good way ofreviewing,standingback,seeingwhatisreadacrosstheirpracticethattheyarenotawareof.I think you always interest people if you take what you do seriously, or you areinterested inwhat you do. I –when I say you – amalways interested in trying tounderstandalittlebitmoreaboutwhatIamdoing;mostpicturesaresomeformofdiscovery in termsof curiosity. I like to thinkwhether I canmake the thing I haveimaginedandthenwhenIamintheworkitisawholelotofproblemsolvinginordertogettosomeresolutionofthe ideas,butmostly, inparticular,thework,becauseit’s a physical thing actually making something and often techniques have to beinventedordevised.To keep it interesting for you, rather than just portraying the thing in yourmind’seye,whichcanbeboringifallyouaredoingisplayingthatout.Yes,thatwouldbeawful.Itwouldbeillustration.Factoryworkorwhateveritis.Iprobablyshouldgetthisoutattheoutset,there’sacontradiction inasensebetweensomethingthat isontheonehand,subconsciousandthensomethingthatismadeobjectiveandIamnotreadytoadmitthatthere’sa lack of agency in any of the work that I do, whereas the implication of anunintendedrefrainisthatthereissomethinggoingonthatthepersonwhoismakingtheworkhasnocontrolover. Iaminterestedinthat,butIwouldalsodisputethatwhenweactuallydeterminetomakesomethingthatyouleteverythingoutandgotochanceorhappenstance,yourunconsciousmotivationsandthings likethat. I’veseentheminmyworkconstantly–thingsthatpopupthatIdidnotrecogniseorsee,or only saw later on; images that appear, hidden objects that I have drawn thatweren’tmeant to be there and things like that, but Imade thework and Iwould

alwayswant tomaintain thatauthorityover it, rather thansuggest that therewasanotherrealmofthingsthatIdon’thaveanythingtodowith.Ithinktimecanworkonthemeaningofsomethingandtimecanworkonthereadingof something, so that the retrospective clarity that youhave canmakea series of,say,threeworksdoneoverfiveyearsmakessenseinrelationtooneanother,thougheach one seems to have come out of a different set of circumstances. Looking attheseworksfromadistanceoftimethentheycanreadtogetherandsaysomethingthat you weren’t intending but was present, at some level, in your life or in yourcircumstancesatthattime.Itcanbesomanythings,butitisanopportunityfortheartisttotakeastepbacktogainacriticaldistancefromtheirworkandseeifthereareanysurprisesthereforthemthatareuseful,interestingornoteven,towriteofftheexerciseasawasteoftime–thatisinterestingtome,aswell.Expandingonthat idea,theverythoughtthattherewouldbea levelofawarenessthat isbeyondan individual isnotsomethingthat Iwanttogive into.Tohavethethoughtatallthatanarrativecouldbestructuredaroundsomesortofoverarchingsenseof a bigger pictureor something like that is something that Iwould resist alittle bit. I resist the thought of my subconscious controlling my actions and myactivities,Idon’twantthat,becauseitsuggeststhatthereareotherkindsofthingssociallyorpoliticallyorwhateverthatwillhavesomekindofeffectonmyagency.Buttimescanbereadinawork.Times?That’sbecauseartworksarenotsteadythings,theyare,butbecausetheyarethings they are not just ideas. They can have all sorts of uses apart from beingartworks;theycanbedecoration,theycanbesymbolsofprestigeorcommodities,or what have you. Being in a culture we have no other way of preserving ortransmitting aesthetic experience other than things and I find it really difficult toconsider a world where you could have an aesthetic experience that was notattachedtoathingandIoftenwonderwhatthatworldwouldbelike.Perhapswhenyou start to think about that sort of thing you enter a religious or mysticalexperience,maybethat’stheprogression.Andthat’swhatculturalobjectsweretiedtooriginally.I think in someways itmight do us a lot of good to remove the object from theexperiencebecausethentherewouldbenodoubtaboutwhattheexperiencewas,orwhattheobjectwasfor.Assoonaspeoplewritedownsomething,orsayit,asIamsayingnow,anyofthewordscanbeinterpreted.Itisinterestingtoconsiderthatsomeofthepeoplewhohavebeenextraordinarilyinfluentialwhohavenotwrittenbooks,who have not said things, possibly because they knew that once they saidthingsthewordsthatwerewrittencouldbeusedinallsortsofdifferentways.

Next question is,whatwas your process for selecting your piece for the exhibitionanddidyougothroughanumberofoptionstoarriveatwhatwillbeintheshow?YesIdid,becauseIwasn’treallysurewhatIwaslookingfortobeginwith.IlikedtheideaandIwasinterestedinhavingathinkaboutitandmakingsomethingforit,butIreallywasn’t sure that I could address it in away thatwas a set of instructions, Isuppose.SoIphonedyou,andIphonedafriendandaskedmyfriendiftheycouldseeanything thatmight resemblea refrainor something thatwas recurring inmywork.ShewrotemebackamessageafteracoupleofdayswithasuggestionsthatIthoughtwasgoodand,intheend,tookasachallengeasawaytomakeawork.So,whatwasherreflection?Iwilltrytoremember;essentiallywhatshewassayingwasthatshefelttherewasinmyworkarelationshipbetweenpartsandwholes.Shesaid, ‘somethingtodowithpartsandwholes’-shewasn’tsurewhatitis.Doyoumeananisolatingofafragmentofsomething?Yeah,but then that fragment thenhadsomething todowith the thing that itwasremoved from in some way. And she felt there was a connection between thatparticular theme, refrain, concern and the technique that I used making thedrawings,inparticular.ThewaythatIhavelearnthowtodrawisbybuildinguplotsofsmalllittlehatchingmarks;whenIwasfirstdoinglotsofdrawingIwouldusepensandbirosandinkandthingslikethatandthat’saprettytypicaltechniquethatyouuse.Likeanetchingtechnique.Yes, it is and when I began using pencils, that technique became, after a fewdifferent ways of working, something I fell back into and I like working that way.Then that technique has evolved a little bit so that instead of hatching lines,sometimes Imightdrawapieceofwoodand the linesbecomea seriesofverticallines that thenbuildupthegrainof thewood. Idid that inparticularwhen Ididareallylargesetofdrawingsofwoodchips.ThatworkinparticularwassomethingthatEbony was referring to, because she could see that the technique built up thesubject and she felt from that detail of the subject she could then imagine thebranch,thetree,thatsortofthing,goingforward.Sosheidentifiedthisconnectionbetween technique and the subject. I thought that was good, it was a niceobservation.Itsoundedtrue.Itwasagoodobservationbecause Ihadn’t reallymadeaconnectionbetween thesubjectsthatIwasworkingwith,whichareoftenfragments,bustedupstuff,andthe

technique itself. And the suggestion was that if I took one of my drawings andshreddedit,ortoreitup,thatthedrawingitselfwouldretainsomekindofelementofthesubjectofthedrawingandthereforethesubject.Soyoucouldkeepbreakingthewholethingdownbuttherewouldalwaysbesomepartofitthatwouldremainareferent to thewhole thing. I think the imageofabrokenmirror isagoodwayofthinkingaboutit,itisnotexactlywhatshemeans,butyouknowwhenyoubreakamirror,thereflections justmultiply. It isnotdestroyed. Idon’treally likethat idea,butitisalongthoselines.So that was useful for you to have someone look at your work and she reflectedsomething back to you that you were not conscious of, or that is an observationaboutprocessandcontent.WellitwasonethatIhadn’thadanditwasnicetohavesomeonesaythat.Doyoufeelitissomethingthatispervasiveinyourwork?Yes. Itmadesense.She isanartist too, so she lookedatmyworkasa technician.PerhapsifIhadaskedsomeoneelsetheymighthavesaid,youlikebustedthingsandputtingthembacktogetherinsomewaytomakeawholeoutofsomethingthathasbeenbrokenup.Sothereflectionisalwaysfromtheexperienceofthepersonlookingatthework.Probably.Sotheprobingquestionmighthavebeen,whydoyoudrawbrokenthingsallthetime,orsomethinglikethat.Whatdoesthefragmentmean?What’sgoingonthere?Do you want me to ask that question? It is like a myopic versus a longsightedpropensity,focussingonthedetailratherthanthewholeorthewholeinrelationtowhat it is surrounded by. Youmight need to break things down tomake sense ofthings.Idon’tknow,IamjustwantingtoseethingsclearlyandIthinkthemorenarrowthefocusthemoreclearlyyoucanlookatit.Allmyworkisaboutlookingatthingsandwhat isgoingonwhenyou look.There isa laboratoryelement to theworkwheresomethingisisolated.Youhavedonebotanicaldrawingandyouareapplyingthoseskillstoobservinganddrawingthingsthataren’talwaysbotanical.Wellthat’sright,butthereasonwhyIwantedtomakebotanicaldrawingsinthefirstplacewasbecausetherewassomethingaboutthewayofseeingthingsandahistoryoflookingatstuffissobeautifullyrepresentedinthatfield;youcanseethechangesin theway that people see things over time, because they are drawing the same

sorts of things. So representation changes and the reasons for those changes isfascinating. That’s a really old kind of understanding of anyonewho has taken aninterestinlookingatthings.Therearestyles.Yes,buttherearealsomodesofvisionandthingslikethat.Andaprogressiveproliferationofexamplestocomparefrom.Inthatparticularfieldyoucanactuallybequiteanalyticalinawaythatyoucan’tbein contemporary art, for example, or broader streams ofwestern art history, it isthere for sure, but inmicrocosm it is there in the history of scientific illustration.Quiteasidefromthat,thechallengeofmakinganimagethatwayandparticipatinginthatstoryorthatworldreallyrequiresthatkindofattention,inordertoskilluptothe levelthatyouneedto.Onceyoustartdrawing,ofcourse,yourealise justhowmuchyoudon’tknowandhowmuchthereistolearn.IrememberwhenIfirstbegandrawing,IthoughtIhadbetterlearnhowtodrawifIwanttomakethiskindofwork,Iwanted tomake beautifulwatercolours and beautiful things in velumand thingslikethat,Iamstilllearninghowtodrawfifteenyearslater.Youareprobablygettingbetteralongtheway,justthroughperseverance.Sometimes I think that the virtuoso kind of drawing that I wanted to get to haspeaked.There’saplateauthatcomeswithage!Maculardegenerationissettingin.Somethinglikethat,myfocusisnotquiteasintense.One ofmy teachers at art school was Jan Nelson; she was right into this idea ofsynecdoche,whichhasstayedwithmeforquitealongtime.It’salinguisticterm;itmeanswhen a small thing stands in for awhole or awhole stands in for a smallthing. A classic example is ‘in Canberra they have been talking about tax cuts orbudgetorwhatever it is’. It isnotCanberrasayingthosethings;Canberrastandsinforparliamentarians inthenationalcapital.Likewise,say‘EnglandbeatAustraliaatcricket.’‘England’istheEnglishcricketteam,itisnotthecountry.Anditworkstheotherwayaround,letmethinkofanotherone,thereisanoldone–sails,theytalkabout sails for ships, ‘you can see seven sails out thereon theharbour’ – that’s asynecdoche.Thatistherelationshipofpartstowhole.That’sanideathathasstayedwithme,butnotjusttheidea;it’sthelinguisticelementoftheideathathasbecomemost important in terms of my practice because there is a linguistic element ineverything that I do, we are talking about language in one way or another. Notpictures,butbecausethepicturesarekeyedintothinkingandthinkingis language,as Iwassayingearlieron.Youthink inwords,well Ithink inwords, Idon’tthink in

pictures.Therearedifferentwaysofthinking,peoplethinkwithmovement,butifIamhavingathoughtaboutsomething,it’swords.So,ifanything,that’sasourceoffrustration and contradiction and probably stops me from being really good atbotanicaldrawingorreallygoodatwhateveritisatmakingartworksbecauseIamalwaysthinkingaboutwhatthethingisratherthanjustacceptingitasapictureorsomethinglikethat.Whatisthepiecethatyouwillshowandhowdoesthistalkbacktotheideaoftheunintendedrefrain?Well, I tookEbony’s suggestionabout tearingupdrawings and seeing if you couldfindareflectionoftheworkinthereasabitofachallenge.SoIconsideredtearingup a drawing. I have keptmost ofmydrawings and I have never really destroyedmuchbecauseIliketohavethingsaroundthatIcanlookatifIameverwonderingifIamgettinganybetteratwhatIamdoing–Icango,ohyeah,it’sprettycrap,Iambetterthanthat!AndeventhoughIhavegot lotsandlotsofreallyawfuldrawingsand pictures and things, they all have their own integrity. I made a big pile ofdrawingsandIwasgoingtotearupsomeofthese,butwhenitcametoit,Icouldn’tdoit!Sodidyoumakeafacsimile?WhatIdidwas,IshreddedapieceofpaperandthenIdrewthatpieceofpaper.Sothatthenisreproducingnottheprocessofyourwork,butamechanicalversionofit.It is likethewoodchips,thisisthecomparisonIcanthinkofinyourpractice,youhaveapileofwoodchipsbuthereyouarecreatingapileofshredsofpaperasyoursubjectmatter.So,it’saninversion,Isuppose.Itisnotthefoundobject,youhavecreatedthesefragments.That’snotalltheobject,though.Thethingthatismissingfromthatisthepairingofthat drawing with a jigsaw puzzle that I have of Jackson Pollock’s painting‘Convergence’.Andoneof the reasons that that is there is thatwhenEbonyand Iwere having this conversation, she made the observation ‘just like that weirdJackson Pollock jigsaw puzzle. If you tore up that drawing, it would contain someessentialaspectofthedrawing.’Sothatpuzzleistherenexttothatdrawing,whichhasbeenboundinitsownfolioandthepiecesthatIdrewareincludedintheworkitself.It’sadrawingoftheshreddedbitsofpaperbuttheshreddedbitsofpaperarepartofthework.Theywillbelaidoutnexttothedrawing.

Inthesamewaythatajigsawpuzzleisabunchofthingsandoftenhasanimageofwhatthepieceismeanttolooklikewhenitisdone.Butitisanabsurdnotionthatyoucouldputmyshreddedbitsofpaperbacktogetheragainandyouwouldgetthepieceofpaper,butyouwouldn’tgetthedrawing.Becauseeven if thedrawingof the shreddedpaperwason thepieceofpaper, theconfigurationwouldbedifferent.Anditcouldn’tbeonthepieceofpaperbecauseifitwas,itwouldn’tbeinthebook– it wouldn’t be the model for the drawing. So, absurdity and these kinds ofcontradictions isalsosomethingthat I findreally interesting, Iguessthat’sanotherrefrainorthemeorsomethinglikethat.WhyamIdrawingbustedupstuff?WhyamIdrawingwoodchips?It’sabsurdspendingallthistimedoingthesesortsofthings.Theeccentriclabouroftheartist.Idon’tknow,Ilikethewordabsurd,Ithinkitisridiculous.Ithinkthateccentricisaword that suggests frivolity or something like that in a way that absurd doesn’t.Thereisaveryseriouselementtoabsurdity,Ithink.Did yougo througha number of options to arrive atwhatwill be displayed in theshow?Yeah,wellIdid.Iplayedwithwaysofdoingitandthereweresomewaysofmakingthiscombinationofthingsmoresuccessfulthanothers.InthedrawingIhaveworkedthewayIwouldnormallywork,butthehatchingelementtothestyleofmydrawingisevidentinthewaythatthedrawinghasbeenmadeanditwasquitenaturaltodothat, but the pieces themselves that have been shredded are also hatching thingstoo, do you knowwhat Imean? They are not long shredded strips, I deliberatelyusedamachinethatshredsandcuts,sotheyarelikelittlelines.So,whatIamsayingis,thesubjectisareflectionofthewaythatithasbeendrawnasapileoflines.Isawthat therewas thatwayofdrawing in lotsofearlierwork, soatonepoint Ihadabunch of drawings that I wanted to include as a way of demonstrating thatsomethinglikethiswasgoingbackquitealongway.Butthatwasn’tsatisfyingandIwentback toEbony’s response to theoriginalquestionand that the jigsawpuzzlereferencemadesense.It’squitearobustsortofexample, Ithink.Thereissomethingquiteclearabouttheconnection,becausethejigsawisoutsideyourhistorybutitspeakstoaprocess.IhavehadthisjigsawpuzzleforquitealongtimeandIhaveoftenwonderedhowIcould use it; I have made collages using jigsaw puzzle pieces, but this is notsomethingthatIhaveeverconsidereddestroyingtomakesomethingelse.It’sgotaniceintegritytoit,ithasaniceboxandtheposter,andit’sbeautiful.Butusedasa

kindof a readymade toputnext to an artwork like this says something about theconnectionbetween theobjectand the subjectand its representation that I reallyliked.Yep,thatseemsclearerthansomethingthat’smorecodedwithinyourownpractice.Yeah, or even more literal, like here’s the subject, here’s the object, isn’t thatinteresting thisdifference invarious representational forms? Well, it’sabout that,but it is also about what you are trying to propose into with the subject of thisexhibition.Andit’snice,thepuzzleiscalled‘Convergence’andit’ssweetthatthereisthisconvergencebetweentheimagesandtheideasandthesetwokindsofobjectsputtogether.Yes,Ithinktheywillbecurious;theywillinviteconversationandadmirationandthendeliberatequestioningaboutwhythetwoobjectsshouldbetogether.Ihopeso;Idon’tthinkitisaspectacularlookingartworkintermsofspectacle;it’sameditationreally.It’sastudy,itisnotcomplete–Ihavecalledthework‘Studyforadrawing’,becausethatiswhatitis,itisnotadrawing,it’sastudyforadrawingthatmight bemade or thatmight have already beenmade. You canmake studies forthingsafteryouhavemadethework.The final question is about the quality of the experience; how interesting, useful,perplexingand/orirritatinghasthisexercisebeenforyou?It’sbeenallofthosethings.Itwasgood.ThethingthatIamleftthinkingaboutistheabsenceoftheobject;whatdoesitlooklikeifyouhaveanaestheticexperienceandthereisnotanobjecttoexperienceitwith?BecauseeventhoughIhavemadethisthing,a lotof it isaboutwhatcan’tbeshownandwhat’snotthere.Perhapsthat’snotactuallywhat’sinthework,butitisathoughtIhavehadsinceImadethework.