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JUSTICE BREYER: I don't see how -- I mean,
you know, given our prior discussion here, I don't see
how that's the issue. Because you say we have to assume
that the Defendant here didn't know that, in fact, all
that was at issue was a violation of the traffic law.
MR. JONES: Well, I'm not talking about the
underlying violation here. I'm talking about the
conduct observed by the officer who made the decision to
use deadly force.
JUSTICE BREYER: That conduct -- it could be
conduct -- you could say exactly your same question,
just as the Chief just said. I mean, I don't know how
to get around this. You could say the question was,
does a person who reasonably thinks he might be being
pursued for a murder --
MR. JONES: This is the issue. This is the
issue. If what this person is doing is driving, say
driving unsafely, but they are not driving violently,
they are not driving aggressively, they are not menacing
anyone on the road. They are simply driving fast trying
to get away, that in and of itself, is that going to be
justification for the use of deadly force or is
something more going to be required?
JUSTICE ALITO: When someone is fleeing and
creating a grave danger, let's just assume that that's
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the case, creating a very danger for other drivers on
the road, when in your view is it reasonable for the
police to use deadly force to stop that, as opposed to
breaking off the chase? What, what is the test.
MR. JONES: Well, under Garner the test is
they have to be threatening violence or inflicting
violence against someone. There have to be no other
alternatives other than deadly force available to effect
the apprehension. And assuming there is justification
for deadly force, then there is a duty to give a warning
where feasible before using deadly force. And the court
below felt none of those three factors --
JUSTICE ALITO: How could you possibly give
a warning in this situation?
MR. JONES: It's academic in this case,
because the first two factors were not met. I mean,
it's our position that you don't worry about giving a
warning unless you have the right to use deadly force,
and if you don't get to that point then it's -- it's a
moot question.
JUSTICE GINSBURG: Why wasn't there warning?
There were lights, there were sirens. Surely the
defendant knew that the police were trying to stop him.
MR. JONES: There was certainly warning that
he needed -- that he was expected to pull over. There
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was no warning of any intent to use deadly force.
JUSTICE BREYER: What am I -- you said
factually. What am I supposed to assume? You said in
light of -- I mean, I looked at the tape and that tape
shows he is weaving on both sides of the lane, swerving
around automobiles that are coming in the opposite
direction with their lights on, goes through a red light
where there are several cars that are right there,
weaves around them, and there are cars coming the other
way, weaves back, goes down the road.
Now, what in fact -- am I supposed to
pretend I haven't seen that? What am I supposed to
pretend to here?
MR. JONES: Well, I didn't see that.
JUSTICE BREYER: You didn't see that?
MR. JONES: I --
JUSTICE BREYER: You didn't -- I thought
that -- you didn't see that?
MR. JONES: Well, the point is most people
use the word weaving to describe the motion of
Mr. Harris's car is when they are going through the, the
shopping center --
JUSTICE BREYER: No, no. I -- what I saw is
he is driving down one lane, what I mean by weaving, and
this lane goes with me in traffic. And there is some
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cars in front of him, so he goes in the other lane where
the cars are now coming right directly at him. And then
before they hit him, he goes back to the first lane and
he does this while going through a red light, it seemed
to me.
Am I -- did I mis-see that? I'll go look at
it again if you --
MR. JONES: The -- feel free to look at it
again.
JUSTICE BREYER: Yeah.
MR. JONES: But those are not the facts that
were found by the court below in this --
JUSTICE BREYER: Well that's, that's what I
wonder. If the court says that isn't what happened, and
I see with my eyes that is what happened, what am I
supposed to do?
MR. JONES: Well, I think you apply the law,
Your Honor.
JUSTICE KENNEDY: The district --
(Laughter.)
JUSTICE KENNEDY: Under, under -- under your
rule, what you're concerned with is the bumping, the use
of the force. Under your rule, if the police continue
the chase without using the, without trying to ram him,
and then there is an accident and innocent people are
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killed, or injured, I assume that under the tort laws of
most states, the police could be liable.
MR. JONES: Well in theory perhaps they
could be if the officer was a joint proximate cause of
the accident, but in most states --
JUSTICE KENNEDY: Well, aren't they the
proximate cause if they continue the chase without
trying to terminate it?
MR. JONES: That's correct. If the officer
terminates the chase then he is never going to be liable
because number one he is acting prudently; he is going
based upon Department of Justice studies showing 70
percent --
JUSTICE KENNEDY: No. No. Well, I meant
terminate the chase by -- by -- by forcing him off the
road.
MR. JONES: Well, if he terminates the chase
using deadly force, that that creates a whole host of
other problems.
JUSTICE KENNEDY: But isn't there -- but
isn't that one way to assure that the police are not
liable, both from a moral standpoint and a legal
standpoint, for causing the injury of other people?
MR. JONES: Now from a constitutional
standpoint the Fourth Amendment doesn't protect other
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people. It protects those who have been seized. And
that's, that's the framework we are dealing with here
today.
JUSTICE KENNEDY: Well, you mean it's
irrelevant to our analysis to consider that he might
injure other people?
MR. JONES: The potential for danger to
others is certainly part of the justification for deadly
force, just as, if deadly force cannot be used
endangering other people, then that certainly goes into
the matrix, too.
JUSTICE SCALIA: Mr. Jones, could I --
MR. JONES: Yeah.
JUSTICE SCALIA: Could I ask whether the
portion of the opinion that you say establishes that he
was not endangering anybody is this portion? The court
is mindful that traffic laws are designed to -- safely
-- and Harris acted in an unsafe manner. However, the
record reflects" -- - is this the portion?
MR. JONES: Yes.
JUSTICE SCALIA: -- "that he maintained
control over his vehicle." Well, that doesn't prove
he's not endangering anybody. "Used his turn signals"
-- wonderful.
(Laughter.)
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JUSTICE SCALIA: "And did not endanger any
particular motorist on the road." I think that's true.
In that scary chase he, he didn't come close to hitting
any particular car, but I don't think that's, that's a
finding that he was not endangering anybody. "Any
particular motorist," but he was endangering the public
at large.
MR. JONES: Well, this is my point is that
if, if the drive --if the hazard caused by driving in
and of itself is the only threat here, does that rise to
a level of imminency and immediacy that justifies the
use of deadly force? If it does, then any officer who
perceives that someone is driving unsafely and that they
may cause an accident to someone who may or may not be
down the road if not stopped, would be justified in
using deadly force, to literally take out anyone who is
speeding.
JUSTICE SCALIA: It depends on how fast --
if depends on how fast the car is going, whether it's a
two-lane road or four-lane divided highway. All those
factors come into, into account. And it doesn't seem to
me that we have to adopt a rule that will, that will
discourage police officers. There's, there's enough
disincentive to engage in this kind of activity in the
fact that the police officer may hurt himself. It's
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pretty risky to conduct this kind of a maneuver, don't
you think? I wouldn't have done it if I was Scott.
MR. JONES: Well that's --
JUSTICE SCALIA: I would have let the guy
go.
MR. JONES: Now what he, if he --
JUSTICE SCALIA: Driving 90 miles an hour
and comes up, approaches that car, that car swerved.
Scott could have been killed, couldn't he?
MR. JONES: Absolutely. Or because he's
also --
JUSTICE SCALIA: So I don't think we need a
whole lot of disincentive to stop police officers in
engaging in frolicsome conduct.
MR. JONES: Well, not only that, Justice
Scalia. The officer had no control over what was going
to happen once he used deadly force, like the officer
who fired into the cab of a flying vehicle in Barn v
Cox, once you disable the driver the car keeps going.
And in this case, when you -- when you hit the vehicle
and knock a vehicle that has been in control and make it
out of control, then it's now an unguided missile that
could just as easily cross the center line and hit an
innocent person.
JUSTICE STEVENS: Let me just ask this
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question. In trying to assess the likelihood of harm to
innocent people who would be hurt by this by this guy
driving so fast, is that, do we measure it by assuming
that the chase will continue? Or do we measure it by
assuming that the chase would be discontinued?
MR. JONES: The officer --
JUSTICE STEVENS: Just as we did in Garner?
MR. JONES: The officer has both options. I
mean Garner simply commands that he not use deadly force
if it's a choice between letting him go and using deadly
force. Now in the Sacramento v Lewis case, it does say
that involves a different, a different type of claim and
a different standard. But in the Sacramento case it
does say that an officer in a pursuit has a duty to
always be weighing the risk of the continued pursuit
against the risk to the public. So there is an
independent duty there to act reasonably.
JUSTICE STEVENS: If it were -- clear that a
jury could find that there would be no unreasonable risk
to innocent motorists if they discontinued the chase --
assume that's a possible finding. If that were true,
would there be a duty to discontinue the chase?
MR. JONES: Not under the Fourth Amendment.
Now, the -- the only expert testimony in this record on
that subject says there is a 7 percent chance --
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JUSTICE STEVENS: You're saying there is a
duty not to use deadly force.
MR. JONES: That's what Garner says, if you
don't use deadly force. And that's what our claim is.
CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: And aren't you
concerned that that creates an incentive in every case
for anyone who, that sees the blue lights behind them to
know that all they have to do is keep fleeing and the
police are going to have to give up eventually?
MR. JONES: Well, let me respond by reading
a portion of Garner that deals with that point,
Mr. Chief Justice. These, these same important policy
reasons were raised in Garner, that we don't want to
encourage disobedience of issues. We want to discourage
people from fleeing. And this is what the Garner Court
said --
CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Well, Garner --
Garner was the case involving shooting the guy in the
back, right?
MR. JONES: Yes. He might easily break into
someone else's house and perhaps end up killing them.
This was a vigorous dissent in Garner. But this is what
the majority said: "Without in any way disparaging the
importance of these goals we are not convinced that the
use of deadly force is a sufficiently productive means
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of accomplishing them to justify the killing of
nonviolent suspects."
And if unsafe driving --
JUSTICE KENNEDY: But your, your answer to
Justice Stevens as I understand it was the police not
have the duty to discontinue the chase? The obverse of
that is that the police may prolong the chase, i.e.,
prolong the injury to the public. I'm surprised at your
answer.
MR. JONES: Well, I think there is an
independent duty, it doesn't rise under the Fourth
Amendment, but there is an independent duty to do that.
But my concern is that under Garner, given a choice
between --
JUSTICE STEVENS: It is certainly the case
that if there is going to be a, a risk of deadly harm to
innocent third parties, there would be a duty to
discontinue the chase rather kill him. But you don't
seem to buy that.
MR. JONES: Well, experience shows most of
the time when you discontinue a chase, the person who is
running discontinues driving unsafely. That is the --
that is experience. This officer's own policy says that
JUSTICE SCALIA: Did this study show what
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future fleeing speeders would do?
I mean, I will accept that for, for the sake
of argument that -- in fact, it's probably true. I
would have guessed that, if the police stopped chasing,
you don't go 90 miles an hour anymore. But did this
study show what the effect of a rule that says stop
chasing when he hits 85, what the effect of that rule
would be on, on fleeing speeders or fleeing felons, or
fleeing anybody?
MR. JONES: Well, the rule simply says you
don't kill him just because he is driving unsafely. And
if, it simply says that if the choice is between killing
him and letting him go, you have to let him go if the
Garner factors aren't present. And we find nothing in
the law and no reason to create a new exception in the
law that says that Garner doesn't apply if you're
fleeing by vehicle.
Thank you. We ask that the Court of Appeals
be affirmed.
CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Thank you,
Mr. Jones.
Mr. Savrin, you have four minutes remaining.
REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF PHILIP W. SAVRIN,
ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER
MR. SAVRIN: Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
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Let me refocus for a moment that in order
for the officer to be denied qualified immunity in this
context a jury would have to be able to find two things.
One, that no -- that there was no probable cause, and
second, that that was clearly established. And I think
that the discussion this morning if nothing else shows
that it's not clearly established.
As far as the Fourth Amendment is concerned,
I think the measure needs to be exactly as this Court
stated in Graham versus Connor, which is looking at the
facts from the standpoint of the officer on the scene,
because after all, he has to make split-second
decisions. He does not have the benefit of taking
depositions of Mr. Harris --
JUSTICE BREYER: What am I supposed to do?
I mean, I'll look again at the tape. I certainly will
do that. But suppose I look at the tape and I end up
with Chico Marx's old question with respect to the Court
of Appeals: Who do you believe, me or your own eyes?
MR. SAVRIN: Your Honor, I think the answer
to that question was provided in this decision in
Ornelas versus United States, a decision by this Court
in 1996 that came up in the context of a criminal, a
direct criminal appeal involving the question of
probable cause. And this Court set forth very clearly
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that the historical facts are given deference. The
question of, a legal question about whether those facts
reasonably give rise to probable cause is an independent
de novo review.
JUSTICE SCALIA: Whether he is endangering
anybody is a historical fact, no? So what do you do
about that finding?
MR. SAVRIN: I don't believe that is
historical fact.
JUSTICE SCALIA: It is.
MR. SAVRIN: The historical facts here are
whether Mr. Harris was driving excessively, whether he
was driving across the line, whether he was driving at
high rates of speed, whether there was anybody in his
path, whether he had collided with anyone. I think the
question about whether or not those facts give rise to
probable cause to believe that Harris was a threat of
serious physical harm is a legal issue, and I think the
Court of Appeals recognized that in this case when they
applied a different analysis or came out with a
different result to those same undisputed facts.
JUSTICE GINSBURG: What is the, the court
saying -- and this is on page 39 A of the petition
appendix -- when Harris was driving away from officers
and when there, when there were no other motorists or
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pedestrians nearby, thus casting doubt on defendant's
assertion that at the time of the ramming, Harris posed
an immediate threat of harm to others.
This is a finding that there were no other
motorists or pedestrians nearby when the ramming
occurred.
MR. SAVRIN: And that is a fact that we
accept as true in the immediate vicinity. The tape
shows that there was a vehicle just 12 seconds before,
and I think that a reasonable officer at the time would
believe that that wasn't going to be the last vehicle on
that road.
JUSTICE SCALIA: I would hope he would wait
until there were no pedestrians or vehicles coming
before he, before he did the ramming.
MR. SAVRIN: Yes, Your Honor.
JUSTICE SCALIA: I assume he waited
precisely for that kind of a gap in the traffic?
MR. SAVRIN: Yes, Your Honor. Exactly. He
had limited options and I believe it was a no-win
scenario. And he took the best course that he
reasonably believed he could at the time. And --
CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Do you agree with
Mr. Jones' statement that none of Mr. Harris' conduct
rose to the level of a felony?
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MR. SAVRIN: I would not, Your Honor. In
our brief we did list a number of felonies that
Mr. Harris, that we believe he committed. But I would
go back to Garner, and Garner says that an armed suspect
would have been a different case. And Garner also says
that some misdemeanors such as drunk driving are more
dangerous that some felonies such as white collar crime.
So I think the question should not be whether it's a
technical issue of crossing the line from misdemeanor to
felony, but the harm that is being caused by the
continued driving that's exactly what occurred in this
case.
And if I could respond to Justice Breyer's
question about what to do in terms of responding to
Mr. Marx's question, I think the Ornelas case says that
you would review it for clear error. And in this case
you would not owe deference of a finding of fact by the
lower court.
CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Thank you,
Mr. Savrin. The case is submitted.
[Whereupon, at 11:47 a.m., the case in the
above-titled matter was submitted.]
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