Origins of Atlantis/Lemuria Myths Part-1

Hello.

Before we begin let me start by saying if you’re looking for Edward Casey, little grey guys zapping early humans or King Tut’s I-Pod and DVD collection stories this isn’t it! I have read many threads and watched many videos posted here at ATS over the past year or so. I have also read and listened to many fine theories and speculations on the origin of man and on lost civilizations and such over the past couple of decades of my adult life. I now would like to introduce one of my “Theories” into the hat/ring. I’ll be presenting factual and speculative information. I’ll admit right up front and MAKE no mistake in understanding that I submit this as “Theory”.

I want to begin with the dreaded Atlantis/Lemuria myths.

These are viewed as a joke in certain academic circles while in others they are taken very seriously. I have poured over many readings of Plato’s account of the lost...

Civilization/Continent

I honestly do not believe those two locations ever existed. However, having said that. I’m a firm believer in the possibility of a retelling of a story that had been passed down from generation to generation of when the ocean levels rose during the last ice age melt off. In many cultures from around the world that lived during those periods in time along the

coasts, inlet seas or rivers they tell Tales/Myths about having their entire world as they knew it flooded.

We will be traveling the world in exploration on this subject. So get a hot cup of coffee or if you’re like me a scotch and sit back and enjoy

Media @ AboveTopSecret.com Home Page

Pro Videos  |  Top-Rated Videos  |  Most-Watched Videos

Homo sapiens A human is a member of a species of bipedal primates in the family Hominidae (taxonomically Homo sapiens—Latin: "wise man" or "knowing man").[2][3] DNA and fossil evidence indicates that modern humans originated in east Africa about 200,000 years ago.

If modern man is truly only 200,000 years old by some estimates and civilization only really began around the earliest signs of a sedentarization process which can be traced back to the Mediterranean region to as early as 12000 BC. Then just where the hell have we been for the preceding 165,000 to 188,000 years?

Then out of nowhere we get this!

Göbekli Tepe Göbekli Tepe's circles range from 30 to 100 feet in diameter and are surrounded by rectangular stone walls about six feet high. Many of the pillars are carved with elaborate animal figure reliefs, including bulls, foxes, cranes, lions, ducks, scorpions, ants, spiders, and snakes. Other freestanding sculptures depicting the animals have also been found within the circles. During the most recent excavation, archaeologists uncovered a statue

of a human, as well as sculptures of a vulture's head and a boar.

The oldest structures belong to what archaeologists call the early Pre-Pottery Neolithic A period, which ended around 9000 B.C. Strangely enough, the later remains, which date to the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B period, or about 8000 B.C., are less elaborate. The earliest levels contain most of the T-shaped pillars and animal sculptures.

The most recent building phase at Göbekli Tepe (Level II) has been dated both comparatively and absolutely (C14) to ca 8,000 BC, with an earlier primary building phase (Level III) ending as early as 9,000 BC. The age of the earliest occupation cannot yet be determined; the depth of the deposit, however, would suggest a period of several millennia, which signifies that the site had already existed in early Paleolithic times.

I'm not a big fan of Hancock but he does raise some rather interesting questions. I don’t believe as he does that there was a vast global civilization. Rather I believe there were slightly more advanced megalithic cultures that were spread along the ancient Ice Age coastlines. I'm not a believer in Atlantis as in one location that sank. In fact I think the whole island story is completely a myth. I do however think that some hints of a real lost past are given in Plato’s dialogue. Hints that describe what really happened and have been told through stories/myths passed down through successive generations.

There is a very interesting part in the dialogue that always seems to be overlooked by many. It explains why there is a large gap in social/technological development between the survivors and the lost advanced Atlantian cities. In it he describes the oceans rising from below not the land sinking.

When, on the other hand, the gods purge the earth with a deluge of water, the survivors in your country are herdsmen and shepherds who dwell on the mountains, but those who, like you, live in cities are carried by the rivers into the sea. Whereas in this land, neither then nor at any other time, does the water come down from above on the fields, having always a tendency to come up from below; for which reason the traditions preserved here are the most ancient.

The fact is, that wherever the extremity of winter frost or of summer does not prevent, mankind exist, sometimes in greater, sometimes in lesser numbers. And whatever happened either in your country or in ours, or in any other region of which we are informed-if there were any actions noble or great or in any other way remarkable, they have all been written down by us of old, and are preserved in our temples.

Now lets discuss Ancient Aegean/Greece-Turkey

No Not this one thats present day Greece & Turkey

I was referring to the really ancient Aegean.

The current coastline dates back to about 4000 BC. Before that time, at the peak of the last ice age (c. 16,000 BC) sea levels everywhere were 130 metres lower, and there were large well-watered coastal plains instead of much of the northern Aegean. When they were first occupied, the present-day islands including Milos with its important obsidian production were probably still connected to the mainland.

The present coastal arrangement appeared c. 7000 BC, with post-ice age sea levels continuing to rise for another 3000 years after that. The subsequent Bronze Age civilizations of Greece and the Aegean Sea have given rise to the general term Aegean civilization. In ancient times the sea was the birthplace of two ancient civilizations – the Minoans of Crete and the Mycenean Civilization of the Peloponnese.[2]

Prehistoric Crete Cretan history is surrounded by myths (such as those of the king Minos; Theseus and the Minotaur; and Daedalus and Icarus) that have been passed to us via Greek historian/poets (such as Homer). Because of a lack of written records, estimates of Cretan chronology are based on well-established Aegean and Ancient Near Eastern pottery styles, so that Cretan timelines have been made by seeking Cretan artifacts traded with other civilizations (such as the Egyptians) - a well established occurrence. For the earlier times, radiocarbon dating of organic remains and charcoal offers independent dates. Based on this, it is thought that Crete was inhabited from the 7th millennium BC onwards.

Minoan civilization The oldest evidence of inhabitants on Crete are preceramic Neolithic farming community remains that date to approximately 7000 BC.[8] A comparative study of yDNA haplogroups of modern Cretan men showed that a male founder group came from Anatolia or the Levant, like the Greeks.[9] See History of Crete for details.

The Development of the Anatolian Aceramic Neolithic Package 11000 B.C. to 6000 B.C. The basic assemblage that comprised the Neolithic package developed between 11000 B.C. and 7000 B.C. in places like Tell es-Sultan (Jericho) in the Levant among the Natufians and Pinarbasi in southwestern Anatolia. This was an amazingly innovative and creative period in human recorded history. For the first time large groups of people came together in an interdependent way to solve their problems of survival and to improve their quality of life by settling permanently in areas of natural abundance. The specialization of productive labor that spread its benefits to everyone is perhaps the greatest revolution in human socialization.

In about 10200 B.C. houses were being built in Hallan Çemi Tepesi in eastern Anatolia where they used stone incised bowls and made extensive use of wild plants and animals. The site has some of the earliest evidence of possible pig domestication. The settlement of Cayönü was formed in 8500 B.C. in southeastern Anatolia and developed elaborate buildings with terrazzo floors. They used awls and fishhooks of cold-hammered native copper, and show the earliest evidence of the possible use of flax to weave linen textiles. At about this same time Nevali Cori built monumental stone structures that were probably shrines. After 8000 B.C. Asikli Höyük became a real town surrounded by a city wall with a large obsidian industry. Over the next 2,000 years these trends toward urbanization culminated in the settlements of Çatal Höyük and Can Hasan in Anatolia.

Query.... Could these foundations of civilizations simply be the result of mass migration inland or up to higher ground aka mountains which became islands away from the rising Mediterranean? People forced to migrate then came together? Seems every bit as plausible as any other theory. Also lets not forget these anomalies from around the same location and time frame.

How was it explained in the Dialog again?

When, on the other hand, the gods purge the earth with a deluge of water, the survivors in your country are herdsmen and shepherds who dwell on the mountains, but those who, like you, live in cities are carried by the rivers into the sea. Whereas in this land, neither then nor at any other time, does the water come down from above on the fields, having always a tendency to come up from below; for which reason the traditions preserved here are the most ancient.

Anatolia History Eastern Anatolia contains the oldest monumental structures in the world. For example, the monumental structures at Göbekli Tepe were built by hunters and gatherers a thousand years before the development of agriculture. Eastern Anatolia is also a heart region for the Neolithic revolution, one of the earliest areas in which humans domesticated plants and animals. Neolithic sites such as Çatalhöyük, Çayönü, Nevali Cori and Hacilar represent the world's oldest known agricultural villages.

Now let’s discuss Ancient India and the Indus valley

Lost city 'could rewrite history' The remains of what has been described as a huge lost city may force historians and archaeologists to radically reconsider their view of ancient human history. Marine scientists say archaeological remains discovered 36 metres (120 feet) underwater in the Gulf of Cambay off the western coast of India could be over 9,000 years old. The vast city - which is five miles long and two miles wide - is believed to predate the oldest known remains in the subcontinent by more than 5,000 years.

The ocean levels were lower during the last ice age. That area in question was not glaciated. It was very hospitable. The last ice age did not mean the entire planet was frozen. During that period the ice caps were much larger with a very large percentage of Earths water frozen on land over most of the northern hemisphere. During the most recent ice age (at its maximum about 20,000 years ago) the world's sea level was about 130 m lower than today, { 130 meters is equal to 426.51 feet.} due to the large amount of

sea water that had evaporated and been deposited as snow and ice, mostly in the Laurentide ice sheet. Which meant the coast lines were extended much further out then they are now.

The area in question is off the west coast of India. In this image from Google it would be the light blue area. The theoretical coast line would be at the farthest extent from the present coast line to the outer edge of the light blue area in this picture.

I find it rather interesting when we consider that there has been no real evidence of Stone Age tool making in India. Then out of nowhere again we have one of the worlds earliest civilizations show up along the Indus valley.

Complete speculation on my part.

But I wouldn't think it's too far off to consider the possibility of an early Stone Age civilization that had to move inland as the oceans slowly rose to their present day levels

and covered up any evidence of early Stone Age development. Where were they for the preceding 6.000 years? I postulate that there were early Stone Age megalithic sites. I wouldn't exactly call them large civilizations but large city states. Situated along or near those former ice age coast lines and they had to uproot and move inland because the oceans rising and covered them which may have happened in a combination of rapid large surges coupled with a slow progressive rise in ocean levels both, scenarios could have happened within the time frame we are speaking of.

History of India Isolated remains of Homo erectus in Hathnora in the Narmada Valley in Central India indicate that India might have been inhabited since at least the Middle Pleistocene era, somewhere between 200,000 to 500,000 years ago.[5][6] Most traces of the out of Africa migration along the shores of the Indian Ocean seem to have been lost. Due to flooding in the post-Ice Age period, recent finds in Tamil Nadu (at c. 75,000 years ago, before and after the explosion of the Toba volcano) indicate the presence of the first anatomically modern humans in the area.

The Mesolithic period in the Indian subcontinent covered a time span of around 25,000 years, starting around 30,000 years ago. More extensive settlement of the subcontinent occurred after the end of the last Ice Age, or approximately 12,000 years ago. The first confirmed permanent settlements appeared 9,000 years ago in the Rock Shelters of Bhimbetka in modern Madhya Pradesh, India. Early Neolithic culture in South Asia is represented by the Mehrgarh findings (7000 BCE onwards) in present day Balochistan, Pakistan. Traces of a Neolithic culture have been found submerged in the Gulf of Khambat in India, radiocarbon dated to 7500 BCE.[7] The Edakkal Caves has one of the earliest exmples of stone age writing. Late Neolithic cultures sprang up in the Indus Valley region between 6000 and 2000 BCE and in southern India between 2800 and 1200 BCE.

We always hear the saying that in all myths there is a tiny kernel of truth. I remember the ancient Indian myth about how one of their Gods built Rama's bridge or the ancient traditions of India itself that explain that Manu and the Seven Sages retreated to the Himalayas from a place that was not the Himalayas at the time of a terrible oceanic flood, and that they brought with them from their antediluvian homeland not only the Vedas but also all the 'seeds' that would be necessary to re-establish permanent food-producing settlements.

Whether this land bridge is manmade structure or just the top of a low lying mountain ridge that was eventually covered by the rising oceans and later built upon makes no difference to me. But what is surprising is that they knew about it and it wasn't until NASA was able to show it that the myths genesis was revealed.

The out of Africa route is the proven theory. However the dating gets really fuzzy when we go back beyond 40000 BC. Due to Radio Carbon dating methods

limitations.

Many megalithic sites create real problems for archaeologists when they attempt to date them. It's funny how many leave that crucial bit of critical information out when they state that a theory that does not fit into the accepted timeline is wrong.

They cannot date Stones

Once a stone is cut and put into place there is no way to date when that occurred so in order to find out the date of such locations they search for other clues mainly carbon from village camp fires, grave sites etc. Who’s to say that those locations are not from village campsites or migration through that area that occurred thousands of years after the stone structures were erected? I know its pure conjecture on my part.

Radiocarbon Dating Limitations Because the decay rate is logarithmic, radiocarbon dating has significant upper and lower limits. It is not very accurate for fairly recent deposits. In recent deposits so little

decay has occurred that the error factor (the standard deviation) may be larger than the date obtained. The practical upper limit is about 50,000 years, because so little C-14 remains after almost 9 half-lives that it may be hard to detect and obtain an accurate reading, regardless of the size of the sample.

Harappan civilization

There is very little concrete proof that Dwarka was actually a part of that civilization. There are very many similarities between the two. But to the untrained eye so are the similarities between ROME and Greece. However it does prove again what I have been speculating in that Dwarka was a separate and older location and was submerged before the Harappan showed up pretty much out of nowhere. Again we had "myths" first that were passed down surrounding its location. Then we had scientific proof later of their existence. Remember there is very little if any evidence of a development stage like what we see in Egypt.

Yet the Harappan had indoor plumbing, sewage and water storage. The city street layouts were extremely well thought. With detailed infrastructure supposedly at the earliest point in their existence. Where do you suppose that early development phase took place if not there then where? It had to have had a development phase and location. So far there have been no big discoveries on land. We do however have a very real possibility of a much older location just off the coast that does not fly in the face of other sciences about this possibility.

Harappan Civilization One of the most fascinating yet mysterious cultures of the ancient world is the Harappan civilization. This culture existed along the Indus River in present day Pakistan. It was named after the city of Harappa which it was centered around. Harappa and the city of Mohenjo-Daro were the greatest achievements of the Indus valley civilization. These cities are well known for their impressive, organized and regular layout. Over one hundred other towns and villages also existed in this region. The Harappan people were literate and used the Dravidian language. Only part of this language has been deciphered today, leaving numerous questions about this civilization unanswered.

Harrapan origin theories There are several theories as to the origin of the Indus Valley civilization. The earliest hypothesis was that it was an early form of a Vedic civilization which would come to dominate most of South Asia, which was presumed to have been characterized by influence from Indo-European migrations. However, this theory began to be rejected when no signs of the traditional culture associated with the Vedas was uncovered in that of the Indus Valley. The absence of horses amongst the many realistic representations of animals was also considered significant, considering the importance of horses and chariots to the culture described in the Vedas. Detailed bone analysis has revealed that the horse itself was introduced to the subcontinent only at the beginning of the second

millennium B.C., which contributes to the chronological problem with this theory.[35][36] Finally, the concept of urban life which dominates the Indus Valley civilization is foreign to the more rural lifestyle which is described in the Vedas.[37]

The next theory put forward was that the civilization was of proto-Dravidian origin.[38] This theory was first proposed by researchers from Russia and Finland who attempted to show that Indus valley symbols could be derived from the Dravidian language group. Today, the Dravidian language family is concentrated mostly in southern India and northern Sri Lanka, but pockets of it still remain throughout the rest of India and Pakistan (the Brahui language), which lends credence to the theory. Finnish Indologist Asko Parpola concludes that the uniformity of the Indus inscriptions precludes any possibility of widely different languages being used, and that an early form of Dravidian language must have been the language of the Indus people. However, the proto-Dravidian origin theory is far from being confirmed due to an emphasis on linguistic connection while evidence of a broader cultural connection remains to be found.[37]

Geneticist:

On one hand we have a very real genetic lineage of the Aboriginals of Australia tied to some blood lines in India this line was established over 60.000 to 70.000 years ago and some have argued as old as 80.000 years. They didn't sail there so the most obvious route would be coastal migration along the now sunken Indian coast. The exact location we are discussing.

DNA confirms coastal trek to AustraliaDNA evidence linking Indian tribes to Australian Aboriginal people supports the theory humans arrived in Australia from Africa via a southern coastal route through India, say researchers. The research, lead by Dr Raghavendra Rao from the Anthropological Survey of India, is published in the current edition of BMC Evolutionary Biology. One theory is that modern humans arrived in Australia via an inland route through central Asia but Rao says most scientists believe modern humans arrived via the coast of South Asia. Skeletal remains, dating back between 40-60,000 years from Lake Mungo in New South Wales, also support the theory that modern human arrived in Australia at least as far back as this, he says.

Let's go further East from here, Australia.

Again keep in mind the light blue areas were exposed land when the oceans where as much as 130m lower than they are now. There would have been vast areas that were exposed dry land around the time in question.

Pleistocene The Pleistocene (pronounced /ˈplaɪstəsiːn/) is the epoch from 2.588 million to 12 000 years BP covering the world's recent period of repeated glaciations.

Each glacial advance tied up huge volumes of water in continental ice sheets 1500–3000 m thick, resulting in temporary sea level drops of 100 m or more over the entire surface of the Earth. During interglacial times, such as at present, drowned coastlines were common, mitigated by isostatic or other emergent motion of some regions.

Earliest Australian THE FIRST INHABITANTS : Last May, the Australian National University released this photograph, taken in 1974, of the skeleton of a man from Lake Mungo, NSW which the university has now dated at between 56,000 and 68,000 years old. Previously, the remains had been dated at just 30,000 years old. REUTERS FILE PHOTO

Interesting tibit Australian Institute of Marine Science (AIMS) researchers have opened a window into the past by exposing ancient mangrove forests entombed beneath the Great Barrier Reef. AIMS biologist Dr Dan Alongi said the expedition was surveying the impact of nutrients on coastal inshore areas when scientists unearthed mangrove forests in old river channels they believe may snake for 30 kilometres to the edge of the continental shelf. Scientists have long theorised that sea level rose very gradually over several thousand years, but these remnant mangrove forests tell another story. While it was previously known that relic river beds exist beneath the Great Barrier Reef, formed 9000 years ago when the sea level was lower than the continental shelf, their significance was never studied.

"When we took the first samples it was difficult to believe… we stood amazed wondering what exactly we were dealing with. We thought it was cyclone debris, but it was far too

deep to be a modern event," said Dr Alongi. AIMS researchers cored 1-2 metres of sediment and found remnant mangrove 70 centimetres below the surface of the present seafloor. These core samples of mud are an evolutionary time frame. The evidence will help to establish the state of the reef and nutrient sediment information as it existed prior to human activity. Dr Alongi said the mangroves were incredibly well preserved; a fact most likely attributed to the antibiotic properties in the concentrated tannins. "The cores still have the characteristic smell of tannins, that’s why we thought they were young.

"Within the cores were intact root systems and parts of trees including twigs and branches that radiocarbon dating put between 8550 and 8740 years of age. "There’s such an abrupt change in core composition from mud-like substance to intact mangrove branches…from the modern to the ancient, that it suggests a large climate change happened," said Dr Alongi.

Land bridge

Migration was achieved during the closing stages of the Pleistocene, when sea levels were much lower than they are today. Repeated episodes of extended glaciation during

the Pleistocene epoch, resulted in decreases of sea levels by more than 100 metres in Australasia. The continental coastline extended much further out into the Timor Sea, and Australia and New Guinea formed a single landmass (known as Sahul), connected by an extensive land bridge across the Arafura Sea, Gulf of Carpentaria and Torres Strait. Nevertheless, the sea still presented a major obstacle so it is theorised that these ancestral people reached Australia by island hopping. Two routes have been proposed. One follows an island chain between Sulawesi and New Guinea and the other reaches North Western Australia via Timor.

The sharing of animal and plant species between Australia-New Guinea and nearby Indonesian islands is another consequence of the early land bridges, which closed when sea levels rose with the end of the last glacial period. The sea level stabilised to near its present levels about 6000 years ago, flooding the land bridge between Australia and New Guinea.

Climatology and Geology:

The two sciences that offer collaboration is Climatology and Geology both sciences have proven these locations where at one time dry land and well before that 10.000 year mark.

Sea Level Rise, After the Ice Melted and Today Massive ice sheets covered parts of North America, northern Europe, and several other regions during the last ice age. This huge volume of ice lowered global sea level by around 120 meters as compared to today. After the ice sheets began to melt and retreat, sea level rose rapidly, with several periods of even faster spurts. The first such spurt may have started about 19,000 years ago, at which time ocean levels rose 10-15 m in less than 500 years. However, this event is not seen in all past sea level records and new evidence suggests that ice melting may have begun much earlier.

A more clearly-defined accelerated phase of sea level rise occurred between 14,600 to 13,500 years before present (termed "meltwater pulse 1A" or "MWP-1A" by Fairbanks in 1989), when sea level increased by some 16 to 24 m (see Figure 1). Although the meltwater was previously believed to have come chiefly from Antarctica, a recent reconstruction by Tarasov and Peltier of ice sheet retreat using a glacial model calibrated by a variety of data points instead to a largely North American source. Furthermore, diatom fossils in sediments from fjords in East Antarctica show that ice melting there began perhaps 3000 years later, thus ruling out Antarctica as a likely source.

Myth vs. mythology

First off I will say that I do not believe most of the mythology surrounding such claims. I do however feel that hidden within those tales is again the tiniest kernel of fact.

Separate the wheat from the chaff?

Mythology in my opinion is the result of nothing more than a giant game of telephone played by school children. As you know where they all line up in a straight row and the child at the front of the line whispers something into the ear of the child next to them and they in turn pass the message down in the same manner and so on.

By the time it gets to the end the last child reveals what was whispered in their ear most often it has very little similarity if any at all to what the first child whispered at the front of the line. Now imagine passing down a tale of a massive coastal flooding where their whole city/village was destroyed. Being primitives they would have said many things were the cause most likely the wrath of god. To them their "whole world" was flooded as they knew it. If we read a Greek story in their mythology about how Zeus was angry one day at the people so he took out his wrath on them where the sky thundered and lightning bolts flew from his arse does this mean that on that day there wasn't a horribly destructive naturally occurring thunder and lightning storm which they later made a tale to explain it?

I can't understand modern academia's resistance to the possibility of such sites. When if we step back and separate the Myth's from the equation and look at it in a purely scientific manor it makes sense.

Relevance? Correlation?

It proves hands down that a city/civilization can be lost to time. That the Oceans can

reclaim land that once held a civilization. It proves that one time myths are sometimes based on facts. It shows us that we don't know everything about human history. It also demonstrates that if we are to expand our knowledge and understanding of mans past we really need to start looking off the coast all around the planet.

I feel that we are potentially missing huge chunks of our history simply because the oceans rose during the last of the ice age melt off and reclaimed the land on which the earliest signs of human development once stood.

I'd say it's very relevant.

End of Part 1. Stay tuned for part 2…

We will be continuing our exploration of a possible lost past as we head North from Australia into Japan, Korea and China then East into the Americas and finally end up in Europe and Central Asia.

Neanderthal vs. Homosapien

[edit on 23-9-2009 by SLAYER69]

signatureOrigins of Atlantis/Lemuria Myths Part-1 Origins of Atlantis/Lemuria Myths Part-2

Origins of Atlantis/Lemuria Myths Part-2

Hello again.

Before we continue with Part-2. Let me just say to those of you who are just joining us for the first time on this journey into a possible lost past of human history, That I would highly recommend reading Origins of Atlantis/Lemuria Myths Part-1 first. We will be picking up directly where Part 1 left off.

As before while we explore please keep in mind and remember that this is set forth as theory and conjecture not as fact. However I will be again interjecting some facts as we move forward mixed with speculation. You may draw your own conclusions. In Origins of Atlantis/Lemuria Myths Part-1 I laid out the facts that during the last ice age the ocean levels were much lower than they are now, up to as much as 130 meters or 426 feet lower. Which exposed vast amounts of coastal territory that is presently submerged just off the coasts that we know today. Coastal migrations seems to be the accepted theory. BUT..Which coasts? The present day one or the now submerged one which were exposed during the last ice age period?

Mans sunken heritage

In Part-1 we left off heading North from Australia towards Southeast Asia which is our first stop. We will then reference locations in China, Korea and Japan. So get your hot cup of coffee or again if you're like me a Scotch and let us begin.

Southeast Asia

Southeast Asia Homo sapiens reached the region by around 45,000 years ago.[16] Homo floresiensis seems to have shared some islands with modern humans until only 12,000 years ago, when they became extinct.[17] Austronesian people, who form the majority of the modern population in Indonesia and the Philippines, migrated to South East Asia from Taiwan. They arrived in Indonesia around 2000 BCE, and as they spread through the archipelago, confined the native Melanesian peoples to the far eastern regions.[18]

Austronesian people A study by Leeds University and published in Molecular Biology and Evolution, showed that mitochondrial DNA lineages have been evolving within Island Southeast Asia (ISEA) since modern humans arrived approximately 50,000 years ago. Population dispersals occurred at the same time as sea levels rose, which resulted in migrations from the Philippine Islands to as far north as Taiwan within the last 10,000 years.[13]

Homo-Sapien reached the region approximately 45,000 years ago. Homo floresiensis died out around 12,000 years ago. I find it very interesting that that's right around the

period of the end of the ice age. 10,000 BC. coincidence? Possibly. I postulate that when the oceans rose the two bipedal species clashed and competed for the same resources. I suspect that there will not be any major discoveries of a stone age development period in the area as we find in other locations around the globe. At least not on land.

Japan

Ancient JapanJapanese Archipelago appeared with a Paleolithic culture around 30,000 BC, followed from around 14,000 BC by the Jomon period, a Mesolithic to Neolithic semi-sedentary hunter-gatherer (possibly Ainu)[16] culture of pit dwelling and a rudimentary form of agriculture. Decorated clay vessels from this period, often with plaited patterns, are some of the oldest surviving examples of pottery in the world.

So an early Paleolithic culture that was later followed by a primitive Hunter-gatherer culture some how made it to the islands of Japan. I have to stop and ask myself this. How did a Paleolithic people who predated the primitive "Hunter-Gatherers" get to Japan in the first place? By Boat? I suspect they walked. Referencing this Google Earth image below, We can clearly see that while the oceans were lower during the ending periods of the last ice age the land in question that is presently submerged would have been dry. Again the light blue areas are the ancient dry coast lines.

Now I'm going to stop here and discuss the supposed sunken Japanese megalithic site known as the Yonaguni Monument. One would think that since this is a thread regarding possible sunken history and while discussing Japan that these two would go hand in hand. I disagree. The Yonaguni site is very interesting and does have some rather unusual anomalies. However It has not been proven yet as an actual archeological site.

Intersting discoveries at Yonaguni. Could they be man made?

Interesting to say the least. There are other locations in Japan on land that very intriguing

Megaliths of Kanayama

This site is believed to date back to the early Jomon period, possibly 10,000 or more years ago.

This a very impressive example of Ancient Japans megalithic period. Ishibutai, Japan A detailed study has been made of the construction of the Japanese megalithic tomb of Ishibutai; which is by no means the largest of Japanese megaliths, but is certainly one of the largest tombs. Ishibutai has a rectangular chamber measuring 25ft by 11ft by 15ft high approached by a passage 38ft in length, and roofed by two capstones each weighing between 60 and 70 tons each.

China

China-Prehistory The earliest evidence of a fully modern human in China comes from Liujiang County, Guangxi, where a cranium has been found and dated at approximately 67,000 years old. Although much controversy persists over the dating of the Liujiang remains,

Paleolithic China Three pottery pieces were unearthed at Liyuzui Cave in Liuzhou, Guangxi Province dated 16,500 and 19,000 BC

OK, Now I had to pause and think about to how to approach China. The history there is so vast and almost overwhelming. Suffice it to say that one could dedicate 10 or more threads to China's ancient past and still not have covered every detail. Suffice it to say that there is a continuing similarity in China with the other Ancient locations. It seems that in China as well those earliest locations were either near the coast or along rivers. Having said that. I did find this next tidbit rather interesting.

The early history of China is made obscure by the lack of written documents from this period, coupled with the existence of accounts written during later time periods that attempted to describe events that had occurred several centuries previously. In a sense, the problem stems from centuries of introspection on the part of the Chinese people, which has blurred the distinction between fact and fiction in regards to this early history.

Fact of Fiction? That sounded rather ominous. Remember in Part-1 I discussed Myths? How it is generally accepted that in every Myth there is usually the tiniest kernel of truth. What about Ancient Chinese flood myths?

Flood myths China There are many sources of flood legends in ancient Chinese literature. Some appear to refer to a worldwide deluge but most versions record only a regional flood - a number of them have a theme of men taming floods caused by hostile nature gods, some based on historical events

Korea

Korea Prehistory The Korean Academy of North America discovered ancient human fossils originating from about 100,000 BC in the lava at a stone city site in Korea. Fluorescent and high-magnetic analyses indicate the volcanic fossils may be from as early as 300,000 BC.[4] The best preserved Korean pottery goes back to the paleolithic times around 10,000 BC, and the Neolithic period begins around 6000 BC.

Ancient Korea The traces of ancient Korea can be found forty or fifty thousand years back. The small group of people who were the residents of the ancient Korea at that time were Paleolithic peoples. These races of people depended on hunting and fishing for their survival. The traces of the existence of Neolithic communities can be found in the ancient Korea at around 4000 B.C. The remains of dressed stone equipments prove the existence of distinct pottery cultures in Korea. The people of ancient Korea believed in shamanism who grouped themselves in kins.

I need to stop here and discuss Standing Stones and Dolmens. Most people are familiar with the Dolmens strewn throughout the UK and Greater Europe. There are literally thousands of sites. However they are also found in India, Jordon, Turkey and Russia. The Russian Dolmens are my favorite. They remind me of the Flintsones house. The majority of Russian Dolmens tend to have a small round opening through which they had to crawl to enter or exit. Take a good hard look at this one. We will be revisiting this type of Dolmen later.

Korean Dolmens The 'Ganghwa Dolmens' Korea has the highest concentration of dolmens in the world, with over 30,000, possessing between 40% and 50% of the worlds total. The island of Ganghwa contains several dolmens, one of which has the biggest recorded stone in South Korea and measures at 2.6 x 7.1 x 5.5 meters. (101.53 m³) The Ganghwa dolmen are accredited with capstones weighing 300 tons (28) at Gochang.

I was wanting to post a rather interesting map I had found online but when my hard drive

crashed I lost the image. It showed that the majority of the oldest Dolmen locations were along the coast.

North America

DISCLAIMER To date, no consistent pre-Clovis cultural patterns have been established and the accuracy of these claims have been found controversial and unverified. I however included them for argument sake.

Researchers, led by UO archaeologist, find pre-Clovis human DNA DNA from dried human excrement recovered from Oregon's Paisley Caves is the oldest found yet in the New World -- dating to 14,300 years ago, some 1,200 years before Clovis culture -- and provides apparent genetic ties to Siberia or Asia, according to an international team of 13 scientists.

Among the researchers is Dennis L. Jenkins, a senior archaeologist with the University of Oregons Museum of Natural and Cultural History, whose summer field expeditions over two summers uncovered a variety of artifacts in caves that had caught the scientific attention of the UOs Luther Cressman in the 1930s.

Topper Topper is an archaeological site located along the Savannah River in Allendale County, South Carolina in the United States. It is noted as the location of controversial artifacts believed by some archaeologists to indicate human habitation of the New World as far back as 50,000 years ago.

Monte Verde Monte Verde is an archaeological site in south-central Chile, which has been dated to 14,500 years before present.[1] It pre-dates the earliest known Clovis culture site of Clovis, New Mexico, by 1000 years, contradicting the previously accepted "Clovis model" which holds that settlement of the Americas began after 13,500 years before present. As such the Monte Verde findings were initially dismissed by most of the scientific community, but in recent years the evidence has been widely accepted,[2][3] although vocal "Clovis-first" advocates remain.[4]

Cactus Hill

Cactus Hill is an archaeological site in the U.S. state of Virginia. It lies in the southeastern part of the state on the Nottoway River roughly 45 miles south of Richmond. The site, owned by the International Paper Corporation, is situated on sand dunes above the river. The site has yielded multiple levels of early occupation. Archaic stage material is underlain by fluted stone tools associated with the Clovis culture dated to 10,920 BP. A lower level yields artifacts including unfluted bifacial stone tools with dates ranging from c. 15,000 to 17,000 years ago. White pine charcoal from a hearth context on this level dates to 15,070 radiocarbon years BP[1]. Further charcoal deposits retrieved at the site date to as early as 19,700 years ago, although these deposits may have been made by forest fires.Cactus Hill is arguably the oldest archaeological dig in North America.

Media @ AboveTopSecret.com Home Page

Pro Videos  |  Top-Rated Videos  |  Most-Watched Videos

Now before we begin there needs to be a clarification on the misconception that the Americas had no ancient culture or history, that the native peoples of the Americas were primitive savages. It has finally been agreed that there have been several "Cradle Civilizations" in the world not just the Fertile Crescent. If you'll notice they show locations in Mesoamerica as well as the Pacific coast of South America. The one thing that bugs me about this map is that In Mesoamerica they mention the "Mayan and Aztecs" Meanwhile the Olmec where there long before the others.

If you wish to discuss and or debate Clovis please feel free to do so in one of my other threads Ancient America Rocked!

Olmec The Olmec were an ancient Pre-Columbian people living in the tropical lowlands of south-central Mexico, in what are roughly the modern-day states of Veracruz and Tabasco. The Olmec flourished during Mesoamerica's Formative period, dating roughly from 1400 BCE to about 400 BCE. They were the first Mesoamerican civilization and laid many of the foundations for the civilizations that followed.[1] Among other "firsts", there is evidence that the Olmec practiced ritual bloodletting and played the Mesoamerican ballgame, hallmarks of nearly all subsequent Mesoamerican societies.

The most familiar aspect of the Olmecs is their artwork, particularly the aptly-named colossal heads.[2] In fact, the Olmec civilization was first defined through artifacts purchased on the pre-Columbian art market in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Olmec artworks are considered among ancient America's most striking and beautiful, and among the world's masterpieces.[3]

Interesting variations

There has been speculation that the colossal heads the Olmec left behind are proof of an ancient African connection. For further discussion and or debate please reference my other thread Olmec Giant Stone Heads Mystery Solved?. They also left behind other ruins that raises some rather interesting questions.

These boys look a tad bit Egyptian in appearance to me.

Now here is where it gets rather interesting. Lost Civilization?

Most if not all the major Olmec stone carvings that survive to this day show massive amounts of damage in some form. It has been speculated that the damage was caused by rivals or later cultures defacing their work. My question is this. Wouldn't it have been easier to have chiseled off the inscriptions and carvings than trying to break them apart?

No, I theorize the reason why these stone carvings were heavily damaged and strewn throughout the jungle is possibly due to some form a titanic destructive force leaving only these few sculptures. Maybe a huge Volcanic eruption followed by a huge tsunami could have ripped apart ancient temples and flung them all over the surrounding area. Pure speculation on my part.

Does anybody remember the following image? It caused quite a stir when it was first released. It shows the destruction of a civilization from a tremendous volcanic eruption followed by flooding. Could this depiction and the Olmec ruins be proof of that titanic destruction?

Do you see the remnant of a arm near the top-center of this one?

Remember our favorite Russian Dolmen?

Could just be my imagination but it reminded me of this Olmec carving.

We need to consider that although the Olmec were famous for their Giant Stone Head sculptures they were also the oldest Central American culture and seemed to have built the most advanced pyramids way before the Mayan and Aztecs.

The Great Pyramid of Cholula, also known as Tlachihualtepetl (Nahuatl for "artificial mountain"), is a huge complex located in Cholula, Puebla, Mexico. It is the world's largest monument and largest Pre-Columbian pyramid by volume.

Cholula is most famous as the site of the Great Pyramid of Cholula, the largest man-made pyramid and monument by volume in the world. The temple-pyramid complex was built in four stages, starting from the 3rd century BCE through the 9th century CE, and was dedicated to the deity Quetzalcoatl.

It is the Oldest and Largest. It is also more advanced than all the rest that followed. This small section below is only the small base entrance into the great pyramid..

Now if you consider that this is just the small first steps of the pyramid it then really becomes amazing when you consider the age.

Here is what some believe the complex looks like if it would be completely excavated.

Now compare the above to this well known pyramid also located in the area supposedly from a much later period.

Pyramid of the Sun History The name Pyramid of the Sun comes from the Aztecs, who visited the city of Teotihuacan centuries after it was abandoned; the name given to the pyramid by the Teotihuacan's is unknown.

Before we push south we need to talk about the supposed ruins off of Cuba.

Caribbean yields up sunken 'lost city' Havana - Explorers using a miniature submarine off the coast of Cuba said on Thursday they had confirmed the discovery of stone structures deep below the surface that may have been built by an unknown civilization thousands of years ago.

Again one would think that like the supposed sunken ruins off of Japan it should also be in a thread that is discussing possible lost and or sunken civilizations. But again this is as of yet unconfirmed. So until there is proof positive it and also the Bimini road for that matter are legitimate archeological sites it simply does not fit. We can look at those ancient Ice age coast lines again. Is there a possible Dry "Ice age" coastal location for a ancient Caribbean sunken civilization? There seems to be some circumstantial evidence in the positive.

South America

There have been quite a few threads already done on the better known Ancient South American Cultures. I'll touch on the even older ones. Many predate the well known locations by a few thousand years.

Pre-Inca Observatory Is Oldest in Americas, Study Says A mysterious set of monuments in Peru make up the oldest solar observatory in the Americas, according to a new study. The 2,300-year-old Thirteen Towers of Chankillo

were used for marking the sun's position throughout the year—an activity that was part of the sun-worshipping culture of the Inca, the study authors said. The large stone towers are arranged in a line along a ridge near Chankillo, a walled hilltop ruin north of Lima.

Here's an interesting bit of info. Pedra Furada (Brazil) Contested Late Pleistocene Site Pedra Furada's Controversy The original excavators (led by Fabio Parenti) reported two phases, one with several stacked layers dated between 48,000 and 14,300 years before the present (BP), and one dated later than 10,400 BP. Some scholars believe that dates before 10,400 may represent natural fire events, and that 'flaked pebbles' are 'geofacts', essentially quartz pebbles that dropped into the cave over time. Parenti and colleagues argue that the stacked C14 dates represent deliberate hearths, and that deliberate flaking of the pebbles is in evidence.

Caral

Caral: The Earliest Civilization in the New World The Seeds of the Inca

Early in 2001, a site located on the Pacific coast of Peru which had been known for over a hundred years made headlines all over the world. The site of Caral and the cluster of

eighteen similarly dated sites located in the Supe Valley included in what is now called the Caral-Supe Civilization are important because together they represent the earliest known urban settlement in the Americas--nearly 4600 years before the present.

By contrast, the Inca state rose during the 15th century AD; the Nasca Empire about 0 AD; Teotihuacan first flowered ca. 200 BC; Monte Albán about 500 BC; Chavín society 1000 BC; Olmec society 1200 BC. The culture represented by the Supe valley sites dates as early as 2600 BC, when Khufu was building the pyramids at Giza.

Caral History Caral was inhabited between roughly 2600 BCE and 2000 BCE, enclosing an area of 66 hectares.[2] Caral was described by its excavators as the oldest urban center in the Americas, a claim that was later challenged as other ancient sites were found nearby. Accommodating more than 3,000 inhabitants, it is the best studied and one of the largest Norte Chico sites known.

Norte Chico civilization The radiocarbon work of Jonathan Haas et al., found that 10 of 95 samples taken in the Pativilca and Fortaleza areas dated from before 3500 BC; the oldest, dating from 9210 BC, provides "limited indication" of human settlement during the Pre-Columbian Early Archaic era.

I have added three videos on the fairly recent discoveries at Caral and how it is so important to the history of South America. What hasn't been determined yet is the genetic make up of Carals populous. Polynesian connection? Stay tuned.

Media @ AboveTopSecret.com Home Page

Pro Videos  |  Top-Rated Videos  |  Most-Watched Videos

Media @ AboveTopSecret.com Home Page

Pro Videos  |  Top-Rated Videos  |  Most-Watched Videos

Media @ AboveTopSecret.com Home Page

Pro Videos  |  Top-Rated Videos  |  Most-Watched Videos

Well this ends Part-2. If have missed your favorite location or topic please feel to post pictures, links and any other information you want to contribute. We will continue the rest of our journey with Part-3. Which by the way is already completed. I wrote Part-3 simultaneously with Part-2.

I will post that one after this thread runs it's course. {Maybe in a week or two} Don't worry I already have it backed up in triplicate this time. We will be headed to Europe, Eastern Europe and a much more in depth look at the Ancient Mediterranean civilizations. And Yes, we will finally discuss Homo Sapien vs Neanderthal. Again thank you for your patience.