,

='=:::;;=======1

, ON'

:LABOUR~f;IN ,INDIA' - . ~'

-ORAL EVIDENCE BOMBAY PRESiDENCY

~n'. I-Part II

. '~'N

ROYAL COMMISSION ON

LABOUR IN INDIA ... ,

ORAL EVIDENCE BOMBAY PRESIDENCY

< ,Vol. I-Part II

BOMBAY I'IUNTRlI AT THE GOVr-:RNMJ.::o."'T CENTRAL PRESS

19"JO

X : ~ 2 .IV2-c;;t .

F~ .l'~ ,

I 0 107 .

.- --"

TAKEIr BBFOBIl 'fII& " ,

ROYAL COMMISSION ON LABOUR

IN lNDIA BOMBAY PRESIDENCY ~

FIRST TllEETING KARACHI

Wednesday, 1~tD.OctOJ,er 1~ l'uslnlT:

The IU. ROD. :1. lL WIIlTLSY (C~).

The R'. R .... v. So SBnn>" ..... !UsmJ. e.R., p,e.

Sir ISH'my R~ Xt . K.C.S~. CJ.E.

Sir At.Bulhey ...... and the ___ ollaboar.

A-4 lIa.- yea any tabulated dde=en\ !-y-. I bve go&; it in. ftMIgh fonD. ; Inri I m.n lrift yoa sCalemen' at the ....arioua kiDda ol elllpIoyeee coming from. diftenDt __ ;( yoa _ like to han i'-

A-6. ThaI. wiD MiD. w:t"eetitMt of wita.t 7- b..., Wd .. !-Y,.; I will gne yeo tM oe-.l &gm.. '

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A-6. There is ODe point I should partioulady like to uk you whether that -record 1tb.ows the number of people who return over and over again to your- work: f-No.

A7. Then at each. re-engagemeut after they have been book home they are. as far as you are concerned, new labonr t-Y e6, that is right. The only thing we are intereated in ia the increase in the numbers. We wa.ut numbers~ if we can get them.

A-S_ Would you ten Us how you p~y the oontr&ctoro f Ant they paid monthly f-The oontraoton are paid M often B8 we can poaaibly meaaure u~ their work.. The work is. meaaured up onee .. month if the contractor is .. man. Wlth big oa.pital; otherwUe if he ia a man with small capita.l we meaau.se up ODce a week if neceu&ry. Our aim is to keep the small contratltor if possible, and meaanre his work &8 often &II he wanta money.

AD. You have no knowledge of or reaponaihility for the method by which the men them.aelves are pa.id by the contractors f-No. As mentioned in my written statemeut complainta loon come to US if the people &1'9 not being paid properly~ They come up in numbera before the Government officer and la, ,. we ha.ve been awindled U or .. under~ paid by the contractor". We then get hold 0 the oontr&etor, U8e our- good offices and Q8 that things are put right. We have no real power to make tbe oontractor deal sqaarely with his labour, hut I think that on the whole. when we take him to task 'Severely and ten him that there is trouble ahead of him. he ffill!. into line with n8 and triea to oorrect his waY"

A~10. Is the ohief complaint tllat payment is delayed too long I-No,"'" The chief ~ompl&int it ahoutswindling over the measurements of work done by each group O'f labour. Generally they wGrk in groups of 10 or 15. Practically all the work ia done on pieee~ 'Work eynem. The contractor puta just a few men Gil a muater to dO' miscellaneous workp .and those men, I think. aTe pa.id fa.irly regularly; otherwise he could not get them, fGr no one wanta to go on a muster.

A"H. Does he pay monthly, fortnightly O'r weekly ?-1 think he pays them weekly. It iB a very small p&yment becaoae m06t of the people a.re indebted to him j he hu given 'them very heavy adv.ncea; :,tlaya them only a little just a day before the bazaar 1M' grain aDd settles up his 80 &oOO1ID:ta a.t the end of the 8eaa6n" .

A12. Bow long do you a.nticipate the constructional work will continue !-It will oontinuetilll9M. The great bulk of it will be finished iD June 1932when'W'aterwill be let into the oanala. After that it will be a matter of (lompleting outlym,: and miacei

. laneoua works. We are aiming at ha.ving in the yefit 1932 something like 400,000 units,. if w.pouibly .....

A-IS. 'What mea.ning do you attach to the word n unite" in that connection 1-lt meen. !&bo .. employed throughout the yeer. W. take the monthly totals end add them up. As I ,aid, we hope to get 4OO,OOO~ I have BOme figuree if they will be of interest to you. _

A-I4.. That will be the :maximum on oomtructioneJ lPOJ'ktJ f-Yee,. that it what we wa.nt on oonstruotional work.

A-I4&. The pply 01 !&honr hall been I ... I,hen 'you could employ I~o .. iderably Jess. loangiveYOllolleortwo:6gures, In 1926 oar maximum in llnYonemon~hwaa 16.271 in the month of Fehruary 1926. 0 .. miDimum ..... in Augnat 19211. 6,769. The total number of unita on themonthlybaais for the year waa9"1,OOO. In 1927 oar ma:rimum. was 16,154., which wae rather len than thepreviou.. year; bat the monthly average waa more because we had 142.291 units as against 97,000 for tbe previOWf. yea.r. In 1928 our monthly maximum rose to 26,024.. oW' minimum to 12,376. The total ~ployment fer that year was. 22{),944. For this year" oar monthly maximum rose to 38.000 in the month of !larch and the minimum 10 far (up to the end of July) was

19~600, whioh is greator than our m.nmuw in 1921. Thtt total Dumber of uuite ~mployed is 2Ol),866 for seven mouth. 'Of this year. So we shaJi probably get olose upon 300,000 thia year.

A-16. 1 am notquitle ilieMyet how you reokon the-unit. The le.rgeetnumberemployed at one tim. hitherto is 36,000 !-Yes, thet ill right_ Correctly i. is 38,300.

A-1ft. How do you convert the.t into units '-I h&n t&ken each month', figures and .... dad them up. end to get the average divided them by 12.

A-I? Jlf'. Cli./!: That comea to S8,.OOOin enemonth ?-Ye.. This year, formtance. in January it was 28.907. in February 35,037; in March. 38,~ in April31,72t, in M;ay 30,000 odd, in J1IIUI20,OOO odd end in Ju~ 19,000 add_ Thet to~ up to 206,856 which ia the ~ I ga .. yo. juet DOW_

A-I8- PAe ONi,.",..: I notice that you. IDggest that aome of tbese workeJJJ ma.y become settlere wben your echeme is completed ?-Y ea.,

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.!.-III. Wh ... your ""he",..'" rompleted. will ~"l'."" be gi_ to thoae .. ho ha ... -.... n ,,~ OIl oonst

~=::"-~"A= ~e~:;"-=~put.~~:-~'-::: .~tIaat.~ I'i . tel ~

A-3iL l_it __ nay ___ -w.for __ iDl .... _.IibonI _ __ ?-No. n_,. ... __ 1_ h".... wi ... tile ~~_; nO &blia DOt tile eMe,.. ~ propIe~. 0dI0at: is ~,wIteIt titey an adb"l" IJt.eir .... _,...,.-,.-___ liIoen.l..-_I_

A-33..II.,.I_n_~eumpIe" __ il_"'~"' __ Act ~I t.lWt.k it ..--ld be posiWe UIIIl it is .... - He

A-M. T ......... _Ia ......... "... ~!-I ___ .. ~ .... _ r....a..r_"' ......... __ ....... ...-.. I_i. __ .. _ ....... ba ........ _~ ~ ... aII .. p. _10 ....... _ ~ ~GLditicwr.,.. _we"Me i:a Sial.. 1_ eeadin.. ftidt aft'DOI aamped ... ill fadorie&. I ilUnk dteft shoaid be ... ftai........ We.-W IItOft' ~ ia th~ ...... of wd' *. th &cope of Ute Act..

A-35. Hant,..... My ~_ to .................... _1 ........ _ .. '' be kough, _the Ad!-1 will'" ,..... ...... a ""PY 01...,. __ ..... bjocl to u.. _",'0I.1ndia. Tb.-y __ abeody"-'" ~ 01. iDa - g tI>e .... _ the A.... I wiII_ . pcUl 0I.....m.g il "':r--""'-

A-3L 'numk,.... ihat 1I"Orlld _ ws8aL Yoa My: "Xo .~hIa imjWuceeeal iD _.fficieDc-yol~GD_ ...... oIwwkdoalt wilh by_"-Me ___ iD ~t ~.. And thea ill reply 10 oar ~~ 'U!lderthat ~ .. :o ...

~ medodls eI ~ ~ ~KYyoc.y: UEdao!:atioa of tIae ...... to tab a gre-ater prid& ill ---.llahoar &!e1II8 to me tile 0DIy rflicieDt:a:.~ 01. .... i .. !I'N-~ .. ' Do,-:,m.wif iMnt is: UIJ" reward (wiDe.! '.. ,. ____ _ haft'" -u.. f __ IJ"riGd_ ha ___ ---"'t ..... ..,. all 'IVWUd!d ....... iI. _1Pft.l!-Not .. Oattua ~~ p.ido: .... .nL. It ______ ~wolI._pi,..... .... _I>Io!-I ... __ tlIe .... 1ipnB,. loa, 1';" _ _ :rlllat _ 8 to 10.-_L _the _ .. _~ dire

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o!tea. pd &0 CCQ'; 1 .bIe lois ~ to guap of laboo.r I'IIIIDiDg .... y without ftIMOIL, 'TItere isaometi_ a ~ lJutwe-have bad euesol ~ of meo.si.mply going away _....,._Oized ___ ....,. .... _goO .... y with mt.herbigad __ --. A-U. I WWI tryiDg to look ., il ..- &0.0 the point _ ......, _ the J-.-"tl!e:llnelftS. WoaJd there be .. great impiowemcat in the conditioDS if '&he l.a.bour were

clealt_:thclo~taIIy_""with_aid __ t-l _ til .... woaW. ~. A-K. Bat y-. __ ~ woaId he _PUDed by grM$ __ inconnnieoce to Go.eziDDUil 7-11; WOIdd eerlaiDJy entail. greM liability to Govem-meat.. Wbe&lt.er1ill.U Iiahili'lf woaJd .Ia tdv becIGme lID ~ ODO does ao$ kDo9. We should -..o\u""the ~ COIlWolihat ibe eontD,et:.or-hu 0T'er the 1aJ:tc:Ja:r8'. 'l'br __ ill able to fo!lo1F the runaway ~ hoclt to ma ~ _ goO him bock ogoiB. We shoaId reqGire wry big orgar;"" ..... to ....we as to ao ~

A-4.5. Y_saymyourlltaiemeat. thata!though it is not an ohligation of GOTeI'DDl.eat. otiII medical _ ill loop.!aUer by Go.emmeD' ageucioe f-Y ...

A..{6. YOlldoth.h .. ther ... _oIba.....uty _Go_tal __ t.baa ... pan 01 yow- ""P"""ibility for _labourer 1-That is 80-

.1-4.1. n 16econtradordos DOlaccepi it .. an ohligatioa to look after fum. in thai Y.Y you ooMider ii to be .. mere ch.aJ:i:ty to do 90. Are not the labourets in .. difficuli

~tioa! I was Hying to view it from tihM point of Yie1r. Is ft not desirable that .. sptem sbould be _ by .. bioI> ....,.,.oald be looked "l""''' _body's .......... t At; present is is oei~ the CODHaetor'"s DOr the ~8 zespollBibility I-WeD. it. i!I suppo;ed to be Ule conCndor"s. I quite a68e thaa; it; W'OIlId be to '&he intereslll of _I"-"r to be d.anitoeIy __ body auoL I.boald uy preferably _0-. ... -...... L It to .... all -....uy grM$liaIJility. I booogbt.. oaghl to be 1I'OdriIlg _ of Bitting idle. What is the dilference be_ the Sukkur Barnge ..-.. _ the eootie IabOnrero hue in Karachi! \Thy -do not ~ unemployed workeN go to the Sakkur ~ works 1-There is little 01' DO diiierenee. I do uc.t know what sort o! _boariB referred to. "-or instance."1nm! they

Af~~ becauM: we employ. lot of MAra .. 1 But the men. may not want to move.. boca .... tbey ban been ~ to doing pmely doek labour or h&Ddlmg ooaI. We have gotsimi.la.r...-ork to do in Snkkurand no greaterexeriioo is required there than they

hav~ too undergo hme (K.ancbi)~ In ~ theooo.oentn.tedez-ertionof loading and 1ID.-loWing a .hip is probably ~ 'lhan the a?eZagB spread over energy that we require from oar people. So that _ ill DO ....... at all_I ....... wby tIIey 1h0lild .... go up to Sakkur.

A-49. The ... ill DDeDlploymalll here in Ksncbi -]'OIl"" ~ labour a' Suklmr. "Haft you. made any Mtempt to aikact laboar from ..., to Sukkur 1-1 'ibink our COD-__ h ..,. awl they will probably make mil _er attempt&. __ this ___ ". be ... a b;g programme awl ,_ ill great ahmtap 01 labour.

A&). So far as you personally bow$ there is no reMOD. why hundreds of labourers ~rr in need of employmmat should DOt go to Sukkure.ad beeUlployed !~To I!le-IlO apparent ftUOD. at &1l.

A-51~ For instanee we .... Pathans idling here in Karachi. They pus Sukknr 011.. their way _ !-EsactJy.

A-S2. Wbydolbeyllota"'y at SakkDrt-Y"" probably mer to the BaT .... PalibaaB. There are different kinde of Patlmna; some only come see.sonally~ .. hUe othen ... ork .all the yearrouod .""'y from theirownCOlllltry. TheIle may be BtrnaIi Pathanaand they may think \bat the climate of Karachi i& Tery much mom comfortable than ttIai of SukIrur in the hot; weather.

A-53.. Do yoa _ploy.BaraoR Pat.bano t-Y_. batDot in Iarge ....... ben. ThNDgb-

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A-54 Generally apeak:ing you do not see lUll' teason why hundreds. if not thOUB&nda~ of men who are &t present unemployed at Karachi should not be employed at the Sukkur Barrage t-lt appe&18 to me there is no rea80n why they should not.

A-50. In your memorandum. dealing with the question of efficiency. you say ~ "Gene .. rally speaking the efficiency of: the la.bourer ia as it was 25 years ago bot as the rate of W&gea 'baa risen the value of work done for wages paid shows & distinct increase m coets It._That iB so.

A..08. You have been connected with la.bour for many ye&rs. Can you give ull-atatistioal information sbowing the wages paid for dilterent types of labour .. t difterent periods, to~day. 10, l~ or 2S ye&r& ago t-l can get that information and I .h&ll be very pleased to supply that to the Commission. At present I have not got it here.

Clu:drmfllll.: Conld we have it here when it is ready t-Y~ I shall get it and send it. A-57. Bi,. Al.e.mftdw M U'f'rGJI: You will please give a sort of gradua.ted table showing

the wages paid over a period of yeaJ'8 and brought up-to-da.te as far as posaible which will put the faot8 in nutshell t-Yea. I shall get that informatiOB.

A~57 ... Not gene1\\! information.-;-N()~ A-58. Similarly e&n you get e.nythin~ to show the dUfenmee in the cost of living to.

day from what i.t waa80me years back wIth regs.rd to the coolies and other types of l.bour that you employ.on construction works '-It would be difficult for me to get that inform-ation, hut fa.irly acourate d.a.ta ca.n be got from the Direct9r of the Labour Bureau in Bombay. I shall try and get that also and send it.

A69. Mr. A.\m.td : I understand Mr. Harrison. that you ordinarily pay your labour higherwagea-lhan are paid by the contractora t-Y~ that is correct.

A~60_ You sa.id in answ&r to the Chairman that swindling o11abourers by the contrac~ tors i& one of the chief reasons why the labourers who go home are not bT(nlght ba.ck by the contractor t-I did not oy so. ' .

A-Sl. At any raw the _me contractors do not bring back the labonl'e1'B who go home I-I think they very often do.

A-62. Yon said that the old workers do not generally return ~o the wo't'k oace they go home..-I do not think I &aid. that. ~ .

A-63. Do you get back the old -worket:a'f-Yes. I think & very large ntunbercom. back. AB I have mentioned in my written memorandum nothing spreads. quil"ker in India. than the news that a contractor is not treating his men properly. It is uot auy euy matter for the contractor to- NCruit labour if he hsa treated. his men unfairlY.

A-64~ Do theoontr&Otors repa.triate their coolies if they want to go home '-Yea. If a ooolie does not run away tbe contractor always pays biB return fare. Of COlIl'86 he cute it out of his pay, but he art'&np to k.ee~ money for his return ticket. He advances moner.to start with and buys the labourer 8 tickets. Of course he getB th&t money hac~ prob&bIy 'With interest. The contl'6Ctor will always asaist ~e laoourt"t to get baek to. hit. home. I have not known of laboureta being stranded when they have finish~ the WO

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A.69. Rave you got any offioe1'8 deputed for the purp08e of settling dispute. between oontra.cton and labomers !-AU our subdivisional oftioers and allthe subordinates on the works han distinct orders to 8ee 88 far as poaaible tha.t there is no mndling. We have no authority to look into the eontraotor'. accounts; that is his own private 00_

A.70. Can yon give. US &n idea of the- rates the contmotO:r8 pay their la-bouren &II com-pared with the ... teo they get from you. '-Yeo, I can gift you "" id.... I discovered .. few oases in whioh the oontr&Otor W&8 able to get labour fOr extraordinarily low :i-&tes. rates much lower than we had ever hea.rd of in Sind in recent yean. In one case we were paying .. contractor Re. 84-0 per 1000 c.ft. of earth work, while he was actually payiDg the eooliee only Ro. 4.120.

A7l. What is the difference !-Government eontra.eta with the .contractor and pay him Rs. 8-4-0 or Rs. 880 per 1000 cJt. and from our enquiries we fOUIld that in one specifio 0&88 the oontractorwas paying only Ra. 4-120 to the labourers. We are interested in these ~ bec&use in running this big e.eheme on commercial linea we are trying .to cut out the big contractor a.nd to get into direot touoh with the small contractor. I find there is a big difference between what we pay the big and.small oont-ractor~ So that-it ie to Otll' interest to eliminate &8 far M possible the big eontra.ct0J8. To that end we always make enquiries reg&rding the rates pa.id by the contmotor8~ Since we diBcovered. that case last year. I ha.ve asked my officers partiouJarly to enquil'e'into this matter. I find in some cases there is very little m&rgin of profit to the eoutractor.

A-72. Haveyou gotanytestcase80thatwemay be in a. position to eompare the wages paid by your contr&ctora with the wages the labourers are getting elaewhere and to bow the profits the contractors are ma-king 011. the transaction t-No.

A-7S. It is nearly 100 percent. according to you in this oan '-Myexperienoe in India.-is that. if I am to believe the oontmctbra. they never meJre Any profit at all. It would be very difficult to get that information.

A-74.. Inspite of that, the ma.jorportion of the workia donetht'ough the contractors !-Exactly.o.

A.74&. '!'hen the contractors are very philanthropio f-1 can get eert&in informa-tion from my officers if you w~nt it, as to lal'g:e diBcrepancies in rata.

A.7S. Do you write to any union or to people who supply labour in the vicinity of your wOl'k aaking them to supply you with labour't-No. There are no s:qch men ~ whom we can write. The jemadara a.re illiterate. There are DO bvea.ux or anything of that-kiIId.

A-'76. Could not lome of the labour unions npply you with labour !-N o. I have-never been approached by any labour union to give them work. I do not know any union sufficiently _ to 'I\'hioh I can .pply with OIly_lui_peets 01 gettmg coopera-tion. _

A.77. Are nOot the- rates given for la.bour 8upplied by the uniona lower th.n the rates given to the oonn.cto-ra I-Btlt will the labour uniona take responsibility: fN- the, advances whieh have to be given to the labourere to get them to come to our 'Worb t Th.t is our difficulty" ! .

A-'lL Have you aaked whether they would Undertake that responsibility t-No. I ha.ve had nothing to do with them. I ha.ve, up to certain limite. been able to oazy On with the mrual practiae of uaing the contractor. If you could t-ell me of something better, I mould be very pleaeed. .

A'7s.. You -nannot prove from yOUI' boob of account-that m&ny laboUl"8l'8 have-ohea-ted the Go ... ernment or the oontract01'8 ; y

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A.81w 1 think you ha.ve spent some 18 to 20 Cl'()res T-Up to the present day we have . spent mUDd about Rs. 10 crorea. '

A82.. And your 80heme is so large that you wiil spend .. moah larger amount I-Yea. 20 crorea in all .

A82&. Considering the amount you. have spent and the still larger amount you are going to spend on the works, can you suggest better methods 01 obtaining supplies at labour !-Nop olhand I Olin make no auggestion for &ny better method of deaJiDg with the labour force.

A-82b. After the ezperienee you have had and in view of the fact that you have stated the high rate paid to the contractor with which you ha.ve compared the lower rate paid tc the l&bourer, oan you, for the benefit of la-boup~ 81lgge*t any bet_ methodJ; of obta.ining your supply of labour ?-N.o. I oa.nnot see a.ny-not without giving advances, and I cannot lee that the St&te is jnstifi.ed in risking the t&xpayers' money to that ele oollllll8roial pointof view I-Yeo, from.th. commeroialpoi'li of ~ew. .

ASIt Can you .nggeat any mea1lll of gelling yow .upply 01 labour hy P&ymeut of .lightly higher wageB than the wages the workers am at. ~nt ~viD8 from. the contractor 1'-No~ ,

A-88a. You see there is a.pparently 1& coneidera.ble. margin between the rate paid by G4vernmentto the contractor a.nd that paid by ne-OODtraotor to tho'labourer; there appears to be profiteering on the part .of tho -\fOntraetor ; oould 'jOU. therefilre# pay the la.bourel' a slightly higher wage th&n he .ia receiving a.t present from the gontrac-tor and at the sa.m3 tim! pay the contr&t:ltor mther less: is there no scheme th&t- you can .~gest 2-No. I mUilt repeat tha.t that. C&lll\ot be dpne without increuing the liability of Govern- f

men~ -

A-89. Mr. Olif/ ,"' 1 presume that the writteJin~momndm whioh you havo submitted to thia Commialon ha.e e;~ci.al :reference to tAe LlOyd Barrage acheUltl t-Yes,

A.90. Ma.y I suggest th&t yoo have addreased 101ll'8elf to the problem :rather as aD. engineer than au admini&trator f-No, I &.111 afraid my fun

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"th.ose mtlh are men we have worked up from the ordinary unskilled la.bomv alau; "e have had to tTa.in all those men ourselves; I believe that compris88 the bulk. Then wa Bve our worbhop labour; we have two workshops there: the ordinary workshop and ..one for the repair of the dragline ucavator machinery. We have also a atone dressing shop. Those are all men employed by us. Whenwer we o&n give t1iem individual piecework we do S(); otherwise they are on daily wage labour. The other olasa ooDsiata -of ordina.ry unskilled labour usedfor miacelhmeotla duties. As I think I have made clear in my written memomndtlD4 wherever it is possible to give out work on mea.aurement

pieae~work we prefer to do that" rather tha,n muster labourers and simply aet what. "Work we can out of them. There is a. certain amount .of work that has to De done. fetohing and carrying~ miaoEill&neone work, where Government has to keep muter rolla, whore one e&nnot bring the work down to 80 form of measurement.

ASoI. May I take U the _ODd form of labour is labour employed by OOIltr&ctors f-Yea. that is so.. .

A-9S. Ma.y I take it that thoee who are direotly employed on the dr-&g:liDea, the 9hopl and the aOOnem&800's yard aTe SIlbjeot. to the Workmen's Oompenaa.tion Act t-On the -

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~-1!J'. Would it be ne~ryforh~ to leave .. email amount of money at home 1-1' think lt wonId be oonvement; otherw'UIe he losea & oert .. in amount by haYing to lend it by money order a.nd 10 OD; theM is .. riak of losing it.

A-113. If he is driven to the Barrage acheme by economic necessity, is it not likely that lome money would be required at home !-Y ea, .. small amount may be required. at home; but. on the whole, I think th,peopie mther gamble with these advances.

A-ll4.. So tha.t while a certain amount of the advance may be misused, there is an economic neees&ity underlying it f-Yee, I agree; but when it comes to 20 or 26 ~ oent. of a man's working capacity for .. &ea80n, it strikes me as being rather a big adva.ne8. .

A.lI5. Is it a fact that Government get this permanent regular labour force that they have by reuon of the contractora having pr&viouly given the labourers advance& to bring them to the loheme !-Yee. I am talking 8peci6.cally of Sind,. bee.me in general Government can get ita ordina!)' labour requinments on their Dluater& hom local labour.

A-II6. I am confining my questiolll' to Sind. Do you agree with the auumptiOD unde~ the question of Sir AJexa1lder Murray that there were hundnds aDd p088ibJy thousands lIllemployed in Karachi f..,.... Y ea, from what I hear trade is very alalek DOW in Karaohi; the Shipping ia not as great as it has been and the?e must be a. fair amount of dook labour idle.

. A~117 .. In your opinion would it be of any value to have a publio employment agency for Ka.raehi for the purpose of YOlIl' eeheme 1-1 have already mentioned that in my written memorandum.

All8.. Yes,Ieeethat f-Thereare~ersin that. I would Buuesttht'ft' aredangea in connection with these public empJ~ent agencies.

AllD. Of _ tho", are daagers' in many things f-Yoo. I tlrink it is a very .. .r danger in this _tty. '

A-l20. I understand contl'acWl'S do scoot for labour in Karachi ?-To .. very _man extent in Karaobi i they ~ll not come to Karachi. They will send their men straight oft to the Mekran to get their labourers from their home.; they will not uouble *0 get any appreciable amount of their labour &om Karaohi.

A121. With regard to .the r&pidity witb which information reapeetint!:' grWva.n ..... spreads.. might I a~t that information :respecting good ronditiODS would spread with even grea.ter rapidity f-Y 61, it would.

Al22. Have you heard much about the good conditiona. eu the Barrage seheme !-Y 8. I can put my fingers nry quickly on t.he contractOl'8who deal fairly and BquaJlely "ith their labour.

A.l23. Does it meaD that in the distriete. from which thoae contmcton .ob1ai labour there is no dlJIi lty ";th regard to the supply !-Th~ .. so.

A~l24. Sir Alexander MUJ'l"t\y asked for statistics witb regard to the com:~arative dtu. of wag .. poiA.]26. Therea.rereoorda !-Only from our enquiries. We have made auefulenquirles. There iii DO method bI which we c&n examine ,000tmetOl'll' books:

A-Ia7. There is no reeoni in uistence which 1IJould &how tbaU-No" but I C!M gil". you certain 0_. ".

A.l28. I take it that you pay at ... muoh per th_.nd oubio feet t-:YeB. ' A.129. Would it be poAible to ten 1m what it. the labour coet now per thouMnd cubi~

feet compared with the labour _t per thouoand ... bio loet twenty J08'" ago !--Yeo. I ooald got tbot.

A.130. In your memorandum under tbe head II Industrial efficiency of w-orkere" you ".1 CI. Twenty yea.re ago mechanical exoav.ton., for iMtaace. coakl nol compete wit-h labOUl". It baa now been proved. that forearthWGl'k in beevy bulk mechamc.l exeaT.tara

11

cai more than hold their 0WlI against manuall.bour". Will you exPlain that to me 1_ I ca.n give you .. VfrJ good example. Twenty yean ago I was constructing .. veJ'Y big dam near Jgatpuri. I worked out the question of 008t, using mechanical aid. I found that the only two things I ooold afford to buy mech-nic.uy were three portable enginu, pans for mixing mort6r, and Bome light railway trockB which were pushed by mBnnaI 18bou!'~ I could not even aft'ord to buy light tractors toO pull the truoka. Contractors came outfromEngla.nd toinspeot that work., and they.aid itseemeda very~n&lY thing that I could not do the work by mechanical means. I pointed out that mechaniea.! means oould DOt poaaibly oompete with the then wa~ -of labour. When this scheme was started we worked out the question. and, based on rates that were. then being paid in Sind. we found that mechanical escavatol'S won banda down. The com parison then-five yea.rs ~o-W8B very much more in favour of mecha.nieal exaavators than it is to~a.y, because by bringing in meohallica1 excavators we reduced the cost of hand laboar.

A,.131. Relating to workmen'. COD.iperusatioo, have you any meorda with l'egard to the contr&ctors paying oompellB&tiGll ?-My Superintending ~eers have. There are several C&S8Im whioh higoontraotul8have oome up and. asked' What shall I pay the man!n The amallereontractor says '''1 atD. sorry loannot do anythlng u. We have had two or three C8889 where they bave Ilotually paid compensation. Very few cases so fa.r ha.ve occnrred in the contract labour, beeMtae it is not the most difficult form of labour. The ~eroD. part of our work is done by departmental labour.

A-13!. But for another pnrpose you are proposing to increase the small contractors 88 against the .large contracton !-Yea. I am giving you that not for any outside reuona but purely from the economio point ol: view, which muat control my aotiOD8 &8 aafeguanling the publio pune.

Al33. Do you .. nUder that the WorJ. ..... n. Breacb f Contract Act ohould not ha .... been repealed 1-1 would rather ha.ve seen it modified than :repealed. because it leads to a battle of wita now, which iB not to the benefit of either party ..

PM OM_: I have not hoard 01 any suggestion 01 ..... """_ .. A.IM. Mr. f.JI.iJ/ : Can you tell me what is being done to train labour on yoor

acheme1-Ye8. On a 80heme of thi& sort we have never been able to get au1Iicient skilled labour to meet our requirements. Therefore we have had to train it in every shape and form from purely raw materiaL We have gradually trained the people up step by step. If it is within their m&arns to learn, we have tried to teach them wherever we ha.ve had to do depmmenta1 worb.. Thia work has been a great technical sehoo}~ and wa6 "' .... ked on by Sir John Simon.

A.ISO. Iaitprovingprofitabl. f-Itis profitable to lIS in th .. t way_ teach the people the methodl! we want them to follow, and it givea them & very much higher market value when they leave tho worke.

A-l36. Are you. in fa.VODr of its expansion ?-Yes. If we can take the opportunitj of training people on WOl'kt~it is better than trying to stan small schoola and U ha.lf-baked tJ institutiona.

(At fAil poi"', the witNH". oral~ tt1Uadjouf'fU!d. ,""illite Commiuicm'4I IIioit to S..tho".)

Mr. T. S. DOWNIE, O.B.E., Chairman, and Mr. JAMSHED H. R. MEHTA; Vice-Chairman, Karachi Port Trull'.

A-13.7. TM CAa.il"ftJQft: Mr. Downie, may I first upreasmy own sympathy with you and. you Trust at the preaent conditicn of your export trade, Bnd at the eerioU8 diminuti(.n wbiohyou b&vel'ecently esperienced; andals.oexpre8sthe hope that it is only a temporary

~reuion and th&t it may recover to something like its JJlll.ximnm period. It oerta.inly 18aeeriOUll thing youhavetoface-afall hom 2,070,000 tons 00 600.000h:m.8inaperiod

~ four yean. You have put before UII a very interesting statement covering the condi-tions -of employment within your- aphere, and alEo the housing. aa fM &B it goes, of your employees.. We had the pIeaaure of inspecting some of the workers' houses yeaterday_ In your memorandum you tell ... that the question of induoing emp\oyera of labour t &C(luire sitae on which to build quirten for' their 'Workmen has been ta.keD up, and that negotiations a.re on hand toW&l'da that end. Would you my what you mean by U negoti&tiona". and with whom t-We have approaohedemployenof I&bour, sucb aa stevadmea and memben of in:nB who houae their labour in the village at Keamari. IUld have iformod them that ,.. oonaicler that.t thia time they ohould build ho .... 1or their 0'IfD labour, and that the Port Trust have 10 far decided not to build any more hot,188&..

12 We b&ve offered them sites beyond the village on -reclaimed land. which they may 80qtilie

4O(}D specified terms. This has taken some OOIlBide~hle time because of the present depreuion of trade, and the reply (If the stevedores. and employera Wal that they were financially not in a position to erect honsea. and that the matter might stay for .. time until the trade of the Port improved, so that people would then be financially in .. position to acquire those sites and to build noh housel. That is what is meant by

~. negotiations ". A-13s.. You aay that U The Port Trust have under conaidera.tion the reoonatruction

of .. la.rge number of the houaea which were built many yea.rs ago and propoae in due course totakethia Wouin hand It. Is thatneceuarily to wait for an improvement in trade 1-Yes, sir. The question was gone into and it was felt that a better olasa of h01l8e8. or a dU!erentolaas,should be built to meet modern requirements. The prcposal W&8 to totally rebuild" and the queation was gone into and reported on by the Engineer that housea could he reconstructed at a very much less coat and it was decided. in the fira-t inatance~ to put up one or two model hOnse8. which have been put u~ and to subsequently 8tart .. building programme of reconstruction arlending' over a number of yea.ra.. For financial reaooDll also that baa not been puohed forward.

A-189. Referring to Workmen'8 Compensation you tell us that your Trust does not confine itlJelf to its legal obligations Under the Aot but that you do grant compensation on the lines of the Act to al1youremployeea who may heinjnred or killed in the execution of their duty ?-That is oorrect. The number of employees under the Workmen~B Compensation Act is very limited. But all employees who are injured or killed get the same compensation 88 if they were under the Work.m&ns Compensation Act.

Al40. I take it you. would not object to other employers doing what you de to your own men. thatia to sa.y, extendiDg the provisions of the Act to cover every clasa or employeea I-No. .

A-l41. With regard to periods of payment of wages, have yon eomidered the possi-bility of paying Doll your men at shorter intervala than appe&rs t.o be the oQltom, namely, the monthly Bystem ?-We had a -representation from Government, lIir, two er three ye&l'8 ago and we went into the :matter and improved it by aceeleratiog paymenta. In cues where men were being paid once in ten days we probably reduced it to seven dayt:. People who weN paid monthly preferred to be paid so; they did not want to be- paid weekly~ We 'had no complaint about the period of paymen~ . The only f:ompJa;nt. we had was tha.t the payment should be made quicker, that is soon alter the end of eACh month'or week as the case might be. ,-

A.-loti. Do you not think thA-t they woald prefer a- shorter period of payme-nt-inatead of monthly pa.yment 1-1 do not know~ As far as I can me.ke ont they do aU thRir pay. menta in monthly instalments and they seem to prefer it. We had no cQtnP}&,hi1.s that they would like it paid [onnightly or weekly. Probably Mr. Mehta may be in ., position to lI&y~ (Mr. Jamshed N. R. Mehta): My pe:rtlonal opinion is that they 'Would prefer weekly payment.

A-l43. Mr. DOW'nie~ oan you tell UB whether it would be ~ult for you to make weekly pa.ymenta ?-(Mr. Downie): None whatever. .

AI44- Itoould be done ,-Yeo. A[45. And presumably to that extent it would relieve the reoourse of the w01'kmen

to outaide ~en()ie& to obtain money for expencrfture during the pwiod 1-1 doubt that.. My opinion 18 tbat they would proba.bly spend the money a.nd not disoharge their obli-gations. At the end of 6&eh month" as fM' 68 I am able to asoertain, the man is surrounded by hia'oreditoft who know that he haa got money and 80 they get it from him. If he is paid fo-rtnightly or weekly I am afraid he might use it for other pUl'pOle8 and not pay hit debts. That is my own,impresaion. ":",

A-U6. I think it would \e our duty to conaide-I' that question '-Mr# Mehta is in a batter pOlition to speak on this subjeot and I quite agree with what be says. (Mr .. ,Jam-tied N. R. Hohta): There is a remedy. It the- Port Trust st.&dlll a co.operative -credit society for them the remedy wonld be very sUilple. I quite see 'Mr. Downie's point, but it is not im~ossible to cheok it~ Theee people could be got out of their debt by starting " oo .. operatu1e credit lIooiety of the Port Trust for the workers. The experiment can be tried and enoouraged by a body like the Port Trust.

A.I4-7. You think th .. t the two things ought to go togethOl'-6 shOrter period of payment oombined with the eat&bliahment of ,. utiafaotory eo.operative credit _yo_t-Yeo. . .

A~l48. Would that no-t need in ita inoeptiou lome personnel officer who would take .a special intereat to aee that itdidauooeed 7-1 am in fa..,our of baring a peraonnel offieer; I think that is neoesaary. If he euoouragea it it. it bound to be a 8UOOOI8.

13

A.149. You suggest that tho l'o.-;,Truat is .. partioularly "'vourabl. body for trying. such an u:periment '-Very fa.vcurable.

Al50. MiN Power : I see that you mention that in the case: of 1ine! and un'Olaimed 'Wages these are credited to the Port Trust. Do you think it will be pOSBible to ma.ke' 'UG of euoh aums iDaome form. of weUarework t-(1t\r. Do:wnie): They are very trilling ... I think the- fines oome to about Rs. 100 year. They are not very substantial.

A-Un. What about the unclaimed w&geI t Are they not. substantial sum f-Only oooaaionaUy they are unclaimed. They Me not large. Tbe amounts are trifl:ing. In fac. they are.o iri6i.ng that we had no necessity to oonsider what toO do with these amounts. Tht:' fines are very sma.U and the wages are not claimed only oocwonally; it may be .. Bum of Rs .200. or SOOt

A-152. Do the unclaimed wages arise from a man having to return to .hiB village-hurriedly and hoing """bleto olaim biB pay prior to tha pay day t-Thoy disappear. they go on leave and never e~e back.

A.Iss. Without having put in any claim 1'-No. We treat it as- unolaimed: money.

A.IM.. What is the interva.l for the workers on the night shifts:in the shipping?-According to hours. There ia no interva1. They work from '1 ~30 p.m. to 6-30 a.m. In actual practice the men take t.urn.s. going off for a few spells. They cannot 'Wot'k. right through without a 'Meat s.nd. they arrange that amongst themselves.

A~l50. What is the iJl,terval they actually take under that arrangement f-Itismerely & matter of &rrangement with the headman; there ia no specifio time laid down. ,

A.I56. In your memorandum you refer to the question of the reduction of hours of the workers having been postponed pending certain improvements. I am afr&id I do-not quite follow what the improvements are which would aftect this question from the workers' point of view T-It ia rather a difficult matter. When the question waa brought np a large portion of the traders of ths pl&ee were- against reduction in h01l1'L They thought that the time was ioopperi'IIDe for doing so and felt. as far .. r can remember .. that when we got the new conditions of working which we are likely to establish in the West Wh&rf~ that is the new part of the harbour. they would be in a better poaition to. see what the result of r-educing the hoUJ'B would be tb&n what they were at that parti~ oular time.

A.IS7. h there likely to be a eoDBidera.ble interval before there are any improve-ments '-We hope to open the first of the West Wba-rf piers by this time next year. and to work undel' ditierent conditiO-DB from those in the past. It is rather a technical thing, but I can explain to you if you 90' desire. _

A-ISS. Yon think it will reaultin the possibility of being a.ble toaIterthe shift times !-I ca.nnot 8ay. The Port Trwst ha.d put it forward to the Va.rio-UB oha.tnbe1'8, stevedores. and othert concerned and asked them for their opinion on the ma.tter of reduction of houn. The Indian Chambers favoured reduction, but the Karaohi Chamber of Com-:-merce and the stevedores who Me moatly the employers of the labour OO1loe:rned were-very much againat it and were unable to see any necessity fol' reduction and the Board aooepted ~&t view and postponed ~urther consideration of the matter.

Al59. I understand that you are very alack jut now r-Very slack indeed. AlOO. Then this should be :mther an opportune time to try the experiment in the-

reduotion of hOllI'S, might it not '-No, th:iJ ia just the time when they want to work more: people would like to 'Work fol' 24 hours if they (lould get it. There will be nO< trouble about the working hours now. When we are busy and when trade is oa.uied on at a preaaure. ill the time to reduce the working hours.

A-16I. My point is tha.t if you ate sIaek now you will be employing more people in the bulk on shorter shifts T-That dependB upon the number of dayS the ship 8taye~ Forwtanoe, in buy timea we keep it only for three days. If there is nopartioularhurry

~ the ship stays for eight days~ the number oI men employed is natoially leu. Thai ia the trouble. It is work that. we want here..

A.i62. Referringto your h-owring8oheme, you state tha.t there haahad to be anmcre&&& In the rents l&tely .. ltakeitthllta.t the la.me time there has also been a deorease in wages f-It is not a deotea.se in wages, but .. deoaase in work. We were having a )OBS of about Ra. 30,000 per annum for several years. and a year or two ago it W68 decided tha.t we must do something to get some more money, and the:rente were put up about 10 per oent., that is, just. about the standard rate under the Rent Act. .

AI63. Baa there been an appreciable uodua of people from yoW' own housingaahemee. .mce the inorease of rente t-N o. The only thing I know ia that a lot of people said that.

'f'a.ther tha.n p.y this rent they would go ba.ck to their mud huts; a.nd a certain number

15

A-l83. You tell us about the housing oonditions and the- hesitation.of the oooupiers to pay tho lent.. Could you tell us the appro:rimate ooat of COD8truoting a. house, say 10' by 10'. in Karaohi 7--;We hAve got small houses which inolude two rooms &nd .. venmdah.

A.IM.. What is the &rea 1-1 can give you the area of the houses. The sma.ll hOU8e8 ~nsist of .. verandah l4' X 6'~ ODe MOm 14' x lO'~ another 5' X 6' and another

l~# x 10"4 The value of that was originally Rs. 450 .. house.. That W68 many years ago.

A-l85. Do you think the cost has increUed considerably!-We have spent a very large amount on repairs.

A-l86. Wh&t I am trying to get at is whether the cost of coustrnotion here i8 in a.ny va.y higher than in Bombay or Calcutta !-The cost of building in Karacm u very much cheaper than in Bombay or- Calcut.t&.

A-187. Then what is the reason of the heaitation of your occupiers to pay a rent of Rs. 3 or RB. 4; it is not a.veryltigh rent for rooms of thataize '-1 cannot ten what the reason ill. I suppose they have not tlle money.

A-ISS. Money is spent on health and eciuce.tion. Do you oonfine your aotivities to thalabour alone. or do you spend money for your higher staff, on the education and health .of your olerioal &taft t-We ma.intain two medioal officers. who are confined to peGPle who are generally getting lees than Re. 300. On the Manora side we have a medica-l .officer .... ho attenda to every one.. On the Manore side we also provide a aohool for Port 'Tl't18t children. On the Ka.raahi aide there is a large number of m1DlicipsJ 8()hools~ both in Keamari apd Karachi.. To the Port Trust employees who send their ohildren to Xa.re.chi we pay the tram hire.

A-ISS. "''hat I wanted to knowwaa whether you maintain these schools for the benefit of the labouring claases 01' for the clerical &taft '-We maintain only one school, that is a.t Manor&, and that:is for aU the Port Trust employees who would like to send their -ohildren to it.. ..

A-loo. HOW' many boys attend that Behool !-About 35. A.191. Do you think that is a quite satisfactory condition pf &ff&irs t-WeD, that

is all that there are about the place. The main body of Port. Trnet employees live in .K.a.t'&Chi, and there they obte.in the benefits of the municipal BChools, a large number of which are to be found.in Keams.ri and Karachi

A-192. Mr. 1Iehtajust now suggested the advisability of starting a oo-operative system '-1 have not oonsidered the question. I should like to oonsider the matter.

A-IDa. Do you come acJ'OU 0&888 of swindling by your OOl1tractors t-No. I am not awa.re of any such cues. I ha.ve not come across any oase of swindling ..

A~l9&. Do you think the contractors deal fairly with the labourers t-I am not in .. poSition to say.

A.l95. Ca.n you give us the margin ofpront which the contractor makes;_ the r&~s you pay to the eontractor~ and the rate. that the contractors p.y to' the work-people I-I cannot tell you.

A.l96. Diwan- CMmGn Loll: Would you make the enquiry and let US know !-I have not the means of Dnding it out.

AIM. Mr. Birl .. , I UDderstand that you h&ve been subeoriblng to th& Red Crou Aaeociation. Do you think they maintain a.ny flail for the bene6t of the Indian 'Women t-1 underata.nd they maintain qualified nurses at Keama.ri. 'who instruct the 'Women.. We subscribe and they do the work..

A-lDS. You:will perhllp8 agreewith me that the qualifted nurses. unleaa they ere Indians. are not very easily a.eoeseible to the working classes, and therefore I wanted to know whether you have. made any oondition that the Red Cros& Society. on account of the subsoription whioh they receive- from you. should maintain more Indian ooi4. for the benefit of the Indian workiug olMleS t-We ha.ve made no oonditiOD at aU. Wemerely -subscribe. and leave the Red Crou to do their own work. .

A-l99. Do they maintain, or not. an Indim dGi I-I oould not teD you. A.200. Mr. CIo .. , What iB the prooed_ :'With .....ro to the reporting of

.accident. t-All Beriou. aeoidenta are l'8port&d to the Collector of Karachi and to the polioe immedia.tely and. of oomee, to myself. It is left for the CGlleotor of Karachi or the po1ioe to take any action that is neeeuary iD the ma.tter.

ABOI. Who oonduotl the innatigation of the aooidente '-That is left for the police 'Working under the Diatriet Magiatrate, the Collector of KaraahL .

16 A-202. Are there any technical men oone8ponding to the Ispeetor of fsetories

with technical experienoe of maohinery and accidents to conduct in.~a.tione into-aooidents !-I do Dot lmo1r. W. haDd the matter entirely over tp tho police.

A-200. I should like to ask you one qUMtion arising out of:Mr. Ha.r:riaon evidence to. which you have listened. We got the imp-reeaion yeeterday that there Wail not perhaps 68 muoh of unemployment as of under-employment in Karachi. Large number of men clamoured that they could not get sufficient work in Kar.ahi. Is that the case !_ UDdoobtedly

A204. Mr. HarrisOD teDs ... that h. caDDO' get a full supply of labour &ll through the year and that he finds it very difficult to progrea with hi! work ~ally at special 86Ilo8onB. Will these men here be willing to go to S1lkkur for employment if they get a. chance t-1 should be very doubtful.bout the cl&a8 of men you 86.W yesterday. Most of them are trained dock workers with the exception of probably wo or three experienced haads who might get hotter w_ at the Suklrur I1 ..... age. They _Ily stick to. Karachi or go to their own homea~ _-

A-205~ The unskilled workers we W~ Mr. Harrison sa.y8~ are perfectly capable of being employed at Sukkur 'P-You cannot call them unskilled because the dock labourer is a. skilled man in his 0WIl particwarway. We wa.nt very good men for-that clasa of work. An ordinary man is no use. These men work hel'&foryeaI'8 and then probably go home-for a year or two and come back. Employment as dock labourer is limited to men with a certain amount of skill. There are of course others wbo do a certain amount of skilled work here. Dealing with sugar. for instance, we use the Me.r&ni labour which is bigger inatruetureandcan do the work. With regard to imports. men from the Punjab are U1!led because tbey are bigger. For the ordinary work of pack carrying. eooliea are employed..

A~200. There is no coneidera.ble amount of unskilled labour unemployed in Karachi t By the word., C unskilled I refer to the labourer with no particular degree of aptitude in anything 1-There m1l8t be a good deal of un&mployment owing to the trade depressiOD. For inatlmce* WI are not doing any work on the weat wharf .. We might have a thou.stmd men doing odd jobs there. They are Dot being employed now.

A-207. The point I"I"eally want to get at is this. Ia it a caae of the un~ of the labourer to go to Sukkur; oJ'is it a case of the ignorance of the 'Worker as to- the pIKe' where work can be got 1-1 am not in a position to answer that. CUr. Mehta.) : I can .ay ..

,Bir. that it iJ due to the ignorance of the labourem. If they weN t-old th .. t there is work obtainable at SIlkku: aod that they would get so much wages they would willingly ge.

A-208. Sir IbralJim Ralimloola.: In your memomndum dealing wit.h so hOUsing condi-tiona" you my that the Port. Trust have oonstructed 800 hO'USe8 for ihe MOOlllDlodatioa of the labourers at Keamari. Thia accommodation u. not for the entire labour force of the Port Trust. It is only for a Umitednmnber1-Yee.. Whatha.ppene about the othera is this. Many of our men like others pmer to live- in Karachi and they go and live in Karachi. Consequently these houses beeatne empty and in Cftl'8e of time they have been filled up by outsiders as well sa Port Trust employeea. Out of about 800 hoo'.' oDly about 269 are really occupied by Port Tr1I8t employees.

A20D. And the balance is occupied by nonPort Trust employees t-Not conneetec! with work of the Port Trust. For inatance. stevedorea' labour prob&bly live in it. The-oil company's1abour lin in it.

A4210. In some way connected with the port !--Connected with the work of the port" but not .m...tiy c_ted with the Port Trust.

A-211. In the matter of charging Tents do you. make any distiinction between teo.anta who aN in Port Trust tervioe and those ~o are not f-We make no distinction.. ,,"'e have a number of hon"'. in the village. We give freequarterafor OU!'sta, bllt the others. are on the same baaia whether they are Port Trut employees or outBidem. .

A.212. With regard to the question of reDt. yoo ... y Ibat,the policy of ths Port Tr1I8t is to levy minimum ratea fOt' theBe hOUdea. What do you maim by minimum ratel !-. Suoh rata that we can oharge without l(Mjng money. M I havo aheady laid we 108& nearly ~. 30,000. a year on the average$ 80 \hat all the rents are not really remunerative-yet.

A-liS. How do you make out that 1088 f Do you charge any intereat on the eoat of construotion. and if so. at what rate !-Y ea~ we obarge an intere8t a.t 6 per oent. on the coat of construction and include depreciation also. We do not include the land value .. Weinolude the coat 01 the supply of water, the amount of taxes that we haTe to pay ~ the Municipality aod all thia works out to aboot Ro. 20,000 1 ... eve

17 A-214. What is lib. total amount you hovo l,P"nt 1-1 hove' _ gO~ lib. figures ....;, >at

preeent. . A~215. If this loss ia e1imin&ted from the caJ.cola.tio~ by how much would the rate of

interest on the cost of construotion be reduoed !-We have not worked that out.. A.216. I want to find out whether~ inatead of working out at 6: per oent., you work~

out at " per cent.. or 5 per cent.~ there would be no loss on the capital invested in oollStrnotion '-1 h.a.ve got here the capital60St on the average including depreciation &00 interest and if we omitted it from our caloulations we would be losing about &8.10,000. . \

A-217. Wha.t is \he e.mount of intel'ea-t dehl~ now !-Re .. DJOOO to 30,000 . A-218. Is that your total I ... !-No, it is Ro. 20,000 to 30,000. A.219. If your loss is &. 2()~OOO before and it you elimi.ua.te it now. you 'Would still

get Rs. 10,000; but if your loss was Rs. 30~OOO you would get no return on the capital invested. You are charging rents from Ra. 6 to Re. 9-80. On what basis a.re thes& rents fi:!:ed f-A st&tement is worked out on the basis of the original cost, the present renteJ. val~ the "lue of the land and so on. It has all been worked out before.

A-220. How do these rents compare with those of similar accommodation in other parts of Karachi 'I-They are a gift; they a.re no rentB at all. For similar houses. eitua.ted in K.a.nt.chi we can get three times the rent;,

A-221. Is: that the re&8On why bhere issO' much over-crowding f-l do not know whether th&t is the reason. People will take in other people and we C&m1ot keep them out. The accommodation provided in each house consists of three rooms and you would not get one room in Karachi fol' the same rent. We think it is & mistake to have the rents so low.

A222. 11 that not .. liability OD Iihe funds of Iihe Port Trust t-Y.., on tha fonda of the Port Trust.

A.223. Is tho Port Trust satisfied thet it is .. legitimate liability on libeir part to let those houses at low rents to people who a.re not in the employ of the Port- Trust t-We-oaimot get them ~

A-224. Ha.ve the Port Trost considered that aspect of the question ?-The matter Ima been disousaed on vari~ns oooaaiona and u I said before, they came to the conclusion that they would build no moI'e houses but get the employers of la.botir to build their own houses a.nd give them Bites for the purpose.. Beca.nse th&y saw that it was uneconomic.

A-225. How do you explain the fact that men in P()J't Trust servioe entitled to accom-modation which they oonld ~ at one-third of the rente obtaining in Karachi do not. occupy it but allow othera to do so t-1 am talking of the situation about .. number of yeara ago. At present the whole of the aooommoda.tion is not occupied by Port Trust labourers. Only a.bout 200 hOU8e8 are occupied by them. Whenever a houae becomes. vacant. whioh is very seldom the eaae, we allot it to a Port Trust emp1oyee~ This is the rule that we. have been following 101' 80me years past. It is going to take_ many years bofore the- whole a.ooommodation is oooupied by the Fort Trust employees.

A:226. These houses have been built for the benefit of the 'Port Trust employeeS at Port Trust _%pOns .. 1-1 C&!Ulot .. y they were built .peo;..uy for Port Trust employ ....

A-227. Then ";hat justification ia there for your charging -only one~third rent com-pared with wh&t similar accommodation fetches in Karachi t-The difficulty :is this. The rente were fixed some twenty 01' th-ir9' yean ago and we have not inoreaaed them. in the way the other landlords in the city have done.. That is one reason why the- rents are 80 low.. .

A-228. Di1DGn Chaman Loll: Mr. Downie, was .. representation ~e by the tally clerks to introduce a shift system for their staff t-YM-.

A229. W .. tha matter coneidsrod by your Board t-Yea. - A230. Did the Board unanimously 'l'Eloommend a. reduction in hours originally 1-No, the Board referred the- ma.tter to- the various Chambers of Commerce and . mployem qf labour for .opinion. '

A-23l. Did they at ~y time unanimously reco:inmend reduction in hours as a. body '-1 am speaking from memory and to tbe beat of my recollection no deciai(ln was. come to. The mat~r WaB referred. M I 8&id, to the varioua Chamben of Commerce and. employera of labour in Karachi for opinion.

IlO y 16-2

A-232. Is it a fact tb&t the European Chamber of Commerce at tirat viewed the propoaal favourably 1-1 do not think it is correct to ea.;y that.

A-233. Can you, Mr. Mehta.. throw any light OD the matte t-l was not in tbe Port Trust at th&t time. I came iD afterwards;.

PM OAaSrmt.ui: I think, Mr. Mehta. has madeaome reference to itin his evidence and we sh&ll examine him in the afternoon.

A234. Diwan Chaman Loll :-I take it that you are not in a poiIition to give me detailed information a.bout it.-!-I think what I ga.ve is: the correct information.

A-2M. My information is that the Board viewed the proposal favourably.-I am only talking on the resolutioDs passed by the Board. I do not know what happened at informa.l meetings of the Boord. The resolution only. ea.ye tha.t the matter was referred to the va.rW\L6 Chambers for opinion.

A-S36. Am I right in taking it that the oppOIJition to thie came from Messl'& For~ Forbes, Campbell and Co.?-Tbe, opposition to it(l~ from the Chamber 01 Commerce-.and from. the stevedores of the port; -

A-237_ The Indian Chambers 1fuanimously agreed !-Yos, they ag .... d. A-238. Is it a fa.ct that the working hoUl'S in Bombay in the Port Trust are ahorter

than .the working hours in Karooru. l-It is e. fact. _ A-239. How does the efficiency of the Bombay worker compal'C with the Karachi wo~ker in regMd to work f-Very small &l1d very poor comparatively.

A-240. Have you got a.ny ata.tiatica which can show that 1-No detailed stamties; -only my knowledge of the work done in both pl&cee:.

A-24L Is that your opinion !-My opinion based on the knowledge of the working in both porta. We work far better in this. port.

A~242. But you have no statistics !-No A-243. What is the constitution- of the Boards ?-Four membeTff ~ appointed by the Ka.rachi ChambersofCommerce.two by the Buye1'8 and Shippers' A880ciatioI4 foUl' by . Government.inciudingonerepreaentative of theN. W. Rly. and one of the military Department. one by the .Kara.ehi municipa.lity and two by the Karachi Indie,n Jl.lereh8ntB Association. .

A.244.. Is there any representative of labour !-There :is a nominated member .1\.245. Has there been a great deal of agitation on the -part of the worke.J'8 or their

representatives demanding representa.tion of labour OIl a bett-er seale !-1 have b.e&rd that such is the case. ~

A.246. You yourself pel'Bonaily would not be aversll', to seeing ~, properly represented on the Board !-My personal opinion is. that one la-bour r6preaentative 'is .quite suffioient for the size of this place. '~ . A.247. Do you agree with the methOd of putting the labour representative on the Board by nomination l-As far as I know it b&S worked sa.tisfa.-c.rorily;: in othe:r words. I lItgree with it.

A.24S. Who is tb& representative of labour '--.Be is a gentleman called Mr. Merayah Khan. .... *

A.M9. Is he ()onneated in .any way with labour f-Not that I know of. A-200. Yon a.re aware tha.t the Port Trust La-bour Union and other labour arga--

ntza.tiona in KArachi have looked upon this nominati~ unfavounbly 1-1 have unde~ -stood that. f -

A-25l. You .aid tha.t the rents Of these q"'vters at Keaman which are owned by tbe POrfTmst were inereasqd; oan yon give me til\. .venge of the m()re&Se d.uring the lut few ye&r8 ?-Yes, B.a. 4. nouses were increased to Rs. o.

A~252. Iwillputittoyou a.nd perhaps you might corW). me as r go a.long. The origiiial rent of tho small houses. W&8 Ra. !-120 sewral ye~ ago ?-About 40 or 00 yeare ago. I

A.253. Did you have any houses 50 ye&1'S ago l-Yes, a lot of houses.. A-2M.. When was the rent Ra. la12.0 1-1 have not got that on my liBt; that ia a.

very remote time.. . A-2~' Which is the lowest you have got '-The lowest rent that I have got here is

RI. ~2-O for the amallest house. _ A-206_ What d.te 'Was th&t I-That goes back good many yearo 10 or 15 yo ... _

I have Dot got an~g before that.

A-25'T. h that .. oman h ..... !-Th. very om.n..t h __ Re. 4-2-0. A~258~ And what is it paying now t~Ra. 0.. That was in existence I should. say

6hout 1900. Re. 4-2.0. . A~259. When was the last increase in the rent l-About a y~r ago. A-200. Was there any inorease in.wages at tha.t tim&'t-No. A,261. _ We will tab the mat hOU8e& of Keamari; do you think they are fit for human

beings to live in7-We~ I quite.agree they are very unsightly. but their history is rather peculiar. I preaumeyoure1'ertoth08&a.t.the end of the village; I tlrink you saw them;: I was not there. We put tip about 10 liDes of huts daring the time we had plague here. so that when pla.gue occurred at any house the families could be tn:med out &nd could live in the mAt h01lfJe8 pending disi,nfeotion of their hOllSes. The plague died &wa.y but the mat housea rem&inecL The question a.rose: shall we pull them down f As many men came along to me and said: .. Sahib, we a.re very willing to take this hOllSe ~~. I said : U Very well, you can aU ha:ve them at &s. 1-8..0 & month. n They were filled up. and tbat is the reason of those h6nses. Since they have been buil~ about 6 lines have been burned down &nd we ha.ve not erected a.ny more., It is quite likely those existing will be bnrneddown in the eourse of the next few months and there will be no more

erected. A.262. Am I right in S&ying tha.t the apaoein these mat huts is about 10 feet by .10

ieet t-l should say B). A-263. Am I correct in saying that tbe average prisoner in one of His Majesty'. prisons

gets a cell 10 feet by IOfeet.aU to himself t-I am notiu & poeitionto say. A-264. Is there any wage-fixing $&Chinery availahle for the purposes of the Port Trust

vorkers '1-No~ . . A-265. Would you personally he averse to the 1ixa.tion of wages through some minimum

'Wage-fixing .machinery _ !-1 do not quite gather what you mean by thap.. . A.266. There is a proposal before the Gov.emment of India, as a reau1t of the

Intern&tiona.) Labour Conference last yea.r to set up minimum wage-fixing machinery ; you would not be averse to tha.t t-No; we generally fall in with the views of G-overn &ent on these matten.

A-267. In regard to' these portera you \IlY - in your written memorandum that .n Suitable quarteR are provided by the Ka.rachi Port Trust t} 1-That is 80.

A-268.. Is it & fact that SODlS of your aooommoda.tion at'Keama.ri haa been condemned by the Health Officer 1-1 am not aware of it.

A-269. Tha.t is &- fact. You do not consider tbose satisfactory 1-1 'am- not awa.re

20-

A-2S0. Would it _ be desirable to have ....... no in charge ?-1 Dan_ go in and Inspeet outeide ho ..... belonging to the municipality; my i.,;..uctJon only applice to tb Port Trost. not tbe municipal arrang .... nte. .

A-281. But if it is a fact that many of yOU!' workers are living in mat huta of more or-Jeu the tame. types as the mat huts to be found at Keamari. you would not consider that aooommodation S$tisfactory !-No: certainly not.

A282. Could you give me any idea as to the indebtedneaa of the workers of the Port Trust t-l oould not.

A-2S3. Have you got seame-afa ree:t houa& 1-There is a ~n~8 rest bOU&e; it is not the property cf the Part Trna.t..

A-2M. Under the Port Trust Act are you not suppeaed to provide .. seamen's rest house '-We are supposed to oontribute; we contributed. towards the cost of it and oontributions were received locally. No one knowa who tbe buiJding belongs to. The only thing is we keep it in repair out of Port ~ funds and maintain. iL"

A-285. Are any Inmana eligible ?-A11 grades and ....... are eligible. A285. Do Inman. make "'"' of that "",t ha ... I-V...,. eelOOm. A-28'1. Can you give me any reason,.by they do _ t-l beli.ve they prefer to live

in other placos. A.2S8. Would it not be better to provide a rest house for Indiana !-That is & very

excellent idea. . A289. Is there any provision in the Port Trust A.ct for the.safety of the crewa.employt'1i

for loading and onioa

21

A-300. If it is brought to your notice I dAre 8&y it would be remedied t-AnythiDg lib 'that would be remedied at once if it w~ found ne~sary.

A..sM. You are in favour of depa.rtment.l employment I suppose t-To &. certaiD ~xtent. .

~ A-SOit And you would not be averse, I suppose, to ha.-ving eo la-hour bureau or labour ~ehange set up for the purpose of recruiting your workers !-I.ha-ve-no objeotion a.t all if it would work welL . -

A-306."Would you ha.ve any objection to a. system of sioknesB insurance beiDg adopted for- the permanent WOl'ke1'8 t-TaJrlng the Port Trust. I do not think it is necessary. We have very llbera11ea.ve rules. . . 'A-S07. Spealr:ing gener&lly.you are not a.veraetO the principle of eiolrnesamsU!1lJlC8 f_ No, ~ far 8B the casual workers are concerne~ but not for the Port ~t employees.

A-300. _ they have been pro'rided aheady!-They are very well tr&&ted l "they ha.ve medi(!aI attention free.

A309~ But where weh facilities are not provided you. would not be ayerse to sieknNl insurance l-No.

A-SIO. Are you in favour of extending the scope of the Workmen'. Compensation Act in .Qrderto cover aU cla.ssea m worke1'8 '-We have extended it 8.8 far as we are concerned. I have no objection to ita general extension. .

.A..3J 1. Mr. Cliff: Would you oblige the Commission by givmg us some pbotograpna -of the. linea that. we sa.w yesterday! You have got four categories of hcUS~B in which. employees live t-You would lik~ photographs of the Ma.nora. houses &nd the native village hOWle8 'I I will give instructions for photographs to be f aken a.t onc~. It will take a. few days. I can send them on to you. .

A.312. Will you be gOM. enough to furnish the Commission with &. copy of the Constitution of the Pmt Trust and copies of the AnnUM Report for the Jast four years' I want you to be olear that you ahouldinolude the one for 192425 t-Yes.

A-313_ Would you tell U8 the number of employees that ..... employed direotly by the Port Trust 'I-There is one question I should like. to ask; a.nd tha.t is a.bout the definition of the word 'labour'. What isla.bour 'I -Is a tally clerk who works for 12 hours. a. day like the artisan to be included or not 'f .

PM 0"","""" : I think elerioallabour is UBU&!ly kept in the books separ.rely from -other kinds. of la.bour; it is not manual labour 1-1 want tQ be sure of the definition becauSe it might aifeet my &n8werB.

ASI3&. Mr. Cliff: You have got .. I understand, establishments A and B and oert&iD ether l&bourt-Yes.

A.SUb. I want to know the number of work~people employed direct by tho Port Trust t-Ya-y I put in the clericaJ ataft or omit it ,

A-313e_ Include it if you pleaae 1-1,163 purmanent. A814.. How is that divided t-403 clerical; peoIlB. eAotc~8 and sweepms 308, ~eere and drivers 381; wolles 10; cranemen~ mUMAw .. tally olerbJ etc., e3.

A.SU;. Thatis.tbe number &f employees of esta.blishment ~~ A I-No. They are what we call permanent employees. The permanent employees are split into U AU and t, B J' which have different leave ndea. That is what conatitutes the dift"erence between U A ,. and U B ". Our permanent .men are down at. 1,163 while our temporary men. are 3.29a.

A~Sl6. To hve a. number of qneltiODBJ would you 1rln41y send us .. written memoran-dum showing the difference in the matter- of privileges between U An and (l B" establilh menta !-Yea. We pave it aJ.l tahula.tedin. document a copy of which I can send on toy ....

A-317_ Would you tell us approximately the number of men who are emploYed by the p&rt Trut on dock labour. anch M loading, unloading and coaling t-It iSlthout 2& a &hip. Of oourae it depends on how many Ships are in.. , A-318. Am they eI>lployed direot I-No, through the stevedores.

A~319. Have you any approximate idea of the number of men who were engaged OJ!'" this work in the year 192tr25 ... compared with. the ounelf.t yee.r'l-I can work it out for you if you wa.nt to have that inform.ation..

A-32tJ_ Yeo, if I am not troubling you too muob I-We have the data, but it Ia not ClGlleoted.

22.

:A-32l. Do you. exercise Any control over the labour employed by oontractol'8 !-None whatever exoept in very 8mall detaila. For inatance. on the docks we insist that the appliancea ahould be up to our prescribed standard. We examine them for the safety of the workmen. . '

Am. Have you got a. record of the number of women and children that aN employed by contractor. f-None whatever~ '/ ~

A-323. Is it posSible to aaoertain that 1'-1 'Should have to write' to those people and uk. them. -how many women and children they employ. Th .. t is the only thing I can do.

A..a24. You would simply have to take what they -say; there is no record t-No ....

23

A~ Bec&uee you have other -rest houses 'W'hioh do not bel, them t-There it a. &MmeD.'a rest house. .

A..337~ That is not meantfOl' Indian ~en I-It is provided for aU classes and oreeu according to its (lOllItitution~

A-338. Yon ...... in favour of oonstruoliDg a separate OD& for the Indians I-It is a very good idea.

A-339. The number of Indian seamen is much IMgV than the number of those who-use the other net house '-I .should think 80. ,.

A-340. Yesterday we were iDspecting the loat specimens ()f your huts where the workers livo. The fint huts we saw were conet-ruuted of stra.w and your Mr. Flynn W88 trying, I think, to di..&own these huts. Oar Chairman, and many of our members and otheTa. including the representatives of 'Unions. were there+ You charge for each hut R& 1-8-0 per m.eneem 1-1 think thAt is correct.

A-ML It ...... Rs_ 112-0 belon., and y~o promised to redoce it to Re. 1_ Is that correct t Thoee are the facu; that we gathered there, seeing the huts and making enquiries from the people 1-1 am not quite certain~

&342. And then instead -of reducing it w Re. 1, you have increa.sed it to Re. 5? Is that correct l-No~ totally incorrect. I undentand you an! talk:ing about 1St hu~

A-342a. I told y_ I W1i8 referring to straw huts , A..-343. PIN C~: What is the present rent of the mat huts which you described

to 118 .. having been pot up at the time of tho plague !-Ra.1-8-0. . A-344- IIaa thet been changed !-N ot ao far ... I am &w"",.

. A-MD. Mr .,Ahmed: From which clM80f huted&youreaJiu rent attthe rate of RB. 6 per menaem 1-PtwrlJ .stone built houses.

A~346.. You etated SOm& time ago that you would reduce the rent from Rs. 1-120 or Ra. 1-8-0 to Re. 1. Instead of that you are oharging I}s. o. Some "f the huts ...... burnt some time ago '-Yes. "

A-347. And the f ... t was brought to your notice I-It WM. A-348. Th ... huts were oondemned by the municipal authority; that also " .. hroogM

to your notice by the municipal authority 2-I am afraid the fe.cta to which you rei~ have not been brought to my notice. I have never heard about it.

A-349. Wh&n th_ huts were lmrnt, some poople died .. & result of the me. I UDder-stand a man died 2-1 do nOot really know; not as result of the fire, I understand.

A300. You oharge at the rate of RI. 5 for SODle rooms or huts w buildings as a fixed oharge!-Y ...

A-361. They ..... of DDiform meaauzoment I-Yes. A~52.. And the. mea.aurement of oert&i.n shops is the same I-Yea, very likely .. A .. 303. You oharge for the shops at the rate of Re. 22 per moDth I-That is correeta A-3M. And f~r the dwelling. for wwkers Re. 5 per mouth 1-Yeo. A-350. What difterence is there I-We found that the shops -were being sublet. for

RI. 40 or R8. 00 per month, and we therefore thought an increase of the rEnt was indi-Gated. They were changing hands.at about ten times the rent we were ohaJging. They were being 8ublet at exorbitant ratea to outeiden.

A-356. Do you fonow the sa.me principle if the worken; want an increase in ~ rat_ of pa.y '-No~ that .is entirely di1ferent~

A..307. What ia the reason f.or cha.rging a higher lent for the shope !-1 believe it is w.ual to charge more for the s~ps than for a dwelling house.

A35S. I take it your principleis that .of a profiteering concern. Is that the prin-ciple 1-We thought it desirable to put up the rent of the ahops; we thought they were being ch&rged too smaU a. rent~

A359. Yeaterday some of ua also inspected the municipal ayatem of supplying aooommod&tion to the labourers s.t Lyari ~t Re. 1 per annum. You proba.bly know .about it !-No. I do not know it.

A.aoo.. Yon have stated under U Housing". that home nut i8 paid in the case cf the shunting .taft &t the rate of Ra. " per mensem in lieu of quarters. Why do you charge .l'ent of RI. ol-Thill is a case where the &bunting staff peot18 and chowlcidara are sup-poeed to get quarters if available. If quarter. are not ava.il&ble, we give them a. monthly

allowe.noe of B.a. 4." in lieu 'of qnarliera. That is the general pTactioo at K&l'achi.. In lieu of quarteI'8 we give Ra. -4 per menaem to those who are entitled to quart~ as well -u salary. H we cannot provide quarters we give them R&. 4 to aseia:t them to get quarto ...

A-361. .As you let the other houses at Rs. 4 hlLve you any objection to letting these housea also at Re. 4-1-Thi8 i.e & different cIN8 01 building. n I were building for theBe peon!-~ I certainly should not give them two rooms a.nd & verandah for Ra. 4 per DlOnth.

A-36Ia.. The GOet?f building these butt oil the Manor& side is lese than a.t Kea.mari 'I Youdonotknowthe6lD.ountspent"?-No.l eould not 8&y without .referring to my books.

A.S62. Yesterda.y morning we were very muoh intere&ted in looking at your ore&. which was being used to load a. steamer. You 8&y in your memorandum that it is con .eidered tha.t if the slinging and unslinging were done departmentally the men employed would, as '" whole. be better treated, &8 regards wages and homing oonditions. than is the oaae at present;: that is to 8&y by employing workmen instead of h&viDg cranes whloh have OR-used disasters: ?-That means engaging the men deparlmentally instead of through contractors. The_ cranes would alWAYS be there. A-36a. You 88.y it would probably be a very good idea to keep the men working instead of getting the contractor to do the slinging and U118linging work ?-Yes.

A.364. Then why do you not maintain a .:xed minimum number of men a8 permanent ha.nda. A:re you in fa.vour of doing that 1-No, I do nat tkink I am.

A365. Ii you kept a fixed minimam number of men as perma.nent hands, whenever ~cessa.ry you could en~, extra hands I-If it were done departmentally we would have to do that.

A.366. You are not. in favour of that !-No, not necessarily. -1 would prefer the preHent system myself. A-367. -You say that it hrings disaster, and our Chairman in the ~ asked .about workmen's compensation. I am coming to that point. You are in favour of bringing men e.8 permanent hands !'-No, not necesaaruy.

A.368.. Beoal.18e slinging and pnslinging work by crane ~eans diaaat.er 1-I trunk there is some mistake. The slinging work is done by coninctol'B now employe(:(by the Port Trust. In my memorandum when I speak of tim ~bility of it being done department&lly, I mean itoould be done departmentally as it is done in Eombe.y. Hen!' the system is not to do th.a.t but to employ contractors to do the work. The ma.chinery would be there whether it is departmenta1labour or contractor's labour. The (,'ranell would still be there. .

A369. But there will be gre&;ter disaster and the-refore YOb. will have to pay more for -workmen's compensation t-We find there is 110 tlisaster and that everythiDgworkB .... oothly.

The O~: It is merely a question between direc~ la.bour and cont1'6cOOrs labour.

A.370. Mr. Ahmetl: Regarding medio.d facilities y-Ou SAY that you pay a certain amount towards the maintenance of e. hospital ,somewhere 1-Yes, we 8uhscribe ha.nd~ somely. #4' ,

A-371. And you have two medioa.l a8Biatan~ one tot Keamari and .one at Ma-nora 7-YOI.

A.Sm But you do Dot undert&ke the 4ireot .... ponsibility yUllle!f of giving medical faoilities ina_d of sending them to the hospitala '-No- _

A.:n3. You have not got your own staff ~".\ hAve a mpdical officer who at.tends -three times a week for th~'ta.ft who are ill, ani in ManorA a medical officer attends 1mY-one who is lick. But generally a man who is very ill goes to the hospital or to hie own home.. .

A.a74. The hospital ia open to the public: ia open to ..-ybody; there ill DO Oiatin tion between .. patient who comes from the' Port TftlIlt a.D.d one who comes from outaide I-Tha.t ia true. .,

A-lI75. C&n you anggeat any other method I-No. we anbocribe n:y handSomely to the hospitala here &Dd we h&ve dispenaa.ries everywl\ere.

A..a7G .A:ny man in the .treet can get those facilities; but have you in the Port Trust any other means of giving the men tho required medioal facilities apart from sen~ them to the publio hospitals !-No, I .hould By we &1'8 not prepared to give further IaoiIitiu.

A-377. Pho ClIGinnaA: They .... alsO ai_like all the _t !-And '"' are --payers like eWIYbody eJse.

, A-378. iIlr.

26

appJiaDOOI. On the docks nnt-aid is usua.lIy supplied by the ehip. We have' & motor ambulance ready to take .. patient to tbe h'Otlipit.&l, which is olO8tl by.

A..394. I notice that you BUbeerlbe to the maintenance of the ambu1anoe .nd you alBo 81lbecribe to the Red Crou Asaooiation which maintains ., qualified nurse at Keamari ?-Yea.

A-395. Withregard to a question that was putto you about recreation. I rather gather that you: do not agree to- do what might be caDed J' welfare work" 1'-N~ that was Dot my idea. My idee. W88 not to interfere with the :recteationa of the people and to allow them to find their own reereationa:. Welfare work is rather different.

A396. You might easily .add to the activities which you support! 1I'0r inBtanoe .. you might add. welfa.re olinice for ha~ .creches and ante-natal clinic.. Would you be averse to extending your activities in those directions 1-Yes; I think it ill the duty of the municipality-within whose limits the Port Trost is. We are prepared to nb&cn"be-to any suoh institutions: but it is the duty of the municipality. not of the Port Truat, to provide th ... things.

A39'i. Ia it not the duty of employers to provide welfare faCilities lor their workers f -We prefer to do it in the shape of contributions.

A-3DS. Mr .AAmed asked you about the medical facilities -which you have provided for the lAbourers. I take it that yOu: are of the same opinion as myself that medica.l aid is much better given in a large well'equipped hospital than in a seri81 of smaD h08pit.am m&~tained independently.-Certainly.

A-399. Mr. J.fJ8M: What iJ the total number of workers employed in the docks. not merely by the PQrt T ...... but generally f

Th< OM ........ : We.re goin~ to be oupplied with some further figures. and this figure ea.n be 8l1pplied at the same time.

A-400. Mr. JOITt.i: In reply to Mr. Clow you said that there waa no une:mpioymeut. hut there was under-employment ?-It wsa :Mr. Clow himself who said that.

Mr~Cl6tt!: ldidnotnytha.t.either. I said it seemed to be more 'under-eJILploy. meat.

A-401. Mr. JOIIAi.: There is more UDder-employinent th~ unemployment !-y~ that is probably a better way of putting it. ..

A402. Have you made any enqu.iry about other employeei other than the empioyetoS of tho Port Trost !-No. ,

A--400. Now as regards thia queation of u.nder-employment. ie there any method by which you aan allot work to the different employeee1-You see we have had to shut down our worb OIl account of our financial situation MId unleaa a rev1val-of tc&de seta in I do not see any wa.y of helping them.

A404. Suppose at present you have got 4.000 workers and there i8 under--employment. which meana tha.t you allot work for two or three days & week to ail of them, how do you allot work which ia not suflicient for an the people for all the days of the week 1'-The und&r-employment is not among the Port Trust la.bourers. The men I have mentiGDM are working every day all the year round.. The under.employment exista among the ateveciOl'P8' men who are not getting any emp1oym~Dt on Account of the pauci9" of ohippiog. '

A-400. Have you any me-thod by whk-h tw"wou: could be Utriba.ted among th& people 1-1 have Dot got any method.

A406. Yon certainlY-t-hink it would be desirable to adopt BOme methoo by which th~ work could be distributed in 8l1ch a way .. to abolish 1IIlder-employment 1-1t would b& an exce1Jent thing if it wuld bedone. ~ "'=.<

A.407. Do you &Iso think it would be deeir&bJe ht Wo'pt some method by whkh the number of workers in the doolat would be restricted t.o tbose who penn&DeotJy work f-I ahoold like very much to get the population down. but I do not " how it is possible.

A408. In westerncountriea they have the, same diftkUltiee"aDd they haTe80Dle method of registering the worken. Tboae who He registen>d.re give.,. work. 1Fhe~ thow who are not registered are not generally given work. Y 011 would not be against BUt'h system ,--No. but it is rather difficult. ..

A.~. Can you tell us why your workers prefer to go aDd live in the toWn to li~ in yovhouel1'-Itiafor communal te88ODIJ. I have tried to ge'the men to live ., Keamari. ~

A-.UO. Perhape it may be 001"1; your rent may be too high for them !-It may, be ~ ume caaeI. Bat in many caaea our rent ia cheaper. Anyhow they prefer t.o live U1-Karachi and do not want to go to Keam.ri.

2'Z

A-4U. DoyoneV8l'findthat thepl'Opol'tionofrentto thetotal earninga: of your em.,. ployees. or any alass of your employeea. is too high l' You are oh&rging Ba. 0: &e rent in some oases 1-1 quite Bee your point. The difficulty is frequently got over by three or four menaharingahouse. We know that that happerm. Forinstanoe., if W& Wl;l'e to pay a man Ra~ 5 as rent allowe.noe, he woold not live in his h0U8& alone; he would imme,,: diately take in one or two frienda. The result would be the same..' .

A412. As t'8gards mediCal arrangemen~ the zepreaentative of the Sea.moo's Union Rated that .. certain class of people get the benefit of t~tment by a well qualified medical man, whereu the lower paid workers do not get the benefit of tre&tm.ent. by 80 well qualified a. man. Is that true t-It is not quite correct. Some of the workel'8 are not entitled to medical facilities which others are entitled to get. We have alocal dispensary at Keama.rl managed by the munioipa.lity and the ot'dina.ry working man, if he ie entitled to medical atten~ can go there and get attention ire&4 There are only two officers .. one deals with Hanom and the other who deals with Karaehi.

A-413. If You find that certain persons get the'benefit of treatment at the hands of a better qtCaJified man, while oert&in others who are low-paid get treatment a.t the hands of .leoo qualified man, will you chang that !-I think I should.

A-414. In .reply to Mr. Chaman Lall you said tllat you would like to have a sioknen insurance sop.eme for the permanent ataft only and not for the casu&! workers. What de) you mean by casual worken!-.1 WIt the man who comes to-day and goes. away to..morrow.

A4l5. You bAve a elMS of daily rated men !-There is a distinction. We have daily wages men who may come and. 'WOrk for two da.ya~ go .. ."ay, and then come back a week after; but we also have daily wages men in our workshops who are practically permanent while still on daily wages. ' .

A416. H Government prepares a scheme for sickness insarance. Will you pay your quota alBo !-I do not like-it in the caee of the ca.aual worker. one who works for a day or two and goes away. We have &' very large number of them.

- A-417. Have you found out how many of your workers are working in the docb for months together though they are :regarded as daily rated' W wId you call them oasual workors who should not be given the benefita of &icknes& msurance !-Yea. They are Dot on my list really. ' -

A-418. I am talking of the people on your list, tbose people who work in the-doeD not merely for & day but for ","1m togetber~ , Do you not think it would be justifiable for an employer to be asked to pay oerta.in proportion 88 his-share of the lIiokness iosUl'&nee PftImium !-l am not in fa.votD' of"it as I see it Bot present.

A-419. Why do you make a d.ifterence between a man wh&is paid da!ly and a man who D paid monthly ?-Because the man I pay monthly is under my observation and I know hiB habits &nd oharacter. A casual worker who oomesto me for a day or two may get aicknesa not through &By fault of his work, hut through his own fa.ult~

&-420. I am not ~g of the casual man; I am talking of the ma.n wh-o is: Pam daily but works for months together t-That is a very difterent thing. We have in the e.ngineeripg shops daily wages men who ha.ve been- with us for 25 yean. Those men "Would get the same bene6.ta 88 other employee.'! get.

A-42L J)dWf.J'1l OAamall Lall : Then you agree with Mr. Jo.shi t-Except in the case' of the cuuallabourer. .._

A422. ,Mr. Jo$hi : Have the Port Trust any ships registered under the Indie.nMerchanti Shipping Act !-We have one or two amall tugs.

A-423. So that you &N interested in questions relating to seamen !-Yea. A424. Have yon-any objection to the representative of labour on your Port Trust

being eleoted by the Port Trust Workers Union 1-1 should not like to 8&y~ It depends who it is. I might object to the man. I do not consider it is neoe8Iary at all.

A425. Suppose you want to seud your representative somewhere, certainly th80t reA' presentative will be selected by you. In the same way if you want a worken ~ repreaen-tativot tha.t representative mu&t be approved of and accepted by- the workers !-But I dO' DDt want a. workel'l ' representative on the Board.

A-426. Yon have one f-He is DOminated by Government. A427. You oannot explain why you are opposed to the wo;kera' :repreaent&tive being

electedl-I do not think it is neoe8aa.ty that he should be on the Board. H he is there I oannot: object. ,

A428. If he iI there, l:ou would prefer an elected man f-Not neoesaarily.

28 Ai29. Diwan uhama.o Lan referred., to ",fsty regul&tionII ; you said you are not agaiDt

tha t1-No. certainly not. ' A-430. You wonld not be opposed. to legisl&tion Iaymg down certain msuuree for the

safety- 01 workers who work on gangwa.ys and 90 on, loading or unloading f-Quite eo. ,

A-431. W .. yom' Port Trust conaulted by the Government. of india Oil this 'lueetion t-Wa were. .

. A432. WhatwaayourreplyT-Wesuggested that a GovemmentiIl8peotororinB~ tol'S should be appointed to ea.rry out the duties whioh are O&rried out "by the .Boarii of 'l'rade at Home .in such, matten ..

A-4.33. The qnestion is not who should a.ppoint an inspeotor; the firtt question ii: whether there should be 80me la.w laying down measures for the safety of men working1- . Yes. ..

A434. The aeound question would be> ae to who should inspect to see wRether thole regalatiollS are carried out or not. Then oertainly the Government will e.ppoint &l1 m-. spector. So my question to you was this.: whatever may have h&ppened in the peat, supposing your Part Truat is consulted now by Government as to whether such regula--tiona are desirable 01' not, your- Board. will most probably reply that as. far as you can judge regulations are necessary ?-Certainly. .

. A-436. PAe Chairman: You have promised to send a statement on the quest.ion. of reduction of working hours 1-I understand that was withdra.wn. \.

Mr. OUff: What. I withdrew was the question of your advice and recommendation to the Board; .. but I would like the resolution 1-I beg your pardon.

A-436. The Chairman; We did not- think it right to preas for internal advice given; hut I wa.nt to ask if you can give us with tha.t information two documents which I think may be takeil811 oft'icial documents. namely. the oommunicatiODB on that matterthatyou received from the two Chambel'8 of Commerce~ the European Chamber and the Indian. Chamber 1-1 am not oerl,a,in about it, hut 1 rather tb.iJik that tbe communication of the Cham her of Commerce was m.rked U Confidential H. The Chamber of Commerce eould give it..

A437. If it is confidential, of course' we ca.nnot ask for it 1-l' think most of thsir aom-mumcationa are marked U Confidential"; I am Dot certain:

A438~ If you find tha.t they can be put at o11l'service. we should like to lee them t-I shall talk to the President of the Cha.mber of Commerce ahout the matter.

A489. Mr .. Joshi: In the memorandum of the laboUr union it is S&id that you tlome- . times pay wages as late a.8 the 15th day of the fonowing month; a tha.t .. correct l5te.te-ment 1-1 think. that is ineorreot. Yau understand that 80metimea th-ree or four hon-days will intervene and then there may be late payment; but the whole thing haa been ~htenod up and my inform.tiona that our pa.yments am made with the utmost rapidity" frOm one to 5 da.ys after the end of the month in practically every .caee-. There may b8 an dolated case where & man for aome reason has not got his pay, but not IloS .. rule~ and certainly not 16 daye. .

(The wi_ .. withdn-r.l ....

Mr. JAMSHED N. B. MEHTA, PreaicJeni, Karac:hi MllDicipality. .

A-MoO. Pie 0""'"""": Mr. Mehta, you ore th:Pl.,n.mnt of the Momclpol COIlI1cil Kar&chi I-I am. - .

Pie OAainoan : 'M.y I take this opportunity, in the liM place. d.! thanlriDg Y011 on behalf of myaeif and my oolleagues for yOUI' lrind oourwv to UIl durint1: stay ~ May I uk you also to oonvey to your oiIiciala our sense of gratitude to for tbe lIer-:vices they have rendered to UB. I myseH. durini my abort time here. have formed .. very high opinion of the qualities of the st