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Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined
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medo
medo
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Post n°241
Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined
medo on Mon May 13, 2013 9:09 pm
Two faced array means twice the radar price... it has two
radar antennas fitted... twice the power required, twice
the processing needed, twice the cooling needed. The
payoff is double the update rate for information... but you
could have gotten that by replacing the gearing in the
motor turning the radar to make it spin twice as fast...
It's not that easy. Range and rotating speed are connected,
because radio signal travel with speed of light to the max
range and back. Longer range of radar, lower rotating
speed. If you increase rotating speed than you have shorter
range.
it that case they already have a kinda 3 faced radar there 2
for search and 1 for aiming ,4 faced aesa cant be that much
more expencive and would add together with fire&forget
missiles (certain percentage at least not all of them i
imagine a system could have 4 IIR and 4 active radar and 4
radio-command missiles for different targets) tremendous
all-around capability.
i think rotating turret is there mostly because of guns not
missiles.
Pantsir is mobile system, not stationary. It depend on its
own electrogenerator (APU), which give all energy for all
systems inside vehicle. Radars, communications,
computers, etc. You have to know few things. The strongest
radio signal have radio missile guiding antenna, but it only
work in time of missile flight. It have very high energy, that
missile got guiding signal to maximum range and that it is
stronger than any jammer so it could not be jammed.
Second strongest is tracking radar and it only work, when
targets are given to launch missiles and when missiles hit
target you turn it off. Search radar is not that energy
consumption device and it could work all the time as well as
communications, that is why you most easily jam search
radar. To place four AESA radars, which work as search
and as tracking radars, than you have to have much
stronger APU to feed them, but in mobile system you are
limited in this case.
This new Janus faced radar should have additional small
APU inside between two antennas, or reduced energy
consumption that the whole radar use as much energy as
the older one. You have better situation picture with this
radar, but if signal is weaker, than it is a question, how
much it is vulnerable to jamming.
-those javelin and eryx you posted didnt explode!!!
they just shut down and fall on the ground where can do
least damage!!!
, i mean for Pantcir it didnt fall to the ground ,it didnt shut
down it exploded , this is hot booster coming apart high
above the ground level raining hell all around it , hot pieces
of burning solid fuel from first stage and shrapnel from
second stage explosives also igniting ,would kill instantly
anyone and would do much more damage then small rocket
motors of eryx or javelin.
As I said earlier, not all missile fails are because of bad
production. They could also be because of bad handling
before placed on launcher. Maybe some connections inside
missile are out and main rocket engine will not work and
missile fall on the ground. On the other hand missile could
fall on the ground before and than the body of missile could
have cracks and when engine ignite, missile explode. There
could as well be problem with storing of missiles. If
containers are not hermetically closed, than humidity could
damage wire connections.
GarryB
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Post n°242
Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings
defined
GarryB on Tue May 14, 2013 2:42 pm
-that seadart is old naval missile probably expired ,and
there isnt anyone around the ship when its firing ,its
standard procedure ,but during war there is a good
chance there would be soldiers around Pantcir in the
marching column ...
That wasn't a new video... old missiles are a problem the
operators have to deal with... Sea Dart failure = serious
deck fire, Pantsir-S1 failure firework display 50m in front of
the vehicle.
There would be no soldiers milling around an operational air
defence vehicle... just as there would be no soldiers
hanging around the muzzle of a MBT in an operational
situation either.
-those javelin and eryx you posted didnt explode!!!
they just shut down and fall on the ground where can do
least damage!!!
So in every case where the camera man sht themselves
and duck for cover they are being silly?
You will notice that in the Pantsir-S1 video it was the
booster exploding, not the missiles warhead, which is not
armed till the missile gets to within 1km of the target.
Nothing shut down on those ATGMs... the charge to jettison
the missile from the tube fired but the missiles rocket motors
failed to accelerate the missiles down range to the target...
the warhead will not have armed but those rocket motors
could easily start up and send that missile anywhere...
nothing like self propelled UXO floating around a convoy...
, i mean for Pantcir it didnt fall to the ground ,it didnt shut
down it exploded , this is hot booster coming apart high
above the ground level raining hell all around it , hot pieces
of burning solid fuel from first stage and shrapnel from
second stage explosives also igniting ,would kill instantly
anyone and would do much more damage then small rocket
motors of eryx or javelin.
A very high energy solid rocket motor booster like that fitted
to the Pantsir-S1 is very close to the burning rate of
explosives, and the fault with the booster in this shot clearly
shows the propellent in the booster all burning at once...
looking very much like an explosion... but not actually being
one in the technical sense. If that booster could kill
everyone in 50m radius then why on earth would the military
waste their time with HE bombs when solid rocket boosters
are so lethal. The simple fact is that they are not... it would
be no more lethal than fireworks...ie no high supersonic
crushing blast wave, no shrapnel effective to any decent
range to be useful as a weapon. The missile payload would
not have been armed and would likely have landed largely
intact... if dented and scratched. An UXO issue a real
convoy in a real combat situation would probably just leave.
In an exercise the UXO ordinance personnel would be
brought in to deal with it and the exercise suspended till it
was sorted.
it seems the missile is turning during boost phase on many
videos probably using its canards on the front of second
stage ,they seem to be active from the start.
I was referring to hard turns, not small corrections.
it that case they already have a kinda 3 faced radar there 2
for search and 1 for aiming
Searching and tracking are two different functions.
The best comparison is with a tank crew... in a modern tank
you have three to four crewmen. The driver moves the
vehicle as directed by the commander who has a good view
of the terrain from high up in the turret. The radar functions
in a tank are performed by the gunner and the
commander... the gunner has his own sights with powerful
magnification and night and all weather capability but can
only see about 45 degrees and can only move their sight
about 30 degrees either side of where the tank turret is
facing. This is not a flaw in the design however as the
gunners job is to fire the main and coaxial gun at targets so
he does not need to see anywhere he can't or isn't pointing
the gun. The commanders job is two fold in terms of radar..
he looks for threats to the tank, and he looks for targets to
engage, so he has a 360 degree view and is regularly
scanning for threats and targets. Now lets say he spots a
group of enemy infantry that are 3km away in a light truck...
he will command the gunner to look at the bearing the target
is located on at the distance to the target and he might
order him to engage with HE, so the commander might
rotate the turret to face the target while he looks around for
other targets and threats. the gunner lases the target and
gets the range, which is converted into a flight time by the
computer and loads a HE round with an ANEIT fuse so the
shell airbursts directly above the enemy truck and places
the aim point directly on the target... the commander
suddenly spots a T-60 tank rumbling over a hill... the T-60 is
a threat to his tank and firing on the truck will reveal their
presence so the commander will order hold fire, new target,
new ammo so the new target will then be engaged.
On the Pantsir-S1 the two search radar will only search for
new targets and threats... an AH-64 due west firing 2
Hellfire missiles at the Pantsir-S1 would be a much higher
priority than most targets that are visible, though in this case
the Pantsir-S1 can engage up to 4 targets at once, and can
hand data to other vehicles it is operating with, so up to 24
targets can be dealt with at one time by a Pantsir-S1
battery.
,4 faced aesa cant be that much more expencive and would
add together with fire&forget missiles (certain percentage at
least not all of them i imagine a system could have 4 IIR
and 4 active radar and 4 radio-command missiles for
different targets) tremendous all-around capability.
Each radar element in an AESA is a radar that can cost
hundreds of dollars each. Each array has hundreds or
thousands of elements, so having four arrays, each with
1,000 elements with each element costing $200 each... we
are talking millions of dollars just for the radar antenna...
imagine the processing power needed to handle all that
data?
AESA are certainly getting cheaper, but the search radar
doesn't need to be hugely accurate... it is the tracking radar
that needs high precision.
As QWIP chips get cheaper then IIR seekers will become
more affordable. MMW radar homing seekers are already
not hugely expensive. I agree that in some situations having
terminally guided missiles would be useful... the HERMES
is based on the SA-22 and will have missiles with MMW
radar seekers and IIR seekers as well as SALH seekers, so
even a stealth target can have a laser pointed at it and
SALH missiles fired at it from a number of platforms.
Having said that the tracking radar of the Pantsir-S1 seems
to be very accurate so command guidance with autotracking
is exceptionally cheap and simple so you can buy an
enormous number of rockets and actually use them in
training... I would say of 12 that 8 being radio command and
perhaps 2 MMW radar guided and 2 IIR guided, would allow
the instant use of 4 missiles and about 5 seconds later
those guidance channels could be reused for radio
command guided missiles before the first missiles had hit...
so in practise 8 targets engaged at once per vehicle.
More interesting the artwork for the HERMES shows a light
truck carrying about 40 missile tubes... imagine two of those
operating with a battery to support them in a heavy attack...
and besides where would exhaust gases go?
Where do they go on Vikhr-M? It is a single stage missile
that is a beam rider... where does the rocket motor go on
most ATGMs?
Hint... as the fuel burns having a rear mounted rocket motor
would move the cg forward with the nose mounted warhead
making it too nose heavy and resulting in a nose dive. Many
rockets have rocket fuel in the centre of the missile vented
sideways and to the rear to propel the missile forward
without blocking the view back to the launcher so the
gionometer can track the missile.
It's not that easy. Range and rotating speed are connected,
because radio signal travel with speed of light to the max
range and back. Longer range of radar, lower rotating
speed. If you increase rotating speed than you have shorter
range.
This is very true for large powerful very long range radars
that need to keep looking till the signal has had time to go
out and come back, but not really relevant for Pantsir-S1.
i think rotating turret is there mostly because of guns not
missiles.
The missiles need to be pointed in the general direction...
making the missiles turn hard at launch wastes energy that
could have been used for speed.
On the other hand missile could fall on the ground before
and than the body of missile could have cracks and when
engine ignite, missile explode.
It might have been incorrectly stored and the solid fuel
might have developed internal cracks... a flame wave front
moving down a crack in a solid fuel missile can lead to far
too much propellent being ignited at once with a huge spike
in pressure that the fuel and missile walls cannot contain...
creating an explosion... think of a fuse... if you bundle it up
in a tight bundle instead of a single thread of material
burning it all burns at once and looks very much like an
explosion...
i think rotating turret is there mostly because of guns not
missiles.
_________________
10 years, trillions of dollars, thousands of soldiers dead, two
wars, state of the art technology, but the US finally found Bin
Laden.
In his house.
medo
medo
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Post n°243
Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings
defined
medo on Tue May 14, 2013 6:23 pm
This is very true for large powerful very long range
radars that need to keep looking till the signal has had
time to go out and come back, but not really relevant for
Pantsir-S1.
It is relevant for all radars. For example, Roland battery
radar (FGR) have range of 60 km and rotate with 50 rpm.
Roland fire unit (FRR) search radar have range of 16,5 km
and rotate with 60 rpm. Tunguska have similar range and
similar rotating speed, while Pantsir with longer range have
lower speed.
Rpg type 7v
Rpg type 7v
Master Sergeant
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Post n°244
Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings
defined
Rpg type 7v on Tue May 14, 2013 7:02 pm
GarryB wrote:
You will notice that in the Pantsir-S1 video it was the
booster exploding, not the missiles warhead, which is not
armed till the missile gets to within 1km of the target.
A very high energy solid rocket motor booster like that
fitted to the Pantsir-S1 is very close to the burning rate of
explosives, and the fault with the booster in this shot
clearly shows the propellent in the booster all burning at
once... looking very much like an explosion... but not
actually being one in the technical sense. If that booster
could kill everyone in 50m radius then why on earth
would the military waste their time with HE bombs when
solid rocket boosters are so lethal. The simple fact is that
they are not...
Searching and tracking are two different functions.
Where do they go on Vikhr-M? It is a single stage missile
that is a beam rider... where does the rocket motor go on
most ATGMs?
Hint... as the fuel burns having a rear mounted rocket
motor would move the cg forward with the nose mounted
warhead making it too nose heavy and resulting in a
nose dive. Many rockets have rocket fuel in the centre of
the missile vented sideways and to the rear to propel the
missile forward without blocking the view back to the
launcher so the gionometer can track the missile.
yet if you watch frame by frame it has 2 explosions first for
unknown reason booster explodes in the air ,then activates
second stage explosives and they detonate too ,yes the
blast- fragmentation explosive warhead.
warhead weight is 20kg and the whole second stage is 30kg
, besides warhead occupies the central part of the missiles
2/3 of length of it .
there is no sustainer nore base base bleed ,and there are
no tubes on the side of the missile i think you need to drop it
already...
Rpg type 7v
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Post n°245
Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings
defined
Rpg type 7v on Tue May 14, 2013 7:06 pm
GarryB wrote:
Each radar element in an AESA is a radar that can cost
hundreds of dollars each. Each array has hundreds or
thousands of elements, so having four arrays, each with
1,000 elements with each element costing $200 each...
we are talking millions of dollars just for the radar
antenna... imagine the processing power needed to
handle all that data?
AESA are certainly getting cheaper, but the search radar
doesn't need to be hugely accurate... it is the tracking
radar that needs high precision.
i dont think you need that this is a short range system
requiring detection ranges of 30ish km and aiming power
out to 18-20km.
that means it would need much less elements then fighter
radars of 150-200km detection
.i remember zhuk-ae having up to 700 elements for
something like 150km track/ this radar could have 200
elements easy on 1 side, *4= 800 elements in total.
medo
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Post n°246
Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings
defined
medo on Tue May 14, 2013 10:18 pm
yet if you watch frame by frame it has 2 explosions first
for unknown reason booster explodes in the air ,then
activates second stage explosives and they detonate too
,yes the blast- fragmentation explosive warhead.
It was actually exactly what I was explaining. There wasn't
two explosions, but booster engine ignition and than
explosion, what is actually consequence of cracks in solid
rocket fuel. This is actually what happened, when container
with missile fall from the hight even in the warehouse or in
the time of loading. That is why there are very strict safety
roles, when handling with missiles and why missiles, if fall
or anything similar, must not go on launcher but in
destruction.
GarryB
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Post n°247
Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings
defined
GarryB on Wed May 15, 2013 2:11 pm
i think rotating turret is there mostly because of guns not
missiles.
Both the guns and the missiles need to be pointed at the
target.
yet if you watch frame by frame it has 2 explosions first for
unknown reason booster explodes in the air ,then activates
second stage explosives and they detonate too ,yes the
blast- fragmentation explosive warhead.
Have watched several times... after being blown from the
tube the main rocket booster starts to ignite and the whole
booster explodes... look at full Pantsir-S1 videos with
interceptions of targets and you will see a bright orange
flash and black smoke when the real HE warhead
explodes... there is no explosion of the HE warhead in this
video.
...and nor would one expect their to be, the propellent would
not be sufficient to set it off as it is burning rapidly rather
than exploding and the fuse of the warhead would not be
armed yet.
warhead weight is 20kg and the whole second stage is 30kg
, besides warhead occupies the central part of the missiles
2/3 of length of it .
there is no sustainer nore base base bleed ,and there are
no tubes on the side of the missile i think you need to drop it
already...
Do you have an official drawing of the SA-22 missile (as
opposed to drawings of earlier missiles with much shorter
range?)
i dont think you need that this is a short range system
requiring detection ranges of 30ish km and aiming power
out to 18-20km.
that means it would need much less elements then fighter
radars of 150-200km detection
.i remember zhuk-ae having up to 700 elements for
something like 150km track/ this radar could have 200
elements easy on 1 side, *4= 800 elements in total.
The elements are fixed and the radar scans by turning
elements on and off... the more elements the greater
precision of tracking. If you only want 200 elements per face
then your accuracy in tracking will be greatly reduced...
keep in mind this radar needs to be able to track very very
small targets like missiles and bombs and stealthy cruise
missiles.
_________________
10 years, trillions of dollars, thousands of soldiers dead, two
wars, state of the art technology, but the US finally found Bin
Laden.
In his house.
Rpg type 7v
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Post n°248
Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings
defined
Rpg type 7v on Wed May 15, 2013 5:24 pm
then where did the second stage go? its not seen on any
frame after explosion. it had to fly off somewhere if it was in
1 piece. and there are 2 types of debries falling on the
ground...
aesa that size is good enough for 15-20km ranges like i
said. you arent going to aim it 100kms away... even current
pesa aiming radar looks alot like kopyo radar from mig-21
upgrade program, even smaller.
look at this video at start there is turning using canards
during boost phase , and black smoke when the missile
explodes>? where is orange?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-dQZgPo_PY
GarryB
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Post n°249
Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings
defined
GarryB on Thu May 16, 2013 5:54 am
look at this video at start there is turning using canards
during boost phase , and black smoke when the missile
explodes>? where is orange?
The video you provide clearly shows a ball of black smoke
when the warhead detonates near the target and there is no
black smoke in the video of the booster failure. The
presence of an orange flash probably depends on the
shutter speed of the camera filming and the general light
conditions, but with some interceptions... especially the long
range interceptions you often see an orange flash and black
smoke when the target is intercepted.
then where did the second stage go? its not seen on any
frame after explosion. it had to fly off somewhere if it was in
1 piece. and there are 2 types of debries falling on the
ground...
Looking again at it frame by frame there are three black
dots... I suspect the booster blowing up probably exerted an
assymetrical force on the missile and broke it into 3
pieces... but the warhead did not explode because there is
no black smoke.
_________________
10 years, trillions of dollars, thousands of soldiers dead, two
wars, state of the art technology, but the US finally found Bin
Laden.
In his house.
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Post n°250
Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings
defined
Rpg type 7v on Thu May 16, 2013 7:44 pm
those were parts of canards and other electronic blocks in
the second stage flying apart ... you can even see
fragments from fragmentation warhead bouncing off the
ground after explosion -ive seen that before.
what happened is that the booster is much bigger and its
violent explosion masked the explosives in the second
stage going off.
GarryB
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Post n°251
Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings
defined
GarryB on Fri May 17, 2013 3:43 am
So where is the cloud of black smoke that clearly lingers in
the air for several seconds... as shown in the video you
posted showing the warhead exploding next to a target?
those were parts of canards and other electronic blocks in
the second stage flying apart
Lets be clear... there is the booster and the missile stage...
those three black dots were pieces of the missile stage.
Over several frames those black dots don't change in size
so they are not flat surfaces like canards or tail fins that
would be spinning in the air as they fell, they are sections.
Looking at the dark line that is the missile at launch
perspective would mean that the very slim missile will look
smaller than the booster and as it moves away as it
launches will get smaller and smaller... if it is broken into
three pieces what makes you think the warhead exploded?
Looking at your video of tethered targets with the missile
exploding nearby... where is the missile there?
Looking at the cross section of the older missiles most of
the missile body is explosive... if it had exploded there
would not be three black dots as they would likely have
been shattered into tiny pieces like they are when the
warhead explodes near the target.
_________________
10 years, trillions of dollars, thousands of soldiers dead, two
wars, state of the art technology, but the US finally found Bin
Laden.
In his house.
Rpg type 7v
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Master Sergeant
Posts: 305
Points: 222
Join date: 2011-05-01
Post n°252
Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings
defined
Rpg type 7v on Fri May 17, 2013 2:54 pm
hmm good point there , it seems it did crack and seperate
into 3 pieces from the jolt of exploding booster or the
shockwave , frontal with canards central with explosive and
rear with rear finns infact that part can be seen .they fly into
air and away from the view of camera , too bad the video
isnt longer with debris collected and post analysis .
anyway not that its comforting booster is much bigger then
explosive fragmentation warhead and the way pieces
bounce of the ground it would be quite deadly to anyone
nearby.
Aaand back to radar i dont think a 4 faced pyramidal type
aesa wouldnt be that bulky , it would certainly weigh less
then rotating passive search radar and aiming radar.
I think price has fallen for commercial GaAs transistors now
from 2000->1000$ per unit. i think if u have 2-3 times less
elements on that plate there would be lots of room between
them so you could skip liquid cooling and use air cooled
chips making it even lighter.
I found this chart showing momentum of the missile during
its flight, its obvious it has just first stage booster unlike Tor
system which has 2 stage missile with sustainer rocket
motor. Also deceleration of crotale missile shown the drag
penalty of larger diameter missile.
Rpg type 7v
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Post n°253
Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings
defined
Rpg type 7v on Fri May 17, 2013 11:32 pm
Well it seems i was right all along.
And you guys were wrong...
After some research i found out that new version- Pantsir-
SM is in development...that should rectify original pantcirs
shortcomings...
Hmmm i wonder how will it look like?
This is latest news.
https://vk.com/wall-25189118_80589
http://www.biztass.ru/news/id/69596
http://tula.bezformata.ru/listnews/poluchit-kredit-pochti-na-5-
mlrd/11523737/
xeno
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Post n°254
Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings
defined
xeno on Fri May 17, 2013 11:51 pm
Great news.
Pantsir-S1, which is the best system in the world compared
with similar types of other countries, willl get even better.
Hope the Pantsir-SM project will be a success...
TR1
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Post n°255
Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings
defined
TR1 on Sat May 18, 2013 12:29 am
Rpg type 7v wrote:Well it seems i was right all along.
And you guys were wrong...
After some research i found out that new version-
Pantsir-SM is in development...that should rectify
original pantcirs shortcomings...
Hmmm i wonder how will it look like?
This is latest news.
https://vk.com/wall-25189118_80589
http://www.biztass.ru/news/id/69596
http://tula.bezformata.ru/listnews/poluchit-kredit-pochti-
na-5-mlrd/11523737/
You were right because the Pantsir continues to get better?
Your logic is terrible.
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