agypsyskiss.com · Web viewWally Johnson Interview of. Forrest Fenn. October 17, 2006. Buffalo Bill Historical Center. Courtesy of: A Gypsy’s Kiss. Agypsyskiss.tv. Agypsyskiss.com

Wally Johnson Interview ofForrest FennOctober 17, 2006Buffalo Bill Historical Center

Courtesy of:A Gypsy’s KissAgypsyskiss.tv

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Interviewer: Wally Johnson interviewing Forrest Fenn and it's October

17, 2006 and we're at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center. How did you first

get involved with the Buffalo Bill Historical Center?

Fenn: Well, I probably have more longevity here than anybody. I was in

this museum in 1930.

Interviewer: What were you doing here then?

Fenn: Well, I was less than one-year-old and my father was a

schoolteacher in Texas, so he had the summers off and we always came

through Cody on the way to Yellowstone. And, we always stopped at

the Buffalo Bill; it was across the street from where the Chamber of

Commerce is now.

Interviewer: What your fresh memory of the Buffalo Bill Historical

Center?

Fenn: My first memory was a big stuffed buffalo. And Dick Frost was the

director. As a matter of fact, he was the only employee as far as I know.

But I remember Dick Frost showing me that big buffalo and years later I

got to know Dick pretty well and we laughed about that Buffalo. I think

it fell apart. The bugs got it.

Interviewer: Now did you come out here every year? (Interruption and

Restart) What year was that?

Fenn: It was 1930.

Interviewer: Okay but you don't remember things from when you were

a-year-old, do you? You knew you were-

Fenn: Now just a minute! Don't put restrictions on me! I think I must've

been about seven at that time. We were camped at Fishing Bridge over

in the park and in those days we could camp there right across…on the

left, going in, and God, there were hundreds of tents there! We spent

three months there, for four or five years in a row.

Interview: what year were you born?

Fenn: 1930

Interviewer: What your birthday?

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Fenn: August the 22nd.

Interviewer: And what are your parents' names?

Fenn: My father's name is Marvin Fenn…was his name, and my mothers

name was Lily Gaye Simpson Fenn.

Interviewer: And where did you grow up?

Fenn: I grew up in Temple, Texas. Right in the center of Texas.

Interviewer: what did your parents do?

Fenn: My father, when I was a very young boy, my father ran the YMCA

in Temple. And then the war came along and they changed it to the

USO. But my father, when I was six, I started in first grade and my father

started in that same school as a math teacher. So, we went to school

first day together.

Interviewer: Isn't that interesting?

Fenn: And he later became the principal and he was my principal until I

went to the seventh grade at which time he went to another school and

became the principal.

Interviewer: That must be about the same time when you saw the

Buffalo with Dick Frost. First grade, six years old?

Fenn: Probably.

Interviewer: So you were coming out here every summer for a vacation

with your parents?

Fenn: For three months.

Interviewer: every summer?

Fenn: Every summer.

Interviewer: That's wonderful.

Fenn: Well, my father got a Masters degree in North Texas in 1939, so

we skipped that one. I was nine but that's the only one that we skipped

until I joined the military.

Interviewer: So every year, your entire formative years, you spent three

months up here?

Fenn: Uh-hum. And then after about six years camped at Fishing Bridge

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we moved over to West Yellowstone. And my father built a motel over

there and then later, I built a motel over there.

Interviewer: Is that right?

Fenn: Yeah. And we were both professional fishing guides. When I was

12, I was a professional fishing guide, ran a tackle shop in West

Yellowstone. The name of the shop was Don Martinez Tackle Shop. And,

he was always drunk. Hell of a fisherman. But, for two months he didn't

come to work and I was the only employee. So I sat there and tied flies. I

could tie 12 dozen woolly worms in one workday.

Interviewer: Now, during this entire period when you were a teenager

and you were also fishing guide during the summer?

Fenn: For three or four of those years from 12…till I was about 15, then I

was a lumberjack one year when-I think 16. Spent the summer out in

the bush cutting lodge pole pines with two other guys and we had

nothing. I mean, our rule was we were going to be Lewis and Clark. So

we could take three candy bars for three months. We had sleeping bag.

We didn't have tents. But we had equipment to fell trees and then we

had to peel them, skin them. And I remember those summer

thunderstorms in Montana, cold…

Interviewer: now during this entire period of time you came over and

visited the Buffalo Bill Historical Center-

Fenn: We would go through Cody on the way to West Yellowstone. It

was the most direct road but we always stopped and spent, I don't

know how much time…enough time to go through the whole thing. It

was the highlight of our trip really

Interviewer: Now how did you get to West Yellowstone? How did you

get into the park? Did you come in-

Fenn: We took-

Interviewer: Did you drive?

Fenn: We drove up and during the war gasoline was rationed. You had

to have coupons to buy gas. And tires were rationed. So we drove 30

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miles an hour for 1600 miles in June with no air conditioning to get up

here. That's how badly my father wanted to come Yellowstone and it

took us five days to go 1600 miles and that's driving from daylight to

dark.

Interviewer: Now after high school what you do?

Fenn: Well the Korean War started about that time and I made, I was a

terrible student. My father was horribly embarrassed for me. I mean I

pray for D’s and nobody ever listened. When I graduated I think

probably my father probably had something to do with my graduation.

The reason, for-one of the reasons I was a terrible student was because

I looked out of the window a lot and I just couldn't understand why I

was sitting in a classroom when there was so much, so many wonderful

things going on outside. Never figure that out. You know education is

like religion, you know, some people need more of it than others and in

my case it was like a smallpox vaccination. It didn't take.

Interviewer: When you got out of high school, what did you do?

Fenn: I went-I was into sports. So I went to Temple Junior College for

two years to play basketball but I didn't much go to class. But in those

days if you enrolled you can play basketball and you didn't have to go to

class. That was the good part about it. If you paid your tuition.

Interviewer: In your hometown?

Fenn: Yeah

Interviewer: Okay and did you get a degree?

Fenn: No

interview: When you were done, what do you next?

Fenn: When the Korean War started in early September 1950, as I recall

it was three days old when I joined the Air Force. Because I didn't…I was

recently out of high school. Didn't have anything to do, didn't know

anything, and it was something to do. You know, I'd never thought

about the military but here, they needed people so I joined.

Interviewer: So that, you must've been about 20 years old then?

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Fenn: I was 20 years and one month

Interviewer: So would been about 1950, at the beginning of the war?

Fenn: (Nods his head).

Interviewer: And in what capacity did you serve?

Fenn: Well I was a private and they give me an aptitude test, aptitude

test showed that I should be a radar mechanic. That says a lot for their

aptitude test. But I did that. I went to the night shift school in Keesler Air

Force Base in Biloxi Mississippi, went to school from 6 o'clock to

midnight, five days a week for nine months and I graduated a radar

mechanic and a radio operator. And then they transferred me out to

Greenville South Carolina where I flew on C 47's, C 46's, C 119s and C

82s as a radar operator and radio mechanic. And radio operator.

Interviewer: And how many years did you do that?

Fenn: Well it was very boring. I was pretty much a maverick. I didn't like

what I was doing. I liked the flying part but I didn't like the getting down

and that was before transistors. So you know, you had tubes you had to

mess with and I didn't like that so I volunteered for everything I could

volunteer for just to get out and the Korean War was hitting up pretty

good so they accepted me in the pilot training. And the only thing I had

to do to get into pilot training, because I didn't have any degree, you

know, they wanted you to be, they wanted college graduates. But they

put me in this little machine and there was a stick here keeps the

machine level and there were springs and if you didn't keep it level, it's

going to fall one where the other. But I could fly that thing and the

sergeant that was running it said I could fly that thing better than

anyone he ever saw before. So I said, "This is easy! I can do this". So I

went to pilot training

Interviewer: What year did you start pilot training?

Fenn: My class was 53 George, so that would've been about September

1953 and I went in as...I was a sergeant when I went to pilot training

and the busted me back to aviation cadet. So I went from about 135

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bucks a month in pay to 75 bucks a month and pay. For 13 months as an

aviation cadet.

Interviewer: Now, I'd like to just get a chronology so that we have

framework in the record. When you got out...What year did you get out

of the military?

Fenn: I retired in 1970.

Interviewer: 1970

Fenn: In order to retire you have to serve at least 20 years but you have

to retire on the first day of the month - or the last day of the month. So

it cost me 24 days extra. And I was ready to get out

Interviewer: And what did you do when you got out?

Fenn: When I was in the Air Force over in Lubbock Texas I met an art

teacher at Texas Tech University and he was a neat guy. He could make

things with his hands, wax and Clay, and he made an Indian about 2 feet

high holding two rabbits in one hand and a boy in the other. And I like

that thing. It was made of wax. And he said, "I tell you what. If you'll

that in bronze, I'll give it to you." I said, "well I can do that." So I was still

the Air Force and I jumped in an Air Force airplane and flew around the

air material depots in the Air Force, Oklahoma City and San Antonio,

trying to scrounge things. I've never seen molten metal before but, I

may furnace out of a vacuum cleaner motor and the only thing I could

make was a crucible made out of silicone carbine, and so I scrounged up

enough money, I think I paid 28 bucks for crucible, but I didn't have the

money to buy bronze with, so I made a minute requisition down to the

Texas Tech football field and I apprehended about 6 sprinkler heads.

Interviewer: Liberated?

Fenn: I liberated them, yeah and I always feel bad about that because

they had a losing football season that year, but later on I made it up to

them because, I give their museum some pretty nice things later on.

Interviewer: Now…was this the beginning of your post military career?

Fenn: Yes

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Interviewer: And what was that career?

Fenn: Well the art business, I started out..

Interviewer: This is for posterity now, so tell us about the art business.

Fenn: Well I started casting bronzes in the garage after work in Lubbock

and I'd run a hose out of my living room fireplace out through the living

room across the kitchen floor through the pantry and out into the

garage. And I sent my furnace in the garage. I could, in about four hours

I could melt 20 pounds bronze. Now they are melting 20 tons in 10

seconds, but that was pretty good for me because I had, I think, about a

quarter pound gas coming out of my fireplace. But I made that work and

the first time I poured bronze, I didn't have anybody to help me. The

pouring shank was heavier than that crucible, so I stacked up

cinderblocks to hold one end of it while I poured the bronze and that

thing, I learned a lot because it's a very complicated business. I learned

that you don't pour bronze on a cement floor. Bronze is very hot, 2100°,

and if you spell a couple of drops on a cement floor that has moisture in

it, then the cement floor explodes and it, you know, pops up. So I went

through all of those learning processes. And, I hold the world's record

for making mistakes in bronze casting

Interviewer: Now did you have foundry in Lubbock?

Fenn: I later built a little a little foundry. I rented an old grain elevator. I

didn't have any money but I hired a couple of people that would allow

me to pay them when I sold something. They were learning the business

too. We pioneered the whole thing. I made all my own molds and I

remember, if you go to a foundry today, take them piece of art, they

need to make a mold and then they need to make copies and pull them

and pour them and sprue them chase them and patina them...You

talking about six weeks. But I really wanted to pour Joe Grandee’s (sic)

bronze. He was a big name in Texas and he had made a little Seventh

Calvary officer with a hat on it. Hats are terrible for broadcasting. But I

said, "I want to pour that thing for you." And he said, "well, how long

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would it take me get two copies in bronze?" I said," well tomorrow

afternoon would be okay" and he couldn't believe it. But I worked

around the clock until tomorrow afternoon and I delivered him two

bronzes. He couldn't believe it. Really, I didn't either. But I did that. I

wanted it so bad and I taught myself a lot of things along the way. I

taught myself that you can make it work if you just make it work, I mean

I can't tell you how many times in my hard career where I came to a

decision and I just didn't know what to do. Am I going to do this or am I

not going to do it? And I decided that I had an old alarm clock. A windup

alarm clock and I would set it to five minutes till 12 and pull the alarm.

And I said "if I don't make a decision before the alarm goes off, I'm just

going to say something and no matter what I say, going to make it

work." And it was beautiful thing for me to do, it forced me to make

decisions. I learned about 20 years later that it didn't really make a

difference which way I went because I was to make it work either way.

That was my attitude…and I remember when, my early days in the art

gallery business, because I didn't know anything. I mean, my whole

career had been flying fighter airplanes. So I never went to college, I

never studied art, I never studied business, I didn't own a painting, I

didn't know anybody that did. So I started at the bottom of. I remember

the first two shows I had in my gallery, I didn't sell a piece of art or a

book or anything and I remember that this trader came in to see me. He

had a basket and he wanted $500 for the basket and $500 was a lot of

money for me and I told him that I didn't want the basket, I didn't tell

him that I couldn't afford it. I told him that I didn't want, so he left. And I

really got mad at myself. I said, "why didn't I want that basket?" So I just

decided that I was going to start saying yes to everything. I didn't know

what it was worth and so the question is not what is it worth, but what

can I sell it for? Can I sell and make a few bucks?

Interviewer: And when did you relocate your business to Santa Fe?

Fenn: in 1972. I retired from the Air Force in 1970, stayed in Lubbock

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casting bronzes and ran a little foundry for a couple of years and then

moved to Santa Fe.

Interviewer: And what made you decide to go to Santa Fe?

Fenn: I had a bad tour in Vietnam. I was shot down twice and I took

battle damage 28 times, you know what I mean? I flew 328 combat

missions in 348 days. I lost 22 pounds and didn't even know it. When I

came home, I had an attitude, you know, I was tired, I...I had turned

against the war in Vietnam because of the things that I saw and the

things that I did and I wanted to go someplace where the world would

stop and let me out for a while and Santa Fe was the only place I knew

where I could wear blue jeans and a short sleeved shirt and hush

puppies and make a living. That's why I moved to Santa Fe.

Interviewer: so, the Fenn galleries originated in 1972 and what kind of

art did you deal with then?

Fenn: Well I started out dealing with anything that I can scrounge. But I

ended up dealing mostly with Western paintings. I did have Hudson

River school, Ashcan school, Brandywine...I really liked particularly the

Brandywine painters...N. C. Wyeth, Harvey Dunn, and Howard Pyle and

that bunch. But I did very well with the Taos school also.

Interviewer: Now during the 30 years of your primary activities, who are

some of the major artists, Western artists, that you developed?

Fenn: Well I built a market for Nikolai Fechin, Leon Gaspor, Joseph

Sharp, primarily. We went from $3500-$750,000 in 20 years but then all

of the, all of the Western painters...I had...Once I got started going a

little bit, I never did want to borrow money because I was always

worried that I couldn't pay back. So, when I got to the point of my

business where I can operate out of Accounts Receivable instead of

owing the bank some money, I got...I started buying more than

consigning. I liked what I call eat them up alive painters; Russell,

Remington, as opposed to the tranquil painters like the Taos School. But

I like all of it, you know. I learned...One of the big lessons I had to learn

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was not to buy something just because I liked it. I had to learn to buy it

hoping somebody else would like it. I remember one of the first lessons

I had. It was a wonderful lesson. I had a good friend that brought a

dealer to me from Amarillo. And the two of them talked me into buying

a black and white Gilbert Gaul painting. Gilbert Gaul was a Civil War

painter and a pretty good painter, but this was a black and white

painting of a man standing on a bridge holding a smoking pistol and

there's a dead dog laying on the bridge, bleeding all over the bridge.

And I told people...I used to lecture down at UNM in the business school

in the art school and I told those students that I made millions of dollars

with that painting because I kept it for about five years and I couldn't

sell it to anybody. I finally traded it to the Houston Art Museum for two

little French paintings that I sold for $1500 apiece and I gained $5500 for

the Gilbert Gaul. I told them that I made a lot of money on that painting

because I learned about friends, I learned about dealers, I learned about

Gilbert Gaul, I learned about black-and-white paintings, I learned about

smoking guns, I learned about dogs bleeding on a bridge and I never

made any of those mistakes again

Interviewer: Now let me focus you in on Sharp and draw you back to

the Buffalo Bills Historical Center because I know you've been very

active in developing the Sharp collections here and have given a

substantial amount of that material to our archives. How did that

happen?

Fenn: In Santa Fe, I had a gallery in Santa Fe and the people in town,

everybody in town knew me. Because it was a little town. A lady lived

across the street from me and had a radio program. It was a gossip

program. 15 minutes a day. She talks about who is coming in who is

going what the judge was doing and everything like that sort of thing.

But she told me that she had a scrapbook. A Joseph Sharp scrapbook.

She never would let me look at it. But I know that she knew those old

Taos painters. She had a stroke and died. I used to advertise with her a

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lot, only to buy, not to sell. She would say, "listen, ladies, go up in your

attic and dig up that box of old photographs and Mr. Fenn will buy those

from you and he will pay you a fair price" and got those little old ladies

lined up and down the street. Her name was Lorraine Carr and she was

really neat old lady. She had a stroke and died. And as luck would have

it, she had a nephew that was dating my youngest daughter. And so I

talked him into letting me go through the material in her house and find

that scrapbook, which I did. And I bought that scrapbook. And I started

reading it and then the things that Sharp's wife had put in the scrapbook

where diabolically opposed to everything I had read about Joseph

Sharp. So I said, "well why don't I just correct the record on these

things?" And that's how I got started. It took me four years to research

and write the book, but I was, I'd do that after work everyday. And I was

still running my gallery eight or nine hours a day.

Interviewer: what was the name of the book?

Fenn: “The Beat of the Drum, and the Whoop of the Dance.” And that's

the only phrase I made up in the entire book. In the front of the book,

it...I needed a road to get me into the book so I made up a couple of

lines that said, "a reporter went to Mr. Sharp and asked him if, in the

twilight of his life, having been deaf from age 14, what did he regret

most?" And I quoted him as having said, "I never heard the beat of the

drum or the whoop of the dance." People who read my book tell me

that's the greatest line in the book and it's the only one that I made up.

So that says something for history right there.

Interviewer: That says a lot about history. Now, when did you reconnect

with the museum here in Cody? Our last conversation about the

museum was when you were six years old and looking at a motley

buffalo.

Fenn: My heart was always in Yellowstone. Cody was on the way to

Yellowstone and the Buffalo Bill museum was on the way to Cody so,

you know, it all kind of tied together, you know? And when I had my

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gallery for 17 years and even before I had my gallery in Santa Fe, I was

giving things to the Buffalo Bill. I can't tell you how many paintings I

gave them, probably 25 or 30 paintings and lots of other stuff. I mean

endless stuff and there's just something...It kind of made me part of it. I

think a lot of it was memories of my mother and father and the trips in

the wonderful fishing. It was all kind of married together.

Interviewer: did your relationship begin after you got into the art

business? Or was it active when you were in the Air Force?

Fenn: Well my ability to participate came in after I was in the art

business because I, you know, I didn't have anything to give them until

then.

Interviewer: But you were still traveling up here when you were in the

Air Force on your leave?

Fenn: Every year. I was stationed in Germany for three years, but I'd

come home each year and I'd come to the Buffalo Bill, you know. On my

way to Yellowstone. The Buffalo Bill, I don't think, was ever a

destination for me. It was part of the draw. I think a lot of people come

to feel like I feel about Yellowstone and that same context the Buffalo

Bill.

Interviewer: Now you must have known then virtually every director.

Fenn: Well, I know Harold McCracken very well and, as a matter of fact,

the word was out that he was writing a book on Joseph Sharp. So I came

up to see him and I told him that I was thinking about writing a book

about Sharp myself because but if he was going to do it, then I wouldn't.

He told me that he was living in the little house over here – that the

museum owns. And we're sitting in his library and he said, "You know,

Forrest, I'm not going to get around to writing that book. I'd like for you

to do it." So he gave me all of his Sharp material including a number of

original material, all of his pencil drawings, the bibliography, the

biography that he had written and it jumpstarted me into the Sharp

book.

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Interviewer: Now, what year was that more or less?

Fenn: That must've been about 1982. My book came out in 1984, so it

would have been 1980.

Interviewer: When were you made a member of this Board of Trustees?

Fenn: Must've been about six years ago. What is this? 2006?

Interviewer: Yeah. About six years ago?

Fenn: Yeah. A must've been about...The first winter meeting we had

was in Washington. And I think that was six years ago.

Interviewer: I was trying to get the time. What other memories do you

have of Harold McCracken? And impressions?

Fenn: I found him to be a very gentle man. And I asked him, when I was

almost through writing my Sharp book, I called him on the phone and

asked him if he would write the foreword to it for me. He said yes he

would. In the meantime, he wrote Frank Kenny Johnston book and I had

an autograph party for him in my gallery down in Santa Fe. As a matter

of fact, I published with Doubleday the Limited edition of Harold

McCracken's book on Frank Kenny Johnston. So, yeah, I was pretty close

to him and so now my book is finished but I don't have the foreword to

my book. So I called Dr. McCracken on the phone and I said, "how are

we doing on that thing?" He said, "well I'm in the process right now of

writing you a letter." And we talked for a minute and hung up. Three

days later, I got a letter that says, "Forrest, I'm in the hospital dying and

I'm not going to be able to write the foreword to your book." I have that

letter bound in one of my books that I showed you yesterday. So I talked

Fred Rosenstock into writing the forward to my book. And I love that old

man Fred Rosenstock.

Interviewer: Please explain who Fred Rosenstock was for posterity here.

Fenn: When I first started collecting books, there were...I had two gods

in my inventory. One was Fred Rosenstock, the other one was Jeff Dykes

in Washington. I didn't have any money, but those guys know I liked

books, so they would make me a deal on a book and I would even trade

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bronzes. I had more bronzes than anybody. Maybe that's why I was so

broke. But, my father said, one time I was so broke that I had to borrow

money from friend just to get out of debt. But, that's the way it went in

those days and those were good days. Fred Rosenstock wrote a

wonderful foreword to my book.

Interviewer: And he was an art and book dealer from Denver Colorado.

Fenn: That's right and he had a big Charlie Russell collection that he sold

at Sotheby’s. I spent many hours in his storeroom in Colfax Avenue in

Denver. Talking about books and art. As a matter of fact, there was a

book called “Trail Drivers of Texas” and it had a frontis piece, was a

great painting by Charles Marchand or was it John Marchand? Anyway,

it was a great painting and Evits Haley was a good friend of mine and I

had a...had that painting and he wanted to buy it, the frontis piece to

“Trail Drivers of Texas.” He said, "If you'll find me a copy of that book, I'll

buy that painting from you." So I went to see Fred Rosenstock in

Denver. And he said, "Yeah, I've got that book,” he said, Let's go

upstairs." I got in the elevator with him and my life was at great peril.

And he started doing this thing and we went up to the second floor into

what looked like an auditorium, just nothing but stacks of boxes of

books, you've never saw so much dust in your entire life and we walked

down 20 rows and 15 rows of books this way. He said, "now, Forrest, I

haven't been in this loft in 20 years, but I think that book is in this box."

And he opened that box and there was that book laying right on top. I

couldn't believe it. But that says something about book dealers.

Interviewer: fascinating. Now, Fred and Jeff have both passed away.

How well did you know Jeff Dykes? There are legends in the book

business of course.

Fenn: Jeff Dykes and I were almost umbilical. And I say that because we

liked each other so much and I would go to Washington and spend the

night with him and I would sleep in the spare bedroom with Charlie

Russell paintings around me and also Fred Renner. You know, they were

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good friends. So we honcho’d around together in Washington and I can

always get an airplane in the Air Force and fly out there and see those

guys. Jeff Dykes, when he got something that he thought I would like, he

would call me on the phone and sell it to me at a price that I could

afford to pay. Although he could have gotten more money from that

book someplace else, but those guys kind of took care of me. You don't

forget friends like that.

Interviewer: Now, your history is so rich and there are so many areas to

cover. I want to be sure we at least identify some of those. We'll have to

do a second interview. But, you are a major collector in your own right

of many many different things. Explain to us what your collecting

interests are.

Fenn: My main collection is antique, American Indian things. Particularly

Plains Indians. I have enough paintings to decorate my house. And I like

paintings, but if I had never been in the art business, I would never have

owned an original painting I'm sure. I've often wondered if you really

just absolutely love art then, instead of paying $3500 for an oil painting

you like, painted by a friend of yours, why don't you buy a print for $150

of the greatest art ever painted? Goya, Titian, Velasquez....I never did...I

could relate those two...When I was in the art business I sold a lot of

paintings to people who didn't want a print. They wanted the original.

I...Later on I learned to understand that, but I never did quite believe

the philosophy of that

Interviewer: Now, within the Plains Indians genre specifically, what do

you collect specifically?

Fenn: Well, like weapons. I like all kinds of beadwork and quilt work. I

like things with histories and I like...I just finished writing a book on

dolls. It's about 13,500 words and I've illustrated 57 antique Indian dolls,

seven of them have human scalps on them. One of them has a beautiful

blonde human scalp on it. It was very very...In the context of today, we

don't understand those things. And it's not fair to judge people in an era

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that you don't know, that you didn't live through. But I can see little

Indian kids, 2 three and four years old playing with that beautiful little

doll with the human scalp sewed on the back of its head.

Interviewer: now the books that you have written basically deal with

the art that you develop, the artists that you develop and your

collecting of things. Give us the litany of what you published.

Fenn: Well my first book was a book on the African animals by William

R. Lee (sic) that are in the natural history Museum in New York. Now I

owned about 100 of his pen and ink illustrations so I wrote a book about

those illustrations and illustrated them. Then I wrote a little book about

John Erlichman that I told you about. Then my first big book was my

Sharp book. I worked probably four or five hours every day after running

my gallery on that book and I quit work. I closed my gallery at 5 o'clock,

take a break for 30 minutes and then I'd start working on my Sharp

book. Then, about 1 o'clock, I'd get tired and sleepy, so I go over and my

guest house and jump in the hot tub for about 20 minutes and then I get

out and I could work another three or four hours. And then I'm up at 7

o'clock again going down my gallery. I like things to be in place. My

gallery opened at 830 and I had 14 employees. I always woke up about

seven. And I would lay awake in bed for an hour. I wanted to lay in bed

every morning for an hour because the phone is not ringing, there is not

people to see me, my mind is fresh and all the good ideas that I ever

had came to me between seven and eight in the morning. At 8 o'clock,

I'd get up, shower, shave, go downstairs to breakfast and walk in my

gallery at 8:35. Everybody has their cup of coffee and they're at their

desk at 8:35. That's the way I wanted things to work. In my early days I

remember I was unreasonable because I would get carried away. I

would get mad at somebody because they would leave the off a felt tip

pen. I remember I had a secretary that wouldn't turn her Selectric

typewriter off when she went to lunch, people would file things in file

cabinets with paperclips on them which is a terrible thing to do because

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it always grabs another paper and you never can find it. But anyway, I

worked myself through all of those things and I was just beginning to

learn what life is all about when I sold my gallery.

Interviewer: and what other books have you published?

Fenn: I wrote a book about Fechin called the “The Genius of Nikolai

Fechin,” and I bought a big part of that estate. I wrote a big book about

San Lazaro Pueblo which is a pueblo that we own and I've excavated

about 40 rooms in that. Then I wrote about half of another book about

my Indian collection with another guy. He was the expert. Some of the

things I knew about, so I wrote that...But I published about probably 15

books. I've published books for Evits Haley. I published...I didn't write

that book but I hired George Sears and Bush Bradley to write that book

because I owned what they called the Fenn Cache, probably the best

Clovis cache in existence and they're American Indian projectiles and

pre-forms(?) that are 14,000 years old

Interviewer: and did you just publish one in connection with the Buffalo

Bill Historical Center, or at least one of our employees?

Fenn: What you thinking about?

Interview: The Pickering (sic) (unintelligible)

Fenn: Yeah, but I just wrote the foreword to that. Yeah, I own Sitting

Bull's pipe. And people laugh at me when I tell them my own Sitting

Bull's pipe. We proved...We didn't prove that he owned it but we

proved that he was holding it in a number of different photographs

because we compared grain in the wood photographically and the grain

in the stem of the pipe that he's holding, you put one on top of the

other and they matched exactly. So that's unequivocal that we know

that that's true.

Interviewer: Now, you are about 76 years old, aren't you? And you are

not in the gallery business anymore. What are the exciting things you

are going to do with the rest of your life? When you wake up at 7

o'clock in the morning, when you lay there for an hour-

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Fenn: young man, something my father told me years ago, he said, "if

you want a good laugh, tell God about your plans." So I don't know. I

mean there's so many good things out there do. I made...When I

started...When I was in high school and I started making rules for

myself, every time somebody’d hit me in the nose I make a rule. Don't

make the alligator mad till you cross the river. That was one of my rules.

It's better to do it and be sorry you did it than to not do it and be sorry

you didn't do it. When I sold my business…I had 109 of those rules and

there were things that I live by. I don't know...One of my rules was, I

didn't write this one down…but an unwritten rule was that I don't want

to do anything for more than 15 years. There are number of great things

to do and is not very many 15s...And just because you love what you're

doing is not a good enough reason to keep doing it.

Interviewer: Now one of the things you are working on is a revision of

your Sharp project, isn't it? So, that's within the 15 year rule

Fenn: When that book is selling...two books sold recently for $2000

apiece and Amazon sells it routinely for $750 so I figure it's time to

reprint. But I'm going to revise it and putting in 66 different color plates

and I think 22 black-and-whites. I'm going to change the dust jacket –

keep the title – change the dust jacket. And I'm going to make an

number of limited editions

Interviewer: Now, here at the Buffalo Bills Historical Center, what

activities are you active in?

Fenn: Well I'm on the advisory board of the McCracken Research

Library...I'm on the board for...(unknown) runs that..

Interviewer: (Unintelligible) and you come up and visit regularly?

Fenn: I come up here about four times a year

Interviewer: do you still go back to Yellowstone?

Fenn: I always go Yellowstone. In the summer.

Interviewer: Are you as excited when you come to Cody now as you

were…

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Fenn: Oh yeah. I always look forward to it. I drove 891 miles yesterday

to get here

Interviewer: That's wonderful. Now there are a lot of areas that I want

to go into in depth...now is a good time to stop. Let's start again on

another occasion. Thank you very much.

Fenn: Thank you.

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Documents

agypsyskiss.com · Web viewWally Johnson Interview of. Forrest Fenn. October 17, 2006. Buffalo Bill Historical Center. Courtesy of: A Gypsy’s Kiss. Agypsyskiss.tv. Agypsyskiss.com