Breaking the Lies by David Wilder

8/13/2019 Breaking the Lies by David Wilder

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REVEALING THE FACTS:

HEBRONQuestions and answers about

BREAKING THE LIES

David Wilder \\ The Jewish Community of Hebron


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Printed with generous assistance from:

Oevre Ullern terrasse 51, 0380 Oslo, Norway

Tel: (+47) 2194 0000

and Mr. and Mrs. Jack Berger, Chicago

Photos on cover, from left to right:

Women from Machsom Watch,

Hebron Arab greeting me on King

David Street, Arafat with TIPH

observers in Hebron, Yehuda Shaul

of Breaking the Silence


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IntroductionFor the better part of the last twenty years, I've invested most of my life in Hebron. Many people ask

me what my job is. The level of the answer is dependent on who I'm speaking to. My official title is

'spokesperson' of the Hebron Jewish community. I work primarily with the foreign, English-speaking

press. The work includes writing, photography, internet, tours, lectures, etc. However, in more

general terms, my work is as a teacher, and educator. These are tools with which I can express the

Jewish people's attachment to their land, Eretz Yisrael, the Land of Israel, and more specifically, to

Hebron, the first Jewish city in Israel.

My job entails much 'swallowing.' I must swallow and suffer interminable 'agendas,' out-of-context

sound bites, and out-and-out lies, about Israel, Hebron's Jewish community, and the righteous

people who comprise this community; and of course, about me. Recently a pleasant Jewish woman

compared me to a 'Klu Klux Klansman.'

Such personal attacks mean nothing. But the lies that are spouted about our holy city and our most

honorable citizens, are unforgiveable, and must be answered. Such attacks, stemming from foreign

press and governments, are, to a great degree, understandable. The source of their contempt is rabid

anti-Semitism. The aim of their disdain, ultimately, is the destruction of the State of Israel.

However, for the past few years, we have witnessed, not only foreign animosity, but also Jewish

/Israeli enmity. Left-wing organizations, including political parties and non-profit organizations,

many funded by foreign powers, have initiated pro-active, anti-Israel, anti-Hebron activities, based

upon half-truths, lies and a totally incomprehensible Jewish self hate.

This document is a first, short response to the numerous accusations hurled at us, as well as

concise explanations, which, for the most part, represent the Jewish Community of Hebron. Of

course, it is impossible to expect that each and every person in the community will agree with each

and every word printed here. But, I believe, on the whole, it is representative of the Jewish Commu-

nity of Hebron.

The document is divided into two parts: the first part deals with frequently asked questions about

Hebron and the Jewish community. The second part is a transcription of an in-depth interview

conducted with me by Khaled Diab, an Egyptian-Belgian journalist. It covers much material and lays

the groundwork for a basic comprehension of Hebron's Jewish community.

You may not agree with all that is stated, but at the very least, it is straightforward; as we say it, as

we believe it and as we live it.

Breaking the Lies Revealing the facts about Hebron David Wilder


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1. Hebrons Arab population is about 200,000 people.

2. The city area is about 20 square kilometers. The H-1 area (under rule of the PA) is 18 s km.

while H-2, (under Israeli rule,) is 2 s km.

3. The city has recently spent over $150 million in investments and development.

4.The city has an indoor basketball hall with 4,000 seats.

5.The Korean Government funded a $6,000,000 Youth Studies Center in the Arab controlled

section of the city, which includes a computer science and music department.

6. PA controlled Hebron has four hospitals.

7. PA controlled Hebron has three universities - University of Hebron, Polytechnic, and Al QudsOpen University totaling over 10,000 students.

8.PA controlled Hebron is a major source of goods and products to the State of Israel. For

example - Aminach mattresses are manufactured there, and other labels are pasted on them.

9. PA controlled Hebron is the main industrial center in the West Bank. More than 40% of the

PA economy is produced there.

10. PA controlled Hebron has 17,000 factories and workshops in all areas of production - stone,

clothing, house ware, footwear, uniforms (including various official Israeli services.)

11. PA controlled Hebron is a center for manufacturing shoes including Gali slippers and other brands.

12. Most pottery vases found in Israeli nurseries are produced in PA controlled Hebron.

Important facts about Arab Hebron


Downtown Hebron Glass factory in Hebron


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13.The most advanced printing press in the Middle East is at the Herbawi printing plant in PA

controlled Hebron. They produce all kinds of printed products - including notebooks, etc. which

are sold in Israel under various brand names.

14. PA controlled Hebron has a nylon and plastic factories, producing plumbing and sanitation

tools.

15. PA controlled Hebron has an advanced glass industry including mirrors, tempering and cutting

tools. The Royal Plastic Factory has over 1000 employees. Zamzam produces all types of plastic

bags. Crystal glass is produced by the Natsheh family business. All are located in Hebron

16. Every day 700 merchants enter Israel from PA controlled Hebron.17. 600 trucks pass through the Tarqumiya check point on the western outskirts of Hebron.

18. 100 quarry trucks pass through the Metar checkpoint in the southern Hebron Hills.

19. PA controlled Hebron has a huge trade with China.

20. PA controlled Hebron is the source of 60% of stone and marble resources in the Judea and

Samaria the West Bank.

21. 33% of the PAs GNP is from PA controlled Hebron, including: 60% of the jewelry industry

and jewelry production; 28% of the output in the agricultural sector and 75% of the leather

and shoe industry.

22. Most agricultural products from PA controlled Hebron are sent to Israel. Trade volumebetween Israel and the PA reaches 30 billion dollars annually.

23.The minimum wage is 50 NIS per day, whereas it is - 30 NIS per day throughout other

heavily populated Arab cities in Judea and Samaria, the "West Bank."

24.Over 2,500 men serve in five Arab security organizations in PA controlled Hebron.

25. Hebron is a very religious Muslim city: There arent any movie theaters or pubs. Women are

forbidden to smoke on the street. During Ramadan, security organizations prevent eating or

smoking in public.

Important facts about Arab Hebron


Palestinian police in Hebron


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How long have Jews lived in Hebron?

According to archeologists and historians, Jews have lived in Hebron almost continuously since the

time of Abraham, about 3,800 years ago. The Davidic monarchy began in Hebron about 3,000 years

ago. At excavations in the Tel Rumeida-Admot Yishai neighborhood, stone seals were discovered,

with the word Hebron written on them, in ancient Hebrew. These seals are about 2,700 years old, from

the era of King Hezekiah.

What happened in 1929?

In August of 1929 Arab rioted throughout Israel. In Hebron, 67 Jews were murdered and over 70

wounded. The survivors were expelled by the ruling British.Did Jews try to come back?

Yes, in 1931 a small group returned to Hebron, but they too were expelled in April, 1936, for security

reasons. That was the end of a Jewish community in Hebron until Jews returned in 1967.

What happened in 1967?

During the Six-Day war the Israeli army returned to Hebron, liberating the city from the Arabs.

When did Jews come back to live in Hebron?

In 1968 a group of Jews spent Passover in a Hebron hotel. They then lived in the Hebron military

headquarters until the fall of 1971, when they moved to the first apartments in Kiryat Arba, five

minutes outside of Hebron. In 1979 a group of women and children moved into Beit Hadassah inHebron itself.

Isnt Hebron an illegal settlement?

In 1980, following 2 terrorist attacks when seven men were killed, the Israeli government gave official

approval for the renewal of a Jewish community in Hebron. The original legal decision, approved by

the government in 1980, was written by attorney general Aharon Barak, (later President of the

Supreme Court), who wrote that Jews should be able to live in Hebron just as Jews are able to live in

Tel Aviv.

History


The King Seal, found at Tel Hebron excavations


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What holy sites are in Hebron?

There are a number of holy sites in Hebron:

1. Maarat HaMachpela The tomb of the Patriarchs and Matriarchs

2. The Tomb of Yishai and Rut the tomb of Jesse and Ruth

3. The Tomb of Avner ben Ner

4. The cave of Otniel ben Knaz

5. The Avraham Avinu synagogue

Are these sites accessible to Jews?

The Tomb of Avner ben Ner is accessible only on Thursday nights for a few hours, and fully, 10 days ayear. The cave of Otniel ben Knaz is located on the PA controlled side of Hebron and is inaccessible,

excepting a few times during the year. The other sites are accessible.

Can Jews pray at Maarat HaMachpela?

Yes, except for 10 days a year, during Moslem holidays, Jews can pray at Maarat HaMachpela.

Is the entire structure open to Jews?

No, the building is divided into two areas, one for Jewish worship and the other for Moslem worship.

How is the building divided?

Jews are permitted into the Abraham and Jacob Halls, where memorials to Abraham and Sarah, and

Jacob and Leah are located, as well as the inner courtyard. Moslems are permitted into the largest andmost important room, the Isaac Hall, where a memorial for Yitzhak and Rivka is located.

Is the Moslem side ever open to Jews?

Yes, 10 days a year. On: Rosh HaShana (1 day), Yom Kippur, two days during the aseret yomi

tshuva between Rosh HaShana and Yom Kippur, Erev Rosh Chodesh Elul, two days during Chol

HaMoed Succot and two days during Chol HaMoed Pesach, and Shabbat, parshat Chaya Sarah.

Is Maarat HaMachpela really the authentic site we read about in the Bible?

Yes, you can read how people journeyed into the actual caves below the existing structure in 1980, at

the Hebron web site: www.hebron.com, in the section about Maarat HaMachpela.

Can Cohanim enter Maarat HaMachpela?Yes. According to the Rishon lTzion, Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu, ztl definitively yes. Rabbi Dov

Lior, the Rabbi of Hebron and Kiryat Arba, also ruled that Cohanim may enter the building atop the

caves of Machpela

Holy sites in Hebron


Tomb of Otniel ben KnazTomb of Jesse and Ruth


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What is the present political status of Hebron?

In January 1997, as part of the Hebron Accords between Israel and the Arabs, Hebron was divided

into two parts: H1 80% of the city, was transferred to the Palestinian Authority. H2 20% of the

city, was left under Israeli security control, including the Jewish neighborhoods. Presently, Israeli

forces patrol throughout the entire city.

Isnt Israel occupying a palestinian city?

Israel is not 'occupying a 'Palestinian' city.' In 1967 Israel returned home to Hebron. This is where

Jews had lived for hundreds and thousands of years, prior to the 1929 riots, massacre and expulsion.

It must be noted that Yassar Arafat and the PLO (PA), as well as the United States, accepted the

legitimacy of a Jewish presence in Hebron when they signed and agreed to implementation of the

1997 'Hebron Accords'.

Is it true that Arabs cannot use Shuhada Street and many of its stores were closed.

First, it should be known that Shuhada means martyrs in other words, according to the Arabs, the

street of the marytrs terrorists who killed Jews.

In the early 2000s the Israeli courts required that King David Street (Shuhada) be reopened to Arab

traffic. As a result, public transportation (Arab taxis) and municipal vehicles were permitted to travel

on the road. Pedestrian traffic was also allowed.

During this time, Israeli women were constantly accosted, both physically and verbally, primarily by

Arab teenagers and young adults. Arab taxis crowded the road, causing constant traffic issues.

In spite of this, the road remained open to both Jews and Arabs.

Following the beginning of the second intifada in October, 2000, Arab terrorist forces began constantly

shooting at the Jewish neighborhoods in Hebron from the hills surrounding the Jewish community,which were transferred to PA control as part of the Hebron Accords. In 1998 Rabbi Shlomo Raanan

was murdered in his Tel Rumeida home. Shalhevet Pass, 10 months old, was murdered by a sniper in

2001, and others were wounded. A couple from Kiryat Arba, the Levis, were murdered by a homicide

bomber who blew himself up next to them. Other people were stabbed.

Politics and Current Events


Shalhevet Pas and RabbiShlomo Raanan, HYD

both murdered in Hebron


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Israeli security forces concluded that the road must be closed to Arab traffic as a necessary security

measure. Presently, as a result of continued evaluation of the situation, they continue to maintain this

opinion.

This decision was reviewed and upheld by the Israeli Supreme Court twice.

The 2nd intifada was a declared war by the PA against Israel, Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria

and Gaza, and specifically against Hebron's Jewish community. Had this war not begun, the street

would probably still be open. However, there is a price for waging war. When the shooting began, with

the intention of killing and maiming Jews, it was an attempt to once again force us from our homes.

The State of Israel decided not to 'turn the other cheek.' Some of the necessary security measures are

still in force today.

Finally, since the advent of Oslo, Jews must travel kilometers out of their way in order to reach

various destinations in Judea and Samaria, because many areas are now 'closed to Jews' and 'open

to Arabs only.'

How do you deal with accusations of Apartheid in Hebron?

There is apartheid in Hebron. However it is directed at Jews and Israelis, not at Arabs. Jews have

access to approximately 3% of the city, while Arabs have access to approximately 97% of the city. The

entire Arab-controlled PA H-1 zone is off-limits to Jews. According to civil administration statistics,

over 30,000 Arabs live in the Israeli controlled H-2 area. Arabs have access to both sides of the city,

while Jews do not. Only one kilometer is off-limits to Arabs, and this, for security reasons. There are

places, even within the Israeli controlled area, which are off-limits to Jews and accessible to Arabs,

such as the Casba. This area contains much Jewish-owned property, no longer accessible to Jews.

Additionally, Arabs continue to build and renovate on both sides of the city. However Jews are highly

restricted. They cannot build without permits from the Defense and Prime Minister. Furthermore, PA

law forbids property sales to Jews It is considered a capital crime, and is punishable by death.



nd

H-1-Arab-controlled sideof Hebron


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Do Hebron Jews glorify Baruch Goldstein?

Baruch Goldstein was a doctor who lived in nearby Kiryat Arba. He treated both Jews and Arabs. He

was also a first responder to many of the terror attacks where Jews were injured or killed.

Of course it is impossible to read peoples minds and know exactly what each and every individual

thinks, so its impossible to explain why he did what he did.

However, unmistakably, the Hebron community rejects the acts committed by Goldstein as a solution

to the issues we face. The fact is that people in Hebron, and throughout Judea and Samaria, do not

randomly, indiscriminately shoot people.

Many Hebron residents are legally armed. They are licensed by the IDF or the Ministry of the Interior.Anyone who wants to utilize his weapon could, theoretically, do so. The fact is that people dont.

Despite massive terror, bloodshed and killing of Jews, people did not take the law into their hands and

arbitrarily shoot people. You can count on one and a half hands the number of Jews who have been

tried and convicted of such acts. On the other hand, thousands of Arabs have participated in acts of

terror against Jews.

What about the monument at his grave?

There isnt any, and there never was a monument at his grave. His family requested that he be buried

in the ancient Jewish cemetery in Hebron. The IDF refused this request. They wanted to bury him in

Jerusalem. Finally a compromise was reached, and he was buried in an isolated place in Kiryat Arba,near the western gate, leading to Hebron.

It is customary to recite Psalms at a grave site, and following a visit to a cemetery, Jews are required

to wash their hands. Therefore a sink and small bookshelf were placed at the site. These were ordered

destroyed by the state of Israel. Today, the site is marked by a gravestone, as is normal and customary

at any such place.



Isnt a Jewish civilian presence in Hebron illegal according to international law?

No. Two official documents, published by the state of Israel, prove beyond all doubt the legality of the

Jewish presence in Judea and Samaria:

International humanitarian law prohibits the forcible transfer of segments of the population of a state

to the territory of another state which it has occupied as a result of the resort to armed force. This princi-

ple, which is reflected in Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, was drafted immediately follow-

ing the Second World War. As International Red Cross' authoritative commentary to the Convention

confirms, the principle was intended to protect the local population from displacement, including

endangering its separate existence as a race, as occurred with respect to the forced population trans-

fers in Czechoslovakia, Poland and Hungary before and during the war. This is clearly not the case

with regard to the West Bank and Gaza. The attempt to present Israeli settlements as a violation of

this principle is clearly untenable.

[http://www.mfgov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/Israeli+Settlements+and+Intern

ational+Law.htm]


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According to the Levy commission report: Our basic conclusionis that from the point of view of

international law, the classical laws of "occupation" as set out in the relevant international conven-

tions cannot be considered applicable to the unique and sui generis historic and legal circumstances

of Israel's presence in Judea and Samaria spanning over decades.

In addition, the provisions of the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, regarding transfer of populations,

cannot be considered to be applicable and were never intended to apply to the type of settlement activ-

ity carried out by Israel in Judea and Samaria. Therefore, according to International law, Israelis have

the legal right to settle in Judea and Samaria and the establishment of settlements cannot, in and of

itself, be considered to be illegal.

What about the Tomb of the Patriarchs and Matriarchs, Maarat HaMachpela? Do Moslems have equal

access?

For 700 years, from 1267 until 1967, anyone not of the Islamic faith was forbidden from entering this

holy site. Jews were only permitted worship outside, but no higher than the '7th step,' at the eastern

side of the building. Today, Maarat HaMachpela is open to anyone and everyone, of all faiths and

nationalities. Presently, about 75% of the building is accessible to anyone not Jewish and 25%

accessible to anyone not Moslem. Ten days a year the entire structure is open only to Moslems and

ten days a year, only to Jews.

What would happen if it were under Arab rule?

Karl Vick, writing for Time magazine, quotes the mayor of Hebron, Its a mosque! says Khaled

Osaily, the mayor of Hebron. You dont have to be an architect to see it! Will you allow me to pray in

a synagogue or a church?

Kamal Dweck, formerly deputy mayor of Hebron, declared that Ma'arat HaMachpela, the tomb of the

Patriarchs and Matriarchs, should it ever again fall under Moslem control, would be accessible only to

those of the Islamic faith.

I asked Mustafa Barghuti, former minister of information for the PA, who may worship at this holy

site. He refused to answer the question. (See: http://goo.gl/mld0)

th


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Maarat HaMachpela (L) Arab at Isaac Hall (R) Jews praying outside at 7th step.

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Note that the structure above the authentic caves was built by Herod, Jewish King of Judea, 2,000

years ago, which is 600 years prior to the birth of Muhammad.

Finally, Jews, Christians, and Muslims must undergo identical security examinations prior to entrance

to the site.

Could Jews live in Hebron under Palestinian rule?

Wafa, the official Palestinian news agency published on July 28, 2012 its version of Abbas briefing to

the Egyptian media, quoting him as saying: I'm willing to agree to a third party that would supervise

the agreement, such as NATO forces, but I would not agree to having Jews among the NATO forces,

or that there will live among us, even a single Israeli on Palestinian land. This version was reprinted

by Palestinian newspapers al-Quds and al-Hayat al-Jadida on July 30 and by other Arab newspapers.


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Why are there so many security forces in Hebron, for so few people?

Israeli security forces provide multiple services.

a) They offer protection to Hebron's residents against constant terror threats.

b) They offer protection to almost a million people who visit Hebron annually.

c) They offer protection to people throughout Israel. When Israel withdrew from the H1 PAcontrolled

area of Hebron, Hebron terrorists planned attacks throughout Israel, killing, maiming and

injuring scores of people. See Newsweek: The Jihad Soccer Club: They Were The Best Soccer Club In

Hebron- http://goo.gl/tvsB.

Many Human Rights organizations accuse Hebron of racism and violence against Arabs.

BTselem, The Hebron Rehabilitation Committee, Breaking the Silence, Children of Abraham, The

Tel Rumeida Popular Committee, Yesh Din, Association for Civil Rights in Israel, The Ecumenical

Accompaniment Program in Palestine and Israel, are all pro-active pro-Arab organizations, without

any attempt at objectivity, impartiality or neutrality. See: http://goo.gl/GGyt

Whats your opinion of Breaking the Silence?

Breaking the Silence is an organization working against the State of Israel, which is funded by

numerous foreign states and organizations. According to their web site Breaking the Silence

receives financial support from the European Union, Spain, Norway, as well as the Ford Israel Founda-

tion, the New Israel Fund, to name just a few. They have taken their anti-Israel, anti-Hebron propa-

ganda to Berlin, Germany, of all places, to spout hate against Jews. Additionally, they participated in

initiating and later testifying against Israel, resulting in the infamous Goldstone Report, accusing

Israel of war crimes during the Gaza Cast Lead operation. Their tours of Hebron are full of lies and

distortions in an attempt to convince diplomats and tourists alike, that the Israel Defense Forces and

the Jewish Community of Hebron are evil.

There are reports of Jews attempting to conquer Arab property in Hebron, such as the Casba?

There is much Jewish property located throughout Hebron. Most of these locations are totally

inaccessible to Jews. One example of this is in the Casba, where Jews lived for hundreds of years.Presently Jews are allowed one weekly tour through the Casba, which remains under Israeli security

control. Many of the participants are tourists, who have never visited this are It is full of historical

sites, such as the Menorah Arch, and the remnants of the Kabbalists Quarter, now an animal shed.

Arabs harvesting olives on Jewish property in Hebron. Left-wing Arab graffiti in Casba, at Menorah Arch


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What about the Arab market? Why is it closed and abandoned?

The Arab market, known as the Shuk, was built on Jewish property purchased by Rabbi Chaim

Bajayo in 1817. That area, as well as the adjacent Avraham Avinu neighborhood were destroyed by

Arabs in the late 1950s, following the Jordanian conquest and occupation of Hebron in 1948. The Arab

market was built in the early 1960s.

The market was closed a little at a time, by the IDF, over a period of years as due to continued terror

threats. A booby-trapped teddy bear, for example, was discovered by soldiers just prior to its

detonation in the hands of Hebrons Jewish children.

Additionally, the state of Israel and the Israeli Supreme Court have acknowledged the Jewish

ownership of the land on which the Arab market was located. Presently, there are legal/political

discussions concerning return of this property to the Jewish Community of Hebron. For more

information about this place, see:http://tinyurl.com/hebronproperty

Is it dangerous to visit Hebron?

Its no more dangerous to visit Hebron than it is to visit anywhere else in Israel. Tens and hundreds of

thousands of people visit Hebron annually, including men, women and children from around the

world. Security in Hebron is very good. We conduct thousands of tours that originate and end in

Jerusalem.

Why are Hebron residents branded as extremists?

As a rule, Israeli and international media is very leftist, pro-Arab, anti-Israel, and certainly anti-right.

Therefore, they use media tools at their disposal to delegitimize us, calling us extremists,

fanatics, etc.

But are you really extremists?

What is the definition of an extremist? I associate extremists with the Red Brigade, Badar-Meinhoff,

the IRA, Hamas, Hizballah, and other such terror organizations. We have absolutely nothing incommon with them. We are living an ideal, settling our land, and in our case, living in the first Jewish

city in Israel. It was the home of Abraham and King David. This is not extremism. I call it idealism.

How can you live with children in Hebron?

Our goal in Hebron is to live normal lives. How can we justify living normal lives here if only adults

live in Hebron? A normal life includes families: men, women and children.


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But isnt it dangerous for children in Hebron?

Unfortunately, wherever you go today in Israel, there are terrorists whose sole desire is to kill Jews.

This applies to Jerusalem, Tel-Aviv or Haifa. The same is true throughout Judea, Samaria and Gaza.

There is danger everywhere. Families living in Hebron, or other similar communities throughout Yesha,

understand that if we do not live and populate these areas, they will be overrun by our enemy, whose

goal is to conquer the entire State of Israel. We believe that this is our land, and we must be willing to

live our beliefs, not just speak about them. That is why we live here. Our children are very active partici-

pants of everything done in Hebron, and they wouldnt have it any other way. Children here dont just

speak about ideals, they live them. I believe the children who grow up in Hebron and throughout Judea

and Samaria are Israels future leaders. They have faith, nerves of platinum and live their ideals.

Many kids who grew up in Hebron continue to live in the city, or in other places in Judea and Samaria,

continuing the same lifestyle they experienced as children.

What is the relationship between Hebron residents and soldiers in Hebron?

The relationship between Hebron residents and soldiers is very good. We try very hard to make them

as comfortable as possible, providing them with food and beverage. When possible, the soldiers are

given historic tours of Hebron; meetings between the Hebron leadership and military officers are

frequent. The soldiers serving here work very hard, are very courageous, and are deserving of praise.

Is it true that you receive money from the Israeli government to live in Hebron and that you dont have

to work?

No. Everyone in Hebron works for a living. The Israeli government doesnt give out handouts to

anyone, and certainly not to us in Hebron. This is a common lie told by the left and the Arabs. There is

no truth to this whatsoever.

Hebron children giving apples and honey to Israeli

soldiers in Hebron on the eve of Rosh HaShana, the Jewish New Year


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Do you have contact with any Arabs?

We have had numerous discussions with Sheich Farid Jabari, one of the most powerful Arabs in the

Hebron region. His clan numbers into the tens of thousands. We meet with him on a regular basis,

have taken groups to see him and also met with him together with representatives of the EU. He

professes opposition to a Palestinian State and prefers to be a citizen of Israel.

What will you do if an Israeli government tries to expel you from Hebron?

This is a hypothetical scenario which will almost definitely never happen. There is tremendous

support, throughout Israel and throughout the world for a continued Jewish community in Hebron. Itis understood that Hebron is literally the roots of the Jewish people, home of the second holiest site to

the Jewish people in all the world, Maarat HaMachpela This site was off-limits to Jews for 700 years

and accessible only after our return in 1967. It is understood that Jewish abandonment of the city is

synonymous with abandonment of this site. It is tantamount to cutting off our roots. Jews will never

abandon Hebron.

Tens of thousands visit Hebron during Passover and Succot holidays. Sheich Jabari with Hebron Fund president Teddy Pollack


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Welcome to Israel

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Whats your solution to the present conflict?

There arent any magic answers or simple solutions. The situation here is very complex. No one is

willing to make real compromises because the issues are primarily religious and no one is willing to

compromise on religion. However, I believe the beginning of a solution is recognition by Jews, primar-

ily in Israel, but also elsewhere, that Eretz Yisrael really belongs to the Jewish people. If Jews reject

this concept, how can we expect our enemies to accept it?

The second part of a solution is mass Aliyah to Israel. Today there are six million Jews in Israel. When

there are 12 million Jews here, the Arabs will take us more seriously. Presently most Jews do not live

in Israel. If this land is so important to us, why arent they here? When the Soviet Union opened its

gates, allowing Jewish emigration to Israel, Arafat begged them to prevent Jews from coming to Israel.

This is one of their greatest fears. People will come to Israel, if not because of love of Israel, than

because of Obama the First, or the Second or the Third. Jews from Europe will come home to Israel as

massive, extremist Islamic populations fill France, Spain, England, and elsewhere. When Judea and

Samaria are populated by millions of Jews, peace talks will change, out of necessity. What will the

White House suggest doing with a million displaced people?


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How do you remain optimistic?

Many years ago journalists interviewed me on Hebron Day, the anniversary of the liberation of

Hebron in 1967. They asked me about numerous issues, and finally, concluded by commenting that I

shouldnt be celebrating that day, as a result of so many unresolved problems. I responded, Where

were we 70 years ago, or 80 years ago? We werent here. Today, its true, we have problems, but weve

had problems for thousands of years. If we overcame 2,000 years of exile from our land, and a

holocaust which annihilated millions of Jews, we can surely overcome the problems we have today.

The way I approach the situation is Im here, Im in Hebron. As long as Im here, Ive certainly

got what to celebrate.

How can I keep up-to-date on Hebron affairs?

You can subscribe to the Hebron email list. Write to [email protected] and put subscribe in the

subject. You will receive news and articles from Hebron. You can also frequently visit the Hebron web

site, which contains much material, including video, photographs, and articles about current events,

etc. at www.hebron.com

Is there regular transportation to Hebron?

Yes, Egged buses travel to and from Hebron and Kiryat Arba almost every hour of the day. See:http://tinyurl.com/hebronbuses

How can I tour Hebron?

Write to Sarah at [email protected] or call: 052-4317055 to make reservations for a tour of Hebron.

Tours can also be reserved at: www.hebrontours.com

How can I host a Hebron speaker at my home or synagogue?

Be in touch with me at [email protected]

David Wilderwww.davidwilder.org


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In October, 2011 I received an email from one Khaled Diab, an Egyptian-Belgian journalist, who asked

to visit Hebron. After several telephone conversations and a few postponements, we finally met, on

Wednesday, December 14, 2011. We sat and spoke at length; not so much as discussion, rather as an

interview. Later, we took a tour of the community, including Tel Rumeida, the excavations there, and

the museum at Beit Hadassah. Mr. Diab is an interesting gentleman, as can be discerned from his

blog/website, called The Chroniker @ http://chronikler.com/

The articles aren't standard Arab propaganda Not necessarily what I would write, but different.

I discovered that he transcribed the entire conversation we had, adding a short introduction of his own.

From what I've read, and what I remember, the transcription is accurate, perhaps with a small error

here or there. Mr. Diab also inserted links to various points I made during the interview, taking the

reader to a source of my comments.

I'm posting this because I believe it represents a fairly clear picture of my views, concerning Hebron,

Israel and the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Diab's report was broken down into six segments. I've run them together, with each of his segments

beginning with his title, subtitle and comment. Needless to say, they aren't how I might have preceded

each section. However, he asked the questions. I provided the answers.

I've left most of the interview as it was conducted; there are a few changes and additions but almost

all of the original document is presented here (minus Diab's introduction and photos). I think it is a fairly

accurate representation of ideas I've conveyed to hundreds and thousands of people over the years,

be they journalists, tourists, and others.

Hebron settlers: The art of peace

The settlers in Hebron are widely regarded as the enemies of peace. That's why I, as an Egyptian,

decided it was essential to get to know them.

Tuesday 4 January 2012

Hebron settlers: From secular America to religious Hebron

What motivates an American Jew from a secular background to move to Israel and become a religious

settler in Hebron?


Khaled Diab: Can you introduce yourself?

David Wilder: My name is David Wilder. I work as a spokesperson for the Jewish community here in

Hebron. I grew up in the States. Ive been in Israel for over 35 years. Ive been in this part of Israel forover 30 years. I lived for a number of years in Kiryat Arba . I moved down here 13 years ago. Ive been

working here for 17-plus years.


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What motivated you to move from the States, first, and then to move here?

When I was in university, I had the opportunity to participate in a one-year program. I had an idea

about going to Israel from almost as a child. But I never came over here. I didnt grow up in a religious

background.

So your parents were secular?

They were what we call in the States Reform Jews what would be called here secular Judaism. But

the idea to come to Israel had been floating around. The idea of being able to come for a year in univer-

sity, get credit for it, be far away from home, have a good time, learn something, and be in Israel at the

same time, you know, it was appealing. I came over in 1974, so were talking a year after the Yom

Kippur war.

Israel was, you know, something in the news, it wasnt something, you know, hidden away.

So that awoke your Jewish identity or something?

I dont think that that did, but it wasnt it was tangible, it was something. It wasnt some concept. It was

real. And the idea of coming over was, you know, appealing. And I was accepted to a program, so I

came over to Jerusalem. I was at Hebrew University, primarily with Americans, thats the kind of

program it was. I didnt know any Hebrew.And over that period of a year, I dont know, something shifted. Because my expectation was to come

for a year, go back, finish, graduate and go to law school. You know, I sort of had it all set out. But

something clicked and pushed me in a different direction. To tell you exactly what that was is very

difficult. But thats what happened. I went back and graduated, went back and finished my last year.

When I graduated, I came back, and stayed. I became involved in different things. Very slowly, over a

period of time, I became more religious, having become introduced to religious Judaism, which I didnt

know anything about before. I was introduced to a woman, an Israeli, we got married.

Was that an arranged marriage or was it a love marriage?

Both. Arranged marriages have a connotation of you meet one day and you get married. We didnt do

that. But many times, youre introduced. The fact that youre introduced to someone doesnt mean you

have to marry them. You can be introduced to 50 people before you find someone you want to marry.

But I was introduced to somebody and we somehow hit it off. I still dont understand why she liked me

but that was 34 years ago and we got married, and the rest is history, as they say.


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And youre still together?

Oh, yeah.

And shes a naturalized Israeli like you?

She was born here. Her father was born in Turkey and moved to Cuba and came to Israel in the 1930s.

Her mother was born in Jerusalem and her family was originally from Greece. Shes Sephardi and Im

Ashkenazi. So were a mixed marriage, you could say.

And she also shares your religious convictions?

Yeah. We have seven children. Four of them are married and another one is getting married soon. Two

are still at home. And a lot of grandchildren.

How many exactly? Do you know?

At the moment, we have 20 grandchildren. I have one daughter who goes in twos; she has two sets of

twins. That pushes the numbers up.

So youve created your own veritable mini-tribe.

Its a hamoula [clan]. Yeah, you could say that. But look, were a small family in Hebron. There are

families with 11 kids. I think theres a family here with 13 13, I think, is the largest in Hebron.

What motivated you to move to Hebron rather than stay in Jerusalem?

We were looking to contribute where we felt we could contribute. You know, do something, the idea

that, if you believe in something, dont just talk about it, do it. So we were looking for a place to live on

something of a permanent basis and, actually, we sort of fell into Kiryat Arba. We knew somebody who

lived there and they told me about an apartment. We didnt have any money, and it was very cheap.

We wanted to try to do something. You know, we were both young. I was studying. I was learningTorah at that time, and I continued for a number of years. And we moved there and weve been here

ever since.

And do all your kids and grandkids also live around here or have they moved away?

My grandchildren live with their parents.

Yeah, I know

Im old. Im not that old.


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No, no, I understand.

My kids are like this: one of my daughters lives here in Hebron. My eldest daughter lived here for 10

years after she got married. Her husband is a rabbi. He teaches in a yeshiva. They wanted to live where

he teaches, so they moved down about 20, 25 minutes from here, in the southern Hebron hills, still in

whats called Judea, about 20 minutes outside of Beer Sheva. I have son that lives 10 minutes outside

of Hebron, in Beit Hagai. And another daughter who lives in Samaria.

Tell me a little bit about your community here. How big is it?

We have here, today, in Hebron Ok, lets define terms. There are different ways of defining Hebron.

And thats also in terms of numbers and things like that. You know numbers, anyone can do anything

they want with numbers. Im sure youre aware of that. So to try to keep things as straight as possible.

In Hebron itself , today, there are four Jewish neighborhoods; there are about 90 families; there are

about 300 children; there are about 350 guys in the yeshiva 850 Jews in Hebron. In Kiryat Arba, there

are about 7,500 people. Now if you drive around Kiryat Arba, on the perimeter of Kiryat Arba, theres a

fence, on the eastern side. One side of the fence is Kiryat Arba, the other side of the fence is Hebron.

So there is a question which Ive asked numerous people and never gotten a good answer: if you count

that side of the fence as Hebron, then count this side of the fence as Hebron. Ok, you can say thatKiryat Arba is a neighborhood of Hebron, but it is a separate municipal entity, ok?

The two communities are very interdependent. I mean, we dont have room here for anything. We dont

have here a post office or a supermarket or schools, because we dont have any space to put them, or

the room we might have, we cant use. So all that is in Kiryat Arba. Hebron is the basis, you know, its

where it started.

If youre talking about the greater Hebron region, we have close to 10,000 Jews. If youre talking about

Hebron proper, where we are today, then youre talking about 850 people, plus-minus.


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You were talking about how youre very interdependent with Kiryat Arba, but are there differences in

the make-up and attitudes between the people in Kiryat Arab and the people here in Hebron?

Look, Hebron, Kiryat Arba, separately or together, they are not a kibbutz, ok? I think that the basic

general attitudes; theres a very strong common denominator, for the most part. But this isnt necessar-

ily ideological. You have, I dont know, its very difficult for me to try to guess percentages or statistics.

You may have people who live in Kiryat Arba because its cheaper than living in Jerusalem. If someone

wants to buy an apartment and an apartment in Jerusalem costs a million shekels and here it costs

100,000 shekels, then your mortgage is a lot lower here than it is there.

But I think, for the most part, there is a strong ideological common denominator. But just like anything

and everything else, there are differing, you know, different issues, there are different opinions. And

your opinions can scale that way, that way, in any given direction. You know, it depends on what

youre talking about. There are things that people agree about. There are things that people disagree

about.

And between Hebron and Kiryat Arba, theyre not, you know Both communities have a stigma, a

stereotype, or a brand, or whatever word you want to use to describe it which may, many years ago,

have been accurate, but today... Its good for the media, you know, when they want to smear us.

But, in truth, its very difficult to characterize any real, major, you know, characteristic.

Look, in Kiryat Arba, you have Russians, youve still got Ethiopians, though there are less Ethiopians

today. Youve got people they call Bnei Menashe, you know, that have been brought over from India

and Pakistan. Youve got Ashkenazi, Sephardim, you name it, youve got it. And youve got people from

France, and youve got people from the States, and youve got Israelis. And, on a smaller degree,

youve got the same here in Hebron.

Who do people vote for?I dont have the stats for voting. You know, here you vote for parties. But I dont have stats from the last

elections, but most people vote here for religious parties.


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Hebron settlers: We are not extremists

The Hebron settlers feel demonized by the mainstream media, and say reports of settler violence are

exaggerated and some are even "black flag" ops.


Media, Image, Extremism

You just mentioned the media. How do you regard the mainstream Israeli view, especially the liberal

view, of your community?

David Wilder: How do I view their view of me? You need a double mirror for that. Look, the media is

very left wing, as a rule. There are always exceptions to the rule. You have journalists, you know, and

politicians who take a different path. But as a rule the media is extremely leftwing. And, as such, they

look at us as rightwing extremists who are, you know, a bone in the throat of peace. To put it very

generally.

And they express that. You know, we work with them. We work with the media and try to influence

however we can. Sometimes successfully, sometimes less successfully. But its very obvious that the

media is generally, not just here, but the world media also is. In the United States, the big media,whether it be the New York Times or the Washington Post or CNN. Perhaps one of the exceptions is

Fox, which is a little bit more moderate. But theyre usually, generally, very liberal, very leftwing.

So would you say you get a more sympathetic hearing within Israel or in the United States?

The difference between the United States and Israel in terms of media is that in the United States you

have much larger media. First of all, in Israel, if you look at television, youre talking about

government-licensed media. Theres very little private media, and the private media that was on our

side, you know, shut down. Ariel Sharon shut it down.

In the United States, you have much larger, much freer media. Anybody who is able to - I dont knowwhat the criteria are - can get a license. Anyone who has the money can open a radio station, or a

newspaper, or a television station, or go on cable, or whatever. And so, in terms of sympathy, as such,

among the more rightwing media in the United States theres much more sympathy. If you go down to

the Bible Belt and here some of the talk shows, theyre very conservative.

Do you feel things have shifted in the past few years, with, like, Netanyahu and his government? Do

you feel theyve become more sympathetic in the media to you?

No, the media hasnt become more sympathetic to us. There are people every once in a while who, you

know, stop and do a little bit of introspection; they sort of look and try to examine where they are and

where they are coming from. And every once in a while you can get somebody in the media or even a

politician.


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The head of the Labour party today, Shelly Yachimovich, who used to be on the radio. She wasnt a

very good friend of ours when she was on the radio. Today, she states that she opposes she

disagrees with our ideology, but she also comes out and says that people that are settlers are good

Israelis just like everyone else. She doesnt try to demonize us just because we live here. She can say

I disagree with them; I want to throw them out, but theyre not bad people.

But have things change in the media as a result of Netanyahus government?

No, because hes also considered to be rightwing, despite the fact that he also has Barak in his govern-

ment. Hes considered to have a rightwing coalition, so the media, they dont like him any more than

they like us. Hes not going to be a cause of them moving in our direction - to the contrary.

Newspapers like Maariv and so on, you dont find theyre sympathetic?

No.

Ok, you say that the Israeli media often labels you as extremists, what do you think of that label?

Its not just the Israeli media. Years ago, I dont know if you remember, there was a When I started

working here, almost 19 years ago, the New York Times correspondent, the head of the New York

Times, he was a guy called Serge Schmemann. I dont know where he is today; I see his name everyonce in a while, but hes not here, thank God. But he didnt like us. He was very leftwing and he was

very anti people like me in Hebron. And when he used to write in the Times about Hebron, he always

prefaced the word Hebron with extremists. It was almost like one word.

He was here once with one of his editors and I asked him, in front of his editor, why he always wrote

that. He didnt like that. He said, well, youre zealots and youre doing this and that. I said but you never

write that. You always write were extremists. He said, yeah, well, everybody knows what I mean.

I mean, you know, we dont think about it. You know different words have different connotations. Andin the media, when you say something enough When you write something enough times, then people

start to believe it. Because, you know, he writes it again and again and again, so it must be true.

When I think about extremism, I think about the Red Brigade, you know, Hizbullah, organizations that

go out and kill people. You know extremism, thats how I read extremism.

How would you describe Hebron?

What Ive used in the past is to say that we are ideological, that is, we live an ideal, ok? You can agree

with my ideal or you can disagree with my ideal. Thats legitimate. I dont have any problems with that.

People can think different things, and whatever.


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Its also like when the Israeli media talks about religion, religious people, so you have they can talk

about Orthodox religious, then they talk about Ultra-Orthodox. So whats an Ultra-Orthodox? What

makes somebody more Orthodox than somebody else? We all do the same thing: we keep kosher; we

keep the Sabbath; we do this and we dont do that. So why is that Ultra and this not? Usually, its the

way people dress. If hes got a hat and a long black coat, then hes Ultra If he just has a knitted kippa

like mine, then But theres no real difference between them.

The same thing is true with extremism. The fact is that I believe that people should live in Hebron. We

have over half a million people that visit here every year, so theyre all extremists? The people that

come to visit Hebron from the United States, whether they be Jewish or Christian, or whoever they are,

Israelis or whatever they are, are they extremists because they come to visit or because they support

us, ok, give us money? So what makes me extreme? Because I live a particular ideal that somebody

else disagrees with?

How about if your ideal, the majority of people disagree with it, would that make you extreme or not,

do you think?

No, why, I mean the ideal of democracy is that you can have a majority and a minority. I mean, I dont

know how it works in England, but take the American Supreme Court, and its nine justices. You havea case which is decided eight-to-one, is the justice whose one vote is against that of the majority

extremist because he disagrees with them, even though there are eight against one? No.

Look, its semantics which is used as a tool to create an impression on others. Thats what media does.

All right, you mentioned, connecting violence to extremism. Thats, in your mind, the defining factor.

How about the violence thats perpetrated by settlers, like, the price tag campaign, and so on. Do

you think of that as extremism?

First of all Ive got to point out, that the violence you mention, perpetrated by settlers is yet to be

proven. Weve seen many examples of provocations, by the left and by Arabs, who themselves perpe-trate anti-Arab acts and then blame Jews. And yes, it can be defined as extremism. But I think that

extremism can be also measured in different ways and you can have ideological extremism also.

But such acts, I think are considered by your normative Israeli, on whatever side of the fence he is, as

extremist.


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And do you think that its a manageable, containable problem, or do you think its spinning out of

control?

I think the spinning out of control is a media spin. I think, again, what were seeing today is use of

what a few people are doing as a tool to try to blow it up. In Israel, as in most other places, I suppose,

but I see it here, you have all sorts of different types of violence. Theres leftwing anarchist violence,

which has been going on for a few years, down, every Friday, in Bilin. You have all sorts of different

places where you have violence against Israeli soldiers which is perpetrated by Israelis and foreign-

ers and all sorts of people, and every once in a while it makes the news when somebody gets hit by a

rock. But, as a rule, they ignore it because its leftwing violence against Israel. Whats the difference

between leftwing violence against Israeli soldiers and rightwing violence against Israeli soldiers?

Theyre both violent; theyre both against the same body. This one is taken and turned into major head-

lines for a few days and the other one is ignored. You know, theyre both wrong, ok. But one is used for

the purpose of delegitimising us and the other one is ignored because part of the media agree with

what theyre doing, so, you know, lets just leave it alone.

And also, the number of Jews partaking in such actions is very very small.

You dont regard what happens in Bilin as non-violent protest?It is violent. What Im saying is that the same kind of violence. You can have two different groups that

are perpetrating the same kind of violence, and one of them is turned into a major media event, and

the other one is ignored.

You have a small group of people today, which is very frustrated.

Are they young or old?

Theyre young. People, once they get to my age, they dont have the energy to suffer like that anymore.

And what frustrates them, would you say?Policies which they believe, not only are they wrong but destructive, and they see people being

thrown out of their homes. They saw what happened in Gush Katif. They see the results of what

happened since then. They see it happening again, starting on a small scale and moving up, possibly,

to a very large scale. And they see all the warnings that are used to try to prevent that from happening,

I dont know if its falling on deaf ears or just not being listened to. They dont know how better to

express themselves to try to get something done.


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It doesnt necessarily justify the violence, but I dont think I think what were seeing today is still Lets

put it this way, you dont need a large group of people you dont need a whole lot of people to break

into a mosque and write something on the wall. You need one or two people. And if they really are

Jews who are doing it, eventually, theyll stop. I dont know how or when.

Its reaching a stage, though, where its turning off a lot of people that might sympathize with their belief

and the ideal, or the opinion behind it, but once you start to express it, as what happened yesterday in

the Israeli army base, people start to say, youre starting to cross red lines.

But, again, I dont think its the youre not reaching a stage today where it is out of hand.

Israels security forces, whether they be police or army or intelligence, are very large, it wouldnt

surprise me, for example, I dont know that it is, I dont have any factual evidence on our table here, but

we have seen in the past, provocations, when Israeli intelligence has used people as provocateurs to

do things like that, in order to be able to reach a particular goal.

So you think some of this violence is self-inflicted by the

I think. I dont know that it is, but it could be. Weve seen it before.

How about the contrary allegations that the security forces have been increasingly infiltrated byreligious elements and theyve risen up the ranks, and so on?

I sort of dont really agree with the word of infiltration. You understand the intrinsic contradiction in

that, you know, not yourself, coming from where youre coming from, but you hear this obviously on

Israeli radio from Israelis. So I understand where youre getting it from. But the built-in contradiction is

that when religious Israelis didnt go to the army, they were put down as not caring about the state of

Israel and not willing to defend the state of Israel and theyre not willing to put their lives on the line

just like everybody else. So when religious Israelis do go into the army and they are willing to work

very hard, and theyre willing to go to officer school, and they are willing to do what everybody else

does, its said that theyre infiltrating the army and rising in the ranks. If you go into the army, if yousend intelligent people into the army, and theyre motivated, then, you know, they can rise in the ranks

just like everybody else.

So, on the one hand, theyre saying that the religious people are taking over the army. On the other

hand, if we dont go into the army, they say, ahh, theyre not going into the army, theyre not really part

of the state of Israel.


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I think that people who receive proper education and they understand, ideologically, the importance of

the state of Israel, and they also understand the issues that we have to deal with today, you know, the

security issues that we have to deal with, I understand that we need an army and people should under-

stand that, if theres equal service, or something equivalent to equal service, then you go to the army.

Everybody does it you go in for a year and a half, three years, you can go for five years. And its very

widely accepted and its done.

So, you know, when religious people dont do it, theyre accused of not caring and not taking on

community service the way they should, and when they do go into the army, they say, ooh, theyre

infiltrating.

So you feel that your community is damned if it does and damned if it doesnt?

Well, were not talking about Hebron specifically, but on that particularly issue, yeah, thats an apt

description.

Khaled Diab: What Im gathering from what youve been saying is that you feel theres a lack of

understanding, comprehension and empathy and, even sympathy, towards your community and its

aspirations. But how about if we turn the tables, do you feel your community understands andcomprehends and empathies with mainstream concerns, such as, for example, you said that you were

about 800 people here, yet you need several hundred, or a couple of thousand, soldiers to protect your

presence here? Quite a lot of mainstream Israelis are relatively bitter about that. And how about the

wider concerns, that your presence here has a humanitarian impact on the Palestinian population of

Hebron.

David Wilder: Thats a big question, so lets chop it up. Lets start with the first part of the question. In

terms of the military. First of all, its important to understand that the community here is here with the

the community here was re-established with the express consent and approval of the Israeli govern-

ment. In other words, its not a pirate community. So, its real, its official, its not, you know, wheresomebody came in and they put up a tent, and then we grew and reached

But the early settlers after the 1967 war, werent they like that?

We first came back we came in 1968. People rented a hotel and then the Israeli government moved

them to a military compound, and they lived there for two and a half years. After that, Kiryat Arba was

established by the Israeli government, by Moshe Dayan, and they moved up there.


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In 1979, a group of women and children moved into Hebron, to Beit Hadassah, which was a Jewish

building, it was built by Jews in 1893 as a medical clinic which was used by both Jews and Arabs in

Hebron. At that time, it was empty. The prime minister then, Menachem Begin, wasnt overjoyed that

they were there but he didnt throw them out. He made their living conditions extremely difficult, but he

didnt expel them.

In 1980, following a terrorist attack here, when six men were killed, the Israeli government voted and

reestablished officially a Jewish community in Hebron. And a lot of, not all of, the buildings but some

of the buildings here, the rebuilding or the renovations, were done with funding from the Israeli govern-

ment. So its something thats real and official, ok.

The fact that there are people who dont like it, you know. I dont like Tel Aviv, does that mean we

should tear Tel Aviv down and throw everybody out? No. I like this; they like that.

In terms of the military presence here, the Israeli military, or the Israeli government, has policies

whereby they protect Jews wherever they are. And there are Jews here, so they also have to be

protected. When I came to Israel in 1974, you didnt have in Jerusalem security guards at bus stops,

checking people getting on buses to make sure theyre not carrying bombs to blow up people on the

bus. Its a tremendous outlay to have security people at bus stops, you know, but Israel did it because

it was a necessity. And the same thing is true in Hebron.

Im not responsible for the fact that there are only 850 people here. The property that we have is full. If

were allowed to build in Hebron on the property that we own, then we could have more people here. If

we could buy from Arabs that want to sell us property, we could have more people. But as youre very

much aware, PA law says that Arabs who sell property to Jews will be summarily executed its a

capital crime (Ed: the PA has not actually executed anyone for this offence) (DW: This is inaccurate.

Google the name Assad Rajibi). And they do it, so most Arabs, theyre not looking, you know, for all

those virgins up there in the sky, so they dont do it, because theyre not really interested in getting

killed. Its a very difficult procedure.

The military that is here have several different functions. Theyre here to protect me, for sure. Theyre

also here to protect you, and all the other people that come here to visit, because we have a lot of

people that come in to visit. Today, theres a group of 400 people here.

But, as far as Im concerned, the most important role of the military here has absolutely nothing to do

with us. When Hebron was divided in 1997, the Hebron Accords, Israel pulled out of most of the city. It

was given entirely to Arafat, and we pulled everything out. When we did that, the other side of Hebron

turned into a terrorist nest, and you had people running around Israel from Hebron blowing themselves

up, in Tel Aviv and Beer Sheva and Haifa. There was a soccer team, a football team, in Hebron that


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In other words, when there was no Israeli intelligence, no Israeli security, on the other side of the city,

it just, you know, it turned into a breeding ground for terrorism. And the same thing happened in Jenin.

It happened in other places. And it cost us. It cost us a lot of lives. The Israeli military, as far as Im

concerned is here at least as much for, if not more, to protect the people in Tel Aviv as they are to

protect me. Because if they can prevent someone from building a bomb and getting out to Tel Aviv or

wherever they want to go to blow themselves up, then thats certainly no less important than making

sure that Im safe and youre safe. And that takes soldiers, you know.

Well, you can say that, if we pulled out of all of Hebron. Great! Well, then lets just look at if we want

to learn a little bit from our recent past, we did that in Gush Katif. We pulled out of Gush Katif and we

got 10,000 rockets back into Israel from what we gave them.

And you regard that as a pullout? I mean, the military is still in there.

They pulled out. They pulled out entirely.

Yes, but the military presence of Israel is still there. Theres the whole no-mans-land. Theres the

perimeter. Therere regular raids. The borders and economy are controlled by Israel.

No, no, of course not. The only reason you have raid is stop them shooting rockets at us. When wepulled out, the idea was the Europeans invested a lot of money there. The Israelis who were down

there, they had initiated and developed tremendous flower industries and the Europeans bought a lot

of the hothouses that they used, which were I dont understand the field at all, but they were very

sophisticated So that the Arabs who then inherited what we left would be able to use them, and they

destroyed them. They took them apart; they destroyed them. When Israel pulls out of areas, theyve

turned into terrorist bases which have wreaked havoc in Israel proper, ok. Im not talking about what

they try to do in Hebron. Im talking about what they try to do to people in Tel Aviv and that, I think, is

a major reason why the military is here and why the numbers have to be where theyre at.

So thats the first part of the question. The other part of the question is dealing with you asked me

about, you know, well, there are people that dont like us here So, there are people that dont like us,

so what?

The concept of Hebron i.e. Jews with horns and tails who breathe fire and eat one Arab for breakfast

and two for lunch and three for dinner with the blood dripping off from your moustache from the one

youve just finished thats the vision that people have. And they come in and its not like that. When I

used to give tours I still give tours but a different kind of tour


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We would start in Kiryat Arba and the bus would come in and Id just go around Kiryat Arba in the bus

before coming down here into Hebron. And I used to watch peoples faces, and they didnt believe it.

They didnt believe they were in Kiryat Arba, because Kiryat Arba is a settlement, and you know what

a settlement is, a settlement is some tents, right? But thats what people thought, that was the vision

they had.

And a lot of Israelis who come in, not for a political tour, they can ask questions if they like, but forget

the politics, just the historical element, the religious element, what Hebron means to the Jewish

people, whether youre religious or youre not religious, it doesnt make any difference. Everybody has

a heritage, and they see it and they hear a little bit, and all of a sudden (clicks fingers): this isnt what

they taught me about Hebron. And its a totally different image. And thats when mainstream Israelis

who say maybe we shouldnt be here start saying, maybe we should be. And weve had that happen.

It happened not so long ago. A major Israeli television entertainment personality was here and, after

he was here, he said, yeah, there are problems with the community here and there, but we cant leave

Hebron, you know, and that happens when people see it, when theyre here, when they start to feel it a

little bit. And we see that happen time and time and time again. Its not an isolated kind of a thing.

To touch on something you said in passing about the taboo amongst Palestinians towards selling

property to Israeli Jews. How does the community here and other groups among the Jewish

community feel about selling land to Arabs, Palestinians? Look, if a Palestinian came and asked to

buy your land

Ok, look, theres a major difference between what I like and what I dont like and what is legally accept-

able. I can say that I dont like it, I can even oppose it, but the Supreme Court just ruled, up north in one

of the moshavim, that when they had a tender to buy property, there was an Arab couple that wanted

to buy and the community wouldnt let them, the Supreme Court said you have to let them, you have to

sell it to them, because theyre no different than anybody else.

Legally, according to PA law, which is based on Jordanian law, an Arab that sells property to a Jew is

to be killed. Israeli law doesnt say that. There can be reasons why yes and why no; there can be secu-

rity elements; there can be all sorts of elements.

We used to have here, many years ago They were building outside here, and there were Arab work-

ers. One day, an Arab came inside here, with a gun, and he pulled them all together and told them if

you come back here tomorrow, Ill kill you. That was an Arab telling the Arabs. The next day nobody

showed up.


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In other words, there can be differences of opinion pro, for, against, whatever and thats all legiti-

mate. But when you take that and legalise it, and you say the law is

But isnt there a law, a form of legalization, that says Israel officially owns all the land of Israel, like

the Israeli government

I wish that was true, but its not. I mean, you can ask me religiously what I believe, but in terms of

whats on the books, the president of the Supreme Court ruled, much to my own personal differing of

opinion or opposition, but shes the president of the Supreme Court, not me at least, for a little while

longer, she is. She ruled that any land thats not registered as being owned by the Israeli government

or the state of Israel belongs to the Arabs. Now I dont know where she gets that from. But its just the

opposite of what you just said.

There is land thats owned by Arabs, I know that, and theres land that isnt. Theres land thats owned

by Jews, thats owned by Arabs, theres state-owned land. In any country in the world, theres state-

owned land.

And you think land captured by conquest is legitimate property?

Youre asking about

Like what, for example, the international community regards as occupied territory?

Like the Jordanian conquest of 1948. The land that they took in 1948 by conquest. Is that legally theirs

or not?

Or the land that Israel took in 1967. I mean, in all cases.

First of all, you see one of the anomalies of the conflict today is that theres almost a given that

violence, or different levels of violence, committed by one side is legitimate and accepted and under-

stood and justifiable,and from the other side its not. There are consequences. If somebody declareswar, or forget the war, if somebody walks into my office, and I start beating them up. You walked into

my office just now and you said, my name is Khaled, and I jump on you and start hitting you, and you

sue me, ok. You sue me for a million shekels. You take me to court. Then Im going to have to pay the

consequences for beating you up. May be you beat me up too. But I have to pay for what I did. Its my

problem. It might have hurt you, but I have to pay the consequences for what I did.

If somebody starts a war with you, then there are consequences for that. People cant declare war and

figure that even if they lose, theyre not going to have to pay a price. You know, when you say, as

Nasser said, were going to throw them into the sea and, you know, he made a pact with the Syriansand the Jordanians, and he said, you know, lets finish them off.


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In 1967, the prime minister was Levi Eshkol

But didnt Israel start the 1967 war or dont you regard that Israel started it?

I dont know. The history books that I have say that Nasser closed the Straits of Tiran. Thats an act of

war. The United Nations left. You know, thats an act of war. The fact that he closed the Straits of Tiran,

that he put a blockade on Israel, and said were going to throw you into the sea, formed a military pact

with the Syrians and the Jordanians, I think thats pretty much an act of war.

When Levi Eshkol was prime minister and he sent representatives from the state of Israel, including

Golda Meir, to Hussein in Jordan saying to him, we dont want anything, just leave us alone we have

enough to worry about up north and down south, just leave us alone. Well leave you alone, you leave

us alone. And his response was to start shelling Jerusalem. He started shooting missiles from Jordan

into Israel.

So, what, he thought he was going to do that and we were going to just ignore him? May be he thought

that we would be finished, that they would defeat us and he would get everything. He wouldnt just

have East Jerusalem, he would get West Jerusalem too and a little bit more. But it didnt work like that.

You cant start a war and expect that, if by chance you lose the war, its not going to cost you anything.

We came into Judea and Samaria and Gaza as a result of that war. And we stayed. Today, when

people talk about the Geneva Convention and civilians and all of that, there are many different

responses to all of those questions. The first one is, of course, if you want to say that were not allowed

to be here, or that were occupying this, then whos the legal owner, so to speak?

In other words, back in 1974 or 1975, Hussein relinquished all claims to Judea and Samaria. He said,

I dont want anything to do with it. Its not mine any more'.

But he relinquished them to the Palestinians, not to Israel.No, he said, its not mine.

And he voted for the Palestinians, the PLO, as the representatives of the interests of the Palestinian

people.

But that doesnt mean just because he said so that it belongs to them. I mean, like, you know. The ques-

tions involved I mean, legally, I dont have any problems with international law. I mean, there are no

problems.But if we take a place like Hebron You know, for 700 years, Jews and Christians had no

access to Machpelah, the Tomb of the Patriarchs.


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Is that true?

Oh, yeah, unfortunately its true. In the year 1267 In 1260, the Mamluks pushed out the Crusaders. The

Crusaders came in about 1100. And, ironically, the Crusaders in Hebron threw out the Jews. It was the

first time I know of in a long, long time that there hadnt been Jews in Hebron.

In 1260, the Mamluks threw out the Crusaders and let the Jews back in. The Mamluk emperor was a

guy called Baybars and he closed off Temple Mount and, as an aside, he closed of Machpelah. He

said, its a mosque. And for 700 years, we couldnt go inside. There used to be stairs on the eastern

wall. Jews could go up to the seventh step. Thats as far as we could go. They started to let Christians

back in in the early to middle 1900s. Jews couldnt go in. And for hundreds and hundreds of years, there

were stairs on the eastern wall and Jews could go up to the seventh step.

And its only since we came back, is that side accessible to anybody. Anybody who wants to can go

in. There are different sides, and this for this, and that for that, but anybody that wants to can go inside,

with very, very few exceptions. Today, and you can read it, Im writing about it now, the Arab mayor of

Hebron I say it to people all the time, but nobody really believes it, but now hes said it He said it,

you know, and it was printed by, in Time magazine, by Karl Vick whos not a big friend of ours, so if he

writes thats what they said, then I think hes accurate. The Arab mayor of Hebron today says that if heever controls it, he wont let Jews back in. He says its a mosque, always has been, always will be. He

said, you know, weve been there as a mosque since, you know, 1260 or 1400 or whatever date.

If were not here, then theres no access. Its gone.

So, you feel yourselves to be guardians of the Jewish heritage of Hebron?

We Lets put it this way, if there wasnt a Jewish community in Hebron today, it doesnt matter whether

Im here or somebody else is here, if there wasnt a Jewish community in Hebron today, Machpelah

wouldve been lost a long time ago. We wouldve lost Machpelah in 1997. Arafat demanded it then, andthey wouldnt give it to him. And the people who wouldnt give it to him werent rightwing extremists

like me, they were leftwing extremists. But they were the ones running the show, and they took Arafat

the numbers, and they said this is how many Jews are visiting and how many Arabs are visiting. We

cant give it away, we cant give it to you, there are too many Jews that go visit, and those numbers

keep growing.


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Yes, especially since you have another poster behind you which says, Dont the Arab states have

enough land of their own?

You probably saw what Newt Gingrich said the other day: Remember, there was no Palestine as a

state. It was part of the Ottoman Empire. We have invented the Palestinian people, who are in fact

Arabs and are historically part of the Arab people, and they had the chance to go many places.

Yes, I did.

It probably didnt go over really, really well, but he couldve been quoting me. I mean, look

Because for me, as an Arab, I see a distinct Palestinian identity, culture, history, and so on. So, I want

to see how you view it.

Ill put it very simply. When was the last time there was a king of Palestine or a Palestinian parliament

or a Palestinian who won the Nobel prize or a Palestinian anything? Look, historically, just historically,

ok I cant say forget the politics because its all politics.

But if we just take historical facts, ok. You may have even studied more history. I used to study history,

but you may know more history than me. But where does the word Palestine come from?

Well, it comes from the Romans and the Philistines.So, like I said, youre up on your history. Ok, because most of the people when I ask them that question,

they dont know anything about the Romans. But the word [Syria]Palestinaof course came from the

Romans 2,000 years ago. It was a 2,000-year-old term that was used when they threw the Jews out,

after the destruction of the Second Temple.

But they didnt throw all the Jews out. A lot of the Palestinians around now were probably Jews once.

Hang on a second. Hang on a second. So let me evolve what Im trying to say. Again, I dont expect

you to agree with me. Ill explain to you where Im coming from. Palestine came from [Syria]Palestina

[see history of the term Palestine]. The Romans destroyed the Second Temple, and they wanted tocreate an entity which didnt have any Jewish identity to it. Hadrian took Jerusalem and they changed

the name of Yerushalayim to Aelia Capitolina. They threw the Jews out of Jerusalem, all of them out of

Yerushalayim, and they changed the name to Aelia Capitolina.

Why did they do that? Its very simple. I mean, simplistically, you want to create a new identity, you

change the name. I mean, it doesnt have the same association any more. It has a different association

to it. Rather than have Israel, Yisrael, which has a Jewish identity to it, they changed the name to Pales-

tina. They took the Palestina from the Philistineswho died out a thousand years before.


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Or they were integrated into the other peoples of the region.

Whatever, but there were no Philistines anymore. The Philistines died out during the days of King

David. You didnt have them during the days of the Roman conquest. So, all of a sudden, you have

Palestina, the same way you, Aelia Capitalina. And it stayed. Over the next 2,000 years, I dont even

remember, but I can pull it out for you there were about 14 or 16 different peoples that ruled in this

little piece of land, which you can call Palestina or Palestine or Israel or whatever you want.

But ruled as part of an empire.

But there was never a Palestinian entity or ruler during that period

But the local people largely stayed the same, more or less. There was some immigration, obviously

You had different local peoples, depending on who was here at any given time. In the time of the

Greeks, it was Greek. In the time of the Romans, you had Romans. You had local people but you didnt

have a whole lot of them. Were talking about 2,000 years ago. Were talking about 1,500 years ago.

The populations around here were much smaller and very different. The last empire to rule here was

the Ottoman Empire.

Well, there were the British, dont forget them.

Thats post... Im talking about before them. Before then, you had the Ottoman Empire that ruled here.

In terms of different kinds of populations, you know what, Ive seen different historical documents that

say different things. One of the best, one of the more popular items, is, which Im sure youre probably

familiar with, was which I have actually here on the iPad, which I pulled off is Mark Twains book.

Y

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Breaking the Lies by David Wilder