General Topics :: Being Slain in the Spirit by Bill Niland

General Topics :: Being Slain in the Spirit by Bill Niland

Being Slain in the Spirit by Bill Niland - posted by bible4life (), on: 2012/1/24 16:49SLAIN IN THE SPIRIT -Warning! You will receive demonic spirits....read on!

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The Bible is clear that there would come a time that many in the churchwould come to believe false doctrines.

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

2ndTim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itchingears;

The baptism of the Holy Ghost is not something that can be passed on by breathing on or laying hands on someone. Jesus is still the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit. Jesus is constantly filling us with His spirit.

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What is being slain in the spirit.? Someone will invite those who need healing or emotional and spiritual needs to come to the front of the church. They willeither lay hands or blow on the individuals and they will fall backwards going into a trance like state. Some will just lie there while others may jerk, laugh, cry, roll, speak in tongues or have visions.

There is no Biblical evidence showing one being slain the spirit. The new or immature Christian may just accept this practice, simply because he does not know any better. I have even had some tell me they just pretended because they were afraid that others might think them unspiritual. Heb 5:13 Forevery one that useth milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groaning which cannot be uttered.

The mature Christian will test the spirits. 1John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 6 We are of God: he that knows God hears us; he that is not of God hears not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

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The Occult Connection

Ellis Stewart, research director for Bill Rudge Ministries, in an article titled "Hindu Occultism" wrote: "The most feared and revered deity in Hinduism is the goddess Kali (Durga), the wife of Shiva the destroyer. She is also known as Shakti, which means force and represents the impersonal force that occultism teaches runs the universe. The divine power-touch of the guru is called Shakti pat. This is a term used for the touch (or near

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touch) of a guru's hand to the worshipper's forehead that produces supernatural effects. Shakti literally means power (sothey believe) underlying the universe. The supernatural effect of shakti through the guru's touch may knock the worshipper to the floor or he may see a bright light and receive an experience of enlightenment or inner illumination, or have some other mystical or psychic experience."

Bhagwhan Shree Rajnessh, a guru who placed a special emphasis on Zen Buddhism, passed his new spiritual "wine" with a single touch to the forehead of his followers. They would fall to the floor in ecstasy, drunkwith the new "wine."

Swami Baba Muktananda would slay followers in the spirit through Shakti-pat (physical touch). "Holy" laughter, crying, shaking and animal manifestations would occur regularly at his meetings.

Followers of Yan Xin, a Chinese Qigong master, encountered "holy" laughter and other strange physical sensations.

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When we see Jesus pray for someone, did someone have to stand behind them to catch them? Do we see any of the disciples slapping someone on the forehead as they fall backwards or blowing on them when they prayed? Wedon't need to be slain in the Spirit but cut by the very word of God. John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shall be no priest tome: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit,and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Paul tells us: Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; 19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

We don't have to be slain in the spirit to receive the anointing of the HolySpirit. Every believer receives the gift of the spirit when he receives Christ as his personal Savior, salvation. Does the Bible show people line upin a church service in a row and have the power of the Holy Spirit given to them by some anointed person with someonestanding behind them to catch them? God does not need a conduit for His power.

In Rodney Browne's book, The Anointing, p.22, he states that any Believer can operate in any of the nine gifts of the Spirit. This is false statement. In 1 Corinthians 12 we learn that the Holy Spirit gives the gifts of the spirit and no one has allthe gifts. The body of believers work together, each having his own gift. 1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

On the Larry King Show Benny Hinn described the anointing as " Now here we are, human beings you know, made out of dust and God will touch the body with His power. It's just like touching electricity, you know. It couldthrow you. It could also kill you if there's too much of it."

The Holy Spirit is not like electricity.

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Those who had an experience with God fell on their faces in worship and fear!

Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying ..

Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant? 15 And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Eze 1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, andI heard a voice of one that spake.

Eze 43:1 Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east: 2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from theway of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory. 3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face.

Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whomI am well pleased; hear ye him. 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

When God met with these it was not in a corporate setting. Their falling on their faces was in awe and fear.

Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, andworshipped God,

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

This is not some hypnotic trance. They fell in worship and awe of God.

When Christ breathed on the disciples did they fall down? John 20:22 And whenhe had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Those who promote "slain in the spirit" use Saul's encounter with God on the road to Damascus for Biblical support. Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Saul was not a believer and was on his way to persecute more of the Christians. He fell to the earth when he was knocked down to the ground by the Sheckinah glory and a revelation from the Lord. No one touched him or knocked him downand no one caught him. In fact all that were with him fell to the ground. Act 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Since Paul was an unbeliever how does this provide justification for slaying in the spirit today?

Notice those that were not saved and in judgment from God fell backward, but again no one catches them.

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Slain or falling backwards is a judgement of God

Joh 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. 6 As soon then as hehad said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

1Sa 4:18 And it came to pass, when he made mention of the ark of God, that he fell from off the seat backward by the side of the gate, and his neckbrake, and he died: for he was an old man, and heavy. And he had judged Israel forty years.

Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, andthere a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Saul had just heard of his impending death from Samuel and he fell full length on the ground. 1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was nostrength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

Does being slayed in the spirit make one closer to God? Are they more spiritual? Why does someone have to catch you? Why would God want you to pass out? Why would this be the way to have an experience the Holy Spirit when you already have him in you as a Christian? Why is none of this mentioned in the Bible? Why, because this is straight from the devil. This spirit is not of God. This is of the antichrist. 2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

When one is slain in the spirit by someone touching them, is this bringing glory to God or drawing attention to the one doing the touching? I have counseled and delivered many people from these demonic spirits over the years. It is amazing how the pentecostal movements provide an wonderful atmosphere for demonic spirits to move amongst the people freely, and being freely invited in due to ignorance and false gospel messages.

People are being deceived, almost hypnotized or in a trance-like state by another touching them or blowing on them. Sometimes this is done repeatedly. Why is there a need to blow them down over and over? Wasn't once enough? Sometimes music is used to get the people in an emotional state. The music is played loudly with a beat. The words are repetitious and it places the congregation in a state of hypnosis.(Sort of like tribal voodoo experiences where people are put in a trance and fall like dead people and spirits take over their bodies)

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My friends, stop suscribing to the false Pentecostal teachings and their teachers and be free! This quick teaching and warning is given out of love for you and for the truth of God. Do not let your pride or comfort allow you to be kept in bondage and false teachings....but submit to God in truth! Thank you, Bill Niland, an Ambassador for Christ Jesus

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Re: Being Slain in the Spirit by Bill Niland - posted by Leeza, on: 2012/1/24 21:07Thanks for explaining and researching this. Many years ago, I went to a church with a friend, and I was in great need emotionally. It was a ladies meeting, and they prayed for me, and next thing I know I am on the floor. They told me to speakin tongues, and I couldnt. Something happened though, and now I fear that it may have been what you are saying.

Re: , on: 2012/1/24 21:39Thanks for posting this. Sadly some/many will still defend this based on experience and emotion instead of the on the Word, but it needs to be said none the less.

Re: - posted by jimp, on: 2012/1/24 21:57hi, at one time in my life i was used by God to pray for the sick and those who desired the baptism in the Holy Spirit at the great church we attended. many miracles and all were filled with instant evidence of speaking fluidly in unknown tongues and then they were getting (slain in the spirit).the result:no miracles, me filled with pride, noone filled.the pride deal stunted my growth for a while asit will yours.jimp

Re: Being Slain in the Spirit by Bill Niland - posted by JonBartlett, on: 2012/1/25 9:49"The baptism of the Holy Ghost is not something that can be passed on by breathing on or laying hands on someone"What do you think of these passages?

Acts 8:17 -Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:18 - Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostlesÂ’ hands, he offeredthem money,

Acts 19:6 - And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

1 Tim 4:14- Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.

2 Tim 1:6 - For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.

Re: , on: 2012/1/25 13:09I praise the Lord that He delivered me from a lot of Charismatic foolishness... such as being "slain in the spirit".

The more I grew in knowledge and understanding of God's Word the further away from that stuff He took me.

Funny how that works.

Krispy

Re: Being Slain in the Spirit by Bill Niland - posted by JHerndon (), on: 2012/1/25 14:34I do not believe that being "slain in the spirit" is a normative experience. But to say that people who are slain in the spirit are demon possessed is a little extreme. Self control is a fruit of the Spirit so He is not going to over power you and throw you to the ground. I think this mostly comes from people having the idea that this is some awesome spiritual experience and see others do it and want people to think they are super spiritual so they do it too. I do know of one occassion a friend of mine was on a mission trip in Brazil and this man was praying for him and seemed he wasnt going to stop until hewas "slain" so my friend took the fall. lol

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Re: , on: 2012/1/25 14:45J, I agree... I know for a fact that many fall out because they think thats what is expected, or they feel pressured because others are doing it and they dont want to look less spiritual. It generally has nothing to do with being demon possessed.

If someone falls to the ground and shakes and foams at the mouth and their eyes roll back in their headsÂ… that very well could be demon possession. IÂ’ve seen that in the church and passed off as the Holy Spirit. Interesting that in the Bible Jesus healed people of seizuresÂ… no record of Him giving them seizures.

Krispy

Re: Being Slain in the Spirit by Bill Niland - posted by DEADn (), on: 2012/1/25 16:24Slain in the Spirit is one of those things that I think pentecostals take to the extreme and the more fundamental crowd just throw it totally out the door.

This 'thing' Happened to me one time. I can assume it was 'slain in the Spirit'. What happened with me is I went up for prayer as it was Father's day. I went up for a release of the anger I had toward my dad. I stood there with my eyes closed and after a minute I fell back onto the floor. No one caught me and my eyes didn't even open up. I just laid there and gradually I began to weep. I was there for 30 minutes? I got up and I felt as if I had been through a car wash in my heart. The whole thing felt as a natural yet supernatural experience, if that makes sense? I got up and I felt released from my anger. It is really the only time I can say this 'thing' happened to me.

Now, my take on the whole thing, I don't necessarily have scripture to say it is of God or not of God. I treat it like I do the issue of Tongues. A person can have all of these experiences but if the person cannot love and forgive others than all of these experiences are nothing more than show and sounding brass.

Re: , on: 2012/1/25 16:31We do not see Christians in the NT being slain in the Spirit, therefore it is something that is "extra-Biblical", or "outside of" scripture. By definition it is "unBiblical" simply because it is not in the Bible and there is zero scripture to support it without wrenching and twisting something completely out of context.

I would prefer to err on the conservative side and stick with what is spelled out for us in the Bible.

Krispy

Re: - posted by Miccah (), on: 2012/1/25 16:34

Quote:-------------------------I would prefer to err on the conservative side and stick with what is spelled out for us in the Bible.-------------------------

Your such a fundamentalist.

Re: - posted by DEADn (), on: 2012/1/25 18:47Slain in the Spirit is only a normal thing in pentecostal circles. They like to use OT examples to say it is good. I figure that if it doesn't produce good stuff than throw it out. I don't think it should be happening alot. Matter o fact I figure if it happens it should be happening in the prayer closet rather than within the church.

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Re: - posted by brothagary, on: 2012/1/25 18:58how do we explain great revivlests like weasly whitfield ,and johnathan edwards ,,,having people fall down at there preaching ,,,,,,,,in weaslys preaching more then 1500 were slaid in the spirit

paris reid head tells in his sermon ten shekls and a shirt about this penomina

edwards wrote extensivly about this experance even his own wife was over come by the spirit ,,edwards said he wished he would experance this also

none of this nem were carasmatic

what are your thoughts

may i also copy some words from jonathen edwards regading the manfestations he was under the revivle in his day

Re: - posted by brothagary, on: 2012/1/25 19:09 bodly manfestations and holy afections by johnathan edwards

Another foundation-error of those who do not acknowledge the divinity of this work is, not taking the Holy Scriptures as whole, and in itself a sufficient rule to judge of such things by. They who have one certain consistent rule to judge by, are like to come to some clear determination; but they who have a dozen different rules, instead of justly and clearly determining, do but perplex and darken themselves and others. They who would learn the true measure of any thing, and will have many different measures to try it by, have a task that they will not accomplish.Â—Those of whom I am speaking will indeed make some use of Scripture, so far as they think it serves their turn, but do not make use of it alone as a rule sufficient by itself, but make as much and a great deal more use of other things, diverse and wide from it, by which to judgeof this work. For,

1. Some make philosophy, instead of the Holy Scriptures, their rule of judging of this work; particularly the philosophical notions they entertain of the nature of the soul, its faculties and affections. Some are ready to say, Â“There is but little sober solid religion in this work; it is little else but flash and noise. Religion now all runs out into transports and high flights of the passions and affections.Â” In their philosophy, the affections of the soul are something diverse from the will, and not appertaining to the noblest part of the soul. They are ranked among the meanest principles that belong to men as partaking of animal nature, and what he has in common with the brute creation, rather than any thing whereby he is conformed to angels and pure spirits. And though they acknowledge that a good use may be made of the affections in religion, yet they suppose that the substantial part of religion does not consist in them, but that they are something adventitious and accidental in Christianity.

But these gentlemen, I cannot but think, labour under great mistakes, both in their philosophy and divinity. It is true; distinction must be made in the affections or passions. There is a great deal of difference in high and raised affections, which must be distinguished by the skill of the observer. Some are much more solid than others. There are many exercises of the affections that are very flashy, and little to be depended on; and oftentimes a great deal appertains to them, or rather is the effect of them, that has its seat in animal nature, and is very much owing to the constitution and frame of the body; and that which sometimes more especially obtains the name of passion, is nothing solid or substantial. But it is false philosophy to suppose this to be the case with all exercises of affection in the soul, or with all great and high affections; and false divinity to suppose that religious affections do not appertain to the substance and essence of Christianity. On the contrary, it seems to me that the very life and soul of all true religion consists in them.

I humbly conceive that the affections of the soul are not properly distinguished from the will, as though they were two faculties. All Acts of the affections are in some sense acts of the will, and all the acts of the will are acts of the affections. AllExercises of the will are, in some degree or other, exercises of the soulÂ’s appetition or aversion; or which is the same thing, of its love or hatred. The soul wills one thing rather than another, or chooses one thing rather than another, no othe

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rwise than as it loves one thing more than another; but love and hatred are affections of the soul. Therefore all acts of the will are truly acts of the affections; though the exercises of the will do not obtain the name of passions, unless the will either in its aversion or opposition, be exercised in a high degree, or in a vigorous and lively mannerÂ—All will allow that true virtue or holiness has its seat chiefly in the heart, rather than in the head. It therefore follows, from what has been said already, that it consists chiefly in holy affections. The things of religion take place in menÂ’s hearts, no further than they are affected with them. The informing of the understanding is all vain, any farther than it affects the heart, or, which is the same thing, has influence on the affections.

Those gentlemen, who make light of these raised affections in religion, will doubtless allow that true religion and holiness, as it has its seat in the heart, is capable of very high degrees, and high exercises in the soul. For instance, they will probably allow, that the holiness of the heart or will is capable of being raised to a hundred times as great a degree of strength as it is in the most eminent saint on earth, or to be exerted in a hundred times so vigorous exercises of the heart; and yet be true religion or holiness still. Now therefore I would ask them, by what name they will call these high and vigorous exercises of the will or heart? Are they not high affections? What can they consist in, but in high acts of love; strong and vigorous exercises of benevolence and complacence; high, exalting, and admiring thoughts of God and his perfections; strong desires after God, &c.?Â—And now, what are we come to but high and raised affections? Yea, those very affections that before they objected against, as worthy of little regard?

All will allow that there is nothing but solid religion in heaven; but there, holiness is raised to an exceeding great height, to strong, high, exalted exercises of heart. Now, what other strong and high exercises, or of holiness as it has its seat in their hearts, can we devise for them, but holy affections, high degrees of actings of love to God, rejoicing in God, admiration of God, &c.?Â—Therefore these things in the saints and angels in heaven are not to be despised and cashiered by the name of great heats and transports of the passions.Â—And it will doubtless be yet further allowed, that the more eminent the saints are on earth, the stronger their grace, and the higher its exercises are, the more they are like the saints in heaven, i. e. (by what has been just now observed,) the more they have of high or raised affections in religion.

Though there are false affections in religion, and in some respects raised high; yet undoubtedly there are also true, holy,and solid affections; and the higher these are raised, the better. And, when they are raised to an exceeding great height,they are not to be suspected merely because of their degree, but on the contrary to be esteemed. Charity, or divine love,is in Scripture represented as the sum of all the religion of the heart; but this is only a holy affection. And therefore, in proportion as this is firmly fixed in the soul, and raised to a great height, the more eminent a person is in holiness. Divine love or charity is represented as the sum of all the religion of heaven, and that wherein mainly the religion of the church in its more perfect state on earth shall consist, when knowledge, and tongues, and prophesyings shall cease; and therefore the higher this holy affection is raised in the church of God, or in a gracious soul, the more excellent and perfect is thestate of the church, or a particular soul.

If we take the Scriptures for our rule, then the greater and higher our exercises of love to God, delight and complacency in him, desires and longings after him, delight in his children, love to mankind, brokenness of heart, abhorrence of sin, and self-abhorrence for it; the more we have of the peace of God which passeth all understanding, and joy in the Holy Ghost, unspeakable and full of glory; the higher our admiring thoughts of God, exulting and glorying in him; so much the higher is ChristÂ’s religion, or that virtue which he and his apostles taught, raised in the soul.

It is a stumbling to some, that religious affections should seem to be so powerful, or that they should be so violent, (as they express it,) in some persons. They are therefore ready to doubt whether it can be the Spirit of God; or, whether this vehemence be not rather a sign of 368 the operation of an evil spirit. But why should such a doubt arise? What is represented in Scripture as more powerful in its effects than the Spirit of God? Which is therefore called Â“the power of the Highest,Â” Luke i. 35. and its saving effect in the soul is called Â“the power of godliness.Â” So we read of the Â“demonstration of the Spirit and of power,Â” 1 Cor. ii. 4. And it is said to operate in the minds of men with the Â“exceeding greatness of divine power,Â” and Â“according to the working of GodÂ’s mighty power,Â” Eph. i. 19. So we read of Â“the effectual working of his power, Â” Eph. iii. 7Â“. Â“the power that worketh in Christians, Â” Eph. iii. 20. the glorious power of God in the operations of the Spirit, Col. i. 11. In 2 Tim. i. 7. the Spirit of God is called 2 Tim. i. 7. Â“the Spirit of power, and of love,and of a sound mind.Â”Â—So the Spirit is represented by a mighty wind, and by fire, things most powerful in their operation. Many are guilty of not taking the Holy Scriptures as a sufficient and whole rule, whereby to judge of this work. They judge by those things which the Scripture does not give as any signs or marks whereby to judge one way or the other, viz. the effects that religious exercises and affections of mind have upon the body. Scripture-rules respect the state of the mind, moral conduct, and voluntary behaviour, and not the physical state of the body. The design of the Scripture is to teach us divinity, and not physic and anatomy. Ministers are made the watchmen of menÂ’s souls, and not their bodies; and therefore the great rule which God has committed into their hands, is to make them divines, and not physicians.Â—Ch

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rist knew what instructions and rules his church would stand in need of, better than we do; and, if he had seen it needful in order to the churchÂ’s safety, he doubtless would have given to ministers rules for judging of bodily effects. He would have told them how the pulse should beat under such and such religious exercises of mind; when men should look pale,and when they should shed tears; when they should tremble, and whether or no they should ever be put into convulsions. He probably would have put some book into their hands, that should have tended to make them excellent anatomists and physicians. But he has not done it, because he did not see it to be needful.Â—He judged, that if ministers thoroughly did their duty as watchmen and overseers of the state and frame of menÂ’s souls, and of their voluntary conduct, according to the rules he had given, his church would be well provided for as to its safety in these matters. And therefore those ministers of Christ, and overseers of souls, who are full of concern about the involuntary motions of the fluids and solids of menÂ’s bodies, and who from thence are full of doubts and suspicions of the causeÂ—when nothing appears but that the state and frame of their minds, and their voluntary behaviour, is good, and agreeable to GodÂ’s wordÂ—go out of the place that Christ has set them in, and leave their proper business, as much as if they should undertake to tell who are under the influence of the Spirit by their looks, or their gait. I cannot see which way we are in danger, or how the devil is like to get any notable advantage against us, if we do but thoroughly do our duty with respect to those two things, viz. the state of personsÂ’ minds, and their moral conduct; seeing to it that they be maintained in an agreeableness to the rules that Christ has given us. If things are but kept right in these respects, our fears and suspicions arising from extraordinary bodily effects seem wholly groundless. The most specious thing alleged against these extraordinary effects on the body, is, That the body is impaired, and that it is hard to think that God, in the merciful influences of his Spirit on men, would their bodies, and impair their health.

But if it were in multiplied instances (which I do not suppose it is) that persons received a lasting wound to their health byextraordinary religious impressions made upon their minds, yet it is too much for us to determine that God shall never bring an outward calamity, in bestowing a vastly greater spiritual and eternal good. Jacob in doing his duty in wrestling withGod for the blessing, and even at the same time that he received the blessing from God, suffered a great outward calamity from his hand. God gave him the blessing, but sent him away halting on his thigh, and he went lame all his life after. And yet this is not mentioned as if it were any diminution of the great mercy of God to him, when God blessed him, and he received his name Israel, because as a prince he had power with God, and had prevailed.

But, say some, The operations of the Spirit of God are of a benign nature; nothing is of a more kind influence on human nature than the merciful breathings of GodÂ’s own Spirit. But it has been generally supposed and allowed in the church of God, till now, that there is such a thing as being sick of love to Christ, or having the bodily strength weakened by strong and vigorous exercises of love to him. And however kind to human nature the influences of the Spirit of God are, yet nobody doubts but that divine and eternal things, as they may be discovered, would overpower the nature of man in its present weak state; and that therefore the body, in its weakness, is not fitted for the views, and pleasures, and employments of heaven. Were God to discover but a little of that which is seen by saints and angels in heaven, our frail natures would sink under it. Let us rationally consider what we profess to believe of the infinite greatness of divine wrath, divine glory, the divine infinite love and grace in Jesus Christ, and the infinite importance of eternal things; and then how reasonableit is to suppose, that if God a little withdraw the veil, to let light into the soulÂ—and give a view of the great things of another world in their transcendent and infinite greatnessÂ—that human nature, which is as the grass, a shaking leaf, a weak withering flower, should totter under such a discovery! Such a bubble is too weak to bear a weight so vast. Alas! What is man that he should support himself under a view of the awful wrath or infinite glory and love of jehovah! No wonder therefore that it is said, Exodus xxi. 20 Â“No man can see me and live;Â” and, 1 Corinthians xv. 50. Â“Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.Â” That external glory and majesty of Christ which Daniel saw, when Â“there remained nostrength in him, and his comeliness was turned in him into corruption,Â” Dan. x. 6-8. and which the apostle John saw, when he fell at his feet as dead; was but a shadow of that spiritual majesty of Christ which will be manifested in the souls of the saints in another world, and which is sometimes, in a degree, manifested to the soul in this world. And if beholdingthe image of this glory did so overpower human nature, is it unreasonable to suppose that a sight of the spiritual glory itself should have as powerful an effect? The prophet Habakkuk, speaking of the awful manifestations God made of his majesty and wrath, at the Red sea, and in the wilderness, and at mount Sinai, where he gave the law; and of the merciful influence and strong impression God caused it to have upon him, to the end that he might be saved from that wrath, and rest in the day of trouble; says, Hab. iii. 16. Â“When I heard, my belly trembled, my lips quivered at the voice, rottenness entered into my bones. I trembled in myself that I might rest in the day of trouble.Â”. This is an effect similar to what the discovery of the same majesty and wrath has had upon many in these days; and to the same purposes, viz. to give themrest in the day of trouble, and save them from that wrath. The psalmist also speaks of such an effect as I have often on persons under religious affections of late, Psal. cxix. 131.

God is pleased sometimes, in dealing forth spiritual blessings to his people, in some respects to exceed the capacity of the vessel in its present scantiness; so that he not only fills it, but makes their cup to run over; Psal. xxiii. 5.) and pours o

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ut a blessing, sometimes, in such manner and measure that there is not room enough to receive it. (Mal. iii. 10.) He gives them riches more than they can carry away; as he did to Jehoshaphat and his people in a time of great favour, by the word of his prophet Jahaziel in answer to earnest prayer, when the people blessed the Lord in the valley of Berachah, 2 Chron. xx. 25, 26. It has been with the disciples of Christ, for a long season, a time of great emptiness on spiritual accounts. They have gone hungry, and having been toiling in vain, during a dark night with the church of God; as it was with the disciples of old, when they had toiled all night for something to eat, and caught nothing, Luke v. 5. And John xxi. 3. Butnow, the morning being come, Jesus appears to his disciples, and 369 takes a compassionate notice of their wants, andsays to them, Children, have ye any meat? And gives some of them such abundance of food, that they are not able to draw their net; yea, so that their vessel is overloaded, and begins to sink; as it was with the disciples of old, Luke v. 6,7. and John xxi. 6.

We cannot determine that God never shall give any person so much of a discovery of himself, not only as to weaken their bodies, but to take away their lives. It is supposed by very learned and judicious divines, that MosesÂ’ life was taken away after this manner; and this has also been supposed to be the case with some other saints. Yea, I do not see any solid sure grounds any have to determine, that God shall never make strong impressions on the mind by his Spirit, that shall be an occasion of so impairing the frame of the body, that persons shall be deprived of the use of reason. As I said before, it is too much for us to determine that God will not bring an outward calamity in bestowing spiritual and eternal blessings; so it is too much for us to determine how great an outward calamity he will bring. If God gives a great increase of discoveries of himself, and of love to him, the benefit is infinitely greater than the calamity, thought the life should presently after be taken away; yea, though the soul should lie for years in a deep sleep, and then be taken to heaven: or, which is much the same thing, if it be deprived of the use of its faculties, and be as inactive and unserviceable, as if it lay in a deep sleep for some years, and then should pass into glory. We cannot determine how great a calamity distraction is, considered with all its consequences; and all that might have been consequent if the distraction had not happened; nor indeed whether, thus considered, it be any calamity at all, or whether it be not a mercy, by preventing some great sin, &c. It is a great fault in us to limit a sovereign all-wise God, whose judgements are a great deep, and his ways past finding out,where he has not limited himself, and in things concerning which he has not told us what his way shall be. It is remarkable, considering in what multitudes of instances, and to how great a degree, the frame of the body has been overpowered of late, that personsÂ’ lives have, notwithstanding, been preserved. The instances of those who have been deprived of reason, have been very few, and those, perhaps all of them, persons under the peculiar disadvantage of a weak, vaporous habit of body. A merciful and careful divine hand is very manifest in it that the ship, though in so many instances it has begun to sink, yet has been upheld, and has not totally sunk. The instances of such as have been deprived of reason are so few, that certainly they are not enough to cause alarm, as though this work was like to be of baneful influence; unless we are disposed to gather up all that we can to darken it, and set it forth in frightful colours.

There is one particular kind of exercise by which many have been overpowered, that has been especially stumbling to some: and that is, their deep distress for the souls of others. I am sorry that any put us to the trouble of defending such a thing as this. It seems like mere trifling in so plain a case, to enter into a particular debate, in order to determine whether there be any thing in the greatness and importance of the case that will bear a proportion to the greatness of the concernmanifested. Men may be allowed, from no higher a principle than common humanity, to be very deeply concerned, and greatly exercised in mind, at seeing others in great danger of, or being burnt up in a house on fire. And it will be allowed to be equally reasonable, if they saw them in danger of a calamity ten times greater, to be still much more concerned; and so much more still, if the calamity was still vastly greater. Why then should it be thought unreasonable, and looked on with a suspicious eye, as if it must come from some bad cause, when persons are extremely concerned at seeing othersin a very great danger of suffering the fierceness and wrath of almighty God to all eternity? Besides, it will doubtless be allowed that those who have great degrees of the Spirit of God, which is a Spirit of love, may well be supposed to have vastly more love and compassion to their fellow-creatures, than those who are influenced only by common humanity. Why should it be thought strange that those who are full of the Spirit of Christ should be proportionally, in their love to souls, like to Christ? He had so strong a love and concern for them, as to be willing to drink the dregs of the cup of GodÂ’s fury; and, at the same time that he offered up his blood for souls, he offered up also, as their high priest, strong crying and tears, with an extreme agony, wherein the soul of Christ was as it were in travail for the souls of the elect; and therefore, in saving them, he is said to see of the travail of his soul. As such a spirit of love and concern for souls was the spirit of Christ, so it is that of the church. Therefore the church, in desiring and seeking that Christ might be brought forth in the soulsof men, is represented, Rev. xii. as a Â“woman crying, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.Â” The spirit of those who have been in distress for the souls of others, so far as I can discern, seems not to be different from that of the apostle, who travailed for souls, and was ready to wish himself accursed from Christ, for others; and that of the psalmist, Psal. cxix. 53. Â“Horror hath taken hold upon me, because of the wicked that forsake thy law.Â” and Psal. cxix 136. Â“Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law.Â” And that of the prophet Jeremiah, Jer. iv. 19. Â“My bowels! My bowels! I am pained at my very heart! My heart maketh a noise in me! I cannot hold my peace! Because thou

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hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war!Â” And so chap. ix. 1. and xiii 17. xiv. 17. and Isa. xvii.4. We read of Mordecai, when he saw his people in danger of being destroyed with a temporal destruction, that Â“he rent his clothes, and put on sackcloth with ashes, and went out in the midst of the city, and cried with a loud and bitter cry.Â” And why then should persons be thought to be distracted, when they cannot forbear crying out, at the consideration of the misery of those who are going to eternal destruction.

III. Another thing that some make their rule to judge of this work by, instead of the Holy Scriptures, is history, or former observation. Herein they err two ways:

First, If there be any thing extraordinary in the circumstances of this work, which was not observed in former times, theirs is a rule to reject this work which God has not given them, and they limit God, where he has not limited himself. And this is especially unreasonable in this case: for whosoever has well weighed the wonderful and mysterious methods of divine wisdom in carrying on the work of redemption, from the first promise of the seed of woman to this timeÂ—may easily observe that it has all along been GodÂ’s manner to open new scenes, and to bring forth to view things new and wonderfulÂ—such as eye had not seen, nor ear heard, nor entered into the heart of man or angelsÂ—to the astonishment of heaven and earth, not only in the revelations he makes of his mind and will, but also in the works of his hands. As the old creation was carried on through six days, and appeared all complete, settled in a state of rest, on the seventh; so the newcreation, which is immensely the greatest and most glorious work, is carried on in a gradual progress, from the fall of man, to the consummation of all things. And as in the progress of the old creation, there were still new things accomplished;new wonders every day in the sight of the angels, the spectators of that workÂ—while those morning-stars sang together, new scenes were opened, till the whole was finishedÂ—so it is in the progress of the new creation. So that that promise, Isa. lxiv. 4. Â“For since the beginning of the world, men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eyeseen, O God, besides thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.Â” Though it had a glorious fulfillment in the days of Christ and his apostles, as the words are applied, 1 Cor. ii. 9. yet it always remains to be fulfilled, in things that are yet behind, till the new creation is finished, at ChristÂ’s delivering up the kingdom to the Father. And we live in those latter days, wherein we may be especially warranted to expect that things will be accomplished, concerning which it will be said, Who hath heard such a thing? Who hath seen such things?

Besides, those things in this work, which have been chiefly complained of as new, are not so new as has been generallyimagined. Though they have been much 370 more frequently lately, in proportion to the uncommon degree, extent, and swiftness, and other extraordinary circumstances, of the work, yet they are not new in their kind; but are of the same nature as have been found, and well approved of, in the church of God before, from time to time.Â—We have a remarkable instance in Mr. Bolton, that noted minister of the church of England, who after being awakened by the preaching of the famous Mr. Perkins, minister of Christ in the university of Cambridge, was the subject of such terrors as threw him to the ground, and caused him to roar with anguish. The pangs of the new birth in him were such, that he lay pale and without sense, like one dead; as we have an account in the fulfillment of the Scripture, the 5th edition, p. 103, 104. We have an account in the same page of another, whose comforts under the sun-shine of GodÂ’s presence were so great, that he could not forbear crying out in a transport, and expressing in exclamations the great sense he had of forgiving mercy and his assurance of GodÂ’s love. And we have a remarkable instance, in the life of Mr. George Trosse, written by himself, (who, of a notoriously vicious profligate liver, became an eminent saint and minister of the gospel,) of terrors occasioned by awakenings of conscience, so overpowering the body, as to deprive him, for some time, of the use of reason.

Yea, such extraordinary external effects of inward impressions have not been found merely in here and there a single person, but there have been times wherein many have been thus affected, in some particular parts of the church of God; and such effects have appeared in congregations, in many at once. So it was in the year 1625, in the west of Scotland, ona time of great outpouring of the Spirit of God. It was then a frequent thing for many to be so extraordinarily seized with terror in hearing the word, by the Spirit of God convincing them of sin, that they fell down, and were carried out of the church, and they afterwards proved most solid and lively Christians; as the author of the Fulfilling of the Scripture informs us, p. 185. The same author in the preceding page, informs of many in France that were so wonderfully affected with the preaching of the gospel, in the time of those famous divines Farel and Viret, that for a time they could not follow their secular business: and, p. 186. of many in Ireland, in a time of great outpouring of the Spirit there, in the year 1628, that were so filled with divine comforts, and a sense of God, that they made but little use of either meat, drink, or sleep; and professed that they did not feel the need thereof. The same author gives a similar account of Mrs. Katharine Brettergh, of Lancashire, in England, (p. 391, 392.) After great distress, which very much affected her body, God did so break in upon her mind with light and discoveries of himself, that she was forced to burst out, crying, Â“O the joys, the joys, the joys that I feel in my soul! O they be wonderful, they be wonderful! The place where I now am is sweet and pleasant! How comfortableis the sweetness I feel, that delights my soul! The taste is precious; do you not feel it? Oh so sweet as it is!Â” And at other times, Â“O my sweet Saviour, shall I be one with thee, as thou art one with the Father? And dost thou so love me that

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am but dust, to make me partaker of glory with Christ? O how wonderful is thy love! And O that my tongue and heart were able to sound forth they praises as I ought!Â” At another time she burst forth thus; Â“Yea, Lord, I feel thy mercy, and I am assured of thy love! And so certain am I thereof, as thou art that God of truth; even so certainly do I know myself to be thine, O Lord my God; and this my soul knoweth right well!Â” Which last words she again doubled. To a grave minister, one Mr. Harrison, then with her, she said, Â“My soul hath been compassed with the terrors of death, the sorrows of hellwere upon me, and a wilderness of woe was in me; but blessed, blessed, blessed be the Lord my God! He hath brought me to a place of rest, even to the sweet running waters of life. The way I now go in is a sweet and easy way, strewed with flowers; he hath brought me into a place more sweet than the Garden of Eden, O the joy, the joy, the delights and joy that I feel! O how wonderful!Â”

Great outcries under awakenings were more frequently heard of in former times in the country than they have been of late, as some aged persons now living do testify: particularly I think fit here to insert a testimony of my honoured father, of what he remembers formerly to have heard.Â—Â“I well remember that one Mr. Alexander Allen, a Scots gentleman of good credit, that dwelt formerly in this town, showed me a letter that came from Scotland, that gave an account of a sermon preached in the city of Edinburgh (as I remember) in the time of the sitting of the general assembly of divines in that kingdom, that so affected the people, that there was a great and loud cry made throughout the assembly. I have also been credibly informed, and how often I cannot now say, that it was a common thing, when the famous Mr. John Rogers of Dedham, in England, was preaching, for some of his hearers to cry out; and, by what I have heard, I conclude that it wasusual for many that heard that very awakening and rousing preacher of GodÂ’s word, to make a great cry in the congregation.

(Signed)

sorry that the artical was so long

brothers dont get me wrong ,im sickend to the core with tears at was is happing in the churches today ,,regaring the unholy demonic slaing in the spirit

but i wont thrown the baby out with the bath water or should i say the bride out with the buble bath

im open to a real experance decribed by john edwards

what are you thoughts

Re: J.E. - posted by savannah, on: 2012/1/25 19:50

Jonathan Edwards would denounce both the theology and the manifestations of this present "slain in the spirit" movement,and would not give anyone any reason to believe the Holy Spirit of the One True and Living God is responsible, or that such activity is to be attributed to Him(the Spirit of Truth).

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he will testify concerning me. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because itseeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and will be in you. John 14:17 But, when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all the truth: for he will not speak from himself; but whatever he shall hear, that will he speak: and he will show you things to come. John 16:13

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Re: Being Slain in the Spirit by Bill Niland - posted by learjet, on: 2012/1/25 21:36I'd have to agree with the folks who have commented on this, I would err that it's fleshly rather than the jump toconclusions about demon possession based on some Hindu occultism trash.

Why would I do that? Well, because of what Jesus said:

Quote:-------------------------Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! -Matthew 7:9-11-------------------------

Someone comes forward for prayer (like deliverance from anger, as was already mentioned) and the Lord gives him a snake(demon)? I'm sorry that is not how my Lord would do things.

I honestly can't see the Lord on the throne saying "Hey, Jesus, do you see that guy over there at the Assembly of God inYourtown, USA? He's there asking for deliverance from anger, send him a demon, he should have known better..."

Does that even remotely sound like something that a loving Father would do?

Does it happen where people manifest demons, oh yeah! But the sad part of this is people honestly don't have a revelation on the difference. Satan will bring people in to discredit EVERY move of God, read Acts 16:16-18

Quote:-------------------------Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future.She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, Â“These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.Â” She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, Â“In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!Â” At that moment the spirit left her. -------------------------

Personally, I believe it took Paul awhile to figure out what the motivation was in this whole incident (in Brainerd's diaries he does the same thing), and then when he recognized that it was the devil trying to discredit the work he cast the demon out. In good faith I can't imagine that Paul would let some kooky demon possessed lady follow him around while at thesame time having a full revelation that the woman was possessed.

Look at what the woman was shouting:

Quote:-------------------------Â“These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.Â”-------------------------

That's a good thing, and truthful thing isn't it? Well no...

Sadly, the incidents that I've personally witnessed have been almost identical to this one. Both of them were woman screaming at the top of their lungs bringing disgrace to what the Lord was trying to do there, both times the ushers looked at the people and didn't recognize what was happening. I'm not judging them, I'm just telling you what I witnessed.

To be sure this is what killed the Toronto revival, no one had the wisdom to cast the spirits out of the people barking like dogs. Most revivals start out as moves of God but then after the devil brings in demon possessed folks to discredit the work it causes division and 'good bye revival'. David Brainerd is a good example of watching out for people getting overly emotional, I say OVERLY very specifically here because he watched and prayed about it according to his diary, constantly. I also say 'overly' because the Lord genuinely touches people's emotions and I would hate to discern incorrectly and be a stumbling block to a person for the rest of their lives, that would break my heart.

Whoever wrote this article couldn't care less about the fine line that has to be walked in this respect, he's more concerne

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d about 'being right' than understanding the consequences of getting it wrong (the possibility that you are 'casting out' and rebuking a person who is genuinely being touched by God thus offending them for the rest of their life). Jesus said that 'it would be better to have a millstone around your neck and be cast into the sea than cause a person to stumble'.

When the Lord says you wold essentially be better off KILLING YOURSELF than being a stumbling block it's a VERY strong statement, in fact one of the strongest that I can think of Him making.

There are good churches that I don't go to anymore because there is one or two people that have to pray louder than thewhole congregation causing me to not be able to concentrate enough to get in the Lord's presence (it's that loud). I can imagine if I'm having a hard time then I know others are, personally I think it's demonically motivated, just my opinion. The Lord isn't deaf, He hears my thoughts, I don't have to yell and scream all the time to get His attention (although there isa time for shouting!). If He hears an idle word how much more does He hear a whispered or spoken prayer offered up inprayer? He's AWESOME IN POWER!!

I've read countless times where saints like Whitfield, Wesley left a mass of people crying on the ground when they were done preaching. I'm not going to get into the falling forward and backward debate, to me it's a foolish one.

We all know the false folks and I won't go into them here.

Two-cents added :-)

Re: Being Slain in the Spirit by Bill Niland - posted by Lysa (), on: 2012/1/25 22:28

Quote:-------------------------EverestoSama wrote:Thanks for posting this. Sadly some/many will still defend this based on experience and emotion instead of the on the Word, but it needs to be said none the less.-------------------------

Just because the Bible is silent on an issue doesnÂ’t automatically make it demonic.

Quote:-------------------------learjet wrote:Satan will bring people in to discredit EVERY move of God-------------------------

One thing to remember is that satan doesnÂ’t waste time imitating something fake but he will mess with the real.

Quote:-------------------------deadn wrote:I figure that if it doesn't produce good stuff than throw it out. -------------------------

How do you figure that it doesnÂ’t produce Â“good stuff?Â”

Quote:-------------------------deadn wrote:Matter o fact I figure if it happens it should be happening in the prayer closet rather than within the church.-------------------------

Who says it hasnÂ’t happened in a personÂ’s prayer closet?! IÂ’m a witness, it has!

God bless,Lisa

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Re: , on: 2012/1/26 1:46

Quote:-------------------------Just because the Bible is silent on an issue doesnÂ’t automatically make it demonic.-------------------------

What about Paul's admonition in 1 Cor 4:6 not to exceed what is written?

Re: - posted by sonofthunder (), on: 2012/1/26 1:57Of a truth, people are gullible because they seek "experiences" in god!And because a minister or a pastor introduces it or brings it into the house of god - that suppossed to somehow "sanction it" and "sanctify it"As holy. Experiencial christianity is one of the reasons - if not the main reason for seeking out this modern - day church phenomena.

The bible says to prove all things...Hold on to it ...if its good !!Approve things ...that are excellent. And this ...god is not the originator of confusion.

Brothers and sisters those are some good starting points in making your own spiritual diagnosis, and in reaching your own conclusions, to determine wether it is good or bad.

And Because "slain" is primarily a manifestion and a spiritual phenomena - and not so much (doctrinal). It can get a bit tricky (no pun intended) And notice the one common denominator of them that have had the slain encounter? the experiences are usually all "subjective" ones. Meaning - we are relying on the people who have had the experiences to determine wether it is for us or not.. Or wether we judge it to be of god or not. As i said It gets tricky.

Always remember we should compare apples with apples when we mak these determinations. We thus compare spiritual things with spiritual things.

I try to live by that spiritual motto...and principal.

Satan comes as an angel of light to decieve.

He never blows a trumpet...to alert you of his manouvers.Or to announce he is coming. (seldom)He is way smarter than that !!!

I am all for legitimate encounters and experiences in the lord - dont get me wrong saints. However call to remembrance how easy it is to get it horribly wrong when the samiritans in acts chapter eight thought what they were witnessing day in and day out... was the great power of god. When in effect (truth be known) it was sorcery & bewitchment. Furthermore simon was deemed by almost the entire community to be a great man-of-god. Mmm (amazing) beguilement taking place there - and all in the name and form of religion. Completing going unoticed and under the radar - until the whistle blower philip. Mmm amazing though that virtually no one cottoned on - as to what was really going on. hey??

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First off, I find it a tad bit ironic that the man (I'm talking about you John), who posted this crazy article has cried for MONTHS for help from all his demons to suddenly draw the line at being slain in the Spirit.

My response about being slain in the Spirit is that it isnÂ’t being Â“knocked outÂ” or losing consciousness and therefore,not knowing whatÂ’s going on around you. In John 20.22, it doesnÂ’t directly state that the disciples did fall down after Jesus breathed on them and it doesnÂ’t state they didnÂ’t either. It also says in John 21.25 that of all the things that Jesus did that the world itself couldnÂ’t contain the books should be all be written down. Knowing that, how can most of you even take the sides that you take on SI?

I see a dangerous precedence (as usual between the two camps on SI), that lumps everyone together by saying that if anyone is slain in the Spirit they are Â“seekingÂ” emotional experiences. I daresay if youÂ’ve ever shed a tear because youÂ’ve felt the presence of the Lord, then you too sought an emotional experience.

As for 1 Cor 4.6, they didnÂ’t even have the Bible as we have come to know it today, so what is Paul talking about here?

And I realize that most of you are context-only people and we will never see eye-to-eye on this. This is my last post on this because this is like every other topic on SI, tongues, women preaching, this disagreement could on literally forever.

God bless you all,Lisa

Re: , on: 2012/1/26 9:04

Quote:-------------------------As for 1 Cor 4.6, they didnÂ’t even have the Bible as we have come to know it today, so what is Paul talking about here?-------------------------

They had all of the Old Testament which Paul reaffirmed was correct for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16), and they also had what he had written himself to them, very many times speaking direct commandments from the Lord. None of which contained being "slain in the Spirit". And no matter what exactly he was referringto as "what was written", it still doesn't change the fact that he said to not go beyond it. And everything that had been written up to that point (and since for that matter) does not confirm it.

I'll go with Paul's instruction on this one. And like Krispy said, I think it's better to err on the side of caution regarding matters such as these. Especially in these days.

Re: - posted by Lysa (), on: 2012/1/26 9:15

Are you sure there is no reference to priests in the holy of holies?? I'm just asking. I'm over and out!! hehe

God bless you,Lisa

Re: , on: 2012/1/26 9:15

Quote:-------------------------it doesnÂ’t directly state that the disciples did fall down after Jesus breathed on them and it doesnÂ’t state they didnÂ’t either. It alsosays in John 21.25 that of all the things that Jesus did that the world itself couldnÂ’t contain the books should be all be written down. Knowing that, how can most of you even take the sides that you take on SI?-------------------------

Hmmm... thats kinda of a dangerous way of looking at things, sister. "It never says it didnt happen" has never been an a

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cceptable form of Bible interpretation down thru church history. (I know some here scoff at those who study church history, but some very important precidences can be drawn from it.) This type of reverse-deductive reasoning leaves the door open to all kinds of speculation and crazy ideas.

It never says that Jesus didnt paint Himself purple and play black jack in Vegas... therefore it's ok for us to do that.

I know thats extreme, but we've seen some extreme stuff in cults and things like that. You get what I am saying.

Krispy

Re: , on: 2012/1/26 9:20Which way were they falling? On their face in reverence? Or losing control and toppling over backwards in the same way it was shown happening to the heathen as mentioned in the article, or the same way that the Kundalini cults practice it?

Over here in Asia they have all sorts of manifestations of that sort. Looks the same. They just have a different name for it.

Re: Being Slain in the Spirit by Bill Niland, on: 2012/1/26 9:28"There is no Biblical evidence showing one being slain the spirit."

Possibly not, but there is evidence that something did happen or a man would not have offered money at one time.

Lets look at it for a moment. Please don't rush through reading it, read it as if your speaking to a crowd, and not as an auctioneer.

Acts 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Note: So much for the teaching of getting the Holy Ghost at the time of just believing eh?)

Acts 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered themmoney,

This is the question that I will present to everyone here,

What did Simon see that caused him to want to offer money to buy the Holy Ghost from the Apostles?

You have to remember, this man was a sorcerer. He was a conjurer of tricks. He would have used incantations and body jerking and all kinds of wizardery to make people believe that he was the "great power of God". He did all of these things, but there was something that he was seeing when the Apostles laid their hands on the people that caused him to wa

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nt to add this trick to his magic show.

Folks, what we don't understand, lets leave it to God.

Bible4life, it would be best to leave this subject alone for if it is of God, you'll only be fighting against God. When the days of Revival come that will shake the foundation of the world, your going to see everything that you spoke against come to pass. People that spoke against the power of God through miracles and signs and working through and in His people will see these things and if your hardened to them now, you'll fight against what God will be doing then.

One of the signs that Tommy Hicks gave in the vision of the revival that is coming said that those that "should" have known better to receive the outpouring put up their umbrellas because they thought that this move was not of God.

Re: , on: 2012/1/26 9:32The Holy Spirit's main objective is to point toward Christ... not bring attention to man with all sorts of weird out of control "manifestations". Especially considering that one of the fruits of the Spirit is SELF CONTROL.

And what was one of the qualifications for church leadership that is mentioned over and over again in the books of Timothy and Titus? SELF CONTROL.

So... while being "slain in the Spirit" is never once mentioned in all of scripture, SELF CONTROL is mentioned multiple times.

This is not brain surgery, folks.

Krispy

Re: , on: 2012/1/26 9:36

Quote:-------------------------So... while being "slain in the Spirit" is never once mentioned in all of scripture, SELF CONTROL is mentioned multiple times.

This is not brain surgery, folks.-------------------------

Well said.


Quote:-------------------------EverestoSama:Which way were they falling? On their face in reverence? Or losing control and toppling over backwards in the same way it was shown happening to the heathen as mentioned in the article, or the same way that the Kundalini cults practice it? -------------------------

You stated that (there were no Biblical references) and that you would go with PaulÂ’s instruction on this one, so now you are saying that there are indeed O.T. references to being slain in the Spirit??

(Since there are references it's) Interesting that now youÂ’ve changed your argument to how they fell. Hmmmm.

God bless,Lisa

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edited for clarity

Re: , on: 2012/1/26 9:58"not bring attention to man with all sorts of weird out of control "manifestations". Especially considering that one of the fruits of the Spirit is SELF CONTROL."

"Out of control" manifestations.

You've hit it on the nail brother. That is how non Pentecostals see those that have these manifestations whether controlled or not, as.

The "self control" does not apply here because as the fruit is of the same source so is the manifestation. Self Control is not really a good word to use, it's the newer versions use of the word Temperance but it's not self control at all. Temperance is a fruit of the Spirit not my spirit, but His Spirit, He is the one tempering me, not me it. The verse that comes to mindfor that is,

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: SO THAT YOU CANNOT DO THE THINGS THAT YOU WOULD.

I know that to be true in my own life. When I was doing something that was harmful to my spirit, the Lord put in place a marker, "this far and no further". There was such a fear to go beyond that line. After many years I have learned to love Him for those restraints. But they were not my restraints, they were His, as if tying me down on an altar to keep me in place so He can perform His sacrifice.

Non Pentecostals can't get beyond their own mind. Smith Wigglesworth was one of them. A Baptist minister who arguedtooth and nail against speaking in tongues and that is all he argued against was the manifestations. He was hungry for the Holy Spirit you see and he couldn't wrap his mind around this manifestation, and he really shouldn't have been. We Pentecostals love to share and in sharing get so many different ways of how each person received the Holy Spirit that people get overloaded as it were with varied information that causes problems for people when they should just seek Jesus.In the end for me, I just sought Jesus. For Wigglesworth, in the end, he just sought Jesus and God filled him and he did speak in tongues mind you but he was able to get his mind wrapped around to just seeking Jesus and no one will ever go wrong in doing that because God is not going to give someone a demon if they are seeking Him with a sincere heart for the Holy Ghost.

Non Pentecostals, I mean anyone or denomination that doesn't agree with the Holy Spirit and it's gifts working through His body.

Re: , on: 2012/1/26 10:17As for being "Slain in the Spirit".

As a Pentecostal by experience I have experienced this only once in my life.

I wasn't looking for an emotional high, I went up to the altar and the minister turned to me and told me that I was "called".I thought, "Okay, thats nice" and my knees gave out on me and I fell flat on my back. There are always catchers behind you to make sure that you don't hit the floor hard, but it's not always necessary, however, it's nice to know that there is.

In Carter Conlon's testimony of being filled with the Spirit he didn't like the idea of anyone behind him and told the person to move away and he did. But when God filled him he fell flat on his back, SMASH! But that didn't matter, like all thingsfrom God, even God looks after that as well, he was speaking in tongues as the joy of the Lord was filling his soul.

However, I do remember a testimony of a sister who was "dancing in the Spirit" and she hit her leg and broke it and end

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ed up in the hospital. Many people in the Church said it wasn't of God, but God has ways of doing things. She witnessedto two families while she was in the hospital and they all got saved. God sent Joseph into a prison and resurrects him to be a saviour for his people. At the time when Joseph was in prison many could have said, "he'll never be used". God said, "I wound and heal, I kill and make alive".

Re: , on: 2012/1/26 10:30

Quote:-------------------------Interesting that now youÂ’ve changed your argument to how they fell. Hmmmm. -------------------------

Not even slightly. I simply reiterated what the original article said. It mentioned the same thing. There still stands no reference that speaks of this toppling over backwards under the power of God except for when Jesus confirmed Himself to the guards who came to seize Him, and they were knocked over backwards (as a judgement). They also were not in control of themselves. I'd personally not want to be in their company.

One is in response to God's holiness, putting their face to the ground in reverence. The other is being out of control of one's self, and toppling over under some sort of power or influence. Krispy already mentioned this. His posts were good. Remember, no matter what experience anyone has had, the Bible clearly states one of the fruits of the Spirit to be self control. No way around that fact.


Approved,

Thank you for your voice of reason. I have had the same experience with the Holy Spirit.

God bless you,Lisa

Re: , on: 2012/1/26 11:38"Or losing control and toppling over backwards in the same way it was shown happening to the heathen as mentioned inthe article, or the same way that the Kundalini cults practice it?"

I suppose when Jesus said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood,ye have no life in you, is not heathen?

Oh we know NOW what He is saying, but lets put ourselves back there, we'd question Jesus and would have fallen away from following Him for speaking blasphemy for the drinking of blood is forbidden.

Re: , on: 2012/1/26 11:44Approved,

I'm sorry but I really can't see where you're going with that. I mean, I get what you said, but I'm struggling to see the relevance in context of what we're saying.

Is one of the fruits of the Spirit self control, or is it not? Are those who are falling over backwards in control of this action, or are they not? Does the Bible lay out that this in particular is a work of the Spirit, or does it not?

These are all terribly simple questions that either a "yes" or a "no" should suffice for.

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Quote:-------------------------EverestoSama:Is one of the fruits of the Spirit self control, or is it not? -------------------------

Self control and being slain in the Spirit are not polar opposites as you have people to believe.

Quote:-------------------------EverestoSama:These are all terribly simple questions that either a "yes" or a "no" should suffice for.-------------------------

Oh really? Is being slain in the Spirit represented anywhere in the Bible? A simple "yes" or no should suffice.

God bless you brother,Lisa

Re: - posted by murrcolr (), on: 2012/1/26 14:40Slain in the Holy Spirit is it Biblical?

Lets ask John the Apostle in the opening verses of the book of Revelation and see what he thinks when he found himself suddenly confronted with the holiness of God's presence.

Let's ask Jesus, who, after agonizing in prayer in the garden just before he was arrested to be crucified, was approached by a band of armed men. Jesus spoke and asked them a simple question and they all hit the deck as if a hurricane justblew in.

Then we have Paul. He was knocked plum off his horse and went stone blind from God's presence.

John Wesley reported in his writings that often 20,000 people would attend the outdoor meetings. Many would climb the trees so they could get a better view of Wesley as he preached. Wesley requested they would come down out of the trees because people were falling to the ground as he preached due to the presence and power of God's Word.

Do I believe people can be slain by the presence and power of God? If you don't,then you must be one of those who believe all of this died out hundreds of years ago and that God does not manifest Himself in such ways any longer.

My fear is that today we have limited God by our unbelief.

Re: - posted by brothagary, on: 2012/1/26 14:43whaT DO we do about the experances of weasly whitfiel ,edwards ,,and postaive sermons about being slayed in the spirit ,like paris reiad head

what about when peter fell into a trance whn he was praying

what about all the other tesamonys of old revivles that speak postivly about a holy trance that befell some of the people who were preached too

do we ignor all of that

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Re: - posted by brothagary, on: 2012/1/26 14:49im not a pentacostel so im not pushing the idea at all

but im more reformed

i do however highly regard the testamony edwards and weasly ,,,who seemed to think it was normale in somes cases that people lost there body strenght

maby we can do a studdy on more of the great awkening to see what else is said about this ,,what about finney

what about the revivle that duncan camble was invovled in

what about the christan and missionary alliance ,,what have they experanced regarding this matter

Re: , on: 2012/1/26 15:01Love ya broÂ… you know I doÂ… but you got to run spell check sometimes. I cant read half of that.

The CMA, as far as I know, does not promote this type of "manifestation". (I am very closely tied with the CMA)

Krispy

Re: - posted by learjet, on: 2012/1/26 15:12

Quote:-------------------------It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;

So that the priests COULD NOT STAND TO MINISTER by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God. -2 Chronicles 5:13-14-------------------------

There you have it :-)

Same thing Wesley and Whitfield said, in New Testament times. For those of you who 'can't find it in the Bible' it's right there. To me it's not a extra-biblical to understand when the glory of the Lord fills the 'new temple'(ourselves) the same thing could happen.

I would still agree that there's plenty of flesh to go around though. :-)

Re: - posted by DEADn (), on: 2012/1/26 16:01

Quote:-------------------------

Quote:-------------------------deadn wrote:I figure that if it doesn't produce good stuff than throw it out. -------------------------

How do you figure that it doesnÂ’t produce Â“good stuff?Â”

Quote:

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-------------------------deadn wrote:Matter o fact I figure if it happens it should be happening in the prayer closet rather than within the church.-------------------------

Who says it hasnÂ’t happened in a personÂ’s prayer closet?! IÂ’m a witness, it has!

God bless,Lisa

Quote:-------------------------

You misunderstand me. I am not knocking this 'thing' as a whole. I do think those in pentecostal circles get carried away with it. IF 'slain in the Spirit' happens that often then I would think more people would be getting closer to God as a result and a revival would break out. After all, Pentecostals teach that the reason why this happens is that God overwhelms a person. Well, this should mean it drives a person to repentance and weep over their sin. Most times that I see it people are down as if asleep for a given period of time and then they get up again. I don't ever hear alot of God encounters through it.

I think things like this probably happen more in the prayer closet where a person is more serious about God rather than feeling as if they are being watched.

Re: , on: 2012/1/26 19:38

Quote:-------------------------Oh really? Is being slain in the Spirit represented anywhere in the Bible? A simple "yes" or no should suffice. -------------------------

As being defended here and presented in hyper-pentacostal circles?

"No".

And the verse in 2 Chronicles says nothing of the priests toppling over. In fact the Hebrew word עמד, doesn't only mean to stand as in stand up, it has other meanings as well, which can be seen if you look at that verse inother translations or if you just translate the Hebrew word itself. It can also be translated as "were unable to/could not continue because of the cloud".

Again, it says nothing of them toppling over on their back, and being in some sort of trance like state.

Re: , on: 2012/1/26 20:13"Is one of the fruits of the Spirit self control, or is it not?

Self control no!

Self control denotes ME doing the controlling.

The Fruit of the Spirit is God's fruit, not mine.

The same as the Gifts of the Spirit, they are not mine, they are His.

The Fruit and the Gifts operate by His Spirit working through us, not we it.

Therefore it's His Self Control or Temperance expressing Himself out by His Spirit.

As for falling backward or forward, I have to say, these questions remind me of the Pharisees asking the man whom Jesus put mud on his eyes and went to be washed and came again seeing, the Pharisees asking the same questions over and over, "how did He do it". They couldn't get beyond the application to which God used, while everyone around them was worshipping God, they were scratching their heads. They couldn't see the Holy Spirit working.

The same thing is happening here. When people get a touch from God, instead of seeing the blessing of what these people have gotten, the doubters are standing around demanding to know where it is in the bible about slaying in the Spirit.

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Where was it in scripture in the time of Jesus that a man took mud and put it on a blind man's eyes and that man came back seeing?

Can't God do something new? Are we that stiff necked?

I know people that didn't have two nickels to rub together praying over the only jalopy they owned and asking God to keep the thing running and God would.

That car is not in the bible, but faith is and it says that if we ask ANYTHING in His name.

When God touches us by the supernatural hand of God, you can't stay standing, the power of God causes one to fall down,, whether forward or backward it makes no never mind, it's not the falling, it's not in what happens that way, it's what God is doing in them. That is what people are missing.

And further, I find it a complete waste of time talking about these subjects to those that reject that God can speak through His people by the gifts of the Spirit and work through His people by the power of God. To those people that reject it, they demand order, they demand these things yet don't experience any of them in their own lives nor in their congregation.Why talk about having those things decently and in order when they don't believe in the thing they require to be in order?Sheer ludicrous.

Re: - posted by learjet, on: 2012/1/26 20:52Hi EverestoSama,

She asked you a simple question "is it in the bible" not "is it in the bible as presented in hyper-pentacostal circles", your changing of the question back and forth is very telling. If you don't know the answer just say 'I don't know', no crime there. Why is it when given evidence of it 'in the bible' you go to the Hebrew to find a definition that fits your agenda rather than looking at the scripture as its written?

The verse in 2 Chronicles 5 is in context and means exactly what it says. The priest COULD NOT STAND to do their duties because of the glory of the Lord. Since there is no description of which way they 'fell over' or the positions of their bodies on the ground, we'll never know until we get to glory. I guess there's 50/50 chance that they were on their fronts or backs though when you look at the statistics associated with it (heads or tails)... LOL, I kill me :-)

Just because some kook on the television abuses something doesn't mean that it's not an legitimate manifestation backed up in the scripture. As I've pointed out twice and others have pointed out as well, there are documented accounts of this happening in Wesley's, Whitfield's and John Wesley Redfield's ministries, these men weren't kooks. Wonder if thesefolks were all on their fronts or backs? There was 1800 of them at one of John Wesley Redfield's meetings.

Re: , on: 2012/1/26 21:06

Quote:-------------------------She asked you a simple question "is it in the bible" not "is it in the bible as presented in hyper-pentacostal circles", your changing of the question back and forth is very telling. If you don't know the answer just say 'I don't know', no crime there. Why is it when given evidence of it 'in the bible' you go to the Hebrew to find a definition that fits your agenda rather than looking at the scripture as its written? -------------------------

What version are you looking at? Not all versions translate it that way. I would hope you would go to the original language if a few translations state it differently.

And I didn't change her question. I was defining the question by replying in that fashion. I mean, Ananaias and Sapphira were slain in the Spirit (which is the only kind I do believe in), yet that's not what we're talking about. It's best we're clear on what's being said, lest we're saying two separate things. And I'll stand on my initial point. The type of being "slain in the Spirit" that is being defended cannot be found in Scripture spoken of in a positive light.

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And the position is rather important. Falling forward always seems to denote (when mentioned in places like Daniel and Revelation) that it's submitting ones self in reverence, humbling yourself and being unworthy to hold your head high or even stand in the presence of God. Notice that all the references given to those being knocked over backwards (Paul being thrown off of his horse, the soldiers being repelled backwards at Jesus's voice, men being knocked over when coming to listen to Wesley and Redfield, etc.) were against the UNGODLY and UNREGENERATE, not towards the children ofGod. Very telling if anything.

The other position denotes being overcome with something, losing ones balance, and then toppling over. I find that Scripture's lack of mentioning this to be highly suspicious. And to say that "cars, toasters and microwaves aren't in the Bible" is a straw man argument that holds no bearing contextually in what's being said.

Nonetheless, I guess I've said all I can say. God bless, those who read this thread.

Re: , on: 2012/1/26 22:46"And to say that "cars, toasters and microwaves aren't in the Bible" is a straw man argument that holds no bearing contextually in what's being said."

In the context that I was writing it, it is very much contextual. Those who are of likemindedness will completely understand what I was saying and it's to them that I address it.

"And the position is rather important. Falling forward always seems to denote (when mentioned in places like Daniel and Revelation) that it's submitting ones self in reverence, humbling yourself and being unworthy to hold your head high or even stand in the presence of God."

It's unimportant because it doesn't matter what position the flesh is in, it's how the heart is postitioned. You and I can stand on our heads and or dangle off a bungee cord and still be humble before God. It's not the position, it's not the carcase, it doesn't matter if we are on our belly or our backs, God is looking upon the heart.

It's not important how the body reacts to healing, or a miracle. (depending on the healing, it could be a leg being restored so in that case that is important because it's dealing with flesh in those instances). When the heart is moved, tears flow. The tears are not what is important, it's the heart that is being moved. That is what Jesus was getting at in His ministry. It's not what is being done in the flesh that counts but what is going on in the heart. "Man looketh upon the outward appearance but God looketh upon the heart".

Just thinking about this post, I must say, I am so glad that God brought me out to the deep waters and just plunged in and just believed that the same God that filled the Apostles and the early Church with His Spirit and power and the gifts and having the mind changed not by my intellectual understanding of the scriptures but teaching by revelation and installing new software as He wills. To those of you who believe that the power and the gifts died out with the Apostles, I feel very sorry for you. The kingdom of God is only in how you perceive it and not by experience. For the Kingdom of God is the Holy Ghost.

Sad, very sad.

Re: , on: 2012/1/26 23:16So far I don't think anyone has be saying that the gifts are no longer in operation on this thread. The detractors are just wishing for the gifts to operate Scripturally, and for things that are not outlined as such, not to be confused as such.

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Re: - posted by Miccah (), on: 2012/1/26 23:26Ah oh.... The super "triple dog dare" pharisee accusation word was thrown out in this conversation. Now we've done it. Those darn Bible people...

On a side note, I am making a 4-meat Red Baron's Pizza. I missed breakfast, lunch and dinner today. Time for a midnight dinner!

Re: , on: 2012/1/26 23:49

Quote:-------------------------On a side note, I am making a 4-meat Red Baron's Pizza. I missed breakfast, lunch and dinner today. Time for a midnight dinner!-------------------------

Sounds good. I'm about to make an instant Japanese noodle dish called yakisoba myself. They don't make anything likeRed Baron here unfortunately. :(

Re: - posted by brothagary, on: 2012/1/27 2:02how dare you i dont see noodles or piza mentioned in the bible its all demonic i tell you ,,,,lol

Re: - posted by brothagary, on: 2012/1/27 2:06all in all i hope none of my coments apear to suport the benni hin ,tod bently type slain in the spirit

ill confess those manfestation ,make me sick

Re: , on: 2012/1/27 8:30Is there some sort of problem with Benny Hinn and Todd Bentley??

Krispy

Re: - posted by learjet, on: 2012/1/27 9:32Hi Everest:

Quote:-------------------------What version are you looking at? Not all versions translate it that way. I would hope you would go to the original language if a few translations state it differently.

-------------------------

Actually, I gave you the King James version so as to not start the lame 'this version versus that version' argument. I don't need to go to the Hebrew when something is very clear in scripture. You're not clear on it because it goes against the dogma that you've been taught. I'm clear on the issue, I simply take it at face value.

Re: - posted by OnwardUpward, on: 2012/1/27 9:50Friends, I'm waiting for the conclusion of this whole matter :(

Re: , on: 2012/1/27 9:51Not to go off on a rabbit trail here, but the whole Â“you need to go back to the original languages to get the meaning of thisÂ” is bogus in most cases. It suggests that God was incapable of preserving His Word (as He promised) in a way thatcan be understood by the believer todayÂ… and it is also a form of intellectual manipulation (i.e.: IÂ’m smart enough to be able to go back to the original languages and read them and understand more than the common believer). When the conversation is manipulated in this way it is an attempt to win the argument without an argument because in most cases common believers do not have the education or the resources to be able to Â“go back to the original languages"... so they get intimidated by the "intellectual" and bow out of the conversation. Thus ending the conversation. The smart Â“intell

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ectualÂ” guy wins (who probably hasnÂ’t gone back to the original languages eitherÂ…).

God preserved His Word just as He promised He would. You can read it in English and understand it, with the Holy Spirit being your teacher. This whole Â“we have to depend on the intellectuals and PhDÂ’s to tell us what GodÂ’s Word saysÂ” reminds me of the Nicolatians in Revelation, or the whole hierarchal system of the Roman Catholic Church.

Krispy

Re: - posted by jimp, on: 2012/1/27 10:19hi, earlier i told a story against being slain from my life and now i will tell about a cia pilot(air america)who killed many people in viet nam and was married to a beautiful girl who came down with m.s...cia pilots make a lot of money and also smuggle a lot.he took his wife all over the world to find healing, to no avail. he ended up in a katherine k. meeting and while bringing his wife to the altar he was slain and could not get up. every time he tried ms.kuhlman would point at him andhe go to the floor.this is where he realized there was a power greater than his there and cried out to the Lord to save him. his life was transformed by the blood of the Lamb.joe is an example of why we should not use limited knowlege to judge a situation.jimp

Re: , on: 2012/1/27 10:23

Quote:-------------------------Not to go off on a rabbit trail here, but the whole Â“you need to go back to the original languages to get the meaning of thisÂ” is bogus in most cases. It suggests that God was incapable of preserving His Word (as He promised) in a way that can be understood by the believer todayÂ… and it is also a form of intellectual manipulation (i.e.: IÂ’m smart enough to be able to go back to the original languages and read them and understand more than the common believer). When the conversation is manipulated in this way it is an attempt to win the argument without an argument because in most cases common believers do not have the education or the resources to be able to Â“go back to the original languages"... so they get intimidated by the "intellectual" and bow out of the conversation. Thus ending the conversation. The smart Â“intellectualÂ” guy wins (who probably hasnÂ’t gone back to the original languages eitherÂ…).-------------------------

If you have the internet, you have the resources. Last time I checked, everyone on this forum has the resources needed to look anything up. It's useful, especially if there's a word that has several translations.

Now, I think the Word of God is complete and that every Spirit filled believer has the ability to understand what's being communicated. However, if you're going to take one passage, and base your whole doctrine on one word, you'd be quite wise to make sure that one word says EXACTLY what you think it says, as I can attest living in a foreign country and having to speak more than one language, not everything can be purely translated 100% of the time to another language, and retain it's full and intact meaning. I have to preach with a translator quite often, he'll be the first to tell you that the languages don't always jive perfectly, and there is some content that gets lost. I'm understood, however there is stuff that flies right under the radar. It's really a stretch to say that searching to get the clearest rendering of the text is a "manipulation", unless that's what searching out the truth is called recently.

This is how we've gotten several funny doctrines (pre-Adamite creation for one) simply because believers didn't understand the original language translated into their own, and didn't bother to do the research themselves. They'd rather base their doctrine on one word translated in one way into one language than search out what it means to make sure they're getting the author's intention.

It doesn't take an intellectual mind or a PhD to figure this stuff out.

Re: , on: 2012/1/27 10:26jimp... are you then putting your stamp of approval on Katerine Kuhlman Jr (otherwise known as Benny Hinn)?

Krispy

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Re: , on: 2012/1/27 10:29Sama... no, I agree with you. I'm addressing some on here who play the "original languages" card when it's not necessary. In order to "win" an argument.

Krispy

Re: - posted by jimp, on: 2012/1/27 10:34kk, i have been to many of his services and one of them was great. a filthy dirty ,homeless guy walked up the isle and interupted his sevice in orlando and he stopped the service, sat down with the young man on the steps and led the man to Christ . he then arranged for the man to have shelter, some clothes and a job at the ministry. other than that i would not go accossed the street to support him.len ravenhill called her katy k. and iked her.

Re: , on: 2012/1/27 10:34Ahh, I gotcha. I must have just read it wrong. I know what type of gambit play you're talking about though, and also think it's used/abused quite often.

The other extreme is just as dangerous, when one will outright refuse to look at a word or passage in it's full context and translation, because they'll only accept the way their pet translation words it in their own language.

Both positions are ignorant.

And for the record, I used to vehemently defend the positions I'm now opposed to with verses taken out of context because I needed to verify my experience with the Bible, instead of heeding Paul's instruction to "not exceed what has been written" and trying to play every possible run around reason to believe that one of the fruits of the Spirit being self control, must have meant self control with a few exceptions. These are not some sort of cessationist ramblings trying to discountgenuine works of the Holy Spirit. I'm all for those. I'm just quite opposed to the counterfeit ones getting His name tagged on them.


Quote:-------------------------by KrispyKrittr

Sama... no, I agree with you. I'm addressing some on here who play the "original languages" card when it's not necessary. In order to "win" an argument.-------------------------

Actually it was Sama who pulled the 'original languages' card first, krispy!! lolol glad to know that it was in order to win the argument. (Original quote below)

Quote:-------------------------written by EverestoSama on page 5, 5th post down:

What version are you looking at? Not all versions translate it that way. I would hope you would go to the original language if a few translations state it differently-------------------------

God bless you both!Lisa

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Re: , on: 2012/1/27 11:05

Quote:-------------------------kk, i have been to many of his services and one of them was great. a filthy dirty ,homeless guy walked up the isle and interupted hissevice in orlando and he stopped the service, sat down with the young man on the steps and led the man to Christ . he then arranged for the man to have shelter, some clothes and a job at the ministry. other than that i would not go accossed the street to support him.len ravenhill called her katy k. andiked her.-------------------------

We'll have to disagree on Hinn and Kuhlman. They are/were false teachers in the first degree. And it should be noted that there has never been one medically documented healing by either of them.

Kuhlman was from Missouri... so let me borrow from the state motto and say "Show Me".

Krispy

Re: , on: 2012/1/27 12:29It is interesting to me that the major outpourings recorded in the Book of Acts, beginning at PENTECOST, and the several through Peter and Paul, were not accompanied by being slain in the Spirit.

There was of course, the odd behavior that came when they were possessed of the Spirit, and seemed to automatically speak in tongues. But, as Approved has pointed out, several events of Holiness and Theophanies in Scripture that caused the "slain" effect. Here is a few...

"And Moses and Aaron went into the tabernacle of the congregation, and came out, and blessed the people: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto all the people.

And there came a fire out from before the LORD, and consumed upon the altar the burnt offering and the fat: which when all the people saw, they shouted, and fell on their faces."

and.....1 Kings 18:38-40King James Version (KJV)

"Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God."

40And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

and.. "David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawnsword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces."

As the original thread established, much, or most of the current phenomena of being "slain" has nothing to do with Holiness....but exhibits the exact same manifestations as Babylonian Hinduism or Bhuddism has for 5000 years. Hindi's call itKUNDALINI....the snake in the spine.

Todd Bentley had it, and Benny Hinn also...with divorced wives in tow, and for Todd, the lady that carried the bag of gold; Emma, the three foot gal-pal-angel tagging along.

What is the lesson here?

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it werepossible, they shall deceive the very elect.

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Behold, I have told you before."..Jesus

Experiences that may seem to be Holy, can be wicked...and we must not base our faith, or acceptance of a minister based upon their real or perceived prophetic power; many, many do. Multitudes, for instance, received Todd Bentley because he claimed 31 resurrections from the dead, and 10,000 healings. Actually there was not even one.

But, it appeared to be true, amid the frenzy and excitement and pounding rock, as he claimed the angels were present. They were indeed, but evil angels ministering away. There are yet thousands recovering from that assault on their faith, and many ashamed of their foolishness.

Godly men preach Christ and Him Crucified, and point men and women to His Lordship....and the Holy Spirit bears Witness of Himself through signs and wonders. I have witnessed a couple real miracles.

The Devil wants us to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and reject all true moving of the Spirit....and I believe that as we grow, so will our discernment in these last days. In a way, this flood of liars and false prophets say, in the last 10 years, has taught us...between the true and false. This is a good thing...and it becomes more obvious as we go along.

We shall know the true, and the liar by their FRUIT...not by power or wonder.

Re: - posted by jimp, on: 2012/1/27 12:38hi, shes been dead longer than you have been a christian ...how canshe show you anything.. i am not here to raise up orput down,my brother ...these are just truth from my life. she was theatrical to the point of being annoying and overly dramatic but in one meeting isaw her have an invitation and people ran weeping to go to the altar... if she was across the street i would not go and support her either. strangly,jimmy swaggart is across the street and i don't go and support him either and i know him.


Quote:-------------------------And it should be noted that there has never been one medically documented healing by either of them.

Kuhlman was from Missouri... so let me borrow from the state motto and say "Show Me".-------------------------

Hi Krispy,

You would do well to do some research before you come up with ridiculous statements like this. I found this in 2 Googlesearches that took me a grand total of 20 seconds. Here is a book that was written by a medical doctor about notable healings that the Lord did through her ministry:

http://www.is-there-a-god.info/life/tenhealings.shtml

Do a Google search on Lisa Larios, a 12 year old little girl that was healed of cancer.

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Re: , on: 2012/1/27 15:07I never said God does not heal, and if you read about that girl the evidence does not point toward Kuhlman... but toward the prayers of her family. The only thing I will attribute to Kuhlman is coincidence.

Kuhlman taught so much fruity unbiblical doctrine (as does Kuhlman Jr - Benny Hinn)... she and Hinn were/are rank heretics.

And it IS a fact that whenever Hinn is pushed to produce medical evidence of healings it is NEVER produced.

If God heals anyone at one of their services it is in spite of them, not because of them.

Krispy

Re: , on: 2012/1/27 16:32Recently I watched a 90 min documentary on an expose of faith healers. It was fascinating, and during part of it they took a guy off the street (he thought he was auditioning for something else), taught him the Â“tricks of the tradeÂ”, brought him to the US (the film was made in England) and proceeded to hold Â“healing servicesÂ”. Here was a guy who (by some of his behind the scenes language) seemed to not even be saved who was convincing people he had healed themÂ… and also laying hands on people and causing them to be Â“slain in the spiritÂ”.

The whole thing was a mimic. And people were absolutely convinced that what they experienced was of GodÂ… and it wasnÂ’t.

Stick with scripture, not experience.

The documentary is on YouTube, but due to some of the language I wont post the link here, but it's not hard to find.

Krispy

Re: - posted by brothagary, on: 2012/1/27 16:42what wrong with tod ,and benni ,,far out krisspy

one doesnt not have to study long to find there literal false prophecy ,and blatent fasle doctrine ,,and love for money.....are you being funny bro

lets kick some one in the head to heal them as tod did

lets curse those what try to lay a finger on our ministryas benni did ,

when you at tods manifestations ,,you see kudalundi power

if a person spend only a short time studying hindo medatation ,and its manifestation ,along with hipnoses

the conection is obvious

sorry about my spelling

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Quote:-------------------------And it should be noted that there has never been one medically documented healing by either of them.-------------------------

LOL, here's what I had already typed in to my last post because I already knew what you were going to say:

"It's not really going to matter what I type here, no amount of evidence will satisfy you."

But I cut it out because I thought it sounded too harsh :-)

You and Everest should get together, you love to parse words to fit your agendas, I gave you 10 medically documented miracles that the Lord did through her and you still discount them. I never mentioned that the Lord doesn't heal, you did. Did you notice how you changed the point there?

Next I'm sure that you will throw in that they were done demonically even though Jesus said that satan will not cast out satan because his house would be divided:

Quote:-------------------------Â“How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end. -Mark3:23-26-------------------------

I now know why Jesus 'was amazed at their unbelief', even when there is tangible evidence you still don't believe.

Re: , on: 2012/1/27 16:50No reason to get snarky, learjet.

I have no issue that God heals, I am a living example of that. Those who know me on here know what I am referring to. Very real and very tangible.

What I do not believe is that God heals and moves thru heretics... such as Kuhlman, Hinn and Bently... who's false teachings and prophecies are all almost identical. They wouldnt know sound biblical doctrine from a hole in the ground.

If you wish to follow these people you do so at your own peril because they are spiritual decievers and liars.

Can He heal in spite of them? He's God, of course He can. But I am not at all convinced that He heals thru them.

Krispy

Re: - posted by brothagary, on: 2012/1/27 16:51what has healing got to do with varifing weather it comes from the lord

healing is performed in all other religones as well as christanity ,,,it proves nothing

exorsisms are done in islam ,hindoisim ,wikken religones all forms of pagenisim practice exorsim

are you saying it all from god

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Re: , on: 2012/1/27 17:14Again; medically documented healings or not DOES NOT VALIDATE A MINISTRY!....over and over...That is how peopleget deceived....by witnessing lying signs and wonders...and ignoring doctrine and fruit...or, it seems, sometimes theymay be healed authentically!...but even then, IT DOES NOT VALIDATE A MINISTRY!

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

!!! Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.!!!

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of myFather which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity!"

I've heard weird stuff about Katheryn Kuhlman, though I was around when she had her TV show....and the giantQueenly staircase, with her entrance covered in a ballroom chiffon gown, and she seemed to hiss a lot..."This is you dayfor a meeerrrriiiicccle!"...but that doesn't mean a lot, many people are eccentric. She was ALL experience!

Benny Hinn, on the other hand, is as deceived as they come. Word of Faith hocus-pocus. One time, he came outpublicly and taught that there were 27 gods on the Throne. ...He repented after a while, and people forgot about it....He has more mansions and luxury cars than Hitler did, and he recently divorced his long time wife because; "She wasn't spiritual enough."

Fruit, the Word, and a commitment to know Christ Crucified and to conformed to His image...ALL of these things, along with manifest Agape mercies and compassion paint a true woman or man of God, not miracles or healings.


Ughhh... Where's PrimaDogma when we need him??!!


Quote:-------------------------EverestoSama wrote:

Again, it says nothing of them toppling over on their back, and being in some sort of trance like state.-------------------------

I have stated at least once that you do not go into a trance or not know whatÂ’s going on around you. You keeping "assuming" that you know what takes place when the glory of the Lord overtakes someone.---------------------New Testament References:

Jesus said to them, Â“I am He.Â” And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. Then when He said to them. Â“I am He,Â” Â– THEY DREW BACK AND FELL TO THE GROUND. (John 18:6)

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And when I saw Him, I FELL AT HIS FEET AS DEAD. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, Â“Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.Â” (Revelation 1:17) And when the disciples heard it, THEY FELL ON THEIR FACES and were greatly afraid. But Jesus came and touched them and said, Â“Arise, and do not be afraid.Â” (Matthew 17:6) And as he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then HE FELL TO THE GROUND, and heard a voice saying to him, Â“Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?Â” (Acts 9:3-4)-----------------------Three NT references do not include falling Â“forward,Â” they just fell to the ground and we do not know how they fell, in fact they could have very well Â“toppledÂ” to the ground. :)

God bless,Lisa

Re: - posted by murrcolr (), on: 2012/1/27 18:52A couple was found dead and buried in a church car park earlier today in the Tampa, Florida. The man was named only as Bob and the woman named only as Wendy. Pastor Rodney Green made a statement saying Â“that during the collection of offerings they (Bob and Wendy) had made an offering out of the proceeds of some land that they had sold, they had claimed that had put in all the proceeds but had held some back in secretÂ… When I confronted them about lying to me and God they dropped down deadÂ”.

It is alleged the man named Bob died three hours before his with wife and that some men from the church wrapped him up in cloth and buried him in the church car park. Three hours later witness reported to have seen men from the church carry out and bury in the church car park what was believed to be the woman named only as Wendy.

Could you imagine the uproar that would cause today. Just stop and think about it for a momentÂ…. Just imagine the debates all over the news how hot would the discussion forum be on sermon index beÂ…

On a more serious note how do we discern the true from the falseÂ…Â…

How do we discern if being Slain in the Spirit is from God or from the Devil.

I believe God can knock you backwards with no man touching you and I believe that you can just crumple to a heap on the floor why? because I have experienced it. The one where I was knocked backwards while just standing in the congregation during a time of prayer and it was my third time in church, I got back up and started shaking I ended up getting a curse broken of my life and a devil was cast out of me, I was mightily delivered from anger, I used fly into a blind rages ifyou looked at me in a wrong way or said something I didnÂ’t like I would assault them. During the rage I would have complete black out of memory and have no clue of what I had done. When I was unsaved I used to boast that no man has ever knocked me down, guess what God knocked me down and I love him for it. The unregenerate people I work with comment that I have the patience of a saint as they say I just donÂ’t get angry. It was the doing of God I have the fruits of the Spirit in my life as proof, and I am a living testimony that God can turn your life around. The second was when praying for someone in my prayer closet I got the break through in prayer and Gods presence came into the prayer closet and my knees just gave way. When I got back up I just started celebrating my neighbors 4 doors down must have heard me Iwas so loud, the Almighty God had answered my prayer. By the way the person said the prayer of salvation not long after that and they are still going on with God to this dayÂ…

But I also believe that there is a counterfeit of the real as wellÂ… Take for example Tod Bentley he had signs and wonders following him didnÂ’t he? People where been Â“slain in the spiritÂ” there as well?

But on the other hand we have reports of people being Slain in the Spirit from John WesleyÂ’s writings and Jonathan Edwards and we can read in the bible accounts as shown by some posts on here where people just couldnÂ’t stand in Gods presenceÂ….

So what is the key? How can we be sure? What is the method by which we may discern what is true and what is false?

When someone comes along purporting to be a vessel chosen by God and there are signs and wonders following them

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how are we to know what to believe about them?

Jesus Himself warned us that "false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, as so to mislead, if possible, even the elect" Matt 24:24. His words have certainly proved correct over the years and because they are true, we must develop a capacity to discern the true prophet from the false prophet.

We donÂ’t use appearance to discern the true prophets from the false prophets they can have both have signs and wonders following them. If we were to only look at the outward manifestation of supernatural power, we might be deceived as satan is a supernatural being too.

Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. Matt 7:15 Before we can determine who is true and who is false, we must understand a principle. It is that we cannot make a determination based simply on outward appearance. If we simply look at externals, we could miss out in what God is doing or we could be deceivedÂ….

The true test of a true prophet or false prophet along with there signs and wonders has to do with there character Â“the fruitÂ” that they show. Appearances can be deceiving. Take time to inspect Â“the fruitÂ” this will give a more certain indication of the nature of the tree.

Matt 7:16-20 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? Even so, every good tree bears fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.

What are the marks of a true prophet?

One area in which Jesus expects us to bear good fruit is the in our character. Here we are talking about who we are on the inside. What are your motives? What are your attitudes? What are your ambitions? Jesus said in John 15:8, "By this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples." Paul in Galatians 5:22-23 tells us that "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control." In other words, if we are walking in the power of the Spirit then we will be displaying the fruit of the Spirit in our lives.

What are the marks of a false prophet?

If what they are manifesting in there lives is something other than the fruit of the Spirit described in Galatians, then we may conclude that they are not being lead by the Spirit and are False Prophets with false signs and wonders.

We do have to be carefulÂ… Notice that I did not say be skeptical. Far too many people close themselves off to God because they are afraid of being deceived. The fact that there are false prophets means that there are true prophets. So don't be skeptical - be careful. Evaluate what you hear by the Word of God and look at the character of that person's life.

Being Slain by the Spirit in some cases it's true in other cases it's a counterfeit of the real.....

Re: - posted by roadsign (), on: 2012/1/27 19:19Just passing through:

Quote:------------------------- Again; medically documented healings or not DOES NOT VALIDATE A MINISTRY!. ------------------------- So true! The devil can do amazing signs and miracles too. But also, itÂ’s not beyond God to work through ministries that are significantly flawed. I wonder - is it is because so many local churches themselves, even though they may have more rooted doctrines and creeds, have strayed so far from accepting signs, wonders, miracles, angels, demons, prophetic ministry, etc that God sends people elsewhere to receive healings and blessings? ( I am a personal example, and can think of others)

It would be nice if Christian ministries were cut and dry: either totally flaky or totally authentic. But it doesnÂ’t seem to w

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ork that way often.

Quote:------------------------- Ughhh... Where's PrimaDogma when we need him??!! -------------------------

Him?? This is a Â“herÂ” is this not? Or did I falsely make an association with the word, Â“Prima donnaÂ”.

Diane


Quote:-------------------------But I also believe that there is a counterfeit of the real as wellÂ… Take for example Tod Bentley he had signs and wonders following him didnÂ’t he? People where been Â“slain in the spiritÂ” there as well?-------------------------

Hi Colin,

I agree with 100% of what you said here, especially the statement above.

When you boil down the crux of this whole post it comes down to 2 words: forward and backward

According the the broad generalization made in this article, if you fall backwards it means you are possessed by some Hindu god/demon.

This goes back to my earlier point:

Quote:-------------------------Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! -Matthew 7:9-11-------------------------

Someone comes forward for prayer (like deliverance from anger, as was already mentioned, AND NOW YOU MENTIONIT (had to update the quote) ) and the Lord gives him a snake(demon)? I'm sorry that is not how my Lord would do things.

I honestly can't see the Lord on the throne saying "Hey, Jesus, do you see that guy over there at the Assembly of God inYourtown, USA? He's there asking for deliverance from anger, CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT HE FELL BACKWARDS? Send him a demon, he should have known better..."

This is the god that people are presenting here.

The shabbily written article set up two distinct camps, those who are demon possessed (the people who at one time in their lives have fallen backwards) and those who are normal God fearing people that just so happen to agree with the author (the forward fallers).

My point is simply that reasonable people can disagree on trivial matters and still serve God with a heart of love. These emotional, unstable people publish articles without ever stopping to consider if their senseless ramblings will cause someone to fall away from serving the Lord OR be tortured in their soul about falling backwards. No, they are more concern

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ed about being 'right', to them 'being right' is supreme and feeds into the pride that has set into their hearts. They really don't care about the person who they might cause to stumble, they run them over like an 18 wheel truck hitting a squirrel.

This spirit (and it is a spirit) is the same spirit that followed Jesus looking to accuse Him of something, they were never there to listen and be touched, just to look for something that they disagreed with and accuse (and no I'm not talking about anyone in this thread so chillax).

I could really care less about which way people fall over (or if they don't fall over at all), if God set you free whether frontwards, backwards, in the fetal position or you did 5 back flips I'm thankful to have a brother that is free!

To be honest with you I'm tired of being bullied by folks whose opinions about scripture seem to be the only ones that matter, usually I don't say anything about it but that ends today.


Nope, it's a him.

Re: , on: 2012/1/27 20:22"The devil can do amazing signs and miracles too."

Do not give the devil any credit for anything "Amazing" or post him up as doing the "Miraculous", he cannot do either.

I have heard this statement many times before and we've added words that we think is in the bible. The "wonders" that refer to the anti Christ are not miracles of healing they are political miracles.

He cannot "heal" anyone. He promises and doesn't deliver. His power is limited to lies and whispers and he cannot be intwo places at once.

He has been stripped of all power and is now a pawn in the hands of Almighty God. The second Adam conquered him bruising his head and Christ took his power away from him that man gave to him in the beginning giving him legal rights to be in the heavenlies, but now, Christ has spoiled principalities, He stripped him and his cohorts of their power, threw Satan out of heaven and to further the humiliation gave those gifts to mere man.

Re: , on: 2012/1/27 20:40

Quote:-------------------------I have stated at least once that you do not go into a trance or not know whatÂ’s going on around you. You keeping "assuming" that you know what takes place when the glory of the Lord overtakes someone.-------------------------

So just to be clear then, when one is "slain in the Spirit" they're in control of their body, and they just choose to rock backwards a bit, and propel themselves to fall over backwards, correct? It's a choice that one makes when they're touched orprayed for by a speaker or when Benny Hinn waves his hand at them, yes?

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Re: , on: 2012/1/27 20:43Sama said: "if you're going to take one passage, and base your whole doctrine on one word, you'd be quite wise to make sure that one word says EXACTLY what you think it says, as I can attest living in a foreign country and having to speak more than one language, not everything can be purely translated 100% of the time to another language, and retain it's full and intact meaning. I have to preach with a translator quite often, he'll be the first to tell you that the languages don't always jive perfectly, and there is some content that gets lost. I'm understood, however there is stuff that flies right underthe radar. It's really a stretch to say that searching to get the clearest rendering of the text is a "manipulation", unless that's what searching out the truth is called recently."

Amen, that is correct. I find the KJV only people, and mind you I prefer it myself, but when translating the KJV into other languages it's not going to be the Elizabethan English, it's going to be however the rendering is in their native tongue. I am told that translating from the Hebrew and Greek into the English was painstaking because finding an English word for a "saying" or an "idiom" was most difficult.

As you said, to base a whole doctrine on one word is not wise. All the bible must agree with the part and the part with the whole. If it's found wanting on any part, the humble approach would be to forsake it and start over.

Re: , on: 2012/1/27 20:43

Quote:-------------------------The "wonders" that refer to the anti Christ are not miracles of healing they are political miracles.-------------------------

That claim will not be validated by Scripture. There are healings preformed all the time in occult circles. Saying that the devil has no power in this arena is frankly not true. Why do you think they're going to be exclusively political?

Re: , on: 2012/1/27 21:00double

Re: , on: 2012/1/27 21:00tripled

Re: , on: 2012/1/27 21:00

Quote:-------------------------What are the marks of a true prophet?

One area in which Jesus expects us to bear good fruit is the in our character. Here we are talking about who we are on the inside. What are your motives? What are your attitudes? What are your ambitions? Jesus said in John 15:8, "By this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples." Paul in Galatians 5:22-23 tells us that "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control." In other words, if we are walking in the power of the Spirit then we will be displaying the fruit of the Spirit in our lives.

What are the marks of a false prophet?

If what they are manifesting in there lives is something other than the fruit of the Spirit described in Galatians, then we may conclude that they are not being lead by the Spirit and are False Prophets with false signs and wonders.-------------------------

Blessings and respect to you, dear Brother.

The Galatian 5 fruit is not how we're to test a false prophet.

If this were the test - Elijah and the others would have failed this modern day test.

When the children yelled out to Elisha, "Go up, thou bald-head" - what happened next?

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In these days, the majority would ask, Where's this man's longsuffering, gentleness, love, etc.?

Just sayin'

Re: , on: 2012/1/27 21:01"That claim will not be validated by Scripture. There are healings preformed all the time in occult circles."

It's not a claim. It's a fact.

Satan can only perform "lying wonders", nothing more.

A true healing requires that the source has life and life to impart healing. Persons in the occult perform lying wonders because their source has not life. They cannot impart life because they have not life.

We who have the gifts of the Spirit have life to impart because we have Christ in us for out of our bellies are flowing rivers of living water. The occultist belly is a dry river bed having no life to give.

John 3:2 for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Re: , on: 2012/1/27 21:16"The Beautiful Side of Evil" -- Good book ...

Quote: "Johanna Michaelsen, author of "The Beautiful Side of Evil" had the audience laughing and crying, sometimes simultaneously. She told her testimony of how she was led into the occult when she was younger through Silva Mind Control and acting as the assistant to a psychic surgeon in Mexico. She did all this while considering herself to be a Christianuntil she was shown the error of her ways by a "dogmatic, narrow-minded, Bible-thumping, Fundamentalist" by the nameof Edith Schaeffer, wife of the late Francis Schaeffer, at the L'Abri community in Switzerland. Johanna utilized her first-hand knowledge of the occult to expose the workings of the spirit of antichrist that has crept into the church counterfeiting the true gifts of the Spirit."

http://apostasyalert.org/REFLECTIONS/women_watch.htm

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Re: , on: 2012/1/27 21:42"Johanna utilized her first-hand knowledge of the occult to expose the workings of the spirit of antichrist that has crept into the church counterfeiting the true gifts of the Spirit."

Yes, "Counterfeiting" the true gifts of the Spirit. Thank you.

Re: , on: 2012/1/27 22:21

Have you read her book? It sure is an eye-opener.

Re: - posted by brothagary, on: 2012/1/27 22:51hey approved you used a text from john ,about nicodemes,,who at the time was not born again,and jesus rebuked him for acualy saying what he did ,and not noing what the new birth was ,,,,his word including the one you quoted was from a lost man with out the spirit of god

healing take place in all pagen religones ,,,you will come across many tesamoneys

satan is still the prince of this world ,the prince and the power of the air the spirit the worketh in the sons of disobedance

hipnoses is an ocult practice ,that has heald people by the power of sugestion

even heald people of addictions ,,i known people personaly that have been helped so the speak

accupuncher is a pagen practice that has deliverd much relife .......reki also

bowen therpy ,has done miracles

theres thousand of testamones ....weather we want to call them lying miracles or not is not the issue

the effects has been seen and experanced for thousands of years

Re: - posted by PrimaDogma, on: 2012/1/27 22:55As Supreme Pontifical Authority over all matters of Dogma, I laugh as I look down from my lofty position on you mere laymen trying to sort out these High Matters.

Each clergyman must be free to follow his conscience on this topic, which is the same as following the money, since a clergymanÂ’s conscience will always lead him in the direction of the cash flow.

Charismatic clergy get paid good money to slay people in the Spirit; fundamentalists get paid good money to preach against guys who slay people in the Spirit. Some guys sell rapturous spiritual experiences; some guys sell spooky demon stories. The Bible provides no basis for either activity, and it wouldnÂ’t matter if it did. There are no biblical absolutes, not when thereÂ’s money to be made.

But this points to the fundamental flaw in the fundamentalist business model. Charismatic ministers traffic in experiences, and if fundamentalism vanished tomorrow, it would have no adverse effect on the charismatic profit margin. They donÂ’t need us, but we need them, since our congregations are addicted to denunciatory preaching, and we make our livings by satisfying this niche market demand, and charismatics provide the richest array of non-fundamentalist antics to preach against. If we ever succeeded in verbally bludgeoning charismatics, emergents, liberals, contemplative pray-ers and neo-evangelicals out of existence, we would have no one left to preach against, and no livelihood.

We must find a way to develop a symbiotic relationship with charismatics, to make them just as financially dependent onus as we are on them. I have appointed an Exploratory Committee to address this issue and will keep you posted on ourfindings.

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Re: - posted by brothagary, on: 2012/1/27 23:05well i can say i dont get paid to listen to you pimocatma

if you like ill give you my bank details ,and you can deposit some money ,,,ill let you no if its enough then we talk ;;;;;;;till then back on your petastil ,,

lol

Re: - posted by Miccah (), on: 2012/1/27 23:09

Quote:-------------------------I have heard this statement many times before and we've added words that we think is in the bible. The "wonders" that refer to the anti Christ are not miracles of healing they are political miracles.-------------------------

Revelation 13:13, "He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."

I think that it would be wise to study your Bible more before making bold claims as above. What you stated, is in direct contradiction to the Word. Please explain to me how calling FIRE DOWN FROM HEAVEN is a "political" miracle?

He performs great signs? Is the Bible talking about a political banner, or something like... "Vote for Satan"?

Verse 15, "He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast..." Is this another savvy political miracle that he makes?

THIS is why it is important to know His word and to know Him. So that we are not decieved.

For context...

Revelation 13:11-17, "Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spokelike a dragon. And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Re: , on: 2012/1/27 23:15I'm waiting on this part - the Gentle Giants. GOD Bless them!

Rev 11:3-6 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

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Re: - posted by PrimaDogma, on: 2012/1/27 23:18brothagary,

OK, just email me your account and routing numbers, and let me know how much is in the account so I don't overdraw.

Of course, by tomorrow morning your account will be as empty as a Robert Tilton Faith Partner's wallet. But the money will be well-spent. I will hire actors to infiltrate local charismatic churches, go forward to be slain in the spirit, then thrash around on the floor spouting blasphemies. Other volunteers will be waiting in the parking lot passing out Niland literatureto the fleeing worshippers. I will then tabulate the attendance increases in local fundamentalist congregations next Sunday and do a cost-risk probability assessment to see if further investments in this tactic are justified.

Re: , on: 2012/1/27 23:36That is funny, Your Immenseness, but it's been done already and us Fundies are still losing numbers by the droves, daily.

Could you try something else?

Re: - posted by PrimaDogma, on: 2012/1/27 23:50Done already? Why am I never notified of these things?

We might float the idea that there is a Demon of Fundamentalism requiring the ministrations of Deliverance Ministers, then convince all our problem people that they are possessed and send them to the Holy Rollers for treatment. If we were to augment the charismatic profit margin in this way, it may help create the mutual dependence I spoke of.

Re: , on: 2012/1/28 1:21"Charismatic clergy get paid good money to slay people in the Spirit; fundamentalists get paid good money to preach against guys who slay people in the Spirit.

Some guys sell rapturous spiritual experiences; some guys sell spooky demon stories. The Bible provides no basis for either activity, and it wouldn't matter if it did. There are no biblical absolutes, not when thereÂ’s money to be made." PrimaDogma

Brilliantly assessed! and I agree with you totally. The Religious Spirit knows No bounds or shame. Remember the Pharisees in their calculated plans to murder Jesus;...

"Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.

If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation."

Power and money are twin sisters, and the machinations of power brokers excel in the realm of Religion more than any other because there, the soul; of mankind rises or falls.

Re: , on: 2012/1/28 1:56I found a good article on this subject by Jacob Prasch. I hardly expect it to change any minds of those posting, but it maybe beneficial to some just browsing. I'll warn you upfront that it's long, but it's highly interesting and I think it's worth the read and addresses pretty much every issue that's been discussed here so far.

Slain in the Spirit: A Midrashic Perspective by Jacob Prasch, 1996

There are few issues today that result in as much controversy, misunderstanding and division, as the question of being "slain in the Spirit". Some maintain that the phenomena has absolutely no biblical basis. This position is mistaken. Otherswho promote such carnal deceptions as Toronto / Pensacola see it as some proof that God is moving. They accuse those who disagree of "Not being Spirit Baptized" or "Repressing the Spirit" or of being "cessationists" (ie, holding to the erro

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neous opinion that the gifts of the Spirit ended with the Apostles). In fact, many opposing such unscriptural practice are themselves Pentecostals and Charismatics. Examined biblically, the truth is somewhere other than what either camp seems to realize.

Manifestations

Nowhere in Scripture are "manifestations" or "impartations" associated with being slain in the Spirit. The manifestations cited in 1 Corinthians, in connection with Spiritual Gifts, bear no relation whatsoever to what we see going on in places like Pensacola. Toronto/Pensacola manifestations more closely resemble Stage Hypnotism, Eastern Religious Mysticism and demon possession, than they do anything biblical. Indeed, being "slain in the Spirit" in at least one place is connected with Jesus casting a demon out of someone following irrational behaviour. Several years prior to Toronto, a number of Vineyard pastors associated the same expressions of irrational behaviour, now common in Toronto and Pensacola, with the irrational behaviour of the demoniacs in scripture. Being slain in the Spirit was seen as evidence of "deliverance" and"exorcism" and demons coming out as in Mark 9. Now the phenomena once recognized by them as proof of the demonic, is suddenly proof of the Divine! What is the truth? What has God already said about this subject in His Word?

John on Patmos

We find the term "slain in the Spirit" in the first chapter of the Book of Revelation, where the Apostle John is "in the Spirit on the Lord's Day" and, after the presence of Jesus overtakes him, John "falls as if slain". This is not the first or only timesuch an experience is recorded in Scripture, but it is the place from where we get the term, and it reveals something about the experience. These phenomena were unusual in the Bible. For something that was rare in Scripture to become a common event in contemporary times must raise questions about the authenticity of what we are seeing today. Instead ofGod moving, people are being pushed over or manipulated by hypnotic suggestion, after being set up by repetitive mesmerizing music. This is no different from what happens at stage hypnotist shows. (Those who fall down all the time have personality types predisposed to hypnotic induction.) Today's experiences are frequently accompanied by hysterics, animal imitations, drunken behaviour and slurred speech. In John's experience in Revelation, as in Daniel's, it was accompanied by a sense of terror at the holiness of the awesome presence of the Lord. With both John and Daniel (who saw the same prophetic eschatological visions from different aspects), the experience was so frightening that the Lord dispatched an angel to reassure them and tell them not to fear. Whenever this experience happened in scripture, it was a unique, one time event that took place for a specific reason in a specific situation. There is no biblical record of it happening multiple times. An overpowering encounter with the Lord brought a sense of terror, so it was not likely to be something people wanted to happen again. Not that the experience with the Divine itself was bad, but it was very frightening to John andDaniel. They required divine intervention to make it bearable. Today, however, we see people going back again and again to receive "another dose". Such people are not seeking the Lord, but seeking an experience. This counterfeits the authentic biblical phenomena with a cheap thrill, reducing a bonafide encounter with the Lord to the level of popular entertainment. The unbiblical practice of getting back in the prayer line for "going down" on the floor is no different to getting in the queue for another ride on a roller coaster (except in their own imagination). The fact that their experience does not match biblical descriptions of being 'slain in the Spirit' does not seem to register with them. Christians who go back for more and more of these experiences are not going back for something real, but for a psychological (and in some cases possibly a demonic) counterfeit. This is only possible due to an ignorance of both post-hypnotic suggestion and an ignorance of the Book of the Lord - as well as the Lord of the Book. Even though they have had a New Birth experience at some point, they have not been properly discipled and never taught the Word of God, nor managed to acquire discernment. Seeking manifestations of the Holy Spirit instead of seeking the Spirit Himself, and chasing thrills for thrills' sake, while foolishly misinterpreting those as a "blessing", comes dangerously close to "the wicked and adulterous generation seeking a sign" that Jesus warned against and condemned (Luke 11:29).

Ignorance of Scripture

Yet if one questions such unscriptural practices on the basis of Scripture, they are not infrequently told that they are in danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. He wrote the Bible, speaking through the Prophets and Apostles. We are plainly commanded to "examine everything carefully;hold fast to that which is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21) - 'good' meaning 'biblically true'. A predisposition to such manipulation and suggestion is cultivated by unscriptural worship. (With no theology, there can be no doxology). The Holy Spirit is only ever worshipped in Scripture in the context of the Triunity of the Godhead. He is never prayed to directly in the Bible. But as John 14 and John 16 tell us, He always points people to Jesus.

The worship of worship

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What we see today in the unbiblical lyrics of Vineyard Music, such as "The River Song", does not lift up Jesus but an experience. It is the worship of worship, which is not worship at all, but deception. The music has a pre-hypnotic impact, setting people up for "going down". This is why we see people, who are already Christians, running up for altar calls at such places as Pensacola, in what is then falsely termed "revival". But when unsaved people see the ludicrous carnality, they think the place is a lunatic asylum. Tragically they are more right than they are wrong. As the experience of "going down"becomes what is sought above the Holy Spirit, God's Spirit Himself becomes denigrated. Thus we see people referring to going to Pensacola or Toronto to get "IT", instead of going to the Lord for themselves to get "Him". Such extreme Pentecostals and hyper-Charismatics wind up with a pneumatology (a doctrine of the Holy Spirit) which is no different in substance and practice to that of the Jehovah's Witnesses cult, which sees the Holy Spirit not as a person but as an inanimate force. A force however cannot be grieved or blasphemed, only a person can.

Psychological manipulation

Christian Psychiatrists and secular experts on hypnotism, who campaign against its non-clinical use in entertainment, have warned that what we see with people going down today is pure manipulation. So have some Christian leaders who have come out of it. On a national TV broadcast in Great Britain, Mark Haville, a preacher who directs National Prayer Network video ministry, showed videos of himself running around putting his hands on people and them dropping like flies, explaining how it is done from the point of view of a preacher who realized from scripture that what he was doing was wrong. There are many other fundamental differences between the genuine biblical experience of being slain in the Spirit and the majority of what goes on today.

Phenomena in history

Some will point out that it was a common phenomena in the ministry of John Wesley and George Whitefield during the Great Revivals, and in the ministry of Jonathan Edwards and Charles Finney. That is true. However, while the Lord may have used Charles Finney, we need to be very cautious about making him an authority for any belief or practice. Mr. Finney, for all of his good intention, effectively denied original sin and bordered on the terrible heresy of Pelagianism. Pelagianism is an ancient error, named after an apostate monk, that says we can make the initial steps towards salvation by ourown efforts. Mr. Finney denied that man was born fallen with original sin and thus needed to be born again, although he did agree we all had sin and needed to repent and be saved. Our standard to authenticate something must, first and foremost, be the Bible. In the ministry of Wesley, Whitefield, and Edwards however, while people in large numbers did indeed fall down, it had no resemblance to what we see normally witness today. In their ministries it was unsaved people falling under the power of a holy and righteous God, in fear and trepidation, and repenting of their sin and being saved. It wasnot people who already claimed to be regenerate Christians behaving like silly maniacs. It had nothing to do with the kinds of things we generally see in our time. In the Bible and in church history, when the genuine thing happened to either believers or non-believers, it was nothing like today's popular fiasco. Moreover, as in the Bible, the "falling down" was a unique, one time experience. It was not repeated at every meeting or continually sought. The almost addictive craving some people develop for "going down" - as if it were a verification that God's Spirit was really at work - is the kind of compulsive behaviour His Spirit is given to set us free from.

Dangerous and foolish

The real test of God's power in our lives as believers is the power of holy living, not silly stunts. In a large church in London, a man supposedly "Went Down in The Spirit" and split his head open. When I questioned the leader of the particular denomination about it he said that it happened because the particular area of the floor where he fell was not carpeted! We have had calls from distraught people in a Pentecostal church in England where a woman has more than once gone down on the floor, supposedly 'slain in spirit', and lost control of her bladder in church. More than that, she insisted that others come and join her on the floor, pontificating that they were 'grieving the Spirit' by refusing to do so. I can think of few things more warped than to suggest that God's Spirit produces incontinence as a manifestation of His presence. I can only pity this unfortunate woman, but people should not be in a church like that. In a video of Bishop David Pytches at St. Andrews Chorleywood in the UK, another woman had someone fall on her smashing her eye glasses and bruising her face, yet she was in hysterics displaying the injury for the camera and insisting it was 'of God'. Benny Hinn settled a multi-million dollar law suite out of court when he laid hands on someone and they supposedly went down under the Holy Ghost, falling on top of an elderly woman, effectively killing her as she soon died from broken hip complications. These extreme cases are becoming more common. On some videos we have from London's Victory Church (a UK platform of RickGodwin and Ray Macaulley) which show people falling violently, it is portrayed as hysterically laughable, despite the potential for physical injury. This is destructive to our Christian witness and testimony -particularly as millions watch such ou

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tlandish frenzy on national TV. This is not supernatural, but unnatural. It is for certain that at her funeral the bereaved family of the woman killed by the actions of Benny Hinn, and the poor victims of medical incontinence in geriatric hospitals do not see such things as "blessings". Such dangerous, traumatic, degrading and even deadly things have no relation toany episode in the Bible where this experience is initiated by God's Spirit. God's Spirit does not injure, humiliate, or kill people in the name of 'blessing' them, or in the name of bringing Revival to His church. If there is any danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit it is by those who so dishonour Him by teaching otherwise.

Teaching of Scripture

But let us look even more closely at this experience when it happened in scripture in contrast to what mainly goes on today. We do not wish to suggest that if someone falls backward the experience is false, purely psychological or demonic, yet whenever it happened in the Bible the people fell on their faces before The Lord. The only time recorded in scripture where people fell backwards, spiritually slain, is when His enemies and false accusers came to arrest Jesus (John 18:6).The other times the people fell forward. To really grasp the true nature of being "slain in the Spirit" we must look at one key example from the gospels. In our exegesis let us understand the midrashic and typological dimension of the episode which illustrates the true meaning. As always, we must beware of building any doctrinal conclusions on type, allegory, ormidrash. We only use typological illustration and midrash to illuminate and demonstrate doctrine.

Mark 9:17-29

In Mark 9:17-29 we read the narrative account of a young man so demon possessed that the apostles could not cast the evil spirits out of him. This gospel account reveals important things about the subjects of demonology and exorcism, and also the subject of faith (v. 24). But the text also graphically depicts features which are central to a genuine understanding of 'being slain in the Spirit'. With the single exception of Mary Magdalen, each case of demonic possession recorded in the gospels is accompanied by some form of self destructive, irrational behaviour. This case is no exception. We first see the boy being driven by the unclean spirit into convulsions, with foaming at the mouth. Some Christians in the medical profession have investigated demonic possession from the view point of medical science. One of the most renownedof these was Dr. Kurt Koch. Clinically there appears to be at least two general areas of possibility here. We asked Dr. Hilda Podlas, a Messianic Jewish Physician specializing i n neurological disorders to attempt a forensic review of the case in Mark 9 from a diagnostic perspective. We are advised that such phenomena can be symptomatic of serious neurological disorders such as encephalitis, some meningiococcal infections, leuco-dystrophy, and certain kinds of epilepsy. Clearly these illnesses are not always caused by sin or by the direct workings of Satan, but they can be in some cases, and they are here in verse 25, causing the deaf and dumb condition in this young person who Jesus delivered from Satan's clutch. Whenever Jesus took away a disorder caused by demonic 'oppression' in the gospels, the Greek term is therapeuo meaning 'healed'. When it is caused by open 'possession' however, as it is here in Mark 9, the term is ekballo meaning 'cast out'.

Another clinical possibility for the boy imitating an animal might point to the bacterial disease rabies. Rabies can result in irrational behaviour in humans as it does in animals. When the mind of a beast was given to Nebechednezzer, the animal imitations were a manifestation of God's judgement. Here it could be a manifestation of demon possession. Although in its literature the Brownsville Assemblies of God church in Pensacola (like its Toronto counterpart) sanctions animal imitations such as roaring like a lion, nowhere in scripture is animal imitation ever a manifestation of God's Spirit. Non-metaphorical comparisons of persons to animals, may be a sign of God's judgement, or of demon possession, but never of God's blessing, in spite of what some people are teaching today. Perhaps however, there was no medical pathology involved, only symptoms. We cannot be sure.

Midrash

The demons then propelled the boy to throw himself into the fire. Viewed midrashically, there is more to this abnormal, self destructive behaviour than the demon trying kill him, although that surface aspect is certainly true and important in its own right, as it reveals how Satan wants people to kill themselves. In verse 22 the demon threw him into the water and threw him into the fire. In biblical figure, as with Noah's flood and Pharaoh and his army, death by drowning was judgement. Throwing into the fire however is a picture of hell (Revelation 20:14). This is the true nature of Satan. He wants to seepeople join him in the judgement and eternal perdition reserved for him. God - in the person of the Lord Jesus -is in the business of saving people from judgement and hell. This story in Mark is a typological illustration of a new birth experience, a saving act by Jesus resulting in a regeneration, where the old creation that was bound for judgement and hell dies (as this boy falls down like a corpse after encountering the Lord, v. 26). After meeting Jesus, he becomes (as it were) a di

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fferent person and is now in his right mind. This is exactly what happened in Mark 5:15 at Gerasene. The Lord gives us the power of a sound mind. The theological term that applies in this text is known as "corporate solidarity", where one person represents a larger or collective group of people. Here the young boy represents all of fallen mankind collectively. This is not to suggest that all unsaved people are demon possessed. This is certainly not true, although all of them reside in Satan's kingdom and are under the realm of his domain in this fallen world. But while we cannot say that all persons not yet born again are demon possessed, since the Lord promises His people the power of a sound mind, I cannot help but wonder if all unsaved people are not to some degree, not 'of sound mind'. How tragic it is then, when supposedly saved Christians behave more irrationally than the lost do, by falling down at meetings all the time, erroneously believing it is God's Spirit knocking them out.

A new creation

In terms of a corporate solidarity, this young man being plunged by Satan into judgement and hell is saved by Jesus. Hefalls as if he is dead (verse 26) and becomes like a corpse. When we are saved we also fall down dead. The old creationis slain. Even though we may not all literally fall under the Spirit of God physically, as happened in figure here in Mark 9 or in the ministry of John Wesley or Jonathan Edwards, the old creation bound for judgement and hell becomes a corpseand we become new creations. Something happened when this young man met Jesus that is so typical of what happenswhen anyone meets Jesus and becomes a new creation. Most people thought he had died. When I was saved, my family and friends thought the crazy university student stoned on cocaine that they once knew was dead. I became different. And when you first met Jesus and were saved by Him you became different. Your unsaved family and friends thought the old you was dead. And they were, in some way, right. The unsaved cannot understand what happens when we are born again. Our old selves become dead at the feet of Jesus and He raises us up as new creations that Satan can no longer control and throw into judgement and the fire of hell. Understood midrashically, the literal experience of being 'slain in the spirit' in Mark 9 reflects the deeper experience of death and resurrection we all have when we meet the Lord Jesus. He saves all from the judgement and the fire who repent and truly receive Him.

Spectators have the same need

Just like the spectators in Mark 9 however, the unsaved who knew us before we met Jesus share a common attribute. They knew that the demon possessed young lad was in serious trouble and in desperate need of help. What they did not realize however, was that in God's economy they were in the same desperate state. They are bound for the same judgement and destruction at the hands of Satan. The unsaved who see the change that meeting Jesus causes in our lives, do not realize that they too have just as desperate a need for Him to bring Himself and His salvation into their lives as well, although the need may not be as outwardly obvious. They also are bound for judgement and hell without the true salvation only found in Him.

God can do the same today

The physical falling that happened with the young man in Mark 9 happened in the crusades of the Great Awakenings, when people fell under the conviction of sin and were saved. There is no biblical reason why the real thing cannot still happen today, if and when God so chooses. But precious little of today's falling down is the sovereign power of God. Once the boy got up again, he was a completely different person. His falling down 'slain in the spirit', when he encountered the Lord, was a once-only life transforming experience. Even when it happened to Daniel and John, it was the same. In each biblical case the people were totally different after they got up than from when they went down. The test is not what happens when somebody goes down, but how radically transformed their lives as believers in Jesus are, once and for all, after they get back up. In genuine cases, the people were never the same again. Today, we see very little of this. What we mainly have now is people going back for more and more because the first time they went down it was not transforming enough - so they want another dose of the same experience. If anything demonstrates the hollow and counterfeit nature of most of what we see today in "falling in the spirit", it is this. The real thing we see in Scripture has nothing to do with Toronto, Pensacola, Sunderland, or what has become of most of the Full Gospel Businessman's Fellowship. How radically different are most of the people we see falling down today after they get up again? Usually they are no different in the longer term. That is why they go back for what amounts to little more than "another fix". But it would be very wrong to say, as some do, that there is no biblical authority for the experience of being 'slain in the spirit'. There is a clear scriptural basis for this experience and, as with the Gifts of the Spirit, Satan only counterfeits things worth counterfeiting. It would also be a mistake to state that this experience is something that only happened in biblical times and that a sovereign, all-powerful God cannot or will not cause this experience to happen again if He so chooses. Nowhere does Scripture teach that He will not do it when and if it suits His purposes. He did it in the ministry of Jonathan Edwards and George Whitefield (Reformed Calvinists) and John and Charles Wesley (Arminians), and He can do it today.

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In accordance with Scripture

But if He does elect to do it today, it will be in accordance with Scripture as it was in the ministry of Wesley, Whitefield, and Edwards - and not like Benny Hinn, Colin Dye, Steve Hill, or Rodney Howard-Brown. These are two distinct and mutually exclusive things. The former group was of God, and the latter group most certainly is not. While it would be quite wrong to say that most of what is alleged to be being 'slain in the Spirit' in contemporary trends has anything at all to do withthe genuine biblical article, it is also quite wrong to say that there is no genuine biblical article to begin with. We must notconfuse the biblical with the popular, neither conversely, should we reject the scriptural and authentic because of the unscriptural and counterfeit. The overwhelming majority of what goes on today clearly is not God at all. At best, most of it isa fleshly manifestation where the psychological and carnal are substituted for the biblical and spiritual. In some cases it may even be overtly demonic. The increase of body heaviness, despite no actual increase in mass or weight, testified toby Pensacola Pastor John Kilpatrick when he went down - while a very common feature in demon possession, occult practices, and in Eastern and New Age Religion - certainly has no biblical warrant. Because the Fruit of the Spirit is self control (Galatians 5:23), no valid supernatural experience, no matter how ecstatic, can justify people passed out in a day dream or screaming like maniacs on the floor. This is not what happened to John, or Daniel. Less still does a real supernatural experience of the Lord see someone crashing down on the ground, vibrating like a victim of severe epilepsy, and resembling more the demoniac in Mark 9 before Jesus saved him, than the soul he became after he met the Lord. A genuine falling under God's Spirit that reflects a true redemptive work of God, or revolutionizes the life of a believer in such a way as the church is blessed and encouraged, as with John in Revelation chapter one, is another matter. It is rather rarein Scripture, fairly rare in church history, and seemingly even more rare today. Perhaps, if the real experience were not being counterfeited and produced in the flesh so widely, we would see the Lord doing more of the real thing. I do not know. God is sovereign and that is up to Him. Being discerning and judging biblically, however, is something He said is up to us. We live in a church environment today where people are falling down left, right, and centre. There is a true version and a false version. What predominates in contemporary circles, is plainly the false. This falling can and has caused physical injury, humiliation, and even death. The saturation of our churches with this current brand of manipulation and deception is good for little, except undermining the credibility of the church. I want to be open to anything of God that He desires for me. If it is of God it will be Bible based. The only thing that God is interested in - and therefore the only thing that we should be interested in - is not what happens when people go down, but what happens when people get back up.

Midrash is the ancient Jewish method of biblical exegesis used by The New Testament writers, in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and in early rabbinics.The rabbinic 'Midrashim' were written in the fourth century to the Middle Ages but the earliest recorded rabbinic midrash cites earlier orally transmitted traditions dating back to the 7 Midoth of Rabbi Hillel , the grandfatherof Rabbi Gamaliel, tutor of St. Paul. We see Paul's use of these principles of interpretation in his epistles. We also see the same exegetical approach used in the New Testament handling of the Old Testament in both the early midrashim and in much of the Qumran literature. In Jude's epistle we see the use of Midrash not only as exegetical method, but as literary genre. Midrash does not nullify the standard grammatical-historical exegetical methods the Reformers adopted from 16th century humanist scholarship, but in fact incorporates a more ancient grammatical-historical approach into the 'peshet' (simple meaning) interpretations but with a cyclical view of prophetic history expands into 'pesher' interpretations which is exactly what the New Testament does. This is not to say to say that the New Testament is Midrash but rather that it is "midrashic'; the Jewish authors of the New Testament inspired to write it handled handled exegesis in the same matteras the other Jewish religious exegesis broadly contemporary with it.

The use of midrashic hermeneutics in the New Testament has been recognized in conservative Evangelical scholarly circles for centuries since the Puritans. The first midrashic commentary having been written by John Lightfoot, the Puritan scholar. Bilderbeck and Strach pioneered research into New Testament midrash in Germany. Contemporary Evangelicalscholars have been drawn to a re-examination of Midrash in the New Testament due to the implications of the Qumran literature. These include TS Doherty, RN Longenecker, EE Ellis, and Moises Silva. A number of rabbinic scholars have likewise confirmed the Jewish-ness of the New Testament as Second Temple Period Jewish literature including JacobNuesner, David Flusser, W. Lachs, and Pinchas Lapide.

Unfortunately this area of hermeneutical scholarship has been wildly distorted by a few liberal higher critics who in their contorted analysis have actually departed from the fundamental principles of midrash in order to negate literal meaning and historicity, when in fact in actual midrash. Historicity and literal meaning (peshet) are pre-requisites for defining the expanded (Pesher) interpretations. These have included Barbara Thierring and John Sponge; but their supposed citationsof midrash are often held as bogus by serious theologians familiar withy the field. Some have viewed biblical uses of midrash through the prism of M. Goulder's lectionary hypothesis.

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Opposition to Christian use of midrash in The New Testament has also surfaced from non scholars posing as self styled academics but who themselves are not even literate in the biblical languages and are unqualified to offer an intelligent opinion in the matters they misrepresent themselves as having expertise. These are generally adherents to the Ruckmanite heresy which elevates the 17th century King James bible over the original texts and autographs in the original languages. Because they have no knowledge of the subjects they pontificate on their rather merit-less and often preposterous views are not published in scholarly journals but they do have small cultic following on the internet. These include Richard Engstrom, V. Dillen and B. Aho. Reformed scholar wrote an excellent refutation the 'King James Only' heresy which is the basis of Ruckmanite opposition to anything placing Hebraic scholarship above post Elizabethan English. Ruckmanism is also the counter part to British Israelism and the racist beliefs of The Identity Movement. Opposition to Jewish origins of the New Testament are also voiced by radical replacementist Calvinists (who are often seen as a result of the tone and content of their writings as anti semitic) such as the journalist Peter Golver. Glover likewise has no training in theology or biblical languages and his opinions are dismissed as unqualified by conservative researchers and he has no serious acceptance in the academic community. In light of the Dead Sea scrolls, few conservative Evangelical theologians would doubt thepresence of midrashic hermeneutics in the New Testament, though some like Waltar Kaiser would seek to explain it in terms of conventional typology while others would demonstrate typological exegesis itself is a cardinal component of midrash.

Midrashic hermeneutics have no placed in interpretation of inspired commentary - the epistles, because the epistles themselves often use midrashic method to exegete other scripture. Midrashic hermeneutics however are employed in the interpretation of narrative, apocalyptic, wisdom literature, and biblical Hebrew poetry.

Moriel places an emphasis on the need to re-connect hermeneutics with Sitz im Leben. The same as meaning of a biblical text must first be examined in light of its historical setting before it can be applied to our situation today, so too interpretation cannot be divorced from its historical setting in order to arrive at its proper meaning for today. In short, we must interpret scripture in the way that scripture does.

by James Jacob Prasch

Re: - posted by brothagary, on: 2012/1/28 4:12i havent read the whole artical ,,but i will point out what i see to be an error ,,,it was not only sinners falling to the ground under witfield and weasly and edwards ,,,but some believers as well ,,,,,this is clear in weaslys journal ,and edwards writings

apart from that ,so far i agree with what iv read ,,if i have the time ,ill post some of weaslys journal ,and edwards writings

Re: , on: 2012/1/28 6:02Yeah, if you read on you'll see that he doesn't discount every event of being "slain" or at least put to the ground, but he defines it a bit more clearly, and questions if what's cited in hyper Pentecostal/Charismatic circles are indeed moves of God at all, which he believes most usually are not (and I agree with his assessment).

As the author also so aptly pointed out, that usually when someone raises a voice of concern they're almost immediatelyviewed/dismissed as a cessationist (as evidenced even by this thread), when many times nothing could be further from the truth.


Quote:-------------------------EverestoSama wrote:... and questions if what's cited in hyper Pentecostal/Charismatic circles are indeed moves of God at all, which he believes most usually are not (and I agree with his assessment).-------------------------

See, this is what Â“getsÂ” me, EverestoSama... do you even move in Pentecostal circles or have you ever? If you do not, how can you honestly and so arrogantly make this Â“assessmentÂ”?

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I am wondering if Jacob Prasch moves in those circles as well, I found this about Jacob:Jacob Prasch, calls himself a "conservative Pentecostal minister with the Full Gospel Fellowship of Churches.Â” THOUGH QUERIED SEVERAL TIMES, Jacob has not answered nor clarified whether that Full Gospel Fellowship is the same as Full Gospel Fellowship of Churches and Ministers International. http://www.seekgod.ca/jpfriends.htm

EverestoSama, I do not advocate that every single experience of being Â“slain in the SpiritÂ” is of God but I do claim that it is a true experience for those who are not opposed to it as you seem to be.

Jesus himself said, Â“... your Father... sends rain on the just and on the unjust.Â” And it is the same of these experiences, we cannot disallow ALL supernatural experiences because of a few; well, you might but I cannot and will not. I will show love and help someone grow in the Lord instead of drawing a line in the sand with it.

God bless you,Lisa

Re: - posted by brothagary, on: 2012/1/28 6:27well the first church experance for me was oneness pentacostalism ,,and i am convinced at what was going on there is a false spirit

Re: , on: 2012/1/28 7:21I was well involved in Pentecostal circles. I still consider myself Pentecostal, but I distance myself from the extreme and un-Biblical ones, and had to remove myself from that foolishness.

And I'm not discounting every experience. I'm saying that I believe that a greater majority of what's being referred to has no solid Scriptural precedent, and many times is either the work of the mind or of a deceiving spirit.

I've been in plenty of services where this stuff goes on. I've had someone put their hands on my head and give me a push so I toppled over (though I know it can be done without any physical contact), and I used to defend these as legitimate moves of God as well. Trying to argue in their favor in the same way they're being defended in this thread.

No longer though.

"Do not exceed what is written" and "the fruit of the Spirit is.... self control" won out in the end for me.

And for the record I'm not against works of God, say if someone is moved to prostrate themselves before a holy God, if shown Biblically. I just said I'm against what's commonly referred to in most Pentecostal and Charismatic circles as "slain in the Spirit" as having any legitimate Scriptural footing.

Re: - posted by brothagary, on: 2012/1/28 7:35yea thats how i feel about it too bro

in many services you can see people acualy placeing ther hands where the so called charkras are

and in others they use a kew word like hipnoses does

iv seen hipnotists walk up to compleat stragers in the street and slay them so to speak ,,exacly like it is done in some chruches

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Re: , on: 2012/1/28 9:44murrclurr said: "I believe God can knock you backwards with no man touching you and I believe that you can just crumple to a heap on the floor why? because I have experienced it."

"Because I have experienced it".

That is the only thing that causes us as believers to know the supernatural is by experiencing it, otherwise we would never know. It would all be head knowledge and we'd be all like Pharisees.

Many men say they believe in God but don't know Him at all. We are not saying that falling forward or backward has anything to do with knowing God. As I said in an earlier post, the falling is a result of God touching us, it happens because the body cannot stand in the presense of God.

As men and women all we have is our testimonies. Each testimony is given in respect to experience. "I was a drunk, but God saved me". That is an experience, you can relate to others who are caught up in the same mess. "I was messed updrugs, but God sent a Christian and told me about Jesus." Again, another experience.

I prayed and prayed for a job and God gave me the one that I wanted, that is experience.

When we go to a job interview of a particular trade if we don't have experience the chances of us getting in are slim unless by chance he is taken under someone's wing as an apprentice so that he can gain the experience to do the job adaquately.

How do I know God is real, I believe by faith. That is an experience. Why? because not everyone believes that is true. To the atheist that is not enough just to believe.

Not all have experienced the healing power of God in their flesh. One day I had cramps and couldn't eat dairy products for a long time, but I was instantly healed in a prayer line. I know longer have a bible knowledge about God, He is working a work that has manifested into this realm giving me an experience to pray to Him for more.

Re: , on: 2012/1/28 10:10I was reading a post from BillTom about Kathryn Kuhlman hissing her words and I would like to say that I just love the way she would talk. She was very eccentric and I am of that same variety so I can relate somewhat. The way she would space her words is like hearing those old radio news broadcast when a leader would give a speech. The reason why I likethat is because I am not a good speaker. Some people can ad-lib, I cannot. Sing yes because the words are all memorized but to speak it has to come out slow and spaced because I have to make sure that I don't fumble my words and that will happen when I try to say something quickly. That could have been her handi-cap.

On another note about her, she never started any new doctrine. Her calling was to preach the gospel. If she ran with anyteaching it was because of the organization that other men headed up that she respected as speaking the truth, namely the Assemblies of God. When you listen to her meetings, all she is doing is sharing her testimony.

Benny Hinn on the other hand is a man like you and me caught up in the riches and being choked. When your popular and wealthy like that you tend to speak of things you ought not. Even the music has changed. I have all the music when he first started and the difference between what was played then and what is being played now is like night and day.

Everyone of us here can be just like him when money takes it's root in us. We are not exempt from it, it can happen to the most spiritual of us.

His wife left him. It had nothing to do with his official statement of her not being spiritual enough. They all have to find something to give as a reason for failure and it seems this is what they came up with.

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Re: , on: 2012/1/28 10:26Brothagary said: hey approved you used a text from john ,about nicodemes,,who at the time was not born again,and jesus rebuked him for acualy saying what he did ,and not noing what the new birth was ,,,,his word including the one you quoted was from a lost man with out the spirit of god

Neither was Simon who blessed Jesus when they took Jesus to the temple or Annas the prophetess. Their words count for something. Even the High Priest who was against Jesus spoke by inspiration of the Holy Ghost because he was the High Priest of that year it says. Neither was Peter when God inspired him to believe that Jesus is the son of God and he blurted those words out. This list is utterly long and your argument as brother Evertsama would put it, is a "straw man's argument".

"Satan is still the prince of this world ,the prince and the power of the air the spirit the worketh in the sons of disobedance"

No he is not. Satan WAS the prince of this world because of Adam handing it over to him by choosing to disobey Gods word and obeying the word of Satan. But now the second Adam who obeyed God's voice even to the end, took back that title. Christ is the Prince of this world.

The healings that take place in these cults are not healings as we know them to be, they are illusionary tricks that fool the senses.

By the way Brethren, this thread has been great. So far no one is getting hot under the collar.

Re: - posted by murrcolr (), on: 2012/1/28 10:37Jesus-is-GOD Quote

The Galatian 5 fruit is not how we're to test a false prophet.

If this were the test - Elijah and the others would have failed this modern day test.

When the children yelled out to Elisha, "Go up, thou bald-head" - what happened next?

In these days, the majority would ask, Where's this man's longsuffering, gentleness, love, etc.?

--------------

I agree with you it would appear that Elisha wasnÂ’t very long suffering, gentle or full of loveÂ… but if you back up a bit in my post

Quote: We donÂ’t use appearance to discern the true prophets from the false prophets they can have both have signs and wonders following them. If we were to only look at the outward manifestation of supernatural power

Quote: Appearances can be deceiving. Take time to inspect Â“the fruitÂ” this will give a more certain indication of the nature of the tree.

A true prophet will judge a situation if led to by the Spirit...

Acts 13: 8-11 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun fo

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r a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

The Action of the Sorcerer Â…Â…Â…..

Elymas the sorcerer withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.

The Fruit seen in the Sorcerer Â…Â…Â…Â…..

Â“You who are full of all deceit and fraudÂ” Acts 13:10 NASB

The spirit causing the fruit in SorcererÂ…Â…Â…Â….

thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord

The JudgementÂ…Â…Â…Â…Â…Â…

And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

Elymas the sorcerer character Â“the fruitÂ” was flawed he was full of all deceit and fraud because of the Spirit that was operating in the manÂ…Â…Â…

Hope that helps you understand my pointÂ…

Re: , on: 2012/1/28 10:39Evertsama said: "I've been in plenty of services where this stuff goes on. I've had someone put their hands on my head and give me a push so I toppled over (though I know it can be done without any physical contact)".

I've been there too brother. I had one man clutch my hands in such a way that I thought he was being affectionate having known my family but looking back he held them that way because he meant to push me down while praying for me. We rocked back and forth and finally he looked at me and said, "okay" and let go. I thought, "If I go down your coming withme". I wanted God to do the knocking over not a man.

He was a desperate man in a desperate situation because his church was waning in attendence and he needed something to prove that God was here to bring in more people. It's the ministers last ditch effort in the flesh to prove that God is here. A sad approach, but what he has forgotten most importantly is prayer. He has left his first love and stopped walking in obedience, at one time things would happen on their own by the hand of God. Now it's a show.

Sorry to having posted so many posts, there are so many interesting thoughts that everyone is saying that I don't want tomiss out on commenting. But I'll stop for now.

Re: - posted by mossman, on: 2012/1/28 11:01jonbartlett some of the verses you use here, are the ones I too was thinking of as I read this man's post. Jesus also in John 20:22 breathed on them and said receive the Holy Ghost.I hope people study the bible themselves instead of taking someone's word what is of God and whats not. Does the devil have counterfeit. Yes, but for him to have a counterfeit that must mean there is a real one out there. All I know is Jesus said if you being evil would give your children good gifts how much more will you heavenly father give you the Holy Ghost. If a Christian who is hungry for God ask for the Holy Ghost, God is not going to give them a demon. Jesus didn't say your know the false because they don't go by a church program or if they have them line up to pray for them or anything else. What He did say is that your know them by the FRUIT that they bear. I'll close with this. If we seek for the FRUIT of the Spirit with the GIFTS of the Spirit we'll be better off. Thanks JonBartlett for posting all those verses it save me a lot of time. God bless You.

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Re: , on: 2012/1/28 11:32

Quote:-------------------------Yes, but for him to have a counterfeit that must mean there is a real one out there.-------------------------

Sorry friend, but this is completely Scripturally unfounded. Can you provide some verses to outline the assumption that for every fake there is a genuine?

Re: - posted by murrcolr (), on: 2012/1/28 12:40

Quote:-------------------------Yes, but for him to have a counterfeit that must mean there is a real one out there.-------------------------

Sorry friend, but this is completely Scripturally unfounded. Can you provide some verses to outline the assumption that for every fake there is a genuine?

-------------------

In Rev 17:3, John was carried away in the Spirit and Â“I saw a womanÂ…Â” but I remember the last woman he saw in Rev 12:1, Â“And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sunÂ…Â” The first woman was attacked bya dragon. The second woman sat on a beast. The first woman was pregnant and giving birth. The second woman was sexually immoral.

I canÂ’t help but notice how SatanÂ’s side tries to copy and mirror GodÂ’s work.

Then again, I noticed the beast described as Â“it was and is not and is to comeÂ” Rev 17:8. Who does that remind you of? Alive, dead, and alive again? What a mockery. Of course, the difference is Jesus arose never to die again. The beast arose to go into destruction.

I canÂ’t help but notice how Satan strives to copy and mirror GodÂ’s work.

Re: , on: 2012/1/28 12:45Yes he does copy everything of God. But how is that to say that for everything fake, there must be a real version of it outthere somewhere? Those Scriptures don't address that issue.

For a simple question, what do you suppose is The Holy Spirit's real version of animal imitations (assuming that there aren't those on here that actually believe that mimicking an animal is a legitimate manifestation of the Holy Spirit)?

Re: - posted by mossman, on: 2012/1/28 13:14matt:7:15-23 2 co 11: 14-15 Also look how many times we're told in the bible be not deceive. All I'm saying is what we come involve with ask yourself is this teachings leading you to holiness. God bless you.

Re: - posted by Miccah (), on: 2012/1/28 14:53When I was saved, the Holy Spirit moved through my body. It felt what was like a rush of wind moving across my skin and through my body. Every time that the Spirit would move through me, I would loose my breath and cry. This lasted for a little over an hour, but it felt like forever. It was the most real experience that I have ever experienced in my entire life. I surrendered. The Lord won. He is victorious over my life.

I will say this. That day the Lord changed me. That day I went from death to life. The Lord called me into His Kingdom and revealed Himself to me. He took this broken piece of clay and began to form me into His image, so that I may be with Him for all of eternity.

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Over the years, I have had many people try to convience me that it was emotion, or it was not of the Lord. They will say things like "if that is what you believe..." or such.

Does this matter? No. I know whom I worship. I know it was the Lord. No man is able to change what I know to be thetruth. The Lord called me. The Lord touched me. How great is the rejoicing in Heaven when a sinner is brought to repentance.

Luke 15:6-7, "...Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!Â’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance."

This being said, I find the whole slain in the spirit foolishness, or barking like a dog foolishness as well. Does the Lord touch those who are His? Yes. Do we know all of His ways? No. But what we do know is that the Lord is not the author of confusion. We know that when He reveals Himself to His sheep, His sheep hear His voice. We also know that the Lord will NOT contradict His written word.

I do want to point out that I do not believe that all physical experiences are fake, but that the majority of slain in the spirit is manufactured by man. I do believe that the Lord chooses those who He wishes to reveal Himself to and in the ways that He wishes to do it. Rarely do we see moves of the Lord in the "slain" circles that produces any long term fruit. I praythat fruit is produced in these circles in spite of the flesh.

Re: - posted by murrcolr (), on: 2012/1/28 15:38Sama

Look at what you wrote.

Quote: Yes he does copy everything of God.

I haven't read on this thread anyone saying that everything that is going on is of God and the defend the false....

However I do see posts saying that there are genuine times that it does happen....

Any way last post on this thread...

Blessing to all........

Re: Approved - posted by Lysa (), on: 2012/1/28 17:11

Quote:-------------------------Approved wrote:(though I know it can be done without any physical contact)".-------------------------

Amen, I have seen this as well.

Quote:-------------------------Approved wrote:I thought, "If I go down your coming with me". -------------------------

This so made me laugh very hard out loud because I have been there too! I think weÂ’ve all had these experiences but instead of condemning the baby with the bath water.... we are still here!! Praise God! We know the real, which is supported by Jesus saying, Â“My sheep know My voice and none other will they follow.Â”

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God bless you Approved for your words!! Lisa

Re: , on: 2012/1/28 18:47I was once on a ministry team authorized to pray for folks. There seemed to be a powerful anointing upon me, and as Ilaid hands on people, there would be very odd effects....and some almost violent as they fell down...

The leadership of the venue told me to stop; I had to be pushing people down. I appealed to them that I would not touch another person again....but only speak and prophesy to them as I prayed for them. They agreed, and the Lord seemed to double my "power". I gently just spoke my prayer, and any prophetic word I felt, and it was like instant baptism. This went on for 3 days.

Before each prayer, and unto each person, before I prayed, I agreed with the person that the Lord Jesus had shed His Blood for them, and that any ministry, healing, or goodness came from Him, and Him only. I think the Lord honored this.

Re: - posted by sonofthunder (), on: 2012/1/28 22:09Sounds like this brother has both knowledge and experience. But more than that a sound biblical grasp of doctrine and of practise. keep up the good posts bro tom!!!

Re: - posted by OnwardUpward, on: 2012/1/30 7:47Friends,

I think it will be good if some of these physical experiences EVEN IF GENUINE happens when we are "alone with God" -in secret. When people gather for public worship, we need to remember what Paul admonished:

"Let all things be done decently and in order." - 1 Cor 14:40

I sometimes think that even altar calls given at the end of church meetings, asking the convicted ones to put up their hands or come forward is not necessary. After all, it is a personal thing between God and the sinner, right?

It is OK to share these personal supernatural experiences with other believers, provided it is done for the glory of God and edifying of the believers.

Angelin

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