\I AO If

- --- - -- --- - --

INTERVIEW OF: J INTERVIEWED BY: MCCUDDEN, SCOTT

RECORD OF INTERVIEW

Q1. Time two forty four (2.44) pm, it's on 'f.lllil'sti'a5i:th"e:tootO:Of:-A;O"gust-tw0.tnousand::> .and..:s.l~!(j:0.0.806): We're in unit four (4) of the Adelaide Remand Centre. Um what is it?

? Q2. Protection unit.

Q3. Protection unit. Scott Mccudden here from the Paedophile Task Force and if you just want to give us your name?

A - Er~ 04. Yes and we're just here for the purpose of getting some brief information about a

statement, about some allegations that you're making going back to Victoria and New South Wales is that correct?

A That's correct.

95. And do you want me to call youjHW r A That's fine.

Q6. Alright now. Where abouts were you born?

A I was born In er Canberra, in Campsey. Campsey Canberra District Memorial Hospital Campsey.

Q7. Okay what's your date of birth?

A REDACTED

Q8. No worries. So that makes you how old now?

A Forty two (42), forty three (43), about three (3) weeks time on Friday. After three (3) weeks from tomorrow.

STAT.0122.001.0528_R

Q9. What are_y_o_\Jr_par_en(s.n.arnes,?

Q10. And whereabouts do they live now?

A Er my father's living at. and my moth~r's atW Q11. Where's that?

A Er both In country Victoria.

0 12. Okay and do you have any brothers or sisters.

A Er two (2) other brothers and a sister.

Q13. And what are their names? Who are they?

rrW A U - or REDACTED

Q14. Yeah.

A About the age of forty (40), forty one (41). sure, I lose their age and stuff.

015. No that's alright

A And REDACTED I

REDACTED : bout, I'm not

Q16. Okay. Now so you're obviously brought over in was it Victoria or in?

A New South Wales.

017. New South Wales. And when, whereabouts were you living over there, can you remember?

A Er various places

018. Okay.

A In New South Wales but last known address um that was um I was told was-

019.

A

020.

STAT.0122.001.0529_R

A Yeah. It's a suburb.

REDACTED

022. Okay thanks. Alright and how old were you then when you were living there in Camps le?

.· A I was a baby.

023. Baby? Okay. So you moved around a fair bit did you say?

A Yeah they moved around a fair bit even in like er Victoria as well and just over here.

024. Okay. When did you come to Adelaide?

A Um I came back to Adelaide about eighty eight (88).

025. Okay. So you sort of been in between Adelaide and New South Wales and Victoria?

A Yeah.

026. Yeah. Where did you spend your schooling then?

A Er-Preston er a few schools in Victoria. And then two (2) schools, three (3) schools in Millicent.

027. Yeah.

A Back in the seventies (70s). Er that was the two (2) schools in New South Wales.

028. Do you remember the schools, do you know the schools you went to?

A Um Ferntree Gully Primary. Preston North Primary, Millicent South, Millicent High, ah sorry, Millicent South and Millicent North Primarys and then Wilson High.

029. Okay so when you were at Fern, was it Ferntree?

A Ferntree Gully.

030. Yeah. What years did you spend there?

A Um I'm not sure what years they were.

031. Yeah.

STAT.0122.001.0530_R

A Um, shifted out of there and then down to Preston.

032. Yeah that's fine we can find out those records by the schools, that's alright. Um okay.

A

Q33.

A

Q34.

A

The n.ame I was under when um.' .... .. wasld;•ttl'I ';J;•t@t;•i That'SiJd'1f' No worries.

I'd gone back to my birth name when I went for my driver's licence.

035. Okay. Now just what I've got here in front of me.um, some mention that <rn.ething:happene~::Wtren:}'ou:.wer.e-:.focrr:(4)Tears-ola;=:can you tell me about that?

A Um it was in a National Park, we were staying at a um a campsite it has a shelter. And the young light we had that came in was um really new and I woke up with someone um touching me down there. I couldn't see who ft was and that but I ran to the car.

Q36. Yeah.

A And locked myself if! the. C9r an<;f .!TlY p~rents wouJqn't fjDd [Ile U[ltil t~ey came to the car.

Q37. Soyou.

A That's why I locked the door and I wouldn't tell them.

Q38. Family camping trip was it?

A Um no I think we were out looking at fires and that and we just camped the night there.

Q39. Okay.

A that's all I can remember on that.

Q40. So how can you remember that when you were four (4 )? What makes that memory so vivid? Being 4 years old.

A Well we used to go out um when there was fires In the hills. The old man used to take us for drives and that. Like we would just leave.

Q41. Yeah.

A And there were some fires In the hills so we would just see the fires and that.

STAT.0122.001.0531_R

, _______ Q-=42. Rig~.t ·------ - - ---

A And plus the working road and things like that.

Q43. And you got no idea who this was?

A No I had no idea but there was a few other people um camping there as well.

044. Do you think It was your father?

A I couldn't tell, I couldn't see who it was cause and then it was dark.

Q45. That's alright no worries. And that was In Victoria? Ferntree Gully was it? That's when you were living at Ferntree Gully is that correct?

A Er I'm not sure where we were living at that lime.

Q46. Okay.

A I'd say it could be.

Q47. Um the next thing that's mentioned Is something that happened a few years after that?

A Yeah that was with a family friend.

Q48. Yeah what ca.n yoii tell m e about that?

A Um we were going on a picnic and that stage and my brother and I wer~ staying · and slept the night. and she was there fairly late, it was, we was basically almost tired and that, and instead of travelling back home. We stayed at a friends place for the night.

Q49. Yeah.

A Er in the girl's beds and I woke up to night, to her with her under the covers um touching me down, down below just like playing with, playing with my penis with her hands. And um I asked what she was doing, she said just go back to sleep. And for some unknown reason I just said to her suck on ... ... . 1 didn't even know. And that's, that actually happened before.

Q50. Yeah.

A I didn't know um what that meant

051. So you said.

A She she actually did.

Q52. Alright.

STAT.0122.001.0532_R

053. Yeah, so who was this, a friend?

A

054. Alright, okay s~ and REDACTED

A Yeah.

055. Their daughter.

A They were in there, urn I can even do an overhead sketch of the house, the rooms and that where we.

056. Yeah.

A Now I told my father about this so, after we um rekindled things, each spoke to them about it and they, they didn't want to have us ever staying there. Now it's after what, if it didn't happen um both my parents were divorced ......... Um we had the option to go back to Melbourne with them or we could stay in Millicent back in Millicent I offered to stay and I was told no. Told me to stay with a list of people in Miilicent, but I didn't want to go to Melbourne.

057. So how old were you when that incident happened?

A Er what no the choice of going to Melbourne and staying?

058. No when that girl was touching you in bed.

A (breathes) About six (6) or seven (7).

059. So that was what year?

A Um it would have been in the sixties {60s).

060. Um you can't remember exactly?

A No I can't remember exactly what dates.

061. So what, this was at their house or your house?

A Yeah it was their hou~e.

062. Their house?

A Their house.

STAT.0122.001.0533_R

063. And where abouts was that?

A Um in Prest, I think it was Preston or the suburb next to it.

064. Okay. A I can't remember.

065. Yes.

A An actual address.

066. And how did your parents and their parents, the l;Je•hll:what was the connection between the famllles?

A Um I'm not quite sure, er I think. My father used to work on the tramways.

067. Yeah.

A But I'm not sure about um Hta·m•: 068. Okay.

A Um cause I was young, I was young at that time.

069. That's alright. And can you remember how old the girls might have been?

A The oldest one, er would have been probably early teens. -The other one probably a year or two older than me. ·

Q70. Okay. ~nd which· one do you think it was? The older one or the young?

A Um .... there was three (3) girls. No there was I got. I'm not too sure.

071. That's alright.

A it was the oldest or the middle one.

072. Yeah.

A Um yeah.

073. We're probably. Well we're more here to concentrate on the New South Wales stuff. We're just going to touch on that stuff as you go through your background and things like that. So that, if you can't remember it's, it doesn't really matter. Just have a think about it and if you do we can get that infonnation later.

A Yeah.

074. Alright.

STAT.0122.001.0534_R

A No that's why I did do a sketchpad just in case, that's why it's all coming out and like some of it and then mo_re_(!ame_q_u_t.. _ _____________ _ _ ___ _

075. Okay.

A .................. Because I was constantly um collapsing in prison, for no apparent reason. I didn't understand why I was collapsing, not even the medical stuff, couldn't.

076. Yeah.

A And the scans I had done. And the only thing I put it down to is because um I was having memories of my past.

077. Did you ever mention this, when this happened, this girl did you ever mention that to your parents at all or anyone, did you mention it?

A I've told no one at all until I was arrested.

078. Yeah. Arrested when was that?

A Back in um my first um charge back in nineteen ninety one (1991 ). Um but not all that had come out.

079. So why, it's a common question that gets asked when you go to court, but why didn't you mention something then?

A Because um the look the threats and the bribes I've had.

080. And probably the girls as well, -what?

· A Er, she asked me not to say anything, said it was our secret.

081. That's alright.

A Because at the time too, I think I was um diagnosed slightly backward.

082. Back then you were?

A Yeah.

083. And who did, by a doctor or something?

A Um I'd say so because my parents, what I was told, from my birth, neither parents were allowed to see me for at least forty eight (48) hours. I've been trying to get records and that but l can't get records.

084. Were you put in a home somewhere were you?

A Er eventually when we went to New South Wales. We were put in the Salvation Army Horne.

STAT.0122.001.0535_R

1 _ _ _ ___ Q85._ Right.okay.soJhafs.where all.that.comes.from'.?-- -------- -- -- - - .

A New South Wales.

Q86. I'll get to that then. Um there's another mention here about something that happened in a cubby house.

A That was the same girl.

Q87. Can you tell me about that.

A Yeah my brothers and I were playing in the cubby house. I was like this side of ... teapot.

QBB. Yeah.

A And we were up and down. And of course um the table's near1he window and um and when we tilting over and as I was tiltin over and making the sound effects and that we had visitors, it was th • • • : I was sitting over like and she came up and knocked on the door an or er o come in, and we finished doing our ... song and that.

Q89. Yeah.

A And she asked the two boys to leave because she wanted to talk to me. And of course the two boys left and went inside and then um that's when it all started again . .

Q90. Was this the same girl that was.

A It was the sam_e girl that was staying at the other place.

Q91. So who are the other boys?

A Er the two brothers were - nd!iiii•M

092. Okay.

A They were the two asked to leave. Um, my sister was a baby at that time, or a toddler. Um.

093. And this was the cubby house, at whereabouts.

A Er at Preston.

Q94. Okay. It was at.

A No REDACTED

Q95. That was your house at the time is that right?

STAT.0122.001.0536_R

A That was the house we were living in.

096. Yep. And what did the girl do to you?

A Um she got talking for a bit, and then she asked me to pull my pants down, um which I did.

097. Yeah.

A Um and fondled with my penis and er she found three marbles and said oh put these, would you lay down so I can put these up your backside. So she did. And then she got called, she said I'll be back In a couple of minutes. Went in and I was still laying there waiting and she never came back. So I had to force the marbles out of myself. ·

098. Yeah. Then what-did you do?

A I then went it to pull my pants up and went back inside and find out where they went and I got told they'd gone home. And my mother asked why and I didn't say anything. I just went on to my room.

099. What was the -next time something happened to you, when was that?

A It would have been um, Sydney, boy's home.

0100. So obviously from. when you were living at Preston, where did the family move ·· from there?

A Er here In Adelaide.

0101. They moved over here to Adelaide?

A Yeah for about a few months. Er we attended Parkside Primary School.

0102. Yeah.

A And from there we er got Housing Trust down near Millicent, that was right near, that's where we er moved to.

0103. Okay. And how old, what sort of years was that when you went to Millicent?

A I think we moved down to Millicent about seventy one (71 ). So I would have been eight (8) nine (9).

0104. So you would have gone to Parkside Primary in about seventy one (71) or something all?

A Yeah something like that.

0105. So how long did you stay at Millicent?

STAT.0122.001.0537_R

A Until er seventy seven (77).

0106. Okay. So it was six (6) years you were there.

A Yeah.

0107. And what school did you go lo there?

A I went to Millicent North Shore, no Millicent South for a year.

0108. Yeah.

A Um teachers noticed was having that a few problems so I was referred to a um, to do a course, er, do some tests and they referred me to Millicent North Primary School in a special class.

0109. So when you say you were having problems, what do you mean by that?

A Er schooling, like with um school work and that.

0110. Okay.

A As in English and Maths.

011'1. Yeah.

A . And .things like that.

0112. That's alright Were you still leaving with your parents then?

A Mother.

0113. What to your father at that stage?

A Er that's the reason why we left Melbourne.

0114. Why ..

A My father was an alcoholic and he was very violent.

0115. Yeah.

A Um there were times at night time tliat I'd be asleep and all of a sudden I'd hear pots and pans been thrown around and that and I'd be the only one that would hear it all and the others would be sound asleep.

0116. Oh alright, why he was violent to your mum?

A Yes.

0 117. And so that Is why your mum left him?

STAT.0122.001.0538_R

/:. __ "(eah._There.was.aUimes.he_was .violent towards.us. _________ _ _ _

0118." Yeah.

A Um I actually coppe(j a buckle, a ... buckle around my backside twice, ln three places. It got to that stage that I was that shit scared of him.

0119. Yeah.

A That I kept breaking up in these lumps.

0120. And you still kept contact with your father now?

A Not now.

Q121. Cause you said, where did you say you went after then?

A Um Kilmore In Victoria.

0122. That's alright. Alright so for Millicent you reckon about seventy seven (77).

A About seventy seven (77).

Q123. Yeah where did you go after that?

A Um New South Wales.

Q124. You went back to New South Wales?

A Yeah . .

0125. Why's that?

A Um I needed to get away from my father because he found out where we were living at that time and so we shifted once again.

0126. Yeah.

A And went back to Sydney. Hopefully er to get away from him and also er chase ·following the person she was having an affair with as well.

0127. Um and um, when you went to Sydney whereabouts did you go?

A Um we stayed at a Women's Hostel at Glebe, towards Glebe.

0128. Yeah.

A And then from there we moved to Darlinghurst. ........ where my brother and I attended the Walkleys High School.

STAT.0122.001.0539_R

0129. Which High School?

A Walkleys.

0130. How do you spell that?

A Um, V, V-0-L-C-U-E-S.

0131. Okay.

A It's towards the er heads of Sydney.

0132. Okay that's alright.

A Um and then, at the end of that year, other stuff was getting worse and we'd be placed In homes.

0133. Okay so that was what? Seventy seven (77}, or seventy eight (78}?

A Seventy eight (78}.

0134. That was the end of seventy eight (78}?

A Er no er, it would have been, no seventy seventy six (76) we moved over, seventy (77). seventy eight (78). It would have been part of seventy eight (78) at Forcluse and the rest of it was um Kings ... High.

0135. So when you were at Forcluse, how long did you stay at that high school for?

A I think It would have been about a month or two.

0136. Maybe two (2) months? And that was?

A And that's when we went to King, ah Bexley North. The Salvation Army Home.

0137. When you were at that high school would that have been the start of the year or the end of the year?

A The start of the year.

0138. The start of the year. So It was one two terms or ........ ?

A No I'm not sure.

Q139. Na just a couple of months that's all. And you said your mum got sick what happened to her?

A Um she lived by herself when she got put into homes.

0140. Alright. Why was she living by herself? Why did you put her in a home?

STAT.0122.001.0540_R

A Oh ere r from what she was telling us, she was having troubles.with her heart.

0141. Alright

A She couldn't cope with the 4 of us. So we, the three of us boys got shifted to the Salvation Army Home, and my sister got shifted to ... Home.

0142. Okay. Was your mum having treatment or anYthing like that?

A Um she was given t.ablets she was taking.

(Tape stopped and restarted to leave room and re-enter for change of visitors)

0143. Okay now where were we up to I think that you just moved to New South Wales and started to go to the Salvos home cause your mum was getting sick over, was it Rr9bl~ms wl~h her heart?

A Angina.

0 144. So that was when, when are when do you say that would have been?

A That would have been around about seventy eight (78).

0145. Seventy eight (78}. Middle of the year, the end of the year?

A Er towards er probably about March.

- - ·- . ·- -· 0 146. March, April of seventy eight (78}?

A Yeah.

0147. So you got put into Salvation Army boy's home?

A Yeah.

0148. And where was that?

A Bexley North.

0149. Bexley North. That's in New South Wales? And was that everyone in your family got put there?

A Er just us three boys.

0150. Just what happened to your sister?

A She went to the Red Cross home um towards Coogee.

0151. Okay. And you would have been what, about fourteen (14) then?

A Er thirteen (13), fourteen (14), close to that.

STAT.0122.001.0541_R

_____ __;otey~ .. _t.l rigt:i_t_t~ll_i:n.e_then_wlJ~(s_happ~n~dJhere'J _______________ _

A Um after a few months of being there I um, we were um like we had a groundsman at that -stage, after hours and that and um he asked me if um would I like to go outside and look at the stars and took the binoculars and that and the moon and that, and he showed me like he had a pair of knives, he showed me where to look and that and there was a house across the road er he used to watch this girl, with the binoculars in the window.

0153. Yeah.

A Er to um he used to watch her undress and that. Couldn't actually see right because of the blind um, made out It was a female and after that they showed me how to use a um CB which I already knew how, when I was In Millicent and um and-he asked, asked me to come into the old um change rooms-Which was falling down and that's when he pulled his penis out, which was about that long.

0154. How long was that?

A Er I'd say probably maybe between six (6) to nine inches on the slack.

0155. Okay not erect?

A No not erect yeah. Probably about two (2) or three (3} In diameter.

0156. Yeah.

A And he got me to suck on it, tried to force it down my throat. And when he tried doing that, I just pulled away, but no he wanted to keep going and I said no.

0157. Yeah.

A And er he told me that if I ever wanted money or anything like that just let me know. He bribed me to clamp up about it. ·

0158. So when he took you into these old ....

A Old change rooms.

0159. The old change rooms.

A Yeah like a swimming pool.

0160. Alright.

A That was never used.

0161. Yeah.

A It was empty.

STAT.0122.001.0542_R

·---- 01.62._8od.these.change .rooms were .connected .with.the.swimming.pool.and.the ------- - 1 ground?

A Yeah.

0163. Yeah. So he got you into those change rooms?

A Hmm.

0164. And what actua, what did he do? Did he say anything or?

A Um I can't remember exactly what was said and that but he um said I want to show you something. And he unzipped his pants and flopped out his penis.

0165. Do you remember what he was wearing?

A No not quite. I think he was wearing a checked shirt and jeans, I'm not too sure.

0166. Yeah. So he's taken his penis out and he said suck It to you.

A Yeah.

Q167. Did he force you or?

A Um not that I can recall.

0168. So he put his penis into your mouth?

A Yes.

0169. Then what happened?

A He got me to suck on it which I was and then he tried to shove.it down at the back of my throat. I think that's when he was trying to force It down and that. And I was gagging and I just pulled off, pulled away from him and pushed away.

0170. did he ejaculate?

A No no never got to that part.

0171. So you pulled away from him?

A Yeah.

0172. And what happened then?

A Um he wanted me to keep going, I said no. And he told me not to say anything.

0173. Yeah.

STAT.0122.001.0543_R

A But he was bribing me with money.

0174. How much money did he give you?

A No more than a dollar.

0175. A dollar?

A Yeah. Um. The next day like I had a school with him, we used to walk down to Bexley shops to um get the bus.

0176. So after that, on that particular occasion, can you remember, was there anything else that was going on in your life that ....

A I'd met. I'd met a girl and we just started walking to school.

0177. Yeah.

A Together um, because I was constantly getting picked on at school and that. And I just stayed in one area.

0178. So this, so that incident in the change rooms was about a month after you first got there was it?

A Um I would say probably about a month, probably maybe two (2) or three (3).

0179. Two (2) or three (3) months?

A Yeah .

. 0180. Alright.

A And that's when I started getting um, getting violent toward the other kids as well. I basically had one in a a I strangled one top of the stairs. I was ready to push him down because he was stirring me, he was younger than I was. I just I pulled myself together and no way, I'm not pushing him down.

0181. Did you tell anyone about the gardener?

A No told no one.

0182. Do you know of anyone else that may have gone through the same thing with this gardener?

A No not at all.

0183. Did he, do you remember his name at all?

A Onl, no first name is Peter. And that's why I was trying to get the details ......... .

0184. How old would he have been?

STAT.0122.001.0544_R

·------~--In .his.twenties .(20s) .at.least.

Q185. Can you describe him?

A Not now.

Q186. That's alright. So this home, tell me a bit about the home, the set up of the home and what 1hings.

A d(s:aJ.ilVOstorey red·brick:-l:Jfi'la"tileo;:tilea"f0:9f.:.EUlo.rms at ~acit'Ler:io::Jd® 1offic~~o-and'irltheii'iiddle-:-We·h·a-g:a er·~11.:at:tba6aCltabCLwe.alSO::h1iOJ

@"fdining room j~l1ing.2ffrne_y_f!l .• _tli~)'fiaii'i]ftillding.-Er.t~wa·swstalrs·atj t~ck•of'the·buildln'§J ·

0187. Yeah.

A And a~r:case.dowFJ.inside·the·buildjr;ig:as.well:

Q188. So how many floors were there?

A It was only the two (2) floors,tthe~g~0unEFBFrd:tlre:tdp:f1rror.~

Q189. Okay yeah.

A As to how many rooms, um'l:tnii'ii(ffier-e-woul'Q.nave.oeen-al5out.ter.i.(.:t:Oroo_e:a-® . \Wing' _ . ..

0190. How many people would share a room?

A Er two (2) I think. if~o:(2):to.a.r.oom~

Q191. Yeah. Single sex or was it all?

A No it was acitqy~S.~

Q192. All boys yeah. And it was run by the Salvation Army. Can you remember any members of the staff or anything like that?

A Er the person in charge was captain Cockerall (or spelt Cockerill).

Q193. Cockerall.

A Yeah he was a large person.

Q194. Yeah.

A Er he lived in the house um on the grounds.

Q195. When you say large you mean?

STAT.0122.001.0545_R

A As in build.

0196. Yeah.

A Fairly large. Um I can't remember his wife's name. Er there was m and -- · They also lived in a house on the grounds.

0197. Yeah.

A And there was Lieutenant ~ho I believe now Is a captain . .

0198. Right.

A Um In the Salvation Army as well.

0199. Okay.

A And there's two (2) other staff members.

0200. Yeah.

A Um they weren't Salvation Army. Um Tony Giles, he was in Melbourne. He met us down at the railway station and there was Kevin Francis Bell. His last location that I know of was Cairns.

0201. Okay.

A That's where he said he was heading ..

0202. Yeah.

A In a home um was being, got converted into a Training College.

0203. Alright is there anything else about this gardener that you can remember?

A Er· no I don't know if he had any marks or tattoos.

0204. Yeah. Was he working there when you first got there?

A I believe so.

0205. Yeah. And how long did you stay at the er Boy's home for?

A Er until it was transferred er like when the numbers got small. Er until it was transferred to Marrickville, at a place called Sunnyset Lodge which used to be an elderly home:

0206. What do you mean it was transferred there?

A Well Sunnyset dwindled so we had to move out of the home.

STAT.0122.001.0546_R

0207. Okay,

A So it wasn't enough to keep the boys there.

0208. Yeah.

A So they converted it into a training college for the Salvation Army and we moved into a um private residence.

0209. And when, when did that happen? How long ago?

A The following year.

0210. The following year?

A Yeah. As soon as the Christmas holidays.-

0211 . Okay so, you got there about March, April and then come Christmas time or the end of that year in seventy eight (78).

A Yeah we stayed, we stayed with some people over the Christmas break.

0212. Yeah.

A And they were doing the move to the new home.

0213. Who were those people ihat you stayed-with'.?.

A I can't remember their names but I do remember that er they drove an old e type Jag.

0214. Yeah.

A

0215. Were they connected to the Salvos.

A Um no I'm just urn people that um volunteered to take some er people that weren't going anyway for Christmas.

0216. You stayed there with your brother's did you?

A · f'lo it was only just me.

0217. Okay.

A Um but they were, they were very good people.

0218. Yeah and when you left to go to Marrickville do you remember the gardener staying behind or?

STAT.0122.001.0547_R

A No he never, he never went across.

0219. So he stayed in the grounds maybe?

A No I think he might have been put off, I don't know.

0220. Yeah.

A It was over Christmas tlme so J don't know what happens.

0221. Next year, the next time you mentioned something happened? Was it at Marrickville?

A Yeah !twas Marrickville.

0222. Can you tell me where and when that was?

A Um we were in er two rooms. I ended up ........ in a single room with two people, like there was two to a room. And um one of the boys was staying in with me. His name was IHC ~

0223. Yeah.

A Um I woke up one night with him um playing with my penis. And um I told him that um I didn't want to do anything and he just told me to shut up and that and er and then afteiwards he wanted me to screw him up the rear end and I couldn't get it up·er penis, but er he did with me.

0224. Yeah.

A And er he threatened me that if I said anything that I'd soon cop it. So I said nothing. That's why I hadn't said anything.

0225. This~· how old was he?

A About the same, about er about the same age, a year older.

0226. Alright. How what can you describe him?

A Er back then, I'm not sure, I know~l'lad·btackfl~.i_r;:b.rown:"eyes\ face features that I can't remember. ·

0227. Um so this Is at Marrickville Salvation Army, so this is obviously your home?

A Yeah.

0228. Can you tell me about that home?

A Um as far as upstairs at the back er driveway, come down the back and set of block of flats out the back, there's a block of flats er next door I think it was about three or four storey high.

STAT.0122.001.0548_R

0229. Yeah. - --- -- -

A Er has on the other side a block of flats at the back with two storey. Um there's a front entrance, er stairs, um facing the front entrance just going straight up.

0230. Yeah.

A Um two (2), three (3) officers at one side, lounge um, walk In was on the left. So there were one (1) two (2) or three (3) officers on the right. Er out the back, turn left down the passage to the kitchen, dining room to the left, upstairs there was um toilet, er, shower, bathroom at one end and the door just followed around.

0231. Was that the dormitory was It? How was It set up at this place?

A Eras in?

0232. Well how many people shared the room?

A Er usually two (2).

0233. Two (2)?

A Except for one on the front, they were singles, but there was only one person in one of those, rooms.

0234. Betwee11 ther~wa~jµst _you and ~in one room was it?

A Yeah.

0235. Did they have room numbers or anything like that?

A No.

0236. Na. Was it called Sunnyset Lodge. Is that right?

A Yeah.

0237. That was the name of It? That was the name of the whole place?

A That was the name of the whole the whole building.

0238. Yeah, alright And you, where you were sleeping was there different units at different like you know like you know the Remand Centre, there's thirty two (32} units, was the Somerset Lodge anything llke that?

A No just like as I said on the ground floor.

0239. Yeah.

STAT.0122.001.0549_R

A And just the living area upstairs. Er there was two officers er two workers that •- --- - - ---stayed.- One-was-the Salvatlon-Army-efficer1 Mr Ghris-Green and·his·wife.- They----- -

were ............... flight of stairs out the back round the back part here,

0240. Yeah.

A On the side. Er It's Jlke a little flat where him and his wife in. Their son and • • • 1

Iili!that was in another, I think something else, no I think • 1 • : no • • • • mwas still, was there er too I think at the end of um seven y nine 79).

0241. And when this Incident withlHC rappened in the room, how long had you been staying at that lodge for? · ·

A It would have been about the middle of the year.

0242. Middle of the year?

A Yeah.

0243. So it would have been seventy nine (79) say? And had you been sharing a room all the time with~

A No I had anqther um another er male in there at a different time.

0244. Were you in that same room though?

A Er not all the time, I was round by the other side sharing a room with my br-other.

0245. Okay:

A And then he was in another room, he was in another room I was sharing with someone else and then he came and stayed in my room, the other person stayed in the other room, um but he took off ... with my brother and someone else and then I was shipped over the other side.

0246. So your brother ran away?

A Yeah he took off.

0247. And then when he ran away, you um, you were put into this new room?

A Yeah.

0248. And that's with who was it originally?

A Er I think it would have been 1 LH_c __ ___.f first and then REDACTED -: fter.

0249. So when you moved in withfR'CI. can you remember when that just in the middle of the year was that WnarYou can remember?

A Yeah roughly about the middle of the year.

STAT.0122.001.0550_R

-----~250:-So-howfong-after·moving-into·tharroom;-did "this-liapp-en?

A · Probably three (3) or four (4) weeks, maybe six (6) weeks later.

Q251. And what was~ like to you before that?

A He was alright.

Q252. Yeah.

A And once again•after:.tt:iat-:incideot:hai:ipen.El.d..±just:started:ge,tti1Jg;-:getting:ln!g 'lt(~1:1blei-1.J_m_.t.ac;;tually.!1;>.arrica·ded:rnyiseltio1h'e:room,.

Q253. Yeah.

A 1B9:pust:'iir.rg~tl'.fe:wai::di::qbe·_Qp_~·g~st.the-Elo.Qf::ar:id:QJJshing·tfie.bed;in·be~iDd:tb.e> itwo'!15ectS:iIT:heblno:tne-wararof5e)

0254. Was that to stop~?

A That was to stop the men both from coming in. Even by the window, I locked it from the inside.

0255. And how, was that the only time that something like that happened was it?

A - - Um 1hat was roughly-about the last time. ·

0256. Urn something mentioned about something about four on occasions or something.

A That would have been on those occasions. Oh my godfather was the other one. Um he, there's no use doing anything with him.

0257. Yeah.

A He's been dead and bi.tried since the sixties (60s).

0258. That's fine but it just says here four (4) occasions of fellatio and anal rape by ]He I

A Yeah that would have been yeah but..

0259. But did that occur?

A That um that was the last time in those incidents.

0260. But did that. Were you saying on four (4) different nights something happened, is · that right?

STAT.0122.001.0551_R

A Yeah. Four (4) different nights. They weren't after each other, different •--- ---- - - occasions. - - - ·--- --

0261. Over what span of time?

A One (1) two (2), two (2) nights and four (4), a week later.

0262. So within a weekEI done that to you four (4) times?

A Yeah.

0263. During the night is it? Is there a particular time in the nlght that?

A It really when everyone is asleep. So anytime after midnight.

0264. Would lights go out?

A After the lights were out.

0265. When the blinds were down, can you remember what time?

A Um we:w.ere:always:-la'...Q.~d~aboot:nlr.fe~tliirfy.~9';3"0);::teR o'.cl0cK.(.?ro·:·o-o)":S6:af.iY> {time:--after.:that:.

0266. Yeah. And so just going back to the first occasion, what did, were you guys In bunks or single beds?

A ~grn:bec!S':'l

0267. Single beds?

A The rooms were um about that, there'd be a wardrobe um, a bed and tucked in just behind it another bed over here with dressing tables.

0268. Beds on either side.

A Yeah.

0269. Comers so ~got out of bed.

A Was up there behind.

0270. He'd got out of bed in the middle of the night and you'd woken up and he's on top of you.

A No he was actually playing with my penis.

0271 . He was playing with your penis?

A He was kneeling down beside my bed.

STAT.0122.001.0552_R

0272. Okay. And did he have, did you have pants on or? - - --- - -- ----- - - - - ~-

A Pyjama pants. Yeah they were those lace up ones.

0273. What, were they pulled down or?

A No they were up.

0274. They were up? So he had his hand underneath did he?

A Actually through the slip piece.

0275. Okay.

A ... those tie up.

0276. Yeah. So he was masturbating you?

A Er I don't know if he was masturbating or just playing with it.

0277. Not sure.

A Er it was, I know he had his hands down there.

0278. Yeah. Not sure, that's alright. And how long was that going on for?

A · Not sure, probably. ·I don't know how long before that. ·l:Jm before I-woke up. ··

0279. That's alright Look that's going to be time.

STAT.0122.001.0553_R