Rikki Wemega-Kwawu

Spiritual Awakening ‘Ifa practitioners do not regard their spirituality as a “religion” in the Western sense. It is instead a way of relating to spiritual energy that helps individuals discover and stay on their path (as opposed to “The Path”). The tradition is based on staying in balance with our community and with the world itself, with our ancestors and our personal spiritual energies. Practitioners are encouraged to employ common sense and personal responsibility, to appreciate the sacred in everyday life, and to integrate all aspects of being, namely the physical, the emotional, the mental and the spiritual’. Iyanifa Mahealani A place to learn and share wisdom by: Ancestral Voices: Esoteric African Knowledge

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You, Kofi Gamamiwosror Agorsor, Adeola Olagunju and 5 others like

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Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju Wow. Superbly put. I think it detracts from schools like Ifa, though, to present them as

non-religious and to describe their metaphysics in such terms from

non-animate conceptions in science as 'energies'. An adequate understanding of Ifa is impossible outside the fact that it

is based on the notion of interactions between forms of sentience, of awareness, of which the human being is only one.

The focus of Ifa on dialogue between the immortal self or ori and the

orisa or deities, and between these and ase, the cosmic force that enables being and becoming, as this dialogue is mediated through the odu, who are described as manifestations of Odu, herself a spiritual agent, and in one view, the wife of the orisa Orunmila, whose wisdom underlies the system, takes you beyond the inanimate world represented by the concept of 'energies'.

Ifa is significantly an oracle, implying it is meant to address the

recognition of limits to human rationality. This recognition does not imply living life in terms of the irrational,

however creative, but achieving balance between that which we can control and that which is beyond our grasp.

I suspect that efforts to despiritualise schools like Ifa and some

schools in Buddhism and Hinduism is influenced by the fall in prestige of religion in the West.

Mainstream Western thought, however, might not be particularly

fertile ground for models of harmony between various ways of knowing in terms of the purely mental, emotional and imaginative, what the human being can control, and that which he cant control but which shapes his existence.

Asian philosophies, religions, literature, and visual and performance

arts and cultures look to me a more fruitful zone for such models. 28 September at 21:54 · Like · 1

Kofi Gamamiwosror Agorsor ‘Ifa practitioners do not regard their

spirituality as a “religion” in the Weste...how? and why?Religion father of all life 28 September at 22:25 · Unlike · 2

Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju You put it well, Kofi Gamamiwosror

Agorsor 28 September at 22:30 · Like · 1

Kofi Gamamiwosror Agorsor ‘Ifa practitioners do not regard their

spirituality as a “religion” in the Weste...how? and why?Religion father of all life 28 September at 22:41 · Unlike · 1

Rikki Wemega-Kwawu Oluwatoyin, I really don't think any

association of Ifa/Afa with the phenomenon of 'energies' is an attempt to dispiritualize it, as you put it. Far from it. Beyond all the fables, allegories, oracular associations of all sacred religions, which, in essence, are meant to humanise religion and make it easily comprehensible and accessible to humanity; beyond all the physical phenomenon are different energies at play, vibrating at different levels and frequencies. Quantum Physics is unravelling this phenomenon, which has always been known to religious sages from the beginning of time. Everything in the cosmos is all about energies, vibration, frequencies, from the sub-atomic particle to our entire universe and universes beyond. The Oracles are embodiments of energies vibrating at higher frequencies beyond human visibility. If man is able to raise his vibration, through prayer, ritual, etc, man can access the vibratory plane of the Oracle and be able to receive and interpret messages from this Oracle. What is common knowledge about Ifa/ Afa, written about in books, are often the exoteric teachings. It would interest you to know that in the Inner Shrine of Ifa/ Afa, which is only accessible to advanced adepts, the phenomenon of energies, vibration, movement, etc., form the core of the teachings. This is not peculiar to Ifa/ Afa. In fact, you find it in all the major religions and sacred traditions of the world, from Zen Buddhism, Hinduism, Theosophy, Christian Mysticism, Sufism, name it. 28 September at 22:59 via mobile · Unlike · 4

Moyo Okediji There is no ONE Ifa understanding, with doctrines

controlled from the center. 28 September at 23:46 · Unlike · 4

Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju Vital -'There is no ONE Ifa

understanding, with doctrines controlled from the center.' That decentralisation of interpretation is critical to its vitality. It could be valuable, though, to examine the relative strengths of various perspectives. 28 September at 23:50 · Like · 2

Moyo Okediji The idea of relative strengths does not apply. Ifa

manifests itself within cultural contexts, each valid and succinct for its functions. Of course Ifa practitioners come together to celebrate and perform. Ifa emphasizes Iwa, which frowns on egregious showmanship. Yesterday at 00:06 · Edited · Unlike · 3

Rikki Wemega-Kwawu Absolutely, Moyo! There is always the eXoteric

interpretation, which deal with the allegories, the external phenomena, the surface and the ordinary meanings. To every exoteric interpretation, there is the eSoteric, which deal with the more profound, metaphysical understanding, issues with the elements, energies, vibration, frequencies, transmutation, synchronization, etc. Yesterday at 00:05 via mobile · Unlike · 3

Rikki Wemega-Kwawu The outward performances of Ifa/Afa may

vary from one cultural context to the other, the essence is one and remains the same, despite the apparent outward differences. Yesterday at 00:15 via mobile · Unlike · 3

Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju How accurate is Moyo that the

Ifa/Afa/Fa tradition is best understood in terms of culturally situated perspectives?

That has some value as a sociological description but its limitation

emerges in the fact the system is a unified system within its cultural distinctiveness because it demonstrates unifying features across these varieties.

Critical examination and comparison of various understandings of

both the unifying and the culturally distinct features is vital for refining understanding.

For too long, the system has been related with under the shadow of

traditions outside the scope of critical examination. This has delayed their assimilation into the global body of knowledge

that may be approached from various perspectives, beyond the limitations of ethnic or faith affiliations, clouding them as no go areas for critical examination of the claims they make, and of claims made on their behalf.

Rikki's effort to describe Ifa/Afa/Fa cosmology in terms of language

derived from science is valuable as an interpretive model, but he uncritically conflates spiritual and scientific cosmologies.

My next response will examine the world of difference between them

in terms of their metaphysics and epistemology. For the moment, I briefly examine Riki’s claims in terms of the

sociology of knowledge. On what grounds is Rikki arguing for a distinction between exoteric

and esoteric thought in terms of a difference between allegories, on one hand, and 'metaphysical understanding that speaks in terms of 'energies, vibration, frequencies, transmutation, synchronization', on the other'?

Rikki is correct in distinguishing between exoteric and esoteric

thought but his characterization of these differences in the terms he proposes and the metaphysics they represent is not justifiable in relation of any of the schools of thought he references, from Ifa/Afa/Fa to Zen Buddhism, Hinduism, Theosophy, Christian Mysticism and Sufism.

The terms and concepts represented by 'energies, vibration,

frequencies, transmutation, synchronization' represent an effort by a style of Western thought to interpret spirituality by adapting scientific concepts.

That approach is not representative of any of the religions, at any level

of penetration into their meaning, as this is demonstrated both by my personal experience, which spans study and at times, practice of most of those systems at various levels, and the works coming out of those schools.

It represents an effort at cultural imposition, trying to speak for a

school of thought in terms of concepts and their associated metaphysics that are alien to those schools, insisting that these concepts represent a hidden reality not discussed in public.

The esoteric dimension of these systems are often well known and

they don’t speak in that language. Within these systems, the esoteric is often less an issue of

concealment of information, as of style of engagement with the subject.

I will try to explain this later in terms of my understanding of forms of

esotericism. Those concepts adapted from science presuppose a particular cultural

and linguistic context in which the terms were part of public discourse before being adapted for describing spirituality.

This culltyral context is that 20th century Western civilisation, not

perhaps even the 19th. These terms are relatively new in the history of civilisation, while those

religions are centuries older. I will clarify and expand this point in relation to the metaphysical

distinctions between spiritual and scientific cosmology and with reference to forms of esotericism. Yesterday at 10:01 · Like

Kofi Gamamiwosror Agorsor Dear Oluwatoyin thanks so much.may

be i don't understand you point.but,....Efa/ifa gave birth to science,and you can find all science knowledge in Fa...so it's not an effort by a style of Western thought to interpret spirituality by adapting scientific concepts at all. Yesterday at 17:35 · Unlike · 2

Moyo Okediji What is the point in discussing with someone who

argues for the sake of argument, Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju? I see none. Yesterday at 18:03 · Unlike · 2

J Michael Walker An old saying I learned growing up in the South was

"Never pass up an opportunity not to speak"....Yesterday at 18:52 · Unlike · 3

Moyo Okediji Thank you Kofi Gamamiwosror Agorsor for your

thoughtful contribution. Yesterday at 19:19 · Unlike · 1

Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju Moyo Okediji disappoints me at times. I have observed he cannot sustain a debate on Ifa. The last debate we had he kept falling back on his knowledge of

Yoruba as indicating why he should be seen as a person who had something special to offer on the discipline.

If he had provided the space, I would have suggested how to better

package himself as an Ifa teacher. The old ethnic qualification has become outdated, but since he has

chosen to be dismissive, I wont help him. Bro, this is a subject to which I have dedicated my life. You clearly have no idea of the kind of commitment and scope being

evoked here. What did I say to Rikki that is such a big deal? Did I quote any texts? I can do that without thinking, in each religion he discussed. Some of

the most recondite, some of the most arcane works. On top of that, a good no of them are right here in my library but I

wont bother to open them in order to discuss their contents. I can also add my own experiences exploring these paths. I beg lef matter, as would be said in Nigerian pidgin. Because of what I consider to be this challenge I will make sure I post

my quickly my promised follow up, which I had actually written before my last response to Rikki.

Knowledge grows best by open exploration. We need exposure to true spiritual adepthood, the kind that may

sends shivers down your body, that will provoke you to wonder about

your being,that will reorient you from your foundations, and scholarship of depth, analytical rigor, synthesizing power and global scope, these demonstrating unmistakable grounding in the deeps and range of the human spiritual experience.

I recommend the works of Mircea Eliade, such as his Patterns in

Comparative Religion, Rudolph Otto’s The Idea of the Holy and Immanuel Kant’s Critique of Judgment and Critique of Practical Reason, and Isaac Newton’s Principia Mathematica, particularly the section the ‘General Scholium’, among scholars who are really at the heart of it in the study of spirituality, even Kant the greatest modern Western philosopher, according to one view, and Newton, the greatest scientist ever, as one view holds.

A very impressive contemporary thinker along related lines is scientist

and philosopher Paul Davies, as in his The Mind of God, his Information and the Nature of Reality, among other wonderful works.

Among practitioners I recommend Aghor Pir, Meditations of a Tantric

Sorcerer, his historic blog which he has taken down but which a wise soul placed as PDF files on Scribd.

This is the kind of stuff one should read then you would have stood at

the foot of the Himalayas and will not be taken aback by seeing a hill bigger than the ones you have seen before.

Meanwhile, I invite all readers to the group Studying Mark Dyczkowski

: https://www.facebook.com/groups/markdyczkowski/?fref=ts where I post everyday a quote, often with a commentary, from the

work of Mark Dyczkowski, one of the greatest writers on spirituality in our time, a luminary in the study and practice of particular schools of Hinduism. Yesterday at 20:39 · Edited · Like · Remove Preview

Moyo Okediji Have you found the secrets of the atomic bomb in

books? Or the secrets to the Mac, I-pad, etc? You think the secrets of Ifa is in books, Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju? Good luck. Yesterday at 20:46 · Unlike · 2

Rikki Wemega-Kwawu @ Oluwatoyin: Thank you so much for the

book and link references. I've never doubted your genuine interest in and scholarship of religious and metaphysical studies. However, in your follow-up submission, I'm afraid, you've deviated considerably from the substantive issue at stake, that is, the phenomenon of the New Physics or Modern Science, being totally alien to the Ifa/ Afa System of Knowledge, as well as parallel belief systems, like Zen Buddhism and Hinduism. As I intimated earlier, Science has always been an integral part of Ifa/Afa, Zen, Hinduism, etc., from the beginning of time. and not a Western imposition as you seem to suggest. To illustrate with s couple of examples, the Dogon tribe of

Mali, as far back as the 14 hindreds, could identify and trace the part of the satellite, Sirius, around the universe. There's a chart in the British Archeological Museum to confirm that. It wasn't until barely forty years ago that Western Science, with its latest, most sophisticated telescopes, could identify this astronomical body. The African had a sound knowledge of Science, Mathematics, Physics, Astronomy, Astrology, etc. Modern Science and the New Physics are only unravelling and confirming knowledge which have always been known to African, Buddhist and Hindu sages from time immemorial. Don't forget, the Egyptian Pharaohnic civilization, which was primarily a Black (Nubian) civilization, flourished for over fifty thousand years before the Arabian invasions of the 9th to the 12th centuries, and Alexander -the- Great's conquest of the northern half of Africa. Up till today, scientists are baffled by how the famous Egyptian Pyramids were constructed and how light from certain windows in the pyramids are directly traced to the second to particular astromical bodies believed to be the zodiacal stars of the Pharoahs for which the particular Pyramid was built. Certainly, our forefathers were scientists to have attained such unparallelled achievements. Gold gilded swords were found in the plundered tombs of the Pharoahs. You can only gild iron with gold through the scientific process of electrolysis. Which implies, therefore, that our people knew about electricity. As Bocour Kofi Agorsor has said, Ifa/ Afa gave birth to science, which has always been with the African. My own over-thirty-years comparative religious studies reveal to me that there are great parallels between the African Ifa/Afa Knowledge System and the Eastern Phylosopies of Zen Buddhism, Hinduism, and the I-Ching Divination System, believed to be the oldest divination system in the world, but which, in reality, is only an off-shoot of Ifa/Afa. Because Africa underwent so much persecution, many of our Knowledge System went underground. No wonder, you feel science and the phenomenon of energies, vibration, harmony, frequency, etc. are Western impositions to try to make sense of the African Traditional Belief System.I can assure you that all that seems lost, all the Science and Mystery/ Knowledge Systems, can be found in our inner shrines intact, where the core of the teachings have to do with energy play, vibrations, frequencies, transmutation, etc., what you unfortunately describe as Western scientific phenomenon. I will, hereby, also recommend a few very important book titles to you, and anybody willing to study the subject under discussion to the core. They will help you come to a better understanding of all that I'm talking about, that science has always been with the African, and that you will find scientific phenomenon at the core of the teachings of Ifa/ Afa, Zen Buddhism and Hinduism. 23 hours ago via mobile · Unlike · 2

Rikki Wemega-Kwawu 1) Paramahansa Yogananda, is regarded as

one of the pioneer exponents of Eastern Philosophy to the West. I want you to read his "The Science of Religion." 2) Swami Sri Yuktsewar, Paramahansa Yogananda's Master, who sent the latter on a crusading mission to the West, wrote the fantastic book, "The Holy Science" in Sanskrit, a very ancient sacred language. This book was very transformative in my own development. Spituality being defined in scientific terms, making use of words like atom, matter, vibration,

etc. 23 hours ago via mobile · Like · 1

Moyo Okediji Rikki Wemega-Kwawu, thanks for elaborating as you're

doing. I thoroughly enjoy it. Unlike some others, however, i am happy with Ifa. From the tiny bit of it that I know, my impression is that it is so vast that if I spend the rest of my life on Ifa alone, I would not even begin to scratch the bottom of it. In other words, while it is fruitful to study Indian, Chinese and other ancient ideas and spiritualities, I am content simply elaborating on Ifa. Perhaps because I study Ifa through an indigenous language--that is Yoruba--my conviction is that it is impossible to fathom these Indian, Chinese and other ideas in foreign translations. But let me not deviate: while others think I need to know Budhism or other ideas to contexualize and understand Ifa, I think I don't even know enough Ifa to begin a cross-cultural annotation of its systems. And I don't think think anything you find in any book prepares you for the performative essence of Ifa experience. 23 hours ago · Unlike · 4

Rikki Wemega-Kwawu 3) "Sacred Symbols of the Dogon: The Key to

Advanced Science in the Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphs," by Laird Scranton, forward by John Anthony West ( Inner Traditions, 2007, 272pp., $18.95). 2) "The Science of the Dogon: Decoding the African Mystery Tradition," by Laid Scranton ( Inner Traditions, 2006, 224pp., $16.95) and 3) "The Cosmological Origins of Myth and Symbol - From the Dogon and Ancient Egypt to India, Tibet and China," by Laid Scranton (Inner Traditions). 23 hours ago via mobile · Like · 1

Rikki Wemega-Kwawu Sorry, for the poor numeration for the second

batch of recommended books. It was an oversight. It should have been in this order: 3, 4, and 5. Thank you.: 21 hours ago via mobile · Like · 1

Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju Wonderful. I am most happy that this

discussion is back on track. I will be back. 20 hours ago · Like

Rikki Wemega-Kwawu @ Moyo Okediji: I agree intoto, the Ifa/Afa

Knowledge System is more than enough to occupy you a whole life time, and you would've only scratched the surface. I didn't come to Ifa/Afa via the route of Zen Buddhism and Hinduism, which have incontrovertible parallels with this African Ancient System of Knowledge. I was born naturally into Ifa/Afa by virtue of my family lineage. I come from a long line of Traditional African priests and priestesses. My paternal grandfather was one of the most powerful priests (medicine man, blacksmith and herbalist), to ever walk the surface of Eweland. The Ewes are believed to be the sacredotal tribe from Ancient Egypt, and the Ewe language is a cosmological language,

believed to be the first language spoken by Man. The Ewe language (spoken in South Eastern Ghana and cutting across all the way through Benin, to Yorubaland, lends itself easily to the interpretation and explanation of all cosmological phenomena - The Supreme Intelligence, God, which unfolds into creation; Man in the scheme of creation and his relationship to God, his fellow Man and the earth; our universe and universes beyond, our life after here, etc. The study of the language alone, I guess, like Yoruba, can give you deep insight into Ifa/Afa, However, I discovered that my early exposure to Eastern philosophy made it easy for me to bring an intellectual perspective to bear on the study of the Ifa/ Afa Tradition. Given naturally to being inquisitive, I took it upon myself to do a lot of comparative religious studies across board as I was growing up. The Eastern philosophies of Buddhism and Hinduism, with their western variant of Theosophy, gave me further and better understanding of the teachings of Jesus Christ and Christianity, and Muhammed and Islam. 20 hours ago via mobile · Unlike · 2

Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju Most exciting, Rikki Wemega-Kwawu!

We need to document these understandings and spread the knowledge far and wide! 20 hours ago · Like

Moyo Okediji In Yoruba thoughts, life begins in Ile Ife. Not in Ancient

Egypt. It makes our perspective different because our divinities descended from Orun directly to our land. We have a saying: Aji se bi Oyo la a ri. Oyo ki i se bi enikan. It means that "There is room for copying us. But we copy no other." Such a way of thinking means that our system is regarded as our way, and while we do not prevent others from borrowing from us, it is not our way to borrow from others. Of course others may criticize us for adopting this position. They are welcome to do so. It still does not shake our fundamental understanding of the originality of our culture. There are those among us who have adopted other ways of thinking. It does not remove from the basic idea that "Aji se bi Oyo la a ri. Oyo ki i se bi enikan." There is no apology for this way of thinking, and others are free to think in ways that suit them. 19 hours ago · Unlike · 2

Moyo Okediji It is exactly this way of thinking that makes us laugh

when people compare Ifa with other systems and invite us to see similarities and even possible origins. This is not the Yoruba way of thinking. Ifa is enough for us to explore. We have not even begun to fathom its infinite possibilities. 19 hours ago · Like · 1

Moyo Okediji Every Yoruba number, from Eni, Eji, Eta, Erin, and so on,

defies translation to One two, three four etc. Because the significances of these numbers are not simply numerical. The numbers are messengers that carry meaning, and each one is an alive, active and

dynamic character, with individuality and responsibility. Eni--which seems like one, is someone who has (ni). Eji--which seems like two is someone who moves or shakes (ji), etc. How do you convey or compare these things in a foreign tongue? It is the lack of understanding for this cultural way that gets people irritated. They want to impose their "scholarly" scale on Yoruba systems, forgetting that these "scholarly" attitudes are cultural meters from other places to which the Yoruba culture owes no obligations. 19 hours ago · Unlike · 1

J Michael Walker For me personally, it is hard to believe that any

spirituality that is ultimately "true" requires book study; that it could not have been perceived by the Ancients, who were living with received wisdom, observation, and intuition.... 16 hours ago · Edited · Like · 1

Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju Could you complete your sentence and

hopefully, clarify it, J Michael Walker? 16 hours ago · Edited · Like · 1

J Michael Walker It is this: Who are the wisest, most truly humble and

kind, loving people you have met in your life? (Because these, to me, in my heart of hearts, are the Ones who have found, or approached, enlightenment and pure-soul happiness)

In my experience, these Gifted Ones have not been women or men who have studied and argued authors and books. Rather, they have followed and learned from traditions, and they have approached others with an open heart; yet they could not argue - probably would not choose to argue, out of deference and respect - over the finer points of any belief system. You (or someone else with years of study in books) would steamroll over them with your erudition; but their hearts would still be nearly immaculate and golden, and they would invite you or me, complete strangers, into their homes and offer you food and drink without the slightest concern for our potential to help them materially.... 16 hours ago · Like · 1

Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju Thanks. J Michael Walker. If you truly

believe, both intellectually and as a profound psychological commitment, that the wisest, most truly humble and kind, loving people' the 'Ones who have found, or approached, enlightenment and pure-soul happine...See More 16 hours ago · Like

Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju Efa/Ifa/Fa/Afa and Science Historical Questions "Efa/ifa gave birth to science".

Kofi Gamamiwosror Agorsor I begin with Kofi Gamamiwosror Agorsor's assertion that "Efa/ifa gave

birth to science". I have a problem with this statement. I have a problem because I dont understand in what sense the central

terms here are being used. Need for Precision of Terms If Kofi is describing Efa/Ifa as giving birth to science, what is Efa/Ifa

and what is science? One of the potencies of scholarship, particularly as it has been refined

in the current global centre of scholarship, the Western intellectual tradition, is the need to avoid unexamined assumptions.

This is emphasized so that those taking part in a discussion can share

a mutual understanding of the terms of discourse and not work at cross purposes.

Mathematics and Medicine in Ifa/Afa and in Science In what sense could Efa/Ifa have given birth to science? This question may be explored by comparing the character of both

phenomena, Efa/Ifa and science and their histories. Since describing entire the character of Efa/Ifa or even of science as

one understands them might not be necessary at this initial stage, one could look at what distinctive similarities Efa/Ifa might share with science.

The distinctive similarity I am able to find between Efa/Ifa and science

is that Efa/Ifa uses mathematical permutations in organizing and developing knowledge.

Another is the fact that Ifa has also developed a herbalogy, using

plants in addressing a number of issues, which might include illness, as bio-medicine also does with plants.

That is where it ends, to the best of my knowledge. Does that make Efa/Ifa, the mother of science, another body of

disciplines in which mathematical patterns are central for organizing and developing knowledge and in which nature is employed in addressing human challenges, as plants are used in Ifa/Afa?

Is the organization and development of knowledge through

mathematics in Efa/Ifa identical to that of science? Is Ifa herbalogy identical with scientific use of plants in medicine? Is there a history of development from Efa/Ifa to science, whether in

Africa or in the broader world? To the best of my knowledge, the answer to these questions is NO. I am yet to learn of any influence of Efa/Ifa on other disciplines in

Africa in terms of Efa/Ifa mathematics. I am yet to learn of Efa/Ifa influencing science in terms of the study of

phenomena through the techniques of analysis, organization and quantification that make science distinctive as understood in the modern world.

I am yet to learn of Efa/Ifa influencing the development of modern

medicine. The history of science can be traced to earliest times, and the best

role Ifa is likely to have is an early example of techniques of organizing and developing knowledge using mathematical forms, a quality it shares with other spiritual or partly spiritual systems, such as the I Ching, the Jewish/Hermetic Kabbalah and astrology., as well the recognition and application of the understanding that plants are valuable in addressing illness., an awareness and practice that are likely to be universal across human cultures, for much of their development.

Esoteric thought, a term I will provide my own definition for later, in

the context of controversies on the implications of the term, is established to have been decisive in the birth of modern science, on account of its influence on such founders of modern science as Isaac Newton, but this esotericism is the Hermetic tradition, the inspiration of which is traced to Egypt and which is very different from the public information on Efa/Ifa.

Other esoteric thinkers who influenced science are Pythagoras and

Plato, but their ideas may best be understood in terms of the human tendency to abstraction in terms of mathematical forms, relating these abstractions to cosmology, an approach that occurs in many cultures all over the world.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no evidence that the

Efa/Ifa/Afa/Fa variant of this human characteristic influenced anyone whose ideas are part of or were subsumed by the developments of science.

Universality Kofi Agorsor has on this group described Efa/Ifa as a universal

cosmology and discipline.

Moyo Okediji has also stated on this group that the similarities

between the I Ching, the Chinese divination and cosmological system, and Ifa, must have its origins in Africa, from where the human being is described as having expanded outwards globally, according to a number of academic disciplines.

It is obvious that Moyo's point is conjectural, and no more, since

diffusion is only one way of explaining cultural similarities. Independent development resulting from foundational similarities in

human cognitive processes is another explanation, suggested, for example by the inexact but useful example of Leibniz and Newton fundamental developments in the mathematical discipline (?) of calculus in different countries in Europe without contact with one another.

Kofi's point can be valid only if interpreted in a very general and

generous sense as suggesting foundational similarities with other cosmologies globally, similarities that do not justify their being described as identical with Efa/Ifa. 15 hours ago · Like · 1

Kofi Gamamiwosror Agorsor Oluwatoyin, i thank u so much for your

questions and your time. All knowledge, religion,science,name it, all comes from Afa..when one get into Ifa,one will realize that,all religious practices that goes on all over the world, all the inventions , science, already exist in Afa. 9 hours ago · Unlike · 2

Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju Efa/Ifa/ Fa/Afa and Science Ontological Questions ‘you can find all science knowledge in Fa’ Kofi Gamamiwosror Agorsor How is that possible? In what sense can it be possible? All the sciences, from the mathematical, to the physical, to the

biological? From trigonometry, to calculus, to geometry, to topology, among

others, with all the developments in these fields over the centuries? The only mathematics Ifa demonstrates is that of organizing its

knowledge in terms of a range of relationships between 1 and 2 , these relationships developed in terms of what might be called mathematics of probability, at least to my mind which knows little of

mathematics but can recognize some of its forms. I call it the mathematics of probability because it represents, in the Ifa

variant, 256 possible ways, or odu, in which the divination instruments may fall when cast.

These mathematical possibilities or odu are represented in terms of

vertical lines and each of these possibilities has assigned to them an unspecified number of poems or prose narratives, known as ese ifa.

What is the logic behind correlating particular literary forms with

specific literary forms? I am yet to find out but I don’t consider it a profound piece of

knowledge. I see it as one of the gaps vital to understanding the structural and

ideational coherence of the system , information that suffers, perhaps, from overly limited notions of the value of secrecy, mistaking social for what I would describe as epistemic esotericism, distinctions which I will define later.

Can this style of mapping probabilities be applied outside the Ifa

context? Perhaps. Ifa has also been interpreted in terms of computer science, as in Olu

Longe’s foundational essay “Ifa Divination and Computer Science”. To the best of my memory, Longe’s derivation of computational

possibilities from Ifa are quite basic, though intriguing, ion terms of relationships between Ifa and cognitive systems developed in other cultural contexts as demonstrating universalities of human thought.

Ron Eglash has also done some very beautiful work on fractals in

African cultural forms and their relationships with computing. His book African Fractals and his website have become touchstones of

this study in its cultural and practical implications, inspiring the special issue of Sylvester Ogbechie’s journals Critical Interventions, on African fractals, expanding the contributions to the field.

Aimee Dafon Segla has done most impressive work on classical

Yoruba mathematics and astronomy and has brought out a book on the subject-Amazon has it- but its only in French.

Other writers have developed other mathematically related forms in

relation to Ifa, but these efforts are more sporadic than represent a distinctive school of thought or disciplinary possibility, to the best of my knowledge.

Ifa has also been developed in terms of ideas in the social sciences by

a school of thought initiated by beautiful pioneering the work of Akiwowo.

This is an effort to develop original sociological theory using Ifa, and

is therefore more of an original creative development than a development of ideas already existing in the social sciences.

Such efforts at creative rethinking, I expect are vital to taking Ifa

forward as a body of knowledge, of content and method, through which knowledge can be developed in relation to a range of phenomena.

What one needs to be careful about is claims that all knowledge

already exists in Ifa because it does not, except as a possibility that can be arrived at only by the creative and broadly informed student.

There are other contributions I have encountered but the sources for

which I am not able to readily reach right now and perhaps others I am not aware of since I have not been following the field closely for the past few years.

Kofi’s point could be seen in terms of a claim that all scientific

knowledge could be derived from Ifa. Is that possible, if so, how? I would hold that the ideational forms and processes of Ifa are not

broad or deep enough to enable such a vast scope of derivation, of such precise knowledge, across so many disciplines.

What is more realistic is derivation through an analogical process, in

which what is known in Ifa is related to something else known outside Ifa, through similarity between both of them, immediate or remote, as the case may be.

We need to be careful about precision in our claims about classical

African knowledge systems so that those we are communicating with will readily understand the context in which we are communicating.

Western created knowledge systems, both the exoteric, the

mainstream, and the esoteric, the marginalized, to give a crude definition, are highly developed in terms of a specificity that situates them in terms of relatively precise metaphysical, epistemological and historical coordinates, ideas of their character, how they develop knowledge and their history, an example that helps one see, at a glance, the questions to be asked in relation to claims being made about any field of knbowedge.

Finally, Kofi’s statement could represent a point of view that needs to

be understood in terms of his own specific parameters, as different from the kind of questions I am asking and possibilities I am presenting.

He will need to specify, however, the specifics of his point of view, why he thinks it is valid, and helpful, if he does not mind, how he came by that point of view. 9 hours ago · Like

Moyo Okediji Is your perspective based on what the books tell you,

Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju? If so, Fela has a phrase for this way of thinking: Kolo mentality.This is why you need to research in indigenous landscapes, with performers of culture. There are so many ways of thinking about science beyond what Karl Popper wrote. And Popper would probably claim that your argument is subject to the "the problem of demarcation." See: http://www.stephenjaygould.org/.../popper_falsification.html 8 hours ago · Edited · Like

J Michael Walker Thank you, Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju, for you

response - and, especially, thank you for keeping it brief - I am not making myself clear, apparently.

I do not advocate against studying books or having an intellectual debate. Rather, I would remind u...See More 7 hours ago · Unlike · 2

Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju I will address the uncritical reiteration

of the limitations of written texts, in time. What are the justifications for the claims being made by Moyo and Kofi

for Efa/Ifa? Are we to simply take their word for it? They are referencing fields of knowledge, Ifa and science, about which

other investigators have created an industry of written exploration. Are Kofi and Moyo arguing that the understanding of all those other

investigators are invalidated by their words, that only Kofi and Moyo are capable of providing information about Ifa and science and their relationships?

On what terms are they presenting these assumptions? We need to break out of a mindset of pseudo-esotericism in

discussing classical African systems of thought, describing them as phenomena that cannot be critically analyzed, cannot be discussed, must be understood only on their own terms etc- all these claims being fictions.

Much is being made by Moyo about privileged knowledge of Ifa as if

such so called privileged knowledge invalidates the ability to think critically about the system.

He presents an idea from Yoruba conceptions of number as if it is

some wonderful rarity, without being aware that the same or similar idea is pervasive across ancient cultures, a family of ideas developed at great length and recorded extensively centuries ago by Indians in terms of Sanskrit linguistic theory, while the Yoruba never developed a significant system of reading and writing.

Yet the same Moyo is pleased to champion the notion that study of Ifa

is best approached as a self contained discipline, with nothing to learn from others.

Moyo keeps invoking the notion that the most important Ifa

knowledge is not in books as if he is saying something wonderful, yet is not sensitive to the contradiction in that position, contradictions related to the Orisa tradition –of which Ifa is a subset- understanding of ase or cosmic force as communicated through verbalisation, as well as of the mobility of this force.

Why then, must we privilege words from human mouths and denigrate

words written by human beings? Much is being made by Moyo about active participation in Ifa practice

as if it is necessarily exclusive of study of what other investigators have to say , as if the combination of practice and scholarship in religious and esoteric study is not well established for many years.

Moyo is unable to outline a scheme of categories or forms of

knowledge, preferring to simply denigrate any effort to critically discuss if Ifa knowledge as if it is some cloud that can’t be discussed by the mind.

Yoruba Studies, African Studies, Religious Studies, Divination Studies,

the Philosophy of Knowledge, studies in esotericism, theology of various religions, have long left that naive kind of thinking far behind.

I get the impression Moyo is trapped in the ethnic blind demonstrated

by some Yoruba people on Ifa. “It is ours! Only we can talk about it! If you want to study it, you must

come and learn with us! It is so important we have kept a lot of it hidden so where will you learn if you dont come to us?!”

not realising, as an North American olorisa-orisa devotee-Aina

Olomo- commented on such attitudes, that the train has long left the station.

I will return soon to my systematic analysis of each point in each

post. 6 hours ago · Like

Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju J Michael Walker, claims are being made

about vast bodies of knowledge. Do you think those claims can be addressed purely by 'contemplation, and intuition...listening and seeing with an open heart'? 6 hours ago · Like

J Michael Walker Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju, I no longer even have a

clue as to what is being debated - or why. If it is simply over whether or not to consider Ifa a religion as apart from considering it more properly as an entire way of being in this world, that sounds like an esoteric exercise to me, focused more on semantics that experience. I would also think that there others who historically would have agreed with the latter description for their spiritual practice as well - Saint Francis and the Buddha, for example.... 6 hours ago · Like

Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju Do you see, J.Michael Walker, you have

entered into the mode of discourse you see as not particularly helpful to understanding our being in the world?

You present a philosophical position, you invoke the names of

thinkers who represent whole industries of discourse, even as with the Buddha, an entire civilization.

Are you not contradicting your notion of reliance on 'contemplation,

and intuition...listening and seeing with an open heart' to address profound philosophical and spiritual questions?

It is vital we keep good faith in debates, not trying to discredit debates

because we dont agree with positions being held, because of loyalty to our friends who are not happy with the debate etc.

If one wants to focus on contemplation, one goes to an ashram or a

monastery, one does not engage in a platform that describes itself as a university, as this one.

The university ideal is centred in scholarship, dialogue and debate, in

‘endless footnoting’, as you describe it, not in 'contemplation, and intuition’ and the affective values of ‘listening and seeing with an open heart’, though those are vital as complementary approaches.

The contemplative mode and the intellectual mode are two distinct but

related ways of managing knowledge and we should not insist on one while we have voluntarily placed ourselves in a context where the other is primary.

If you have no clue as to what is being debated and why, read the

thread. If you are still puzzled, request clarification. If you remain unsatisfied, you explain why so others may respond and

help fill the gaps. That is the procedure of the culture of scholarship as collaborative

critique represented by the university concept, in terms of which this

group frames itself. 4 hours ago · Like

J Michael Walker I give up. 4 hours ago · Like

Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju Very wise of you 23 minutes ago · Like

Moyo Okediji Abusing people is hardly scholarly, Oluwatoyin Vincent

Adepoju. 20 minutes ago · Like · 1

Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju Moyo-you have used the following

language in relation to me on this thread-1- arguing for the sake of arguing 2- kolo mentality. I hope you get my point. 18 minutes ago · Edited · Like

Moyo Okediji I asked questions, if you checked the content. Do you

argue for the sake of it? Is your rhetoric reflective of Kolo mentality? But as J Michael Walker wisely concludes, "i give up." 15 minutes ago · Like · 1

J Michael Walker My father was a great debater - rated most high in

his school; honed his skill in sales. I never won an argument in my life. Did that make him right? No.

I have never relished competition, but, as we say in the South, I can smell it a mile away.

It serves no purpose beyond adrenaline for its addicts and a momentary high for its victors.

Enjoy your useless, tiresome victory, Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju. Best wishes. 11 minutes ago · Like · 1

Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju If you cant take part in an intellectual

debate, you dont belong there. So, J Michael Walker, you are wise to leave where you dont belong. As for Moyo Okediji, I observed he cannot sustain a debate on Ifa. He is also welcome to leave the field. His efforts at provocation in lieu of debate are best ignored. 7 minutes ago · Like

Moyo Okediji You are being disruptive here, Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju. Please stop alienating members. We welcome contributions here, J Michael Walker. Please ignore those trying to scare people away. It takes all kinds of wood to keep the fire going. We love you here. 3 minutes ago · Like