Interview with Samora Machel

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Interview with Samora Machel

Author/Creator Isaacman, Allen (Interviewer); Christie, Iain (Interviewer);Machel, Samora (Interviewee)

Contributor Filipe, Eléusio dos P.V. (Translator), Samora MachelDocumentation Center, Mozambique

Date 1979-05

Resource type Interviews

Language English

Subject

Coverage (spatial) Mozambique, Zimbabwe

Coverage (temporal) 1975-1979

Rights By kind permission of Frances Christie and Graça Machel.

Description Transcription of interview with Samora Machel, conductedby Allen Isaacman and Iain Christie, Maputo, May 1979

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Transcriptions of Interviews with Samora Machel- Tapes 1-4

Conducted by Allen Isaacman and Iain Christie, Maputo, May 1979

Translated from the Portuguese by Eléusio dos P.V. Filipe,

Doctoral Candidate in Spanish & Portuguese, University of Minnesota

Reviewed by Jim Johnson, Interdisciplinary Center for the Study ofGlobal Change, U ofMN

Iain Christie: During the Transition Government period, you, comrade President, said thatone of the objectives of FRELIMO was to eliminate the base of poverty inMozambiquebefore the end of this decade; of course, there is still poverty. But,can you list the mainsuccesses in the struggle against poverty?

Samora Machel: Did you end poverty in England? Did you end povertyin the UnitedKingdom?

Iain Christie: Not yet, not yet.

Samora Machel: Did you end poverty in the United States?

Allen Isaacman: There is still poverty in the United States…

Samora Machel: Did you end poverty in the United States? Poverty isstill the biggestproblem in the United States. Poverty is still a big problem in the UnitedStates … TheUnited Kingdom still has a big problem with poverty. Poverty is still abig problem in theGerman Federal [Republic]. Perhaps; perhaps, if we identify themain cause of poverty insome of these countries; in these countries, poverty is a failure of the capitalist countries.In the capitalist system, poverty is a necessary evil, and this is a very critical point.Poverty is regarded as a necessary evil in the capitalist countries. Poverty is a necessaryevil in the capitalist system. The fundamental aspect of the capitalist system is to havepoverty; the capitalist system engenders and structures poverty. To organize poverty isone of the key elements of the capitalist system. Our struggle is to eliminate root causesof poverty. Our first fight is to eliminate the root causes of poverty. We first want todestroy the root causes of poverty so that we can fight against poverty. That’s why wesay that the critical element in our struggle against poverty in our country was the end ofPortuguese colonialism, and this is a key point: the elimination of Portuguese colonialismwas the key aspect in our struggle against poverty because it was the main cause ofpoverty. We found illiteracy; we found obscurantism; we found superstition; we foundillnesses; we found misery in Portuguese colonialism; in sum, we foundpoverty. Thismeans that the productive forces were not free; there wasn’t initiative; there wasn’tindependence; there was not freedom. So, it was necessary to destroy this element, whichwas the Portuguese colonialism. This was the first thing to do. So, the steps that we aretaking now, they are designed to transform our country into a prosperous and a developed

country. However, we have given a finishing stroke to the Portuguese colonialism. Lateron, we will find the answer to this question of poverty; we will address in detail thisquestion of poverty, which you raised. Let’s move on.

Allen Isaacman: Agriculture was defined as the base for building a new Mozambicansociety. What are the main successes and failures of this processparticularly with regardsto the formation of cooperatives, communal villages, and state farms, and how the familysector is part of this process?

Samora Machel: Ah, did you ever visit the country, Isaacman? Did youvisitMozambique? What are the regions of the country that you visited?

Allen Isaacman: I visited Gaza, Nampula, Cabo Delgado, and Tete.

Samora Machel: Gaza

Allen Isaacman: Nampula

Samora Machel: Nampula

Allen Isaacman: Cabo Delgado

Samora Machel: Cabo Delgado

Allen Isaacman: Tete

Samora Machel: Tete... are you informed about Ian Smith? Did you visit Mozambique...did you visit the provinces …

Iain Christie: I visited some areas of Mozambique. I only visited Gaza.

Samora Machel: a little bit of Gaza

Iain Christie: Chimoio

Samora Machel: Chimoio, in Manica… did you establish contacts with somestructures?With state, political, and party structures? Did you establish these contacts?

Allen Isaacman: Yes, we did. We talked with the structures.

Samora Machel: For example, did you visit communal villages? Did you visit communalvillages in Gaza and Nampula? Did you visit some of them?

Allen Isaacman: Yes, we visited some of them

Samora Machel: I am also sure that you visited some agrarian cooperatives despite thefact that they are in their early stages of development. In order to answer your question itis important to know if you friends are aware of the Mozambican reality. When peoplecome down to Maputo; when people arrive in Maputo, they may have the impression thatnothing is being done in this country. For example, from the Polana Hotel; from theCardoso Hotel; from the supermarket that doesn’t have basic goods compared to the restof Maputo where some of these goods do not constitute basic goods in some rural areas.They vary from place to place. Therefore, the slogan of the party to establish communalvillages and cooperatives was well received by the population and it also generated verybroad popular support and enthusiasm. This slogan steered a broadpopular support andmovement from the people, and this is how we can see the development of agriculture.The establishment of a collective form of production, and the benefits resulting from it,and the elimination of the base of exploitation has encouraged their rapid development.Today, there are more than one thousand communal villages with more than one millionpeople. It is still not enough for a country with 12 million people, but this is an importantstep to revitalize [agriculture]. There are more than five hundredagrarian cooperativeswith more than thirty thousand members. This is very important considering that westarted from nothing. The visible and palpable material benefits of the communal villagesand cooperatives have increased the political and ideological consciousness of thepeasantry. It is a collective consciousness that emerged from collective work. Thesuccesses of the communal villages and the cooperatives have encouraged manyindividual peasants to get together to work collectively; this is a very important step. Wehave as an example the cultivation of cotton which was a forced crop during the colonialperiod and had negatively marked many peasants. Cotton profoundly marked theexperiences of peasants in those regions where it was grown. We can now see peasantscoming together to create cooperatives where they can cultivate cotton. This [change ofattitudes] towards the cultivation of cotton was a result of a profound politicalmobilization and consciousness--why do we cultivate cotton, and for whom are wegrowing cotton? Who gets the benefits from cultivating cotton? Talking about cottonproduction in the past was the same as organizing and bringing hunger and misery to thepeasants. Collective production leads to the gradual realization of other collectiveactivities, such as solving the problems of food supply, and this is the reason whyconsumer cooperatives are created to organize the distribution of food and marketing thefood surpluses produced by peasants. Peasants also organize themselves to collectivelybuild houses, which they never had before. To collectively build ahouse! A new style [oflife]! It’s a new way of looking at life--it’s a new conception of life!That’s why I wasasking if you had visited any provinces and rural areas, I mean rural areas outsideMaputo. This is how health, education, and commercialization problems are graduallybeing addressed and solved. For us communal villages are centers of collectiveproduction; they are centers of political, social, and cultural life. Communal villages arecenters that will allow the industrialization, urbanization, and socialization of rural areas.To sum up, communal villages are essentially centers of organized and collective life. Itis important to note this: centers of collective life. Repeat this; it’s necessary to highlightthis: collective life. People in Maputo build a big city, but they don’t have a collectivelife. In the United States, New York; England, London; France, Paris; these are big cities,but they don’t have a collective life. We will come back to these issueswhen I address

your questions about crime in the cities. We will come back to this. So, when we talkabout these issues, it is important to make it clear that the existing cooperatives are facingmany problems. One of the problems facing the existing cooperatives is lack of materialssuch as adequate equipment for better use of the existing natural resources, such as theconstruction of small dykes and dams for water storage and irrigation purposes, to controlthe rivers, and take advantage of water for irrigation purposes. We haven’t been able toachieve these goals. We still have problems in developing adequateexpertise to fightagainst natural disasters, such as, floods, droughts, hail, and plagues of insects. Theireffects can be minimized or even eliminated. But we haven’t developed adequateexpertise to achieve these goals and eliminate these problems. When we talk aboutagriculture, and when we say we have declared agriculture to be the base fordevelopment of our country, we are also considering these issues. We are taking theseissues into account. With regard to the state agricultural sector, we’re working totransform this sector without taking into account cattle-raising and forest enterprises(explorations). There are 130,000 hectares of productive and cultivated land under thecontrol of state companies where cotton, rice, corn, potatoes, peanuts are produced. Statecompanies are centers of diffusion…of what? Of advanced technical expertise. They areschools not only of production but also for training. They are not only schools fortraining, but also to develop a class consciousness so that there is anunderstanding of theinterdependence between agriculture and industry, and between theindustrial worker andfarm worker. That’s why we talk about state companies as centers of diffusion ofadvanced technical expertise to support the cooperatives with thebest quality of seeds tosuit the best quality of soil. Advanced technical expertise for cultivation and best qualityof fertilizers for different soils. They are centers for scientific and technical training forpeasant members of cooperatives. State agricultural cooperatives are centers ofproduction; they are centers of high levels of production and high productivity. Thefamily sector is going to remain the most important in the rural areas. This sector willremain the most predominant in the countryside, and much of the agricultural productionof the country will come from this sector. In order to support the family sector, the statewill ensure the market distribution of their foodstuffs by providing them with basic needsas well as agricultural implements such as hoes, plows, seeds, and others. These activitieswill be carried out taking into account our strategic goal, which is to make sure that thepopulation that live scattered in the countryside move into communal villages.

You can see that to solve the problem of people living scattered in the countryside, wewant to focus first on the consciousness of the population. This is in contrast to what it isbeing claimed in the western countries, that we are inflicting violent acts on the peopleand society. They claim that we are using violence against the people— why? I canunderstand westerners, particularly Europeans and Americans, because they want to turnour rural areas into study areas where they can find the “true” African. The “true” Africanfor westerners is the one who goes about in rags. For westerners, the “true” African is theone who goes about in rags; it is the one who is covered with sores all over his/her body.The “true” African is the one who goes about naked or simply wearsa piece of cloth, aloin-cloth or animal skin. This is the “true” African for westerners andEuropeans. The“true” African for westerners is the one who lives very isolated and next to or behindhis/her cattle. The “true” African is the one whose hut is the same ashis/her ox-stall

[cow-shed]. This is the “true” African. That’s why when we want tocollectivize life andproduction in the countryside; they [westerners] spread rumors against communalvillages, claiming that we are building concentration camps. Why? Because they’re goingto lose their study areas or laboratories to study the African, and where they could alwaysappear with a paternalistic attitude to help the miserable and pitiful African. Themiserable!... The miserable African who is waiting for the rains, and depends essentiallyon them. He/she produces for his/her subsistence or survival, and there are noperspectives or plans to produce surpluses. That’s why the westerners, all of them, areagainst the communal villages. Because they would lose the field to practice theirpaternalism towards the African. The development of cooperatives and communalvillages creates a stimulus and attraction to accelerate the integration of isolated peasants.This is how we will address all the issues concerning the agriculture sector.

Iain Christie: The next question is about industry.

Samora Machel: These sectors are connected.

Iain Christie: Industry in the People’s Republic of Mozambique was almost paralyzedaround the time of the independence. In today’s newspaper, we noticed…

Samora Machel and Iain Christie: Laughs

Iain Christie: ..but in today’s newspaper we read that industrial production increased 20%last year. What are the main factors for this improvement? Connected tothis question, Iwould like to know what is the FRELIMO policy regarding the incentivesof production?

Samora Machel: Let’s try to answer this question because it is of greatinterest; it’s aquestion of great interest for our workers, people, state, and the party. We will see onceagain the question of the unitary powers: political, legislative and administrative[executive] powers, which are separated in other countries. These powers are separated inother countries, and they even talk about the fourth power, which isof the media[information]. Information… all these structures [governmental sectors] act for the sameleadership and same interest. All these structures which represent the political, legislativeand administrative powers act for the benefit of the people. They act tocreate aharmonious development removed from capitalist competition. Thefirst thing we did wasto reorganize industry; when we say the reorganization of industry, we’re also talkingabout the reorganization of the leadership role of the working class(proletariat). Whenwe reorganized this sector, we defined the main goal which was the recovery of industrialproduction. The first front was the recovery of the industrial production… [the voiceincreases] It was not so much about perspectives or plans to increase the number offactories, it wasn’t about perspectives in terms of building new factories; the first stepwas to consolidate, improve, reorganize what already existed. And this recovery wascarried out on every front [sector of industry]. The first steps carried out from the earlydays of independence included fighting against sabotage -- fightagainst sabotage -- andthis sabotage was carried out by capitalism; capitalism [white settlers] in flight.

Capitalism is in permanent flight in every country where the revolution succeeds. I don’tknow why? Why do they always run away?

Iain Christie: First they fight [Laughs]

Audience: [Laughs]

Samora Machel: That’s why we say to fight against sabotage. It was not just economicsabotage, it was general sabotage, it was sabotage in the real sense of the word. It wasgeneral sabotage, it was sabotage carried out by capitalism in flight, capitalism in flight,capitalism is in permanent flight. Who were those who representedcapitalism in thatperiod? They were white settlers. The second aspect [step] was the definition of prioritiesin the industrial recovery. Defining priorities in the industrial recovery. Fundamentally,defining the strategic companies, establishing the qualifications and competencies forleadership positions in the state apparatus or at state structure level; establishing clearobjectives for production in the new socioeconomic conditions. It’s important to clearlydefine the priorities. It is important to define the strategies with clarity. It’s important todefine the priorities with clarity in order to define the strategies and establish thecompetencies at all levels. Not all battles have the same importanceor significance. No.There are decisive battles. Therefore, strategic sectors which are important for us, such asthe cement industry, must be transformed into an export sector. Strategic sectors for usmust be transformed into export sectors. During the colonial period, the cement industrywas not a strategic sector, not even an export sector. It was designed just to build thecities and speculate through them. Just to build the cities and speculate. They didn’t focuson building dams or reservoirs, they didn’t focus on building dams, reservoirs, dikes. No.The emphasis was on constructing buildings; building cities; just constructing buildingsfor immediate gain. There were no long term perspectives or plans.

Allen Isaacman: Cahora Bassa.

Samora Machel: Cahora Bassa was not built by them. [Laughs] Theydidn’t build CahoraBassa Dam. They had other plans and perspectives with regards to [the dam]. They hadother plans in mind--it was somehow a colonizing project designed to establish morewhite settlers. It was an outdated project. It was tried in Algeria, the French attempted todo that in Algeria. Where were they coming from, those who went to live in Algeria?What were the origins of the white settlers who went to live in Algeria? They came fromSpain and they were from other different nationalities. Do you think that Portugal withonly 8 and 10 million people would be able to populate Mozambique? The white settlerswould come from your countries.With hoes in their hands when they are in fact soldiers.We have had the opportunity to talk about this. We had the opportunity to talk about thisin 1972. I had the opportunity to talk with you [Allen Isaacman] aboutCahora Bassa in1972 or 1973. We had a very long conversation about Cahora Bassa and I would not wantto go back to talk about Cahora Bassa again. [Laughs] I don’t wantto go back to talkabout Cahora Bassa. I don’t want anything to do with Cahora Bassa at this moment.[Laughs] Don’t push me into talking about Cahora Bassa. [laughs] Cahora Bassa is awhite elephant without ivory.

Audience: [Laughs]

Samora Machel: Cahora Bassa is a white elephant that doesn’t have ivory. It’s over there.It’s over there, what does it [the dam] do? What does it do? In contrast, a black elephanthas at least ivory and a trunk. It has a trunk, ivory, and its feet are valuable. They can beused to build beautiful furniture. But, we don’t know what to do witha white elephant. Itis a white elephant over there. Perhaps, transferring it to the UnitedKingdom. [Laughs]

Audience: [Laughs]

Samora Machel: [Laughs] This is the colonial perspective, isn’t it? It was not to thebenefit of the colonized people, not even of the country where it [Portugal] colonized.Right now, South Africa is the country which is benefiting from the dam.Right now,South Africa is the country that takes more benefits from the dam. So,we talked aboutthe cement industry. We also talked about metallurgy and the rapid development ofagricultural implements. Do you see the connection now? We talked about textileindustries, we talked about shoe factories, we talked about the production of furniture tosatisfy the needs of people. We talked about the creation of production lines designed tosatisfy the needs of the population. Reproducing the models and simplifying theproductive processes in order to increase the production of basicgoods at low cost [tobenefit the population]. I don’t know if you noticed, but when we proclaimed ourindependence, there were some shoes here called xiconhoca. Didn’t we have such shoeshere?

Audience: There were….

Samora Machel: Iain Christie was already here. Magune used to wearxiconhoca; thosehigh heel shoes that don’t allow you to do any work; those shoes that don’t allow you tomove easily. What was the need for those high heel shoes? To get up from one desk andmove to another, there was always the danger of slipping and falling on the ground. Theywere not designed for the ordinary people. Training cadres at all levels: leaders,proletariats (working class), and other levels. Progressively introducing scientificplanning and production control, and these things never existed before. There were noproduction targets in factories; if they existed, it was only the owner and boss of thefactory who knew about the production targets. It was only the owner or boss who knewand the proletariat didn’t know. Some data show the industrial recovery; some data thatrepresent and show the industrial recovery, some data that represent the impact ofindustrial reorganization and recovery; first, it was an increase of 20% in industrialproduction in 1978 compared to 1977.

Samora Machel: The expected industrial production output from 1978 to 1979 will be23%. There will be 45 new state companies in advanced and final stages of developmentby May of 1979. It is now May and [there are] 45 companies. There are two nationalizedcompanies: Petromoc and Carbomoc. The main instrument for industrial recovery …[pause] … what was it? What led to this [industrial recovery]? Replacing capitalist greedwith the consciousness of the proletariat as the first stimulating factorto increase

production and productivity. That’s where the secret lies. The type of [labor andeconomic] relations changed, replacing capitalist greed with the consciousness of theproletariat. The role of the party and the councils of production were felt in this industrialrecovery. The role of the party and the councils of production were felt in a strong way.The role of the proletariat in the country’s industry is also an important one because theyare involved in production and they also discuss the goals of production. They are notsimply instruments of production, but they are also involved in discussions aboutproduction targets. They discuss the production goals, methods and targets. The controlof production is increasingly done by the workers, and through their representatives theyhave access to all necessary information for controlling production. The leadershippositions of companies are increasingly held by people from working-class backgrounds.It is no longer the bourgeoisie. Many boards of directors already havea representative ofthe company’s workers -- many boards of directors. The reorganization and recovery ofindustry demand its socialization, and it’s not only a matter of state control. That’s notour objective. The worker takes the leadership role and authority in the productionprocess. This is the central and critical issue for us with regards to industry.

Ian Smith: Can you talk more about the incentives?

Samora Machel: You mean initiatives?

Audience: Incentives

Samora Machel: You mean incentives? You attended the third congress of FRELIMO,and during the congress there were socialist awards. When we organized the first sessionof the people’s assembly, there were socialist awards at different levels, namelycompanies, cooperatives, communal villages, schools, health units and hospitals. Thesecond objective, there will be, there will be, there will be. I don’tsay that we havealready- first, we need to create the necessary conditions, we need toorganize ourvictory. We need to organize our victory and ensure its triumph. We have to organize ourvictory and ensure its triumph. We’re thinking to provide material incentives. We aretalking about May 1st; vacations are one form of socialist awards, vacations are oneform; free trips are another form; free medical treatment in the country and abroad;priority in occupying houses; these are some material incentives, and there will be otherincentives. This is our goal. The best worker will always have priority.

Allen Isaacman: It’s a question regarding the Third Congress ofFRELIMO. In thiscongress, targets for the industrial and agricultural sectors were set up. We also know thatthere were considerable economic sabotage, lack of qualified personnel, and lack ofcapital investments. My question is to know whether the country will be able toaccomplish these targets by 1980 under these conditions. I also wantto know what thecurrent situation is in the economic sectors that demand capital investments such as thesugar, coal, and cashew nut industries.

Samora Machel: There is optimism, there is optimism, there is optimism, enthusiasm, anddecisive will. Among other issues, the FRELIMO Third Congress defined economic

recovery as an immediate and essential objective. Economic recovery. Thus, [during thecongress] we set up production targets for 1980 which are in general the highest levels ofproduction ever achieved in Mozambique. These production levels will match andsurpass the levels of production of 1973 and 1974. At the present time, our expectationsof achieving these targets are generally positive. Now, the successes of the campaign ofrestructuring the party were a powerful factor that helped to broadly stimulate theorganization of production in every production unit, government institutions for efficientmanagement of the economy. This is the reason why the guidelines anddirectives forproduction (Planos Directores) for 1980, which are being completed, allow us to predictor foresee general successes in the economic sector. Althoughthese plans need to bespecific and detailed, enriched and completed through wide popular discussion to becarried out throughout this year, they already reflect the positivepredictions of achievingin general the target goals of the congress. In the agricultural sector, the prediction is thatin the agrarian season 1979 and 1980, the target goals established by the congress will besurpassed in the production of corn, rice, Irish potatoes, cotton, sunflower, tea, citrus, andvegetables. Moreover, we have also noticed that the main administrative andorganizational measures have been implemented and others are under implementation todevelop the agricultural sector and they include the construction of irrigation schemes,dykes, production and improvement of seeds, scientific research, etc. With regard toindustry, the reorganization and consolidation of the power of the state and its industrialsector have also helped stimulate increased industrial production, and for this reason weexpect that the recommendations and target goals set up by the congress will beaccomplished. Important administrative and organizational guidelines for mechanical,metallurgical, and glass industries as well as oil refinery, chemical,textile, garment, shoe,and food industries are in place. In general, these industrial sectors had experienced adecline in production and productivity. You know very well that in 1975 and 1976 therewas a drastic decline in production, and beginning in 1977 the production levels started toincrease with signs of great improvement for the next years. The positive results shouldnot make us ignore the insufficiencies and difficulties that we’re stillfacing. This year westarted producing tires and this is a significant victory for the national industry and animportant step in our development. But we feel that we haven’t achieved this victorybecause it was our initial goal to have this accomplished in 1977. There were goodreasons for the failure to achieve this initial goal in 1977, and you Isaacman know verywell the reasons for that.

Allen Isaacman: There was a huge lack…

Samora Machel: There was a huge lack…. Where was that, you Americans, where wasthat? When I talk about Americans, I’m also talking about the British. The British areeven worse. We’ll talk about them later, and I wouldn’t like to have it recorded. [Laughs]

Audience: laughs

Samora Machel: The British are the worst. At least Americans are rude and they speakopenly, while the British are more subtle. Our initial goal was notachieved, and it wassupposed to have been achieved in 1977. The production of coal is also experiencing

serious obstacles. The accident in the Moatize mines has delayed theprocess ofexpanding extraction of coal, and the current levels of extractionare extremely below thetarget production levels set up by the congress. This is despite the fact that the productionof coal is expanding significantly and has surpassed the levels of extraction of thecolonial period. Instances of economic sabotage have frequently severely undermined theplans for increasing production, for example, in the sugar sector.Last year, we producedmore than 190,000 tons of sugar, excluding the Marromeu Sena Sugar Estates, which hasthe capacity to produce more than 150,000 tons of sugar. The economic sabotage carriedout by Sena Sugar Estates prevented the successful beginning of sugar productionplanned for 1976. The Marromeu factory resumed its operations onMay 1st of this year.Huge efforts are underway to ensure the successful production of 325,000 tons of sugar, aproduction target set up by the congress. But the abandonment of Marromeu sugarplantations by the Sena Sugar Estates company in these last years represents a seriousobstacle to be overcome. The government, the party, the democraticmass organizationsare involved in solving the problem of Marromeu. The council of ministers – if I’m notwrong it was in August of last year when we started- but, today Marromeu is producingsugar cane. August, and it is not even a year. So, they are there.

Iain Christie: It’s the biggest sugar cane company in the country, am I right?

Samora Machel: Yes, it is. But it’s the one that it is not even producing one ton of sugar.It’s the biggest, but it is not producing a single ton of sugar for two consecutive years, isit? For two, for two years, 1976 and 1977, and even 1978. It didn’tproduce sugar foralmost three years. They left almost 800,000 tons of sugar cane to rot. The cashew nutindustry is another of the biggest problems that we’re facing at this stage of nationalreconstruction. The collapse of the commercialization and marketsystems caused adrastic decline in terms of marketed foodstuffs, and it was only lastyear that the cashewnut industry and the market system started to show signs of recovery. There were manyfactors. Slash and burn methods, natural disasters, and when we don’t face the problemsassociated with natural disasters and slash and burn methods, we’re confronted with thedifficulties of having peasants take their raw cashew nuts to the markets because there areno goods for peasants to trade with. There are no goods for peasants to trade with, andthis is discouraging for peasants. This phenomenon may be strange to you. You may befamiliar with the experience of other African countries where by thetime of theirindependence, they had many national and local African traders,and we don’t have themhere. We never had local African traders in this country. This reminds me of when wewere giving an interview to Loforte. For a person to sell eggs in this country, he/she hadto be a white Portuguese. Just to have a place to sell eggs, yoghurt, milk, needles, oranything, a person had to be a white Portuguese. Even to sell coal andcharcoal forcooking, a person had to be a white Portuguese. So, it was something new for theMozambican people, and our colonial situation was entirely different from other,English-speaking, African countries where Africans were involvedin trade. For example,there were many Africans in Salisbury or Rhodesia involved in trade and they also hadvehicles to transport their goods. In Salisbury, there were many Africans with their owntransportation and many others had big truck and bus fleets. Mr. Castro is smiling. Doyou know some of them? [Laughs]

Mr. Castro: [Laughs]

Samora Machel: Africans [in other countries] had farms, cattle, supermarkets. Africansdidn’t have the same things here.

Allen Isaacman: We saw many abandoned shops.

Samora Machel: Yes, abandoned. We’ll address this issue later whenwe talk aboutqueues. So, we talked about the collapse of the commercializationsystem that caused asharp decline of production for markets and it was only last year that it started to givesigns of improvement. Climate conditions have also significantly affected the recovery ofproduction. Lack of rains in Nampula Province, the first major producer in the country,have negatively affected food production. Torrential rains in Cabo Delgado Province--perhaps the second major producer in the country, I am not sure whether Cabo Delgadoor Zambezia is the second major producer or is on the same level as Nampula Province--destroyed the [electric power transmitters]. Recently the tropical depression Ângelicadestroyed 60,000 cashew trees in Angoche during the season of marketing cashews. Theproblem was more severe in the district of Moma; Moma was perhaps the most seriouslyaffected and houses and factories were also damaged. The goal of achieving the targetsestablished by the Congress will require massive popular mobilization including partyand state structures. Achieving the industrial transformation of cashew nuts and thetargeted goals of producing nuts will only be possible with huge efforts of workers of thissector where the creation of the Empresa Estatal Cajú de Moçambique and the increase inproductivity represent an achievement of hard daily struggle. This is a positive aspect.This is a critical point. The struggle of production is another front which demonstrates thecreative skills of a politically conscious and determined people todetermine its owndestiny and that it is able to overcome the most difficult obstacles. That’s why I startedfrom the most decisive force which is the people, organized people.

Iain Christie: What is the role of private capital in agriculture, industry and commerce inthe People’s Republic of Mozambique?

Samora Machel: Can you bring us some coffee? Are we in a cemetery?No water, coffeeor tea? What is the matter? It is as if we are in a cemetery. It’s as if we are negotiatingwith--I’m not going to say.

Audience: [Laughs]

Samora Machel: [Laughs] The private sector in industry, agriculture, and commerce. Thisis the first time that I’ll talk about this subject. There are certain issues that we haven’tclearly explained to our people, and to the country. This is an essential policy at nationaland international levels. It starts here. It is one of the issues. I’m going to address youdirectly and explain in a way for you to understand. The private sector in industry,agriculture and commerce plays an important social role in the Mozambican economy.The private sector should be subjected to the interests of the nationaleconomy. Themeans of production in the hands of the business people should be used adequately

according to the goals defined by the state, and they should fit into thegoals set by theplan. In the economic development efforts that we are involved in, we think that there isroom for the involvement of other countries and international companies and of foreigncapital as long as their activities fit into the economic policy and also conform to theprinciples and priorities of development plans that value our humanand materialresources. Do you hear this very well? Our state has passed the laws that define theminimum conditions for operating new enterprises including their rights and obligations.At the time of implementing a given enterprise, its statutes are defined and establishedincluding. among other conditions, the duration of the company, theform of using theprofits, the transfers of technical assistance, ways of fitting into thegoals of the plan, andother conditions that allow the profitability of the project benefiting theinvestor and thePeople’s Republic of Mozambique. We have experience with foreigncapital in terms ofconceiving joint-venture companies, acquisition of know-how as the English people say,and in terms of financing. Our current experience is mainly focusedon the fishery sector,exploitation of mineral wealth, and metallurgy industries. These experiences are alwayspositive. In the implementation of projects that involve foreign capital, the systemcurrently in place, although it is not the only one, is to pay for theforeign participationwith part of the resulting product when the project has been developed. With regard to therisks of investment, we can say that the law protects and safeguards foreign investments.At the beginning of implementing any project, [some] conditions are agreed upon inorder to allow that after a certain time period the investment of foreign companies istransferred to the Mozambican state. This is what I wanted to say.

Allen Isaacman: My other question is about the difficult situation ofMozambique’sbalance of payments. I’m not sure if it was the report of the United Nations that observedthat there was a deficit of nearly 60 to 80 millions of dollars. With this difficult situation,is it going to be necessary for the people of Mozambique to ask for loans from theinternational institutions, such as the IMF and World Bank?

Samora Machel: I’m very interested in your question. First, it’s important to clarify whatthe difficult situation of balance of payments really means. Who is incrisis? Are we incrisis or is international capitalism in crisis? The first point is important. Who is in crisis?It is well known that the structural imbalance of the balance of payments is a result of thecolonial economic system profoundly dependent on the development of South Africa andthe British colony of Southern Rhodesia. The revenues coming fromthe port and railroadservices and from selling labor to the mines and plantations of South Africa and SouthernRhodesia represented an important source of foreign currencyfor the colonial economy.The international trade had always presented large deficits, and the exports were basedlargely on five agricultural products. And these five main agricultural products werecashew nuts, sugar, cotton, sisal, and tea. The prices of these products are very low andoscillate significantly in the international market. This is the situationof the balance ofpayments that we find at the time of independence, coupled with economic difficultiesresulting from a ruinous colonial administration.

Samora Machel: The decision to impose sanctions against the Britishcolony of SouthernRhodesia by the Security Council of the United Nations has huge negative impact on our

economy. This decision has cost an estimated 150 million dollars a year in revenue forour country, and today the total costs of imposing these sanctions have cost the countrymore than 500 million dollars. Despite the United Nations constant pledges to theinternational community to support the People’s Republic of Mozambique because of theeconomic losses resulting from the decision of implementing the UN sanctions againstSouthern Rhodesia, Mozambique only received 100 million dollars. The economic lossesresulting from these sanctions to the country are extremely high for an economy like oursin its stage of national reconstruction. In addition to the direct costs of imposing thesesanctions, it is important to add other economic losses which come from not havingavailable those revenues to invest in the country. Huge efforts are being made to changethe balance of payments of the country. Right now, besides the traditional agriculturalgoods that we have been exporting, we’re now exporting manufactured or industrialgoods, such as, fridges and refrigerators, stoves, cement, wagons, garments, etc. Most ofthe imports of the country are spent on equipments, which will stimulate the economicgrowth of the country, and generate internal capacity. The second aspect is related toforeign loans to the country. A country like ours with international trade with othercountries must manage its financial resources very well. You know very well somecountries that do not manage their financial resources very well. We don’t need to talkabout them because you already know some of them. Thus, as a common internationalpractice, we also resort to foreign loans whenever we import equipment such asmachinery, vehicles, trucks, and other equipment. It would notmake much economicsense for us to pay with cash for our imports, and it would not be possible for any countryto buy or pay with cash for every import. Just like you Americans and British and eventhe Germans from the Federal Republic, you don’t pay with cash forall your imports.This is despite the fact that you issue billions and trillions of US dollars. You don’t paywith cash for all your imports. When we export some products, we promote investmentsfor exports. We can say in advance, today, that one of the most distinctive and visiblecharacteristics of our trade relations with other foreign countries: the Mozambicanforeign debt is very insignificant. For example, if we had to pay the whole amount of ourforeign debt by the year 2000, we would be able to do so immediately. This is somethingthat many countries cannot do. There are some countries that saw their foreign debtsforgiven. These countries were supposed to pay their foreign debt,and they were in debtfor more than 10 years. However, England and other Nordic countries pardoned theforeign debt of these countries, and you know which ones. The foreign debt of some ofthe countries pardoned was in the range of billions of dollars… of billions of dollars andnot millions. We wouldn’t apply for such debt forgiveness, unlesswe had fallen into debtby then to apply for such forgiveness… [Joke and laughs]…

Audience: Laughs

Samora Machel: our debt would have been forgiven. (laughs). But,this doesn’t excludethe fact that we have temporary problems in our treasury. Some of these problems havebeen overcome through an expansion of the bilateral relations between our central bankand many other banks worldwide including banks in the United States of America. Onemore aspect of your question is related to our relations with other international financialinstitutions. With regards to this issue, we have been examining our possible participation

and involvement in many different international financial institutions. We are alreadymembers of African Bank for Development. We were admitted recently as observers inthe negotiations, which are underway to revise the Lomé Convention. We have beenexamining our participation in the economic organization of socialist countries [EastEuropean and USSR]- Council of Mutual Economic Help. With regards to theInternational Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank, we’ve been studying carefullythe kind of relations that we’ll develop with these institutions. We’reexamining the kindof relations that we’ll establish and develop with these institutions. We are paying closeattention to the behavior, methods, and actions of these institutionsin different countriesand the ways in which those methods and actions are reconcilable withour nationalinterests of protecting our national sovereignty. The kind of relations that we’re seekingto establish with different international institutions and countries should provide mutualbenefits and advantages, and these relations should always respectand safeguard thesovereignty of the countries involved. These relations should alsorespect the political,economic, and social choices of each country, and their right to freely choose theirdevelopment strategy. The development approach of the People’s Republic ofMozambique is socialism.

Iain Christie: During the colonial period, there was a wide disparity in the distribution ofwealth in the country. What is your plan to address this? How did you plan to make aqualitative distribution in terms of price of goods, wages of workers, and interests for thecapitalists?

Samora Machel: Let’s rest a little bit. Let’s rest a little bit, aren’tyou tired?

Short Break

Iain Christie: During the colonial period, there was a wide disparity in the distribution ofwealth in the country. What is your plan to address this? What is yourplan to eliminatethis unequal distribution of wealth in terms of prices of goods, wagesfor workers, andinterests for capitalists?

Samora Machel: How are we going to eliminate the unequal distribution ofwealth? In thedistribution of wealth. To first improve the distribution of wealth in thecountry it isimportant to tackle and eliminate the wide disparities in terms of income that the class-biased colonial regime had promoted. This is a social objective of thenew socialistsociety, which ensures that each citizen has a prosperous, dignified and happy life. ThePeople’s Republic of Mozambique is committed to develop social policies designed toimprove the living conditions of people. Today, none spends money for his/her health;none pays for medical treatment in the hospitals; none pays for expensive medicines.Medicine is accessible for any Mozambican through payment of a symbolic price[subsidized]. The nationalization of habitation and housing [buildings for rent] hasallowed the access of the population to the cities. This has also helped todropsignificantly the costs of renting houses and apartments. School education through grade6 is free, and this education policy fulfills the right of people to education. With regardsto public transportation, state and government investments in this sector have improved

significantly the circulation of people. Fares to use public transportation have been keptat minimal and affordable levels. Prices of basic goods are subsidized by the state and theprices are kept relatively low for basic goods, such as, fresh milk,condensed milk, sugar,corn/maize flower, rice, peanuts, bread, fish, and meat, and this excludes first grade meat,which we will talk about later. The prices of non essential goods didn’t changesignificantly and they have remained stable since independence although their costs ofproduction have risen. The prices of secondary goods or superfluous, such as cannedfood, high quality dress, and other durable goods have risen. Parallel to this, the new taxpolicy has reduced the taxes imposed to the very low income people while increasing thetaxes to those with high income. The reduction of wages securely promotes in the state[apparatus] – the ration is 1 to 10. Thus, the better redistribution of wealth produced [inthe country] is being carried out, eliminating the colonial contradiction where there was alarge mass of extremely poor Mozambicans living side by side with a small bourgeoisiethat appropriated most of the national wealth of the country. This is the aspect that we areinterested in.

Iain Christie and Allen Isaacman: [Background consultation between Ian Christie andAllen Isaacman]

Samora Machel: There is the question of the quality of living conditions

Iain Christie: Comrade President answered the first question…

Allen Isaacman: you Comrade President mentioned today that the majority of thepopulation has access to education and health, which is in contrast towhat happenedduring the colonial period where vast masses of people didn’t have access to schools andhealth services. We also know that most of teachers and physicianswere whitePortuguese and they ran away leaving behind a huge lack of qualified personnel. We alsoknow that there is a big lack of materials. In these very difficult circumstances, did thequality of services change?

Samora Machel: first, yes, the quality of services has changed. It was necessary. Thequality has changed. Not only the services changed, but also the content. The content haschanged and also the goals. And what about the rest when the contentand goals havechanged? Changes have taken place in the education sector; profound changes have alsotaken place in the health sector. Even the education sector has also experienced profoundchanges. But, there are serious problems. When we talk with workers,and we talked withthem in the worker’s day, and we ask them many times the following questions: whoattended the schools? Who benefited from the best services in the hospitals? Whobenefited from the best and highly qualified medical personnel especially physicians[during the colonial period]? They can’t answer these questions. These changes arenecessary. These changes have given us independence. These changes have given usindependence. Let’s start from the health sector. First, let’s talk about education. Let’stake alphabetization (early literacy) as a case in point. During the colonial period, therewas no talk about alphabetization. Perhaps, it would be very interesting if the Portugueserethink and they started a campaign of alphabetization in their own country. If they

started a campaign to teach their citizens how to read and write in Portugal. What are theilliteracy rates in Portugal?

Allen Isaacman: The illiteracy rate in Portugal is estimated at 40%.

Samora Machel: I was about to say that the rate of illiteracy in Portugal is about 30%. Itis estimated at 35% to 40% of illiteracy. That’s why we touched on this subject. This isthe first issue. But, because of their pride of being Europeans, it would be scandalous ifthe Portuguese started a campaign of alphabetization [early literacy] particularly when wetake into account that Portugal as a nation exists for more than 800 years. Laughs.Portugal as a country, nation and people exists for more than 800 years. I will tell yousome stories. During the war of liberation, we made some prisonersof war, and they werePortuguese soldiers. We distributed paper to each one of them to maketheir declarations.You friend Iain Christie know very well that we published the MozambiqueRevolutionwith letters and declarations. So, they received paper to write theirdeclarations, and oneof them brought us his paper with drawn lines and stripes, and we looked at his paper.There were no letters, no alphabet, and we didn’t know if that was a new alphabet and wewere trying to figure out if it was a new alphabet, or German, Arabic, Asian, Indian,Chinese. So, we asked him to read for us. “Please, can you read that?” So, he replied “ah,don’t tell me that you Sirs don’t know how to read?” Laughs …

The audience laughs and laughter

Samora Machel: Laughs. Look at this. “Ah, don’t tell me that you sirs don’t know how toread?” Laughs. This experience is very common for those who havebeen in Portugal asstudents especially black students who have been in Portugal. Some Portuguese womenstanding at bus station waiting for buses – do you call ônibus or autocarro?- manyPortuguese women who don’t know how to read when they go to the bus station andbecause they are ashamed to address another white European, they approach the blacksand ask them “listen, where are you going?” Laughs. Do you know why they are askingthis question? Do you know why they ask “where are you going?” the black answers, “Iam going to such and such place” and when the black walks into the bus, the woman alsowalks in, and she doesn’t mind what direction the bus is going. But, if the black ishesitant to answer the question “no, don’t ask me where I am going”,she will insist withthe black “come on; tell me where you are going. Come on; tell me where you are going”and the black remains adamant to answer the question, “I don’t have to tell you where Iam going to” the woman will insist “Come on; tell me where you are going.” She isashamed and embarrassed to ask “please, what is the bus number thatgoes to such andsuch place? Tell me the bus number for such and such place becausethey are many busescoming” See this mentality. Laughs.

Audience: Laughs

Samora Machel: That’s why we say alphabetization is an achievement of the revolution!Widespread and organized alphabetization of people is designed tofight against illiteracyin the country, a situation which was caused by the colonial domination inMozambique.

Alphabetization as the first priority is designed to ensure that the illiterate has the rightaccess to information, and scientific and cultural knowledge to overcome his/her state ofobscurantism, which was created and perpetuated by traditional education. It is alsointended to fight against ignorance, alienation, and the remnants or vestiges of colonialeducation. Do you see that placard over there about Marxism that you ask me aboutsometimes? We’ll soon come back to this serious issue. So, every Mozambican mustunderstand the milieu and the context in which his/her life is situated so that they canbetter act in the transformation of nature and the relations among Men so that they canend misery and the exploitation of Men left behind by colonialism so that they live andenjoy the benefits of their work and the achievements of the revolution. In order toincrease production and productivity, we planned the first campaign of alphabetization tobenefit 100,000 people, and we focused on the workers of the mostproductive sectorssuch as factories, hospitals, communal villages, etc. This campaign exceeded theexpectations and covered 130, 000 workers. The second nationalcampaign ofalphabetization which will start in 1980 is planned to target 300, 000 workers. We areplanning these campaigns with the goal to eradicate illiteracy in our country.

Access to education: The colonial education system served the interests of the colonialbourgeoisie. Schools were designed for the children of white settlers. The fewMozambicans who had access to education were taught in the mission schools,particularly catholic missions. The Concordata of the 1940s which was implemented in1941, 1942, and 1943 in the colonies. Students worked in the Christian missions’ fieldsand they also received religious lessons [catechism]. The kind of education and valuesreceived in these mission schools were designed to make them accept the colonialdomination and the belief that Mozambique was part of a single and unified Portuguesenation. Today, education is for everyone, and basic education is free. In 1973, there were588,868 students attending school. In 1978, there were 1,419,279 students attendingschool. In only five years, school attendance increased by more than 100 %. The numberof Mozambican students attending the last grades of secondary education and highereducation institutions was almost non-existent. We can give as a good example theuniversity. Today, we have more than 82, 000 secondary schoolstudents who arechildren of Mozambican workers. At the university level, we have more than 1,000students distributed in different courses according to our needs.Training of teachers: thedisorganized flight of white Portuguese teachers. Was it good? For us, it was good. Whatwould they teach? They were unable to teach the history of Mozambicanpeople. So, theywould not contribute to building a Mozambican personality [identity].They were unableto teach the geography of Mozambique and for that reason we would remain in an emptyspace and part of the single and unified Portuguese nation. We would still be calledPortuguese. Who would produce the content of books and readingtexts? So, it was goodthat they left. In the colonial system, there was no preoccupationwith training teachers.Children of white Portuguese were taught by fellow white Portuguese. Mozambicanstudents were taught by missionaries and school monitors. Many of the school monitorsdidn’t have grade four. Teachers who taught at “Escolas de Habilitação de Posto” orteachers for the rural areas also called teachers for the natives. You were director fortraining teachers for the natives; you know very well what I’m talking about.

Samora Machel: Escolas de Professores para Habilitação de Indígenas. Escola deHabilitação de Professores Indígenas [Schools for Training Native Teachers]. She wasthere, Cabo Delgado. We made great efforts after 1975, and particularly following thegreat achievements of nationalization, which ended the private education. We started totrain new teachers in increased numbers according to the goals of a revolutionaryeducation to benefit the entire country. According to the historical, cultural, and socialreality of our country, we will retrain all existing teachers in order to ensure that they acttogether and that they maintain their on-going political, pedagogical, and scientificengagement. In order to achieve these goals, we created ten training centers and fourretraining centers. Until 1978, 3, 474 teachers were trained in the newtraining centersand 12,456 teachers attended the retraining centers. We are training teachers in thefollowing disciplines: mathematics, biology, chemistry, physics, Portuguese, history andgeography. Problems. The first main problem we are facing now is the lack of teachers tomeet the increased demand of many students. The second problem isthe lack of buildingsfor secondary school students although we have the initiative to build schools usingsticks. The third problem is the lack of school materials and equipmentsuch as books,labs, workshops, and other student and pedagogical materials. For now, we are going toimport some of the material such as pencils, erasers, and color pencils, etc. This is thesituation.

Samora Machel: That’s why we are gradually introducing free and mandatory education.

With regards to the health sector. The main characteristic of the health sector left behindby the Portuguese colonial administration was discrimination. Discrimination was thefundamental characteristic of colonial health services. Economic discrimination was veryvisible in the private health services, which were only accessible to the urbanbourgeoisie. There were also differences in terms of servicesand prices in thegovernment health services. Racial discrimination was visible in theinfirmaries: [medicalappointments] and other separated services designed for whites and blacks. There wasalso discrimination in terms of classification of workers and remuneration for differenttypes of health employees. This depended on the color of their skin. Health care waspredominant in the cities where there was a big concentration of whitesettlers. It’s worthmentioning that more than two thirds of physicians in Mozambique were concentrated inMaputo [then Lourenço Marques]. There were no health centers in the rural areas and theexisting ones were poorly equipped to provide any kind of assistanceto the peasants. Theother major characteristic of the Portuguese health service was the emphasis on curativemedicine, which was essentially private and lucrative at expenseof preventive care. Theachievement of our independence allowed the party and the government of the People’sRepublic of Mozambique to define health for everybody as an essential objective of therevolution. Following the nationalization of private health services, it was necessary toeliminate racial and socioeconomic discrimination in the health units. Methods ofdemocratic management were introduced in the health units, and there was a shift to giveemphasis to preventive medicine. Taking advantage of the experience of the liberatedzones during the period of the liberation struggle, we are encouraging the promotion ofcommunity health by the community. Our goal is to ensure that the entire population hasaccess to health care. We know that at the present moment it is only possible to provide

differentiated and basic health care. With the support of political structures, we promotedcampaigns of sanitary education. We took care of cleaning up the environment andsanitation, and we organized a national campaign of inoculation against tuberculosis,tetanus, measles, and smallpox. The success of this campaign allowed the inoculation ofthe majority of our people, and it is being acknowledged [praised] by the World HealthOrganization. Smallpox has just been eradicated from our country.Before independence,more than 25,000 children died every year because of measles. In 1978, there were only110 mortal cases of measles. With regard to physicians: We can saythat beforeindependence, there were just a few Mozambican physicians. Today,we can say somedozens of physicians have been trained. When we proclaimed our independence, therewere fewer than 20 physicians in the country. Of the 200 to 300 physicians [needed] inthe Central Hospital, the Hospital had only 75 physicians at a giventime, for a hospitalwhich had between 1,400 and 2,000 beds, for medical appointments. Just to give anexample, at the Hospital Central de Maputo [Maputo Central Hospital],there are morephysicians and medical experts [now] than during the colonial periodbecause we haveinternational support and assistance. The socialization of medicine ensures free medicalaccess for everyone and free distribution of medicines in the hospital units and centers.These are the three questions that you posed me: education, health, and housing.

Finally the problem of housing. The first question which was posedwhen we started toaddress this issue was to establish a consistent housing policy that followed the party line.It was the colonial and capitalist logic to define and establish housing as a reproductiveinvestment designed to serve the privileged minorities. In contrastto this colonial andcapitalist policy, we proposed and established housing as a necessity and an essentialright of the people, and it should not be a source of exploitation and discrimination, onone hand. On the other hand, housing should be conceived broadly, which means thathousing is not just a house, but a network of infrastructures that include water, seweragesystem, schools, hospitals, health posts, commerce, parks, and other social institutions.Thus, it is possible to understand why we had to nationalize rental buildings and housesand this is because until recently, they were sources of exploitation and discriminationagainst our people, serving and benefiting a small and exploitative minority. Today, moreMozambicans have access to adequate housing although many buildings and houses havebeen occupied almost to their full capacity. This is because buildings and houses hadbeen built only to benefit the colonial bourgeoisie. Therefore, the existing houses andbuildings do not respond to our new demands and needs. How are we going to solve thehousing problem? Taking into account the existing scarce material andfinancialresources, and in the current stage of development of our productive forces, we say thatthe people are the principal agent. We will repeat this: the people arethe principal agentto solve this problem. It’s the people relying on their own means and supported by theparty and the state; they will have a fundamental role in solving the problem of housing.Europeans are used to having the bourgeoisie- those who have financial resources- createfirms or companies to build houses and rent them. This is how the bourgeois cities grow.After building, they rent them. For example, in the United States, there are some plots ofland with owners [for the bourgeoisie to build houses]. A building is built on a land of100 to 200 meters which is owned by someone. The land and the building are then rentedto others. This is complicated and we don’t need to rent a space to someone. We will

provide housing to our people without having to rent a space to anyone.We will providehousing for all our people. We have time as long as imperialism stopsattacking us. It isconstantly disorganizing us. Enemy attacks are designed to distract and deflect us fromthe main and critical issues: social and economic ones. That’s why wesay that the partyand government support will be critical in helping to solve the problem of housing ourpeople. That’s why we must advance to help organize the population toform and createconstruction cooperatives to build houses, and also encourage programs that help peoplebuild houses for themselves with some support. There are some experiences in Maputoand Chimoio. This is an on-going process, and we are studying a credit policy forhousing. We are also studying housing legislation. We are going to passthe land law,which will define different areas for factories, bridges, roads,areas for big projects suchas warehouses. By doing this, it will make it easy for our people to build. The type ofhousing to be built will make use of traditional techniques and also make maximum useof local materials. The construction of these types of houses is being experimented inpilot projects, for example, in Chimoio where we have achieved good results. In terms ofstate direct intervention in massive construction projects of houses, this will be donegradually according to a broad plan of the economy and depending onthe development ofthe productive forces. In the big centers of production, we will use constructiontechniques that take into account low cost, rapid and efficient execution of the projects.Thus, we are generalizing the use of prefabricated homes to the entire country. In 1979,every province will have its own construction warehouse for construction materials. Inorder to ensure that we succeed in these tasks, we will also reorganize the existingconstruction companies and strengthen them so that they can respond to the new needs.One aspect related to the housing problem is the conception that we have about life indensely populated areas, in this case, cities and communal villages. For us, theinhabitants of such settlements and populated areas must live organized through theirlocal structures of residence so that, on one hand, they will be able toresolve orcontribute to solving problems, and on the other hand, they can transform their individuallives into collective lives. In this way, they can establish new types of relations amongneighbors. Not the kind of capitalist relations where people live next to each other in thesame building but don’t know or talk with each other. There is no contact, but they live inthe same building. [Otherwise] we would end up having so much crime.You don’t knowif he is a bandit, what he does, his life, his behavior. You know nothing and there is agreat distance among people. Thus, the need for communal neighborhoods which willallow us to achieve our conception of life that is consistent with our option of buildingsocialism in Mozambique.

Iain Christie: what is the level of unemployment in the People’s RepublicofMozambique? What are the main causes of this unemployment and what is the strategy tosolve this problem?

Samora Machel: Unemployed, since when? There are many unemployed, since when?Director, don’t worry I know what I am going to do and say to our friends [AllenIsaacman and Iain Christie]. It’s something very short; this is the reason why I called you;you have a meeting here at 3: 30pm. Is that so? [Long pause]. It isreally very interesting.Truly speaking they [Allen Isaacman and Ian Christie] come from very far. Our comrades

never make such kind of questions. It’s normal. Let’s compare between United States andMozambique. Where do we find more unemployed people? How many unemployedpeople do you have in the United Kingdom?

Iain Christie: more than a million. We don’t have the statistics and we don’t know howmany unemployed people are in Mozambique.

Samora Machel: Laughs. That’s why you say there are many. You say there are manyand it sounds as if every Mozambican is unemployed. And becausewe also don’t havestatistics it seems that there are really many unemployed people. We will talk about thisin detail. Your question is really interesting. The reality is that there are not onlyunemployed people in our country but there is also under employment.There are largenumbers of workers who don’t work for the entire year or they workonly a part of theyear. The main reasons for this situation have to do with historical, political andeconomic conditions experienced by our country for centuries. The historical reasonshave to do with the colonial domination that our people and country suffered whichdidn’t allow the logical development of our country. The colonial domination left behindnegative consequences such as 95 % illiteracy. Now, you can imagine. Why doesPortugal have unemployment? It is because of illiteracy. We have also inherited abackward rural economy which is typically non-industrial and subsistence. This is ourreality. This is the reason why I was asking if you my friends visited the country to seehow our people really live. It is also for you to understand the efforts that the state andthe party are undertaking. It is only when you see the reality inherited from colonialism;you could have seen the concentration camps [strategic hamlets] in theprovinces affectedby the war. There wasn’t any economic activity, and there were nearly one million peoplethere. There were 1,500,000 Mozambicans in such concentration camps [strategichamlets]. This figure was for the provinces affected by war alone.In the neighboringcountries such as Tanzania, there were 100,000 refugees, Zambia had between 35,000and 40,000 refugees, and Malawi and South Rhodesia had double those figures. In theprovinces affected by war during the colonial period, there were Mozambicans whobecame Tanzanians, Malawians, Zambians, Rhodesians. Mozambicans were employedon the white Portuguese farms for a short period of time of at least six months. Thepolitical causes emerged because of historical conditions where unemployment was apermanent phenomenon under colonialism and the capitalist system. The unemploymentworsens under capitalism with a large mass of unemployed working class. ThePortuguese colonial and capitalist system had more emphasis on unskilled workers. Thecolonial system had more emphasis on unskilled workers. Production was based on theexploitation of cheap labor. They were unskilled workers, and therewas never talk abouta Mozambican proletariat. The industries were limited to metallurgy, construction,chemical, and mines. The construction industry was the leading one. However, 300,000Mozambican workers were recruited to work in South African mines, and not inMozambique. They were very qualified to be employed in South Africa, but they couldnot find employment in Mozambique. They were employed [in South Africa] as driversof locomotives, worked in the chemical, construction, metallurgy industries. They alsoworked as highly skilled workers in the South African mines, but when they returned toMozambique they were not seen as qualified. Do you see the problem? This Mozambican

who is regarded as unemployed here, he is a powerful force in South Africa. Thus, this isthe issue that we must contextualize, and we say that the colonial capitalist systemengendered a situation of permanent unemployment of the workingclass. The colonialcapitalist system put the emphasis on unskilled workers. Production depended on the useof cheap labor. Workers would be employed to work in construction projects and earn $20 escudos per day. $ 20 escudos per day in the construction of this entire city! They usedunskilled workers to build this city. Unskilled workers are the ones who built this city. APortuguese would arrive in this country and he would work for six months as a carpenterand after a year he would become foreman, and after a year and half he would become amaster builder, and after two years in a construction project he would become a projectconstructor [developer]. Economic reasons. The economic causes. Lack of developmentof many big industries. Our country was viewed as a raw-material producer for factoriesof the metropolis. The small number of industries existing in the country depended onSouth Africa because the country was situated as a transit station for the South Africanand Southern Rhodesian economies. It’s not a terminal, but a transit station for SouthAfrica, Southern Rhodesia, and the rest of the countries [in the region]. In this situation,why wouldn’t you find many unemployed people? Strategies to solve the problem.Building socialism is very necessary for our development and society. In the context of aplanned economy, it ensures employment and the right to work for each citizen accordingto the principles enshrined in our constitution and above all to ensuresatisfaction ofincreasing material, cultural, and moral needs of our society. Ways (methods) ofaccomplishing this strategy. First it is through a planned economyand a harmoniousdevelopment of production and productivity. Second, it is to systematically improve thequality of the Mozambican workforce to respond to the scientific and technologicaldemands of developing our country. Third, utilize the total installed capacity of theexisting productive units in the country and achieve the highest production andproductivity rates in these units. Fourth, creation of new work places and employmentcenters according to the needs of our economic development and the needs defined byplanning. Thus, in this particular context, the creation of heavy industries and other bigenterprises are essential, and projects to accomplish this are underway. For example,factories for agricultural implements, trucks, textiles, paper, etc. This means that witheffective exploitation of the mineral and agricultural wealth of Mozambique, we can havea shortage of labor within twenty years, and we can become importers of foreign labor.We can resort to foreign labor because we have a population of only 12 million people;12 million people for a country with nearly 800.000 km² with the wealththat it possesses,for example, in rivers alone; developed agriculture, heavy industry as a driving force.

Iain Christie: what about investment and capital? how you are goingto address this?

Samora Machel: We will see that. You asked this question because you know that thereare some people who want to come to invest and we defined the areas. Do they want to ornot? Talk with them. Convince them. Who gains from this? They are the ones. First, it isthe transformation of the countryside with the creation of communal villages.Transforming the state farms into a driving force in the rural areas and creation of basicindustrial infrastructures which ensure the effective use of rural labor. Developing thecountryside –I’m going to address this question much later. Irrigation of the countryside

and establishment of textile and metallurgic factories, gold, iron, coal, copper mines. Allthese factories will allow us to implement a rational and effective policy of using ourwork force according to the priorities defined by the economic planwhich will bestimulated by the wage system that ensures the same wage for the samework and eachone according to his/her own abilities. This is how we think we will solve our problem.

Allen Isaacman: What about the question of unemployment? Maputo doesn’t have muchcrime.

Samora Machel: That’s why you are smiling. It’s not by accident that you raised thequestion; the question of unemployment is linked to crime and delinquency…

Samora Machel: The main characteristics of a socialist society are the establishment ofrelations of cooperation and fraternity among men. Man is no longerthe wolf of anotherMan. Do you know what a wolf is? The struggle against the causes ofcrime; youremember, my friends, when the government of national transitiontook over, when wedefined [the objectives]. The goal is not simply to solve the crime cases, but it is toeliminate the causes. The struggle against the causes of crime and the social conditionsthat cause crimes are an integral part of the construction of socialism. During the war inthe liberated zones, we had almost eliminated crime. Do you remember that in hisprovince Cabo Delgado people would hurt each other using knives andcutlasses duringthe cashew nut season? Cabo Delgado province is a very good example.

Iain Christie:

Samora Machel: while drinking, people would use knives and cutlassesto solve theirconflicts and some of these conflicts involved women and girls. They would kill eachother. During the war, we solved these problems. However, these [crimes] were morewidespread in areas occupied by the enemy, and not in the liberated zones. In the areasoccupied by the enemy, these problems would increase. Crime problems affected the bigcities and areas under occupation by the colonial fascist troops. Doyou see? In ourliberated areas, there was no crime, but in the areas occupied by theenemy there wascrime. They had all the available means to tackle crime and we didn’t have any and weworked under many constrains and difficulties. The population wasforced to live in theconcentration camps; the so-called aldeamentos [strategic hamlets] faced problems ofunemployment and idleness, and systematic discrimination against women. If you sold aa pen like this one, you could see a naked woman. [If] you wanted to have good sells ofnewspapers you would bring in all kinds of [women pictures in the paper]. Ournewspaper has in fact quality, and these are qualities for a newspaper. The systematicdiscrimination of woman – this is what I am saying for you to understand- [she] was aninstrument of propaganda. Naked in several positions – that was the[colonial]newspaper. Discrimination against women. Indifference towards the moral and civicvalues of youth: drug addiction and drunkenness were essential elements of the colonialpolicy that encouraged crime. Now, do you see? I am answering yourquestions. At thetime of our victory, there were tens of thousands of prostitutes in the big cities. In thiscity alone, we could find the Aquário, Quaresma, Pinguim, Lúzio and many other places.

Someone in the audience adds: Rua Araújo.

Samora Machel: Rua Araújo. Rua Araújo. So, at the time of victory [transitiongovernment and independence], there were tens of thousands ofprostitutes, thousands ofdrug addicted, networks of drug trafficking, clandestine and illegal games, gangs ofprofessional robbers; these networks had many connections with the colonial policyespecially with the political police. They worked as mass organizations of western secretpolice. It’s not by accident that these networks of professional robbers had connectionswith the police. They had connections with banks and other many services. Now, seetheir present connections. Gangs of robbers with connections withcertain structures. Ourstruggle against crime involves three main aspects: the political, economic, and socialstruggles and administrative measures. Do you understand me? Administrative measures.Objectives. More than just reprimand the delinquent, the goal is to save him/her andabove all to eliminate the causes of delinquency. Right after our victory and during thetransition [to independence], we launched big campaigns designed to mobilize andorganize the population in the struggle against banditry. The population was invited toparticipate. Who is the victim? It’s in the people. The newly created GruposDinamizadores played an important role. Simultaneously, we introduced administrativemeasures, in this case, closing down certain places where there were concentrations ofdelinquents and criminals. We started creating centers for reeducation of prostitutes,people with drug addiction, and petty thieves. Pro… procri… procri…“prosimétrico”…pro… do you call pro… do you call “prosimétricos” or “procri”?

Someone in the audience: “prosimétrico.”

Samora Machel: My director is going to explain to you what “prosimétrico” means. Drugtraffickers. A good number of some of the leaders of gangs of robbers very early –listento this carefully- very early, they opted for another nationality andabandoned theMozambican territory. They left, and you know where they went.Many of them went toEngland and they are still there with you. They wear ties and drink everyday, and withtheir groups they are performing. In the reeducation centers, theylearned new professionsand gained working habits, and many thousands of them have been recovered andreintegrated in the normal life. Thus, some results have been obtained. The statistics ofthe capital are very significant for a place that was the center of crime in the country,Maputo, then Lourenço Marques. Before the independence, there were on average closeto 1,500 homicides annually.

Someone in the audience: only in Maputo city?

Samora Machel: no, no. The figure was for the entire country with incidence in LourençoMarques. Maputo had the highest crime rates. In 1977, there were 171 homicides, and1978 there were only 83. Of these homicides, there were only two homicides that weremotivated by robbery, and other crimes were related to cases of superstition, andskirmishes caused by alcoholism. From 1977 to 1978, physical offenses decreased from329 cases to 234 cases in the entire Maputo Province. Robberies have also decreasedsubstantially; in 1977 there were nearly 5,000 cases of robbery and 1978 there were 4,000

cases of robbery in the entire Maputo Province. The creation of green zones andindustrialization provided more working places. Widespread increase in terms ofeducation and cultural knowledge, the social pressure against alcoholism, the increasedresponsibility that citizens have towards society, and reconstruction of the PoliceServices, and its better integration in the masses, the developmentof vigilant groups arefundamental factors that allow us to predict with some optimism the complete eliminationof crime in our society in a very near future.

Iain Christie: when talking about living standards, you have to talk about the supply offood. How do you plan to solve the problem of food supply since there are still manyqueues? What is the main strategy to solve this problem?

Samora Machel: of queues? Who do you find in the queues? You find mostly women andchildren in the queues. Women and children are the majority in the queues. First this is anormal phenomenon in many African countries after independence where people move tothe cities. It is a general trend to leave the countryside and move to the cities. [Theperception] is that independency is in the city. This is the first cause. This is aggravatedby the appointment of new leaders who replaced the colonial administration. I don’tknow if I’m making myself clear. Suppose a couple with employmentin Maputo andthey come from Gaza, Inhambane, Sofala, Cabo Delgado, and Niassa. The first thing theman does is to uproot and remove his wife from agricultural production, and bring her tothe city where she becomes a housewife to cook for him. Right? She doesn’t have anotheroccupation, and she is only going to become a housewife and cook. Isn’t this correctMazuze? She stopped producing in the countryside and came to the city where she willstay unproductive. She is only going to stay as a housewife and cook.She doesn’t haveany task. She is not working in a factory; she is not related to any productive work. Thisis the first source. The second [source]; it is not enough to bring his wife to the citywithout a job. He brings his mother-in-law to the city, and this is notenough. He brings ismother, then his brothers followed by his brother-in-laws. So, he hasclose to six, seven,and eight people to stay with him and live at his expense in the same house. If we have5,000 people who bring 8 people to their homes, how many people are we going to havein the Maputo City? This is a normal exodus everywhere in the world, and[theperception] is that independence [freedom] is in the city. This is aggravated by the newappointed leaders and the increased wages. During the colonial period, 3,000 escudoswas not enough to meet the needs and support such big families. Aman could not meetthe needs of such a big family that included mother-in-law, brothers. They would remainin the countryside working in the fields and he received food from thecountryside tosustain himself because the 3,000 escudos were not enough for his survival. However,with independence and increased wages, they occupied spacious homes enough toaccommodate between eight and nine people. Right? In 1979, we observed thisphenomenon. The second phenomenon which is perhaps specialor specific to thePeople’s Republic of Mozambique or even specific to the former Portuguese colonies isthe disorganized flight of all shopkeepers who in their flight destroyed all infrastructures,and undermined the food supply networks. None had experience inbringing peasantfoodstuffs to the cities. None had practical experience with the food supply system. Therewas even less experience with importing goods from abroad. It is very understandable

that they destroyed the infrastructure and there is little infrastructure remaining built withcement. The other phenomenon which is important to highlight –a phenomenon verydifficult to solve in our country- this is the reason why we say that queuesare caused bymany factors, various factors, and some of them include the increased purchasing powerof the population; significant changes in eating habits; difficultiesin the food supplysystem, problems in expanding the food distribution network, and decline in foodproduction. The purchasing power of our people increased. There was a substantialincrease in wages. Health and education expenses do not affect family budgets. As aresult of the nationalization of these sectors, house rent expensesalso decreasedsubstantially allowing many segments of the population to have access to decent housing.Therefore, there have been important changes food habits of consumer, for example,while during the colonial period the maximum consumption of fish was 10,000 tons peryear, today the consumption of fish is more than 30,000 tons of fish a year. In 1974, theconsumption of potatoes in Mozambique was 80,000 tons. In 1978, the consumption ofpotatoes was 110,000 tons. In 1973, the consumption of cooking oil was 12,000 tons. In1978, the consumption of cooking oil jumped to 20,000 tons. Pay attention to thesechanges. The consumption of mostly imported wheat will surpass 135,000 tons. In thepast, these products were reserved almost exclusively to the white settler population. Thegreat stability of prices in basic foodstuffs in our country has allowed an increasednumber of people to consume these goods. Since 1975, a kilogram ofsugar and rice hasremained at 8$50 and 13$50 escudos, respectively. Soap, maize flower, bread, fish,chicken, milk, beef have remained stable at the prices of 1975. It was only the first gradebeef commonly called roast beef [veal] which increased from 66$escudos a kilogram in1976 to 78$ escudos a kilogram in 1977. Simultaneously, as the demand andconsumption increased, some difficulties were detected. Before independence, petty tradewas not allowed to Mozambicans. I’m going back to the subject I’ve talked about before.The sale of one escudo worth of eggs, matches, needles, charcoal,and petrol, or 50 centsworth of tea: this kind of petty trade was in the hands of white Portuguese settlers. Thus,the massive departure of white settlers caused a severe breakdownin the food supply andmarket networks. Little by little the numbers of consumer cooperatives are increasingwhich increases the number of shops. Note for instance that outside Maputo City centeryou don’t find a single supermarket. There isn’t any supermarket and there never was anysupermarket outside of Maputo. Equally, we’re improving the transport network and thesupply of foodstuffs which had disappeared when the white settlers abandoned thecountry. The flight of the white settlers resulted in a sharp decline inproductivity inseveral farms around the urban centers. It is only now that some of these farms are beingrecovered: Moamba and Marracuene. Farms located in these areassupplied Maputo citywith foodstuffs. They [the producers] ran away. Who was a farmer and who owned atractor during that time? The main issue affecting the rural areas is the supply ofmanufactured goods to the peasants. The experiences resulting fromcampaigns to marketcashew nuts, cotton, and other goods and the organization of communal villages havebeen contributing progressively to solving the problems of supplying goods to the ruralareas. Solving the problem of food supply ultimately depends on increased productionand improvement of the food supply network. That’s where the solution of food supplyrests.

Iain Christie: you comrade President said that culture is centralto the Mozambicanrevolution and you also talked about building a new revolutionaryMozambican culturebased on the rich traditions of the Mozambican people and on the principles of [singlefamily]. Can you give some examples of the development of this cultural perspective?

Samora Machel: we’ll see that there are several examples. There are several examples ofthe development of the countryside. In the past, our people could not sing and when theystarted singing, their songs had profound religious connotations. But today, [the culture]is being freed. We are noticing the development of dances including some which haddisappeared in the 1940s when catholic missionaries attacked our culture: theyconsidered our entire culture, all forms of dances as dances of pagans. New kinds ofpaintings are emerging today. However, if we look at the paintings of 1973 and 1974 andprior to these days, we see that all of the paintings were designedto please the boss[white settlers]. It’s the kind of paintings that praise the bourgeoisie, and it’s throughthem that people admire the bourgeoisie. With regards to sculptors, Ihave seen many. Interms of literature, you might have read some texts in the newspapersand magazines andsee the new trends. The definition of ethic concepts; I could talk about the newexpositions that are taking place all over the country and the increasing number ofvisitors to the museums and libraries. I don’t know the number of publications that eachprovince has, such as people’s newspaper, small brochures. What we don’t have is thecapacity to direct these initiatives and print some of these publications. We don’t have. Ifwe had the capacity to direct these initiatives and skilled personnel inall the capitals [wecould print some of these publications]. There are rich materials which are disappearing.Perhaps, because of its spectacular character and because itwas the biggest popularcultural manifestation in the history of our country, I will mention the first nationalfestival of popular dance. There were 600,000 dancers involved in every category. Therewere more than 5,000,000 spectators. Have you ever had something similar in Englandand in the United States where you would involve 600.000 dancers? You have never havesuch experience in England and the United States where 600,000 dancers were involved.This event took place [at different levels] small villages, localities, districts, provinces,and the nation. Everyone was involved. Everyone contributed; everyone danced. All of usdanced. During the preparatory work for this festival, several dances of our folklore,which had been suppressed, were rediscovered and recovered.Several studies wereconducted about these dances. Many musical instruments were resuscitated and they nowappear on the radio and we hear them. I heard and saw people playing some of theseinstruments when I was only 8 and 10 years old. Some of them had totally disappeared,but they are now reappearing with vigor. Many of these dances hadreligiousconnotations and expressed feudal relationships, and during the festival there werediscussions that helped free these dances from such feudal connotations and transformthem into dances of artistic expression. For its dignity, simplicity, architectural style andbeauty, I can talk about the construction of the monument for Mozambican heroes. It fillsus with emotion, and we also take pride in it. It was conceived by all Mozambicanarchitects. It was a contribution of all Mozambican architects, and you can see themonument.

Samora Machel: When we talk about certain things we become emotional. This is a verystrong people, you know.

Allen Isaacman: Mr. President, we had a question about women whichwe didn’t includeand it might be important to include it now in connection with the law of nationality.

Samora Machel: Very well…

Allen Isaacman: In your speech in the first conference of the Mozambican women’sorganization in 1973

Samora Machel: Don’t raise that question now; bring it back later.

Samora Machel & Allen Isaacman: We’re now talking about people’s power.

Samora Machel: It doesn’t matter. You mean the question about the city?

Samora Machel: So, connect those questions. What is the FRELIMO policy to stimulatethe increase in production?

Samora Machel: There were two questions… What is the FRELIMO policyto stimulatethe increase in production?

Allen Isaacman: We have already discussed this issue.

[After a short interruption]

Allen Isaacman: In your speech in the first conference on Mozambican women in 1973,Comrade President noted that without the emancipation of women therevolution wouldnot succeed. We know that the struggle for emancipation [of women] is a long anddifficult one. But, can we say that after these six years the situation of women hasimproved a lot? Second, what are the obstacles that impede the emancipation of women?

Samora Machel: Until 1973, we had the armed struggle which was an impetus to involvewomen as armed guerrillas and politically armed [equipped]. Therewas a directinvolvement of women which accelerated their emancipation. In the second conferenceafter independence, we defined the tasks for women’s emancipation, and we said it wasproduction. We said it was their involvement in production. And how do we implementthis? We see the involvement of women in factories in all provinces. We also see theminvolved in agriculture. For the first time, we see the first women astrimmers in CaboDelgado Province. I think there are about 30 women as trimmers in Cabo Delgado

Someone in the audience: [corrects the figure] There are 22 women trimmers…

Samora Machel: I think there are about 30 women trimmers in Pemba for the first time,and they worked for the first time to load the ship “Pemba” which is on its way here.

They are involved in economic activities which emancipate them from domestic work.During the colonial period, if I’m not mistaken, there were some problems in cashew nutfactories in Gaza province, especially in Manjacaze district, whereno women wereallowed to work but only men. We see women working in agricultural cooperatives. Imean outside the sectors normally reserved for women. They were expected to beinvolved in social issues such as education and health, and take care of childcare centers.We also see the political involvement of women at all levels. So, the main obstacles forwomen today are no longer those prejudices and stereotypes. The main obstacle forwoman today is men. We have been observing [some form of male sexism] at the partylevel and in mass democratic organizations such as OMM, OJM, and ONJ. We men donot accept that our wives assume more responsibilities than we do. The fact that a womanhas more responsibility than the man becomes a disturbing factor in the family. So, Idon’t know if this should be the women’s emancipation or men’s emancipation. Yourquestion; this problem doesn’t affect only Mozambique but also the rest of the world. Ahusband may be unemployed and his wife employed, but he will never accept the idea ofbeing at home taking care of children because he is unemployed. Although he isunemployed, he still wants to see his wife take care of children while he is going out.This is not unique to Mozambique. Now, I don’t know if this is a men’s ora women’sproblem. Another problem is the refusal to fully accept that women’sintellectual abilitiesare the same as men’s. It’s not only a matter of accepting women’sphysical abilities.There are still some problems in accepting women’s intellectual abilities, and this shouldbe overcome. This problem still affects developed societies where there are still problemsin accepting that women have the same intellectual and mental abilities as men’s. Thereare prejudices that women are intellectually inferior to men. It has been like this inMozambique because of feudal and traditional customs. Illiteracy also contributessignificantly to these stereotypes. In our case, illiteracy and ignorance are contributingfactors, and women passively accept this with some degree of resignation and they areeven proud to be inferior to men. These issues are very serious. All over the world, mendon’t fully accept women’s [intellectual] abilities and the work distribution and sharing,particularly in the domestic space. These problems are also present in the factories. Evenin the most developed countries, women’s issues are very serious.So, there are moreobstacles for women in the Mozambican society which is also a very backward, semi-feudal, and colonial capitalist society.

Allen Isaacman: Can you, Mr. President, talk about this anomaly which is the law ofnationality?

Samora Machel: suppose if we asked our people, what will be their answer? Suppose weasked this question to the people. Suppose a lady gets married among us Mozambicans;the girl leaves her home for my home? How is it in England? Who moves out? It’s allover the world. Let’s start from this practice [of a bride leaving her parents’ house for herhusband’s house]. Let’s start from the practice without going tothe scientific definition.Suppose my friend Maguni gets married to a Tanzanian woman; does my buddy Magunigoes to Tanzania or his Tanzanian bride comes to Mozambique? He is not working inTanzania. You are used in Europe to take in and welcome blacks andIndians who studythere and they get married and they stay in England.

Audience: Laughs

Samora Machel: They get married and they stay in the United States. You are used tothis. You’re very used to this. An English factory worker leaves to work in Germany andgets married there and when his retirement approaches, does he retire and stay inGermany or does he return to England with his wife? It’s a lie, it’s not true. Does heconstitute a German society in his house? Is she going to develop a German culture in hishouse?

Samora Machel & audience: laughs…

Samora Machel: An Englishman or Frenchman gets married with an Englishwoman, isthe Englishwoman going to develop the English culture in the midst of French society?It’s a matter of being practical. Let’s see how things are. First, I haveto say that I haven’tposed this question to my country for discussion, but it’s a matter for the CentralCommittee to decide. In 1975, it was during the seventh Central Committee meetingwhen we discussed the issue of nationality. First, it eliminates opportunistic principles. Idon’t know if you understand me very well. It prevents any opportunism. It prevents anypossibility for opportunism. We don’t want one leg outside; one must have two legsinside. This is the first aspect. Second, and I’m going to be open about this: state securityand defense. This is very important. It’s not as simple as you may think. With thisdefinition, we have eliminated the first foundation of opportunism.Second, to ensurestate security. I don’t know if you understand me very well. You’reEuropeans and yousometimes don’t understand this. You’ve been independent for a long time and you’veovercome this. You’re used to mix with each other. Laughs.

Allen Isaacman: can I ask you a question?

Samora Machel: One moment with this question, my friend Isaacman.One minute aboutthese questions, Isaacman. Now, I would ask who is worried about this question:intellectuals and academics who study this. They read the constitution and look at thenationality, and make intellectual assessments. If I put the same question to a peasant inthe countryside, what would be his/her answer? If I ask the very samequestion to a smallminority here in Maputo City, a small minority of urbanized and bourgeoisie, those arethe ones who are worried about this question. It is this small minority who are worriedabout this question. It is this small minority that smoothes or flattensthe hair and becausetheir hair is white [long hair of white women] is worried about this question. Peasants arenot worried about this question. Even in the suburbs of Maputo people are not worriedabout this question.

Samora Machel: A foreigner who goes to the countryside to get [married with] a femalepeasant? Laughs…

Audience: Laughs…

Iain Christie: in the cashew nut factory

Samora Machel: To meet a female peasant in a cashew nut factory? Laughs… they havenever been there…

Iain Christie: There might be some Mozambican women who may want toget marriedwith foreigners. There is a Mozambican woman who married a Zambianman.

Samora Machel: And then she went crazy and returned [to the country]. She went crazythere and returned [to the country] and I don’t know why. Laughs…

Iain Christie: is that so?

Audience: laughs…

Samora Machel: She went mad there and returned [to the country].I’m well informed.She was looking for material possessions.

Iain Christie: Really!

Samora Machel: The definition of the concept of love. We would take so much time todefine the concept of love. We would have to define the concept of love. Looking formaterial possessions, social promotion, marrying a physician. That’s what the pettybourgeoisie is worried about. Those bourgeois women are more concerned with marryingphysicians. A peasant woman, a cashew nut factory worker is not concerned with lookingfor a physician. Let’s start from practical perspective; from the daily practical experience;the achievement of equality in terms of rights between a man and woman will only bepossible with the building of a new society. Listen to this very well; atthis moment, wecannot say that they are equal. In terms of definition, they are, but in reality they are notyet. That’s what we have just said. We’re a conscious about this. The achievement ofequality between men and women will be possible with advances towards the building ofa new society, in this case, the socialist society. In particular, withadvances in women’semancipation. Towards this goal, we are creating the programmaticcharacter of ourconstitutional principle. The principle of the law of nationality is based on the experienceof FRELIMO and the current reality of women in our country. When she gets married,she becomes part of her husband’s family and household. She is an addition to the familyand household of her husband. Please, pay very close attention tothis. She is an additionto her husband’s family and household, and this is in line with both the traditional andbourgeois societies. Both of them have a patriarchal base. The woman herself doesn’tconstitute a family. She doesn’t constitute a family. It’s the husband who constitutes afamily. And it’s in that family where she belongs. It’s in that family where she belongs.Ultimately, our law of nationality is for her protection. It’s for her not to be regarded as aforeigner where she is. She has to belong to her husband to be what she is. She belongs toher husband’s family and household. If we told her to remain Mozambican, she would bea foreigner in her husband’s family and household. It’s like agreeing that “she marriesyou and goes with you to your country, but she remains Mozambican.” She would bediscriminated against. We are standing for the interests of Mozambicanwomen. Our lawprotects Mozambican women. I don’t know if I’m making this clear, Iain Christie.

Iain Christie: Yes

Samora Machel: If we continue to give Mozambican citizenship to a Mozambicanwoman who married a foreigner and lives in a foreign country, we are allowing her to bediscriminated against in that society. She would not be fully integratedin that society,and she would always remain a foreigner. It is on defense of her rights that we want herto be fully integrated into the household where she belongs [familyof her husband]. Thatshe has rights as a Englishwoman because she married a Englishman. Under theseconditions, when she marries a foreigner, she is no longer part of a Mozambican family,but she becomes a full member of a foreign family. This is the answer I wanted to give.

Iain Christie: [He says something not very clear because he is far from the recorder]

Samora Machel: Laughs… I’m very interested in this issue. Is this correct Isaacman?Ultimately, we are protecting the Mozambican woman, for her not to beconsidered aforeigner. If she married a Zambian man, she becomes a Zambian. “She belongs to herhusband. You stay there as a Zambian. Visit Mozambican when you want. Do everythingyou want.” She has the right to vote as a Zambian. She has the right to be elected, but ifshe remains Mozambican she doesn’t have the right to vote and be elected because she isa foreigner. You can ask another question.

Iain Christie: What are the main achievements of people’s assemblies in the last 18months?

Samora Machel: To speak of the last 18 months is to talk about the complete existence ofpeople’s assemblies. Given the fact that the elections ended on 4th December of 1977,[we say that] the first achievement were the elections themselves. 1027 people’sassemblies of different levels were elected, with approximately 30,000 representatives[members of People’s Assembly-parliament]. The second achievement was the socialcomposition of the people’s assemblies. Approximately 2/3 of the members [of people’sassembles-parliament] come from the working class and peasantry. There was also greatinvolvement of women who represent close to 1/3 of the total number of members [ofpeople’s assemblies- parliament]. This addresses your question.We started to createexecutive bodies at different levels which are responsible for people’s assemblies.People’s courts have been created in the provinces, districts, numerous localities andcities. These people’s courts are constituted by people’s assemblies which have beencreated in numerous districts and in some provinces. The members ofpeople assemblieshave started to create commissions designed to effectively control the main social andeconomic activities. There still is much to be done to put into practicethe principle thatpeople’s assembly is the highest state body in its respective level.We have just taken thefirst steps and we’re conscious about it. Among the first steps include literacy formembers of people’s assemblies. The first phase of the first campaign of restructuring theparty has allowed the creation of hundreds of cells in workplaces and residential areas aswell as the admission of hundreds of thousands of new members. This is another questionabout the party. This is being systematized: the first achievement, the second

achievement, and how they work, their composition and instrument. Can we move toanother question?

Allen Isaacman: The first phase of restructuring the FRELIMOparty has already beendone. How many members does the party have? And more importantly, how were themasses involved in the process of restructuring the party membership?

Samora Machel: The first phase of restructuring the party has allowed the creation ofhundreds of party cells in key workplaces and residential areas,and the admission ofhundreds of thousands of new members. The party had already members, but therestructuring of the party has allowed the admission of hundreds of thousands of newmembers. Perhaps, among the Marxist-Leninist parties, FRELIMOis the one with thehighest numbers of members and well established. Through its militants the party ispresent in every part of the country ensuring the effective leadership role of the party inthe society and state. The way in which the first campaign of admission of new memberswas undertaken greatly contributed to increase the prestige of the party among themasses. I think you, my friend Isaacman, remember the closing moments of the partyrestructuring and what we said to the people. We didn’t say that the people are filters, butwe said that the people are filterers. It is the people who know. So, forgenerations, it’sthe people who have been the depository of knowledge. The people never die. TheEnglish people exist for I don’t know how many centuries; the German, the Portuguese,the French peoples exist for many centuries; the people never die. So, it is the people thatknow all the generations. That’s why we went to the people. It mayseem strange for aMarxist party to approach the people. The people are not members.Isn’t it? Who knowsour life? Who knows our life better than the people? So, we need to contribute to makethe party prestigious among the masses. Besides being a subject of discussion, eachcandidacy to the party …

Samora Machel: those who infiltrated in the midst of the party or those who deviate fromthe party line.

Iain Christie: I would like you to talk about … I don’t know if I …

Samora Machel: Speak, speak.

Iain Christie: What are the implications of the concept of Marxism-Leninism [in theMozambican society]?

Samora Machel: That’s the issue I wanted to talk about. That’s exactlythe question thatinterested me so much. I was so much interested on this question. I wastrying to say thatthe question reflects some wrong assumptions. The way the question was raised reflectswrong assumptions about Marxism-Leninism. I am going to prove you. I am going toprove you, Isaacman. Isaacman, I want to prove this point to you sothat you can tell yourcolleagues; so that you can tell your colleagues to link illiteracy withscience. Theconcept itself; how are they going to learn catechism if they’re illiterate? They don’taccept that it is a science. How are they going to learn the Bible if they don’t know how

to read and write? That’s the conception, Isaacman. How are they going to read a foreignexperience? This is the central issue

Iain Christie: Laughs [he wants to intervene, but he is interrupted]

Samora Machel: I want to prove you. Marxism-Leninism; listen to thisvery well. This isthe central issue. Marxism-Leninism is a science of class. Do you accept that there isclass in Mozambique? Do you accept that there is a working class in Mozambique? Doyou accept that? Who makes Marxism? Who makes Marxism? Are you a scientist who isclosed in your library? Marxism belongs to its creator. Who is the creatorof Marxism-Leninism? Marxism-Leninism is a science of class and belongs to its creator, theworking-class. Its creator is the people in their century-long struggle against differentforms and systems of exploitation. In their century-long struggle, its creator [of Marxism-Leninism, the People] is above all the working class, who because oftheir specific role inthe society, are able to conceive and imagine a new society and a newkind of relationsamong Men. Who is the best Marxist? Is it the one who is sitting in the library readingcompendiums or is it the one who is executing the tasks? It was not among the peoplewho frequently attended the libraries and universities that scientific socialism emergedand evolved. It was not among the agronomists that geometry was invented. It wasamong the peasants. Right? Geometry was invented among the peasants in their fieldswhile demarcating, and it was not among agronomists. They inventedthe science there[in the fields]. That’s the type of question raised by intellectuals. It’sa question ofintellectuals. That’s why we say it was not in the libraries and universities where therevolutions that transformed the world took place. Correct? Correct? Mozambicanworkers have a long experience of suffering and struggle against slavery, feudalism, andcapitalism. How do you interpret this? Who took over the power in Russia? Who tookover power in Russia? Were they university students? Who made the long march inChina? Who made the long march in China? Were they university students? Tell me you.When I was marching with you, what were we doing? Those who were standing besideyou and protecting you, what were they doing? They don’t know how to read and write.This one who went to war with us didn’t know how to read and write. It was throughpractical experience. He didn’t even know how to write his own namewell, but he wascalled to serve as an instructor. [This is the question of] bourgeois intellectuals; how is itpossible to implement Marxism-Leninism in a country of illiterates? It isnot you; youwant to provide the answer to your colleagues. That’s the preoccupation of yourcolleagues. Is it possible to establish socialism in Mozambique with illiteracy?

Iain Christie: But, it was comrade President who said that it was not possible to establishsocialism with illiteracy…

Samora Machel: I said it during the campaign of literacy. It is to synthesize; it is to createthe capacity to synthesize the experiences. To formulate a theory; theyare already doingit but it is important to formulate a theory. There are two things here; the first is to knowwhere the theory comes from; from where the theory comes from? From where the ideascome from? They come from practice. Now, we want to synthesize thepractical[experiences]. The goal is to have the ability to synthesize such practical experiences.

Illiterate peasants from Cabo Delgado learned the essence of the system of exploitation ofmen by men from the new group of exploiters represented by [Urias] Simango, Lázaro[Kavandame] who wanted to introduce exploitation in the liberated zones. It was not aMarxist who went to tell them what exploitation was; they didn’t readany compendium.But they felt the exploitation and knew their exploiters. Let’s fight them. There were theones who fought and made the cooperatives succeed against the private and exploitativecommerce and latifundium. There were the ones who fought and made the people’spower succeed. There were the ones who made the working-class power succeed againstthe bourgeoisie and latifundium powers that the new exploiters wanted to impose. Theydon’t know where the door of the university is; they don’t even knowthe door and theway that leads to the university. They don’t know. The popular struggle for liberation andour military science which defeated the colonial and fascist generals were elaborated anddeveloped by our illiterate people. Marxism-Leninism does not cometo our country as animported product. Highlight this very well, this is the idea that we want to fight against,the idea that it is a foreign policy, an imported product or a result ofreading classicaltexts {Marx, Engels, Lenin, Mao]. Our party is not a group of scientists specialized inreading and interpreting Marx, Engels, and Lenin. Our party is notlike that. The struggleof our working class people and their experiences of suffering allow them to assume andinteriorize the principles of scientific socialism. This same struggle contributes to thedevelopment and continuous enrichment of what constitutes the common heritage of allexploited classes and people, Marxism- Leninism. In the process of struggle, wesynthesize our experiences and we further develop our theoretical knowledge. It’sdifferent. The first thing is to arrive at a theory – how to wage war andthen go to fightthe war. We first [fight the war] and then synthesize by solving the problems on a dailybasis. Party members who are illiterate are subjected to special campaigns of literacy inorder to ensure that they further increase their understanding andknowledge of the world.We think that this is in fact the experience of all socialist revolutions.This is what Iwanted to say.

Iain Christie: It’s an important answer … laughs…

Samora Machel: yes, it is. I’m not only replying to you, but it is through you… laughs…

Allen Isaacman: We discussed the following question and we came tothe conclusion thatit doesn’t have much importance…

Samora Machel: It is important. I know it. It is not only you. Avoid the petty bourgeoisieand you’ll not be corrupted; power corrupts; that’s the question you have there…laughs… it’s the essential content of question D. What is the question?

Allen Isaacman and Iain Christie: How is FRELIMO going to avoid the abuse of power?

Samora Machel: How is FRELIMO going to avoid the abuse of power, nepotism, andmany other things? This is what you want to know. Isn’t it? How is the party going toavoid this? I’m right. Because the petty bourgeoisie will eventually go astray as wedevelop and bureaucratize the party, and then we lose our ties withthe people; we lose

the contacts with the people, and under these circumstances abusesof power take place.The question is fair, but the answer is not for you. It is for your friends. I’m answeringthese questions to your friends; this question is for your friends. Because they might bethinking that he has only two or three years in power, and when he industrializes anddoes many other things in the country, we will corrupt him. And they make comparisonswith other countries and predict the same scenarios here. They also think that “when theyhave oil, if they can transform cashew nuts into oil.” Here, there is no oil, but cashewnuts. Our party has a long experience with embezzlement and abuses that arise from theexercise of power. We know this very well. During the process of our struggle, certaincritical mechanisms were developed and put into practice, and theybecame importanthabits for us. Criticism is an important aspect among us. Criticismsin party institutionsand mass criticism. It is not only inside the party, but also among the masses. Do themasses identify themselves with the power [political establishment]or not? From wheredoes the leadership come from? Does the leadership know the realinterests of the peoplein each phase or not? I mean the leadership of the party and the state. Thus, popularvigilance is extremely high, and we strive to increase it further. The leadership structuresare in permanent contact with the masses and they receive from themopinions,criticisms, suggestions, and proposals. We are institutionalizingthis. This is the best way.This is the best way to have admiration, prestige, and to be a permanent representative.This is the way to be in good condition to be able to solve problems and receivesuggestions, proposals and criticisms from the people. The democratic massorganizations are widespread in all sectors of the society like working places andresidential areas. The militants of the party have the right to address all institutions orstructures of the party including the central committee. That’s theirright. Equally,national citizens who are not members of the party have the right toaddress theleadership of the state including the head of state. That’s their right. There are otherforms including writing. There are structures and channels to address the head of state.Who asked me about that woman who married with a Zambian, and I saidshe came backand she is sick.

Iain Christie: Laughs

Samora Machel: I welcomed her as a Mozambican and I talked with her. She is here, andI’m not sure if she left. She was here in Maputo. She is the niece of Lobo ourrepresentative in the United Nations. Her father is our cadre over there. The letters ofreaders in the newspapers, don’t you think this is a new form [of expression] inMozambique? Popular correspondence where people write everything.

Iain Christie: [Ian says something not audible]

Samora Machel: It’s lack of capacity on your part. You find such letters in newspapersand magazines. Tempo magazine reveals several problems to us, andwe take action.Whatever problem is reported in Tempo magazine, such as, hotel, bus, or anything. It isalso an important source of political control. There are well known cases of elements ofthe party leadership and state functionaries who were demoted from their positions andwere exposed publicly for having digressed from the political lineand having had

incorrect behavior. When we proclaimed our independence, we started with the armedforces, a delicate sector. We started with the armed forces. In these circumstances, itseems possible to say that eventual abuses of power that might emerge will be rapidlydetected and sanctioned. This is the answer. Foreign policy. Foreign policy… foreignpolicy…

Iain Christie: In your public speech in September of last year, you, comrade President,talked about the rebellious act of the Ian Smith regime towards the guerrillas. With thesetactics, what are the possibilities of formation of a neocolonial regime in SouthernRhodesia?

Samora Machel: You mean in Zimbabwe?

Iain Christie: Is this issue solved?

Samora Machel: No, no, it is not yet. This issue is not solved yet. Are you saying thisbecause of the declarations from England today? It is typical of imperialistic forces totransfer their crimes to the liberation movements. That is their true nature, their truecharacteristic: in Algeria, Vietnam, Palestine, Mozambique, and Nicaragua. The patriots[nationalists] are always treated as terrorists and rebels. Don’t be surprised about this andthis will continue for sometime; the question of Zimbabwe is not solved yet. Withinternal agreements and recently with fake electoral processes, theracist regimes inNamibia and Southern Rhodesia tried to mask the pretense democratic legitimacy andlegality. These are imperialist forms to find a way to undermine the true militants. Theyare now discussing in England. It’s a tactic of imperialism. It’s part of their globalstrategy; the masks do not change the essence of the regimes; themasks don’t change theessence of the regimes. Salazar and Hitler also organized elections and referendums, andthat didn’t change the despotic and criminal nature of their regimes. The racist armiescontrolled the elections in Namibia and Southern Rhodesia. They forced people to voteand they arrested activists and personalities who opposed forged electoral processes.Large farm and industry owners carried their workers or employees in their trucks to theballot boxes under the watchful and vigilant eyes of the police. Thefalse character ofelectoral pretensions was evident to everyone. The same reasons that made the previousmaneuvers fail will lead to the failure of these current maneuverings. They will lead totheir failure. No matter how black the new black puppet ministers are, they will neverstop prosecuting their own people. They will never stop the executions of their peoplebecause they are puppets. They will not stop public assassinationsdisguised as deaths incrossfire. They will not stop with curfews, concentration camps;thus, the people ofZimbabwe will continue fighting and identify themselves with the patriotic front.Because talking about the patriotic front is talking about the peopleof Zimbabwe at thismoment. They will continue, as they announced, with open aggressions against thesovereign neighboring countries. They will continue to act as puppets. The credibility andviability of these regimes has already been questioned and denounced by the non-alignedmovement, the African Union Organization, and recently by the Security Council. That’swhy we can say that the Patriotic Front is an achievement of the peopleof Zimbabwe. It’sa decisive step and a step forward to overcome the inherited historical divisions which

were fomented by the enemy. Unity is not a static state; it must be seen as a dynamic anda dialectic process. It is a dynamic process of continued growth, which is a result ofmaturity and the conscience of the people facing the demands of the struggle. Themilitants of the Patriotic Front have been achieving indisputable successes incoordinating their activities. We know that. We cannot forget the complete failure of aneffort to recruit one of the wings of the Patriotic Front to support the internal agreementand to oppose the other wing. It is very important to remember all these. In the recentmeeting in Addis Ababa, new steps were taken to coordinate the activities of the twowings especially in the military front. This is a very positive step. The enemy talks somuch about internal divisions in the Patriotic Front. However, the enemy avoids talkingabout the bloody rivalries between different puppets, and these rivalries are well known.Yesterday, Chikerema [James Chikerema] was expelled and he was promoted to thecategory of vice-president. They don’t talk about this; they don’t talk about this. InEngland, none talks about the daily rivalries. Ian Smith acts as if he isa referee of thosepuppets. He is the referee in the midst of them. Like the French colonialists in Algeriaand the Portuguese in Mozambique and like all colonialists and racists, Smith spreads theidea that once colonial domination is removed the people will fall into civil war. This isthe same idea the English also have. You also know this. Tribes, as Marcelo Caetanoonce said; he also declared, “I am not going to commit the sacrilege oftalking withterrorists. Those terrorists; the peoples of Mozambique are still living in a primitivestate.” Primitive tribalism; this was in 1962. So, those who cause racist, colonial andaggressive wars, and those who foment tribalism and racism, and cause intrigues, theyalways desire to present themselves as sources of peace, stability, and unity. This is themain issue. That’s what we find in Zimbabwe, South Africa, and unfortunately the westlistens to them. We see all western media supporting these ideas. It would be a bigsurprise for us if the west would stand on the right and just side. The west has alwaysstood for the unjust and wrong side. In three years the Patriotic Front survived all thecrises- listen to this very well. The Patriotic Front evolved and with thesupport of all thefriends of Zimbabwe, it will continue to be a responsible movement. And you asked meabout the illegal aggression of the Ian Smith government against the Mozambican people.

Ian Christie: I would like you to comment on the strategic changes ofthe regime.

Samora Machel: Let’s start by parts; the illegal regime of Ian Smithstarted attackingMozambique and it has declared its attacks many times, but the west has not revealed[and published] this and they won’t mention it. But, we’ll repeat andsay that it didn’tstart only now; they started attacking us in 1975. They started attacking the Mozambicanpeople beginning in 1975. The first attacks of Smith troops took place in the NiassaProvince. So, it is wrong to make a connection between the Smith attacks with theclosure of the border [between Mozambique and Zimbabwe], and our support for the juststruggle of the people of Zimbabwe. As the struggle for the liberation of Zimbabwegrows, the desperate regime increases its aggressiveness. Thisyear, the regime attackedAngola, a country without any border with Zimbabwe.

During these attacks, they massacred hundreds of people. Let’s remember for theirsavagery the massacres of Inhazónia and Chimoio. With the increased strength of our

defensive forces, it has become impossible for the enemy to launch those kinds ofoperations. Today, the enemy resorts to air bombardments and timely selected operationsof banditry. Operations of banditry; the organization of the population and the increasedmobility of our troops are limiting the room for operations of groups of bandits. Thefourth and fifth questions have to do with the policy of clemency. These questions are ofgreat interest to me.

Allen Isaacman: Until March of this year, Mozambique was the only African countrywith a death sentence. Did this new law come up as a direct result of thepractices of theillegal regime of Ian Smith?

Samora Machel: Very well, I am very happy with your question. I hada meeting with thejournalist Loforte. I asked the question “clemency towards whom?”When we talk aboutclemency, I ask the question “clemency towards whom?” Perhaps, one needs to translatethis: “clemency towards whom?”

Samora Machel: My question is “clemency towards whom?” When did wehave thepolicy of clemency? We were at war against Portuguese colonialism.It was clemency forPortuguese soldiers. It was clemency for Portuguese prisonersof war. Where are theprisoners of war? I’m not at war right now. Don’t confuse this issue; this is a criticalissue; clemency towards whom? I don’t know if you understand thisvery well. Clemencytowards whom? We said that the policy of clemency is an achievement of our people’sstruggle. Listen to this very well. It is also an achievement of humanity. The purpose ofthis policy is to provide a decent and humane treatment of prisoners ofwar. Are theseprisoners of war? So, clemency towards whom? Let’s not confuse alaw that ensures thesafety of people against crimes and the people’s state. Don’t confuse this with war. Thereactionaries’ forces in our midst wanted us to execute the captured Portuguese prisoners.We resolutely opposed this. The Second FRELIMO Congress clearly decided in favor ofthe policy of clemency. We never made the confusion between the Portuguese people andcolonialism. Hence, when we captured the Portuguese troops or whenthey surrenderedthemselves, we gave them a humane treatment. It’s a glory and honorfor our army thatthere was never a single prisoner of war who was killed by us or who died during hiscaptivity. Never; many were captured injured. Our soldiers gave their blood to save theirlives. At the end of the war, we provided a complete list of prisoners of war, includingthose who were unilaterally released by us, and returned hundreds of them.Unfortunately, the opposing army was unable to do the same thing or even to return asingle prisoner. We picked up children in the war zones. We picked upwomen in warfronts. We picked up civilians and we sent all of them to Portugal. We paid all of them togo to Portugal. This is well known. Now, you say that “until such and such year, therewas clemency…” We didn’t lose the policy of clemency. But, now, clemency towardswhom? The law on crimes against the security of people and the people’s state doesn’tforesee any sentence for a war prisoner. Take note of this. It doesn’t foresee any penaltyagainst a war prisoner. This means that captured soldiers of anarmy or soldiers whosurrender are covered by that law only in extreme cases, and it doesn’t have anything todo with prisoners of war and consequently with the policy of clemency that we maintain.This law condemns war crimes, crimes against humanity, crimes against international

peace, mercenary crimes, piracy, kidnapping, espionage, sabotage, terrorism, hightreason, and other serious hate crimes. The death penalty is only applied to many of thesecrimes in cases where there is the death of the victim or when the victim ispermanentlyincapacitated or impaired. If we analyze case by case the situationof those people whohave been sentenced and executed, you’ll see that the kind of crimes they committedwere extremely barbarous and these crimes included mercenary crimes, war crimes orcrimes against humanity. It’s very shocking that countries that refuse to take any actionsor measures to prevent their territories from being used to recruit and arm mercenariesand as transit places for mercenaries don’t do anything to preventtheir citizens frombeing freely involved in assassinations in our countries, and dare to condemn elementarymeasures of repression against these kinds of crimes. Our state and revolution have theright and duty of self- defense and self-protection.

Allen Isaacman: Recently, the People’s Republic of Mozambique condemned thePeople’s Republic of China for attacking Vietnam. Does this representa FRELIMO shiftof policy in relation to the Sino-Soviet division in the international communistmovement?

Samora Machel: since you’re talking about the world, we want to answer your questions.It’s not you who are interested in this issue; there are other people who are interested inthis issue. They think that there are some changes going on in Mozambique.TheFRELIMO Party defended and still defends the unity of the communist movement andthe international working class movement. We will always act in favor ofthis unity. Indifferent situations, we may have disagreements with friendly parties and also opposingviews. As a matter of principle, we refrain from having public debatesabout thesedisagreements and contradictions although in private we don’t hesitateto present ourviewpoints when we are asked to do so. We have as a principle to systematicallydistinguish the mistakes of our friends, no matter how serious they are, from the actionsof our enemies. This distinction allows us to give a different treatmentto differentsituations. No matter how damaging the mistakes of our friends are, wenever forget theirsupport in difficult moments and the contribution they provided to the revolutionarymovement in other circumstances and moments. Do you understand this?The principleof respecting the borders and the inviolability of the national territory, the peacefulresolution of conflicts between states and of not resorting to military force ininternational relations; these are basic and elementary principles that safeguardinternational peace and security; these principles should be safeguarded and protected byall states. The People’s Republic of China is a friendly country, butby invading Vietnam,it violated these basic principles. If we had remained quiet, it would have meant that wetacitly accepted a serious violation of rules that regulate international relations. Theviolation hurt us so much because it was a fellow socialist country attacking another one.Our friendship with the People’s Republic of China remains unchanged and the same canbe said about the high appreciation that we still have for the supportthat they gave us inour difficult times and for the historical contribution of the Chinese revolution to thedevelopment of the revolutionary process in the world. We support the friendly helpprovided by the Socialist Republic of Vietnam to Kampuchea. The same way, we supportthe friendly help of the United Republic of Tanzania to Uganda. Vietnam like Tanzania

has been attacked several times by despotic and expansionist regimes, and in theirlegitimate defense they had the right to neutralize the aggressors. In the context ofinternational solidarity, they supported insurrections against despotic regimes. We arealways careful to know whom the guns should be turned against. Arethey turned againstthe people or tyranny? Today, in Southwest Asia, Vietnam, Laos, and Kampuchea arebuilding strong, supportive, and friendly relations which constitute a fundamental factorfor the triumph of the socialist cause in the region, and this allows the consolidation ofinternational and regional peace and security. Between Tanzania and Uganda there is anenvironment of peace and cooperation, which will contribute to the stability and progressof East Africa and strengthening the liberation struggle of southern Africa. We areencouraged by the beginning of negotiations between China and Vietnam, and westrongly wish that these negotiations will be successful so that theycan restore thetraditional and revolutionary friendship between the peoples and states of the region andrebuild the anti-imperialist front. This is our position.

Allen Isaacman: how do you characterize the relations between Mozambique and theUnited States, and in your opinion, do you think that President Carter’s policy towardsSouthern Africa is different from Ford’s and Nixon’s? And what can the United States doto improve its relations with Mozambique?

Samora Machel: I’m going to answer your question and I’ll highlightsome issues. Wesay that the people of the United States of America condemned Portuguese colonialismand they were opposed to the American administrations’ support forthe colonial wars ofaggression. They were also involved in providing material and humanitarian support forour struggle. The Nixon administration against the will of the American people was sadlyrenowned for supporting the Portuguese fascist government. The Ford administration wasforced to accept the political and military defeat of Portuguese colonialism in Africa, andit established diplomatic relations with the People’s Republic of Mozambique. PresidentCarter and his administration are striving to develop a new American policy towardsAfrica, which can lead the United States to separate itself from unjust causes ofcolonialism, racism, and apartheid. These intentions are positive, however, the realitiesare far from the expressed goodwill. We have been observing shaky and hesitantpositions with regards to Zimbabwe and Namibia. The disengagement from the Anglo-American plan towards Zimbabwe, and the disengagement of the five western powersfrom Namibia show the lack of coherence and capacity to implement a policy of goodintentions. These are difficulties that go beyond the individual goodwill of leaders of the[American political] system. These are contradictions and inabilities inherent in theregime. There is a wall and when President Carter came to power,he found this wall thathe cannot destroy. The will and system in place. So, the question is how to reconcile thegoodwill and the existing system. However, it is true that there is a difference; the Nixonadministration was renowned for its imperialistic aggressiveness;aggressiveness in manyplaces; violence: in Vietnam and several places. Aggressiveness and violence. Carter hasgoodwill, but we have to wait a little longer. We have to wait a little longer. Bilateralrelations are developing normally, and the improvement of these relations dependsexclusively on the United States. We cannot say “United States do this.” We establishedrelations with the United States of America, putting a sponge [an eraser” on the past]; we

established diplomatic relations with the United States and we put a sponge [on the past];but, the United States decided to put Mozambique on a black list, a country that they havediplomatic relations with. Now, we don’t know what to say to the UnitedStates. That’swhy we say everything depends exclusively on the United States. However, with thebusiness community, there are relations of mutual benefits. Thisis my answer withregards to the United States. They decided to place Mozambique on a black list, and theywill decide when they will remove Mozambique from that list.

Someone in the audience: perhaps, they have decided…

Samora Machel: they will decide when they will remove Mozambique from the black list.What’s the matter? We are already tired [of talking].