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NB:Episode4–DRAG
Whatdoesdragmeanfornon-binaryfolk?Ifit’snotmendressedaswomenlip-sync’ingtoGloriaGaynor,whatisit?Whatcanyoulearnfromdragwhenyou’reexploringyourowngenderidentity?
AmroutakesCaitlinintotheworldofdragwithfellownon-binarydragartistsCrystaleRasmussenandChiyoGomes.MorganMPage,historybuffandhostoftranshistorypodcastOneFromTheVaults,revealstheradicalhistoryofdrag.
PresentedbyCaitlinBenedictandAmrouAl-Kadhi
ProducedbyCaitlinBenedict,ArlieAdlingtonandGeorgiaCatt
Transcript:
Caitlin-voiceover: Thisepisodecontainsstronglanguageadultcontentandasustainedattackonthememoryofeightiesindierock.Ifyou'velistenedtothefirstthreeepisodesofthispodcast,you'vemetAmrou.Wellnowit'stimetomeetGlamrou.HugeWig,evenhugerstilettos,andaverymemorablethong.
MC: Forthefirsttimeintwentyyearsforonenightonly.
Caitlin-voiceover: They'replayingwithgender.We'relookingforgendereuphoria.
[Clipfrom"Euphoria"byLoreenplaysthencutsout.]
Caitlin-voiceover: Yeah.I'msorry.Wecan'tusecommercialmusicinapodcast.Blametheinternationalcopyrightlawyers.You’regoingtohavetomakedowiththisoldclassicinstead.
Caitlin-voiceover: ThisisNB.
Amrou-voiceover: Non-binary
Caitlin-voiceover: Dismantlingthegenderbinary.
Amrou-voiceover: Onebigquestionatatime.
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Caitlin-voiceover: I'mCaitlinandI'mjustfiguringoutmygenderidentity.
Amrou-voiceover: I'mAmrouandI'vebeenoutforawhile,
Caitlin-voiceover: Amrouisgoingtosharewhatthey'velearned.
Amrou-voiceover: Andhopefullylearnsomenewthingstoo.
Caitlin-voiceover: Okay,let'sgo.
Amrou-voiceover: Thisispartfour.
Caitlin-voiceover: Drag.
Morgan: Dragactuallyisdeeplyentwinedwiththehistoryofthetranscommunity.Ifyouscratchthesurfaceofanydraghistoryatall,youturnupmostlytranspeople,
Caitlin-voiceover: Artist,writerandtranshistorian,MorganMPage.
Caitlin: SohowlonghaveyoubeenintheUKfor?
Morgan: Um,I'vebeenintheUKforoneyear.
Caitlin: Wow.Fresh…
Morgan: IarrivedNewYear'sDay,2018.Overnightflight.Verydramatic.Itwasahardtransition.Myfavouritekind.
Caitlin-voiceover: She'scometomeetusintheparktogiveusahistorylesson.Morganhasapodcast,which—
Morgan-voiceover: —bringsyouallofthedirt,gossipandglamourfromtranshistory.
Morgan: OneFromTheVaultsstartedthreeyearsagoaspartofacomplexrevengeplotagainstanex-boyfriend!IdecidedthatIwouldmakeitimpossibletoignoremyexistenceintheworldbybecomingverysuccessfulatsomething,so…
Amrou: It'sagoodstrategy.
Morgan: Butinreality,whereitstartedwasIusedtorunatransyouthgroupforfourandahalfyearsinToronto.AndoneofthethingsthatInoticedwasthatalotoftransyouthdon'tknowanythingabouttheirpast.Andinfact,manythoughtthatthereweren'tanytranspeopleinthepast,thattherewasnohistorytodrawon.AndwhenIwouldbringupcertainhistoricalfigures,certainstories,Icouldreallyseethemlightupandimaginethemselvesforthefirsttimelivinganykindoflifethattheywanted.AndIthinkthere'salotofpowerinthat.
Amrou: Isupposedragisverywelldocumentedintermsofavisualhistoryoflikenon-conforminggenderidentities.AndI'mwonderinghowmuchdraghistorieswere
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interestingtoyouwhenyouwerebeginningyourtransitionorforotherpeoplethatyou'vespokento?
Morgan: Yeah,definitely.Therearemanydragperformerswho-bothinthepresentandhistorically-livedwhatwemightunderstandastranslives,butwouldn'tnecessarilya)haveaccesstothatlanguageorb)um,identifywiththatasaprimaryidentificationnecessarily.OneofthemostlegendarydragbarsofalltimeisTheCarouselinFrance,whichinthe1950sand1960swaspopulatedalmostentirelybytranswomen.Nearlytoaone,nearlyeverysingleperformerwhoworkedtherewenttoCasablancaandhadsurgerywithDr.GeorgesBurou.AndthatincludespeoplelikeEngland'sownAprilAshley,andavarietyofotherpeople,Bambi…thatsortofthing.ThenyouhavepeoplelikeSylviaRiverafromtheStonewallRiots,um,whohelpedfoundStreetTransvestiteActionRevolutionaries,oneofthefirstdirectactiontransrightsgroups,whoisareallygoodcasestudybecausesheshowstheevolutionoflanguagearoundthetimeoftheStonewallRiots.Sheusedwordsforherself,likedragqueen,transvestiteandgaybroadly,notlikegaymen,justgaybroadly.Andovertimethatactuallychanged.Sobythetimeitwasthe90sandtransgenderwasawordthatwasbeingusedmorecommonly,sheusedthattorefertoherselfinanumberofinterviews.
Amrou: Thewaydragisrepresentedatthemoment,itfeelstomaybethepublicisit'sacisman'shistory,whentransidentitieshavereallybeenerasedfromkindofthedragidiompopculturally…
Morgan: Hmm,suchas,um,StorméDeLarveriewhowasablackdragkingwhowasbeingbeatenupbypoliceattheStonewallInnin1969whendragqueenscametotheirdefenceandstartedthestonewallriots.Sothishistory,itcan'tbetakenapart.It'sverydeeplyentwined.
Caitlin-voiceover: Andthereareheapsoftransandnon-binarydragperformersworkingnow-likeAmrou.
Caitlin: So,onourwaytoseeGlamrou,tomeetGlamrouforthefirsttime.I'mwithproducerArlie,um,andwe'regoingtogowatchsome,somedraghappenandwatchAmroubecomeGlamrou,whichI'mvery,veryexcitedabout.Theideaofthetranscommunityorthenon-binarycommunityandthedragcommunityhavinganyoverlapfeltquitealientomebefore,Iguess.ThereweresometranswomenonRuPaul'sDragRace,andthatkindofopenedupmymindinalotofways,butIalsoreallylikewhat,um,whatAmrouhasbeensaying,kindofthewholewaythroughthisprocess,abouthowauthenticperformingasGlamroufeelstothem.Um,andthatperhapstoanextentthere'sasmuchofaperformancegoingoninthestreetasthereisonstage.Yeah.SoIhaven'tactuallyseenthatmuchdrag.I'mlookingforwardtoseeing,uh,whatadragtroupethatistwofifthsnon-binarylookslikeandsoundslikeandallofthosesortofthings.AndnowweareplungingintoSohoproperonaThursdayeveningtogotoadragshow.It'spastmybedtimealready.
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Caitlin-voiceover: Outside,Imeetfellowdragartist,ChiyoGomesandweheaduptoaroomonthetopfloortogether.Inside,AmrouandTom-GlamrouandCrystal-aremid-transformation.
Tom: AndI'mjustusingthispressedpowdertocreatecontouronmyface.
Caitlin-voiceover: Thetableisstrewnwitheyeshadows,lipstickspowder,mascaraandheapsofglitter.Theyletussetupourmicsothatwecanhangoutwhilsttheywork.
Caitlin: Sodoyouwanttointroduceyourselftous,Chiyo?
Chiyo: Um,okay,cool.Um,mynameisChiyo.I'm22.Iworkasafreelancecabaretartist.Idroppedoutofunitododrag,soIhopeitworksout.
Caitlin: Tom,youwanttointroduceyourself?
Tom: Yeah,I'm,I'mTom,butbymoonlightasCrystalOBE.Um,yeah,I'madragperformerandawriter.
Amrou: Theyhaveabookcomingactually,calledDiaryofaDragQueen.I'vereadhalfofitandI'mliterallylike,Idropitlaughingsohardonthetube.It'sbeautiful.
Caitlin: Chiyo,howdidyougetintodrag?
Chiyo: Um,Igotintodragthoughsexworkactually.
Caitlin: Wow.
Chiyo: IwasatuniandIneededtomakeextramoneysoIstartedcominganddoingsexworkontheside.Andum,oneday,wellIwasgoingthroughagenderidentitycrisisandaracialidentitycrisistobehonest.AndIwasplayingaroundwithmakeupandIwaslike,wouldn'titbesofunnyifIjustlikelogintocamandeveryone'sexpectingthishighfemme,nakedshebangandI'mjustlike,"Hahalol,Ilooklikeaman.Whatyougonnado?"Soitwasa,anexperiment.ButbeforeIwouldlogininto,tothecammingsite,IwouldtakepicturesandputonInstagramandpeoplejustassumedthatIwasadragkingfromthosepicturesandstartedbookingmeforshowsandIwaslike"Oh!"
Caitlin: Greatscamofthecentury,welldone.Um,and,andhowdiditfeelstartingtoperform?
Chiyo: Um,it'sgonnasoundproperclichébutfeltlikeacalling,youknow,likeIwasstuckinthiscorporateworldandIwaslike,"Nah,I'mtooqueerforthis."
Caitlin: Doesthatresonateforyoutoo?
Tom: Imean,Iwasdoingdragsince…IwaswearingdressesathomesinceIwaslikesixand,butlikeshuttingmyselfinmyroomandwearingdressesandIhada
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reallygreatgrandmawhowould,like,makedressesforme,butmymumanddadwerereallynotokaywithit.
Caitlin: Sodoyoufeellikeforyou,uh,thekindofgenderquestionkindofaroseatthesametimeasstartingtodotododrag?Oraretheykindoftwoseparatethingsinyourhead?
Tom: Yeah,Imeantheydon'tfeellikedistinctpeopletome,meandCrystal.AndIalsofeellikeI,Iwasjustsoprivytosomuchgendernonconformitygrowingup.Youknow,whereI'mfromisareallyworkingclassplaceandthewomentherethatIspentallmytimewithweresupernonconforming.EventhoughtheywerealltotallywoulddefineaswomenandprobablythinkthatIwaschattingshitrightnow,butthere'ssomeoftheseamazing,likebrusque,like,hard,brilliantwomenwhohadallthesereallyoftenquitescarymenundertheirthumbsthattomewasseeinggendernonconformityandthat'swhatIwas.
Caitlin: Anddragbecomesanavenueforexpressingthat.
Tom: Orjustsomethingthatfeelsreallynatural.
Chiyo: Doyouknowwhat?IfeellikewhenIfirststarteddoingdrag,Ialwaysusedtoexplainitasbeingacopingmechanismforgenderdysphoriabecauseit'slikethisoutlet,um,beingtransandtryingtoexploreyourtransnessandcometotermswithyouridentity.Buthonestly,nowIdon'tthinkIresonatewithitinthesamewayanymorebecausewhatwasonceacopingmechanismisnowbecomingsortofatrigger.Um,Idon'tthinkthatwecantalkaboutgenderwithouttalkingaboutraceandallofmydragkingfriendsarepredominantlywhiteandtheyhaveBritishcitizenship.Andwewerethiscommunitywhoareallusingthiscopingmechanismto,toexpressourselves.ButgraduallyIwatchedthemalltakestepsintheirtransitionbecausetheycanbecausetheyhavethatprivilege.Andit'sweirdbecausemyheartissohappyforthem,andyou'resoproudandyou'relike,yes,slayinyourtransness,liveyourbestlife!Um,butthenit'sthatreminderthatIcan'tdothosethings.Andthenthat'swhereIthinkraceandgendercometoplayalot.
Caitlin: Talkusthroughtheprocess.Whathappensfirstwhenyou'regettingintodrag?
Amrou: Shave…Soyoulookabitlikeaprepubescentchicken…um,sprayfacejusttolikerefresh.
Caitlin: Whatyousprayingitwith?
Amrou: Prepandprime.AndthengluedowneyebrowswithPritstick.It'ssoritualistic.
Caitlin: Yeah,Icanreallyseethat.
Amrou: It'sliketwohoursofjustlikeyouandyourself.Itremindsmeofwhatitusedtobeliketopray.Ifinditquitespiritualgettingintodrag,it'slikeeverysingletime
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bytheendofitI'mquitelike,phew,IfeellikeI'mfloatingalittlebit.I'minterestedinwhatyourprocessisChiyobeforeyougetintodrag.
Chiyo: Uh,IalwaysstartwithmychestbecauseIwillneedtobindit.AndthenIwillprepmyface…prime…sick.Um,startcontouring,beardgoeslast,andthenfinaltape.
Amrou: Sowhat'sthefinaltape?
Chiyo: Kinesiologysportstape.Mychestisfullofopenskinwoundsandlikeblisters,andpeelingskin.Itmightonedayaffectmysurgery,butyoujustgottobearwiththetape.
Amrou: Really?
Chiyo: Sothat'swhyIneedtomassageandjustmakesurethatmychestiscool.
Tom: Youknow,tuckingorbindingorwearingheelsorwhateverorthatevenjustthelevelofperformanceandactivity,likethepainofgenderinaliteralsense,it'sreally,weusedtotalkaboutthisalot,itisreallydisplayedthroughtheprocessofgettingintodragandworkingindrag.Andalsothepainintermsofhowlittlesafetythereisininaworldwherewe'renotinaroomlikethis.Like,Iwashavingaconversationwithafriendtheotherdayabout,Iwasjustsayinghowit'sfunnyhowtherehasbeensuchanupindraganddragconversationandRuPaulandwhatloadsofpeoplewatchRuPaul.Andyouknow,there'sbeenabiggerdemandinsayinglikeforDenimthisyearthanever.Yeah.Butthemomentyoustepoutonthestreet,itremainsthesameifnotworse,Ifound.Idon'tevenstep,Iwouldn'treallystepoutsidethebuilding.Iwouldn'tstepoutsidethebuildingindrag,whichreallyfuckingbumsmeout.Itusedtobelike,"I'mthequeen"butit'sjustsomuchmorecomplicatedthanthatformenow.AndIthinkthatthat'sliterallygonehandinhandwithpeople'srisingawarenessofdrag,whichisinteresting.
Amrou: Whenwewerebothatuniandhad,youknow,thatkindofyouthful,like,theworldissogoodvibe,youknow,[we]somuchmoregendernonconformingjusteverysingledayandwearingdresseseveryday.SinceyougotpunchedandthenIhadthehatecrimehappentomeonabus,it'slike,youknow,youhavetodosomethingquitedysphoricandgooutinboyclothesallthetime.Ihatethat.Ihatethat-likeIonlyfeelsafedoingdraginatheatre.
Tom: Idon'tknowhowtopresentright.Idon'tknow.Istilldon'tknowhowtopresentrightforme.AndactuallythethingthatIclickintothemostoftenisjustwhatwillkeepmesafe.Soeveryoneelseismakingthatdecisionforme.It'sneverme.Homophobiahasbeenlikeahugepartofmylife.It'salwaysbeenabouthowI'vetransgressedmygenderthatpeoplecan'tcopewithbecausereallyI'mquitebigandIlookquitemale.ButbecauseI'vealwaysbeensounbelievablyeffeminate,it'saboutthatdisjunct.Soit'sjustinterestingtohearyou,thewayswe'veallbeenpunishedinpublicspaceisabouthowourgendersdon'tmatchwhat'sexpectedofourbodies.
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Caitlin: Howdoesperformingandperformingspecificallyinawaythat,uh,is,istalkingaboutgender,doesitgosomewaytokindofreclaimingthatforyou?Isitcomplicated?Isitdysphoricsometimes?Likehow,howdoesitfeel?
Chiyo: Whenit'sspecialspacesthatItrulyfeelareauthenticallyqueer,Idofeellikebybeingonthatstage,bybeingpresent,bybeinginmyform,inmybodyandstillbeingadamantthatIamtransnomatterwhatmybodylookslike,Idofeellikethatthereisownershipandthatisaformofreclaimingthetransidentity.Um,butthenIgotothesespacesthatIjust,Idon'tfeellikethey,they,theygetitortheywillappreciateitorthey…SometimesIquestionwhetherenergyshouldbespenttryingto,um,sharetruths.Likesometimes,youquestionthepointandinthosemoments,itfeelslikeaformofaggression.
Caitlin: Yeah,Ihearthat.
Tom: Ifeellikethat'sIthinkthat's,I,Ireallyfeelthattoo.ButIfeellikesometimesitbecomescomplicatedforme.Maybeit'sbecauseIhaveanormativity[sic]tomethatwhenIthinkabout,whenIthinkaboutmymumreallyandhowhomophobicshewasandhowshe'snotanymoreandhowshe'sactuallyquiteanunbelievablepersonandanally.
Amrou: Shereallyis.
Tom: Youknow,really,reallyis.
Amrou: She'sbeentothisshowmorethanIseemyownparents,period.
Tom: Youknow,butlikesayahomeinLancaster,whichiswhereI'mfrom,sheworksintheNHS,thehealthcareservicefordifferentlyabledpeople.Andshewasthefirstpersoninthewholenorthwesttocampaignforthehiringoftranspeopletotakecareof,um,youknow,othervulnerablepeople.Andthat'slike,youknow,myselfandalotofpeopleinthiscommunitypaylipservicetohowtranspeople,youknow,are,inpercentage-wise,havesomeofthehighestratesofunemployment.Butthereismymumwhodoesn'tnecessarilyknowtherightthings,butis,like,actuallydoingthatonthegroundoverthere.AndthatchangeisbecauseoftheenergyI'veputinandtheworkshe'sputintoo.Sothere's,there'smomentsandmaybethat'sbecauseshe'smymum.But,like,thosemomentswhereIfeellikethere'smaybevaluetothatenergy,andtothatlabourandtobelike,I'mgoingtochangeyourmindandI'mgoingtohopefullymakeyougooutanddosomethingaboutthis.But90%ofthetime,ifnotmore,it'snotthatway.Andactuallythat'sbecauseI'vesatandfoughtwithmymumforoveradecadeaboutthisstuff,andactuallythat'snotthesame.SoactuallyIkindoftakeallthatback.Butshoutouttomum!HeyMum!
Chiyo: Idohearthatthough,Idothinkthat,um,thereareaudienceswhoarelikeopentolistenandengagein,um,havediscussions.Ithinkiftheperformershouldgothroughthelabourthatcomeswithteachingthosestuff,theneveryoneinvolvedinthatproductionshouldmakesurethatperformersarebeingpaidright.Ortheycangethomesafe,thattheyarehappyandcomfortableinthat
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space,thattheycanpeeinatoiletbecauseit'sgenderneutral,youknow?SoIfeellikeit'sthesmallthings.
Amrou: Oftenthatdoesn'thappen.
Chiyo: Yeah.
Caitlin: I’llcometoseeyoulive.Pleasedoashowat,like,6pm.
Chiyo: Okay,cool.
Amrou: You'requitelike,"Cheersbutlike,Iwillthinkaboutthat."
Tom: CanIaskyouaquestion?
Caitlin: Yeah.
Tom: About-obviouslyifyou'renotcomfortable,don'tworryaboutit-butaboutcomingouttoyoudad,what,what'sthatprocesslookinglike?Andyouknow,howareyoufeelingaboutthat?Areyou,areyouokay?
Caitlin: Ifeelsortofthisprocessofmakingthispodcastsofarhasbeenquitetherapeuticforme.Justgettingallofmyideasaboutmyselfreallystraight.
Tom: Right.
Caitlin: And,andbecomingmorearticulateaboutwhatkindofpersonIamandhowIactually,uh,amgoingtoexpressmygenderandallofthelittlequestionsyouhaveaboutnotbeing,formebeing,um,assignedfemaleatbirth,notkindofbeingmasculineenoughornotpresentingas,askindofgenderfucky[sic]enoughallthetime.
Tom: Right.
Caitlin: Um,andyouknow,questionsaboutwhatI'mgoingtodowithmyselfinthefuture.Allofthosesortofthingsaround,youknow,hormonesandsurgeryandthethingsthateveryoneelseseemsreallyfixatedonbutaresosecondarytome,youknow,soit's,um,Ifeellikemyhead'sprettystraightnow.HopefullyevenbythetimeIgettoAustralia,it'llbeevenstraighter.
Tom: You'regoingtorecordit?
Caitlin: Yeah.
Tom: Doyouthinkitwillgookay?
Caitlin: Ithinkso.Myparentsareprettycool.
Tom: Alright.
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Caitlin: Ithinkthey'reprettycool.Butalsoit'sbeenreallyaffirmingformetolikespendtimewithAmrouandArlieandallthewonderfulguestswe'vehad,includingyoutwoofcourse.Um,becausebeingsurroundedbyotherqueerpeopleandum,peoplewhoareexpressingtransandnon-binaryidentitiesindifferentwaysand,andrealisingthatthereisnowaythatIwouldeversaytoanyonethatI'vemetthroughoutthisprocessthat,"You'renotdoingthisright,you'renottransenough,you'renotqueerenough,"anyofthosethings,reallystopsmesayingthosethingstomyself.
Caitlin-voiceover: SoweleaveAmrouandTomtotheendoftheirpreparationsandproducerArlieandIheadintoseetheshow.It'stimetomeetGlamrou.Theshowisamazing.Theblackpaintedwoodenboxofavenueistransformedbytheenergyoffiveincredibledragartists.Glamrouisarevelation.IseeAmrouinawholenewlightandI'malittleflustered.
Caitlin: Thatwassoincredible.AndI,youknow,Ihaven'tseenheapsofdrag.Thatwasawesome.Ifeltlike,IknowAmroubetter.I'vegotlotsofquestionsforthemabouthowitfeelstodothatandyouknowhowtheygotsoflexible!
Caitlin-voiceover: Aftertheshow,Igohomeanddosomeexperimentingofmyown.
Caitlin: SoI'mgoingtodosomedrag,gonnadosomebedroomdrag.Idon'tknowifthere'slikeaspecialterminthedragcommunityfor,like,dragthatyoujustdobecauseyouareboredandyouhadyoursoup…
Caitlin-voiceover: Butwheredoyoustart?Idecidedtotrydressingupasoneofmypersonalstyleiconsandultimateproblematicfaves,Morrissey.
Caitlin: AndIknowthatthatisreally,reallydisgraceful.Whatabunchofopinionsthatmanhas.
Caitlin-voiceover: Mybadtasteinalteregosaside,Iwanttoseehowitactuallyfeelstogetintodrag.
Caitlin: Haven'tgotmyglassesonsoit'sgoingtobeextragood.I'mmakingmyselfsomecheekbones.I'mshadingmytemples'causeI'vegotreallysomesunkentemples.Isthatgood?Idon'tknowifthat'sgood.Mightjustgonnalookdirty.It'spossible.Ohwow.Hey,tellyouwhat,darkeningaroundyourmouthreallydoesmakeyoulookmoremasculine.No,Ijustlookdirty.IshouldputabitofthisbrowneyeshadowlikeunderneathmyeyestomakemyselfseemlikeI'mtiredfromtalkingaboutmysadnessinthe1980s,youknow?Andtheotherthingtodoisbind…Bitofnudepodcastingnow…ifeveryoneisenjoyingthat.Okay,thisisreallyfun.
Ialwaysalwayskindofassumedthatdragisallaboutlikeputtingoncostumes,puttingoncharacters,doingstuffthat'skindantitheticaltowhoyouare.ButIknowforAmrou,andIknowforTomandIknowforChiyo,forallofthem,it'sallaboutconnectiontoyourself.It'saboutlikeritual.There'slikeaself-careaspecttoallofthis.Andthenthegettingonstageisaboutlikefindinganartisticwayto
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funnelyourauthenticity,tobe,like,funwithyourgender?That'sthething.It'sreallyfun.
Caitlin-voiceover: Inthenextepisode,we'llbetalkingabouthowitistoliveinyourbodyasanon-binaryperson.Andthere'salotofweighttothatandtothechoicesthatyouhavetomake.
Butit'snotalwayslikethat,sometimeswe'rejustallowedtoenjoyourselves.
Amrou-voiceover: You’vebeenlisteningtoNB.Presentedbythem,CaitlinBenedict.
Caitlin-voiceover: Andthem,AmrouAl-Kadhi.
Amrou-voiceover: YoucanfindusbothonTwitter.Caitlinis@caitlinbenny
Caitlin-voiceover: Amrouis@glamrou
Amrou-voiceover: NBwasproducedbyArlieAdlington,CaitlinBenedictandGeorgiaCatt.
Caitlin-voiceover: TheeditorwasAliceFeinstein.
Amrou-voiceover: ItwasaBBCRadioArtsproductionforBBCSounds.
Caitlin-voiceover: SubscribetoNB,thebestpodcast,onBBCSounds.
Amrou-voiceover: Thereareotherpodcastsontheretoo…
Caitlin-voiceover: Butthisisthebestone.
Transcriptends.