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hans hollein

PROTIV TOGA SAM DA ARHITEKTURA BUDENEUTRALNA

I AM AGAINST ARCHITECTURE BEING NEUTRAL

oris

Od ranih šezdesetih sve do danas vi ste prostor za arhitekturu neprekidno proširivali. U tome smislu svi smo mi vaši dužnici. Vaša prisutnost i relevancija neosporna je desetljećima. Smatrate li da je tome uzrok između ostalog i postojanost vaših koncepata u tom smislu da stojite iza svojih ideja i danas kao i u vrijeme njihova nastanka.

oris

Ever since the early sixties, you have kept on ex­panding the space for architecture. In that sense we are all indebted to you. Your presence and relevance have been unquestionable for decades now. Do you think that the cause of this has been, among other things, the perseverance of your concepts, in the sense that you stand behind your ideas equally today as when they first appeared?

Hans Hollein, uz Petera Eisenmana, Aratu Izosakija, Franka Gehryja, pripada vrhunskoj skupini arhitekata svoje generacije. Taj dobitnik najpresti‘nije nagrade za arhitekturu “Pritzker” (1985.) prisutan je na svjetskoj arhitektonskoj sceni od ranih šezdesetih godina. Njegovi su koncepti i realizacije izvršili značajan utjecaj – trgovina Retti revolucionirala je gradnju trgovina; njegov muzej u Mönchengladbchu revolucionirao je tematiku muzeja, ali i dokinuo granicu između kuće i grada, kuće i krajolika. Hollein, čiji se radovi nalaze u najpoznatijim muzejima (MOMA, Centar Pompidou, Stedelijk Museum, itd.), suvereno prelazi granice između arhitekture, skulpture, slikarstva, konceptualne umjetnosti. Njegovi koncepti i manifesti jednako su aktualni i uzbudljivi danas kao i u vrijeme njihova nastanka.Hans Hollein belongs to a generation of splendid architects such as Peter Eisenman, Arat Izosaki, and Frank Gehry. In 1985 he received the prestigious Pritzker Award for architecture. He has been present on the international architectural scene since the early 1960s. His ideas and buildings have influenced a great many people; his Retti Candle Shop revolutionised small store design, his Museum in Mönhengladbach revolutionised the concept of the museum and cancelled out the distinction between the house and the city, between the house and the landscape. His work is found in the world’s greatest museums such as MOMA, the Pompidou Centre and the Stedelijk Museum. Hollein masterfully straddles the lines between architecture, sculpture, painting and conceptual art. His ideas and manifestos are as current and thrilling today as when they first appeared.

razgovarali u Beču 05.12.2004. interviewed in Vienna, December 5th 2004 by VERA GRIMMER, SAŠA BRADIĆ, ANDRIJA RUSAN

fotografija photo by SINA BANIAHMADThe English version is translated from German

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hans hollein

Da, to je tako. Stojim iza svojih ra nijih misli i kon cepata još i danas. Na određene koncepte mogu se nadovezati i nakon mno go godina ako se za odre­đe nu ideju nađe realizacija. Sigurno, čovjek se tokom de­set ljeća razvija, no kod mene ne postoji period koji bih rado zaboravio, s kojim više ne bih htio imati posla. Od mojih prvih crteža i projekata pa sve do danas moći ćete vidje­ti odre đeni kontinuitet, ali s moje stra ne i uvjerenje da oni i na dalje za mene važe. Neki od tih koncepata bili su i osnova mog razmišljanja. Iako se to raz miš ljanje diferenciralo, pa i posta jalo složenije, nikad nije došlo do potpunog prijelaza u neku drugu sferu.

oris

Jedna crvena nit prolazi vašim radovima – rane, povrede glat­kih ploha – od objekata na Ve ne cijanskom bijenalu 1972. (“Sva kodnevne situacije”) do dragu ljarnice Schullin sa zlat­nom “ranom” na poliranoj gra­nit noj plohi.

hans hollein

Ne bih to tako formulirao, to je gotovo preslikovito vi đeno. U mom radu nema jasnih grani­ca, postoje prijelazi između arhi tek ture i skulpture, kao i obr nu to. Između arhitek­ture, dizaj na, produkt­dizajna, urban­di zaj na ne povlačim jasne gra nič ne linije, već su to najčešće tekući prijelazi. No, postoji i či tav niz radova, primarno umjet ničkog karak­tera, koji su pot pu no slobodni od bilo kakve svr hovitosti. In­terpretacija od re đenih motiva na mojim objek tima trebala bi se temeljiti na kompleksnijoj bazi. Ona kolica s keramičkim pločicama (s Bijenala 72.), na koja se polaže mrtvace

hans hollein

Yes, it is exactly like that. I stand behind my earlier thoughts and concepts even today. I can tie into specific con­cepts even after many years, if a realization can be found for that specific idea. Certainly, a person develops throughout the decades, but with me there is no time period that I would rather forget or with which I would no longer like to be associated. From my earliest drawings and projects and up to today, you can see a certain continuity, but from my end, also the conviction that they continue to be valid for me. Some of these concepts were the basis of my reflections. Even if those reflections were differentiated, and became more complex, this never came to a complete swit ching to some other sphere.

oris

A recurring theme passes through all your works – wounds or disfigurements of smooth surfaces – from the objects at the Venice Bien­nale 1972 (’Eve ryday situa­tions’) to the Schullin Jewellery Shop with its gold ’wound’ on the polished granite surface.

hans hollein

I wouldn’t formulate it quite like that, that would be seeing it almost too figuratively. In my work there are no clear boundaries, there are tran­sitions between architecture and sculpture, and vice versa. I draw no clear lines between architecture, design, product design and urban design; rath­er, these are most often fluid transitions. However, there is an entire series of works, pri­marily of an artistic character, that are completely free of any type of purpose. An interpreta­

Venecijanski bijenale 1972. ’Svakodnevne situacije’ / Vennice Biennale 1972. ’Everyday situation’

zlatarnica Schullin, Beč, 1972.­74. / Schulin Jewellery Shop, Vienna

trgovina svije}a Retti, Beč, 1964.­65. / Retti candle shop, Vienna

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prije seciranja, imaju u sebi krv, što je povezano s promišljanjima i doživljajima koje sam imao. Za mene je, na primjer, doživljaj Meksika i krvi rezul­tirao vrlo bitnom spoznajom, koja je prenesena na moje pojmovanje umjetnosti, ali i na moj principijel­ni pojam života, kao i na arhitektonski rad. No kod Schullina ne bih rekao “rana”, već je to za mene prije erozija. U tom je slučaju svjesno postavljena određena dijalektika. Pozadina je zapravo bila veo­ma pragmatična. Taj sam granit htio razlomiti tako da erodira, što je vrlo skupa stvar, pa sam morao imati valjan razlog da to proračunski opravdam. Lamele tu služe dovođenju svježeg zraka, a cijevi odvođenju zraka, odzračivanju klima uređaja. To jest autonomni objekt koji, međutim, u pozadini ima funkciju.

oris

Zanimljiv je u vašem radu taj skok u mjerilu – od pred­meta svakodnevnice do kompleksnog pros tornog sklopa nebodera uvijek pritom zadržavate kon trolu nad prostorom. Kako do toga dolazi, stoji li iza toga određena metoda.

hans hollein

Prostor je osobito bitan element u arhitekturi, ali i u ljudskom životu. O tome sam napisao master­tezu “Space in space, in space” (University of California, Berkeley, 1960.). Radi se o fenomenu prostora uopće, pri čemu akustički prostor mogu definirati tonom. Mislim da ima drugih elemenata arhitekture i života grada koji također imaju veliku važnost, no u tome slučaju bio je bitan odnos prema spoznaji i interpretaciji prostora. Dosta je dugo potrajalo

dok sam uopće išta mogao realizirati. Osam godina nakon diplome dobio sam priliku realizirati jedan mali dućan od 14m² – prodavaonicu svijeća Retti, koja još uvijek radi. Istodobno sam htio načiniti jedan funkcionalni objekt koji će služiti funkciji prodaje i privlačenju kupaca – te zadovoljiti os­novne zahtjeve investitora, ali i mnogo više od toga. Kad je Bakema prvi put vidio Retti, nazvao ga je “arhitektonskim manifestom”. On je to i bio u smislu stava prema ma terijalu, prostoru, virtual­noj i nevirtualnoj ar hi tek turi. Fizički prostor tu je dvoma nasuprotno postavljenim zrcalima virtualno proširen u bes ko načnost. Tu je i vrlo jak odnos prema svjetlu, u ovome slučaju – svijeći, koja je ambivalentan element povezan sa svečanostima, slavljima, ali i religioznim ceremonijama.

oris

Možda bismo mogli govoriti o temi ikona. U svojim ste se ranim radovima bavili njima i promjenama njihova značenja – nosač aviona kao slika grada. Hladnjak Rolls­Royca u skylinu Manhattna. Vidite li u tome vezu sa sadašnjicom ili u svojim konceptima dovodite u pitanje određene sfere moći.

hans hollein

Ja sam već vrlo rano raznim formama rekao i formu li rao da je arhitektura s jedne strane sred­stvo za održavanje tjelesne topline, dok je s druge strane ritualna, kultna pojava. Po mom mišljenju se arhi tektura svih vremena i civilizacija kreće između ta dva pola. Prva gomila kamenja koju je netko podigao imala je kultnu svrhu. Stanovalo se u spilji ili jami načinjenoj za održavanje tjelesne

tion of certain motifs in my objects should be based on a more complex basis. That cart with ceramic tiles (from the ’72 Biennale), onto which cadavers are placed before dissection, has blood in it, which is tied in with reflections and experiences that I had. For me, for example, the experience of Mexico and blood resulted in a very essential conception that was transferred not only to my understanding of art, but also to my principled notion of life, as well as to my architectural work. However, with Schullin, I would not say ’wound’; for me it is more an erosion. A specific dialectic was consciously set up in that case. The background is, in fact, very pragmatic. I wanted to break up that granite so that it would erode, which in itself is a very expensive thing, and I had to have a valid reason so that I could justify it through the budget. The lamellas here serve to bring in fresh air, and the pipes to take away air, flushing out the air conditioning units. It is an autonomous object, which has a function in the background.

oris

What is interesting in your work is that scale leap – from everyday objects to the complex spatial system of high­rise buildings: you always maintain control over the space. How does this come about, is there a specific method behind this?

hans hollein

Space is an especially important element in archi­tecture, but also in human life. I wrote my master thesis on this topic ’Space in space in space’ (Uni­versity of California, Berkeley, 1960). It is about the phenomenon of space in general, whereby I can

define acoustic space by tone. I think that there are other elements of architecture and the life of a city, which also have great importance, but in that case what was important was the rela­tion between understanding and interpretation of space. It took a long time for me to actually realize anything. Eight years after my diploma I was given the opportunity to realize a small store of 14 square metres – the Retti Candle Shop, which is still open to this day. What I wanted to do was simultaneously to create a functional object, which would serve the function of selling and of attracting customers – and to satisfy the basic requests by the clients, but also much more than that. When Bakema saw Retti for the first time, he called it an ’architectural manifesto’. And it was in the sense of its stance towards materials, space, virtual and non­virtual architecture. The physical space here was virtually expanded into infinity with the placement of two mirrors opposite each other. Here there is also a very strong relation towards light, in this case – a candle, which is an ambiva­lent element, linked with festivities, celebrations, but also religious ceremonies.

oris

Perhaps we could talk about the theme of icons. In your earlier works you were concerned with them and the changes of their meanings – an aircraft carrier as an image of a city. A Rolls­Royce radiator in the Manhattan skyline. Do you see a link with the present in these, or do you in your concepts put in question specific spheres of power?

Rollce­Roys Grill, Wall Street, NY, 1966.

Superstructure over Manhattan, 1963.

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topline. Kolac za bijen u tlo imao je primarno, a to se nastavljalo sve do današnjeg najvišeg nebod­era, visokog 508 m u Taipehu, kultni, sakralni, ikonografski aspekt i nije bio samo izraz moći. I to sam to prikazao. Ne znam da li poznajete moje crteže “Chicago Skyscrapers” iz 1958., u obliku penisa ili šake, koji te stvari prilično precizno po­kazuju. To su stvari koje omogućuje arhitektura. Za mene je to vidljivo kroz stoljeća, sve do danas; dakako, drugim sredstvima, drugim redovima veličina, no to su iskonska svojstva arhitekture.

oris

Poznat je vaš koncept: Aufbauen und Aushöhlen (Graditi u vis i izdubiti). Između tih polova kreću se i vaši radovi.

hans hollein

To jest točno, a opet i nije posve točno. To je i tema moje izložbe u galeriji AEDES u Berlinu 2003. go­dine. Iz tih dviju mogućnosti prostora i oblikovanja, pa i građenja, proizlaze veoma različite situacije. Građenje iznad zemlje je slaganje slojeva jednih preko drugih. Tektonsko je, podložno gravitaciji. Građenje ispod zemlje u svojoj je biti posve dru­gačije. Prodirem u dubinu i mogu se – usporedio bih to s ribom što pliva u vodi – rastezati u svim pravcima; sila teže se u biti dokida. Naravno, kod podzemnih gradnji dolazi do oblikovanja koje nije à priori pravocrtno, već je prije organsko. Treba samo pogledati arheološko nalazište Petra – izađete iz klisure i pred vama se pojavi fasada palače u ne­kom grčko­rimskom stilu – tu su stupovi, arhitravi, itd. To je imitacija građene arhitekture. Radi se o jednom monolitu, pa stupovi uopće ne bi bili po­treb ni. Postoje stare fotografije na kojima jedan od stu pova visi. Taj sam motiv upotrijebio kod svoga priloga na Bijenalu 1980., kod “Strade Novissime”.

oris

Možda bismo se mogli vratiti vašim počecima, vašem prvom nastupu na arhitektonskoj sceni Beča. U vre­menu rigidnog modernizma dolazite s mani festom u kom ima i ovakvih iskaza: “Arhitektura je bez svrhe”, “Arhitektura je kultna, čulna, simbolička, znakovita”. Mora da je to tada djelovalo poput udara groma.

hans hollein

Da, zaista je tako djelovalo.

oris

To se odnosi i na predavanje koje ste održali u bečkoj Galeriji St. Stefan 1962. godine i na vašu izložbu u toj istoj galeriji 1963. godine. Tada je to komentirao

Friedrich Achleitner u bečkom Die Presse: ...s jedne strane, to je “...reakcija na sterilni mo­dernizam, prodor prema fan ta s­tičnom, di vovski nesvrho vi tom”, ali s dru ge strane, “vidjet će se da li su ti radovi bili pri prema ili su pak bijeg”. Danas je jas­no da su bili priprema. Kakav je bio put od te pripreme do realiza cije?

hans hollein

Ako želite kratku povijest, evo: vrlo sam se rano počeo baviti tim stvarima, već zadnjih godi­na studija (premda je studij trajao vrlo kratko – za tri godi­ne smo bili gotovi). Bila je to reakcija na jednu situaciju – i to drugačijim razmišljanjima o arhitekturi. Tada je u Beču, u Austriji, ali ne samo tamo, vri­jeme bilo u osnovi reakcio nar­no, ne samo okrenuto unatrag, što ne bi uvijek moralo biti negativno. Vladala je atmos­fe ra neprijateljstva prema fanta ziji i umjetnosti. Tada smo imali vrlo malo razonode, morali smo gledati kako ćemo fizički pre živ jeti. Sjećam se da su tada pred Akademijom likovnih um jet nosti na Schil­lerplatzu bile parkirane dvije vespe i je dan auto dakako da nitko od nas studenata nije posjedovao ni vespu ni auto. Bilo je dosta vre mena da se intenzivno bavi mo projektima na Akademiji, ali sam imao dovoljno vremena da se bavim i zadaćama koje sam si sam postavljao. Posto ja le su tada unutar avangarde, mada taj pojam ne potpisujem uvijek, vrlo uske veze između različi­tih umjetnika – arhite ka ta, sli ka ra, literata. Bila je to mala, ali ne podijeljena grupa. Družili smo se, pri čemu je je­dan pjes nik mogao govoriti o arhi tek turi, i obrnuto, a da ne bude od bijen. Bila je to dobra forma za rad i razmišljanje. No

hans hollein

Already very early on with various forms I had said and formulated that architecture was a means for maintaining body­temperature on the one hand, while on the other it was a ritual, cult phenome­non. It is my belief that architecture in all times and civilizations moves between these two poles. The first pile of rocks that someone piled up had a cultic purpose. Early human beings lived in caves or hollows, fashioned to maintain body temperature. A stake driven into the ground primarily had – and has continued to have down to the present, in the tallest building in the world, a 508m skyscraper in Taipei – a cultic, sacral and iconographic aspect and was not just an expression of power. In fact, this is what I also presented, I don’t know if you are familiar with my ‘Chicago Skyscraper’ drawings from 1958, in the form of a penis or fist, which show these things pretty precisely, but these are things that architecture enables. For me this has been visible throughout the centuries, up to today, certainly with other means, other orders of magnitude, but these are the primordial traits of architecture.

oris

Your concept of ’Digging – Piling up’ šAufbauen und Aushöhlenć is well known. Your work moves between these two poles.

hans hollein

That is correct, but again, not entirely correct. That was the theme of my exhibition at the AEDES Gal­lery in Berlin in 2003. From these two possibilities of space and its shaping, and also of building, quite different situations arise. Building above ground is placing layers on top of each other. It is tectonic, susceptible to gravitation. Building underground in its essence becomes something quite different. I penetrate into the depth and I can – I would compare this with a fish swimming in water – and I can stretch out in all directions, gravity is in fact annulled. Of course, with underground building the shaping is not a priori rectilinear, but more organic. Just take a look at the Petra archaeologi­cal site – you come out from a gorge and a façade appears before you in some kind of Greek­Roman style – there are columns, architraves, etc. This is an imitation of built architecture. We are speak­ing here of a monolith, and the columns were not necessary. There are old photographs that show one of the columns as hanging. I used this motif in my contribution to the 1980 Biennale, in ’Strada Novissima’.

oris

Perhaps we can return to your beginnings, to your first ap­pearance on the architectural scene in Vienna. In a period of rigid modernism, you ap­peared with a manifesto that conta i ned statements such as: ’Architecture is without purpose.’ ’Architecture is cultic, sensu al, symbolic, meaningful.’ It must have caused quite a stir then.

hans hollein

Yes, it certainly did.

oris

This also refers to the lecture at the St Stefan Gallery in 1962 and to your exhibition in the same gallery in 1963. At the time, Friedrich Achleit­ner commented on this in Vienna’s ’Die Presse’ on one hand as: ’A reaction to sterile modernism, a foray towards the fantastic, the colossally purposeless’, while on the other hand: ’it has yet to be seen whether these works are a preparation or perhaps an escape…’ Today it is clear that these were a preparation. What was the path from that preparation to realization?

hans hollein

If you would like a short history – I began my involvement with this very early on, already in my last year of studies – even if the curriculum was quite short – in three years we were finished with our studies. This was a reaction to a specific situation – with different re­flections on architecture. Back then in Vienna, in Austria, and not just there, the time was essentially reactionary, not only looking back, which does not always need to be negative. An atmosphere of hostility towards fantasy and

Venecijanski Bijenale / Venice Biennale, 1980., ’Strada novissima’

Neboder za Chicago / Scyscraper for Chicago, 1958.

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po t rebno si je predočiti i tadaš nju situaciju u Beču (studirao sam od 1953.­56.). Nije bilo gotovo nika­kvih informacija izvana, a bilo je i vrlo malo pub­likacija. Tada je u menzi Akademije sjedio Joseph Hoffmann i nitko ga u Beču nije poznavao, a njegov godišnji posao svodio se na oblikovanje ulaznih vrata neke komunalne stambene zgrade. Tada ste jedan crtež Klimta ili Schilea mogli dobiti za 10 $, no ja tih 10 $ nažalost nisam imao. Gradonačelnik Beča tada nije znao tko je Otto Wagner. Moja je generacija tu prošlost opet iskopala – nisu to bili povjesničari umjetnosti ni profesori Univerziteta, koji bi za to bili nadležni. Bila je to mala grupa kojoj je, pri mjerice, pripadala i F. Achleitner, koja je pon­ovo otkrila ono što je bila naša pozitivna prošlost. Ja sam se uvijek aktivno zauzimao za neke stvari. Tada se zaista moglo mijenjati Hoffmannov stolac iz Sanatorija Purkersdorf za posve bezvrijednu stolicu. Otišao sam tada u Muzej primijenjene umjetnosti (Museum für angewandte Kunst) te ih

upozorio da se pobrinu za to. No odgovorili su mi da Hoffmann nije njihov interes, već da je važno kompletirati zbirku Meissen porculana. Bila je to zaista vrlo kon zervativna situ a cija, pa me je to navelo da na neko vrijeme otiđem u švedsku. švedska je tada vrlo zanimljivo razvijala stano­gradnju u smislu nastav ljanja moderne, što je za mene bio vrlo interesantno. No prije svega je bilo važno moje putovanje u Ame riku, jer sam kao prvo želio upoznati tu zemlju i te ljude, uopće njihovu civilizaciju. Zatim sam jasno htio vidjeti čitav niz arhitektonskih djela i upoznati same arhitekte. To mi je i uspjelo, bilo da se radilo o F. L. Wrightu ili Miesu; oba sam susreo. Razgledao sam njihove građevine, a dodatno sam još i studirao. Htio sam upoznati i jedan drugi životni osjećaj. Radio sam i neobične stvari – želio sam vidjeti što više gradova s imenom Vienna; Vienna­Virginia, Vienna­Illinois, itd. Ponovo sam otkrio Schindlera, foto gra firao njegove objekte. On je umro, a njegov arhiv je bio

art reigned. Back then we had very little entertain­ment; we had to look out for how we would physically survive. I remember that there were two Vespas and a car parked in front of the Academy of Fine Arts on Schillerplatz, and it was clear that none of us students owned either a Vespa or a car. There was enough time to work intensively on projects at the Academy, but I also had enough time to work on tasks that I assigned myself. At the time there existed within the avant­garde, even though I don’t always call it this, very close ties between various artists – architects, painters, men of letters. This was a small but undivided group. We kept company, which meant a poet could talk about architecture, and vice versa, and not be rejected. This was a good form for work and for reflection. But it is necessary to present the situation in Vienna during the time of my studies (1953­1956). There was almost no information from abroad, and there were very few publications. At the time Joseph Hoffmann sat

in the Academy’s cafeteria and no one in Vienna knew him, and his yearly work came down to his having designed the entrance door to some public residential buildings. Back then, you could buy a drawing by Klimt or Schiele for 10 $, but I unfor­tunately did not have those 10 $. The mayor of Vienna then did not even know who Otto Wagner was. It was my generation that dug up that history again – these were not art historians or professors from the University who were responsible for this. Rather, this was a small group to which F. Achleitner belonged, for example, that rediscovered what our positive history was. I was always actively involved in something. At the time, you could easily exchange a Hoffmann chair from the Purkersdorf Sanatorium for some worthless chair. I went to the Museum of Applied Arts (Museum für angewandte Kunst) back then and warned them of this situation. But the reply I received was that Hoffmann was not in their interest, and that it was more important to complete

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u lošem stanju. Materijal o Schindleru pokazao sam u Museum of Modern Art. Oni Schindlera nisu sma trali zanimljivim... Za mene je značajan bio i susret s velikom slobodom, prostranstvom – dva puta sam putovao iz New Yorka u Kaliforniju najbržim mogućim načinom kako bih doživio putovanje bez granica. Pritom se treba prisjetiti naše tadašnje političke situacije – granična kon­trola je bila već na Semmeringu, granici između ruske i britanske oku pa cijske zone. Na najra­zličitije načine se u Ame rici pokazivao drugačiji način mišljenja, dru ga čija slo boda. To sve me sigurno bitno oformilo. Studirao sam na ITT­ju i na Berkeleyju, gdje sam i završio s master degree. No važniji mi je bio intenzivan doživljaj. Upoznao sam Gregoryja Corsa i ostale iz beat ge ne racije na literarnim večerima u San Franciscu.No, dakle, 1962. sam na poziv monsignora Mauera održao to predavanje o svojim radovima u Galeriji St. Stefan. Pokazao sam svoje crteže, modele i teks tove, što je bilo vrlo kontroverzno primljeno. No zanimljivo je bilo to da je tamo

bio umjetnik Walter Pichler, kog dotad nisam poznavao. Prišao mi je, rekao da sve to smatra sjajnim, te izrazio želju da se nađemo. Tome je slijedila suradnja, ali ne u obliku tima. Uvijek sam bio protiv timova, a za individualnu odgovornost. Zajednički rad se odvijao tako da su nam djela bila odvojena, a verbalni iskazi zajednički i to na izložbi, koja je trajala samo tri dana, što je bilo najduže što nam je Galerija St. Stefan dala na raspolaganje. Na otvorenju je bila silna navala; ljudi su šakama lupali po modelima – vjerojatno su se osjetili ispro vo ciranima. Pa ni Achleitner se tada nije baš izjasnio is ključivo pozitivno.

oris

Kenneth Frampton vas je označio kao “pravog arhitekta” u smislu tradicije bečke Akademije – poznavanja zanata i istodobno precizne analize misaonog procesa. S druge strane uvijek se pon­ovo pokazuje vaša sklonost prema umjetničkom, artističkom. Sigurno se ti suprotni polovi reflektiraju u vašem radu.

hans hollein

Da, to je u biti točno. Inače s Kennom Framp­to nom sam prijatelj; on je svog sina nazvao po mo jem. Stav Kena Framptona vrlo je jasan – po njemu arhi tektura mora biti tektonična. Sigurno postoji tek to nična arhitektura, pa i visoko kva­litetna i moderna tektonična arhitektura, ali rekao bih da je istakom vijenca na Pallazzo Strozzi u Firenci zapo čelo osva janje prostora u horizontalnom smislu, osvajanje pro stora jednim drugim slojem. To je sadržano u mno gim mojim urbanističkim promišljanjima – dakle, radi se o istaci – cantile veru. Frampton ima stringentniji stav koji, među tim, također mogu pri hvatiti. Hvala Bogu, danas više ne vladaju dogme koje su vladale godinama, kao što je to i dogma funk­cionalizma. Postojao je samo jedan pravi smjer, a sve je drugo bilo krivo. Možda postoji više no je dan pravi smjer. Smatram da je doprinos Kennetha Framptona, osobito u Americi, važan i u smislu spo znaje vrijednosti ruskog kons­truktivizma, koji je u Americi dugo bio nepoznat. U vrijeme mog studija na Berkeleyju bavio sam se ne samo ruskim kon struktivizmom u arhi tek­turi već i u teatru. Tada u Americi o tome nitko nije ništa znao. Ono o čemu su znali bio je Adolf Loos – o njemu se predavalo na ko legiju povijest arhitekture. U to se vrijeme o Loosu u Beču na stu diju povijesti umjetnosti sigurno nije pre da­valo. Današnja generacija jedva može zamisliti kako je minimalan bio protok informacija u ono vri jeme. Neke knjige ili stari časopisi s nečim za­

the Meissen porcelain collection. It really was a con­servative situation back then, and this compelled me to go to Sweden for a time. Sweden then had a very interesting development in housing construc­tion, in the sense of continuing in the modernist style, which for me was a very interesting encounter. But more important was my travelling to America, because I wanted first of all to get to know the land and people, their civilization, and of course I wanted to see an entire series of architectural works and meet with the architects themselves. I succeeded in this, whether it was F. L. Wright or Mies, I met them both. I visited their buildings, and additionally I also studied. I wanted to get to know a completely different feeling of life. I also did some unusual things – I wanted to see as many cities as I could named Vienna: Vienna­Virginia, Vienna­Illinois and so on. I rediscovered Schindler, and photographed his buildings. He passed away, and his archive was in a desolate state. I showed the material on Schindler to the Museum of Modern Art and they found Schindler to be not interesting. For me what

was also significant was encountering this great freedom, this spaciousness, and I travelled twice from New York to California the fastest way possible in order to experience travelling without borders. You need to recall our political situation at the time; there was a border control even at Semmering the border between the Russian and the British occu­pation zone. A different way of thinking, a different type of freedom was present in America in the most variety of ways. All this certainly had its effect on me. I studied at the Illinois Institute of Technology (IIT) and at Berkeley, where I also completed my master thesis. But what was more important for me was the intense experience. I met Gregory Corso and others of the beat­generation at literary evenings in San Francisco. Thus in 1962, at the invitation of Monsignor Mauer I held a presentation on my works at the St Stefan Gallery. I showed my drawings, models and texts, which were all received quite controversially. But what was interesting was that the artist Walter Pichler, whom I did not know at the time, was there. He approached me and said that he found every­thing quite fantastic, and expressed his wish that we meet. This was followed by a period of cooperation, but not as a team. I have always been against teams, but rather for individual responsibility. Our mutual cooperation evolved in such a way that our works were separate but that the verbal expressions were shared, and this was at the exhibition that only last­ed three days, the longest amount of time that the St Stefan Gallery made available to us. At the opening there was a great rush, and people pounded the models with their fists, probably feeling provoked. Even Achleitner then did not positively speak out.

oris

Kenneth Frampton labelled you as the ’one true architect’ in the sense of the tradition of Vienna’s Academy – knowing the trade and simultaneously having precise analytical thought processes. On the other hand, your affinity towards the artistic is always in evidence. Certainly these opposite poles must reflect in your work.

hans hollein

Yes, this is in fact true. I am friends with Kenneth Frampton, he named his son after mine. Ken Framp ton’s stance is very clear – according to him, architecture must be tectonic. Tectonic architecture must certainly exist, even high­quality and modern tectonic architecture, but I would say that the con­quest of space in a horizontal sense started with the protruding cornice of the Strozzi Palace in Florence. This is contained in many of my urban reflections

Albertina, novi ulaz / new entrance, Beč / Vienna, 2001.­2003.

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nim lji vim bili su senzacija koju smo jedan dru gome po ka zivali za kavanskim stolom. Današnja infor­ma cij ska mreža ima jasno jak utjecaj na pro cjenu situa cije i na projekte.

oris

U vezi s vladanjem dogmi mogli bismo ukazati i na zahtjeve za određenom neutralnošću arhitekture kakvu su proklamirali majstori moderne.

hans hollein

Ja sam apsolutno protiv toga da arhitektura bude neutralna.

oris

Pa to i jest vaš doprinos u razdoblju kasne moderne.

hans hollein

To je sigurno točno, no to treba prepustiti prosudbi povjesničara arhitekture i povjesničara umjetnosti.

oris

Govorimo li o temi muzeja, vaš muzej u Mönchen­gladbachu je mnogo kompleksnija i skulpturalnija

građevina nego što bi to bila jedna tektonična zgra­da. Za mene tu postoje različite razine, a o tome je i Kenneth Frampton govorio – to nije tek galerijski prostor, to je grad u minijaturi, a isto dobno i kra­jolik. Može se ići kroz građevinu, preko nje, u nju ući odozgo. To je veoma važan aspekt, ujedno i početak jednog drugačijeg promišljanja prostornog koncepta.

hans hollein

To nema direktne veze s muzejom, to je samo de mon­strirano na osnovu jednog mog muzeja. Uvijek sam mislio da treba učiti iz povijesti, učiti od raz ličitih kultura i civilizacija, ali ne kopirati ili imi ti rati, već spoznati što je netko drugi napravio. U mom slučaju – ja sam se bavio pueblosima sjever no američkih Indijanaca. To su objekti, koji se ne za mjetno inte­griraju u krajolik, pri čemu se ne zna gdje prestaje hridina, a gdje počinje građevina. Ta to pografska

– this is about the cantilever. Frampton has a more stringent view which however I can also accept. Thank heavens that dogmas no longer reign today, dogmas that reigned for years, just as the dogma of functionalism did. Only one direction existed, and everything else was wrong. Perhaps more than one right direction exists. I consider Kenneth Frampton’s contribution, especially important in America, in the sense of his being aware of the values of Russian Constructivism, which in America was long unknown. During my studies at Berkeley, I was involved not only in Russian Constructivism in architecture, but also in theatre. At the time no one in America knew anything about this. What they did know was Adolf Loos – they showed his work in lectures of archi­tectural history. Back then, there were certainly no lectures about him in Vienna in the Art History Faculty. Today’s generation can hardly imagine the minimal flow of information that existed during that time. Some books, or older magazines with some­thing interesting were quite the sensation which we passed among ourselves at café tables. Today’s information network has a clearly strong influence on the assessment of situations and projects.

oris

In relation to the reign of dogmas, we can also point to the demands for a certain neutrality of architecture, as proclaimed by the modernist masters.

hans hollein

I am completely against architecture being neutral.

oris

But that was your contribution in the period of late modernism.

hans hollein

That is certainly true, but that should perhaps be left to the judgment of architectural historians and art historians.

Gradski muzej / Municipal museum, Mönchengladbach, Njemačka / Germany, 1972.­82.

Gate 2­Vectigal, poslovni toranj / office tower, Beč / Vienna, 2001.

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arhitektura kod mene ispočet­ka nije bila rek tan gu lar na. što se tiče integracije, po stoje ur­bana polja gdje ona na prosto nije moguća. A što se pak tiče integracije u krajolik, Vul cania je jedan kasni primjer. Ja sno sam pokazao tu integraciju prostornog, kao i kontinuitet vanj skog i unutarnjeg prosto­ra. U mojoj arhitekturi nema razlike između vanjskog i unutarnjeg. Na primjer, zgrada Centrum Banke u Vaduzu dje­luje kao kamen koji je pao s planine; tu postoji kon tinuitet od van prema unutra, sve do komada pokućstva u pred vorju koje je također kameno.

oris

Vratimo li se temi muzeja, mogli bismo reći da ste vi klasičnu funkciju, aksijalnost, pro hod­nost muzeja od naprijed prema nazad, doveli u pitanje. Moglo bi se to povezati i s pojmom ikona u vašim radovima o kojima smo govorili.

hans hollein

Katkada aksijalni red može biti ispravan i važan, te donosi po sve određen značaj i sa­držaj. No katkada je simetrija jedno stavno sredstvo organi­zacije, ali nema drugog smis­la. što se tiče ikona, kruna grada (Stadt krone) može biti ikona. Disku sija o tome kako bi se točnije definirala ikona i kako bi se toč nije definiralo ritualno bila bi jako dugačka. Ja sam to jed nom i pokazao uz pomoć jedne skice (crta) – eto tako sjedi faraon na prijestolju, tako pre kri ženih ruku – a tu sjedi, ne ka ko opušteno prekriženih no gu na tom prijestolju – jed no je ritualni, a drugo jedan slo­bodniji oblik. Mada se u ovom slučaju radi o istom tijelu i is tom objektu, jedna situacija je tu jedno stav nim obratom

oris

If we were to speak on the theme of museums, your mu­seum in Mönchengladbach is a much more complex and sculp tured structure than a tec tonic building would be. For me there are various levels that exist here, and Kenneth Framp ton spoke about this – it is not a gal­lery space so much as it is a miniature city and landscape simultaneously. One can pass through the building, over it, enter it from above. This is an extremely important aspect, and also the beginning of a different type of deliberation of spatial concept.

hans hollein

That has no direct link to the museum, in that case it was demonstrated on the exam­ple of one of my museums. I have always believed that one should learn from history, learn from various cultures and civilizations, but not copy or imitate, rather come to un­derstand what someone else has created. In my case, I was preoccupied with the Pueblos of the North American Indians. These are objects that are im­perceptibly integrated into the landscape, so that one can’t tell where the cliff ends and where the structure begins. This topographical architecture with me was not rectangular at the beginning. As far as integration goes, there are urban fields where this is not possible, as for integration into the landscape, Vulcania is one later example. Here I clearly showed integration of the spatial as well as the continuity of outer and inner space. In my architecture there is no differentiation between the external and internal. For example, the Centrum Bank

Centrum Bank, Vaduz, Liechtenstein, 1997.­2003.

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iz mi jenjena. Mislim da je u arhi tekturi potrebna određena stro gost iskaza, no postoji i nešto što u fluidnoj formi rezultira me ta fo ričkim izrazom. Za me ne postoji i jedna statična i jedna svjesno din­amična arhi tektura. Primjer dina mične arhi tekture je moj objekt Inter Banke u Li mi, u Peruu, smješ ten na kri žanju dviju autocesta – dnevno tuda prođe 500.000 auto mo bila. Parcela je ostatak jednog križanja u obliku lista dje teline, dakle parcela koja nema pra vocrtni oblik. Bio je to natječaj na kome sam pobi jedio. To je objekt koji sam svje sno gradio su vremenom fasadom od tita na, ali s druge strane ima puno veze s lo kal nom kul turnom situacijom. Sagradio sam taj golemi zid iza kojeg je smješte­no 5 katova garaža i tehnič kih prostora. Dao sam pozvati gotovo čitavo jedno selo s Anda s njegovim obrtnicima. Oni su kompli ci rane, ogromne, više­kutne komade kamena tako među sob no po ve zali da se ni poslovični nož ne bi mogao utak nuti u fuge. To su gradili mjesecima. Tu se ujedi nila Glory of the past – slavna prošlost arhitekture Inka s dinamikom 21. stoljeća. To nije narativno, rekao bih, to se i ne mora znati. Ta zgrada mora opstati i bez tog objašnjenja.

building in Vaduz (Liecht enstein) functions like a rock, like one that has fallen from a cliff and here exists the continuity from the external towards the internal, up to the pieces of furniture in the lobby, which are also made of stone.

oris

If we return to the theme of Museums, we could say that you have called the classic function, the axiality, the possibility of going through the museum from the front towards the back in ques­tion. This could be linked to the notion of icons in your work.

hans hollein

Sometimes the axial order can be right and import­ant, and it brings a completely specific significance and content. Sometimes symmetry is simply a means for organization, but it has no other meaning. As far as icons go, a city’s crown (Stadtkrone) can be an icon. That would be a long discussion on how correctly to define an icon, and how it would ritually be defined correctly. I once showed this with the help of a drawing šhe makes a sketchć – here a pharaon

Interbank, Lima, Peru, 1996.­2000.

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oris

Mogli bismo se opet nadovezati na temu Aufbauen und aushöhlen – izdubljivanje u suprotnosti s tek to­ničkim građenjem uvis. Tektonički sistem odgovarao bi neboderu, bilo da se radi o Limi ili Monte – Laa u Beču. To znači usuditi se ići preko granica, izaći iz van okvira. Mislim da obje mogućnosti definiraju prazninu; s jedne strane npr. djelomično ukopana, nevidljiva Vulcania definirana je prazninom, a s druge strane je neboder kao osvajanje praznine.

hans hollein

Neboder je kategorija za sebe. Postoji neboder kao principijelna tipologija, zanimljiva tipologija, koja potječe iz davnih vremena – eto baš, kao što sam već prije rekao, prvi uspravljeni kolac, Svjetionik u Aleksandriji, Kula babilonska, tornjevi katedrala. Ta vertikalna građevina uvijek je imala vrlo specifičan, osnovni arhitektonski iskaz, a prema tehnološkom razdoblju i simboličkom sadržaju, koji se može oči­tati, on je uvijek i vrlo različit. No to je jedno stavno tip koji me je uvijek zanimao. Interesantno je primjerice pitanje kako da neboder završi. Re cimo, Seagram Building je prizma koja bi se bilo gdje mogla odrezati. U tom pogledu je među ame ričkim neboderima važan Chrysler Building, s možda deko­

rativnim akcentom. Ali je pitanje kakav može biti vrh nebodera. Generali Media Tower kompleksno je oblikovan, od raznolikih formalnih blokova koji su međutim vrlo usko povezani s integracijom u gradsku okolinu. U okolišu kuća iz 19. stoljeća trebao je nastati neboder, pa sam tu blokovsku izgradnju u osnovi jednim dijelom nastavio. U ne­posrednoj blizini je i tzv. Bundesländergebände iz prve generacije visokih zgrada u Beču. Na to sam

sits on a throne, in a stern pose with crossed arms, like that – and here sits, somehow, leaning relaxed on the throne with legs crossed – the one is ritual, and the other is a more liberal form. Even though we have in this case the same body and the same object, one situation is changed here with a simple twist. I think that in architecture there is a need for an indisputable strictness of expression, but there is also something which in a more fluid form results in metaphoric expression. For me there exists an architecture that is static and one that is consciously dynamic. An example of dynamic architecture is my Interbank building in Lima, Peru, located at the intersection of two highways; more than 500 000 cars pass there daily. The site is a left­over of a traffic intersection in the shape of a clover leaf, that is, a parcel that doesn’t have a straight rectangular form. This was a competition which I had won. This is an object that I built consciously with a contempo­rary façade made of titanium, but which had a lot of ties with the local cultural situation. I built that huge wall behind which there are five levels of parking space and technical spaces. I invited almost an entire village from the Andes along with its craftsmen. They managed to link together

the complicated, enormous polygonal pieces of rock so that not even the proverbial knife could be wedged into the joints. They were building it for months. Here the ’Glory of the past’ – the glorious past of the Inca architecture – was united with the dynamics of the 21st century. I would say that this is not narrative; it does not even have to be known. The building needs to survive, even without that explanation.

neboderi / towers Monte Laa, Beč / Vienna, 2000.

Vulcania­Parc Europeén du Volcanisme, Saint­ ours­Les Roches, Auvergne, Francuska / France, 2002.

muzej / museum Mönchsberg, Salzburg, 1989.­ 2001.

Vulcania­Parc Europeén du Volcanisme, Saint­ ours­Les Roches, Auvergne, Francuska / France, 2002.

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reagirao metalnim boxom povučenim od građevne linije, tako da je nastao javni prostor. Prema gore skošeni stakleni volumen ukazuje na budućnost. Ovdje se nije radilo samo o pojedinačnom objektu, već o objektu integriranom u urbano. U mojim ranim razmišljanjima o gradu vide se lebdeće tvorevine iznad grada, pa je to slučaj i kod projek­ta Monte Laa, – u geometri zi rajućoj formi u ovom slučaju – jedna druga razina iznad grada, iznad gusto izgrađena grada. Beč je jedan od malobrojnih gra dova koji nemaju porast stanovništva – godine 1910. Beč je imao 2,1 mili ju na stanovnika, a da­nas ih ima 1,8 milijuna. Proši renje grada Beča je pitanje komfora. Suprotnost tome je npr. Lima – na studiju sam kod Hilbers hei mera slučajno imao za­datak u Limi – tad nije imala ni milijun stanovnika. Kad sam radio natječaj za Inter banku, bio je to već grad od 10 milijuna. Baš sam bio u Meksiku, gdje je pred sjednik države na jednom predavanju rekao da će za manje od godinu dana izgraditi 700.000 sta nova. Pojedini stan imat će 38 m², a stajat će 12.000 dolara, kao manji automobil. Tako će za go dinu dana smjestiti 700.000 obitelji. Radi se o jed nokatnim ili dvo kat nim kućama, pa time infra struk tura postaje skupa, a prometna situacija kom plicirana. Stoga je moj prijedlog: Preko takvog grada neka na od re đenim točkama lebdi takoreći jedan drugi grad.Postoji i drugo pitanje kojim se uvijek ponovo bavim (bilo je već riječi o Mönchen gladbachu – Beč je na žalost propustio priliku ne prihvativši moj projekt za Zentralsparasse u Floridsdorfu kao walk –on building) – to je prohodno oplošje jedne građevine. U Mönchengladbachu možete prolaziti svime osim tornjem za upravu i shed-krovovima izložbenih dvo ra na. To je i urbano pitanje. Na taj je način gra­đe vina i danju i noću uključena u urbani život. Još jed na druga stvar – ja sam se vrlo rano bavio me ta­lom kao građevnim i kao fasadnim materijalom (tr­govina Retti), pa tako i u Mönchengladbachu. Tamo su fasade izložbenih hala izvedene u titancinku, a to je jedan gradski muzej. S gradskim budžetom morali smo baratati vrlo štedljivo, no ipak su nam rekli da neće lim na fasadi; ne bismo li ipak upo tri je bili kamen pa makar bilo i nešto skuplje. Rekao sam im: “..ako još imate novaca, imao bih na mojoj listi još puno toga, pa ostavimo lim”. Nakon Mön chen­gladbacha, zanimljivo, većina muzeja ima fa sa de od lima. Pri go dom otvaranja Bilbaoa je Gehry izjavio da Bilbao ne bi bio moguć bez Mönchen gladbacha.

oris

Kad već govorimo o Mönchengladbachu, postavlja se i pitanje toka unutarnjih prostora. To nije klasična

oris

We could once again link into the theme of ’digging and piling up’ – digging in contrast to tectonic building up. The tectonic system would apply to high­rises, whether we are talking about Lima or Monte­Laa in Vienna. This means to dare to go beyond the boundaries, to go out­side the frame. I think that both possibilities – on one hand, they define a void – the partially buried, invisible Vulcania, with which the void is defined, and on the other, the high­rise as the conquering of the void.

hans hollein

The high­rise is a category unto itself. There is the high­rise as principled typology, an interesting typology that originates from past times – just as I mentioned before, the first erected stake, the Lighthouse of Alexandria, the Tower of Babel, the towers of a cathedral. This vertical structure always had a specific basic architectural expres­sion, and according to the technological period, a symbolic content that can be interpreted, it is always very different. But this simply is a type that has always interested me. It is interesting, for example, the question of how a high­rise ends. Let’s say, the Seagram Building is a prism which can be cut off at any given point. In that sense, the Chrysler Building is important among American skyscrapers, perhaps with a decorative element. But the question is what the top of a skyscraper or high­rise can be like. The Generali Media Tower is complexly shaped, from various formal blocks which are thereby very narrowly tied into the integration with the city surroundings. A high­rise building was to emerge in an environment of houses from the 19th century, and so I continued this block matrix in part. Close by is the so­called Bundes län der gebände from the first generation of tall buildings in Vienna. I reacted to this with a metal ’box’, pulled back from the building line, which in turn created a public space. The glass structure, which is slanted towards the top, points to the future. This was not just about an individ­ual building, but about object integrated into the urban fabric. In my earlier conceptions about the city, you can see floating structures above the city, and this is the case with the Monte Laa project – in a geometrised form in this case – one other level above the city, above the densely built city. Vienna is one of the few cities that have not had any growth in population – in 1910 Vienna had a population of 2.1 million, today it has 1.8 million. The expansion of Vienna is a question of comfort

and opposite to this is the city of Lima – during my studies with Hilbersheimer, I coincidentally had as a task Lima – back then it had a population of less than a million. When I was working on the competition for the Interbank, it was now a city of 10 million. I was recently in Mexico, where the president of the state during a presentation announced that in less than a year they would be building 700 000 flats. An individual flat would be 38m2, and would cost $12 000, the price of a small car. This refers to two or three­storey houses and the infrastructure becomes more expensive with this, and the traffic situation more compli­cated. My suggestion for this would be: to ’float’ another city, so to say, at specific points over such an existing city. There is also another question that I am always concerned with (there was already mention of the Mön chen gladbach museum – Vienna unfor­tunately lost the opportunity in not accepting my project for the Zen tralsparkasse in Floridsdorf as a walk­on building) – and that is the possibility of negotiating the whole envelope of a building. In the Mönchen glad bach museum you can pass through everything, except the administration tower and the shed roofs of the exhibition halls. This is an ur­ban question. In that way, the building is included in urban life both day and night. One more thing – I started using metal as a building material and as a façade material very early on (Retti shop) and so too in Mönchengladbach. There the façades of the exhibition halls are clad in titanium zinc and that is a city museum. We had to be very economical with the city budget, but they did say they did not want sheet metal on the façade, and wouldn’t we rather use stone, even if it is a bit more expensive. I told them ’…if you still have money, I would have much more on my list, so let’s leave the sheet met­al.’ After Mönchengladbach, interestingly enough, the majority of museums now have sheet metal fa ça des. During the opening of the Bilbao, Gehry said that the Bil bao would not have been possi ble without Mön chen gladbach.

oris

As we’re already talking about Mönchenglad­bach, this brings to mind the question of the flow of interior spaces. It’s not a clas sic enfilade, nor the modernist concept of plan libre. In fact, it is more a mixture of the se concepts.

hans hollein

Yes, it’s a matrix. I started out from the idea that specific spa ces are better for specific objects of

Zentralsparkasse, filijala Floridsdorf, Beč, 1966.­68. / Central Savings Bank of Vienna, Branch office Floridsdorf, 1966­68

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enfilada, ali ni koncept moderne – plan libre. Zapravo je došlo do mješavine tih koncepata.

hans hollein

To je matrica. Polazio sam od toga da su određeni prostori bolji za određene objekte moderne umjet­nos ti. Ono što nikako nisam htio, a to je danas samo po sebi razumljivo, je da se prolazi pravocrtno od sale 1 do sale 20. To apsolutno nisam htio, jer sam smatrao da ta linearna pove zanost nije uvijek dana, osobito ne u modernoj. Recimo Mon drian i Dali su u Parizu radili takoreći vrata uz vrata – pa što da se radi. Kod Venecijanaca i sličnih perioda još je moguć kronološki re do sli jed. No ako bih izložio kro no loški – 1930. Dali, 1931. Mon drian, 1932. još jednom Mon drian, 1933. Dali – sve je to bilo istodobno. Je­dnostavno sam izabrao ma tricu, a unutar te matrice po sto je različiti pu to vi. Primarna je ideja da se kroz muzej ide kao kroz kra jo lik.

oris

Važno je spomenuti da time nastaje labirint.

hans hollein

Da, Mönchengladbach ima neš to od labirinta. No pred vidjeli smo načine da se posjetilac ne izgubi.

modern art. What I tried to avoid, and this today is un der standable in itself, is passing in a straight line from halls 1 to 20. This is what I absolutely didn’t want, because I believed that this linear connection is not always a given, especially not in modernism. If we say that Mondrian and Dali in Paris wor ked door to door, so to speak – what could we do. With the Venetians and similar periods, there is still the possibility of a chronological order. But if we were to exhibit chronologically – 1930 Dali, 1931 Mondrian, 1932 Mondrian again, 1933 Dali – this would all be synchronous. I simply selected a matrix and various paths exist within that matrix. The primary idea was that one passes through the mu seum as through a landscape.

oris

It is important that a labyrinth then appears.

hans hollein

Yes. Mönchengladbach has something of a labyrinth. But we made provisions, so the visitor does not get lost. We did this in connection to my ’Media lines’, where I simply used ’Ariadne’s thread’. In order for us to be able to orient ourselves in the most varied of spatial situations, we need to have one element,

Učinili smo to u svezi sa mojim Media lines, gdje sam jednostavno upotrijebio Aria d ninu nit. Kako bis mo se mogli orijentirati u najrazličitijim pro s­tornim situacijama, moramo imati jedan element, baš te svjet losne­obojene linije, koje će nas, ako se izgubimo, uvijek opet odvesti ka jednoj točki.

oris

Time se stvaraju prostorne epi zode i mogućnosti kako različite eksponate pokazati na drugačiji način.

hans hollein

Da, to je tako, a bilo je i često ko pirano. Ako po gle­date tlocrt glavnih prostora Mönchen glad bacha, vidite možete svuda ući, uvijek se nađu stepenice ko jima ćete izaći. Svoj put od re đujete sami i on je bez za pre ka. Nema nikakvih vrata koja bi bila u su­kobu sa sli ka ma. Mogu brzo proći ili se zau stav ljati – dakle postoje razli čite brzine.

oris

Podsjetila bih na još jedan citat Kennetha Framptona o tea tral nom momentu u vašem radu: “Hollein se naj­bolje osjeća u teatralnom kontekstu, on se slobodno igra sa čulnim i prolaznim simbolima”. Pri tom se mo`e pomisliti na jednu vašu sliku s izlo`be “Traum und Wirklichkeit” – na portret mlade carice Elisabete obavijene oblakom najfinijeg tila kon frontiran sa okrvavljenom uniformom Franza Fer di nanda. Iz tih suprotnosti nastaju sinteze s kono tacijama emocija i saznanja.

hans hollein

Ali u tome nema ništa teatralno!

oris

Ipak se radi o inscenaciji.

hans hollein

Svaki urbanizam je inscenacija, Ringstrasse je ins ce nacija, govornica za Lenjina od Lissitzkog je ins cenacija. No slika o kojoj govorite dio je cjelo­kupnog arhitektonskog koncepta, koji u jasnoj formi po kazuje određene sklopove. Prednost je te stvari, u tome slučaju ikonografske stvari, da sam tamo jednostavno stavio Sissi s njenim privatnim por tre tom, s njenim zvijezdama u kosi, a nasuprot tome uni formu, te sam tako prikazao problematiku 1. svjetskog rata. Ovdje je u određenoj formi čitava stvar prikazana jednim udarcem. Sigurno, treba ići još dublje, ali to su bile realnosti, nije to bila tea tarska krv. Kad smo uniformu stavljali u vitrinu, još se iz nje trusila zgrušana krv. Mislim da je to u tom slučaju i velika razlika između teatarske inscenacije i jedne takve inscenacije – bilo je to

in this case the light­coloured line which will always lead us towards one point if we should get lost.

oris

This creates spatial episodes, possibilities of how to show various exponents in a different way.

hans hollein

Yes, just like that, and it was copied often. If you look at the layout of the main spaces of the Mön­chen gladbach, you can go everywhere, there are always stairs to be found, with which you can exit, you determine your own path, and it is without obstacles. There are no doors to be in conflict with the paintings. I can pass through quickly or stop – therefore, there are various speeds.

oris

I would like to recall another statement by Kenneth Frampton about the theatrical moment in your work: ’Hollein has been most at ease in theatrical or commodity context, he plays freely with the sensuous and transient symbols.’ Here one thinks of one of your paintings from the exhibition ’Traum und Wirklichkeit’ šDream and Realityć – a portrait of the young Empress Elisabeth wrapped in a cloud of the finest tulle, confronted by the bloody uniform of Franz Ferdinand. A synthesis with connotations of emotions and perception emerges from these two opposing elements.

hans hollein

But there is nothing theatrical in that!

oris

Still, it is about staging.

hans hollein

Every urbanism is staging, Ringstrasse is staging, Lissitzky’s Lenin Tribune is staging. But the picture you mention is part of the entire architectural concept, which in a clear way shows certain com­plexes. The advantage of that object, in that case, the iconographic object, is that I simply placed Sissi with her private portrait there, with her stars in her hair and opposite to that, the uniform, and in this way I showed the problem area of the First World War. Here in a certain form, with one blow, the entire scene is shown. Certainly, one needs to go more in depth, but those were realities, it was not stage blood. When we placed the uniform in the display case, coagulated blood was still flaking off it. I think that in that case it is a great difference between theatre staging and such a staging – it was more of a dialectical confrontation. Everyone

Izlo‘ba ’Traum und Wirklichkeit’/ exhibition ’Dream and Reality’, Künstlerhaus, Beč / Vienna, 1984.­85.

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ipak više jedno dijalektičko sučeljavanje. Svatko si na temelju toga može odmah predstaviti pro­blematiku; ne mora mnogo znati, ali se može in for mirati uz pomoć drugih eksponata i fusnota. Sličan tome je objekt kog sam nedavno napravio za Genovu. Genova je trenutno europska prijestol­nica kulture, pa su pozvali umjet nike i arhitekte da u gradu izlože objekte. Moj je objekt ovakav: “Zlatno tele”, vagon za prijevoz nafte, pravi vagon 15 m dugačka koju smo pozlatili, i svakome je, od gra do načelnika naniže, bilo jasno što se time htjelo reći.

oris

Vi ste dugo bili profesor i imali kontakt sa studenti­ma i budućim arhitektima. Kako danas gledate na nastavničku djelatnost?

hans hollein

Danas je budućnost arhitekta vrlo nesigurna i teška. Šesto sam vidio da mladi ljudi imaju krive predodžbe o tome zvanju. Postoji grupa onih koji se vide u jurećem Porscheu, zatim oni koji misle da je do voljno napraviti neki plan, a sve drugo će već obaviti građevinsko poduzeće. Sigurno neću svakome savje tovati da studira arhitekturu. No, što se tiče same nastave – imao sam najprije priliku podučavati u SAD­u, pa i kasnije češće kao gost profesor, zatim na Akademiji u Düsseldorfu, te konačno na Hoch schule für angewandte Kunst u Beču. Za mene je to bila uvijek vrlo dobra, dapače luksuzna situacija. Bio sam suočen s manjim brojem studenata, kod nas na Hochschule su majstorske klase brojile najviše 40 studenata. Moglo se inten zivno baviti potrebama pojedinaca i gledati kako se netko razvija dalje. Nikad nisam podučavao prin cipijelne dogme. Poticao sam kreativnost poje dinca. Važno je da se studenti mogu izraziti, ne samo po moću crteža, render­inga i sl. već i verbalno, da mogu sudjelovati u diskusiji. Nastavom su uvijek bila obu hvaćena različita područja, bilo je prijelaza u obli kovanje interijera, u urbanizam. Vladala je kon ceptualna sloboda. Sam nastavni program bio je dosta slo­bodno oblikovan, što je na manjoj školi moguće. Najvažnije korekture imali smo od 7 nave čer do ponoći. Najangažiraniji studenti ostajali su naj­dulje i tada je tek postalo zanimljivo. Radi se o tome da se na osnovu konkretnih projekata dobije principijelni stav prema arhitekturi.Uvijek mi je bilo važno i posredovanje takvih ele menata arhitekture koji se ne daju kvantifici­rati – dakle ugođaj, atmosfera, ono što se ne da izraziti u kvadratnim metrima ili luksovima. Šest

on the basis of that can immediately understand the problem, without having to know very much, being able to get information with the help of other exhibits and footnotes. Similar to this is the object I recently made for Genoa. Genoa is currently the European City of Culture (for 2004) and they invited artists and architects to display public sculptures in the city, and my sculpture was the following: a ’golden calf’ – a petrol waggon, a real waggon 15m long, which we gilded and it was clear to everyone, from the mayor onwards, what was meant by this.

oris

You spent a long time as a professor and had contact with students and future architects. How do you view the teaching profession these days?

hans hollein

Today the future for an architect is very insecure and difficult. I have often noticed that young people have misled conceptions about this profession. There is a group that sees themselves in a speeding Porsche, and then those that think it is enough to make some kind of architectural plan and that everything else will be taken care of by the construction contrac­tor. I certainly wouldn’t advise everyone to study architecture. But as far as teaching goes – I first had the opportunity to tutor in the USA and later more frequently as a guest professor, followed by the Academy in Düsseldorf, and finally at the Hoch­schule für Angewandte Kunst in Vienna. For me this was always a very good, even luxury situation. I was confronted with a smaller number of students, at the Hochschule in the Master’s classes the number of students was never more than 40. You could work intensively on an individual’s needs and observe how someone continued to develop. I never taught dogma. I encouraged an individual’s creativity. It is important that students can express themselves, not only with the help of drawings, renderings and similar, but also verbally, that they can participate in a discussion. The classes always encompassed various fields, there were crossings over to interior design, to urban planning. Conceptual freedom reigned. The curriculum itself was fairly freely put together, which is possible in a smaller school. We had the most important encounters from 7 in the evening to midnight. The most committed students stayed the longest and it was then that it became interesting. It is about that, that on the basis of concrete projects one gains a principled standpoint towards architecture. For me it was always important for the intervention of such elements of architecture, which cannot

’Zlatno tele’ / ’The Golden Calf’ ­ instalacija / installation, ’Arti &Architettura’, Genova, 2004.

be quantified – mood, atmosphere, that which cannot be expressed in square meters or in luxes. A recurrent assignment was, for example, a bar – I had once asked Mies what was the most difficult assignment in architecture and he replied ’a bar and a church’. The functional program of a bar or church is quite simple, but what will become of it is where the architect’s creativity comes into play. This is what I wished to develop with the students. It was important for me to be able to develop the integral expression of an individual.

zadatak bio je npr. bar – jednom sam pitao Miesa što je najteža zadaća u arhitekturi, a on je rekao da su to bar i crkva. Funkcionalni program jednog bara ili crkve posve je jednostavan, ali što će od toga nastati, u tome se onda vidi kreativnost arhitekta. To je ono što sam kod studenata htio razviti. Važ­no mi je bilo razviti mogućnosti cjelovitog izraza svakog pojedinca.