PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES · SUITE 1500 MCLEAN, VA 22102. PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES . ... UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

UNCLASSIFIED, COMMITTEE SENSITIVE


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EXECUTIVE SESSION

PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE,

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

WASHINGTON, D.C.

INTERVIEW OF: WALID PHARES

Friday, December 8, 2017

Washington, D.C.

The interview in the above matter was held in Room HVC-304, the Capitol,

commencing at 11:15 a.m.

Present: Representatives Schiff and Heck.

PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES



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Appearances:

For the PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE:

For WALID PHARES:

MICHAEL P. SOCARRAS

SCHMITZ SOCARRAS LLP

8200 GREENSBORO DRIVE

SUITE 1500

MCLEAN, VA 22102




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Good morning. This is an unclassified transcribed interview

of Walid Phares.

Thank you for speaking with us today.

For the record, I am a majority staff member of the House

Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence.

Before we begin, I have a security reminder. I just want to make sure that

you and your counsel have left your electronics outside.

MR. SOCARRAS: Correct.

I also want to state a few things for the record.

The questioning will be conducted by members and/or staff during the

allotted time period. Some questions may seem basic, but that is because we

need to clearly establish facts and understand the situation. Please do not

assume we know any facts you have previously disclosed as part of any other

investigation or review.

We ask that you give complete and fulsome replies to questions, based on

your best recollection. If a question is unclear or if you are uncertain in your

response, please let us know. And if you do not know the answer to a question or

cannot remember, simply say so.

During the course of this interview, we will take any breaks that you desire.

This interview is being transcribed. There is a reporter making a record of

these proceedings so we can easily consult a written compilation of your answers.

Because the reporter cannot record gestures, we ask that you answer

verbally. If you forget to do this, you might be reminded to do so. You may also

be asked to spell certain terms or unusual phrases.




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Also, please use the microphone when speaking. A green light indicates

that the microphone is on.

You are entitled to have a lawyer present for this interview, though you are

not required to do so. I see that you have counsel present and would ask your

attorney to make an appearance for the record.

MR. SOCARRAS: My name is Michael Socarras, and I represent

Dr. Walid Phares.

I wanted to confirm the terms of the interview. I understand that the

interview will be confidential, that it will not be released outside the committee, and

that Dr. Phares will have the opportunity to review the transcript for any errors

before it is finalized. Is that correct?

Yes. And I'll address the review momentarily.

MR. SOCARRAS: Thank you.

To ensure confidentiality, we ask that you do not discuss this

interview with anyone other than your attorney. Consistent with the committee's

rules of procedure, you and your counsel, if you wish, will have a reasonable

opportunity to inspect the transcript of this interview in order to determine whether

your answers were correctly transcribed. The transcript will remain in the

committee's custody.

The committee also reserves the right to request your return for additional

questions, should the need arise.

The process for today's interview is as follows. The minority will be given

45 minutes to ask questions. Then the majority will be given 45 minutes to ask

questions.

Immediately thereafter, we will take a short break if you wish, after which




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the minority will be given 15 minutes to ask questions and the majority will be

given 15 minutes. We will then proceed in 15-minute rounds until questioning is

completed.

These time limits will be strictly adhered to.

Our record today will reflect that you have not been compelled to appear.

You are reminded that it is unlawful to deliberately provide false information to

Members of Congress or to staff.

The record will reflect that you are voluntarily participating in this interview,

which will be under oath.

Please raise your right hand.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

MR. PHARES: I do.

Thank you.

Mr. Schiff.

MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, and welcome. And I apologize, is it Dr.

Phares?

MR. PHARES: Yes, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Phares, I'd like to initially ask you about how you came

to join the Trump campaign and in what capacity you served.

So would you tell us a little bit about your political activity during the

Presidential campaign prior to joining the Trump campaign, if there was any, or

whether the Trump campaign was the first campaign you became involved with?

MR. PHARES: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here with you.

I joined in 2011, 2012 the Romney campaign. I was one of the advisers of

Governor Romney. I served throughout the campaign. And since we lost,




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therefore, I ended my term with them.

Between the Romney campaign and the Trump campaign, I have been at

times advising Members of Congress on issues related to the Middle East and

engaged also with Members of Congress and members of the European

Parliament caucus that deals with transatlantic security.

In the fall of 2015, since I was an adviser to a previous candidate, a number

of campaigns requested my expertise, including, in the report that I have

submitted, the Governor of Wisconsin, Scott Walker, Dr. Ben Carson.

The last candidate that basically requested -- who requested a meeting with

me was Mr. Donald Trump. That was in mid-December of 2015. I met him in

New York at the Tower. It was my first visit to the Tower, the first time I met him.

And we had a discussion of about 1 hour and 40 minutes, as a result of which he

asked me to stay in touch and provide him with insight on the region if and when

needed.

We stayed indirectly in touch, via his secretary, throughout January and

about mid-February. As far as I can recall, at the end of February, I was

contacted by his office to see if I'm willing to serve as one of his announced

advisers.

And I remember that in March, about mid-March, I have given my consent.

And he announced me during a visit that he had to The Washington Post as one of

the five named advisers.

Then they added more advisers throughout the campaign.

MR. SCHIFF: Before you go on, let me just go back over some of the

events that you discussed.

So in December 2015, when you met with Mr. Trump, was that the first time




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you had met him?

MR. PHARES: It was the first time I met him, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: And during the 1-hour and 40-minute discussion you had

with him, who else was present?

MR. PHARES: Corey Lewandowski.

MR. SCHIFF: And anyone else?

MR. PHARES: No, not that I remember.

MR. SCHIFF: And what was the nature of the discussion?

MR. PHARES: The discussion was a briefing I presented to Mr. Trump,

basically about the general situation in the Middle East and where the areas of

crisis are. And he asked several questions and I answered those questions.

MR. SCHIFF: And did part of your discussion involve Syria and Russian

involvement in Syria?

MR. PHARES: It involved Syria. Certainly, we spoke about Syria. And

there was a question about Russia and Syria.

MR. SCHIFF: And what was the question?

MR. PHARES: As far as I can remember, to show on a map where the

Russians were, where the influence of the Russians were, the northwestern part of

Syria.

MR. SCHIFF: And what other questions did the President have for you?

MR. PHARES: He asked me -- we discussed -- I brought -- I brought

about a few items, and then he asked me about them.

One of the items he was interested in was safe zones in Syria, how would

that work, where would they be. So I showed them on a map, that is with him,

where those safe zones are.




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The second idea that we discussed was how can the Arab countries help in

stabilizing Syria and in Iraq.

The third item that we have discussed was the extremist ideology and is it

possible to respond to this extremist ideology.

These were the three large themes that we have discussed.

MR. SCHIFF: And did he express any views to you on Russia's role in

Syria?

MR. PHARES: As far as I remember, he did not express a view on Russia,

but he expressed a view on Assad regime.

MR. SCHIFF: And what was the view expressed?

MR. PHARES: He asked me, What do you think we can do with regard to

the Assad regime? And my answer was, first, we have to have all the information

to see what would the other actors want.

And, of course, this is something that basically will have to come up, you

know, with a sitting administration, not -- we cannot discuss now what we can do

with an Assad regime.

But I mentioned that the Assad regime at this point in time is under the

protection of the Russians where they are.

MR. SCHIFF: Did he express a view one way or the other as to whether

the Russians were constructive or destructive actors in the region?

MR. PHARES: He did not mention any position with regard to the

Russians. Just go back to the point of the Assad regime. His question was

really, what do you think we should do with the Assad regime? Should we leave

him or should we pressure him as potential policy? But he did not mention the

Russian relation to the Assad regime.




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MR. SCHIFF: Is it fair to say that your discussion with him vis-a-vis Russia

was peripheral to the discussion?

MR. PHARES: It was peripheral to the discussion, yes, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: Any other light you can shed on then-candidate Trump's

views on Russia as expressed in that meeting?

MR. PHARES: Not that I can remember about Russia in general. The

only mention was Russia on the coast of Syria and where they are deployed.

That's what I can remember from that discussion.

MR. SCHIFF: Now, you mentioned a secretary. Was that Rhona Graff?

MR. PHARES: Yes, sir, it was her.

MR. SCHIFF: And is she the one who reached out to you to set up the

meeting?

MR. PHARES: Yes, sir, she was the one.

MR. SCHIFF: You mentioned in February you had your next contact with

the campaign when they reached out to you to see if you would be an adviser to

the campaign?

MR. PHARES: As far as I can recall, it was about mid- to end of February.

During that time, they reached out to me to see if I am willing to give my name as

one of the five named -- one of the named. I didn't know how many would there

be.

MR. SCHIFF: And at mid-March, you got back to them to say that you

would?

MR. PHARES: I don't remember clearly the date, but I can imagine that it

was about 1 week to 10 days before he actually released the names. So that

would be around that time.




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MR. SCHIFF: Did you have some reluctance, or why did it take as long as

it did for you to answer?

MR. PHARES: At first, from December, I was not comfortable to be an

adviser to 1 candidate out of 14 candidates, and I was trying not to get involved in

primaries. That's my own choice.

So later on, when the field was narrowing, I consulted with my family and

friends, and I had a second hesitation should I go into another campaign after the

2012 campaign, and I made my decision that I should.

MR. SCHIFF: You mentioned in February somebody had reached out to

you to see if you would be an adviser. Who was it that reached out to you?

MR. PHARES: There were two persons. One is Rhona Graff. The other

one is Ivanka, Ms. Ivanka, Mrs. Ivanka, who actually phoned me and asked me if

I'm willing to join her father's campaign.

MR. SCHIFF: Now, when Ivanka called, did she ask you to join the

campaign in the capacity as a foreign policy adviser?

MR. PHARES: She asked me to join the campaign, as far as I can recall,

as an adviser. I assumed it will be foreign policy adviser.

MR. SCHIFF: Did she have any role in the foreign policy shop of the

campaign?

MR. PHARES: Now, Congressman, we're talking about the entire

campaign to answer that question?

MR. SCHIFF: Yes.

MR. PHARES: Okay. In the early months of the campaign, I didn't see

that she had any role. In the further months, towards the summer, after the

convention, I reached out to her to try to get some idea as to the candidate,




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because he was being prepared for the debates. And the debates I think were in

about September.

So that was my involvement with her in terms of foreign policy. She would

send those ideas to whomever was in charge of preparing him.

MR. SCHIFF: Do you know why it was that she was the one to reach out

to you to ask you to be an adviser to the campaign?

MR. PHARES: Congressman, as far as I can remember, I don't know why.

MR. SCHIFF: And at what point did you reach back to her to provide ideas

to the candidate?

MR. PHARES: There were several times throughout the campaign, till

about October, where I reached out to her, asking her, for example, a question,

such as, who should I reach out in the campaign for a purpose or another

purpose? Because I was based in Washington, D.C. I wasn't in New York. I

wasn't in the smaller circle of people advising the candidate directly. So these

were the first purposes.

In about end of August and September, I became active. I reached out to

her and asked her, can you convey some of the ideas to the people briefing and

prepping the candidate?

MR. SCHIFF: I may come back to that, but I want to find out about your

role with the campaign in the interim.

MR. PHARES: Yes.

MR. SCHIFF: So in mid-March, you are named as one of five foreign

policy advisers to the President. Who informed you that you were going to be

named? Did anyone tell you about that before the announcement?

MR. PHARES: I had that conversation with Ivanka Trump. And she told




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me, can we now use your name? I said, yes, now you can use my name, I've

accepted, but it's up to them at their discretion to release it to the media.

As far as I can remember, I think candidate Trump at that time released my

first name during either an interview, probably with MSNBC or some other forum, I

don't clearly remember. They have asked him, who do you follow on foreign

policy or who advises you on foreign policy? He mentioned a couple names,

including Richard Haass. And then -- and he said Walid.

A couple people from the press reaching out to me, is that you? I did not

answer, because I didn't know what was my status yet.

Then I was surprised that day when -- surprised meaning I was not

expecting that he would release my name to The Washington Post. I was sitting

at my desk in my office, and phone calls started to come to me and telling me that

your name has been released, among other names.

MR. SCHIFF: When you called in mid-March to give your consent, did you

call Ivanka, is that who you reached out to?

MR. PHARES: Called Ivanka? Yes. Either called or emailed, I don't

remember, Congressman, but it's one of the two.

MR. SCHIFF: But you would have reached out to her, contacted her to

give your consent, because she was the one who originally asked?

MR. PHARES: That's correct, Congressman.

MR. SCHIFF: And what was your contact with the campaign after you

were named as one of the five foreign policy advisers?

MR. PHARES: It was gradual, as far as I can remember. So Ivanka told

me, now you have to meet with Dr. --

MR. SCHIFF: Page?




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MR. PHARES: No, no. The co-chair. I just blanked.

MR. SCHIFF: J.D. Gordon?

MR. PHARES: No, higher. I blanked on his name.

Sam Clovis?

MR. PHARES: Sam Clovis, thank you. I blank on names sometimes.

MR. SCHIFF: Trying to figure out who were doctors here.

MR. PHARES: Yeah, he's a doctor in government affairs.

So she asked me to meet with him. I'm going to fly to Washington, D.C.,

and then I'm going to be signing a nondisclosure agreements, which campaigns

do. So that was the first time I met with Sam Clovis.

MR. SCHIFF: And when would that have been?

MR. PHARES: That would have been after I consented, as far as I can

remember, and before my name was released.

MR. SCHIFF: Okay.

MR. PHARES: And he made me sign a nondisclosure agreement, NDA.

And then I asked him, are you signing up other members? He said, yes, you will

know later.

MR. SCHIFF: And where did you meet him?

MR. PHARES: At the hotel in the Virginia side. I don't remember exactly

where, but I could remember and supply you with that.

MR. SCHIFF: In Alexandria?

MR. PHARES: Yes. I should not say yes very quickly. I could get the

name of that hotel or at least the area of that hotel.

MR. SCHIFF: Oh, it's a hotel?

MR. PHARES: It's a hotel, yes, sir.




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MR. SCHIFF: And what did you discuss with Mr. Clovis at that time?

MR. PHARES: Well, we had a discussion on politics and geopolitics. He

gave me some of his own views. I gave him some of my views.

And then he gave me the briefing about what does it mean to sign an NDA.

And he told me, once you sign, you are not at liberty to discussing what's

happening inside the campaign or the structure before consulting with us.

MR. SCHIFF: Now, you understand, in terms of today's interview, that the

NDA does not preclude you from discussing anything we ask you about?

MR. PHARES: Yes, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: I just want to make sure that you don't not answer a

question fully because you think you are constrained by the NDA.

MR. PHARES: Thank you, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: In the substantive non-NDA portion of your conversation

with Mr. Clovis, what topics did you discuss?

MR. PHARES: From what I can remember, there was one topic that was

more striking to me, because it caught my attention, than other topics, because I

am mostly interested in foreign policy, national security, than in domestic policy.

So one of the topics he mentioned was that he would be interested in a

future U.S. policy to engage more so with national legislatures in Europe than with

the European Parliament.

And the reason why we discussed that, because I unveiled to him that I am

a co-secretary general of a transatlantic group between Members of the U.S.

Congress and members of the European Parliament. So I am very much close to

the European Parliament.

So he was explaining to me that his view is slightly different, that he would




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rather that the Congress or the U.S., independently from the campaign, would

rather meet with and work with the national legislatures.

MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss Russia at all in that meeting?

MR. PHARES: In that meeting? No, Congressman, I don't remember we

discussed Russia at that meeting. But in future meetings, when you're going to

ask me, I'll be happy to brief.

MR. SCHIFF: Okay. Tell me about the next meeting or communication

you had with the campaign.

MR. PHARES: So next person to reach out to me was J.D. Gordon.

MR. SCHIFF: And when would that have been?

MR. PHARES: If I may just explain about J.D. Gordon.

MR. SCHIFF: Yes.

MR. PHARES: I had known J.D. Gordon before the campaign. I had

actually known him in the previous cycle of campaigning. He was serving another

campaign. I think it was Governor Huckabee. And I'd known him as NGO work.

So I'd known him for the 3, 4 years. He lectured at my university.

So he reached out to me and he told me that he is now coordinating the

activities of Senator Sessions, who is going to be in charge of a group of advisers

on national security and foreign policy. I was not updated about that group by

Ivanka or by Mr. Trump's secretary first. So he just told me, you're going to be

one of us, one of that team. I said, fine.

Then he told me, we are going to be having a meeting with the candidate.

We don't know where that meeting is going to be. We will only know at the last

minute.

I asked him why? He said, because there are going to be a lot of media




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following to see where the meeting will be. And, therefore, stay put. We'll tell

you when the meeting will happen and where.

MR. SCHIFF: And when did you have this conversation with J.D. Gordon?

Was it on the phone, in person, and when?

MR. PHARES: That was on the phone. That was on the phone.

Now, the best way for me to remember, because I did not take notes, it was

about 1 week before the so-called advisory board meeting with the candidate at

the Trump Tower under construction. So I could calculate that would be 1 week

before.

MR. SCHIFF: Okay.

MR. PHARES: He informed me of something else. He mentioned that

the New York campaign told him that a policy shop executive office, is going to be

opened in Washington in the Virginia side, and that would be in Alexandria, not far

from King Street. And then they requested that I would join that office.

So I asked him who is going to be the executive director of the office. And

he told me it's going to be Mr. Rick Dearborn, and that he is going to join.

I asked him, will other advisers named by the candidate will be joining. He

said, as far as he knows, it's only me, and they will see if others will join or not or if

they will go to New York.

So these were the conversations. I think it was more than one

conversation I had with Mr. Gordon before the meeting at the Trump Tower.

MR. SCHIFF: Did Mr. Gordon tell you whether you would become a paid

member of the staff or merely a volunteer adviser, or what capacity you would

serve?

MR. PHARES: No. His knowledge was that I will be as a volunteer. At




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that time, I was a volunteer and he was a volunteer, and everybody serving in that

office at that time were volunteers.

MR. SCHIFF: And would the policy shop in Alexandria, led by Mr.

Dearborn, would that be focused on national security, foreign policy issues?

MR. PHARES: I asked him the question, and I got the answer slice after

slice.

So one part of that entire office, one side will be policy in general -- that

includes national policy, legislations, relations with Congress, and there were

individuals in charge of that task -- and then foreign policy and national security.

And once we met -- and you could ask me, please, about the details -- once

we met the first time with Mr. Rick Dearborn, he assigned several tasks to several

people. Mr. Gordon was assigned national security. I was assigned foreign

policy. Mr. Mashburn, John Mashburn, if I'm not wrong on the name, was

assigned domestic policy. There was another gentleman -- I forgot the

name -- who was assigned relationship with Congress.

So multiple desks. And there were other staffers with us as well. Only

one staffer was also assigned foreign policy, but specifically diplomatic relations.

And that's Tera Dahl, D-a-h-l.

So that was the structure of the office.

Let me add for your knowledge that there was another side to the office

where there was another team, which we didn't know and we'd never been to the

other side, who were in charge of dealing with elections, with delegates, with this

whole operation.

MR. SCHIFF: Was Mr. Manafort part of that?

MR. PHARES: We were told that they respond to Mr. Manafort, but I have




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not seen Mr. Manafort personally. I have learned that he has visited that office. I

personally did not see him.

MR. SCHIFF: And so was this all communicated to you during that first

meeting or over time about the nature of the Alexandria office?

MR. PHARES: It was communicated to me by Mr. Gordon via phone calls

and probably a coffee meeting just before we met, just before we moved to that -- I

think at the Starbucks downstairs -- before we moved to that apartment or office.

MR. SCHIFF: And did you move into that office prior to the meeting with

the candidate or after the meeting with the candidate?

MR. PHARES: As far as I can remember -- I mean, I real squeeze my

memory here -- as far as I can remember, we had at least one or two meetings.

We were supposed to go that office 9 to 5. That was the principle. I did not

comply completely with 9 to 5, but certainly 9 to a few hours.

During those initial days, then we were told that there's going to be a

meeting with the candidate when he visits Washington, D.C.

MR. SCHIFF: And in those initial conversations with J.D. Gordon and the

other people who had come to occupy that office and prior to the meeting with the

candidate, was Russia a part of the discussion at all?

MR. PHARES: Prior to the meeting with the candidate, as far as I can

remember, there could have been -- that's why I'm saying, underlining could have

been -- a discussion between Gordon and myself: Okay, what is it that we're

going to do? Who's going to cover what?

And then I mentioned that I will be covering the Middle East. That's my

area of expertise.

And then we asked ourselves the question, who will be covering Latin




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America, who will be covering Russia, who will be covering China?

So we had that discussion, but there were no substantive material to what

we're going to do in which direction or who exactly is it going to be.

And I remember now, I did remember already, that Mr. Gordon had a task

to assemble a list of specialists, eventually advisers, lower-level advisers, who

would deal with the various files. And that list must be with him or with some

archive. But that is the extent I can remember that Russia was discussed.

MR. SCHIFF: And do you recall who was assigned Russia?

MR. PHARES: Not at that stage, Congressman. To the best of my

understanding or recollection, I didn't see names actually covering the areas other

than the Middle East. I mean, other than myself for the Middle East.

MR. SCHIFF: And this list that you discussed that J.D. Gordon had written

up, was it a handwritten list or a typewritten list?

MR. PHARES: I think it was both, Congressman, the best way I can

remember, because we were sitting at the desk, and then he would be putting

names, scratching names, going to see Mr. Rick Dearborn and back, and would

ask him, what are these names, who are these people? I saw that list twice

scribbled and then I saw it typed.

MR. SCHIFF: And do you recall, if not at that time, at some subsequent

time, who was assigned on the list to Russia?

MR. PHARES: The best of my remembrance, no, I do not recall a name

for Russia. But I recall that there should be somebody, an expert on Russia to

give analysis on Russia.

Because the idea initially before I left the office was we need to have

experts who would write policy papers on all these countries, including Middle




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East, Latin America, China, Russia. So that was the principle.

But I don't remember seeing a specific name related to Russia. I saw

many names, former generals, former people who served in the government. I

can't recall all their names, but if I see the list, I can confirm that the names were

on or not.

MR. SCHIFF: And when were you informed about the meeting that would

take place with the candidate, how many days in advance of the meeting?

MR. PHARES: That's a good question to try to remember well. The best I

can remember is that Mr. Gordon told me maybe about 2 to 3 days -- I could be

wrong, but I just do my best to remember -- that the candidate will be visiting

Washington. There was another event in Washington that I can't recall. Maybe

a meeting in -- with Congress at the time.

So he told me there's going to be a meeting. The morning of the day of the

meeting, he mentioned to me that be ready, it's going to be either at the location

near Congress, the law office, Jones --

MR. SCHIFF: Jones Day?

MR. PHARES: Yes, sir. Or it's going to be at another location.

Then probably about, to the best of my recollection, an hour and a half

before, he said, it's going to be at the Trump Hotel. I said, it's under construction.

He said, yes, it's going to be at the Trump Hotel. So you're going to go there and

there is the door, specific door on Pennsylvania, you go in, and they will lead you

to that room.

MR. SCHIFF: If you'd walk us through what happened when you went to

that meeting, as best you can, in terms of what happened prior to the meeting,

what happened during the meeting, your participation, others. If you could give




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us a narrative what took place.

MR. PHARES: Yes, sir. Prior to that, I may just preface something. So

I'll give you all what I remember. Then when I went in, I'll try to give you the best

that I can remember.

But the issue is that because there have been so many statements about

that meeting, including last summer, and many of the persons or some of the

persons who have opined or expressed what was happening in the meeting, so

they are impacting the memory about the meeting.

MR. SCHIFF: Sure.

MR. PHARES: If you understand what I'm trying to say. So I'm going to

give you first my original recollection of the meeting, and then there are going to

be layers of what other people said, and I could confirm or infirm (ph) if it's sound.

MR. SCHIFF: That's very helpful. I have to say, you're one of the most

clear witnesses we've had. We appreciate that.

MR. PHARES: I will try to be as clear, and maybe my accent is helping

me. I don't know. Speaking slowly for them.

MR. SCHIFF: Please go ahead.

MR. PHARES: Please, thank you.

So I went there and I went to the entrance. It was all under construction.

And we ended up in a room which was not well-equipped with a long table. And

then it was the first time I meet with all of the others except J.D. Gordon. So let

me just begin by who knew who.

So there was J.D. Gordon. There were the other members. If you have

the picture, I could --

We do.




22

[The information follows:]

******** INSERT 1-1 ********




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MR. PHARES: Okay. The famous picture. And it will be in my memoirs,

but let me explain how it ended up being here.

So there was the table right here, and we started to move from all sides.

We didn't know where the candidate is going to be sitting. So everybody was

selecting their chairs. I imagined that he would be sitting where Senator Sessions

is. So I told him, let me go and hide on the other side. So I went. Here you can

see my bare head, right here.

And let me just say, that Senator Sessions I've seen on TV, maybe one

time in a green room of a TV. I didn't have any relationship with the Senator.

Gordon, I just said that I knew Mr. Gordon very well.

Papadopoulos, I have never seen him before. Neither I knew anything

about him nor when he was Googled, because his name was -- you know, other

than the U.N. model that he spoke about, I didn't know anything.

Mr. Schmitz, whom I knew better during the campaign, I didn't know him

personally, but when we spoke we knew person in common. He was a former

inspector general in one of the departments.

Admiral or General Mizusawa, I didn't know him from before.

The gentleman here, I don't have his name and I didn't know him even

before.

Admiral Kubic, also, I didn't know him from before.

And is it Kellogg? General Kellogg.

So from the whole group here, I only knew Senator Sessions, from public

appearances, and Mr. Gordon.

So I sat there. Then the candidate came in, and he came in with many




24

other people. So when you see that picture, this is not just the people who were

in the room. There were many people standing around or sitting around.

And as far as I can remember, there were pictures taken from a person

here, and then some other person stood up there on a chair and took more

pictures. I just happened to be -- because in the media you see the angles,

maybe they're important. So there may be other pictures of the meeting, that was

my point.

And then the persons who are here, I would assume they were from the

campaign coming from New York. I recognized one person because she

introduced herself to me, and that's Ms. Hope. Full name --

MR. SCHIFF: Hope Hicks?

MR. PHARES: Hope Hicks, yes, sir.

And one of the persons shook my hand, but -- I think one was Mr. Rick

Dearborn, was also present at that meeting. The others, I don't recall who they

were.

Oh, one person, so I can be completely clear here. The gentleman here is

one of the vice presidents of the Heritage Foundation. I don't recall his -- he's a

friend, and I'm sorry, I'm blanking on his name, but we could -- he was in the

transition as well. It's terrible with names with me.

So this is the scenario of how we entered and we sat. So Senator

Sessions was the first -- so the candidate came in, and then he sat and looked at

everybody. And I was -- I happened to be the immediate person next to him. It

was intimidating and impressive.

So Senator Sessions was the one who opened, said, well, thank you,

candidate -- Mr. Trump, for coming and let me introduce you to the individuals




25

here.

I am not sure that he has met everybody before, but he was in charge, so

he had the list of the individuals.

Now I will give you my recollection at the time without being influenced by

what was said before -- what was said later, because that's very important, could

impact my memory.

So what I remember is that Senator Sessions was the one who introduced

the event, the meeting, and he was the one who introduced the candidate to us,

some sort of preface, you know. And then he was the one who gave the idea that

each one of you, why don't you tell the candidate who are you and what do you do

and whatever you want to express to him.

And to my concern, he started with me. So that's in my memoirs and, of

course, in the Halls of Congress.

Since he had seen me already in December, I assumed he would

remember me. And he remembers my first name more than my last name, for

some reason. So I covered two areas. And most of the members remember

that, including Mr. Gordon. I began with a joke, and then I made one little

statement.

And the reason why I did not want to go into depth, number one, because

I've served before in a campaign and I know how these things happen. If you go

in depth in a meeting like this, it's going to take a long time. And I don't have any

subject that I can, you know, develop in 1 minute.

Second, I didn't know about all the others, what do they think. So I

reserved my in depth to later, thinking that later I'm going to be meeting with the

candidate or with the seniors and then talking about.




26

So the joke was that -- looked at him, Mr. Trump -- since you appointed me,

I have been hit by my hostiles. I have a lot of people who criticize my work. It

has nothing to do with the campaign. I publish and people who don't like

my -- what I say or what I write. I have been attacked many times. So the joke

was, I took away from you 20 percent of the attacks against you, 20 percent of the

attacks against you. So that was, I thought, was a joke, and they laughed.

The second point, I mentioned that I am focusing now on looking at the

greater Middle East, and I'll be happy to update the campaign on the ongoing four

wars that exist and on what could be good signs and bad signs coming from the

region.

That's as far as I can remember. Maybe it was longer; maybe it was

shorter. And then the gentlemen, most of the gentlemen next to me, they started

to each one express their views.

I remember from this side, I'm not sure if it was General Kellogg or Admiral

Kubic, they mentioned military readiness. So this is what I remember from the

first cycle, from the first raw material into my ear.

Because, frankly, I was more interested in looking at Mr. Trump, to be

honest -- that's reality, you are sitting with Donald Trump -- and than listening at

what the other members were talking about.

But I do remember that they mentioned military readiness, and one of the

two mentioned nuclear preparedness. Preparedness. Okay.

These are the items that I remember from this. They may have said more

than that, but this sticks to my head. And it went around all the way to, I think,

Gordon. Gordon spoke, as far as I can remember, about media and

communications. And, of course, I'm sure you want me to talk about




27

Mr. Papadopoulos.

MR. SCHIFF: Yes, please.

MR. PHARES: Okay. What I can remember from what Mr. Papadopoulos

was saying -- and my attention was very low, as I said -- it was Russia and the

United States. There is no doubt about the two terms were there.

And the next term I remember was, I could -- I could either do something or

reach. But that's what he meant. I don't remember the actual words of English,

but that's what he actually meant, that I could do, I know, I. And then he said, the

third item I remember, relations could be fixed. This is the fragments of what I

remember.

Now, because there has been so much media and so much hearings and et

cetera, there are fuller sentences that were used later. And I've been

asked -- and I've never been on the media, by the way, never -- about the whole

issue of investigation, but that's what I remember about Mr. Papadopoulos'

statement. I don't remember about the statements of the other three gentlemen.

Then I can say a few words about the candidate himself.

MR. SCHIFF: Yes. Before we leave Mr. Papadopoulos, obviously, what

he said during the meeting has been the subject of a lot of press coverage since.

Did that coverage refresh your recollection at all to the particulars of what he said?

MR. PHARES: That's a great question, Congressman. Some of the

coverage refreshed a little bit, some of the statements that were made ringed into

my brain that this could have been what he had said. It goes along what I was

hearing.

Unfortunately, my first hearing was not -- my first reception of the words

was not. But it's like a line, you could put a word and a word and a word.




28

Meaning my interest is Russia -- I'm paraphrasing.

MR. SCHIFF: Yes.

MR. PHARES: My interest is Russia. I have contacts I could develop if

you want or something like that, and then the relationship could be fixed.

So any sentence that was said later in the media or in hearings that would

go along these lines would be most likely what could have been said.

MR. SCHIFF: And do you recall when Mr. Papadopoulos made these

comments, did it prompt any reaction from Jeff Sessions?

MR. PHARES: Yes. There was -- again, there was a reaction from

Senator Sessions. And excuse me, but my memory is only visual than words.

He kind of tried to stop the conversation and, as the media said, shut it down,

meaning we'll address that later, this is not the time to talk about this. I cannot

remember the words, but that was the general attitude of Mr. Sessions.

MR. SCHIFF: And did the President respond directly to what

Mr. Papadopoulos said?

MR. PHARES: The candidate then responded. But, again, it's so tough to

remember. When you're sitting and looking at him, I kind of forgot what he was

saying.

But he said, okay, I heard you, or something in that vicinity. He didn't ask

him another question, as far as I can remember, can you expand on this? I

mean, the whole attitude, I can say clearly now, for all of the statements, including

mine, is that he was not there to engage all these members in in-depth

discussions.

And I opined already at the Senate side that my feeling -- this is only my

feeling, I could be wrong -- that the meeting was about the picture and to send the




29

message that: I have a foreign policy team. That's my impression. I could be

wrong, but I did not change my impression.

MR. SCHIFF: Now, Mr. Sessions' response to Mr. Papadopoulos,

essentially this is not the time, we'll address this later, did that happen after

everyone finished speaking or did that happen immediately after Papadopoulos

finished speaking?

MR. PHARES: That I have a clearer remembrance. It was after

Mr. Papadopoulos.

MR. SCHIFF: And the President's comments about, I heard you, would

those have been -- did he address people sequentially after each spoke, or did he

wait until everyone was done and then sort of go around the table?

MR. PHARES: Congressman, I remember, the best I can, is that after

each person he said a few words.

MR. SCHIFF: And your best recollection, in terms of what he responded to

Papadopoulos, was something along the lines that: I hear you?

MR. PHARES: Yes, I hear you. He could have said other words, but I

don't remember what were the other words.

I don't think, from my recollection, that he engaged except for the question

about nuclear readiness. He asked a question. So the military who said, our

nuclear readiness, he then asked a question and the military responded, as far as

I can remember, and then Mr. Trump closed.

MR. SCHIFF: And did candidate Trump make any kind of a closing set of

remarks after everyone spoke or was there another round of discussion or was

this, as you indicated, more about getting the photo?

MR. PHARES: I repeat again here that my impression was that he was in




30

a hurry to come in, to engage, to probably have this picture, and then to go to

other meetings. That was my impression, because I've been with previous

candidates in those setting of meetings. I don't think anyone except, I think, the

Senator where -- and where the candidate will come and then will have an

in-depth discussion of issues.

So I saw clearly this was different. That's my initial impression.

Now, when we -- when we -- when the last person here finished,

Mr. Sessions said, thank you all, and thank you, Mr. Candidate. And I think the

candidate may have said -- and I can't recall clearly -- something, the usual very

abstract. He didn't go to substance. You know, when he's not reading from a

text, he has abstract statements that he -- he made one of those abstract

statements.

MR. SCHIFF: And when Mr. Sessions commented after Papadopoulos

that this is not the time, we'll address that later, was it your sense that -- was he

cutting off Mr. Papadopoulos for going on too long and wanted to essentially move

on, or was he commenting in some way about the nature of what

Mr. Papadopoulos was proposing?

MR. PHARES: The best of my recollection, Congressman, is that he was

probably doing both. Mr. Papadopoulos was going on and on unusually, and

Senator Sessions wanted him to be -- to stop. But he didn't cut off anybody else.

So I imagine and project, to the best of my understanding, that he was not

comfortable with the subject. He was not comfortable that the subject was being

stretched to drag the candidate into discussion. That's the best of my

recollection.

Five minutes, sir.




31

MR. SCHIFF: And was there any other discussion during that meeting of

U.S.-Russia relations or contacts with Russia?

MR. PHARES: During that meeting?

MR. SCHIFF: Yes.

MR. PHARES: No. Once the -- no, meaning as far as I can remember.

When this gentleman ended, Sessions thanked everybody, Mr. Trump, thanks

again, and everybody stood up and then withdrew.

If your question is, were there discussions about Russia after the meeting,

then I have a different answer. Would you like that?

MR. SCHIFF: Yes, I would.

MR. PHARES: Okay. Then everybody was to be introduced to

everybody. It was chaos inside the room. And then we were evacuated out of

the room. So the candidate and his team left.

And I think it was J.D. or maybe Joe Schmitz who said, okay, guys why

don't we go across the street, there is a restaurant, and then we will get to know

each other, because we didn't know each other, and keep the discussion.

So we went there, and there we had discussions. So each one of the

advisers, named advisers will tell the others about what they are doing. But it was

loud, it was waiters coming, ordering. So it was not a significant sit-down.

But I remember that Mr. Papadopoulos during that lunch and screening,

everybody else was talking about what's their interest, he mentioned then Russia.

He said he was excited that he was able to meet with the candidate and throw the

first idea, and then he mentioned Russia.

Now, do I recall every word he mentioned? I do not. But he went back to

Russia and said, let's see what I can do and et cetera. He did not get the




32

attention of the other advisers there, but my ear heard that he mentioned Russia,

but nothing really practical intention.

MR. SCHIFF: When you said he said something along the lines of let me

see what I can do or put together, did you have the impression that he was

indicating that he was going to pursue his contacts with Russia on behalf of the

campaign?

MR. PHARES: As I told the Senate, I mean, that was -- that was not a

secret. I mean, him trying to say I have contacts was a conversation every time

he would see people for the little times we met him, he would mention that. And

he was not hiding. He said, you know, we could reach out and we could do this.

So that was what Mr. Papadopoulos was trying to bring to the table.

MR. SCHIFF: Now, you mentioned that you tried to separate your

recollection of the meeting from what it first was and then what it later became. Is

there something in particular that you saw in press reporting that gives you a

better understanding what took place in the meeting? Is there something else

you wanted to add with respect to that?

MR. PHARES: Congressman, for that meeting, I think, personally, I think,

meaning the best way I can recollect, is that the reporting about the meeting at

some point was bigger than the actual meeting. That's my modest recollection of

it.

I cannot report on what individuals told individuals around. I mean, this is a

group of at least seven, plus another eight. So the conversations that took place,

that I could not capture that, I cannot testify to. So I did my best to mention to you

that when we went to the restaurant, the name, the term "Russia" was used.

MR. SCHIFF: After the meeting in the restaurant, what was the next




33

campaign interaction?

MR. PHARES: The next campaign interaction, to the best of my

knowledge, unless you remind me of anything in between, was the famous, highly

publicized foreign policy speech by the candidate at the Mayflower Hotel where we

were asked -- I was still -- I was still visiting the executive office in Alexandria,

because I will want to mention that I only lasted 2 weeks, then I left the office.

But during that time, if I recall well, again, Mr. J.D. Gordon asked us,

myself, all the other members who were named, to go to the Mayflower, because

the candidate is going to deliver a speech on foreign policy. And then our task

was to speak with media after the speech is delivered. So we were to act as

surrogates.

And, two, if there are NGO people, federation, foundation, because they

have invited -- actually, the team has invited a long list of people. Not just the

media, but of community leaders, think tanks, et cetera.

One minute, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: One minute? My colleagues will pick up the chronology

there.

MR. PHARES: Absolutely.

MR. SCHIFF: But I do want to ask you, when is the first time that you had

contact with Carter Page?

MR. PHARES: That's a question I need to be reflecting very seriously

about.

I remember the first time -- what I can remember, but I could do more

reflection on that -- was at the lunch for the group. The group -- J.D. organized a

couple lunches. So at one of the lunches Carter Page was there.




34

MR. SCHIFF: Was that before or after the Mayflower speech?

MR. PHARES: I don't have recollection. Most likely, if I can use this

terminology, most likely it was after. But I don't have a recollection. I don't have

notes, unfortunately, from this very dense time.

MR. SCHIFF: Okay. Thank you. I yield to the majority.

Thank you.

BY

Q And, Dr. Phares, thank you for being here, on behalf of the

committee and the majority members. I hope that you will please attribute the

absence of any members on our side to the vagaries of the congressional

schedule, which led to votes being cancelled today at the last minute, rather than

any lack of interest in what you have to share with us.

I want to start by focusing a little more on Mr. Papadopoulos and then

turning to Mr. Page.

So candidate Trump may have mentioned you once on TV, but you were

formally announced as a foreign policy adviser during a meeting between

candidate Trump and The Washington Post editorial board. Is that correct?

A That's correct, sir.

Q And you were one of five people that he mentioned as a

formal -- publicly announced as a foreign policy adviser at that time. Is that

correct?

A One of five, and then others were added later.

Q Right.

A So we became that large.

Q Right. But the initial five included yourself, correct?




35


Q It included Mr. Page?

A The announced, yes, included Mr. Page, yes.

Q And it also included Mr. Papadopoulos?

A That's correct, yes.

Q So at the time when Mr. Papadopoulos was announced as a foreign

policy adviser alongside yourself, did you know anything about him or who he

was?

A At the time where those names announced, if you ask me about both

Mr. Papadopoulos and Mr. Page, I didn't know anything about them.

Q And you had never met them?

A I have never met them before.

Q And you had never interacted with them in any way?

A Never read any piece, any article. Because sometimes you don't

know the person personally in Washington, but you know their work. It was a

total dark on both of them.

Q Right. And do you have any insight you could share with us as to

how Mr. Papadopoulos initially became affiliated with the campaign?

A To the best of my recollection and reconstruction -- recollection is my

memory, reconstruction is after a few months I had discussions with other people

around and they said my reconstruction -- so at the time I didn't know how they

came. But with time my mind started to reconstruct the facts.

Now I know that Mr. Papadopoulos was first working with another campaign

before he joined the Trump campaign.

Q And which campaign was that?




36

A Dr. Ben Carson. At the time I didn't know, because I personally

briefed Dr. Carson, but I didn't know who he had with him in his shop.

So he, Mr. Papadopoulos, according to the persons with whom I had

conversation, told me he came -- sorry, I'm too fast -- he came from that campaign

through individuals. I don't recall the names of the individuals. But one of the

individuals who basically was in touch with the Carson campaign to recruit

individuals after the doctor stepped down was Dr. --

Q Clovis?

A Clovis, thank you. So Dr. Clovis basically brought him to our

campaign.

Q And with respect to Dr. Page, do you have any idea -- so at the time

you didn't know, when he was announced, how he had become affiliated with the

campaign?

A No, I knew more about Mr. Papadopoulos, because I was told how

he came. But for Mr. Page till now, I don't know exactly how he came, till now.

Q Even sitting here today, you're not sure how he got on?

A Even sitting here today, I don't know. I'm not sure, but I would

qualify that I really don't have that information.

Q So with respect to Mr. Papadopoulos, you mentioned your

interactions with him or his presentation that he made on the meeting on March

31st as well as what you remember of the response from then-Senator Sessions.

Did you have any response to his comments, either that you expressed to

others or that you just felt yourself when he mentioned about proposing outreach

to Russia?

A At that meeting, none. At the restaurant get-together, I had a very




37

short conversation with him, because he was not sitting next to me. He was

sitting somewhere else.

Now, it's so back in time, but the little pieces I can remember, he had a

longer conversation with J.D. J.D. Gordon was interacting with everybody else

since he's the coordinator, but I captured that conversation.

But that was all for this event. Now, there are other events where I could

help you more.

Q Right. And one thing that strikes me from looking at this picture,

and I think it's been reflected in some of the media accounts of Mr. Papadopoulos,

is he was quite a bit younger and potentially less experienced than many of the

other advisers. Did you make anything of that as to -- or have any understanding

of why someone who is quite a bit younger than yourself and these other advisers

was affiliated with the campaign?

A All right. My answer will be twofold.

Number one -- number one is that since we haven't seen him -- and clearly I

have not done research on his age just before. Now, I know the media would do

research on his age, but I did not capture that.

When I saw him, I was a little bit surprised, that he's really young for this

level of advisers, but it would have been possible if he was really qualified for

some important matter. At this point, it was very early. We didn't know each

other.

Later on, I had -- we had discussions among ourself. We call them chats

among the members. And then it was raised, the issue of why would

Mr. Papadopoulos, in regard of his age or his CV, be one of us. Yes, that has

been raised by -- in our chats.




38

Q So you talked extensively about his comments in your interactions

with him on March 31st. Can you just characterize any other interactions you had

with Mr. Papadopoulos thereafter, particularly with respect to Russia?

A What is the span of time? That would help me. Because there

were email exchanges and there were discussions. Do you want me -- I could

add both of them.

Q Well, let's start with the in-person meeting. So other than -- well, so

was -- did you know whether or not Mr. Papadopoulos lived in D.C.?

A That -- I got the information from him during that lunch, that he told

us that he was living in London, and it was another surprise. And he said he had

another house or residence in Chicago. So he was not in D.C.

Q Right. So he didn't live in D.C.?

A No.

Q Did you ever see him in the D.C. office?

A Oh, no. The best I can remember, he had -- I have never seen him

in the D.C. office, per se.

Q By which I mean the one in Alexandria.

A Alexandria. Yes, sir.

Q Right. So you saw him at this meeting. You never saw him in the

Alexandria office. What other times during the campaign do you recall seeing

Mr. Papadopoulos in person?

A The best I can recall was at least -- this is the best I can recall -- at

one of the lunches -- we used to call them pizza meetings, it was an Italian

place -- he was there. And that was the probably first and most important time

where we exchanged ideas and views.




39

The second one was at Congress, and I mentioned it in my report,

where -- and I could expand a little bit to explain what that meeting was all about.

There were members of the European Parliament visiting with and meeting

with Members of the U.S. Congress, the House mostly, from both parties.

And the European side had mentioned to me when I went to speak to -- to

deliver a speech in Europe, that there is a lot of unease about your

candidate -- because they knew that I was a foreign policy adviser -- we would like

to have a delegation or a team from your campaign -- because they are right of

center -- when we come to Washington in July, mid-July, to explain to us or to

respond to a few questions.

I said, fine. I contacted Dr. Clovis. And he said, okay, let's have a team.

And Mr. Papadopoulos was part of that team.




40

[12:15 p.m.]

BY

Q Right. So that's a second time you remember meeting with him.

Are there any other personal meetings that you recall with Mr. Papadopoulos?

A I don't recall, but there could have been phone calls, and of course,

there were emails.

Q And in any of your discussions, phone calls, or email exchanges with

Mr. Papadopoulos, do you remember him discussing the idea of setting up

contacts with Russia similar to what he raised at this March 31st meeting?

A Yes, I can answer clearly because there's an email, maybe more

than one email.

Now, let me preface by saying our campaign emails have been closed

about December, early January, so I don't have access to them, but I know all the

committees, everybody has them.

Q Right.

A So there are emails in those, and I think I have a couple of emails

that I do have, and I'll be happy to send to your committee about -- sent by Mr.

Papadopoulos whereby clearly he said. I would like -- I cannot paraphrase

because the email is not in front of me -- I would like to suggest to try to establish

contact with people who could get him, therefore, the campaign, in touch with

Russia.

Q And do you recall who else might have been on those emails?

Again, understanding you don't have them in front of you, so we're just asking

about what you recall sitting here today.

A The best of my recollection, since we are going to have the email,




41

would be a number of persons on -- not all of them, a few of them, and Dr. Clovis.

Q And when you received these emails or were made aware of these

efforts by Mr. Papadopoulos to broker meetings with the Russians, what was your

response?

A As emails will show, none. And I have to also preface that, because

in one of the short conversations, I don't recall when, but Mr. Papadopoulos knew

about my work. I have published 12 books, so it's not I have to convince him, and

many articles and would see me on TV probably before the campaign and during

the campaign.

I was pushing back against Russia because of the Middle East. I didn't

interfere in the Russia-U.S. opinion making, but in the Middle East, Russia was

backing Iran and the Assad regime, and I am one of the voices that pushes

against that.

So I do project, not sure, that him not approaching me a lot on this issue

has to do with my public statement. He did have a conversation, though, but it

was not relentless on this issue. So, I think, when you read the email, you could

see who he sent that email to and you could see what was the interaction by

others.

Q What, if anything, do you recall of the response of others on the

campaign, particularly in more senior positions, to these efforts by Mr.

Papadopoulos?

A Now, again, here, you're going to have my recollection and what was

there in the media from all the research, so I'm going to try to merge both the best

I can.

From what I remember, without statements made to the media, is that there




42

were two persons reacting to Mr. Papadopoulos. That's what I can remember

from most of the discussions and exchanges.

One was Dr. Clovis; the other one was J.D. Gordon. The incident involving

J.D. Gordon and Papadopoulos, that I remember the most, was about Mr.

Papadopoulos out of London criticizing I think the Prime Minister of Great Britain

for him criticizing Donald Trump. And then J.D. Gordon rushed -- called him, but I

wasn't there to hear what he said. J.D. told us that he called him. He called also

Clovis, and both agreed that he has to stop -- Mr. Papadopoulos has to stop

making statements. That was the incident with J.D. Gordon.

Now, with Dr. Clovis, there were emails, and there was a

conversation -- and there was a conversation, let me see, when we were in

Congress about that matter. So let me go, first of all, about the emails.

The emails I saw were the emails that I saw in the media, the same -- so I

guess they had them -- whereby Dr. Clovis, in the general terms, was attempting,

you know, not to give green lights to Papadopoulos to engage, trying to delay,

trying to get answers from leadership. That's how I read those emails. But if

they're in front of me, I could actually opine further because I saw them.

And Mr. Papadopoulos made several requests for trips. One of them was

to Russia, if I remember those emails, and one of them was general that would

include potentially Russia.

Q So do you recall anyone from the campaign encouraging or giving

sanctions to these sort of activities that Mr. Papadopoulos was engaged in to try to

broker contacts with the Russians?

A The one I remember vividly was Dr. Clovis because we were on

email with him. The ones I saw in the media now, of course, in archives --




43

Q So you recall Dr. Clovis encouraging these efforts?

A No, engaging about these efforts.

Q Right.

A Encouraging to go, meaning --

Q Yeah, let me ask my question again.

MR. SOCARRAS: Just listen to the question.

MR. PHARES: I'm sorry about that.

BY

Q Do you recall anyone from the campaign encouraging or offering

official sanction to Mr. Papadopoulos's efforts to broker these contacts with the

Russians?

A That's a very wide question. I would say, from what I recall, was

that Mr. Papadopoulos reaching out to Clovis, asking him what about such trips,

and then there's a blank. I don't recall, from my personal experience, what Dr.

Clovis has responded, but then I read an email.

So do you want to call this recall? That was what I learned in the media

later, that he had asked him, from what I can understand, to explore -- what would

that be -- meaning to give him a plan of what would that mean, and then nothing

has happened, as far as I understood.

Q And are you -- other than this meeting on March 31st, are you aware

of any other interactions between Mr. Papadopoulos and Candidate Trump?

A As far as I can remember, I am not aware of any of that information

related to any meeting between Mr. Papadopoulos or -- and the Candidate.

Q Are you aware of any meetings or interactions between Mr.

Papadopoulos and senior New York-based campaign officials?




44

A Months later -- we're now in about September -- on a different topic, I

learned that Mr. Papadopoulos and Mr. Steve Bannon conducted a meeting with

the Egyptian Ambassador and diplomats, with regard preparing for the meeting

between the Candidate and the Egyptian president who came to New York and

met with both candidates. That's as far as I can remember.

Q And you recall learning about that meeting at the time it happened or

you learned about it later?

A I learned that -- let me be very clear here. I learned about that

meeting from the Egyptians themselves later after the meeting took place. They

told me, well, this is how the meeting was taking place.

Q And understand this is a sort of -- asks a little bit for your

assessment, but when Mr. Papadopoulos was speaking about these interactions

with the Russians, did you perceive him as acting on behalf of the campaign and

the Candidate or did you perceive him to be kind of freelancing or maybe acting a

little bit outside of his brief as a policy adviser?

A If you can give me the space to qualify it as assessment. So this is

not going to be witnessing anything, but that's my own assessment from looking at

the progress in behavior and in conversations. That is a qualify. Then I would

say my assessment is that from the moment he made those approaches in the

meeting, that he could engage in these relationships, to the last time I remember

have seen him in Congress, because I don't remember after that have -- seeing

him. I don't have the recollection. Is that what he wanted to do is to appear in

the campaign as the person who could engage in establishing these relationships.

That's my assessment.

Now, but my assessment is not based on all the information because I have




45

very little information about that.

Q Are you aware of any interactions between Mr. Papadopoulos, who

you mentioned was based in London, and British government officials on behalf of

the campaign?

A He mentioned one time -- actually more than one time in front of the

rest, that he has a lot of contacts, including in Britain, and in Greece, and in Israel,

and in Egypt. He was always mentioning that he had all these great contacts.

Anything very specific on behalf of the campaign, I have no knowledge of.

Q Turning to Dr. Page. Now, I believe it was your testimony earlier

that when he was announced as a foreign policy adviser alongside yourself to the

Washington Post, you weren't familiar with him.

A I didn't know anything about him.

Q And that even to this day, you're not sure exactly how he found

himself on the campaign; is that right?

A Yes, to this day, I still don't know how he came to the campaign,

except he was brought in by Dr. Clovis.

Q Now, did Dr. Page attend this March 31st meeting with the

Candidate?

A I don't have a recollection of him being there. I could be wrong if he

was sitting somewhere else, but my memory tells me I don't remember. Plus I

have one fragment in my memory that one of the advisers that was supposed to

come couldn't make it, but I couldn't put a name on a face.

Q And do you know where Dr. Page lived or was based while he was

an adviser on the campaign?

A As far as he told us, in New York.




46

Q And did he have a desk or working space at the campaign office in

Alexandria?

A As far as I can remember, I haven't seen Mr. Page in that office.

Q Did you ever meet Dr. Page in person?

A I did meet with Dr. Page in person, yes.

Q And do you remember the circumstances of those meetings?

A I do remember one meeting whereby the whole group was meeting,

so the foreign policy organized by Mr. Gordon. So he was at least at one. That's

what my memory is telling me. And I do remember, of course, that he was at the

convention.

He was at the Republican convention, and he was doing that day that was

mentioned many time in the media where the advisers were invited to a panel, and

there were many diplomats. He was there.

Q And the advisers' get-together, where you met him, do you recall

where that was or when that was?

A I recall at least one time, which was at the Italian fine restaurant on

Route 7 in Virginia. So we were the advisers, and that was coordinated by Mr.

Gordon.

Another meeting that I did not attend took place between the advisers and

Senator Sessions. I don't know where it was, but I recall J.D. mentioning to me

that we -- can you come? I said I won't be able; I won't be in town. So there was

a meeting. That one was attended by Mr. Page.

Now, because of media and report, now I know that this meeting has been

discussed in various places.

Q But you weren't at the one -- the time you recall meeting Dr. Page,




47

Senator Sessions was not there; is that correct?

A No, he was not there.

Q All right. So when -- I just want to focus on the meeting that you

attended with Dr. Page. Did the two of you discuss Russia, or do you recall him

discussing Russia with anyone?

A Actually we were sitting around the table, so there were no

personal -- I mean, dual discussions. It was a general discussion, and Mr. Page

mentioned that -- well, we asked him, because he was mentioning that he

has -- he travels to Russia, he has a business in Russia, he's a consultant, so that

was -- basically, we asked him what do you do in life, so -- and then there were

questions and answers with him about his assessment of Russia relations.

Let me go back 1 inch up and say: At that time, discussing international

relations and relations with Russia or China or anybody in the world, was not a

taboo. It was a normal matter. So the questions were: who, among you, has a

better expertise on what area of the world, that was the understanding.

Q Right. And other than this meeting in the convention, do you ever

recall interacting with Dr. Page in person?

A Yes, I did interact with him at the convention. We had side -- quick

discussions. But there was one time -- I can't recall the date, but I could do

research to remember that date, was it before or after the convention where we

had a dinner, him and I. He was -- I was meeting -- here we go.

I was meeting with a few members of this team at the office of Mr. Attorney

Schmitz. Mr. Page was there. So we had that meeting, and then we left to the

mall and we had a dinner. So this was probably the meeting I can remember the

most where I spent time with him.




48

Q So that's -- by my count, that's three personal interactions with him

that you recall?

A These are the ones I recall.

Q And, again, I want to set aside the exchange of views with respect to

foreign policy topics, including Russia, but do you ever recall him seeking to broker

meetings or contacts with Russians on behalf of the campaign either him

expressing that in person or via email or via phone?

A Let me begin with, the clearest one is email. I have potential

memory that tells me that he may have mentioned Russia related matter in email.

Now, the issue is -- the campaign emails are not with me, but I if see them, I

could confirm them, and I'm not sure I have a private email with him on this issue.

All I can remember on email, that maybe during a discussion, a group discussion

he had mentioned it, but very limited.

In actual discussions that we had, he brought about the issue of, again,

relations between the U.S. and Russia can be fixed. That's the general theme,

that he travels to Russia professionally.

Q And was he saying -- did you understand him to be saying

relationships between Russia and the United States can be fixed if we adopt a

certain policy or that he was proposing to be involved in fixing them himself or

some sort of personal interactions?

A He did not suggest it to the advisers around him because they are

powerless in having him do anything, but he was speaking as an expert on Russia.

It's almost like Mr. Papadopoulos, but he was saying that it would be better if we

can fix our relationship with Russia.

Q Do you recall any -- are you aware of any direct interactions between




49

Dr. Page and Candidate Trump?

A I don't have any recollection of him reporting about him having a

meeting. What I remember is that him -- not protesting, but not happy that he was

not able to be meeting till that time with the Candidate.

Q Are you aware of any interactions between Dr. Page and senior New

York-based campaign officials?

A The best I can remember is that Mr. Page interacted with Dr. Clovis.

That, we know, he mentioned that element. I, at this point in time, do not

remember, unless I'm refreshed, my memory is refreshed, of him reporting about

him conducting meetings with anybody we could remember in New York, but he

was based in New York.

Q Now, as you discussed, two of the five campaign foreign policy

advisers that Candidate Trump announced to the Washington Post editorial board

had expressed an interest in improving U.S. and Russia relations, did you attribute

any significance to that fact, either at the time or later?

A So this is assessment, not direct testimony.

Q Understood.

A I have no information about why two and not five, so, obviously, the

person who recruited us is the one who decided about who is going to be there, so

we did not recruit them or each other.

Second, there was a difference between the way those two advisers

thought of international relations and therefore relations with Russia and the rest of

the other members. It was a philosophical difference. All of them were

conservatives, for sure, but in terms of international relations, those who have

served in the U.S. Government that you can see here or have served in the




50

previous campaign, including Mr. Gordon, their view on Russia was that it is a

hostile, especially some of them have worked during the Cold War, but then their

view was not that we need to go and confront it because that is not their level to

decide, versus the two individuals that you have mentioned, their view was that

relations could be fixed, and it is better to have better relations.

Q I want to move a little bit to the chronology of the campaign, and we

can come back as needed, but I just want to try to get through some of events you

have described and described in your written materials.

Did you attend the foreign policy speech at the Mayflower in April of 2016?

A I did so, sir.

Q Do you recall whether Ambassador Kislyak was in attendance?

A All right. Let me be clear here. Until the Cleveland University

meeting, I didn't know how he looked like physically, so at that meeting, at the

foreign policy speech, I learned later that he was there.

Let me be even more precise. I learned at the end of the meeting, well, the

Russia Ambassador was there and he was seated there, but I would not recognize

him. I didn't know he was the Ambassador. So, yes, to answer your question, I

learned towards the end of that meeting that the Russian ambassador was there.

Q And who did you, if anyone, do you recall seeing him interact with?

A At the hotel? At the --

Q At the Mayflower speech?

A Let me describe you what I saw. So we were seated -- this is front

row, second row, third row. The advisers were seated in the third row. We were

in that large auditorium, because J.D. was kind of organizing the media in the

back. The media was about 20 cameras and a lot of -- and then VIPs, local VIPs,




51

and we were in the front row of the VIPs, and then two rows that were reserved.

They were empty.

Then at one point, those rows were filled by people coming from the right.

I'm just giving you the details. So I recognized maybe one or two persons from

the National Interest Review, but I did not recognize that the Russian Ambassador

was in the front.

Rick Dearborn was in the front. I think Senator Sessions was in the front,

and then near the podium from the back came at least two persons I could

remember. One was Mr. Jared Kushner, he was there, came from the back, and

another individual, I cannot remember who it was. Then the Ambassador -- the

American Ambassador came, introduced Mr. Trump, then Mr. Trump came and

delivered his speech.

After he delivered his speech, the two front rows left, and we were left with

the media to deal with them. So that's the best description I can remember.

Q Right. And understanding that you didn't know who Ambassador

Kislyak was at that time, now that you -- once you later learned who he was and

what he looked like, do you recall him being -- do you recall seeing him there, or is

that only due to reporting?

A Let me say this: It is very difficult to make a statement, but I'll make

one. So once you see him in front of you or on TV, and you know who he was,

then your memory is going to tell you, well, he was in the front row. So I'm going

to tell you that my memory now tells me that it's very possible that he was one of

the persons in the front row, but I cannot confirm that. That would be using the

memory of after the event to go back and visit the event.

Q Understood. And when the front rows went wherever they went




52

after the speech, you did not join them; is that correct?

A No, I did not. I was tasked actually to stay one more hour dealing

with the media and the foundations.

Q Okay. Thank you. Moving on to the July -- your joint European

Parliament congressional meeting. You mentioned earlier that you attended -- in

your written materials you stated that Dr. Clovis responded very firmly and clearly

that there will be no abandonment of NATO or over our European allies and no

deal with President Putin at the expense of U.S.-European relations.

Did you perceive him to be, or did he state that he was articulating the

position of the Trump campaign when he made that statement?

A All right. I was seated here, and we had lawmakers here, then they

left, and then the delegation was -- the Trump foreign policy delegation was seated

there, and then all the Europeans were seated here. I want to paint a little bit how

the matter developed.

So the European lawmakers were asking very tough questions about the

Trump campaign views on NATO and on Russia, and their main points were: We

read a lot about the fact that your candidate is going to be closer to the Russians

and less close to NATO. To which Clovis responded what I have quoted here

that I can assure you, as someone who was in the U.S. military and who worked

during the Cold War and back in NATO, that our candidate and our campaign is

not going to do what you are saying it will do.

Now, having said that, do I have the knowledge of him expressing the high

level of the campaign narrative or not, I don't know, but he is higher than me. So

he had expressed exactly or maybe more than what I've quoted, but I have no way

to answer how high it was.




53

Q Right, but he was speaking as a campaign official or purporting to

make the -- articulated the position of the campaign rather than just his personal

views?

A Absolutely. He was -- I should say, yes, the best I can recollect, he

was speaking on behalf of the campaign. He told them: I'm speaking on behalf

of the campaign.

Q Now, Mr. Papadopoulos was also in attendance; is that right?

A Mr. Papadopoulos was, yes, seated next to Clovis.

Q Now, did he make any statements to the group about a Russia-U.S.

relations or U.S.-European relations regarding Russia that you recall?

A All right. He did not speak in public during the exchange, no words,

but I can report one thing is that he came to others. He was whispering his

assessment of the response, and he came to me and said: I don't think what

Clovis said represents exactly what the position should be. And I found it very

normal because he has been, you know, promoting a different view.

Q And so, as you've described, Mr. Papadopoulos, perhaps, had a

different view than the one that Dr. Clovis had articulated. Did you perceive or

have any reason to believe that Mr. Papadopoulos' view was that of anyone other

than himself?

A As far as I can remember it was his view, his opinion. I didn't hear it

from anyone else, as far as I can remember, except Mr. Page -- Dr. Page, but he

did not -- he was not as clear and dynamic as Mr. Papadopoulos.

Q So, also, in July, I believe, was the Republican National Convention

in Cleveland. Did you -- were you in Cleveland during the RNC?

A Yes, sir, I attended the whole conference -- convention.




54

Q And were you in Cleveland the week prior to the RNC during what's

known as "Platform Week"?

A The week before, I was in Washington, D.C.

Q Did you have any role in crafting the platform with respect to

Ukraine?

A First, physically, I was in Washington, D.C., so I wasn't at that

discussion, and I don't have the power to be there. I'm not a delegate in the

Republican party, so for all these questions together, I had zero role in crafting any

of the matter related to that platform.

But I've heard, of course, being part of a team, what is happening, who is

doing what. So I could say that I was aware of the general themes, and then, of

course, Mr. Gordon reported to us later the episodes that occurred.

Q And can you just briefly describe what you recall, particularly from

any verbal conversations that might not be reflected in email about the matter of

the platform with respect to Ukraine that's subsequently been the subject of so

much press reporting?

A Again and again, I'm going to try to go back to the raw information

that I've heard directly from Mr. Gordon, and then because of the layers and layers

of what was reported, I want to make sure that I report for the first role and then

later on the actual information.

Mr. Gordon was reporting to myself and Tera Dahl that he was tasked to go

ahead of all of us, and he was part of that discussion about the platform. He did

not delve into details, but he said we had an issue with the stipulation on Ukraine.

He had an issue. So we asked him what was that issue.

He said we had to change -- the language had to be changed maybe one or




55

two times until it settled to what it is now in the Republican platform, what it was

then when he spoke to us. And he mentioned that to us when we were at the

convention. He said: Oh, my goodness, what a headache, you know, we had all

these back and forth, and then it was settled.

Q Anything else you recall about that issue from the time, as opposed

to what you learned later?

A I don't recall anything other than that conversation that he had with

us about that specific issue of Ukraine.

Q Now, when you were at the convention, did you -- did you attend the

same event that Ambassador Kislyak also attended?

A I did.

Q And what was that?

A That was a panel organized by the State Department and the

Heritage Foundation. I don't have the actual date in front of me, but we could get

that date. It's publicized. Whereby there were two panels, one in the morning,

one in the afternoon, and a lunch at noon, and there were about, according to the

sources, there are 50 to more diplomats, including Ambassadors, and the Russian

Ambassador, accordingly, was there.

The panel of the morning included J.D. Gordon. Then there was a lunch

and a keynote speaker. That would be Senator Sessions. Then a lunch. Then

the afternoon panel, which I was part of and KT McFarland was part of, and the

gentleman from the Heritage Foundation was I think the moderator.

Q So it was a fairly large event panel. Did you have any direct

one-on-one interactions with Ambassador Kislyak?

A Oh, no. Let me explain, though, unless you have another question.




56

Q Yeah, I just -- I apologize. I mean, we can come back to it, but I just

wanted to get through a few things.

So you don't have any direct interactions?

A Face-to-face with the Ambassador?

Q Right.

A I don't recall, and we've been asked by CNN that someone else said

that you had a meeting, and I said I don't recall. And I had three persons with me

wherever I moved, and they don't recall. Now, he could have been behind me

speaking with somebody else and somebody must have imagined, because if I

meet an Ambassador, I will say I met an Ambassador. Actually, I took many

pictures with other Ambassadors.

Q Do you recall seeing any direct one-on-one interactions between

Ambassador Kislyak and any Trump campaign personnel?

A I did not see myself, but I heard that others have spoken to him. So

that's the difference between me seeing at the convention and what I've heard

later.

Q And who do you recall hearing?

A Mr. Gordon actually mentioned that he had a very social moment.

They were eating, I guess, and then he reported this to us.

Q Anyone other than Mr. Gordon?

A I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't want to say Carter Page also

mentioned that, but I have a blank. I don't recall who else.

Q So quickly, in the time I have remaining, we just have a few standard

questions that we pretty much ask everybody.

Did you personally collude, conspire, coordinate with the Russians to hack




57

or disseminate any emails?

A No, I did not, sir.

Q Did you personally conspire, collude, or coordinate with the Russians

to otherwise or in any way influence the outcome of the election?

A I did not.

Q Are you aware -- do you have any information that would

demonstrate that Candidate Trump colluded, coordinated, or conspired with the

Russians to hack or disseminate emails?

A I do not have such information.

Q Do you have any information that Candidate Trump colluded,

coordinated, or conspired with the Russians to otherwise influence the outcome of

the election?

A I don't have that information.

Q Do you have any information that anyone affiliated with the Trump

campaign, in whatever capacity, colluded, conspired, or coordinated with the

Russians to hack or disseminate emails?

A I don't have such information.

Q Do you have any information that anyone affiliated with the Trump

campaign, in whatever capacity, coordinated, colluded, or conspired with the

Russians to otherwise influence the outcome of the election?

A I don't have that information.

Q All right. That's all we have for this round. Would you like to take a

brief break?

A I'd be happy, if I can.

Q Thank you.




58

A Thank you.

[Recess.]

BY

Q All right. Thank you very much. I'm the for the

minority side. I'm going to take over the questioning over here.

I wanted to start, you mentioned that you first met Mr. Papadopoulos, if I'm

correct, at the meeting with then Candidate Trump on March 31st, but that you

also may have received emails from Mr. Papadopoulos.

And if I can submit to you and also for the record an email that was sent

from Mr. Papadopoulos on March 24th, 2016.


******** COMMITTEE INSERT ********




59

This would have been after March 21st when your name,

along with Mr. Papadopoulos' name was mentioned by Candidate Trump to the

Washington Post. That was on March 21st, 2016. And the meeting with then

Candidate Trump was on March 31st, 2016.

Is there a Bates number associated with that email?

Yes. The Bates number is DJTFP00010111, as well as the

next page, which is 112.

If I can point you to the second page?

MR. PHARES: I need glasses.

Do you have another extra copy for us as well?

Give me one second.

BY

Q If I can point you to the second page.

A Okay.

Q So the second page, which is written by Mr. Papadopoulos on

March 24, 2016, was written to several members of what appear to be the foreign

policy advisory team, including Carter Page, Sam Clovis, Keith Kellog, Berg

Mizusawa, Chuck Kubic, Joseph Schmitz, and then which I

believe is your email; is that correct?

A That's correct.

Q And Michael Glassner, and the title of email is: "Meeting with

Russian Leadership, including Putin."

And Mr. George Papadopoulos writes: "Good morning. I just finished a

very productive lunch with a good friend of mine. Joseph Mifsud, the director of




60

the London Academy of Diplomacy who introduced me to both Putin's

niece" -- here he's speaking about the Russian President, Vladimir Putin, and the

Russian Ambassador in London, who also acts as the deputy foreign minister.

The topic of the lunch was to arrange a meeting between us and the

Russian leadership to discuss U.S.-Russia ties under President Trump. They are

keen to host is in a quote "mutual" end quote city or directly in Moscow. They

said the leadership, including Putin, is ready to meet with us, and Mr. Trump

should be there -- or should there be interest. We need for everyone's thoughts in

moving forward with this very important issue.

"Furthermore, Mifsud is good friends with the soon-to-be next Prime

Minister of Vietnam. He asked for me to join him on a trip there to meet with the

next leader. Perhaps this is of interest to the rest of the campaign team as well."

So the first question I just have is, you mentioned that you may have

records in your own personal email from George Papadopoulos. Do you believe

this may be one of them?

A I do know this is one of them.

Q Okay.

A That's the one I was mentioning.

Q Okay. Very good. Very helpful. You mentioned that you'd be

willing to produce those to the committee.

A I would be willing to produce it to the committee.

Q Yes. Great. So it would be very helpful if there are -- this or any

other emails that would have been from or would have included on the "cc" line or

mentions Mr. Papadopoulos, or Carter Page, for that matter, would be very helpful

to have.




61

A Yes.

Q Thank you very much.

Now that you see this email, do you recall receiving and reading this email

at the time?

A Let me explain it, because I saw it -- I was planning on explaining

this email.

You know, on AOL, if you receive emails, they stay dark thick if you don't

open them, and they would become clear when you actually open them. This is

an email that I read way after I received it. So it was because we were receiving

emails and emails, and that was one among them, and there are others as well.

But when I went back and read it, I realized that he had sent it before, but of

course, now, I know that he had sent the email.

Q Do you know, roughly, when you would have read it and opened it

for the first time?

A It should have been within weeks, but I don't remember exactly

when.

Q But, presumably, after the meeting with the Candidate on March

31st?

A After March, yes.

Q And after your -- so that would also be after the lunch that you

mentioned after the meeting with the Candidate where you discussed --

A In the best of my recollection, it should have been because had I

read all that email before, of course I would have seen him in a different lens. But

these are all the best I can recollect, of course.

Q Okay. Did you -- do you recollect -- do you recall whether or not you




62

had any engagement with Mr. Papadopoulos after having read this email, and if

so, did it color in any way your views of Mr. Papadopoulos' role on the campaign,

why he was focused on Russia?

A Okay. To the best of how I remember, the first time I heard him

phonetically talking about Russia was at the March 31st. Then I started to read

this and other emails. And then when I heard him also after the meeting in that

restaurant, I started to have a perception of what is or what were his priorities.

Q How did that strike you?

A As I said earlier in the meeting, I realized that his priority was the file

of Russia, priority. I mean, you are a political scientist and you here somebody

talking about Malaysia four or five times, you know that he is -- he or she would be

interested in Malaysia. That's the example.

Q And I want to get to this period that you mentioned, the 2 weeks that

you were present as part of the foreign policy advisory team at the office in

Alexandria.

A Yes.

Q And then afterwards. But on the matter of Mr. Papadopoulos and

these emails, do you recall any conversations with other members of the foreign

policy advisory team who may have been on this email chain or were aware of the

email, how they perceived it, how it was discussed amongst them, whether it was

viewed as an asset or as a matter of concern?

A All the events between the moment we were appointed in the

Washington Post, all the way till about -- till about mid or late spring, we were

submitted to a river of emails and information and so many things to do, so I don't

have a recollection in terms of chronology. But what I have a recollection of is




63

that we were sitting, meeting in that executive office, a few of us, J.D., Tera Dahl,

and myself, and we were assessing who is doing what.

We had what we call chats. And when we came to the discussion about

Mr. Papadopoulos, at least the two of us, Gordon and myself, Tera was listening,

you know, sort of exchanged the point of view that Mr. Papadopoulos is really

interested in the Russia file -- Russia file in the sense Russia desk, Russia

relations.

And that was -- and during those 2 weeks where I served in that executive

office during those weeks.

Q And during that period, what was your perception of the role that Mr.

Papadopoulos was playing, was perhaps authorized to play on behalf of the

campaign?

A I was -- I remember now that I had a perception of what he wanted to

do. I had no information as to what he was doing or if he was in communication

with higher levels allowing him to do. That was not clear. But what was clear is

that this is what he was seeking to do.

Q And can you describe a bit more what you were seeing him do, or at

least what he was presenting to the campaign either through emails or in the

meetings as what his role could be and who he was talking to?

A If we put it under one umbrella, should it be emails, including this one

I read later, but other emails as well on private -- on the campaign server and the

little discussions we had with him -- that would be at that lunch meeting -- he was

focussing on the fact that he can -- he can -- he has connections and he could use

those connections to open a path between the campaign and Russia. So that's

his general attitude that he is the one who can do that.




64

Q And when you had these discussions or this one discussion that you

recall with Mr. Gordon about what various campaign surrogates were doing,

including Papadopoulos, do you recall whether or not you had read this particular

email, and did this email come up at all?

A The best of my recollection is that, by that time, I had been aware,

including reading this email and also hearing from others, that this is what Mr.

Papadopoulos is interested in, and Mr. Gordon smiled, meaning this is not what

Mr. Gordon was interested in, meaning -- I have to describe it the best we can

hear, that yes, yes, Mr. Papadopoulos wants to do that, but it's not taken seriously.

That's my impression at the time, but by the people at the meeting. I have no

knowledge of any other persons.

Q The reason I ask is because there's language in this email that is

very suggestive -- the reason I ask is because there's language in this email that is

very suggestive. A, it suggests that he has a clear conduit to the Russian

leadership, including possibly to the Russian President, and that he was meeting

to discuss specifically the meeting between -- a meeting between Mr. Trump and

Mr. Putin.

But as I understand from your testimony today, those facts were not

specifically discussed, did not raise -- were not specifically discussed as part of

conversations that either you had or that you were aware of, and therefore, you

may not be aware of any reaction to those very specific elements of that

correspondence.

A As far as I can recall, this email, the other emails, and whatever Mr.

Papadopoulos have said and we heard, as far as I can recall, I have not heard

from much higher levels anything to ask us about them or how do we evaluate this




65

except from Dr. Clovis.

When we met him and discussed that, my impression -- and this is not

really a recollection of words -- is that Dr. Clovis wanted Mr. Papadopoulos out of

his hair. This is an expression we could use. And the one -- the one name that

made, in that meeting that you mentioned, Gordon smile was Putin's niece. He

and Tera and I felt that he's a little bit exaggerating here when we discuss that.

1 minute.

BY

Q Okay.

Your discussion with Mr. Gordon and then with Dr. Clovis that you

mentioned, were those during that 2-week period where you were present in the

Alexandria office, or is this subsequent?

A The best of my recollection was during, but it was also after. I

mean, every time we would meet with Clovis, we'd go over a variety of issues, and

then -- and I don't have quantitatively how many times, but at every time the

Papadopoulos case was raised, both Clovis and J.D. would say: well, it's like

dismissive, to we don't need that now. That's what their attitude was, but I don't

remember the actual words that they have used, but that was my impression if

you're asking me about.

Q Okay. I have a line of questioning about your experience and what

you saw during your time in the office and what led you to leave the office, but

given the amount of time left, I yield back to the majority, and I'll pick it up after.

Thank you.

A Thank you.

BY




66

Q So we've talked about your time as a adviser during the campaign.

Did you have any role in the Trump transition?

A No, I did not have any role in the Trump transition, and the

administration, of course. My tenure ended on the morning of November 9.

Q And that was the morning after the election?

A The morning after the election.

Q Now, you did make reference to some events that took place in

December in what you provided to us, and so that's what I'd like to ask you about

now.

You mentioned a meeting in D.C. that you attended at the request of the

U.S.-Arab Business Council, which was also attended by two Russian diplomats.

Just to be clear, you were attending that meeting in your personal or some

capacity other than on behalf of the Trump transition; is that correct?

A Yes. I could explain, yes, and I could explain further, if you wish me

to.

Q Maybe we'll come back to it. But just the fact that you weren't

representing -- or your statement is pretty straightforward, I think, that you weren't

representing or otherwise acting on behalf of the Trump transition at this time?

A That's correct. I was representing himself as an expert.

Q And you mentioned there were two Russian diplomats who were

there?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did you have sort of direct interactions with them?

A I did have direct interaction. It was a lunch at the Four Seasons,

1:00 p.m., and it was at the invitation of the -- this NGO that I have just mentioned,




67

and at his request.

Q So you mentioned, in the written materials, that you discussed the

situation in Syria, and of course, this is -- Syria is the location where there is an

intersection between your expertise in the Middle East and U.S.-Russia relations,

since both the United States and Russia have been deeply involved in the conflict

in Syria.

I'm curious whether there was any discussion at this lunch of the, I believe

then pending and Egypt-sponsored UN resolution regarding Israeli settlement?

A At that meeting?

Q At that meeting.

A I don't have any recollection of that subject being discussed at that

meeting.

Q With the Russians or with anyone?

A With the Russians or the Arabs, that's true.

Q And you are a -- you have some expertise in Egypt; I believe traveled

there at some point during the campaign.

Did you have any role whatsoever in President-elect Trump's interactions

with the Egyptians regarding the December 2016 UN resolution on Israeli

settlements?

A From November 9 onward, to now, I have had no communications,

neither with the transition team, nor with the administration, except, within the

transition team, the media person, Bryan Lanza was in touch with us because we

were in a transition ourselves, the former advisers, he would tell us, for example,

that when you make those statements, although you are former advisers and you

are not in the transition, keep in mind, basically, that if you would be asked to




68

serve, keep in mind those statements won't be reflecting later on. But it had no

effect on my statements.

Q Thank you. And just to be clear, then, the answer is "no" to the

question of whether you had any interaction with or knowledge of the -- or

participation in or knowledge of the Trump campaign's interactions with Egypt -- or

Egyptian officials regard the UN resolution on Israeli settlements?

A I haven't had any interaction on that issue.

Q And in December of 2016, did you have any interactions of any kind

that you recall with General Flynn?

A In December of 2016, I had no, as far as I can remember, interaction

with General Flynn.

Q Now, you also provided us some copies or text versions of emails

concerning a potential meeting with the Ambassador to the United States from

Russia, Kislyak. The first one that you produced is dated December 13, and

reads: I write to you on behalf of Russian Ambassador to clarify the opportunity

to arrange a meeting between him and you.

Now, in English, "clarify" would usually give the implication that there had

been some prior communication on this topic. It seems that Mr. Shevchenko (ph),

who authored this email, may not be a native English speaker, so I don't want to

read too much into his particular word choice.

But before you got this email, had you had any prior discussion with Mr.

Shevchenko (ph) or anyone else about a meeting between you and the Russian

Ambassador Kislyak?

A This was the first email I received, first to my website, then to my

assistant's, and I had not had any meeting with either the Ambassador or any




69

diplomats of the mission in the United States during the campaign, and even

before the campaign.

And I -- since you mention the narrative, we reproduced the email as is, and

there is some English mistakes towards the end that we did not correct.

Q And Mr. Shevchenko's (ph) signature block indicates he's the first

secretary of the political section. At the time you got this email, did you have

any -- did you know who he was?

A At the time I received the email, I did not know who he was.

Q Had you ever met him, that you recall?

A So that's the first email. No, I did not meet with that person. I met

with the other persons, the attaches. No, I have not had any knowledge of him

before.

Q Right. Did you have any suspicion that he might not in fact be a

diplomat and might in fact be acting on behalf of the intelligence services?

A I did have such suspicion as far as I can remember.

Q And did the -- what you produced to us does not reflect a reply

directly to the December 13 email.

Did you, in fact, make such a reply, or did the reply come only after he

reached out to your assistant on the 19th?

A Can you clarify? I'm a little bit lost about the sequences.

Q So there's an email from Mr. Shevchenko (ph) to the email address

at your website on December 13. I guess I could first ask: When did you first

become aware of this email?

A I don't recall exactly when, but we became aware, and it was

forwarded to my assistant.




70

Q And then did you or anyone on your where behalf make any reply to

Mr. Shevchenko (ph) before there was a email from him to your assistant on the

19th?

A I don't recall, but I assume that she had answered him, and this is a

part of the conversation. Is that your question?

Q Well, I apologize if I'm not being clear.

A Please.

Q What you gave us -- and again, these are word reproductions, but is

an email from Mr. Shevchenko (ph) to you on December 13.

A To my website, yeah.

Q And then the next communication is an email from Mr. Shevchenko

(ph) addressing Rebecca (ph) on December 19th.

A Yes. Okay.

Q And so my question is: Between December 13th and 19th, was

there any reply or communication from either you or from Rebecca to Mr.

Shevchenko (ph)?

A I can certainly check with Rebecca (ph) if she had answered in

between those two dates. I don't have any recall myself that I have responded.

Q And the 19th includes -- the email on the 19th addressed to Rebecca

(ph) reflects: We're doing a request. This time it's to arrange a meeting between

you and Alexi Skosyrev, S-k-o-s-y-r-e-v. Had you ever meet Alexi before?

A I don't remember, the best of my remembrance, I had met with him.

Q And between December 19th and December 29th, did either you or

Rebecca (ph) make any reply or response to this offer?

A That, I can ask Rebecca (ph), because I am not aware of every detail




71

between her and him. What I asked her to reproduce is what did they want from

us, what did we tell them.

But if you want, I could go and ask her were there any other email between

the 19th and 29th; were there any other email between me and Rebecca (ph)

about it between the 19th and 29th, but I don't have it.




72

[1:27 p.m.]

BY

Q And these invitations, did you perceive them as being addressed to

you in your personal capacity or being addressed to you as a recent Trump

campaign adviser, someone who advised the now or then-President-elect?

A Now, that's assessment and not knowledge, because they never

mentioned this to me.

Q Right.

A The assessment is I am known to them because I am in the media

as an expert, so they know that I have posted, spoken, addressed the issue in

Syria and in Iraq and in the areas they're interested in.

And I assume -- this is only assessment -- that, of course, having served in

a Presidential campaign, though I left, I am still in the orbit. So I am just

assuming that for those two reasons they wanted to speak with me.

Q So it could have been both, as far as you know, both your academic

expertise and your recent role in the campaign?

A That's right.

Q The only reply in the last communication you provided to us is from

Rebecca (ph) to Mr. Shevchenko (ph), December 29th. It is a request to

postpone the meeting in light of the expulsion of Russian diplomats until you,

Dr. Phares, obtained clear guidance from the transition.

Can you speak to what interactions you had with the transition regarding

these potential meetings?

A It's going to be very simple: None. I actually did not reach out to

the transition to ask. And I told her, we don't want to continue on this path.




73

Because I thought if there would be later on anybody reaching out to me, then I

will talk about it. But I preferred that we're not going to engage in neither any

meeting nor engaging with anybody at this point in time.

Q Right. So the postpone -- so her statement that you'd postponed

the meeting to obtain guidance from the transition, was that her understanding of

what was going to happen, or was that an excuse to sort of get out of the meeting?

A That was an excuse to get out of the meeting, as far as I can

remember, because I had a conversation with her. And without her telling them,

no, we don't want or anything negative, tell her we postpone but we're not going to

have a meeting.

Q Right.

A To the best of my recollection.

Q So that excuse or that reason for her -- for postponing, that you

needed to obtain guidance from the transition, that was your idea that you

instructed her to make that response?

A It was my idea, yes, sir.

Q Now, the email, it begins, "I'm so sorry to hear about the expulsion of

your diplomats today."

Reading that without context, are you saying that -- should we take that as

you disagreed with the outgoing Obama administration's decision to expel the

diplomats, or you were just trying to be courteous and professional?

A The best I can answer you, but it's clear in my mind, that that

instruction, she did it, because he was pounding and calling and pounding. So

she got the instruction from me that I don't want delay, I don't want. So she

crafted that matter.




74

Q So the statement, "I'm so sorry to hear about the expulsion of your

diplomats today," was something she developed on her own initiative rather than a

statement or a sentiment that you directed her to convey?

A Yes, clearly.

Q Is that also true for the statement, "It is my fervent hope that tensions

between our two nations will relax after January 20th"?

A That's correct. That's Rebecca's (ph) statement and email. And I

was actually not very comfortable with it, but she had the discretion to delay and

delay, so she used that terminology.

Time.

Thank you.

MR. PHARES: Thank you.

Do you need to take a break, or are you okay to keep going?

MR. PHARES: I am good. I am good.

BY

Q Thank you.

I just actually would like first to circle back to Mr. Papadopoulos very quickly

just so I exhaust those questions and we can move forward.

Were you able to read the guilty plea that Mr. Papadopoulos pled to and

was filed with the District Court for the District of Columbia in October of 2017?

A I read portions of it. If you need me to comment on any specific, I'll

be happy to read.

Q Sure. Let me read an excerpt very briefly. And the questions

relate to your potential knowledge about that information, but also any knowledge

you may have had from hearing or discussing with others on the campaign.




75

So paragraph 14 of this statement of the offense reads that on or about

April 26, 2016, Defendant Papadopoulos met the professor -- the professor has

been later identified to be Joseph Mifsud, who was referenced in the earlier email

that you received on March 31st of 2016 -- for breakfast at a London hotel.

During this meeting, the professor told Defendant Papadopoulos that he

had just returned from a trip to Moscow where he had met with high-level Russian

Government officials.

The professor told Defendant Papadopoulos that on that trip he, the

professor, learned that the Russians had obtained, quote, dirt, unquote, on

then-candidate Clinton.

The professor told Defendant Papadopoulos, as Defendant Papadopoulos

later described to the FBI, that, quote, they -- and he meant the Russians -- have

dirt on her, end quote, her being Hillary Clinton. Quote, the Russians had emails

of Clinton, end quote. And the last quote is, they have thousands of emails, end

quote.

Listening to this now or if you read it prior, do you recall becoming aware of

any information that could be similar to what Mr. Papadopoulos has pled guilty to

in the course of your time on the campaign, from your conversations since leaving

the campaign, but with individuals that may have been associated with the

campaign?

A The best I can recollect was that Papadopoulos was firmly

pressuring Dr. Clovis to either allow him to go to Russia and other places or have

him go with other advisers. And I was even, I think, mentioned in -- by Clovis.

He'd asked me, how about going with Mr. Papadopoulos on trips? My view was

not Russia. It was Egypt or Israel or Cyprus. And then I told Clovis, I have no




76

interest in that trip.

Q Why was that?

A Because of my perception of Mr. Papadopoulos. Now we know, of

course, this happened 1 year later, but I was not comfortable, first of all, to go to

Russia because of what I've explained. My position is, I'm not going to be

welcome in Russia.

Second is, I didn't know what kind of relations he had with Israel, with

Egypt, with Cyprus. And when I'm not aware and I don't know what it is and I

cannot confirm, I don't go. I don't engage.

Now, the issue of the emails, obviously, I learned about it from when the

investigation started. And I tried to recall in any meeting or even emails that the

campaign had or members of the campaign, if I can recall him mentioning either

dirt or email. My memory doesn't tell me that I recall any of that package of

emails and dirt.

Q So this would include conversations that may have happened during

your time prior to the election as well as any conversations you have had since?

A I'm trying to remember if -- when the Papadopoulos issue started to

be in the media, then, of course, I started to learn more and we started to ask

around. But we did not get more than what the statement -- this statement and

the media has uncovered. I don't recall. I don't recall this --

Q But even following the publication of this statement of the offense

and any conversations you may have had, to your --

A With members of the campaign?

Q Right. To your knowledge, have you spoken to anybody that may

have evinced prior knowledge of the information that's in here?




77

A I don't recall I've had any conversation focusing on the email or any

related matters that you have mentioned.

Q Okay. On the issue of his trips and Mr. Clovis' offer or attempt to

get others, including possibly you, to join him on trips, was it your understanding at

the time that Mr. Clovis and potentially others on the campaign were aware that he

was traveling to various or seeking to travel to various places in his capacity as a

campaign surrogate?

A To the best of my recollection from conversations I had with

Dr. Clovis, the general attitude -- because that attitude is important to determine

the conversation. He felt that Mr. Papadopoulos was doing things beyond what

he, Dr. Clovis, or the campaign wanted to do. He was too active in that direction.

And I use a term that Dr. Clovis may have -- not may, has

mentioned -- which is out of my hair.

So when I read the emails, the emails look formal, but what is behind the

emails in my conversation with Clovis is we don't want that. But in his emails, he,

as far as I can remember, okay, go plan whatever you want and let me know.

But I don't think, from what I know, and I don't know everything, that he told

him, George, go, organize, come back, and I'll green light you. That's not what I

understood. I understood that, okay, go and see what you want to do, but tell me.

Q So I'm trying to reconcile that impression that you had with the

conversation you mentioned where Mr. Clovis sought your assistance in joining

Mr. Papadopoulos on international trips.

A Yes.

Q It would suggest that if Mr. Clovis was seeking out other campaign

surrogates to join Mr. Papadopoulos rather than telling Mr. Papadopoulos outright,




78

"You are not to travel on behalf of the campaign or act as a surrogate on the

campaign," that there was knowledge of his travels and a degree of at least

acquiescence to Mr. Papadopoulos' activity internationally.

And when you compare that with the public record of Mr. Papadopoulos

traveling to Israel, for example, and speaking publicly, at least the appearance of

speaking publicly on behalf of the campaign and being quoted in local press on

behalf of the campaign, we're just trying to understand and reconcile the email

threads that we've seen, but also the public record of what actually occurred.

A I fully understand what you're trying to understand. I'm going to do

my best to explain the part where I heard and engaged. Because what I cannot

help with is -- are the conversations between Dr. Clovis and Mr. Papadopoulos.

Where I cannot help with is what -- when Mr. Papadopoulos eventually got

connected to New York. And that's another chapter that I learned about in

September, that he was active with Mr. Bannon on Egypt. So for all these

6 months, I had no idea that he was actually even connected.

So to answer with focus, my conversations with Dr. Clovis was that

Dr. Clovis was bothered by these multiple requests. What did he tell

Papadopoulos, I don't know what did he tell.

The emails I saw, on the face of them, yes, go prepare a trip or let me know

before you go to prepare a trip, could be read in two different ways. It's

instructions to go prepare, or it's, give me a break, go prepare and then we'll tell

you no.

I am, I think, from what I know and I heard from Dr. Clovis, I think it's B, B,

that he was not interested but he would tell him to go prepare. And I understand

when you mentioned that he could have told him no. He could have. I don't




79

know why he did not tell him firmly no.

Q And if I can just pick up on your mention about Mr. Papadopoulos'

activity with Steve Bannon in New York on Egypt, and apologies if I wasn't here for

that portion of your earlier testimony, what timeframe was it that you learned of

this?

A In September. It should have been in the month of

September 2016.

Q And this was during the United Nations General Assembly?

A Probably towards the end. Probably. I'm trying to recollect the best

I can.

Q And this was communications or activity or engagement between

Mr. Papadopoulos and Mr. Bannon that preceded September?

A That preceded the meeting between the candidate and Egyptian

President.

Q Which was on the margins of the U.N. General Assembly?

A Yes. When President Sisi came, he met with Clinton and met with

Trump. There was a whole effort that I've heard about later to prepare that

meeting, the same way when he prepared the meeting -- they prepared the

meeting with the Mexican President. So there was that effort.

What I didn't know at the time is that the team that was actually preparing

the minutia of the meeting were Mr. Bannon and Papadopoulos. I haven't heard

about Papadopoulos for many months, not what he was doing.

Q And how did you hear this?

A From the Egyptians.

Q From the Egyptians?




80

A From the Egyptian diplomats.

Q And can you share with us, to the extent that you're aware, what that

preparation meant in practice? So was there travel involved, phone calls,

meetings, papers produced that you may have learned about?

A The best of my recollection was that I spoke with a diplomat of the

Egyptian Embassy, with whom I will speak all the time and even from before the

campaign, and I asked him, how did that happen? How did the -- by curiosity.

So he said, well, Mr. Bannon and Mr. Papadopoulos traveled from New York to

Washington to the embassy, and they set all the details for such a meeting.

Q And this would have been in the weeks or a week or so -- I don't

know if you know the timeframe -- prior to the meeting?

A It should have been logically, because if they came to prepare for the

summit for that meeting, it should have been before.

Q And in learning of that, did you speak to anybody about that on the

campaign after the fact?

A I don't recall I spoke to anybody except one person, that's Tera Dahl.

Q Okay. After learning of that, did you learn of any other information

about Mr. Papadopoulos' role in potentially other meetings or on the campaign

more broadly during that period? So if I understand your testimony correctly,

there was a period until September where he may have dropped off at least your

radar screen?

A My radar.

Q He then comes back again on your radar screen through this

information you received from the Egyptians. After that, but prior to the election,

were you aware of any other role that he played or communications he had?




81

A To the best of my recollection -- and let's keep in mind that it was so

intense, we were under the pressure of a lot of information coming in -- I don't

recall who informed me, but what I've learned is that he was in connection with

Mr. Bannon to work on Orthodox communities in America.

Q You mean Orthodox Christian?

A Christian Orthodox communities.

Q Any idea what that means in practice?

A It -- that's -- now, I'm explaining, so --

Q No. No. Or what it meant in practice.

A Oh.

Q Like, what was this proposal? If you could flesh out, to the extent

that you're aware?

A Well, the one sentence that I've learned was something like, not

exactly the words, that George now is working with New York traveling to the

inlands, to various places, to --

Q You mean within the United States?

A Within the United States, hinterland, to work with or on American

Orthodox. What would that mean, American Orthodox? Greeks, Slavs, Arab

Orthodox, from these communities, for their votes.

One minute.

BY

Q For a get-out-the-vote campaign of some kind?

A That's correct.

Q Anything else that you became aware of regarding

Mr. Papadopoulos' relationship with those in New York, specific individuals beyond




82

Mr. Bannon he may have been in touch with?

A I don't have any information or recollection of anything beyond what I

have mentioned.

Q Okay. Are you aware or were you aware of any other trips that

Mr. Papadopoulos made during his tenure -- or prior to the election of 2016, I

should say? I mentioned, for example, press reports indicate he traveled to

Israel.

A The same information that was published and then discussed among

Gordon, Tera Dahl, and myself, that's the extent of what I've learned about his

trips.

Q Okay. And anything about his relationship with Mr. Flynn? Were

you told that he may be in touch with or conversed with Mr. Flynn?

A At this point, I don't recall any information about Mr. Papadopoulos'

interaction with General Flynn.

Q During the entire tenure until the end of the election?

A Yeah, throughout the entire.

Now, if I am shown, let's say, a group email where he mentioned I didn't

pay attention, I could confirm or infirm (ph). But my memory doesn't tell me any

matter about this issue.

Q Thank you for your help.

A Well, thank you.

BY

Q Thank you, Dr. Phares. Again, my name is I'm

counsel with the majority side.

I notice in your written statement you said, quote, "I do not presently recall




83

having met with or talked to persons I knew to be Russian officials, agents, or

nationals with respect to activities occurring between January 1st, 2014, and

November 8th, 2016, in connection with my involvement in the Trump Presidential

campaign."

You also say later in that statement, quote, "My work on the campaign was

precisely to field contacts from foreigners," end quote.

A From, sorry?

Q From foreigners.

A Yes.

Q You testified earlier, I believe, that you didn't know Ambassador

Kislyak was at the Mayflower Hotel meeting until the end of that meeting when

someone mentioned that.

I believe you also testified in your statement that you shook hands with the

Ukrainian Ambassador to the U.S. during the RNC Convention in Cleveland,

correct?


Q What other foreigners did you -- from whom did you field contacts?

A Where and when?

Q During -- from your period here you said -- let's take it from the

moment you became affiliated with the campaign, so March -- third week of

March 2016 until November 9th.

A That will be a long list. If we can take the map I could go --

Q And I'm just looking for countries, you know, names, to the extent

you -- I mean, I'm not expecting a full --

A No. No. No. Of course. I'll just give you the -- and then if you




84

want the menu --

Q Yes.

A -- I could go and back.

So from this hemisphere: Colombia, Argentina, ambassador, ambassador,

deputy foreign minister of Argentina. Moving to Europe: Spain, Britain, France,

Denmark, Norway, Italy, and then Czech Republic, Estonia.

And I'm mentioning here, but, of course, when I went to Europe there were

dozens of members of Parliament.

Q Of course.

A So pretty much a large number of European Parliament. And I'm

the co-secretary general of a legislative organization that has members from 27,

so it would be a very exhaustive list.

Q And would you classify each of those contacts you just laid out as in

your role as an adviser to the campaign?

A I want to make a distinction here. Thank you for the question.

Q By all means.

A As a secretary general of the transatlantic group, it is my mission to

engage with all these lawmakers. But there were some diplomats that we can get

a list from, my assistant, who made a request to meet me as a foreign policy

adviser but in the United States.

And, for example, diplomats from South Korea, from Taiwan, from Japan,

from Tunisia, during the campaign made an appointment with me to speak to me

as a foreign policy adviser in Washington, D.C. So I could get you the list of

those who requested that meeting.

And then I could get you the most comprehensive list with whom I




85

interacted. That would also include Tunisians, Egyptians, all the

way -- Bangladeshi, Indonesia. So it is a comprehensive list.

Q I was going to say, I tried to keep count in my head as you were

going through, and I lost count pretty quickly.

A My head -- that is why I am so tired, I always feel so tired because of

all these --

Q Early mornings and late nights?

A That's right, sir.

Q Okay. That's all I have, so I will yield.

A Thank you, sir.

BY

Q Thank you.

So I think we've covered any knowledge you may have had about

Papadopoulos' international trips and contacts with campaign officials, including

Mr. Bannon. Anything else that you may recall on those two subjects?

I ask in light of what you mentioned about Mr. Clovis seeking to have

campaign surrogates join Mr. Papadopoulos. Are you aware of any other --

A Other surrogates?

Q -- any other surrogates that may have joined him on some trips?

A Any other surrogates joining him on some trips, I don't recall. And I

don't remember if I even knew then if -- you know, meaning going with George to

those places.

As far as Mr. Papadopoulos speaking to other advisers or surrogates about

his plans, I don't have direct information, but I surmise that he must have spoken




86

with many people.

Q Any idea who he may have been a frequent or relatively frequent

communicator with on the campaign? So as you mentioned -- you mentioned the

possibility that he was speaking to other surrogates.

A I can, to answer this question, I could go back and say that I was

aware that he spoke with Dr. Clovis. Dr. Clovis spoke to me about his

conversations with him. I was aware that J.D. Gordon spoke with him.

And during those luncheons that the group had, he was speaking to all of

the members who were around the table. And then at the meeting in Congress

he was silent. He was pretty much silent. Though after the meeting was over,

when I was dealing with officials, I saw him speaking to -- or trying to speak to

other people.

Q And when was this meeting?

A In my report -- I don't have a copy of my report, but it should be -- it's

the July 14 or 15 meeting in Congress between the members of the EU Parliament

and the Members of the U.S. Congress and other NGOs.

Q It says in your submission July 12th, 2016?

A Yes, July 12th, as far as I can remember.

Q Do you recall any interaction between him and Mr. Carter Page?

A As far as I can recall -- though it must be a little bit peculiar answer

because both are said to have that same interest -- I don't recall either seeing

them or hearing what they were discussing.

Q Okay. If I can go back to the foreign policy adviser team in

Alexandria.

A Yes. Uh-huh.




87

Q Can you describe the 2-week period that you mentioned where you

were physically located? Who was in the office? How was it structured? What

was the purpose of the work? And then, ultimately, why did you end up leaving

that office or doing your work from elsewhere, however you want to characterize

it?

A Okay. So to the best of my recollection, I got two conversations

about joining this office. The direct conversation I had was with J.D. Gordon, who

seemed to be somewhat tasked by -- he didn't tell me who -- but tasked by some

authority to form that team and to invite us to go there. So that was one

conversation.

The other conversation, which was very brief, was Mr. Jared Kushner,

because I conversed with him on the phone. And he had even told me before

Mr. Gordon that there is going to be an office. We're thinking about having an

office in Washington. Why don't you join that office? Because I was making my

activities from my own office.

So these were the two requests or the two connections for me to head to

the office. So I made a decision, okay, let me try to see what would that be to

work in an office, organized office.

So I went there. The office, first of all, had codes and had cards, not

everybody could go in, how do you call them, the security cards, and they were

only given to individuals who were authorized. Which means out of this whole

group, only Mr. Gordon and myself had the cards to go in. The other members

were not allowed to go in.

Then there were the staff. The staff was, on the top, Rick Dearborn; below

him, John Mashburn; and then below the two of them, one line was J.D., one line




88

was me, and then another line -- two lines with a gentleman who dealt with

congressional liaison, and one person was assigned the outreach to communities

for purpose of election, but ethnic communities.

So I went there, and Mr. Dearborn requested they're going to be there, that

we need to be there from 9 to 5 everyday. So I attended. What did we do in that

office? Basically we got one morning meeting with Mr. Dearborn where he will

talk about the campaign, and then he will assign J.D. and Mashburn tasks to do.

And then J.D. and I and Tera will meet to see where we are in terms of foreign

policy and outreach. And that was for the 2 weeks.

Now, I have a large network of outreach to media. It's my work, both

international and national. I asked Rick Dearborn, is there any conflict between

me outreaching to media and me being in that office? He said, yes, there is a

conflict, but let me ask how we're going to resolve that conflict. And I told him, it

needs to be resolved because my income comes from the media, and I

am -- that's -- that's why I am in the campaign, because I can speak to the media.

So we went back and forth, back and forth until the moment where he said,

it's going to be difficult. If you want to do media, we can't -- you can't be in an

executive branch here -- executive office. So I told him, thank you. I gave him

my pass, and I left.

Q And how did that affect the surrogacy work that you did for the

campaign?

A I am still trying to figure it out now, but to the best of my recollection,

when I was within the office, the communication with the leadership in New York

was easier. I was part of that chain of command or communications.

When I left the office, that communication ceased. So I kept my initial




89

communications directly with New York when needed and directly with

J.D. Gordon to inform me about -- the same way he informed the other advisers.

I was pretty much on my own in my office.

Q And during that time period, could you describe to us the

constellation of individuals who were part of the core nucleus in New York?

A When I was in that office?

Q Yeah. You mentioned there were direct communications to

New York?

A To the best of my recollection, it's Rick Dearborn who was really the

guy who controlled the office. He was the only one who wanted to be and was in

communication with New York, not the other individual. It was pretty tight.

So he was in touch in New York principally with Steven Miller, the

speechwriter. It was the most back and forth. And sometimes Mr. Miller would

send a group email including Rick Dearborn and all of us on contents, not on

operational matters. For example, he will send us a request, what do you think

we should include in a statement on this or other subject?

Then there were other names that I don't remember from New York. Then

there was also Hope Hicks. She was part of that hierarchy. And at one

point -- multiple points -- Mr. Dearborn was in touch with Mr. Manafort when he

was the co -- the manager or the executive director of the campaign.

Q Okay. Very helpful.

If I can go back to the preparations for the meeting with the Egyptian

President --

A Yes.

Q -- in September. I'd like to produce as an exhibit an email exchange




90

that ultimately included Jared Kushner, Mike Flynn, Steve Bannon, but it originates

from an email from you.

A Oh.


******** INSERT 3-1 ********




91

BY

Q And let me read the Bates number. It's DJTFP00023871.

A Thank you.

Q You can read it in reverse order.

A Like this? Okay. Reverse order.

Q Yes, from the last two pages.

A Okay.

Q So this is an email from you to Ivanka on September 18, 2016.

A Uh-huh.

Q I'm going to read a few excerpts from it.

A Yes.

Q You write, "Just to inform you" -- "you" being Ivanka -- "that I" -- "I"

being Walid Phares -- "traveled to Egypt last week, worked with them on the

meeting between President Sisi and your father (as I mentioned to you weeks

ago), then coordinated with General Flynn for him to coordinate in New York.

Great that the meeting will take place tomorrow. This is a major victory in foreign

policy. It will generate more votes."

The next paragraph deals with a potential meeting that you explore with the

Argentinean President Macri.

Was it in your conversations with the Egyptians in Egypt that you became

aware of a separate, what appears to be a separate preparatory track between

Mr. Bannon and Mr. Papadopoulos, or was it here in Washington that you learned

of this?

A To the best of my recollection, it was here in Washington. And it




92

was after --

Q Subsequent to your trip to Egypt?

A Subsequent to my trip, yes, sir.

Q So just so we understand the exact timeline of events, you traveled

to Egypt. Was this on behalf of the campaign? On your own? Was there a

request to set up this meeting with the Egyptian President?

A So let me give you the chain. That could help us probably, if that's

helpful.

Q Please.

A So in September I traveled to Egypt. I was supposed to travel in

July, but in July I was in Europe. And I wanted -- it was initiated by me -- to meet

with the Minister of Religious Affairs -- it was published actually -- and the Deputy

Pope of the Copts, and to get information about the ideological,

counterradicalization, counterextremism. It was not on behalf of the campaign.

The only person who had to know was Dr. Clovis.

So I went there, not knowing what was happening actually here. While

there, I was informed by Egyptian officials -- of course, they know me because I've

traveled the year before, et cetera -- that there is something in preparation, but I

was asked, we're not sure about when this is going to happen and -- sorry.

Q Please.

A -- and if you can contact anybody in the campaign just to ensure that

this meeting is happening, et cetera, et cetera.

So I left Egypt. Back -- on the way back to London I had a seminar in

London. I communicated with General Flynn. I couldn't communicate with

anybody else at the beginning. And I tried to communicate with Bannon through




93

Tera Dahl -- now I remember those two -- telling them that the Egyptians are

telling me that they don't know even where and how the meeting is going to take

place.

This explains what I was trying to tell Ivanka, but not the best way you could

explain. I was telling Ivanka, oh, I met with them and et cetera. But what had

happened in reality is that they told me that the meeting will take place, we don't

have information.

So I communicated with Flynn, and Flynn told me, okay, I'll talk with the

team. I'll talk with the team. And from there on, he took it, he and Bannon and

everybody else, so I was not following up.

Q And you returned to Washington, D.C.?

A I did, yes.

Q And had conversations about -- with the Egyptian mission here, I

presume, where it was disclosed to you by them that, in fact, Mr. Bannon and

Mr. Papadopoulos were involved in coordinating this meeting? Is that correct?

A Let me clarify a little bit. I will consult my memoir, my memory.

I am not sure if the Egyptians in Washington -- I mean, in the

States -- informed me about the fact that there was another track actually working

on it, if it was before the meeting between the two principals or after that. That I

am not sure.

But what happened is that I was in touch with the Egyptian diplomats who

are my friends here, and they told me everything is being taken care of, we are in

touch with everybody in New York.

So there was that lapse of a time where between the embassy here and the

government there, when they met me and said we don't have any information, I




94

told them I'm not here on an official mission, but I can make that phone call and

email to Flynn and the rest.

One minute,

BY

Q And in your conversation with Mr. Flynn, was there any indication

that Mr. Flynn was aware of Mr. Papadopoulos' role?

A That's a good question, if I may say, because to the best of my

understanding, until now I don't know who was communicating with who in

New York because I haven't been to New York to their headquarters.

But now I can connect, like you would be able to, that my conversation with

Flynn was general -- they're coming, they're upset, they don't know anything, what

can you do? And he said, I'll take it from here with the team.

What that meant, and I learned it from Tera Dahl later, is that they spoke

about it among themselves. And that would include probably Flynn and Bannon.

That's time.

Okay. We'll continue this after. Thank you.

Do you need a break or anything?

MR. PHARES: I am good so far, unless you need a break.

I am good.

Fifteen more minutes.

BY

Q So the rest of this email that we were discussing until now, there is a

chain of emails that begins with Ivanka Trump, the person who you addressed,

forwarding your email to her husband --

A Uh-huh.




95

Q -- Jared Kushner.

A Can you tell me just where is that? What page?

Q So this would be -- if you see on the second-to-last page, there is an

email from Ivanka Trump --

A Yeah.

Q -- on Monday September 19th.

It's on 23857.

BY

Q Yeah, 23875.

A Oh, 75. Okay, yeah.

Q Then if you go to the page preceding that, 23874, there's an email

from Jared Kushner to Rick Dearborn, cc'ing three people, Steve Bannon, David

Bossie, and Mike Flynn.

And Mr. Kushner says, "Rick -- we need to shut this guy down." This guy

being you.

A Uh-huh.

Q "I don't know why he is running around the world and meeting with

world leaders on our behalf. I am told he doesn't check out that well and this

could hurt us. He is good on TV. This is dangerous and misleading to outside

countries. DJT has been clear that he wants a limited pool of people meeting with

limited foreign governments.

"General Flynn -- happy to give you the intel I have gotten live, but I have

heard that him calling around on our behalf has scared off several countries."

Steve Bannon, who you mentioned was perhaps already engaged with the

Egyptians on a separate track --




96

A Now this is your question? Now you're --

Q No. No. Now -- yeah. I'm going to the -- I'm just walking through

the emails.

A Okay.

Q So 23874, the same page.

A Okay.

Q If you just go up a tiny bit you'll see Steve Bannon responding. He

says, "Agree 1000 percent."

And then you have to go to the preceding page, and you have to keep

going to the preceding page before that.

Mr. Mike Flynn writes, "Shut him down. He is not a good spokesperson

and he should not speak as though he is talking for DT." DT being Trump.

"Completely agree."

And then right above that, Mr. Kushner writes, "Rick," addressing Rick

Dearborn, "I would explain that he is an advisor and not a diplomatic and we would

appreciate him keeping you abreast of his communications before he has them

and get approval before speaking with foreign governments or their

representatives."

Rick Dearborn, right above that, responds and says, "I can reach out to him

and deliver that message. He left on good terms."

And then if you go to the preceding page, this would be 23871, Mike Flynn

writes, "Rick, jumping in here again. Thank him and let him know the team in

New York City will handle all the diplomatic contacts unless otherwise directed.

He means well, but he clearly needs to keep things much more discreet."

Jared Kushner then writes, this is all on September 19th, 2016, "Spoke with




97

Walid and he is okay now."

In light of this chain, there are a few questions I have for you.

A Yes.

Q One question is, reading the email that is on page 23874 from Jared

Kushner after being forwarded your correspondence with Ivanka Trump suggests

that there has been clear direction from Donald Trump himself that, quote, "He

wants a limited pool of people meeting with limited foreign governments," period.

Were you ever made aware of that direction from then-candidate Donald

Trump?

A At what time in the campaign are we talking about? In September?

Q So this is in September.

A Right.

Q Purely based on this information, were you ever made aware during

any time in your tenure of a direction coming straight from the candidate,

Mr. Trump, as to who could travel abroad and who could meet with foreign

governments?

A In answering this question, to the best of my assessment, first of all,

there are some emails that I have not seen before --

Q Understood.

A -- that I am seeing now.

Q Yes.

A They were two conversations about the subject, but I have not

received any written or direct communication, neither by candidate Trump or below

him, about what should I do and I can do and not.

So in the first few months, we're talking March till about July, I would




98

actually meet and speak and go on TV. And there is one quote here, "He is good

on TV," but not go beyond that.

Q Understood.

A Okay. Then I had two conversations, one was with Mr. Jared

Kushner at one point in July where -- July or maybe end of June or July, I don't

recall, before the convention -- where he said, when you speak with diplomats, do

not commit -- do not commit on behalf of the campaign.

And I told him, I have a long experience, and I've met with diplomats before

even the campaign. When I meet with them, it's basically to explain what the

agenda is, what the platform is, and explain it via TV and then when they request

to meet with me and they asked me specifically about one, two, three, I respond.

I do not commit with them and discuss future matters. And he was okay.

Then a second wave came in September, and now I see the disconnected

information that I did not have. What they didn't know was that I was not going on

behalf of the campaign. And you can read from the email that some governments

or some diplomats told them, oh, what is Walid Phares saying?

It means those governments or those diplomats or maybe people who may

dislike me told them, Phares is speaking on your behalf. And I was very strict in

my discourse that I'm not speaking on any behalf. Actually I published posts

about my trips saying this is private, this is not on behalf.

So probably -- I don't understand how that happened. Flynn reported to

Jared and Ivanka reported to Jared, so Jared called me.

Q And that is the phone call that appears --

A At the end.

Q -- Mr. Kushner appears to acknowledge --




99

A Yes.

Q -- in the -- on September 19th at 9:09 a.m.?

A Enigma resolved.

Q Okay. But going back to that one statement that is in the email from

Jared Kushner to a small circle that includes Steve Bannon and Mike Flynn about

the direction from then-candidate Trump, to clarify, you were not aware, other than

what Mr. Kushner told you, of direction coming straight from Mr. Trump with regard

to who can represent and meet with foreign governments on behalf of the

campaign?

And the reason we ask is because it is -- it leads to an open question as to

whether or not Mr. Papadopoulos, in engaging in this parallel track with the

Egyptians at the same time or around the same time that you happened to be in

Egypt and heard from the Egyptians, may have been part of this group that is

authorized, either directly or authorized by virtue of being with Mr. Bannon, who

may have been authorized to do so.

A Thank you for the question. To the best of my understanding, now

that you added that information that I can connect with other information that I

had -- I mean, had I not read this, I couldn't have been able to answer the way I

can.

But still, already in the summer after the convention, even putting this aside,

I knew that I was not -- and I released this to the Senate, by the way, just to make

this clear -- I was not part of the New York policy team that made those

communications.

So I reserved myself to media, which they seemed to be very happy with.

Contact with diplomats I did not initiate. Basically I was asked to come and




100

explain. The only time I initiated in Egypt was not about the campaign. I wanted

to discuss with the religious leader of Egypt how can we make the distinction

between extremism and other stuff.

So my answer to you is, I've heard from Mr. Kushner that the candidate,

Mr. Trump, doesn't want us, including me perhaps, to meet with governments and

then promise and then engage. That I've already known.

He emphasized in September, I know now why most likely, because of two

things. Number one, I went to Egypt. The Egyptians asked me. It reverberated

back to Bannon. And I spoke with Flynn. So they got together and they said,

what is Walid Phares doing there? One.

Two, there is another reason that Mr. Kushner mentioned, and I understand

that, is that not knowing that this was happening, I asked Ivanka if she likes the

idea of her going to the Middle East and meeting with women, with Muslim

women, because the image of our candidate was very negative, et cetera.

So she told him and he -- then that prompted the call. And he insisted,

Dr. Phares, you know, do not speak on behalf of the campaign. And I told him I

was not, I explained to him what was happening, and I won't.

Q Okay. Thank you.

We talked at length about Mr. Papadopoulos. And apologies if this was

covered, but I just want to make sure that we leave nothing on the table.

Can you describe, to the extent that you are aware, your knowledge of

Carter Page's activities and travel? Because, as has been publicly reported,

Carter Page traveled to Moscow during the campaign period, spoke at a university

publicly.

In testimony to this committee that has been released publicly, he




101

acknowledged having interactions, at least, with various high-level individuals, and

then he put it in writing. And those, what is in the transcript that is public, has the

information of what he played.

To the extent that either you directly or through your conversations with

Tera Dahl, with Sam Clovis, with J.D. Gordon, others, to what extent were you

aware of what Mr. Carter Page was doing, where he was going, and how that was

being perceived?

A To the best of my recollection assessment, because now going back

in history I'll have to take into account what I knew then and what I know

now -- famous saying -- when Carter Page spoke to us in general or even in that

happy hour lunch after the meeting with the group, he didn't communicate with me

what he was actually doing in details.

Half of his conversation with me was to criticize the other camp, call it

ranting, call it what.

Q Yeah.

A And he was -- I mean, the content of what he was talking about was

intellectual. I mean, he would take one point and another and criticize.

I learned more about his trips from the media later and from him when he

testified.

So just to emphasize that when we heard from him, it was more about

criticizing the other camp, and sometimes also, I don't want to say criticize, but

complaining that our camp was not doing enough in that direction.

One minute.

BY

Q Thanks.




102

These are standard questions we've been asking others.

A Sure.

Q And your description of how your role changed and what you may

have been aware of and what email chains you were on is very helpful.

The first is the hack of the DNC and the release of the DNC's emails

through WikiLeaks and through several other cutouts or front personas, one being

named as Guccifer 2.0, another one being DCLeaks.

To what extent did you become aware of those developments? And what

conversations did you have or can you recall hearing from others about these

developments?

A The best of my recollection regarding all this, all these subjects is I

learned about them in the media. I don't recall anybody reporting to me directly

about direct knowledge about these matters during the campaign.

That's time.

Thanks.

Would you like a break?

MR. PHARES: I am good.

You are good.

Another 15.

BY

Q Thank you.

So just to be clear, you don't recall conversations or impressions of what

others may have been focused on or discussing from either the foreign policy

advisory team or perhaps even any individuals from the campaign in New York

about -- so the first question would be the hack of the DNC.




103

And secondly would be the distribution of the emails, so the dissemination

of the emails publicly. And that happened in waves during the final weeks of the

campaign, of the election. Is that correct?

A Yes. I don't -- I have a recollection as far as I can think now,

remember, of any direct knowledge about those.

Q So just to walk through the timeline, because part of it also occurs

around the same time as the convention that you were present for.

A Okay.

Q So on June 14th, 2016, the DNC announces publicly that it has been

the victim of an attack by Russian hackers.

A Uh-huh.

Q The next day, on June 15th, Guccifer 2.0 claims credit for hacking

into the computer system of the Democratic National Committee, the DNC.

That same day, on June 15th, a cybersecurity firm hired by the DNC

publicly attributes the attack on the DNC systems to groups associated with

Russia's security apparatus. In this public post online, this cybersecurity firm

named CrowdStrike --

A Crowd?

Q CrowdStrike is the name of the company. They assert that two

Russian-backed groups called, quote/unquote, Cozy Bear and Fancy Bear

tunneled into the computers -- sorry, the committee's computer systems.

Over the course of then several days, Guccifer 2.0 begins to leak some

information publicly. For example, on June 18th, Guccifer 2.0 publishes hacked

DNC documents including financial reports and donors' personal information.

June 21st, they publish a dossier on Hillary Clinton compiled by the DNC.




104

And then we come closer to the RNC. And I'm only describing a sample of

each case. The RNC Convention from the 18th to the 21st of July, the day after

that, so on July 22nd, another actor, this time WikiLeaks, releases nearly 20,000

stolen DNC emails containing more than 8,000 attachments, and these are emails

that cover more than a year worth of information.

And several days later, on the campaign trail, then-candidate Trump calls

on Russia, this is on July 27th, in what became a very well-known public

statement, he said, quote, "I will tell you this. Russia, if you're listening, I hope

you're able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing."

Trump said at a news conference -- this is what he said at a news

conference, quote, "I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press."




105

[2:27 p.m.]

BY

Q The reason why I go through this timeline is it was happening

concurrently with other campaign-related events, possibly interactions you may

have had with certain campaign officials, and what we are interested in knowing is

to what extent there may have been knowledge about these developments, to

what extent -- how these developments were viewed, and to what extent there was

use of the information that was hacked for campaign-related purposes.

So possibly to denigrate the other candidate, Hillary Clinton, to promote

certain themes about that candidate, to contrast that with then-Candidate Trump.

Given all this, we would be very interested in hearing, to the extent that you

may be aware of, how this was reverberating in the circles that you were involved

in.

A Thank you for the question. To the best of my recollection, first of

all, from all the information that you have mentioned I wasn't even following,

because my concerns were in different areas. But one thing I remember, when

candidate Trump made that statement calling on the Russians. And I don't know

how to analyze it, because I'm not a speechwriter. That I remember vividly, that

event.

I don't have a recollection that myself or the people with whom I worked we

had discussions, unless somebody mentioned it or said, look what's happening,

either on TV or in other form, on email. I don't have a recollection of that matter.

Q Okay, thank you. Are you aware of a trip that Donald Trump Jr. took

to Paris in, I believe it may have been -- I will get the exact date, but there was a

trip that Donald Trump Jr. made to Paris to speak in an event by a group named




106

the Center for Political and Foreign Affairs. It was in early October of 2016. Are

you aware of this trip?

A I'm vaguely remembering that it was in the news somewhere, but I

don't remember any detail about it.

Q Do you know who a person named Fabien Baussert or, in French,

Fabien Baussert is?

A Fabien Baussert? That name, I may have heard that name, but it

doesn't bring me any recollection. Is he a lawyer?

Q He is married to a woman named Randa Kassis.

A That is from my region. The best of my recollection now is the

names are not totally alien to me, but I don't recall where did I see him, see the

names or else.

Q So the public reporting on this trip suggests that this organization,

the Center for Political and Foreign Affairs, as well as the Movement for a

Pluralistic Society --

A Movement for?

Q A Pluralistic Society. Invited Donald Trump Jr., the son of

then-candidate Trump, in October, to speak in Paris, and this organization's

primary focus until then had been on the Syria conflict.

A Of the Syria conflict. Okay.

Q Yes. So the Movement for a Pluralistic Society has been reported in

the press at least to be, quote/unquote, "close to Russia," and there are questions

about whether or not it also has either sympathies for or even possibly contacts

with the regime of Bashar Assad. Does any of this ring a bell to you?

A Yes. The more we review, the more my memory starts to shed light




107

on -- on one name, Randa Kassis. That name, I can't tell you anything at this

point in time because I don't recall, but that name came in the sphere of those who

dealt with Syria, and I could check if you want for later to see if it's the sphere of

Assad. That's why I was -- when you mentioned the name, I have heard that

name. But this is something I cannot report now.

Q Okay. That would be very helpful if you can. But just to be clear,

so, other than the press reports, you were not aware of travel by Donald Trump Jr.

to Paris for this or any other purpose?

A I wasn't aware of any of his travel, including this one.

Q Okay. There has been public reporting on what occurred during this

trip and how much Mr. Donald Trump Jr. was paid. Given your career, your

public speaking role, your travel abroad on behalf -- to lecture or to speak at

conferences, has it been your experience that speakers are compensated for

appearing at an event sponsored by think tanks?

A Yes. To my recollection, it depends. People like myself, scholars,

academics, former government people, are often contracted by think tanks,

foundations, to receive an honorarium and to deliver a lecture.

But there is also the case whereby high-profile people who want to deliver

the lecture not for monetary purposes, you know, are not paid.

Q Right.

A So it depends on the cases.

Q And generally, what is your understanding of what the going rate

would be for someone who does receive an honorarium?

A To the best of my assessment, it's very difficult to give a rate,

because the rates are so wide. What we call -- and excuse the way we're going




108

to put it -- the Bill Clinton rate or Gates rate, these are a lot of zeros, to, if people

are like scholars, advanced scholars, somewhere between $5,000, $10,000

should be an acceptable rate.

Q So the public reporting suggests at least that Donald Trump Jr. was

paid -- was offered $85,000 for the speech. Would you view that rate, in light of

the spectrum of payment that you described, as being extremely generous?

MR. SOCARRAS: At this point, I'd like to jump in and say if the minority

would like to put Dr. Phares on contract as an analyst, I'm sure he'd be happy to

help out, but at this point you're going beyond his knowledge. This is opinions.

BY

Q Of course, it's purely opinion. We're taking it as such. It is merely

because he has worked in that field. I can only speak for myself, but I'm not

aware of the going rate, although I'm hoping it's lucrative maybe one day.

So yes, just generally speaking?

A For scholars --

Q And with all the caveats you may want to add.

A Well, all the caveats were added by my lawyer. I would add that this

is purely assessment, if not speculation. But I can answer the question, offer to

answer the question, is that for usual scholars, even advanced scholars, this

would be too high. I mean, no professor or head of think tank will get more than

maybe $20,000, regardless of who the person was.

This is a high-profile rate, which I call the Bill Clinton, and maybe now in this

case you're informing me that these are the rates that are given to international,

internationally recognized political figures.

Q Okay. Let me just check with my colleague.




109

One minute.

If I can yield back and maybe just have 1 minute to consult

with my --

Of course. Why don't we take a couple minutes and circle

back.

[Recess.]

Back on the record. Minority for 15 minutes.

BY

Q So I only have a few cleanup questions. This has to do with others

on the campaign. Did you have any interaction with Roger Stone during the

campaign?

A To the best of my recollection, none.

Q Did you know Roger Stone prior to joining the campaign?

A I haven't met him or spoken to him before.

Q Have you met or spoken to him since and, if so, did you discuss

matters related to the campaign?

A I haven't met or spoken to Mr. Stone since.

Q During your tenure on the campaign, did you interact with Paul

Manafort or Rick Gates at all?

A Let me begin with Manafort. From my recollection, I saw group

emails where his name was mentioned, but it wasn't a campaign email, so I cannot

talk to that. I met him -- no, I meant I saw him one time in the greeting room of a

TV station, 400 North Capitol. And I came to him and we shook hands and then

exchanged a couple words, and that was it. I didn't see him after that.

Q This is during the campaign period?




110

A Yes, including when he was a manager -- co-chair.

Q Okay.

A And Rick Gates?

Q Yes.

A No, I never met -- I may have seen him, but I didn't recognize him,

who he was.

Q And were you ever made aware of any discussions about Paul

Manafort or Rick Gates or Roger Stone, for that matter, by others on the campaign

as it related to foreign policy?

A All right. So, number one, to the best of my recollection, I haven't

heard any conversation or been part of a conversation regarding Mr. Stone.

Regarding Mr. Manafort, number one, I saw his name in a trail of emails,

you know, Rick Dearborn, others in New York. And during those 2 weeks when I

served, I did. And even after those 2 weeks, in those DonaldTrump.com emails,

at times I will see his name, but I have not had a conversation about an ongoing

initiative he was taking. I must have been excluded from it.

Q Okay. The same set of questions with regard to Stephen Miller.

You mentioned him briefly. If you can expand on what either your interaction was

with him or what your understanding was of his role on foreign policy matters?

A Okay. Stephen Miller, the best I can recollect was I saw him the first

time after I was appointed. I didn't know him before. The first time I was

appointed, we were also at that studio, TV studio, 400 North Capitol. He finished

his interview. I finished my interview. We were leaving the building, and he

came and shook my hand and he said, well, you are one of the advisers now.

And I told him, why don't we speak a little bit about the campaign. That was in the




111

early -- the early time, probably end of March or early April. And then I haven't

seen him or engaged with him.

But during the 2 weeks when I was at the office, he was actively engaged

with us, with Rick Dearborn and us on email, mostly the campaign email, but at

some time I saw his name in the private email. And it was about assessing items,

various items. The one I can remember was he would send us portions of foreign

policy speech or statement to be made, and each one of us in their field if we have

any input. So we had that.

Q And the circumstances surrounding the meeting with the Egyptian

President in late September of 2016, you mentioned Mr. Bannon, George

Papadopoulos, Mr. Flynn being involved. Are you aware of Stephen Miller's

involvement in that respect and possible interaction with Mr. Papadopoulos as part

of that?

A I don't have a recollection about Mr. Miller being in that phase, the

chapter of dealing with Egypt. I don't recollect. But I may be wrong if I see

documents.

Q These are also part of our standard questions. But were you ever

made aware of what has been publicly reported since, a meeting that Donald

Trump Jr., Paul Manafort, and Jared Kushner had with a delegation from Russia

that was led by a lawyer named Natalia Veselnitskaya at Trump Tower?

A To the best of my recollection, I had no information about that

meeting.

Q Okay. We spoke briefly about this quote by President Trump where

he was addressing Russia publicly about Hillary Clinton's emails. There has been

other reporting about other purported efforts to secure either lost or stolen material




112

or emails from Hillary Clinton.

Was that a subject matter that you ever became aware of or have

knowledge of through the course of your time on the campaign in discussions with

individuals in the campaign or around the campaign?

A To the best of my knowledge, I don't have any recollection of that

subject being discussed in my presence. The only time I learned about it was

from the media.

Q These final questions are similar but more specific than questions

that my colleagues around the aisle asked you about any activity you may have

conducted or anybody who may have approached you. But during the campaign,

did you ever provide any individual with any information related to Hillary Clinton or

any other political candidate or party? Let me rephrase that.

Did you ever provide any individual that you may have known was linked to

the Russian Government or had a relationship with the Russian Government in

any way with any information related to Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump?

A To my recollection, no.

Q Are you aware of anybody who provided information to the Russian

Government or an agent of the Russian Government during the campaign?

A To my recollection, no.

Q During the campaign, did you ever receive information about Hillary

Clinton or any other individual related to the Democratic party or Clinton's political

campaign from an unidentified source or a source you were not familiar with, either

by email, by text message, by phone call, by other private direct message?

A Clarification.

Q Please.




113

A That somebody would have sent a loaded email to my website, I

have no control knowing, and sometimes it will go into the trash. That is not what

you're talking about?

Q No. It's to what extent are you aware or do you have knowledge of

receiving any information?

There have been public reports about contacts via direct message on

Twitter, for example, or by unsolicited email, or an approach in person where there

may have been an offer of information. Are you aware of any of that that may

have occurred with you?

A Yes. On Twitter or any direct messaging way, I have not received

any of the messages you are mentioning. And to the best of my recollection, I

don't recall having received such messages through a website or even direct

contact.

Q And in the course of your time on the campaign, did you ever gain

knowledge of or hear from others on the campaign who may have discussed

having been approached themselves by a third party claiming to have information

of value to the campaign that may in some way relate to Hillary Clinton?

A To the best of my recollection, I do not remember hearing from

others that either they know or they had received information that would be

detrimental to Secretary Clinton during my tenure during the campaign.

I think that concludes the minority's questions.

Dr. Phares, thank you. The committee certainly appreciates

the time you spent here with us today.

And, with that, we're adjourned.

MR. PHARES: Thank you very much.




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[Whereupon, at 2:50 p.m., the interview was concluded.]


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