Spirit Pots

Ok, I'm having a total shit day here at work. I'm totally feeling Martial and want to kick some ass, but it's just not an option. I haven't had time to answer emails or blog or anything lately. Kingdom management is a pain in the ass. I need a break.

So fuck that presentation for a bit. I'm blogging.

Today, Dhr. Balthazar wrote a post about working with the dead, and he mentioned the following:my warning was mainly directed to those wishing to create spirit pots, spirit dolls, bundles and so forth for the dead. This is a somewhat more nuanced form of muerto work, during which things can in fact go wrong. Trickster spirits love containers. I mean they LOVE, containers. That got me thinking about my experience with Spirit Pots, and how the techniques I learned help mitigate that kind of thing, so you get a post about how to work with Spirit Pots safely and effectively, because I can bang it out quick and I need to think about something relaxing, peaceful, and centering, and nothing's better for that than some good old applied hermetics.

Spirit Pot Overview

A spirit pot is basically a high-end talisman. It is a physical object you've dedicated to a spirit that becomes its physical manifestation point in your world. It is a portal through which the spirit sends the forces it uses to influence your world. It is a communication point that you use to send your requests and offerings into its realm, wherever that may be.

By giving a spirit a physical manifestation point in your life, you're granting it your authority to change your manifest reality. You're giving it more power too, because now it has a foothold in your world. It's a really potent way to bring a spirit's influence into your life, and it guarantees that you will experience the forces the spirit represents first hand.

The spirit pot also functions as a mini-altar. You can put whatever items into the pot that relate to the spirit. This seems to give the spirit more power to affect your life, more influence over events that transpire. Anything you put into the pot will affect the way the spirit manifests in your life. Things in harmony with its essence help it function better in your world. Soil from areas you want it to influence extend its power to those areas.

The spirit pot is, in many ways, the body of the spirit you're working with. You feed it, clean it, and take care of it the way you take care of your own body. You can put it wherever you want it to have more influence, or you can put it on your altar to grant it influence over all things that manifest in your life.

The Spirit Pot Itself

Spirit pots can be made out of any container. I like brass vessels because they have a mercurial nature by virtue of being a blended metal, and Mercury/Hermes plays a big role in my Hermetic pursuits (as you can imagine). They can be glass boxes, craft boxes, cigar boxes, clay pots, tea kettles, decorative metal bowls, silver, or organic woven baskets, or even old oil lamps like Ali Baba found. They can be any kind of vessel or container.

The closer you can get the container materials to the essence of the spirit, the better. Iron pots

for Martial spirits would be acceptable, but they're no good for ancestor spirits, or most terrestrial genius loci spirits.

The form should be suited to the purpose too. Old brass lamps make sense because they are designed to turn fuel into emanated light. They project what's contained within in a useful way into the world outside the lamp. Very excellent metaphor.

Boxes are used for storage, so if you've got a box you're using, make sure you leave the lid open when you want the spirit active. Round bowls or pots can be used, but circles can confuse and trap a spirit.

And that brings up another interesting point, geometric shapes have spiritual properties. Circles and squares mean something to spirits. Agrippa has a chapter on it, but I don't have time to look it up at the moment. It's important to consider though. Square boxes make sense to me because there are four elements, and if I make a spirit pot, it's to get the spirit access to my material realm. Circles also make sense because they provide a continuous contact point with the rest of the world, projecting in all directions at once. You can get hexagonal and octagonal decorative vessels that might have some numerological correspondence to the spirits of the system you're working as well.

As you can see, the type of vessel you pick is going to depend a lot on the spirit you're working with, so before you even begin picking out the type of pot, it's a really good idea to to get to know the spirit you're making a pot for.

The Spirit

You should have an established relationship already, and have worked with it more than a couple of times before you start moving towards a dedicated talismanic object that you're going to give that kind of footprint in your life.* 

When you've worked with a spirit a few times, you pick up its preferences and its resonance. You'll know what types of things to include, and if you're not sure, you can ask them directly. Be warned though, there's not much that you'll offer a spirit for their pot that they'll turn down. They can use anything, as long as it isn't totally opposed to their nature, and they can even use some of that too.

Also, when you get to know a spirit first, you'll be drastically reducing the chances of getting a trickster spirit. You'll know right away if the spirit that takes up residence in the pot isn't the same one you've worked with before. There are other mitigating techniques to include, but this is the best defense against getting the wrong spirit I've found.

Listen to the spirit when you're picking out the vessel and the things to include. I go to the goodwill, flea markets, garage sales, and this one antique shop where this guy buys stuff from estate sales to pick out my spirit pot, and I take a second to picture the spirit's seal, call it by name, and ask its opinion on the pot I'm picking out for it. It only takes a second, and again, you'll have an established relationship with the spirit that grants you this kind of access to it before you start picking out pots. Can't stress that enough.

What Goes in the Pot

When you're gathering the stuff that goes inside, get the spirit's opinion as you pick the stuff

out. I like to shop at the local occult supply shoppe, and they have a wide assortment of crystals. When I pick out Jupiter stuff, I have a wide selection of blue stones available, for example, and I'll ask the spirit I'm working with which one they prefer. The Lapis Lazuli I used in the Jupiter talismans was Lapis and not Azurite because that's what they preferred at the time. Go shopping or gathering with your spirit, and make the spirit pot a cooperative venture from the very beginning.

I like to put together a wide variety of things for my spirit pots. I believe it needs soil from whatever grounds you want it to cover. Money pots should have dirt or stones from your local branch of your bank. Domination pots should have dirt from wherever you want to dominate, like your office, or the local Moose lodge or whatever. You can add dirt to the pot at any time after you make it, so don't stress too much about getting something for any situation that might arise later before you begin. At the very least, you should add some soil from your own home if you want it to affect your daily life.

I like to include a stone that is holy to the entity in some way as well. Lapis, axurite, rose quartz, amethyst, whatever stones are appropriate to the spirit. I always toss in a herkimer diamond because I think they're just funky. I've used orgone generators too, but these days not so much. I think some form of clear quartz is essential, because they are like crystallized light.

I also include incense that's appropriate, usually in resin form. Powders work well too, and you can crumble up a stick incense if you like. Scent is important to spirits. It's invisible, but you can sense it, and that's a very spiritual quality. There are whole tables of perfumes and aromas that are pleasing to spirits in the grimoires for good reason.

Plants are also important to include. Flowers of the appropriate color, sweet smelling grasses, fragrant saps, and tobacco are always good. Herbs, leaves, vines, and seeds are all good to include. Dried fruit is seldom turned down, but you've got to remember to change it out once in a while.

As you go along with your pot, you'll be adding and removing things to suit your current needs. When I needed Bune to work more actively, I put cayenne pepper in the pot to heat things up. For dream communications with the spirit, you can put in a small vial of lunar-consecrated water in it. This can be used to send specific visions to others as well, if you're into that kind of thing. Just remember, whatever you do to others, they'll do to you sooner or later.

Animal products are also things you can put in a pot. Alligator claws, eagle talons, bear teeth, small skulls, or whatever else you think is appropriate that fits in the pot can be used. Just remember, it's like giving your spirit a familiar of its own to work with and through. Toss in a bear tooth, and don't be surprised if your spirit starts sending you the spirit of the bear as a messenger, or manifesting through bear imagery in your daily life or dreams. Do you want your spirit to have a rattlesnake familiar? Think about that shit before you toss that neat rattle you got in Arizona as a kid in the pot.

Consecrating the Pot and its Ingredients

Ok, so you've gathered the stuff and you're ready to put it all together. This is a big deal, and should not be treated lightly. Consider it the moment of conception, when you create a physical body for the spirit to inhabit. You're putting the guts together inside the skin and

breathing life into it, sort of. It's very golemish, in a way, and you shouldn't be surprised if your spirit pot grows legs and travels around. I never saw my Bune pot move, but it was often in places I didn't recall putting it, and when I was ready to decommission it, it was stolen.

The first thing you'll want to do is pick a good time for it. You'll need a half hour or so set aside with no interruptions. I work mostly with planetary spirits, so I use planetary hours and days to pick my timing. For your pot, pick an auspicious time that resonates with the entity you're calling.

Begin by consecrating the vessel to the spirit. What right do you have to consecrate the pot? Is it because you're a human being made in the image of God and you are accepting your role as co-creator and therefore the pot will be consecrated because you say so? That's how I do it, so I start with a prayer to the First Father, thanking him for the opportunity to create the world and the authority to do so. Then I conjure my HGA, and get him to help in the process, asking him to make sure the right spirit appears, and that the vessel is prepared according to its requirements. Then I conjure the spirit who is actually going into the pot, and make sure they're present for the duration of the rite.

Then I cleanse the pot.

When you do the conjuration of the spirits using the Modern Angelic Grimoire, there's a part where you command the crystal to only allow the spirits you're calling in. You do something similar when you consecrate the pot. Talk to the pot itself, address the spirit of the object, and tell it that it has been consecrated to the spirit, tell it not to let any other spirit in, and seal it to the spirit itself. I do this by basically sprinkling it with Holy Water while saying, "In the name of the father + Son + and Holy Spirit + I cleanse you and consecrate you to be the physical embodiment of [Spirit Name]. Let no other spirit enter, and serve the spirit well as its embodiment within my world."

Next you mark up the vessel. I engrave the seal of the spirit and any related god-names on the outside of the pot using dremel tools for metal pots, or I use a paint pen. I like silver paint pens, and the spirits don't complain. I know one guy who got decent results with a sharpie. Your mileage may vary.

You know, honestly, the best thing you can do for spirit work is to get all the right ingredients and time it all correctly, and make sure it's all correct by whatever system you're using, but if you can't hit the center of the target, I've repeatedly found the spirits don't give a shit. As long as you're close, or in harmony, they are usually pretty ok with whatever you've got. that doesn't mean you don't try hard to make it as accurate as possible, and it doesn't mean you'll get the same quality of results if you cheat, but it's better to have a paper origami box you made by hand written on with ball point pens than nothing at all.**

Next you consecrate the items. I anoint them with holy water (and usually abramelin oil too) and tell them they're consecrated for the purposes of creating a harmonious vessel for the spirit.

Then you assemble the pot. Put all the stuff in the pot, and formally request that the spirit you've conjured enters into its vessel. Make a show of it, don't be afraid to breathe life into the pot. It's called exsufflation, breathing a spirit into a pot. "As I breathe into this pot, enter now this vessel and take up residence, and through it gain authority within my realm" blah blah blah. You know, make some shit up that sounds nice and embodies the intent.

Working with the Spirit Pot

Ok, so you've got the pot, it's got a spirit in it, and it's time to tap that spirit's influence to get something you want. Go to the pot and conjure up the spirit and tell it what you want. Ask it if it needs anything added to the pot to help it out. Sometimes it will tell you how many candles to light nearby so the light falls on the pot, other times it will tell you what foods to leave on a plate near the pot.

Whenever you need its help, talk to it. Don't be embarrassed, it's there all the time and ready to hear you. Talk to it out loud, because you've given it a body. Thinking at it doesn't change anything any more than thinking at a person in the room changes them. The more you learn to treat it as if it were the spirit, the more you'll be able to do with it.

And don't worry about those people who will think you're crazy for talking to inanimate objects. I mean, you already qualify as insane in their eyes because you really believe you're a magician with the power and destiny to change the world as you see fit. Fuck them and their sanity.

Ok, back to work. Have fun all!

* Remember, creating a spirit pot is granting a spiritual entity a physical form with the expectation that it will have more influence over your material realm. Think carefully about who you want to have access to your life, and don't be surprised when they start using the influence you've granted them.

** Except when it's not. Sometimes you fuck yourself royally taking short cuts or making substitutions in ignorance. Do your best, really, because it matters.

….

Susanne Iles said...

oooh! I just KNEW you were going to post about this..and I'm glad you did. Awesome as ever my friend..hope your summer is turning out to be a beautiful one.

July 13, 2011 6:41 PM

Frater Serpentis et Aquila said...

Awesome post, man. Thanks for sharing.

July 13, 2011 7:17 PM

yuzuru said...

One of your best posts, thanks, frater

July 13, 2011 7:52 PM

Anonymous said...

So, I have a question. What level of spirit do you usually make spirit pots for? What I mean is, I'd feel a bit silly asking someone as high on the spiritual food chain as Cassiel or another archangel to inhabit a spirit pot. Am I just being slow, or would you aim for something on the level of a familiar spirit like the kind the planetary archangels can give?

Also, my apologies if my English is a bit off.

July 13, 2011 8:46 PM

Rufus Opus said...

@ Anon, I prefer talismans for the Archangels, don't particularly know why though.

The Archangels of the planets are your brothers and sisters, in a very real way. There's nothing wrong with having a spirit pot for them. Of course you wouldn't be trapping them. They would still be everywhere all at once in the way they are before the spirit pot is made. You would simply have a stronger link to them in your personal world.

July 13, 2011 10:30 PM

ConjureMan Ali said...

Great post. Guess what topic of my upcomming text is ;-)

July 14, 2011 1:16 AM

The Scribbler said...

Dude! Your Bune pot got stolen? Did you mention that on the blog before and it escaped my notice? That is industrial-strength weird! And an appropriately poetic ending to that whole story. I'm almost inspired to write a short story about the poor slob who stole it. Yikes! Can you even imagine?

Another killer posting; deceptively rich in information and leavened by you unique rogue-ish humor. A little polish and it'll make a fine chapter in your first published p-book.

July 14, 2011 7:24 AM

M.C. said...

And THIS is the reason I love this blog. I first found Head For The Red when you were working on the Bune pot and it was my all time favorite series of yours, except of course for the Neo-Platonic Basics. The essay I just wrote for Hadean's Conjure Codex has a section on a spirit pot I made for Semjaza.

July 14, 2011 10:09 AM

Gordon said...

"By giving a spirit a physical manifestation point in your life, you're granting it your authority to change your manifest reality. You're giving it more power too, because now it has a foothold in your world. It's a really potent way to bring a spirit's influence into your life, and it guarantees that you will experience the forces the spirit represents first hand."

I love you, RO. love, love, love you. Succinct brilliance.

July 14, 2011 3:42 PM

Michael S. said...

I've recently been reading about painting [orthodox] icons, and it seemed to have some resonance with what you've posted here. The importance of getting in touch with the saint or angel being painted so that it's truly a window, and not just a painting; the fact that it's a link to the spiritual world, etc.Do you have any thoughts?

July 17, 2011 2:12 PM

Rufus Opus said...

@Michael S.:

I think that sounds awesome, it makes perfect sense. When I make a talisman of any kind, I want it to be a gate, a portal to the spirit, an access point to this realm, an interface.

Daimon Traps

Ok, so one of my clients asked me what to do with the Evil Daimon name that you can generate from your natal chart using a table of pretty simple correspondences. I explained to her that the only thing I do with mine is bind him in lead to keep him from making my life much worse than it already is. It also keeps those who know when and where I was born from being able to use it to work mischief against me. She asked me to encase hers in lead for her, and for low low rates, I quickly agreed.

It was not easy. Back in the day, I used a log to make a little Genius altar kind of thing. I made a place of reverence for the Genius, and I hollowed out the base a bit and sealed my Evil Daimon in lead in there. It wasn't that difficult, I put down a layer of lead, tossed in the name of the spirit engraved in steel, and then put down more lead. The steel tried to float to the surface, but I was able to take care of that.

For the client, I thought I'd just encase the steel with her evil daimon name engraved in it in some lead. Damn near impossible, man. I had it totally encased once, and when I went to engrave the seal of Cassiel over it, a chunk of lead went flying and revealed the name of the spirit a bit. Just enough to leave it a toe hold in her life.

So I went back to what worked for me. I took some old wooden disks I have lying around the garage and glued five of them together into a cylinder and clamped it together. They're a couple inches wide or so, and maybe an eighth or a quarter of an inch thick. More toward an eighth, I suspect.

Ignore the mess. Seen here: Disks, clamp, glue, and the

solder iron stand that I use for the wood burning.And some other stuff.

When the glue dried, I hollowed out a space big enough for the piece of steel with the evil daimon's name engraved in it, and then I melted some lead into the crevice, filling it about half way. Then I put in the spirit name, and covered it in more melted lead. It tried to float up

to the surface, but I was ready for it this time, and held it under the molten lead with a thin metal wire, and yeah, it got hot, but not that hot.

I made another one to demonstrate the hollowing technique. This was after I woodburned the client's, seen on the left.

The Big fishing weight is my lead source. And it really is lead, I checked.

These days they sell tin ones, so you have to be careful.When it had sealed up, I took the metal wire out, and hit the whole thing with the blowtorch, just enough to melt the surface, filling in the hole left by the wire. Then I melted more lead over that, and when it cooled, engraved the seal of Cassiel over it, in a Saturn hour on a Saturday after conjuring him for his assistance in the matter.

Man's best friend.When it cooled, I glued another disk over the lead, and woodburned in the Secret Seal of Solomon from the Lemegeton's Goetia, this time under the auspices of Mars and Saturn combined.

First I drew out the Secret Seal in pencil. I can't free-hand

woodburn it in from memory, I'm not that good.Oh, did I mention I bound the evil daimon to the steel using Mars in the first place? Should have mentioned that. I carefully conjured the evil daimon into the steel piece bearing its name AFTER I conjured my HGA and Kammael of Mars, and bullied it into the metal where it didn't really like to be at all. I needed some help to get it to stay there from Kammael. Oh, and when it wasn't in lead in wood for a couple days, I kept it in a Triangle of Art where it couldn't bother anyone.

Here it is woodburned, before the stain.When all was said and done, I stained it a nice dark color and let that dry, and then followed up with some clear poly to give it a thick rich gleaming coat. Well, I tired, but the stuff I had was the weak sauce. It sealed the thing, but it didn't give it the luster I was hoping for. It still turned out beautiful, in my opinion, but see for yourself:

Finished Spirit TrapThe client was very pleased, even though it took a month to get to her.

If you're interested, the steps are all here, and it's not that hard, except getting the Genius/Evil Daimon names, and Quaero Lux had an online name generator somewhere that made it pretty easy, if you've got some astrological skillz. It took an hour or two of actual work, and a few days of waiting for the glue to dry, and the stain to dry, and the poly to dry.

If you want me to do it for you, I'll do it for $125. You must be able to provide your full birth details though, where you were born, what time you were born, and the date you were born. I have to have all three. I tried to rectify a chart once for a client, and failed utterly and miserably. That was one of the very few times I refunded a client their money too, I failed so bad. So if you don't have the info, don't ask for one, I'm serious.

And honestly, do it yourself if you can. It takes some know how and some initiation, but mostly it takes the willingness to try.

This technique works for just about any kind of spirit that's bothering you, too, not just the natal Evil Daimon. It seals them off from affecting you in your kingdom. Don't go thinking you can trap YHVH with something like this, it doesn't work that way, but it does work to keep them out of your business.

John said...

" Don't go thinking you can trap YHVH with something like this, it doesn't work that way, but it does work to keep them out of your business. "

I lol'ed! I imagined YHVH to be Bugs Bunny in an odd way. If anybody is capable of pulling a fast one on God, as sure as heck he'd pull a sucker punch from out of nowhere.

July 14, 2011 11:22 PM

M.C. said...

By Jove, you've just given me a hell of an idea! (Insert sinister sounding cartoon laugh here)

July 15, 2011 10:42 AM

kmj said...

I'd like to know what one can do with the evil daimon name of someone else. For example, can you bind the evil daimon spirit of a criminal?

July 15, 2011 1:52 PM

Orochimaru said...

this is an absolutely amazing post! it took me quite a while to make sure that i have all the details right and i followed your intructions to the T. I think it does sound right. I am figuring out how to bind the Evil Daimon since this is my first venture in this area of sorcery

thanks much again! this was a truly fantastic post! thank you, sir!

July 15, 2011 2:29 PM

blueflamemagick said...

Thanks for this. I too have wondered what the heck to do with the "evil genius" *insert whatever variation of the title you want* and I like this idea of keeping it out of the way.

July 15, 2011 2:59 PM

Rufus Opus said...

The only thing I know of to do with someone else's evil daimon name is to conjure them to fuck up their lives. You can get the evil daimon name from any chart, any election, and you can use it to fuck with the manifestation of whatever idea took form in that moment.

And really, isn't life hard enough without making it worse? You fuck up your enemy's life, and they suffer, and they take it out on their wife, kids, dog, employees, clients, or whatever, and it just spreads shit out all over the world that we all have to live in.

Fucking with other people is fucking with ourselves, indirectly. Totally not worth it.

July 15, 2011 4:16 PM

Tropic Of Pisces said...

I'm the client R.O. made the trap for.

My intention for it was that perhaps trapping my evil natal daemon would help me in attaining my HGA, but it's also brought some really practical and unexpected benefits. I've been able to get some long-term bad habits under control. Trapping the daemon has also coincided with an amazing opportunity coming into my life. I don't know what others' experiences might be, but for me it was practically a magic bullet and has had a wide ranging effect.

I've been so pleased with the results that I asked if I could have a trap made for my sister, as well, because I would want the same for her. This is the single most beneficial work of magic I've experienced, and I've used a wide range of rituals and talismans. R.O., I am so glad you were inspired to offer me this! Thank you!

July 15, 2011 9:48 PM

MKA said...

Interesting, I need to look into this further.

July 17, 2011 6:37 PM

Frater Acher said...

I think you just sealed up your most important teacher.

July 18, 2011 1:13 AM

Rufus Opus said...

@Fr. Acher:

No, the Evil Daimon is not your most important teacher. It's the spirit you can conjure from a natal chart or from an electional chart that stands opposed to the manifestation of any idea.

Like say someone's going to get married, and you're jealous, and you want them to have a terrible marriage. You'd get the chart of their wedding, determine the name of the Evil Daimon, and send it to make them miserable.

Or if there's someone you hate, if you've got their birth information, you conjure the Evil Daimon to make their lives hell.

Someone anonymously (cowardly) posted that they thought the Evil Daimon is the "shadow" self of Jungian psychology, and it's not. It's your adversary.

Binding it in lead doesn't give you a stress-free life. It doesn't bind everything that's bad that happens to you.

It simply binds the entity who can make your life a living hell. It keeps others from being able to get it to work against you. Hermetically speaking, it helps keep you from falling into idolatry and the traps of meaningless desires.

July 18, 2011 5:02 PM

Frater Acher said...

@RO:

I agree that the Evil Demon isn't Jung's shadow, I also agree that if conjured by someone else they can use it to tear your life into pieces. Yet this other person can conjure many other demons instea, use a curse, etc.

So the risk of someone else making my life a living hell will not go away by sealing up my Evil Demon.

Now, we can agree to disagree on this as it is a question of hermetic philosophy (and I am still researching on it) but in my worldview of magic everything exists for a reason. Nature doesn't create demons to simply destroy our dreams - even the Qlippoth have a function.

In this semse I still think the Evil Demom is your ,ost important teacher. We will never turn this force around to become creative rather than destructive. Yet if balanced daily and approached in light of our HGA it holds a busload of learnimg about our personalities everyday...

I asked my HGA about it the other day. Her reply was that my Evil Demon is what keeps me bound to the density of the depth of the Abyss. It is the antagonistic force - call it the big brother of the Dweller on the Threshold. But that's how we humans are constructed. My Evil Demon is closely connected to all aspects of dying in my life. Would I banish these?

If even Steve Jobs can learn that "death is the biggest advocate of life" magicians in my humble opinion have a responsibility to engage peacefully with what they fear most as well.

July 19, 2011 12:53 AM

Rose Weaver said...

@Frater Acher, you make excellent points within your comment regarding how even within magic, everything exists for a reason, including our Evil Daimon. I have always subscribed to this philosophy, and the concept that even unpleasant experiences can teach us some of the most profound lessons in life.

However, there comes a point within almost everyone's life, even in the life of a magician, when things have gone wrong for so long and the stress piles up so high that no matter what is done, mundanely or magically, that it begs the question "What the hell is going on here?" One may try everything they know to ease these stresses, mundanely and magically, and yet rather than things easing, situations actually worsen. Some might suggest this is the mark of a poorly skilled mage. I'd say, perhaps, but not always, especially when one looks at the chart of one experiencing such a run of "bad luck"... years worth.

As R.O. points out, trapping the Evil Daimon doesn't stop stressful experiences from occurring, which in turn, doesn't stop the unpleasant experiences in life from happening which means we still have plenty of opportunities from which to learn from these experiences. But it seems to me that when things have spiraled out of control to such a degree that the unfortunate individual cannot seem to gain the upper hand, trapping their Evil Daimon, especially if their astrological chart is one filled with challenges already, is a good way to finally get a handle on things.

Just my opinion, of course.

More on Spirit Pots

So in the spirit pot post, I forgot to mention that "spirit pots" are a tool that comes from the ATRs, living traditions that have a lot in common with the system I use. There's a harmonic between the grimoires of the Renaissance and the living ATRs today. Some ATRs use the same grimoires I use, in fact. Some use grimoires that I don't use, but were around when the grimoires I use were around, like the St. Cyprian text. I believe it could be argued that the ATRs incorporated the grimoire traditions of the Renaissance, at least in part, and I think there have been periods of time between now and the 15th century where the only place grimoire magic has been performed has been in the ATRs, and maybe some small Dutch communities scattered across the Appalachians.

So, you know, respect to the ATRs.

The Hermetic practices I use are the syncretic result of the beliefs of Egypt, Persia, Greece, Rome, and Israel bumping elbows in the first few centuries AD. My personal practices are the condensation of the Hermetic beliefs as they manifested in the 15th century. I draw from manuscripts and papyri that have as much or more missing as they have present. Getting the grimoires into a working tradition takes ingenuity, insight, and intuition. Fortunately, it's guided by the spirits we work with, and they show us how to breathe life into some things that are only mentioned in passing in different places.

Vessels used to house spirits are mentioned in a few places in my studies of grimoire practices and the Greek Magical Papyri. The story of Aladdin's Lamp comes from the Persian magical tradition, which has stories of spirits living in not only lamps, but the rings and amulets more familiar to grimoire readers today. The Lemegeton has the famous Brass Vessel to trap the spirits, which shows up in Shaharazad's tale of the man who found the demons Solomon

bound in a brass vessel washed up on the shore. The demiotic texts make use of a vessel for divination that you draw the gods into with various suffumigations. Mystics and magicians of medieval times were said to have so many oracular brass heads that people didn't even think there was any magic related.

There's not a lot of info on how the vessels were used, but for rings and amulets of similar functionality, appropriate herbs and stones were gathered and consecrated at propitious times, and put together using the same methods I described in the "spirit pot" post. But there's something that should be noted about these vessels I'm talking about in my Hermetic practices:

They aren't Spirit Pots of any ATR. They are not nganga from the Palo tradition. They aren't ancestor spirit pots. They are vessels used to communicate with spirits that function as high end talismans. My instructions are an adaptation in harmony with the spirit conjure work I do in my Hermetic practices. They are not instructions for performing authentic ATR practices, and using them doesn't make you a hoodoun, voudoun, santero, or palero in any way, shape or form.

What I've done is taken bits and pieces of different aspects of my Work, Aaron Leitch's inspirational notion that the brass vessel of the Lemegeton and the Nganga of Palo were related, and I've put together something that works nicely in my practices. My Hermetic practices. And it works really well, for a reason.

Early on in my work with my Holy Guardian Angel, I had the good fortune of being guided to the Dehn translation of the Book of Abramelin. I read this book at a key point in my magical metamorphosis. I had been reading Pow Wow, or Long Lost Friend, and I'd gotten my hands on a receipt book from a hoodoo worker. I'd been doing Angel magic using the Trithemius method for a good minute too, and conjuring the spirits of the Lemegeton's Goetia. I was doing a whole lot of conjure work, and actually doing the things the spirits led me to do to work with them. I was talking to Paleros, Santeria initiates, folks who were at least claiming to be initiates into Hatian voodoo, Curanderismos, Jake Stratton-Kent with his translation of the GV and during the time he put together Geosophia, and a couple people into things I don't talk about, and we were comparing notes about what we learned and the kinds of things the spirits have us do.

Then I read the Dehn translation, which included things the Mathers' manuscript had lacked, and it read just like the receipt book and Pow Wow, and it was exactly the kind of thing I was doing under the tutelage of the spirits. I mean, exactly the same kind of techniques. It was like everything came together all at once. The key manuscript for gaining Knowledge and Conversation with the Holy Guardian Angel was a receipt book used by a conjure magician who would have been right at home with my circle of practicing practical magicians.

This put ceremonial magic itself into a whole new light. I was able to read Agrippa and see it as a living, breathing system recorded by a savant who wandered Europe gathering hermetic lore. I saw the tables of correspondences of herbs and planets as the detailed ingredients list for putting together sunthemata, talismans that brought together the harmony of Sacred Geometry, the Intelligence of the Spirits by Name and Seal, and the things of the plant, animal, and mineral realms that all corresponded to the Idea that was manifesting as the Intelligence, the Spirit, the physical materials, and the situations I wished to influence.

I saw it all in a big harmonious flash, realizing that the folk magic of Russian Orthodox and

Crowley's primary goal for magicians were different faces of the same magical practices. I saw a single magical tradition that spanned from thousands of years BC to the present day, a tradition that includes the ATRs practiced in South and Central America as much as it includes the Renaissance Karcists, the 1st century Hermeticists, and the Ancient Greek Goes. We do the same things, gathering flowers, lighting candles, chanting, meditating, praying, orating, exorcising, and making talismans of various types to act as physical manifestations for the spiritual powers we work with to create our world.

Our traditions have always enriched one another.

Some folks are sensitive about it. The way the different traditions have nourished each other has almost always been through the conquering and subjugation of one people-group and their culture by another people-group and their culture. The conquering culture comes in and redistributes the conquered culture's property in ways that are most beneficial to the conquering culture. The oppressed culture gets screwed. Over time, the cultures blend with varying degrees of homogeneity, and become something different than either culture was before one conquered the other. The conquered resent the conquerors. Some oppressed people feel like anyone from the conquering culture who expresses interest in their beliefs is pillaging the intellectual property the same way the conquerors pillaged the personal property.

Think about your magician friends though. I was talking to Jason Miller the other day, and he told me about a meditational technique he uses and showed me how to do it. I used it just last night in my Thursday rites. Aaron Leitch's wife is an initiate of an ATR, and it was through his exposure to her practices and discussions with her that he made the link between his Solomonic experiences and her ATR experiences. I talk to Fr. AIT about Hoodoo and Alchemy, and we exchange techniques and tools through our blogs and personal exchanges.

Magicians of the conquering and conquered cultures did the same throughout history. The Egyptians and the Greeks had a lot of conversations about philosophy and magic, and they worked well together. The politics didn't interfere, the magicians made use of their circumstances to exchange information and technology.

Usually it's done in a respectful way, sometimes not so much, and there's always a group of people from each culture who think the result of the syncretism is shit and only their original pure system was worthwhile, and never mind that their original pure system is the result of the last time they conquered someone or were conquered themselves.

I try to be respectful of the traditions of others, because everyone doesn't see it as a single system that spans all space and time, with different dialects in place in different times and places. But there are more practical reasons for being respectful too.

You can't always just drag and drop, copy-paste shit from different systems together and get a harmonious end result. I called the vessels "spirit pots" and probably shouldn't have, because that implies they "are the same thing" as the spirit pots used in ATRs, and they really aren't. The creation of spirit pots in ATRs is a specialized process, and there are rules that need to be followed, traditions that deserve to be treated respectfully. Taking my instructions and applying them to your Ancestor spirits in an ATR kind of way could be dangerous, I don't know. I doubt it's any more dangerous than Balthazar warned in his post, but I could be wrong. I've been wrong before, once or twice.

And look, seriously, listening to me and doing what I talk about can hurt you, because for all I've done and accomplished and experienced, I'm not perfect, omniscient, or omnipotent. Totally fallible here.You're getting information about doing magic that changes the world from a blog on the internet. From a guy who thinks he's right about everything, even though he's got years of failures, explosions, and all kinds of scars covering his hands from playing with fire and metals provign that sometimes he fucks up. And I'm sure I've got some raised toxic metal levels in my blood from all the talismans I make in my garage.

I don't tell you to do anything I don't do or haven't done, so you can at least rest assured that anything you suffer from my instructions, I'm suffering too. I'm sure that will help make you feel better when your world is falling apart.

Now Balthazar accused me of dumbing down the spirit pot thing for Western consumption. I was hurt by that, as it wasn't my intent, and I thought he knew me better than that. But I can see where he's coming from, I didn't say all this stuff in the original post, he doesn't understand how it all came together for me. And maybe even knowing how it all came together won't matter to him because he's worried that I'm going to screw someone's life up by giving them advice that doesn't work in his experience, or he thinks I'm ripping off the ATRs or something.

My whole approach to this process is to present the Great Work in an approachable way, taking it from the realm of the impossible dream/interesting theory to the living reality. Some folks would see that as "dumbing it down for mass consumption," and that's their right to see it that way.

A reminder though, my intent in writing this blog is to get you to personally do magic and interact with spirits because the results will be you personally taking strides along the path of the Great Work. The sooner we all get it done, the sooner we can stop incarnating and suffering, or so I hope. If getting you to do magic is dumbing it down for mass consumption, so be it. I'm guilty as sin.

....

De heer Balthazar said...

Thanks R.O. I appreciate your clarification of this. I think this discussion is important to see in the discourse. My main anxiety was around segueing from the muerto pot caution to your application of pots. I worry that people think that these two things are interchangeable or comparable and that they try and assemble one of the muerto pots I discuss in this way.

Some harm might come of this. I have seen it happen, first hand. I know you don't encourage people to harm themselves (hence your stance the goetic work of late) and that you work the pots substantially differently to the what we see in the afro-caribbean spirit work - yet, because of your mention of ancestral spirits in the post I myself became unsure what precisely you meant.

In any case, thanks for putting it in context and discussing further.

I'll post a clarification on my side also.

Good post.

July 15, 2011 6:48 PM

ConjureMan Ali said...

It is interesting that this is coming up, I'd say there was a synchronicity.

Myself and Jake Stratton-Kent are currently in the joint endeavor of writing a text recreating the spirit pots of Goetia.

Both of us are of the mind that spirit vessels were far more common than we believe and that the techniques for making them are alluded to in the grimoires and the Greek Magical Papyri.

Under the guidance of the spirits of the Grimorium Verum we have recreated the process of making the spirit vessels of old.

I think you'd find it most interesting.

July 15, 2011 8:12 PM

M.C. said...

I've very, very little experience with ATR's and even less with their version (perhaps the original version) of the Sprit Pot or Nganga, but I do see how creating one wherein a spirit of the dead or the spirits of that tradition reside could be brutally dangerous. I dont see how that relates very much with your original post the other day as those aren't spirits you work with typically, but I guess its conceivable that someone who is lesser informed could try to apply your techniques to the dead. And yes, that would be dangerous for them, but hell if misused or used in ill-informed ways, what part of what we do WOULDNT be dangerous? That said, however, I have and do use spirit houses in my own Grimoiric work, and do so with very satisfying results, and I've found them very useful in building relationships with certain "classes" of spirits, to wit, a "Fallen" Angel, A Khemitian deity who has become one of my patrons, and, yes, a "demon." Perhaps my own experience is the exception rather than the rule, but in several years of maintaining these houses and cultivating relationships with these spirits, I've never experienced anything dangerous or malicious. I don't think I'd screw with bring a muerto or a Loa into one, simply because I dont know anything about them and tend not to fuck with that which is alien to me and it just CANT be a good idea to open a permanent door to your life to something you dont know.

July 16, 2011 12:51 AM

ConjureMan Ali said...

Actually, I personally believe that working with the dead is a great for this type of work, if you know what you are doing.

Necromancy and the dead are a strong part of the goes tradition that has been sorely neglected. We have strong indication that spirits of the dead were used as familiars and intermediary spirits that would aid the magus in contacting other spirits.

The key is of course knowing how to go about it ;-)

July 16, 2011 4:03 AM

Optimystic said...

Great stuff. I know what you mean about seeing the bigger picture across time, history, and space. It is very difficult to explain to people who are exclusively devoted to particular traditions. Language can communicate so much, and yet it obscures things at the same time. I've gone back to school to try to get the heart of its magic, and there is still so much about it I don't understand.

July 17, 2011 3:55 PM

Aaron said...

This is an issue I've run into as well. I make references in my work to such things as "Solomonic Ngangas" and "Solomonic Omiero" - which has irked many people in the ATR communities. (At least until they learn I'm not just some geek trying to appropriate their culture for my own benefit.)

The fact is that I learned to make spirit pots and herbal holy waters from my interactions with ATR practitioners. I've never been so foolish as to think I've learned all their secrets - but that doesn't mean I haven't learned some useful material. So when I created what ultimately turned out to be similar to Hoodoo washes, with a Solomonic flare, I called it by the only damn term I had for it: 'Omiero.' (I always use the quotes and stress that my version is NOT one and the same with real Omiero, but ATR folks seem incapabable of reading and understanding those kinds of disclaimers.)

The same thing goes for my habit of calling spirit pots "ngangas." I was not ripping off another culture - I was merely using the term for "spirit pot" that I had before I ever heard the term "spirit pot." I once had an ATR practitioner assure me that there was no such thing as a "Solomonic Nganga" anywhere in the world - even after I pointed him to pictures and blogs about Frater R.O.'s! But merely because I had used the word "nganga" he got all pissy.

Today, I am more likely to refer to these things as "Solomonic herbally-infused holy water" and as "spirit pots." Not because I'm so convinced that "Omiero" and "Nganga" are the wrong terms, but because I'm tired of explaining myself to those who won't take the time to read what I write.

In the end my message here is much as it was in my last reply: The ATR folks need to come down off their high horses and cut the rest of us some slack. We have FINALLY stopped bashing you for what you do, have FINALLY turned toward your wisdom and

experience. Now you can try to grow up enough to accept our contrition and stop telling us how ignorant you're sure we are. Dig?

July 18, 2011 4:04 AM

Rufus Opus said...

Aaron, we're on the same page entirely. I think we'll have to endure being thought of as ignorant for another generation or two until the tech we're prototyping and refining gets a little more robust and a lot more widely used.

I'm ok with that, as long as it comes with useful advice. It doesn't have to be secrets and oath-bound stuff, it can be a "that's the spirit of Death you're dealing with" kind of thing that tells us, ok, we need to get more info from Saturn to flesh out this piece of tech.

Y so Srs?

Ok, so Dhr. Balthazar's still concerned, and Jason thinks I'm underestimating the danger, and I've just got to know, why so serious about working with the dead in a spirit pot?

I mean, come on, a demon I had in a spirit pot burned my fucking house down. It's more dangerous than that?

We are talking about the spirits of the dead, right? Dead people.

In my experience with the dead, there are two types, the Powerful Dead who made it to a certain point in their spiritual attainment who became demigods, sort of like the Saints and the Heroes of Greece, and the far more common restless spirits, the shades of the dead, the nepheshim.

The Powerful Dead

Saints and Heroes make for the best kind of necromancy, imho. My main goal as a

Hermeticist in this incarnation is to become one of them, in a way. The Hermetic texts teach that we go up through the heavens and become Powers, the same kinds of Powers we work with when we conjure angels and Intelligences and Spirits and such.

Saints... well, they're pretty obviously like these Powers. And the catholics have centuries of history working with them through spirit pots too. They call them Reliquaries. Really, not that dangerous, though I wouldn't steal one from a church.

In Voodoo, you learn to work with the Ghede, who I think are like the Heroic Dead, powerful, useful, helpful, and dangerous in the same kind of ways that the demons of the Goetia and Theurgia Goetia and the Planetary Spirits are powerful, useful, helpful, and dangerous. Jake Stratton Kent has talked before about how the spirits contacted in real old fashioned Greek Goetia were the powerful dead, like the tribes of the Ghede, who got promoted. I don't pretend to understand all that, but from what I do know, I know enough to stay away.

I wouldn't work with them through a spirit pot. They're saints and powers and demigods. Candles and altars make more sense to me than a spirit pot. A spirit pot is a more personal thing.

The Not-So-Powerful Dead

And then there's the Nepheshim, the far more readily available and contactable type of dead spirit that you'll most likely end up with in your spirit pot if you try to work the dead through the spirit pot instructions I gave.

I speculate that in Palo, you get a spirit the way Agrippa talks about it in Book 3, chapter 42. He talks about collecting bits of the body of the recently dead and using that to get those who died violent deaths or criminals or those who are yearning for a proper burial to do mean things for you. These are the nepheshim, the mortal parts of the soul that are supposed to fade away and turn to dust in sheol, but don't because they find another food source. They can live for a while after the body dies, up to a year according to some Hebrew and Greek sources, but usually they fade after six weeks if no one's feeding them.

And these spirits do mean things for people because they're angry, confused, scared, and all emotional about shit. They just lost their bodies in a painful or disturbing way, and on top of that, they lost their minds. Because their minds are the Ruachim parts of the human soul, not the nepheshim. The Ruachim have wandered on to the Akashic Records or are "asleep in christ" or something like that. They have no need for the body or the nephesh anymore, so the nephesh is all, "I'm abandoned, my body is dead, and I'm scared! and Angry!" Moody bitches, man, moody bitches.

Necromancers trap these spirits and send them at targets, and they'd go be all moody around their targets. Agrippa says they can "kindle unlawful lusts, cause dreams, diseases, hatred and such like passions." That's about what I've seen people in the Hispanic communities use the dead for, pretty much. They can get pretty powerful if they're fed right and taken care of, exercised and built up. They can be developed. But it takes a while, special training, and you really need to know what you're doing. Because they're toxic.

I've seen these spirits banished with as little as the sign of the cross and a Hail Mary. Some needed more careful exorcisms. One time I went to the Divine Darkness to eliminate a tribe that had been sent against someone. None of them that I've met can stand up to some Saturn

forces lined up against them personally. I learned from Bune how to make them appear before me and give me their name, and once I've got that, I can engrave it in lead with some symbols of Saturn and bury it, hold a formal funeral, and the spirit's gone.

They're annoying, frustrating, and emotional, and they can cause the kind of damage in your life that you can cause when you act in frustration, anger, fear, or horror. They're really good at causing mental illnesses.

So yeah, putting one in a spirit pot if you don't know the risks can be dangerous. You've got to shield yourself from that shit, because you might think you've got the whole spirit of the person, but really you've just got the nephesh, the emotional survivalist who is more panic button fight/flight syndrome all the time than anything else.

Again speculation here, but I think Paleros and those trained to work with the muerte learn how to make the nepheshim calm and at rest while they're in their spirit pot, and then all upset when they send them to work mischief. I think they empower them and make them stronger too. Exercise them. Build them up. They also know how to keep any of the mental illness or occasional shifting keys and falling iron pans from disrupting their lives too much. One guy I knew cyber-socially mentioned that he just lived with it, called that kind of stuff the dangers of working with the dead. I wouldn't put up with it, personally. My own nephesh causes enough shit in my life, I don't need any other nepheshim buggin' me.

Now these aren't the ancestor spirits. These are wandering ghosts who haven't been properly shriven, who need to be put to rest, and who can be used for nefarious purposes if that's your schtick. Personally, I can do all the shit they do without using them. Ask my wife if I can cause mental illness, she'll tell you straight up I'm a pro.

Ancestor Spirits

But the ancestors are a different subject altogether. Most people I've seen talking about wanting to work with their ancestor spirits are talking about their dead relatives. Grandpas and grandmas, family legends who were teh awesome. They're looking for ... well, money, most of the time, but they don't say so, but also protection and guidance. Generally they want a house god, someone who keeps the peace, aids in prosperity, and protects the family from other wandering ghosts and anyone in the flesh with evil intentions.

In his Abramelin Ramble, Bill Heidrick talks about working with the nepheshim of ancestors. Good stuff, I won't repeat it here. It's chapter five, under the heading "Kitty just ate the neighbor's dog." Heh. I love Bill Heidrick.

Now remember, I'm not trained in any ATRs, and this is just speculation, but from the way I understand the whole death process to work, the spirits of the dead that you're going to get in a spirit pot are most likely going to be nepheshim. Even if you get the nephesh of the family member you want, it's still not going to be the whole person, their mind and memories and personality. It's going to be the part of them that kept them alive, that felt the deepest, most passionate feelings. It's little more than an animal consciousness. 

The part of them that you want to talk to is their Ruach, and it's moved on to better places. Contacting it and getting it to take up residence in a vessel for you is possible, but to do so properly would take skill and training, and magical experience. And permission to do that kind of thing. Saturn can grant access to these halls, and that path has dangers of its own to face.

So, y so srs?

All those bad things the spirits of the restless dead do that I talked about earlier? That's the worst case scenario that I know of that could happen to you if you try to make a muerte pot without proper training. Your kids will hear voices telling them to "cut the bitch's head off." Your cat will go insane and try to attack you (happened to my uncle after a ouija board experiment gone wrong). You'll hear all kinds of shaking and rattling. You'll be risking your sanity and the peace of your home and your family.

Biiiiiiiiiiig fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuckin' deeeeeeeeeaaaaaaal. 

You're a freakin' magician. Wake up and smell the asafetida. This is exactly what you signed on for, and these are the risks that come with it. Whether you're putting together a muerte pot off misrepresented spirit pot instructions from a blog you read or conjuring your HGA, there's always a chance that you're going to pick up a nephesh with all these powers. This shit is risky. We're like archaeologists who found some ancient Greek instructions for building something cool, but we don't know for sure what it did, or how it worked, or whether it was some kind of mana machine or a microwave antenna that will fry our balls off. We're working off intuition, and trusting in an invisible hand that put us on this path to keep us from creating a Three Mile Island meltdown in our garage.

People who never practice magic risk getting these kinds of spirits. They are as common as dandelions. You know all your friends on anti-depressants, anti-anxiety, and mood stabilizing drugs? I'm not saying all of them, but more of them than you think are suffering from nephesh-created or nephesh-exaggerated symptoms of mental illness. Whether they caused it or recognized it as a free food source, you can bet they're around, and it's part of your job, magician, to clean that shit up. The LBRP will get rid of most of them, that's part of why you learn it first in the Golden Dawn, because they don't need that shit hanging around their temple on the noobs. It's like teaching someone basic hygiene so they can be around other people without getting them sick.

Prayer, having them acknowledge Jesus as Lord, or return the right grade signs of the Golden Dawn, or recite parts of the Book of the Law, or intoning YHVH at them, or tracing the seal of the Archangel Michael over them will reveal them to be what they are and drive them off. And if you can't get rid of them, you've got a mentor somewhere, someone with a shared interest you can check with for help. And if they won't help, you've got your HGA, or your Angel of the Nativity who will get them off you or bring you someone to help.

And that invisible hand that put you on this path hasn't stopped meddling in your life either. He who called you is capable of keeping you. Seek first the Kingdom of God, and all this shit will pass by you, and only you will remain. I promise.

And you've got one more thing going for you: common sense. Well, probably not if you're as human as I am, but if you're lacking that, you've at least got a sense of self preservation. If you feel like putting together an ancestor pot is too dangerous, it really is for you right now. You'll be increasing your chances of getting a nephesh spirit by a huge exponential if you put together a spirit pot without enough experience. 

But I firmly believe you'll end up learning how to deal with it. I think that's a good thing, and I think you're up for the task, with all the forces available to you. This magic stuff is dangerous. 

But as Bilbo said, "It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to."

.......

ConjureMan Ali said...

I think its definitely correct to point that that all that we do in this path has potential for great danger. Even intitiated members of the ATR recgonize that even with permission and initiation they still run risks.

However, I must disagree with your speculation on the nfumbe of the Palero. The spirit that is placed within the Prenda goes through a nigromantic process that produces a powerful spirit that is akin to a non-blood ancestor, imbued with the power of the Rada and becomes a powerful force of magic and guidance. It is more similar to a HGA then the resltess dead.

Nevertheless, you do have a point. One doesn't learn respect for fire until a finger or two is burned.

July 17, 2011 1:53 PM

Rufus Opus said...

I also tried to point out that spirit pot experiments magnify the risk exponentially.

And thanks for the insight into the nfumbe. I really don't know what it goes through, but I find it fascinating.

I'm basing my speculation off the two paleros I've known who talked about what they do, and a few I've seen on some message boards. And some experience with some folks in Panama who were convinced it was a palero who was working against them. And I'm assuming they used the spirit of their nganga to attack the family, which could be wrong too.

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. If it turns out there's a real reason to be "So srs," I'll look like an ass when I apologize and admit my wrongness. That would suck, but it would be worth it to be made right if I'm wrong.

July 17, 2011 2:17 PM

M.C. said...

"Biiiiiiiiiiig fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuckin' deeeeeeeeeaaaaaaal.

You're a freakin' magician. Wake up and smell the asafetida. This is exactly what you signed on for, and these are the risks that come with it."

Excellent point. Like I said in my previous comment, I don't know a hell of a lot beyond what I pick up here on the blogosphere with regard to working with the dead, But I do know that a large part of my evocative work is with "demons", and I'm pretty damned sure none of the Muertos I'd be capable of bringing into a spirit pot are half as dangerous as these guys. I mean, demons... biblical bad guys with a penchant for tearing shit up on a global level, so much so that the majority of the world is terrified of them, even having no experience with them whatsoever.

July 17, 2011 2:27 PM

Frater Adservio said...

Thanks for an informative post, R.O. I've thought, in the past, about working with the dead but never really got around to it.

And thanks, too, for the reminder that this Work has its own risks. Even something as apparently innocuous as an initiation can throw you for a loop if you're not ready and able to manage it.

And, what's more, for me, it's always the simplest things that fail the most dramatically...

July 17, 2011 3:43 PM

Rose Weaver said...

"Biiiiiiiiiiig fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuckin' deeeeeeeeeaaaaaaal.

You're a freakin' magician. Wake up and smell the asafetida. This is exactly what you signed on for, and these are the risks that come with it."

I absolutely love this post, and it's not simply a matter of working with the dead that makes your post an important read. It's the comment above. No matter what we do, it comes with risks. All of it.

And if you're not ready to deal with those risks, get off the freakin' path.

July 17, 2011 4:17 PM

Rufus Opus said...

@Rose,

Well, I wouldn't say "if you're not ready, get off the path," but definitely "if you're not ready, get ready already."

The HGA is wonderful for this kind of thing. Crowley advised well when he advised magicians to make this their primary goal, because it makes all these risks ever so much less risky.

July 17, 2011 4:35 PM

M.C. said...

"Crowley advised well when he advised magicians to make this their primary goal"

@RO I agree, but I think its been misinterpreted by most, and his wording didnt help. Making contact with your HGA and building that relationship should definitely be among your first priorities, and until it is achieved nothing else should supplant it as your primary focus, but its definitely not "The Supreme Act of Magick", its not the culmination of a Magickal Lifetime as most Crowleyites believe, there is much, much more afterwards.

July 17, 2011 5:18 PM

Valeyard said...

I'm by no means experienced in working with the dead yet, but R.O. your blog entry today makes many fine points in answer to Jason's blog entry yesterday and all kinds of sense. That said isn't the danger of a rogue muerto a more persistent danger than the admittedly more explosive danger of a demon? As has been said elsewhere sometimes LBRP isn't effective in getting rid of stronger spirits of the dead. Then again, as someone who works with demons on a regular basis - piss one off and they have no problem reaching out and touching you whenever they god-damn please (banishings or no). Then again I think I'd rather deal with beings that can be reasoned with and appeased if necessary rather than mindless pieces of human spirit that are lingering around causing general chaos. Preference I guess?

July 17, 2011 6:10 PM

Pallas Renatus said...

A bit off-topic, but you're the first person I've ever seen on the blogosphere link to Heidrick's work. I really have to encourage *everyone* to read at least the Abramelin Ramble, it's definitely worth it.

July 17, 2011 6:34 PM

Damiana and Melek Ta'us said...

Great post! Very much in line with Bertiaux's ideas regarding Luck Hoodoo spirits and the construction of an Atua.

July 17, 2011 8:58 PM

Jason Miller, said...

First is that I never said you underestimated the danger. I said you understated the danger. I think that you pretty well know the danger.

You wrote:

"I mean, come on, a demon I had in a spirit pot burned my fucking house down. It's more dangerous than that?"

Do we really need to go past that? Is that not kind of making my case? I only talk about that when you bring it up, but I mean, c'mon. That happened to a magician with years of experience and AFTER they had gained K&C of the HGA and had planetary initiations of the seven spheres!

But ok. let's set that aside.

There are dangers and there are dangers.Saying that all magic is dangerous is fine, but that doesnt mean that its all the same danger level.

Driving from my house to yours is dangerous, we need to be aware of the dangers as drivers and be capable of defensive driving, and of necessary have the right insurance when something happens. If however we decide to drive the Yungas road in a convertible, the danger level is way higher and should not be compared to the dangers posed by the Delaware Memorial Bridge.

An even better example here is people. Meeting new people is dangerous. Meeting new people that are known to do unethical and criminal things for pay is even more dangerous. Asking those people to move into your house and give them access to all your shit is REALLY dangerous.

Its not just the type of spirit that call to dwell in a pot (though in many cases that is a huge issue right there) it is the access to your life that you give long term. Some people get most of their Ngangas constructed in Africa or sometimes in Cuba or DR. Even when that is done, you still have to add dirt and items from your own home environment.

Dispelling the dead who have been sent in a curse IS a fairly easy task. Dispelling the dead who have been sent in a curse where graveyard dirt has been planted on the

victims person and home, and items from that victims person and home have been planted in said grave is more complicated. (BTW definitely don't do that. Unless you really don't like someone.)

Dispelling the dead who have been bound and chained into a pot and a persons life, in a mini universe overseen by a Nzambi, and given a full on superhero like transformation, not to mention their own familiar spirits (there is for instance almost always a dogs bones in the Nganga for hunting down targets) is a REALLY BIG DEAL.

Furthermore in some ways the victim of such a spirit would be LUCKY to have their house burn down. That is a huge wake up call. Most of the time it is slow and insidious and takes the health and persona in a long and twisted fasion that is obvious to everyone BUT the person they are doing it to.

So yeah. Dangerous.

July 17, 2011 11:02 PM

Aaron said...

Hey Frater! Great post!

I can certainly understand why folks from the ATRs are "all up in arms" over the current Westerners' interest in spirit pots (and other practices associated mainly with ancient tribal traditions). However, I honestly think they are missing the point.

Sure, we Westerners are just getting started. We're taking what we can from our own sources (like Agrippa) and we're learning what we can from the ATRs and similar contemporary sources. We do not have an unbroken tradition that comes with full community support. Thus, when we start talking about our spirit pots, the ATR folks scoff and assure us we don'w know what we're doing.

Yet, at the same time (often in the same breath) the ATR folks scoff at us because they think we Westerners don't have anything that actually works.

So when we try to learn something that actually works... we're wrong and should give it up? Bullshit. Western occultism is currently undergoing a new kind of renaissance. We've come down off our "my mysticism is holier than thine" attitude and are finally saying "Ok, we've wasted centuries, so let's start doing this right!"

Are we going to make mistakes? You bet! Some of us will burn our houses down. Some of us will have our heads eaten by the spirits we try to keep. And you know what? That's just how you ATR folks learned to do it thousands of years ago (and still do today!) - trial and error. Eventually you got it right and developed a sophisticated tradition with full community support.

By telling us Westerners to "give up the ghost" (pun intended!), you're basically saying that not only do we not have anything that works, but that we somehow have no right to try and learn and develop anything that works. And that attitude is what irks me.

In short, if you're an ATR initiate and all you can muster is "Don't to that, go back, desist!" followed with "But I can't tell you how to do it right because of my oaths" then you are of no use to me and what I'm working to build here.

July 18, 2011 3:22 AM

De heer Balthazar said...

While the bravado in this post will undoubtedly be warmly received by people on the internets - it thinly veils what is basically a profound ignorance about the subject of the dead, Rufus. Or how spiritual work with them looks and takes shape in actual practice today.

I get the sense that because you have some experience conjuring up stuff in the grimoires you believe you have a working knowledge that applies to all fields and all things. But really, as in other professions, some things are highly specialised.

And as Jason points out - the fact that your house burned down during your pot experiment (one would think) would have been ample enough indication of just how wrong this kind of thinking can be.

Hamlet says it so well:

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

July 18, 2011 9:19 AM

Rufus Opus said...

Dhr Balthazar,

It's not a thin veil at all, I believe strongly that I have a huge ignorance about the dead. I must if it's such a serious danger for everyone.

My point in this post is exactly this:

What is the big deal about working with the dead? What makes them so dangerous?

Here's my experiences, here's what I know to be the worst case scenario, and I've dealt with it and expect others to be able to as well.

What am I missing?

July 18, 2011 9:36 AM

Rufus Opus said...

And another thing, Dhr. Balthazar, I DO have a tendency to think I know everything, and when I'm writing I get caught up in the moment of the post and speak as if I'm talking about how ALL MAGIC WORKS ALL THE TIME.

And I am wrong, and I run my mouth often enough to put a caveat on the blog page about this being the RO bullshit zone.

Nevertheless, I am eager to be corrected, I really do hate being wrong.

July 18, 2011 11:34 AM

De heer Balthazar said...

Well, it's not that all the dead themselves are necessarily outright dangerous by their very nature, R.O. Nonetheless, the way in which you work with them can get very dangerous. Our discussion was about putting together muerto pots, and as I have been saying, this is something that requires for special care to be taken.

Generally speaking, the dead are a specialised area.

Which is why in the diaspora and in africa you often tend to find a class of specialists

who work with them alone, or in separated sub-system, even though there are other spirits or deities whom are the focus of the religion, such as the Orisa.

In Cuba you might say these are the paleros and more broadly the muerteros/espiritistas. Whilst the Santeros take care of the Orisa. Although, most santeros are also muerteros out of necessity because of what happened in the Diaspora during slavery. However, in addition there are other entirely separate priesthoods for the Egungun (ancestral dead) and the deified force of death, Iku, specifically. One of my godparents is an initiate in this kind of priesthood, for instance.

Similarly, in South Africa you have Nyanga and Sangoma - the Sangoma specialises in the ancestor spirits, while the Nyanga on the other hand is a general magical worker with a focus on herbal magic and medicine.

What I am saying is that in many of these traditions the dead are their own kettle of fish entirely. They are worked separately and in an entirely different way. They tend to have their own set of rules and taboos even though they are almost always considered the corner stone or foundation of the ATR systems. In certain sense you are basically working with the principal of death which, you know, is kinda a big deal if you think about it a bit.

July 18, 2011 12:02 PM

Anonymous said...

I Find it rather humorous that you are such a spiritual BADASS when it comes to Goetic demons and shades of the dead. Yet you are scared of your own "shadow" and find it necessary to bind you evil genius in lead by the power of Saturn.

So my question is y so srs?

Is your evil genius that much more scary / dangerous than a demon or might dead? After all the genius is part of yourself and should in theory be more easily controlled, no?

July 18, 2011 1:06 PM

Rufus Opus said...

@Anonymous,

You are coming from a Jungian/psychological interpretation of magic that is largely

useless when you get out of the armchair and into the conjure ring.

Magic is not psychology.

The Evil Daimon is not your "shadow," it is not "part of yourself," in the way you use the terms.

It is specifically the entity that creates obstacles and disruptions that stand in the way of accomplishing the intended goals of any idea that manifests in the material realm. You get its name from the electional or natal chart for the moment of manifestation.

If you understood the nature and the potential of this entity, you would also understand the value of binding it in lead.

July 18, 2011 1:41 PM

Jason Miller, said...

So sum up my own thoughts:

1: Its not the type of spirit. Its the mode of working. Making something a permanent part of your life and giving it full backstage access is dangerous no matter what being it is you are working with.

2: I am not saying not to do it, or not study the way that ATRs do it and use some of the tools they do. I am saying to do it smart and with as much understanding as you can and KNOW That if you are outside a tradition than you are not doing something that is inside the tradition. Its that simple. There is a freedom that comes with that, that I LOVE, but there is also a danger that comes with it.

July 18, 2011 3:02 PM

Anonymous said...

I wouldn't exactly consider myself an armchair magician, however I have only ventured so far as angelic/planetary spirits and intelligences. However other than a few references on your blog I have never read of the Evil Daemon. Maybe after the spirit pot issue dies down you can dedicate a post to explain the nature of this being compared to that of a goetic daemon.

July 18, 2011 5:43 PM

Rufus Opus said...

@Anon: I replied to Fr. Acher about that in a comment on the Daimon Trap post.

You got a mention in that comment too. :)

"Goetic" refers to a type of magic that was primarily Chthonic and dealt with denizens of the underworld. It included, but wasn't limited to necromancy.

The evil daimon of the natal chart is your personal adversary. He makes bad situations worse. He tries to impede your progress towards your purpose for incarnating. He also tries to distract you from the Great Work with vain desires and conceits.

In your daily life, it's the entity who embodies your own personal bad luck. Binding it doesn't eliminate bad luck, but it keeps it from being overwhelming.

July 18, 2011 5:52 PM

Aaron said...

So if this discussion is about working with the dead, and that being a specialized practice, what exactly does it have to do with R.O.'s Bune spirit pot? Bune isn't one of the mighty dead, he is a non-human spirit linked directly to an astrological force. So all of this warning over working with the dead doesn't apply - which leave us with the question of what really went wrong with R.O.'s spirit pot. (I think he explained that in another blog, or perhaps it was over on Solomonic.)

BTW - you folks asking about the "Evil Daimon" can learn how to find out the name of yours here:

http://aaronleitch.wordpress.com/2011/02/10/angelical-names-and-the-tables-of-ziruph/

The concept of the Nativity Angel seems to appear first (in literature) in Plato's "Myth of Er", where each re-incarnating soul chooses an Angel to be its guardian. (This is NOT the same as the HGA of Abramelin.)

I'm not sure when the concept of an evil counterpart to your Nativity Angel came about. However, it still exists in our modern culture. The little Angel and Demon that sit on your shoulders and try to convince you to do the right or wrong thing - that is

your Nativity Angel and Demon. When you spill salt and cast some over your left shoulder, it is done to blind that Demon.

Agrippa outlines a way of find the names of the Angel and Demon - which I provide along with examples in the above linked post.

July 19, 2011 3:42 AM

Jason Miller, said...

For me, the issue is not at all about working with the dead. I mentioned repeatedly that it is about mode of working. Building a long term access point for a spirit that is filled with links from your life can be quite rewarding, but it can also be dangerous. Some beings are more difficult than others. A Naga Khang in Tibetan Buddhism for instance needs to be treated with so much finesse and care that it is almost a guarantee that you will have some mis-step along the way that will piss off the Naga.

July 19, 2011 9:46 PM

Aaron said...

Jason: Ok, so building a spirit pot (for the dead or any spirit) can be rewarding as well as dangerous. And I get that your issue is over "mode of working." So what I'm asking is what you see as wrong with the mode of working in, for example, Frater RO's spirit pot?

And, please, don't say things like "because all the objects have to be washed in Omiero." We're not talking ATR Ngangas here, but Western spirit pots - like the Solomonic Brass Vessel. I doubt the author of the Goetia ever heard of Omiero. ;)

July 20, 2011 5:44 PM

Jason Miller, said...

I would never say anything like that. I was one of the people RO consulted when he built the pot. If I am not mistaken, I think its how we met. I have containers that are

similar.

There is nothing wrong with the mode of working inherently, only in the relationship between magician and spirit. The tendency is to get comfy and cozy with the spirit and forget its nature.

It would be the same if you had a gangster living with you. He might be really cool and nice 90% of the time. He might be downright charming. That doesn't negate the other 10% of the time when he is dangerous and immoral and would fuck you over if it suited him.

I never said not to build one, or that RO shouldnt be writing about it, or anything at all like that. I thought that he underplayed the dangers of them. Just because something is dangerous doesnt mean you shouldnt work with it, it just means that you should know the dangers.

I know a few Paleros with very properly consecrated Prendas and totally legit initiations that I would say are obsessed by their muerto as well, so from my perspective, that doesnt have too much to do with it.

As to what specifically went wrong with the specific Bune working, I can draw conclusions from conversations I have had with RO both on the net and in person, as well as posts he made at that time that were not directly related, but those conclusions might be wrong. It caused a lot of pain to him and his family, and I am not going to stand back and issue judgement.

I will say that despite the spectacular outcome, it was a great piece of magic. It should also be pointed out that it was not a failed piece of magic, it did what he asked. It just did it in the most fucked up way possible

July 20, 2011 11:27 PM

Discussions on Y so Srs

Ok, so comments on Y so Srs? have provided good feedback that I think should get more traffic than they'll see if they stay in the comments section. I've pulled together the highlights to give the audience members who only read the posts a chance to see that there's more going on than just what gets posted. And to give advice from others in case my ignorance is more dangerous than I think.

First, I might be totally wrong in all this. One indicator is that someone said I was "in line with Bertiaux's ideas."

Twitch.

But besides that, I've been thinking about my approach to danger, too. I've been through some traumatic stuff as part of my explorations and experimentations, and I'm a bit jaded. Maybe, just maybe, the shit I had to deal with would have been avoided if I'd received proper instruction. Maybe the danger I see as a normal risk of magic isn't really normal.

But I have kind of a mad scientist aesthetic to my Work. Sometimes the whole lab blows up

when Igor flips the switch. It's sort of where we're at in this process of revitalizing the Western traditions. As Aaron Letich says in the comments: Western occultism is currently undergoing a new kind of renaissance. We've come down off our "my mysticism is holier than thine" attitude and are finally saying "Ok, we've wasted centuries, so let's start doing this right!"

Are we going to make mistakes? You bet! Some of us will burn our houses down. Some of us will have our heads eaten by the spirits we try to keep. And you know what? That's just how you ATR folks learned to do it thousands of years ago (and still do today!) - trial and error. Eventually you got it right and developed a sophisticated tradition with full community support.And there's a lot that I don't know, too. Conjureman Ali points out the following fascinating stuff that I really wish I understood better:I must disagree with your speculation on the nfumbe of the Palero. The spirit that is placed within the Prenda goes through a nigromantic process that produces a powerful spirit that is akin to a non-blood ancestor, imbued with the power of the Rada and becomes a powerful force of magic and guidance. It is more similar to a HGA then the resltess dead. So with that useful feedback, I'm going to go back and do some more research. Based on what I know about the HGA and the Supernatural Assistant of the grimoires and the Greek Magical Papyri, I have a better understanding, but I'm sure there's more to it that I'm missing.

And getting back to the subject of danger, Jason's comments about how there's danger, and then there's danger helped me understand what he was getting at:Dispelling the dead who have been sent in a curse IS a fairly easy task. Dispelling the dead who have been sent in a curse where graveyard dirt has been planted on the victims person and home, and items from that victims person and home have been planted in said grave is more complicated. (BTW definitely don't do that. Unless you really don't like someone.)

Dispelling the dead who have been bound and chained into a pot and a persons life, in a mini universe overseen by a Nzambi, and given a full on superhero like transformation, not to mention their own familiar spirits (there is for instance almost always a dogs bones in the Nganga for hunting down targets) is a REALLY BIG DEAL.

Furthermore in some ways the victim of such a spirit would be LUCKY to have their house burn down. That is a huge wake up call. Most of the time it is slow and insidious and takes the health and persona in a long and twisted fasion that is obvious to everyone BUT the person they are doing it to. So playing with the dead can be more dangerous than your average magic, and you should be careful.

And finally, there's Dhr. Balthazar's comment from this morning:

Well, it's not that all the dead themselves are necessarily outright dangerous by their very nature, R.O. Nonetheless, the way in which you work with them can get very dangerous. Our discussion was about putting together muerto pots, and as I have been saying, this is something that requires for special care to be taken.

Generally speaking, the dead are a specialised area.

Which is why in the diaspora and in Africa you often tend to find a class of specialists who work with them alone, or in separated sub-system, even though there are other spirits or

deities whom are the focus of the religion, such as the Orisa.

In Cuba you might say these are the paleros and more broadly the muerteros/espiritistas. Whilst the Santeros take care of the Orisa. Although, most santeros are also muerteros out of necessity because of what happened in the Diaspora during slavery. However, in addition there are other entirely separate priesthoods for the Egungun (ancestral dead) and the deified force of death, Iku, specifically. One of my godparents is an initiate in this kind of priesthood, for instance.

Similarly, in South Africa you have Nyanga and Sangoma - the Sangoma specialises in the ancestor spirits, while the Nyanga on the other hand is a general magical worker with a focus on herbal magic and medicine.

What I am saying is that in many of these traditions the dead are their own kettle of fish entirely. They are worked separately and in an entirely different way. They tend to have their own set of rules and taboos even though they are almost always considered the corner stone or foundation of the ATR systems. In certain sense you are basically working with the principal of death which, you know, is kinda a big deal if you think about it a bit. And he's right. I don't specialize in the dead. To me, necromancy is a part of the overall Hermetic Great Work, but not the entirety of the thing. In my practice, knowing how to commune with the dead is enough for my creative work with them, and knowing how to help them out the door when they've overstayed their welcome is the rest of it.

If you want to work the Dead through a spirit pot, you can experiment and take the risks involved, or hold off until you have someone you know and trust who can teach you and be there to clean up any messes you might make of things.

...

Valeyard said...

I've appreciated the discussion thus far - especially because it's really made me think and examine (even quietly fill in a few holes in my daily practice). That's what healthy debate provides and it's sadly lacking in many occult forums. Thanks folks...from the new weird guy.

July 18, 2011 6:07 PM

ConjureMan Ali said...

Balthazar brings up a good point, working with the dead or the necormantic aspects of the ATRs often are highly specialized. To greater or lesser degrees various initiates will specialize in working with the dead.

These individuals often appear as mediums and such. However, I am compelled to point out that the lines are not always as clear as he makes them out to be.

For example the comparision of the Palero as dealing with the dead and the Santero dealing with Orisa (with many also dealing with the dead) does not exactly align as the two traditions aren't always comparable. In fact it is more accurate to compare Paleros to Paleros and Santeros to Santeros as this will be in alignment with the traditions that

inspire and inform these practices.

The Palero in addition to being a necromancer, for example, also deals with the elemental and primal deities of their religion through the kimpungulu, they are as much a priest as the Santero. Conversely as he pointed out many Santeros also are workers of the dead.

And that's the point. Both of these traditions have a healthy respect for the dead and their power. They are only approached through proper instruction, guidance, and only after or alongside working with the tempering and cooling force of the deities (like the Orisa) and the ancestors.

In my opinion a similar initiation exists in Western Occult Tradition as found via the HGA and similar concepts. If the dead is to be worked with in western occultism it should only be done through the instruction of once's guiding daimon and a teacher of necromancy.

I must say though, Frater, you certainly know how to spark discourse.

July 18, 2011 10:40 PM

De heer Balthazar said...

Ali, is right. Palo is an entire system with it's own deific powers working through the prenda. Although it has a distinct necromantic thrust. It's extremely complicated.

What complicates it EVEN further is that in our line , for instance, Santeros are instructed to receive initiation as Paleros based on who their crowned Orisha is! Usually, if a warrior Orisa is crowned to their head.

So in some sense these systems also get intertwined...

Yet, they are always worked totally separately and with different means.

July 19, 2011 2:13 AM

Austin said...

Thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. As one of the Baron's illegitimate children, it's a topic near and dear to my heart.

If I might add to the points made thus far-

As a friend once pointed out to me, 21st century N. Americans, as a whole, have the least connection to the dead of virtually any people in history. If you're new to working with the dead, start by honoring them rather than trying to cram them into pots.

Reserve an altar for your genetic ancestors as well as those who have come before you in the path you tread. Your lineage, in whatever sense you understand it. Leave some goodies there and meditate at appropriate times. Day/Hour of Saturn is a good start, astrological election involving Saturn and Pluto = better. Lunar eclipses on the Tail are also sweet for working with the dead.

As far as whats dangerous and what ain't- so much seems to be matter of your natural trajectory as a magician. If the dead are a rank/type of spirits that call out to you, great. Work with them. If you like angels, super. Devils your cup of tea? Sweet. And so on.

As we develop, we find we have affinities for certain families and classes of spirits. I wouldn't recommend half of what I do with planetary spirits to other people, but I'm an astrologer, I live and breathe planetary action. But there's plenty of shit people I know do "safely" that I won't touch with a 12ft pole. Affinity and experience are important.

Finally, I'm a little surprised no one's brought up the hungry ghost/preta angle on the dead, or Chinese opinions and practices. I know the african-diaspora stuff is cool, but they're not the only culture(s) that's been working steady with the dead. Read up on Chinese funereal rites. Or better yet, go to Chinatown and get yourself some Hell money!

PS Rufus, did you time your post to coincide with the Full Moon in (Saturn-ruled) Capricorn, or were you just the planet's unwitting slave?

July 20, 2011 2:26 AM

Ngawang said...

Here's a somewhat off-topic question, or idea.For a long time, I've suspected that groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses (I was born as one) serve as, basically, a means for parasitic spirits to have a large number of people from whom they can leach vitality. I say this because, in that religion, at least, the members are ALWAYS nervous, depressed, mentally and physically broken-down. The prevalence of chronic mental and physical disorders (but primarily mental ones - EVERYONE Is on antidepressants or tranquilizers or lots and lots of booze) is sky-high.Anyone else think there's any credence to this?

July 20, 2011 6:02 PM