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WallmanSupporting Member

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I Love Pizza!

Re: Tom Lehmann's NY StylePizza

« Reply #380 on: April 03, 2006, 10:07:08 PM

»

« Last Edit: April 03, 2006, 10:17:02 PM by Wallman »

Here are two Lehmann long-rise (4 day) dough balls after warming on thecounter for about 3 hours.

lehmannlongrise-dough.jpg (33.92 kB, 640x480 - viewed 1711 times.)

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Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.380.html

1 of 17 26/05/2013 05:48 p.m.


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« Reply #381 on: April 03, 2006, 10:15:37 PM

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Here are two cooked long-rise Lehmann pizzas. They were baked on ascreen and finished on tiles The first is prosciutto di parma, sauted peppersand onions and fresh mozz. The second is mushrooms, sauted peppers andonions and a mix of Polly-O whole milk and Kraft part-skim mozz. As youcan see, there is a strange hole in the second pizza. I got a little carriedaway on the topping and the pie tore leaving a sticky mess on the screen(third photo). Still, the pizza tasted good! The rule less is more still plays!

lehmannlongrise-1.jpg (47.32 kB, 640x480 - viewed 1714 times.)


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Pete-zzaLifetime Member

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« Reply #382 on: April 03, 2006, 10:41:20 PM

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3 of 17 26/05/2013 05:48 p.m.

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Wally,

From what I have read from pizza operators who post on the PMQ ThinkTank, it is best not to load down the center of the pizza. To begin with, thecenter is often the thinnest part of the dough. It's also often the last part ofthe pizza to cook and when things melt the direction of the juices andmelting cheeses, floating pepperoni, etc., is toward the center of the pie. Asa result of all these forces, the center of the pizza can get pretty messy andstick to a screen and be difficult to dislodge using a metal peel or other tool.Having experienced this phenomenon myself, I am now careful not to havethe dough in the middle too thin and I keep the toppings away from deadcenter. It's also important to dress the pizza quickly before the sauce has achance to migrate into the dough. If that happens at the center, there is anincreased risk of the pizza sticking to the screen.

The pizzas look great notwithstanding the minor mishap with the secondpizza. From the photos you have posted on the Lehmann pizzas, your resultsseem to be getting better with each pizza. Congratulations.

Peter

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« Reply #383 on: April 03, 2006, 10:49:19 PM

»

Thanks for the kind words Pete. I must say, I owe most of my success toyour suggestions! I was really impressed how good the pizza tasted after 4days in the fridge. The long-rise really made the dough taste good. I hadbeen making dough one or two days in advance, but I think I will back up tothree or four days.

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« Reply #384 on: April 04, 2006, 11:49:29 AM

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Wally,

I'd like to make a couple of collateral points in respect of your extending theshelf life of your Lehmann dough by adding a bit of sugar to it. It is true thatusing a bit of sugar can extend the utilization of the dough but there is apractical limit to doing this and you can't simply add more and more sugarhoping to push the dough out farther and farther. The reason for this is thatthere are enzymes in the dough, mainly protease enzymes, that act duringthe fermentation of the dough to soften the gluten. At some point, the glutenwill become so soft, and water can be released from the dough, that you canend up with a gummy and slack dough that will not bake well in the oven.

In theory, you could slow down the action of the protease enzymes byadding more salt, which degrades protease enzyme performance, but theLehmann formulation already has 1.75% salt in it, which is fairly substantial.That is still less than the 2.5-3% levels common in room-temperaturefermented Neapolitan doughs, but it is still high nonetheless. I would ratheruse less yeast, colder water and/or a lower hydration, along with a bit ofsugar for insurance, to achieve a longer shelf life for the Lehmann dough.Even then, it's possible that you won't get an accompanying increase inflavor, especially if the biochemical activity doesn't result in materially moreflavor-enhancing byproducts of fermentation. In other words, you could end


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up with an "older" dough but not a better tasting crust.

Peter

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« Reply #385 on: April 04, 2006, 04:20:37 PM

»

Interesting points Pete. It is facinating the the lower yeast makes the doughbetter. I definitely don't want old, tasteless dough. I'm going to try againwith a 3-4 day cold rise, and see how it comes out.

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JF_Aidan_PrydeRegistered User

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« Reply #386 on: April 05, 2006, 09:12:31 AM

»

Pete,I experienced the enzymes breaking down the dough problem many times.After leaving a preferment dough in the fridge for almost a week, it lost allstrength and pulled like taffy once it hit room temperature. It's a completeuseless mess. Other than throwing it out, the only way to salvage the doughis to use it as a starter. But make sure you use a disproportionate amount offresh flour and water, or else it will just make more taffy like dough.

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« Reply #387 on: April 05, 2006, 11:39:26 AM

»

In thinking about the softness of the dough after 4 days, I'd say I may havebeen close but I was definitely not over the edge. The dough was pretty softand very extensible, but not taffy-like or hard to handle. I was able to toss itwithout any problem. Now, I don't think I would go longer than 4 daysbecause as you can see from the photos of the dough, the balls had risenpretty high (remember they had been on the counter for at least 3 hours atabout 70-75 F room temp.) and I can easily see how they could get too soft. However, the flavor, to my palate, was very good at 4 days.

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« Reply #388 on: April 05, 2006, 08:03:23 PM

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James,

I thought you might be interested in knowing that within the pizza industryin the U.S., a common practice among pizza operators for “old” dough, aka“scrap”, is to incorporate it into a new dough at a rate of 15-25%, with 15%being considered “safe”. If the dough has been refrigerated for its entirefermentation, for example, for a few days, and hasn’t “blown”(overfermented), then the 25% figure should work. If the dough has spent afair amount of time at room temperature, then 15% is perhaps the better


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figure to use. If the dough has “blown”, even 15% may be too high. But itshould still work and add a lot of flavor to the new dough. When I used todo this sort of thing with old dough, I used to refer to the process as“resuscitation” since the dough was just about on its deathbed.

If the above advice is followed for a Lehmann dough, which has only a smallamount of yeast to begin with, then it may be prudent to use the normalamount of yeast in the “new” dough. This is one of those cases where youmay have to do some experimenting. Other doughs with differentformulations may require other kinds of adjustments.

Peter

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« Reply #389 on: May 24, 2006, 09:00:30 PM

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Recently, with temperatures hovering in the 90s in the Dallas area, I decidedto attempt my first “summertime” version of the Lehmann NY style pizza. By“summertime version”, I mean a Lehmann NY style pizza that is bakedentirely on a pizza screen rather than on a stone that requires a long preheat.As regular followers of this thread know, the Lehmann NY style pizza isintended to be baked on a hearth-like refractory (stone) surface, which isfairly standard for a NY style. However, when outside temperatures are in the90s, I am not particularly anxious to preheat my oven and pizza stone for anhour at around 500-550 degrees F, and keep my kitchen hot for another houror so as the stone cools down after the pizza has been baked. With a pizzascreen, I only need to preheat the oven to the desired temperature (in mycase, around 500-550 degrees F) and then bake the pizza. That preheat timecomes to around 10 minutes with my standard kitchen oven. And once thepizza is baked, the oven cools down quickly (at roughly the same rate as itwas heated).

With the above objective in mind, I took the following steps. First, asindicated above, I used only a pizza screen and a normal oven preheat.Second, I used a bit of sugar in the dough. Except where a dough is to lastbeyond 48 hours, sugar is not normally included in the basic Lehmann NYstyle dough formulation. The reason for this exclusion is because a doughwith sugar baked directly on a very hot stone surface can prematurely brownor char on the bottom before the rest of the pizza has finished baking.However, even Tom L. acknowledges that this is not a problem when screensare used, particularly in a home setting, and, in addition, the presence of thesugar will facilitate and enhance browning of the finished crust, which is adesirable contribution. So, I decided to use 1% sugar. Third, I decided topre-bake the crust before dressing it and finishing the baking. I took thisstep in the hopes of achieving a more crispy crust--which is difficult to dowhen a screen is used--by effectively extending the total bake time, allowingthe crust to bake longer without fear that it will be done before the cheesesand toppings are finished baking. As part of the pre-bake step, I also dockedthe undressed pizza skin with a docking tool to minimize the formation ofbubbles in the crust during baking. For those not familiar with what such atool looks like, see the first photo below. I might add that it is not necessaryto use a docking tool per se. The same effect can be achieved using a simplekitchen fork.

The final dough formulation I used, for a 16-inch pizza, was as follows:

100%, High-gluten flour (KASL), 12.65 oz. (358.39 g.), 3 c. plus 2 t.(spoon, scoop and level technique)63%, Water*, 7.96 oz. (225.79 g.), a bit less than 1 c.1%, Sugar, 0.13 oz. (3.58 g.), a bit less than 1 t.


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1%, Oil, 0.13 oz. (3.58 g.), a bit more than 3/4 t.1.75%, Salt, 0.22 oz. (6.27 g.), 1 1/8 t.0.25%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.03 oz. (0.90 g.), a bit less than 1/3 t.* Temperature adjusted to achieve a finished dough temperature of 75-80degrees FTotal dough weight = 21.11 oz. (598.51 g)Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105Note: all measurements are standard U.S./metric

The processing of the dough was accomplished using a standard KitchenAidstand mixer and the following basic sequence: Salt and sugar dissolved inthe water in the bowl of the mixer; IDY mixed in with the flour and graduallyadded to the salt/sugar brine and mixed/kneaded at Stir speed until a roughdough ball is formed; oil added and kneaded in (about 2 minutes at Stirspeed); dough kneaded for about an additional 6 minutes at 2 speed; a finalminute of hand kneading; coat the dough ball with a bit of oil and place in acontainer (covered) and directly into the refrigerator. (Note: for beginningpizza makers, the procedures I followed are essentially those described atthis thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.0.html).

The dough remained in the refrigerator for about 24 hours. It was thenremoved, placed on a lightly floured work surface, covered with a bit ofbench flour and a sheet of plastic wrap, and allowed to warm up at roomtemperature for about 2 hours. The dough was then stretched and shapedinto a 16-inch round, docked with the docking tool, and placed onto the16-inch pizza screen. Note that the docking is done before placing the skinonto the screen. Otherwise, the skin might stick to the screen by beingforced into the crevices and/or scratch the screen itself. After 24 hours, thedough handled very easily, with a nice balance between extensibility andelasticity. The undressed/docked skin was placed in the oven, which hadbeen preheated to around 500-550 degrees F for about 10-15 minutes. Thehigher temperature was selected on the theory that some of the oven heatwould be lost once I opened the oven door to place the undressed skin intothe oven. The skin was baked until it became firm and the rim of the doughexpanded to the normal size, a period of almost two minutes. For purposesof the pre-bake, I used the lowest oven rack position.

I then removed the pre-baked skin, dressed it (with sauce, cheeses andpepperoni), and placed it back in the oven--without the screen this time--tofinish baking. That took about 5-6 minutes, also on the lowest oven rackposition. By the end of that time, the bottom of the crust had browned butthe cheeses and the top crust needed additional bake time. So, I removedthe pizza to the top oven rack position and exposed the pizza to about aminute or two of direct heat from the broiler element. That step also helpedfurther brown the top crust at the rim.

The photos below show the finished results. I would describe the effort as asuccess, especially for an initial effort, although I believe that improvementis possible by modifying the basic dough formulation a bit and making a fewchanges to the baking methodology, as discussed below. The pizza itself wasvery tasty, with a nice open and airy crumb, and with the usual softness andchewiness characteristic of the NY style. I would have liked a bit morecrispiness of the crust although there was some at the rim. Overall, however,I would say that the results were very good, and the total oven time, fromstart to finish, was less than a half hour. As an interesting side note, I mightmention that I couldn’t tell from the finished pizza that the crust waspre-baked. The finished pizza looked and tasted like any other prepared inthe standard way.

For my next “summertime” Lehmann NY style pizza, I plan to do thefollowing: 1) reduce or eliminate the sugar, 2) use a lower thickness factor(e.g., 0.10), and 3) use the middle oven rack position and/or use a loweroven temperature (to allow a longer and slower overall bake and improve the


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chances of getting a crispier crust). I might even extend the fermentationtime to 48 hours or more. The other steps would essentially remain thesame.

Peter

Docker.JPG (77.28 kB, 550x412 - viewed 1563 times.)

Leh Screen 1.JPG (123.11 kB, 550x412 - viewed 1557 times.)


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« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 05:17:56 PM by Pete-zza »

Leh Screen Slice 2.JPG (94.42 kB, 550x412 - viewed 1564 times.)

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abcRegistered User

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« Reply #390 on: May 28, 2006, 07:13:22 PM

»

i too have long worried about the summertime downside after enjoying somepizza making... last yr bet. July and Aug. i barely made anything, losing outon two good months of basil season. Today it was humid and 80degrees andI made a 16" from some old, perhaps 2 months in the freezer dough.

I had to keep the range hood on max to try and exhaust the hot oven heat...

your experiment w/ only having to use the oven for 30min is stunning. buti'm hard pressed to consider having pizza done w/o a stone because afterhaving discovered a stone yrs ago, how could i go back.

Anyway, my old freezer dough thawed over night and i let it sit 2 hrs thismorning on my kitchen counter. When i stretched it, it felt very very elasticand would have readily absorbed a lot of bench flour had i not resisted to. Imanaged to stretch it out to a 16" pie, but this is not the dough feel I'dideally have.

As usual these days, I parbake, and the end result charred very well and tomy pleasure a thin delicate crackle (not hard crunch) still existed in thefinished product. Not too much rise in the dough, I noticed. Though therewere nice air pockets, tt was borderline dense in some spots on the rim.

fresh sauce from my freezer, fresh basil and garlic... combo of fresh mozzand low moisture mozz, onions, mushrooms and black olives.


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IMG_6116 (788 x 591).jpg (127.96 kB, 788x591 - viewed 1470 times.)



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« Reply #391 on: May 28, 2006, 08:34:30 PM

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11 of 17 26/05/2013 05:48 p.m.

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abc,

With temperatures recently close to 100 degrees in the Dallas area, myNapoletano and Genovese basil plants have seen their growth stunted, evenwhen I have watered them regularly and kept them in the shade as much aspossible. And summer has yet to arrive. It has occurred to me more thanonce that the summer months may better be spent trying out the pizzas fromall the local pizzerias and letting them bear the burden of the summer heat. Imay do some of that but I still like the idea of making my own pizzas fromtime to time. It's part of the addiction, I guess. And I remain confident that Iwill resolve the thermodynamic issues at some point and produce anacceptable "summertime" version of the Lehmann NY style using only a pizzascreen and short bake times.

I am always intrigued to hear about pizzas made from frozen dough, as Iwas in your case, because I invariably learn something from suchexperiences. I believe that it is possible to make a decent frozen dough--if itis made with that intention from the start--but I am much less sanguinewhen the frozen dough is frozen leftover dough. Very little good--beyondconvenience--comes from freezing dough. Freezing kills some of the yeast,which may already be in short supply in a leftover dough, and the defrosteddough may have a lot of glutathione (an amino acid released from the yeastcells) such that the dough is slack and gummy--and will tempt you to addmore flour to overcome that condition--and result in a mediocre oven springand a flat, somewhat lackluster crust. Unless the pizza is baked for a longtime, it will often have a light finished crust. Moreover, during the freezing ofthe dough there is no fermentation whatsoever. So there are no compoundsformed during freezing that can contribute to better flavor in the finishedcrust. My experience is that the older the frozen dough, especially in a homefreezer that cycles on a repetitive basis, the worse the dough will performwhen defrosted and used. Hence, a frozen dough is best used within a shorttime after being frozen.

Thanks again, abc, for posting your results.

Peter

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abcRegistered User

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« Reply #392 on: May 30, 2006, 09:40:50 PM

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Peter... with regards to your potential 'summer lehmann' dough... why notmake it a 'summer 18" dough'?

Thought I recall that your trials with such a diameter required both screentime and stone time, screen time to set the crust, then finishing time on thestone, despite the pie extending beyond your 16" stone.

If you're aiming for a stoneless pizza, how about as well making it a 18"start to finish screen episode?

I know for me, I too did a screen to stone kind of deal when i made a 18"but more so only because I felt really dependent on stone time for my crustbottom.

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« Reply #393 on: May 30, 2006, 09:52:16 PM

»abc,

I hadn't thought of doing an 18" since the 16" has pretty much become mystandard Lehmann size. However, if I can make a decent "summer" 16", Ishould be able to make an 18" also.

Peter

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abilakRegistered User

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« Reply #394 on: May 31, 2006, 01:16:05 PM

»

Hey man, how much did they charge you for that 17x20 stone?

Quote from: Crusty on February 27, 2005, 02:38:41 PM

My oven thermometer that is placed on the stone indicated about 550. My oven guagegoes up to 500 then the next stop is broil. I set the knob to almost broil to get to this level.

Also, my stone is from bakingstone.com and is custom cut to 17"x20".

Crusty

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« Reply #395 on: May 31, 2006, 03:43:23 PM

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abilak,

Crusty is not an active member and it is also possible that the charge for the17" x 20" Fibrament stone has changed since Crusty posted on his stone. Toget the latest price for a 17" x 20" stone, I called AWMCO and inquired(1-773-846-1760).

Unless you buy a standard size stone such as set forth athttp://www.bakingstone.com/order.php, there is a custom cutting chargeapplied. In the case of a 17" x 20" stone, AWMCO would have to cut it froman 18" x 24" stone, which is one of the standard size stones and retails for$80. The custom cutting charge would be an extra $10, for a total of $90(shipping included). It sounds like the $10 custom cutting charge is fairlystandard, but to be certain in any single instance it is perhaps wise to call oremail AWMCO to get an actual quote.

If you are thinking about a stone for a home oven, you will want to be surethat the stone will fit your oven, with the door shut, of course (some ovendoors protrude into the oven space). Usually you will also want to allow a bitof space around the stone for the oven air to circulate. This is less of aproblem for a round stone rather than a rectangular stone, especially onethat uses up a lot of oven space. An advantage of a large rectangular stone isthat you can also bake things like long breads (e.g., baguettes) as well aspizzas.

If you are serious about a stone and plan to do a lot of baking using it, mypersonal advice is to get a size that will allow you to bake the largest sizepizza you plan to make. If you have read some of my posts on this thread,you will see that I often use both a screen and a stone when I want to make


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« Last Edit: May 31, 2006, 03:54:28 PM by Pete-zza »

the larger size pizzas--16" and above (with a max of 18"). I do this becausemy stone alone is not big enough to accommodate anything larger than 14".It wasn't until I decided I wanted to make larger pizzas--like the 16" and 18"Lehmann pies--that it occurred to me that a larger stone would have beenbetter.

If price is an issue, then you might want to investigate using unglazed quarrytiles. If you do a search on the forum, using the search function, you willfind a lot of information on that choice. There are also other types of stonesthat are cheaper than the Fibrament stones but the size options will usuallybe a lot fewer.

Peter

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« Reply #396 on: June 01, 2006, 02:46:31 PM

»

Thanks Pete, I ended up ordering the following from restaurantsource.net :Huge pizza's are cool and I may get a larger 17-18" screen in the future.. fornow, 15" pizza's are fine for me!

Quantity Price Description-------------------------------------------------------------- 1 $28.80 American Metalcraft - Pizza Stones - 15-3/4" round dia.x 7/8" thick - PS1575 1 $17.40 American Metalcraft - Standard Pizza Peels - 16" x 17"blade 18" handle - 3616--------------------------------------------------------------Subtotal: $46.20Tax: $0.00Shipping: $9.95 Smallware Shipping - from Restaurant SourceEquipment &Supplies--------------------------------------------------------------Total: $56.15

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« Reply #397 on: June 02, 2006, 10:06:20 AM

»

Here is one I cranked out last night

3 3/4 cu Pillsbury "Better for bread" flourslightly more than 1 cu water2 1/2 tsp salt1 tsp olive oil1/2 tsp fleishmann's "rapid rise" yeast

Made dough in cuisinart mixer, all dry ingred. then water slowly (roomtemp). added oil half-way through.seperated into 2 balls, hand kneaded each for 2 mins.placed in stainless bowl tossed w/ OO in frig for 48hrs.let sit a room temp for 1 hour before using.

here is the finished product. tasty.


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ball.jpg (42 kB, 502x466 - viewed 1440 times.)

toppings.jpg (68.27 kB, 436x502 - viewed 1419 times.)


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pizzdone.jpg (98.07 kB, 602x459 - viewed 1432 times.)

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Posts: 116

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The FL Pizza Man


« Reply #398 on: June 02, 2006, 10:07:59 AM

»

Oh yeah, pre-heated 14 3/4" stone for 1 hour, each pizza was about 14" orsoCooked for about 7 mins, give or take.I like a crispy crunchy crust.

I was just using stuff I had around the house.I plan on getting some KASL flour and Fleishmann's IDY soon.

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« Reply #399 on: June 02, 2006, 10:38:03 AM

»

abilak,

Very nice looking pizza. The Pillsbury bread flour is one that Tom Lehmannhimself recommends to people who do not have access to higher-glutenflours. I am also pleased to see that the food processor approach workedwell for you. I think the food processor is an underappreciated machine formaking pizza doughs, especially for small batches. The key things to keep inmind is to use cold water (to offset the heat produced by the whirling blade)and not overknead the dough.

If you plan to make a lot of pizzas you might want to invest in a 1-lb. bag ofIDY, either the Fleischmann's or the SAF Red. These brands are often sold at


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« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 03:15:13 PM by Pete-zza »

the big-box places like Sam's and Costco. The prices there are far lower thanelsewhere and you save on shipping charges, which can sometimes be ashigh as the cost of the IDY itself.

Peter

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