William E. Eddins-Deposition of Investigator Randy Crowder From State Attorney Bill Eddins Office--Illegal Bonus Scheme of Bill Eddins EXPOSED by candidate for Okaloosa County Sheriff,

file:///C|/Documents%20and%20Settings/dels/Desktop/Depos/Crowder%20Depo.txt

DEPOSITION OF RANDY B. CROWDER 03/18/10

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT IN AND FOR OKALOOSA COUNTY, FLORIDA _______________________________________________

STATE OF FLORIDA,

Plaintiff,

vs. CASE NO.: 2009-CF-1481

JAMES DAVID YACKS,

Defendant.

_______________________________________________/

DEPOSITION OF RANDY B. CROWDER

Taken on Behalf of the Defendants

DATE TAKEN: Thursday, March 18th, 2010 TIME: 10:08 a.m. - 4:15 p.m. PLACE: Anchor Court Reporting 229 South Baylen Street Pensacola, Florida 32502

Examination of the Witness reported by:

file:///C|/Documents%20and%20Settings/dels/Desktop/Depos/Crowder%20Depo.txt (1 of 388)8/13/2010 3:37:57 PM


Pamela Dee Elliott, Florida Professional Reporter Notary Public, State of Florida

ANCHOR COURT REPORTING 229 South Baylen Street Pensacola, Florida 32502

www.anchorreporters.com (850)432-2511




2

1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 3 RUSSELL G. EDGAR, ESQUIRE 4 Assistant State Attorney M.C. Blanchard Judicial Building 5 Pensacola, Florida 32502

6 FOR THE DEFENDANT JAMES DAVID YACKS: 7 NICKOLAS G. PETERSEN, ESQUIRE 8 Chesser and Barr 1201 Eglin Parkway 9 Shalimar, Florida 32579

10 FOR THE DEFENDANT MICHAEL COUP: 11 JAMES MURRAY, ESQUIRE 12 and JULIA O. MURRAY, ESQUIRE Attorneys at Law 13 420 East Pine Avenue Crestview, Florida 32536 14

15 FOR THE DEFENDANT SANDRA NORRIS:

16 CHRISTOPHER JOHN KLOTZ, ESQUIRE Attorney at Law 17 P.O. Box 12906 Pensacola, Florida 32591-2906 18

19 COURT REPORTER:



20 PAMELA DEE ELLIOTT, FPR ANCHOR COURT REPORTING 21 229 South Baylen Street Pensacola, Florida 32502 22 (850)432-2511 1-800-563-6409 23 FAX: (850)432-2302 www.anchorreporters.com 24

25





3

1 INDEX OF TRANSCRIPT

2 WITNESS:

3 RANDY B. CROWDER

4 Direct Examination by Mr. Petersen.............06

5 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray................37

6 Cross-Examination by Mr. Klotz................119

7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Edgar................183

8 Redirect Examination by Mr. Petersen..........184

9 Certified Questions...................................05

10 Certificate of Oath..................................191

11 Certificate of Reporter..............................192

12 Witness Review Letter................................193

13 Errata Sheet.........................................194

14 ______________________________________________________ 15

16 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS INDEX

17 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO.

18 1 Recordings Provided in Discovery CD 48

19 _______________________________________________________



20 DEFENDANTS' EXHIBITS INDEX 21 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 22

23 1 FDLE Investigative Report 98

24 _______________________________________________________

25





4

1

2

3

4

5

6

7 STIPULATION

8

9 It is stipulated and agreed by Counsel for

10 the parties that the deposition is taken for

11 the purpose of discovery and/or evidence;

12 that all objections save as to the form of

13 the question are reserved to the time of

14 trial; and that the reading and signing of

15 the deposition are not waived, together with

16 notice of the original hereof.

17 * * * * * * *

18

19



20

21

22

23

24

25





5

CERTIFIED QUESTIONS

FROM THE DEPOSITION OF RANDY B. CROWDER

Page 117, Lines 19-21

(By Mr. Murray, Cross-Examination of RANDY B. CROWDER)

Q. "Did you recommend anyone for prosecution that

was not subsequently charged?"

Page 119, Lines 6-9

(By Mr. Murray, Cross-Examination of RANDY B. CROWDER)

Q. "Just so it's clear what I'm trying to get at,

did you, yourself, recommend anybody for prosecution

that was not prosecuted?"


(By Mr. Klotz, Cross-Examination of RANDY B. CROWDER)

Q. "Right. And so my question to you is: Did you

recommend that she be prosecuted as well?"




(By Mr. Klotz, Cross-Examination of RANDY B. CROWDER)

Q. "Have you recommended that Mr. Wilson be

charged?"

____________________________________________ Pamela Dee Elliott Florida Professional Reporter





6

1 Whereupon, the Witness,

2 RANDY B. CROWDER,

3 having been first duly sworn by the Court Reporter,

4 testified on his oath as follows:

5 THE WITNESS: I do.

6 DIRECT EXAMINATION

7 BY MR. PETERSEN:

8 Q. Would you state your name, please?

9 A. Randy B. Crowder.

10 Q. Mr. Crowder, my name is Nick Petersen.

11 I'm the attorney for David Yacks. You know Mr. Klotz

12 and Mr. and Mrs. Murray, I'm sure --

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. -- and Mr. Russ Edgar is here. I have an

15 opportunity to take your deposition now. And I assume

16 you have had your deposition taken before?

17 A. Oh, yes.

18 Q. Okay. I'm not going to try and trick you

19 or deceive you or get you to say anything that's not



20 true. What I am going to try to do and what I have an

21 obligation to do is to ask you questions so that

22 should you testify at the trial of this case, what

23 your trial testimony would be.

24 If you don't understand my question, just

25 ask me to repeat it. If you don't know the answer,





7

1 just say you don't know. Any time you wish to speak

2 to Mr. Edgar in private, you can certainly do that.

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. What is your title?

5 A. Investigator.

6 Q. For the State Attorney's Office?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And how long have you been so employed?

9 A. In the State Attorney's Office?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. Eleven plus years.

12 Q. And what did you do prior to that?

13 A. I was an investigator with the Florida

14 Department of Banking and Finance.

15 Q. Is that a law enforcement agency in

16 Florida?

17 A. It is not a sworn law enforcement agency,

18 but I have the authority and the -- the authority and

19 the responsibility to conduct criminal investigations.



20 Q. And how long did you do that?

21 A. Five years.

22 Q. And what did you do prior to that?

23 A. Before that, I was a -- I worked for a

24 private company in Tallahassee while I was going to

25 graduate school.





8

1 Q. Okay. Was that private company not

2 connected with the State of Florida Law Enforcement?

3 A. No, it was.

4 Q. Do you have a degree?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. What's your degree in?

7 A. I have a degree in sociology/psychology

8 undergraduate's degree. I have a master's degree in

9 criminology and I have a master's degree in

10 international strategic studies.

11 Q. When did you get those master's degrees?

12 A. The first master's degree was in 1992 at

13 Florida State University. The second one was in

14 2000/2001 with the Army War College.

15 Q. Did you serve in the military?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Which military?

18 A. Army.

19 Q. And how long?



20 A. Thirty years.

21 Q. Okay. And when did you retire from that?

22 A. June 1st of last year.

23 Q. Honorable discharge?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. What are your duties as an





9

1 investigator with the State Attorney's Office?

2 A. To conduct investigations of crimes

3 occurring within the First Judicial Circuit.

4 Q. In this Charlie Morris/Teresa Adams case,

5 which my client is part of it, who was the lead

6 investigator in that case?

7 A. There were two of us.

8 Q. And who were they?

9 A. Dennis Nordstrom and myself.

10 Q. Okay. As far as Mr. Yacks is concerned,

11 who would be the lead investigator?

12 A. The same. There was no -- we were

13 partners --

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. -- in those investigations.

16 Q. So maybe coleaders --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- you and Mr. Nordstrom?

19 A. Yes, uh-huh.



20 Q. And you were present when Mr. Yacks gave

21 some statements?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were you present in Las Vegas --

24 A. No.

25 Q. -- when Charlie Morris was arrested?





10

1 A. No.

2 Q. Was Mr. Nordstrom present?

3 A. No.

4 Q. When did you first hear Mr. Yacks give

5 any statements concerning this case?

6 A. Well, we came in on the case after

7 Charlie Morris was arrested and the FBI conducted the

8 search warrants of the Sheriff's Office. And then we

9 came in sometime after that.

10 Q. Okay. Did you bring any notes with you

11 today?

12 A. No, I did not.

13 Q. Do you know -- well, do you have notes --

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. -- involving this case? And where are

16 those notes located?

17 A. State Attorney's Office.

18 Q. If we gave you an opportunity, could you

19 go back and get those notes?



20 MR. EDGAR: Those aren't discoverable.

21 Q. (By Mr. Petersen) Maybe we can't get

22 copies of them, but you could use them to refresh your

23 memory.

24 MR. EDGAR: If he needs to.

25 A. If I need to, if necessary.





11

1 Q. Okay. What was the date that you first

2 heard a statement from David Yacks?

3 A. I don't have that.

4 Q. Would that -- would that be in your

5 notes?

6 A. Yes, it would be.

7 MR. EDGAR: Let me object to the form of

8 the question. I'm not sure what you're asking.

9 MR. PETERSEN: I'm asking for the date

10 that this gentleman first took a statement or

11 heard a statement given by my client.

12 A. You would have that information, that's

13 been provided to you in discovery. We did an audio

14 recording and that would be noted on the materials

15 provided.

16 Q. (By Mr. Petersen) Well, my problem is I

17 have a difficult time getting into those CD's I've

18 been provided in the past.

19 MR. EDGAR: Excuse me, but you were



20 there. You were present. You don't remember

21 when you were present? I mean, doesn't your

22 calendar have that? I mean, I don't understand

23 this question.

24 MR. PETERSEN: Mr. Edgar, my question is

25 to this gentleman. When did he first have a





12

1 statement with Mr. Yacks?

2 MR. EDGAR: He answered your question.

3 MR. PETERSEN: The answer is he doesn't

4 know. Now, maybe I was present during one

5 statement and you were there, also.

6 Q. (By Mr. Petersen) How many statements

7 did Mr. Yacks give while you were present?

8 A. I believe only one.

9 Q. And that was at the State Attorney's

10 Office?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I was present at that one?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. So you were not present when

15 Mr. Yacks gave any other statements?

16 A. Not to my memory.

17 Q. That statement was recorded, as I

18 remember; yes?

19 A. Uh-huh.



20 Q. And was there ever a transcript that you

21 know of made of that --

22 A. No.

23 Q. -- statement?

24 A. Not that I know of.

25 Q. Okay. Did you have any other contact





13

1 with Mr. Yacks other than that statement?

2 A. Not that I remember.

3 Q. Okay. Did you -- do you feel that

4 Mr. Yacks fully cooperated with law enforcement

5 involved in this case?

6 A. I believe he provided the answers to the

7 questions we presented him.

8 Q. Were you able to identify any

9 misleading -- any untruths or misleading answers that

10 he gave to the questions posed to him?

11 A. Not that I can remember.

12 Q. Do you feel that he lied? Well, let me

13 ask you this question: Have you reviewed, read any

14 other statements that Mr. Yacks has given to other

15 people?

16 A. I've read the FBI's 302's.

17 Q. Okay. Have you identified any statements

18 Mr. Yacks provided to those people that were either

19 lies or misleading?



20 A. I believe he was misleading in the amount

21 of monies that he had or that he received in income

22 from his previous job and that he was, as a result,

23 losing when he came over to the Sheriff's Office. But

24 I can't remember anything else right now.

25 Q. Would those be in your notes, that type





14

1 of information?

2 A. I don't believe that would be in my

3 notes.

4 Q. Okay. And his previous job, that was

5 with Home Depot?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Okay. And did you do any investigation

8 on him concerning how much he was making while working

9 for Home Depot?

10 A. No, I did not. I believe that was some

11 other person.

12 Q. Do you know whose job that was?

13 A. I believe that was one of the federal

14 investigators that looked at that.

15 Q. Do you know who that federal investigator

16 was?

17 A. No, I don't remember.

18 Q. Do you know what the result of that

19 investigation was as to that issue?



20 A. No, there was no result. It was just

21 knowledge gained.

22 Q. Well, do you know what the knowledge

23 gained was?

24 A. That there was a -- that there was less

25 money he was -- he had claimed he was making more





15

1 money at Home Depot than -- than he was and that he

2 further claimed that he was losing money by coming to

3 the Sheriff's Office.

4 Q. In your investigation, did you determine

5 if Sheriff Charlie Morris had a legal authority to

6 issue bonuses?

7 A. No, sir. That was not part of my

8 investigation.

9 Q. Have you come to a conclusion in your own

10 mind whether any bonuses by a sheriff in this state

11 are legal?

12 A. Sir, that was outside of my purview, so I

13 did not --

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. -- try to make any decision.

16 Q. Who in that investigative process was

17 charged with making that determination?

18 A. Neither of us investigators were looking

19 at that. That was left up to the prosecutors and the



20 attorneys.

21 Q. Have you investigated whether any other

22 constitutional officers have provided bonuses to their

23 employees, say, from 2006 on?

24 A. I had heard that the -- the thing with

25 the tax collector of Okaloosa County, but I did not





16

1 investigate that.

2 Q. Do you know if bonuses were given by the

3 State Attorney's Office?

4 A. I'm not sure. I believe there was -- I

5 know there were monies given out, but I'm not sure if

6 that's considered a bonus or what form.

7 Q. Monies given out in addition to the

8 normal salary?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you receive a bonus?

11 A. Since when?

12 Q. Since 2006.

13 A. I have received one allocation. I don't

14 know what -- again, I don't know what that was

15 considered, a bonus or what.

16 Q. Why was it explained to you why you were

17 getting the money?

18 A. End of year funds.

19 Q. Was it resulting from why -- what



20 criteria did the State Attorney use when they gave you

21 that?

22 A. I don't know what the criteria was.

23 Q. Do you know if any other employees

24 received that type of remuneration?

25 A. No, sir.





17

1 Q. Was that type of information confidential

2 as to you?

3 A. Are you talking about the other

4 employees?

5 Q. Yes. Did you discuss that information

6 with other employees?

7 A. No, I did not, not other than my

8 supervisor.

9 Q. And were you instructed not to discuss it

10 amongst other employees?

11 A. No, sir.

12 Q. You just didn't?

13 A. I just didn't.

14 Q. Okay. Do you know if anyone else in the

15 State Attorney's Office received extra income at the

16 end of the year?

17 A. No, sir.

18 Q. Specifically related to the Charlie

19 Morris/Teresa Adams case, do you know of anyone else



20 other than my client who received bonuses for 2006 on?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you name those people?

23 A. Again, all of that information was

24 provided in the discovery in the audit reports and

25 that's what I based my information on was the audit





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1 reports.

2 Q. And who did that audit?

3 A. I believe that audit that I'm referring

4 to now was Carl, Riggs and Ingram.

5 Q. Do you remember the auditor's name?

6 A. I know there was one auditor, Glenn

7 Gilliard. I don't know if there are others.

8 Q. Okay. So do you -- can you recollect the

9 approximate number of people who received bonuses

10 other than my client?

11 A. No, sir, I can't. Approximately five to

12 ten.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. Now, are you asking -- you're asking for

15 all bonuses?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. There would be a lot more than that.

18 Q. Okay. Do you know out of the people who

19 received bonuses, did any of those people give cash



20 back to Charlie Morris?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And do you know how many fit into that

23 group?

24 A. I'd say ten to 15.

25 Q. Okay. And do you know if my client gave





19

1 cash back --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. -- to Charlie Morris? Did you -- did you

4 take any statements involving Charlie Morris? Were

5 you involved in any statements when Charlie Morris

6 gave any statements?

7 A. From Charlie Morris?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. How many?

11 A. Five.

12 Q. Okay. Do you know the dates of those

13 Morris statements?

14 A. No, I do not. The last three were during

15 the trial and the second one was the week prior to the

16 trial.

17 Q. Okay. During those statements, did

18 Charlie Morris ever implicate Mr. Yacks as far as

19 being a conspirator in any illegal activities?



20 MR. EDGAR: Can you clarify which

21 statements? The ones in the trial or the ones

22 before? You said which statements.

23 MR. PETERSEN: Any of the five statements

24 that he was involved in.

25 MR. EDGAR: Okay, thank you.





20

1 A. I believe it was only in the first

2 statement he talked about Mr. Yacks.

3 Q. (By Mr. Petersen) What did he say?

4 A. He talked about how he had received bonus

5 payments.

6 Q. Okay. Did -- was there any discussion or

7 statements by Mr. Morris that would lead you to

8 conclude that my client was conspiring with Charlie

9 Morris to give money back illegally?

10 A. Can you say that again?

11 Q. Were there any statements by Mr. Morris

12 that would lead you to believe that my client and

13 Mr. Morris conspired with each other to give cash back

14 to Charlie Morris illegally?

15 A. I don't -- do not remember anything

16 specifically that I can recall. I'd have to go back

17 through my notes and review as well as also listen to

18 the recorded statements.

19 Q. But those -- the answer to that may be in



20 your notes?

21 A. Or the recorded statement.

22 Q. And was the recorded statement that

23 you're referring to from Mr. Morris; right?

24 A. Yes, sir, it was the first one.

25 Q. And that was before the -- right before





21

1 the Sabra Thornton trial?

2 A. No, sir. The one right before the trial

3 was number two. The first one was sometime on or

4 about when Mr. Morris was being sentenced, either

5 before or after.

6 Q. Okay. Did the State Attorney provide the

7 defense with a copy of the first statement --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- of Mr. Morris? So that statement then

10 will speak for itself?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Is there anything that you remember from

13 that statement that's not in the written statement --

14 A. No, sir.

15 Q. -- that Mr. Morris may have said?

16 A. No, sir. It should all be included.

17 Q. Okay. So from your recollection of any

18 statement given by Mr. Morris, did Mr. Morris ever

19 say, "David Yacks and I got together and conspired to



20 steal money from --"

21 A. Not in those words.

22 Q. In any other words?

23 A. Again, he had said that he made -- had

24 talked about how Yacks had received bonuses and talked

25 about the travel arrangements.





22

1 Q. Okay. What did -- from your

2 recollection, what did Mr. Morris say about receiving

3 bonuses as far as being illegal activity? A lot of

4 people received bonuses.

5 A. Right, right. Well, those -- the

6 kickbacks was (sic) illegal. He acknowledged that the

7 kickbacks were illegal.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. And Mr. Yacks did do kickbacks.

10 Q. Okay. Did Mr. Morris ever say that

11 Mr. Yacks knew those cash-backs -- you just called

12 them kickbacks -- were illegal?

13 A. I don't remember if he said that

14 specifically or not.

15 Q. Wouldn't that be an important thing in

16 this case?

17 A. Well, that's not for me to decide. That

18 will be the prosecutor to decide if that was

19 important.



20 Q. But your duty is to investigate and get

21 information to provide to the prosecutor --

22 MR. EDGAR: Objection. That's

23 argumentative.

24 Q. (By Mr. Petersen) -- is that not true?

25 A. Yes, sir. I collect some information and





23

1 provide it to the prosecution and let them decide.

2 Q. If Charlie Morris would have told you or

3 said in your presence that Yacks and I were engaged in

4 some type of illegal activity and Yacks knew about it,

5 that would ring a bell with you; wouldn't it?

6 MR. EDGAR: Objection. That's

7 argumentative.

8 A. A hypothetical situation, sir.

9 Q. (By Mr. Petersen) But that never

10 occurred?

11 A. No, sir.

12 Q. Were there -- let's see, there's people

13 who received bonuses that never gave cash back; is

14 that true?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. There's people who received bonuses that

17 did give cash back?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. And there was (sic) people who



20 received bonuses that gave cash back and were charged

21 with crimes?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know what criteria was used and

24 why Mr. Yacks, Mr. Coup and Ms. Norris were charged

25 with the charges that they are facing today?





24

1 A. The information was provided to the

2 prosecutor and decisions were made of who would be

3 charged and then we followed from that.

4 Q. Did you have any input in that decision?

5 A. We provided the information that we

6 gained through our investigation, recordings and so

7 forth and provided a PC Affidavit.

8 Q. Okay. What -- what information is

9 peculiar to Mr. Yacks that's different from other

10 people that received bonuses, gave cash back and were

11 not charged criminally?

12 A. Again, that was a decision by the

13 prosecutor, not...

14 Q. Well, are you aware of any information

15 that's peculiar to Mr. Yacks along those lines?

16 A. Mr. Yacks made trips to Las Vegas with

17 him, took monies from the bonuses to pay for those

18 trips. And there's probably other information that I

19 can't remember at this time.



20 Q. Is there anything illegal about going to

21 Las Vegas?

22 A. No, sir.

23 Q. Did you determine whether Mr. Yacks had

24 went (sic) to Las Vegas before he was hired on?

25 A. He made statements and I did see proof of





25

1 that in his bank records.

2 Q. Okay. Talk to me about getting bonuses

3 you say to pay -- to pay back for other things. Are

4 you talking about restaurant charges?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. And airline tickets?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Did he do anything else other than

9 airline tickets and restaurant charges?

10 A. Not that I can remember at this time.

11 Q. Do you know if it is illegal for one

12 person to charge an airline ticket on their credit

13 card and get the Sky Miles to do that, then charging

14 the airline ticket for someone else?

15 A. Not if that's all there is to it.

16 Q. Is there anything peculiar to Mr. Yacks'

17 case about him charging several airline tickets on

18 credit cards, getting the Sky Miles for doing that and

19 then having those people pay him back for the airline



20 tickets?

21 A. Nothing wrong with that in itself.

22 Q. Is there anything -- did you find people

23 who Mr. Yacks purchased airline tickets for and that

24 those people paid Mr. Yacks for those tickets other

25 than Charlie Morris?





26

1 A. Yes, there were some.

2 Q. Do you remember who they were?

3 A. There was a lady, name of Jones, widow of

4 Mike Jones. I believe she did it at least on one

5 occasion. I believe that there may be several others.

6 I can't remember who, maybe Sandy Norris. But I can't

7 remember their names at this time without having to go

8 through all of the records.

9 Q. Would those be in your notes, those

10 names?

11 A. Not in my notes. Maybe in some analysis

12 I've done, but it would be in the bank records of

13 Mr. Yacks, again, provided to you in discovery.

14 Q. Would one name be Claudia Finn?

15 A. I'm not sure about that. I'd have to go

16 back and look at that.

17 Q. Okay. And you indicated that buying

18 tickets, then getting reimbursed by the person using

19 the ticket, is not illegal as stated or as far as that



20 goes; is there anything else that would make it

21 illegal?

22 A. Well, if he's being paid by somebody

23 else?

24 Q. Yes, sir.

25 A. Perhaps if that money was the money that





27

1 they were paying him and was illegally gotten.

2 Q. Okay. Explain to me how Mr. -- how your

3 theory of the case is Mr. Yacks got illegal money or

4 gave Charlie --

5 MR. EDGAR: I'm going to object, counsel,

6 to the form of the question in it's really

7 asking for work product and his theories. He

8 is a fact witness. His theories also involve

9 my theories and that's work product and that's

10 improper.

11 Q. (By Mr. Petersen) What facts did you

12 elicit from any source to indicate that Mr. Yacks

13 committed any illegal acts?

14 A. Any illegal acts?

15 Q. Yes, sir, as charged in the Third Amended

16 Information.

17 A. He received bonuses to pay for travel,

18 the kickbacks to the Sheriff, those two, two right

19 there.



20 Q. Okay. And I'm going back to -- are there

21 people that have done the same thing that were not

22 charged?

23 A. Again, sir, as I said before, it was not

24 my decision.

25 Q. So you don't know what criteria was used





28

1 for the charge?

2 A. No, I don't recall the criteria.

3 Q. Do you recall any of the criteria?

4 A. I think I've already said that (sic) was

5 (sic) two things right there.

6 Q. Okay, okay. Count One of the Third

7 Amended Information, I'm sure you've read that.

8 A. Let me look at it. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Okay. Count One is a Conspiracy Count.

10 And it says that my client conspired with Charlie

11 Morris and Teresa Adams and others -- and I

12 highlighted and others. Do you know any -- do you

13 know who that "and others" refers to?

14 A. No, sir. That's -- that pertains --

15 that's added to the information to cover anybody that

16 they found during this investigation.

17 Q. Well, as we sit here today, are you aware

18 of any person other than Teresa Adams and Charlie

19 Morris that my client is accused of conspiring with?



20 A. I'm just -- I look at all of the

21 defendants in this case, the committing racketeering

22 and conspiring or conspiracy. In my opinion, looking

23 at that the way the prosecution has charged it, I

24 would consider that.

25 Q. Do you mean the co-defendants?





29

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Okay. Do you have any information you

3 believe -- that leads you to believe that Mr. Yacks

4 conspired with Mr. Coup?

5 THE WITNESS: I need to talk to

6 Mr. Edgar.

7 MR. PETERSEN: Sure.

8 (An off-the-record discussion was held at

9 10:34 a.m., after which the deposition

10 continued at 10:36 a.m. )

11 MR. PETERSEN: We're back on the record.

12 A. Would you restate the question?

13 MR. PETERSEN: Restate the question,

14 please.

15 (Whereupon, the court reporter read back

16 as follows:

17 Q. "Okay. Do you have any information

18 you believe -- that leads you to believe that

19 Mr. Yacks conspired with Mr. Coup?"



20 A. Again, I mentioned this earlier, I

21 consider everybody charged in this case in conspiracy.

22 Q. (By Mr. Petersen) Okay. Tell me all of

23 the evidence you have or that you heard of that

24 Mr. Yacks conspired with Mr. Coup concerning the

25 charges in the Third Amended Information?





30

1 MR. EDGAR: I object to the form of the

2 question. It's overly broad.

3 MR. PETERSEN: I don't think it is.

4 MR. EDGAR: Well, do you want him to read

5 all of the 302's to you? Why don't you go get

6 them all and we'll read every one of them into

7 the record. We'll read all the bank

8 statements. We'll read all the audit reports.

9 We can read all of that, if you want. But I

10 think it's an unfair question, "Tell me

11 everything you know about this case."

12 Q. (By Mr. Petersen) I'm asking

13 specifically information that you have that Mr. Yacks

14 conspired with Mr. Coup.

15 A. Again, Mr. Coup was charged and Mr. Yacks

16 was charged as crimes committed that are charged in

17 racketeering and I did not charge him with conspiracy.

18 That was charged by the prosecutor. So I had no

19 effect on that.



20 Q. Do you have any information to show that

21 Mr. Coup and Mr. Yacks talked to each other about

22 bonuses and cash-backs and those type of things?


24 Q. Do you have any information concerning

25 that Mr. Yacks talked with Sandy Norris about bonuses





31

1 and cash-backs?


3 Q. Do you have any information concerning

4 that Mr. Yacks talked with Teresa Adams about bonuses

5 and cash-backs?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Tell me what you have on that.

8 A. Well, Ms. -- Ms. Adams did the kickback

9 for Mr. Yacks. They shared accounts. And he was not

10 present and she provided the money to the kickback

11 fund.

12 Q. Do you have any evidence to show that my

13 client talked with Teresa Adams about bonuses or

14 cash-backs?

15 A. I believe there was. I can't remember

16 exactly what it was, but I believe there was. In the

17 302's, they discussed that.

18 Q. What is a 302?

19 A. FBI report. Either when I say 302's, I'm



20 also referring to the IRS reports. I don't know the

21 form number. We categorize them together, all of the

22 federal reports.

23 Q. And those have been provided to the

24 defense?

25 A. Yes, sir.





32

1 Q. Do you have any evidence to suggest that

2 Mr. Yacks talked with Sheriff Morris about bonuses and

3 cash-backs?

4 A. I believe so.

5 Q. Okay. And what -- what evidence?

6 A. I believe the testimony will show that

7 Mr. Morris provided the money, the bonuses to

8 Mr. Yacks --

9 Q. Do you have any --

10 A. -- and talked about it. In the 302's

11 they talked about that.

12 Q. Where Sheriff Morris would give a bonus

13 and then ask for some cash back?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Okay. Do you have any evidence to show

16 that Mr. Yacks shared any of that knowledge of his

17 bonuses and the cash he gave back to Charlie Morris?

18 Did he share that with anyone else other than Charlie

19 Morris?



20 A. I can't remember anything specifically,

21 but again, we relied on the 302's and our report -- or

22 not our report, but our statement taken by Mr. Yacks

23 and others.

24 Q. And that would be in your notes?

25 A. Well, the notes -- the notes don't say





33

1 anything more than what the recorded statement says or

2 what the FBI 302's say. That's what we based this on.

3 Q. Did you write a report?

4 A. No, I did not.

5 Q. Would you --

6 A. When you say, "report," I did a PC

7 Affidavit.

8 Q. Will you voluntarily provide me a copy of

9 your notes?

10 A. No, sir.

11 MR. EDGAR: Objection to the notes being

12 provided. As he said, the notes don't have

13 anything that aren't already contained in the

14 reports or the recorded interviews.

15 MR. PETERSEN: Okay. Russ, do you have

16 your copy of the Third Amended Information?

17 MR. EDGAR: No. I didn't bring it, I'm

18 sorry.

19 MR. PETERSEN: Okay.



20 MR. EDGAR: I don't think I did.

21 MR. PETERSEN: There's Count 14.

22 MR. EDGAR: Okay.

23 MR. PETERSEN: And you sent an amended

24 page, because the date was wrong and I got

25 confused. We can go off the record.





34

1 (An off-the-record discussion was held at


3 continued at 10:43 a.m.)

4 MR. PETERSEN: Back on the record.

5 Q. (By Mr. Petersen) Okay. As far as

6 Counts 2 through 21 of the Third Amended

7 Information -- and I'll put it in front of you -- they

8 all are alleging grand theft on or about a certain

9 date and then they give parameters of less than $5,000

10 more than $10,000. Is it your understanding that each

11 of those counts are concerning bonuses given by

12 Charlie Morris to Mr. Yacks?

13 A. Sir, I can't answer that because I have

14 no knowledge -- direct knowledge. I've not talked to

15 Mr. Edgar since he's done this information.

16 Q. Okay. Do you have any knowledge of any

17 grand theft allegedly committed by Mr. Yacks other

18 than receiving bonuses and giving cash back?

19 A. I can't think of anything right now.



20 Q. I mean, again, if there was something out

21 there, that would be available?

22 A. That would be what?

23 Q. That would be something that you would

24 pay attention to and would note?

25 A. Most likely.





35

1 Q. Yes, okay. Other than what you've

2 testified already about receiving bonuses and giving

3 cash back between Sheriff Morris and Mr. Yacks, is

4 there any other pattern of racketeering activity that

5 you're aware of that's going to be brought up to

6 support the Third Amended Information?

7 A. I think that's it.

8 Q. As far as the allegations in the Third

9 Amended Information as to money laundering, is there

10 any other activities that you think support that

11 charge other than receiving bonuses and giving cash

12 back?

13 A. Well, basic money laundering is financial

14 transactions. And in this case, through financial

15 institutions. It is not just that there is not a

16 bonus. It's not just a bonus, but also financial

17 institutions involved.

18 Q. Banks?

19 A. Banks, yes, sir.



20 Q. And the bonuses were to put in the banks

21 and the cash then taken out of the bank and given to

22 Charles Morris?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is that the basis for the money

25 laundering charges?





36

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Okay. And no other basis that you are

3 aware of at this time?

4 A. I think that's, in general, what it is.

5 Q. Okay. Mr. Yacks put some meals on his

6 credit card. Do you know how many times he did that,

7 that is evidenced to support the State's claim that he

8 committed an illegal act?

9 A. I believe there are several.

10 Q. Two?

11 A. Two or more; probably two.

12 Q. Two, okay. Do you know where they were;

13 where the meal was? I think one was in Orlando,

14 perhaps.

15 A. Sir?

16 Q. Was one in Orlando?

17 A. I believe so.

18 Q. Do you know where the other one was?

19 A. I believe, Las Vegas.



20 Q. Las Vegas. Is there anything that I have

21 not asked you that you think is important in this

22 case?

23 A. Sir, that's -- that's very broad, but I

24 think we've answered -- I've answered all of the

25 questions pretty much.





37

1 MR. PETERSEN: Okay. Mr. Klotz?

2 MR. KLOTZ: It matters not to me.

3 MR. MURRAY: Mr. Crowder, do you need a

4 break before we continue on?

5 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I would like to go to

6 the restroom.

7 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken at


9 continued at 10:50 a.m.)

10 CROSS-EXAMINATION

11 BY MR. MURRAY:

12 Q. Mr. Crowder, my name is Jim Murray, I

13 represent Michael Coup. And over the years you and I

14 have known each other for some time.

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. If I ask you something you don't

17 understand, please stop me and I'll rephrase it --

18 A. All right.

19 Q. -- until we both get on the same page.



20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. What year did you start with the State

22 Attorney's Office?

23 A. 1998.

24 Q. And what year -- what were your years

25 that were you at the Florida Banking and Finance?





38

1 A. '93 to '98.

2 Q. And you indicated that you were in the

3 U.S. Army for 30 years?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. And had an honorable discharge?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was that a guard status or were you

8 active duty?

9 A. I was active duty for 11 years and then I

10 joined the active reserves in '94 and stayed in the

11 active reserves with some stints on active duty going

12 to Bosnia and Iraq.

13 Q. Your rank or rate?

14 A. Colonel.

15 Q. And what was your MOS?

16 A. Specialty was a civil affairs officer.

17 Q. When you say colonel; are you talking

18 about in '06 or in '05?

19 A. '06.



20 Q. Now, what law enforcement training have

21 you had to qualify you for your position as an

22 investigator with the State Attorney's Office?

23 A. Well, I started on or about 1973 as a

24 police cadet. And then when I turned 18, I became a

25 reserve deputy. And off and on I became an active





39

1 deputy with the Garland County Sheriff's Office in

2 Arkansas.

3 Q. Garland County.

4 A. Garland County.

5 Q. Where in Arkansas?

6 A. Hot Springs.

7 Q. Hot Springs, southwest?

8 A. Southwest.

9 Q. Okay, go ahead.

10 A. And then I worked there as a -- off and

11 on as a deputy while going to undergraduate school.

12 And then when I got out of the military -- when I went

13 in the military, I did something completely different.

14 And then when I got out of the military, I went to

15 graduate school. And I worked for a private

16 investigative company for, approximately, a year,

17 maybe two.

18 And then came to Pensacola, worked with

19 Banking and Finance and attended various training



20 courses for financial investigations. And then when I

21 came to the State Attorney's Office, I went to the Law

22 Enforcement Academy at George Stone and graduated in

23 '99.

24 Q. So --

25 A. And since then, I've attended other





40

1 trainings conducted by FDLE and other organizations on

2 investigations.

3 Q. And has that training related to

4 financial crimes?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. And what type of training have you

7 received in regards to financial crimes?

8 A. Well, I've attended the Federal Law

9 Enforcement Training Center. They've conducted

10 various courses there and outside on financial

11 investigations, advanced financial investigations,

12 forensic investigations of financial crimes, money

13 laundering. And there's probably been some others,

14 but I can't think of what they would be.

15 Q. Who is your supervisor?

16 A. Well, I have two. Barry Brook is my

17 supervisor in investigations.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. Russ Edgar is my supervisor in special



20 prosecutions.

21 Q. Are you assigned to special prosecutions?

22 A. Yes, I am.

23 Q. And you didn't write a report in this

24 case?

25 A. No, I did not.





41

1 Q. Was there a reason why you didn't write a

2 report?

3 A. I do not write reports.

4 Q. Have you ever written reports?

5 A. Very rarely.

6 Q. What about when you were with Florida

7 Banking and Finance?

8 A. Yes, I did there.

9 Q. So you wrote reports when you were with

10 Florida Banking and Finance?

11 A. Yes, sir. It was an agency requirement.

12 Q. And is there a policy manual governing

13 the conduct of investigations at the State Attorney's

14 Office by State Attorney investigators?

15 A. Not in regards to reports.

16 Q. Okay. There's nothing in there about

17 reports?


19 Q. Okay. Isn't one of the tenets of this



20 advanced training that you had was to document

21 carefully the facts that you're able to discern in

22 order to support criminal prosecution?

23 A. Yes, sir. In many ways, that's conducted

24 by writing a PC Affidavit.

25 Q. Okay. We'll get into that in just a





42

1 second. What did you do to prepare for this

2 deposition today?

3 A. Looked over some of my notes.

4 Q. Okay. Did you review any reports?

5 A. PC Affidavit.

6 Q. Okay. Now, I think you told us that

7 there was actually two people in charge of the

8 investigation that you participated in. That was

9 yourself and Agent Nordstrom; is that correct?

10 A. We were the two investigators connected

11 with it.

12 Q. Now, Agent Nordstrom wrote reports; did

13 he not?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review

16 those reports before he submitted them for accuracy

17 and content?

18 A. No, sir.

19 Q. So you didn't have any -- did you have



20 any responsibilities in regards to governing what

21 Agent Nordstrom placed in his reports?

22 A. No, sir.

23 Q. During the course of this investigation,

24 who did you answer to; Mr. Edgar?

25 A. Mr. Edgar.





43

1 Q. And who gave you instructions on how the

2 investigation was going to be conducted?

3 A. Mr. Edgar.

4 Q. Who made the decisions on what witnesses

5 were going to be interviewed?

6 A. That was pretty much a group thing

7 between Agent Nordstrom and myself and Mr. Edgar.

8 Q. Okay. Now, you indicated in response to

9 Mr. Petersen's questions, you made reference to

10 Federal 302's. And just for purposes of the records,

11 that's the Offense Reports that the FBI wrote?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Am I correct so far?

14 A. And it's an FD302. And it's basically a

15 report stating about the search warrants, the arrests

16 and interviews.

17 Q. Okay. And then you clarified it a bit.

18 You said, "Well, when I refer to 302's, I'm also

19 talking about the IRS reports that were part of the



20 federal package"?

21 A. Right. And when we were provided that,

22 we were given those to us by the FBI and we provided

23 those to the defense in a complete package.

24 Q. My question --

25 A. Inner-mixed --





44

1 Q. Go ahead.

2 A. Inner-mixed by date as to when it

3 occurred.

4 Q. My question to you is: Did you interview

5 any of the federal agents who authored those reports

6 as to the content of those reports?

7 A. Yes, we did. Discussions, I wouldn't

8 necessarily call it interview, but discussions.

9 Q. And who did you talk to?

10 A. Agent VanPelt primarily.

11 Q. Any other agents?

12 A. Well, we did talk to IRS Agent Margaret

13 Wise, FBI Agent Harker. I can't remember. I believe

14 IRS Scott Snyder.

15 Q. Scott Snyder?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. S-C-H or S-N-Y?

18 A. I think it's S-N-Y-D-E-R.

19 Q. Okay. Now, were there particular -- did



20 you have a reason -- let's start with VanPelt. Did

21 you have a reason for talking to VanPelt about

22 particular 302's?

23 A. Well, he was the primary investigator for

24 the FBI.

25 Q. So your understanding is that insofar as





45

1 the federal investigation was concerned, VanPelt was

2 identified to you as the lead investigator?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, did you talk to him about any 302's

5 that he authored and the content of those 302's?

6 A. Yes, I believe, we did.

7 Q. And which 302's did you talk to him

8 about?

9 A. I can't -- there's a whole lot of 302's

10 in there that we went through. And not only his but

11 other people's, since he was lead investigator. He

12 was our primary contact.

13 Q. Were there any issues that you inquired

14 directly of him that was reflecting of the 302's that

15 you had questions about?

16 MR. EDGAR: Object to the form of the

17 question. It's overly broad and vague.

18 Q. (By Mr. Murray) You can answer the

19 question.



20 A. I can't remember anything specific.

21 There's a whole lot. There was -- you know, we

22 basically went through his whole investigation and he

23 would identify things and refer back to his 302's.

24 And I'm sure there were things that we had questions

25 about and went back, but I can't remember.





46

1 Q. Now, were there group meetings that

2 involved VanPelt and Wise, Harker and Snyder?

3 A. Not that I was part of.

4 Q. Are you aware of any group meetings

5 between the State officials and the federal

6 investigative team?

7 A. We had one meeting. Our initial meeting,

8 we conducted at the U.S. Attorney's Office.

9 Q. And who conducted that meeting?

10 A. Randy Hensel.

11 Q. Okay. Now, was your contact with VanPelt

12 primarily one-on-one?

13 A. No, sir. A lot of times we'd have

14 Nordstrom and I would be meeting with him.

15 Q. Okay. Thank you for making that

16 clarification. When you and Agent Nordstrom would

17 meet with VanPelt, was it typically one-on-one?

18 A. Are you talking about just the three of

19 us?



20 Q. Yes.

21 A. Yes. Or sometimes there would be phone

22 calls, you know, him and I just phone calls and that

23 kind of stuff.

24 Q. What about with Agent Wise of the IRS?

25 A. She was involved in that first meeting





47

1 that we had with the U.S. Attorney's Office, but I --

2 there were some phone calls. I don't remember any

3 other face-to-face meetings.

4 Q. And Agent Harker?

5 A. We did meet with him. He also shares an

6 office with VanPelt. So one or two of the days we

7 were there to see VanPelt, he happened to be there and

8 we addressed some issues or he described what his

9 experience was.

10 Q. What then about Agent Snyder with the

11 IRS?

12 A. I don't remember talking to him until --

13 until -- I think, by phone.

14 Q. Okay. So you worked with Agent

15 Nordstrom, with FDLE, who was your partner for lack of

16 a better word on this case --

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. -- along with the four federal agents

19 that you told me about?



20 A. We really did not work with them. They,

21 basically, had their investigation completed by the

22 time we came on board. And so we were asking them as

23 to what they had done.

24 Q. And did their explanation to you about

25 what they had done, did they indicate to you that





48

1 their activity was completely contained within the

2 302's?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Was there any other activity that they

5 talked about that wasn't contained in the 302's that

6 you are aware of?

7 A. Not that I'm aware of.

8 Q. Now, you applied for an arrest warrant in

9 this case; did you not?

10 A. We did.

11 MR. MURRAY: Madam court reporter, mark

12 this as Exhibit 1, please. And once you mark

13 it, show it to the witness, please.

14 (Defendants' Exhibit No. 1 was marked for

15 identification.)

16 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Now, I show you what's

17 been marked as Defendants' Exhibit 1 and ask you if

18 you recognize that.

19 MR. MURRAY: Russ, do you have a copy of



20 that? Do you want a copy?

21 MR. EDGAR: Are you representing that

22 that's the Probable Cause Affidavit?

23 MR. MURRAY: Yes.

24 A. Yes, I recognize it.

25





49

1 Q. (By Mr. Murray) And is that the Arrest

2 Warrant and Affidavit in Support of Arrest Warrant for

3 Michael James Coup?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. And on the Affidavit of Probable Cause,

6 where there is a signature block for Randy Crowder; is

7 that your signature?

8 A. It is.

9 Q. Okay. Now, if you would, turn to the

10 Affidavit of Probable Cause. What allegations of

11 employee misconduct did you investigate during the

12 course of your investigation relating to bonus

13 payments by Charlie Morris?

14 A. Are you referring to something specific

15 in the Affidavit?

16 Q. Yes, sir. Let me see if I can -- it is

17 in the first paragraph. You said you investigated

18 allegations that the former Sheriff, Morris, I'm

19 paraphrasing, and the employees of the Okaloosa County



20 Sheriff's Office misappropriated funds, property,

21 services of the Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office.

22 My question to you is: Other than Coup,

23 Yacks and Norris, Morris and Adams, the five that have

24 been arrested, were there any other employees that you

25 investigated?





50

1 A. We took a look at almost everybody that

2 received bonuses.

3 Q. Okay. And I think you previously said

4 that you did not participate in the decision about who

5 ultimately would be prosecuted?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. That there were some who had received

8 bonuses and kicked money back or returned money to the

9 Sheriff and they were not prosecuted; is that an

10 accurate statement, at least up to this time?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. But you didn't participate in that

13 decision?

14 A. No.

15 Q. In any way, shape or form?

16 A. We presented the facts to the prosecutor

17 and the prosecutor took it and identified who would be

18 charged.

19 Q. And that was his decision solely?



20 A. Well, I don't know that, sir. I would

21 assume that he maybe talked to Mr. Eddins, but I don't

22 know.

23 Q. I don't want to get into any aspect of

24 that.

25 A. That's beyond me. That's above my pay





51

1 grade.

2 Q. Fair comment. My question to you is:

3 Did you make recommendations about who should or

4 should not be charged?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. And what were those recommendations?

7 A. The people that were charged in this

8 Affidavit.

9 Q. Okay. Why was -- why was Mr. Coup

10 selected as part of that group?

11 A. Well, sir --

12 MR. EDGAR: I object to the question. He

13 has already answered that he didn't make the

14 selection.


16 question.

17 A. Well, you can read here what we

18 identified in the Affidavit.

19 Q. Okay. Well, let's kind of go through



20 your Affidavit. Did you work with anybody at the

21 Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office that identified

22 employees to you that were suspected of criminal

23 conduct? Was there a pointman at the Okaloosa County

24 Sheriff's Office that you coordinated your

25 investigation with?





52

1 A. We talked to a lot of people at the

2 Sheriff's Office. Nobody, I would assume, would be

3 the pointman.

4 Q. Well, in looking at the FDLE reports --

5 A. Okay.

6 Q. -- that were supplied to us, it appears

7 that Major Ashley supplied you with a lot of

8 information.

9 A. He supplied the FBI with the information.

10 Q. The attachments, if you know, you may not

11 know since it's not your report, but the attachments

12 to some of the FDLE reports, are those attachments

13 that came from the FBI or are those attachments that

14 were furnished to you and Dennis Nordstrom?

15 A. I don't know what attachments you're

16 referring to.

17 Q. Okay. I'm going to leave that for just a

18 second and try to get back to my original question to

19 you, which is: Did you work with some employees at



20 the Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office in the course of

21 conducting your investigation more than other

22 employees?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Who were the employees that you worked

25 with?





53

1 A. Kelly Cashman.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. Leslie Frank, the Sheriff -- the New

4 Sheriff Spooner, Larry Ashley. Them probably more

5 than others, but like I said, we talked to a whole lot

6 of people there and worked with a lot of people.

7 Q. What about Major Schniepp; did you work

8 with him?

9 A. Yes, sir, we interviewed him several

10 times.

11 Q. And Major Donaldson?

12 A. We did interview him.

13 Q. Okay. Would he be in that group of

14 people that you worked with?

15 A. I wouldn't -- I wouldn't say -- other

16 than Cashman, who was the clerk handling, you know,

17 those financial transactions and Leslie Frank, there

18 wasn't -- I don't think we worked with a lot. You

19 know, it was more of us interviewing, asking



20 questions, receiving information.

21 Larry Ashley, in his position, we would

22 talk to him and say, "We need this." And he would

23 kind of coordinate it, if we couldn't get directly to

24 the person. For instance, if we couldn't get directly

25 with Cashman, we'd call him and say, "Hey, we need





54

1 help on getting this information."

2 Q. Now, I'm still on the first paragraph.

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. And in here, you say, "Employees in the

5 Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office misappropriated

6 funds." Are those funds that you make reference to in

7 your Affidavit the bonus payments made by Charlie

8 Morris to one or more of the employees?

9 MR. EDGAR: Let me see what paragraph he

10 is talking about.

11 THE WITNESS: It's right here

12 (indicating).

13 A. Yes, that's one. I'm looking and trying

14 to remember if there's anything else.

15 Q. (By Mr. Murray) And that's my question

16 to you really. Is there anything else other than the

17 bonus payments which you're apparent -- the bonus

18 payments?

19 A. That was the bonus payments we talked



20 about. We talked about, also, in here the payments

21 from the Sheriff's Office to Thornton for various

22 things.

23 Q. Okay.

24 MR. EDGAR: But the first paragraph,

25 number one, you're talking about?





55

1 MR. MURRAY: Yes, the first full

2 paragraph.

3 MR. EDGAR: Okay, not this paragraph

4 (indicating).

5 A. I thought you were talking about the very

6 first...

7 Q. I'm in the first paragraph, the next to

8 the last --

9 MR. EDGAR: What does it start with,

10 "Your affiants"?

11 MR. MURRAY: Yes.

12 MR. EDGAR: Okay, okay.

13 THE WITNESS: Yes, he is talking about

14 this.

15 MR. EDGAR: Okay.

16 A. Primarily the bonuses.

17 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Okay. And you qualify

18 that by saying that there was also monies paid to

19 Sabra Thornton?



20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Were there --

22 A. Using agency funds.

23 Q. Using agency funds. Now, was there

24 anything other than bonuses that Mr. Coup was alleged

25 to have been involved in, based upon your





56

1 investigation?

2 MR. EDGAR: I'm going to object to that

3 question. I think it's vague.


5 question.

6 A. Okay, restate the question.

7 MR. MURRAY: Would you read it back to

8 him, madam court reporter?

9 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes, sir.


11 as follows:

12 Q. "Using agency funds. Now, was

13 there anything other than bonuses that Mr. Coup

14 was alleged to have been involved in, based

15 upon your investigation?"

16 A. Kickbacks.

17 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Okay. But that related

18 to the bonuses; did it not?

19 A. That did relate to the bonuses.



20 Q. Your belief is that Mr. Coup received

21 bonus payments and then on occasion would give money

22 back to the Sheriff?

23 A. That and also receive money from the

24 Sheriff as a result of the kickbacks received from

25 other people.





57

1 Q. Okay, okay. Now, the next word is

2 "property." Does that property -- does the property

3 allegation contained in your PC Affidavit relate just

4 to Sabra Thornton or does it relate to any -- does it

5 relate to Mr. Coup? Is Mr. Coup alleged to have

6 stolen any property?

7 MR. EDGAR: Let me object here. I think

8 this is misleading.

9 MR. MURRAY: That's fine.

10 MR. EDGAR: It's very misleading. And I

11 can explain to counsel why.

12 MR. MURRAY: I can take your deposition,

13 Mr. Edgar.

14 MR. EDGAR: Let me finish, please. I can

15 explain it, if you would like. It will

16 facilitate the deposition. But if you don't,

17 you will not get correct answers, you're just

18 going to take longer. You can choose. If you

19 want to just proceed, go ahead.



20 MR. MURRAY: On the record, make your

21 statement.

22 MR. EDGAR: The problem is, is that the

23 property and funds and services go to inmates,

24 they go to equipment, they go to all of the

25 whole global theft of things involving multiple





58

1 people that don't pertain to Mr. Coup. To ask

2 him about the preamble that applies to

3 everybody and all types of things that Mr. Coup

4 isn't even charged with, I think, prolongs the

5 deposition. And I just want to clarify that.

6 I know you are not trying to be tricky, but

7 it's resulting in confusion.

8 MR. MURRAY: Okay.

9 MR. EDGAR: Thank you for letting me say

10 that.

11 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Mr. Crowder, you heard

12 what Mr. Edgar just put on the record?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. So my question to you is not related to

15 all of the other people. Do you have any facts or

16 information that indicates that Mr. Coup took any

17 property?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Okay. And what about services, the same



20 question as related to Mr. Coup?

21 A. No.

22 MR. EDGAR: Thank you.

23 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Okay. Now, second full

24 paragraph, are you with me?

25 A. Yes.





59

1 Q. During the course of this investigation,

2 we have interviewed witnesses, including employees of

3 the Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office. Did you

4 interview anybody other than those people reflected in

5 the FDLE reports?

6 A. Yes.

7 THE WITNESS: Hold on, let me ask Russ.

8 MR. MURRAY: Sure.

9 (Off-the-record comments were made.)

10 A. Okay. There were people that we've

11 interviewed since or during this investigation but

12 that is involving pending investigation.

13 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Does any of that relate

14 to conduct by Mr. Coup?

15 A. I can't say at this time.

16 MR. EDGAR: Potentially.

17 THE WITNESS: True.

18 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Okay. You're refusing

19 to answer my question and the basis for the refusal is



20 that there is an ongoing investigation?

21 A. Yes, sir; yes, sir.

22 Q. And is Mr. Coup a target of that ongoing

23 investigation?

24 A. We don't know yet, sir.

25 Q. Did you interview any inmates that gave





60

1 you any information that related to Mr. Coup?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And the auditors that you talked to, were

4 those auditors the same people that generated the two

5 audit reports that have been supplied to us?

6 A. I believe -- I believe it was only maybe

7 Mr. Gilliard.

8 Q. So should that be --

9 A. It could be others. I can't remember at

10 this time.

11 Q. Okay. What I'm trying to get to is: Did

12 you interview any auditors for which we do not have a

13 report on?

14 A. No, sir; no, sir.

15 Q. There were two audit reports and I think

16 they're both titled "Forensic Audit" interestingly

17 enough.

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. Are you aware of any other audit activity



20 other than that reflected in those two reports?

21 A. No, sir.

22 Q. And then you say other law enforcement

23 officers besides those that we've talked about, the

24 federal investigators that you've discussed and your

25 partner, Agent Nordstrom, and the people at the





61

1 Sheriff's Office, did you interview any other law

2 enforcement officers as it relates to Mr. Coup?

3 A. I don't -- I don't believe so.

4 Q. Okay. You indicate in your Affidavit you

5 examined corporate records. What corporate records

6 did you examine in the course of your investigation?

7 A. There were records pertaining to the

8 business of Mrs. Morris.

9 Q. Okay. My question to you, once again:

10 Were there any facts gleaned from that avenue of

11 investigation that involved or reflected upon Mr.

12 Coup?

13 A. Not that I remember.

14 Q. Are you pretty sure about that?

15 A. Pretty sure.

16 Q. Okay. Payroll, by that, are you talking

17 about the payroll records at the Okaloosa County

18 Sheriff's Office?

19 A. We looked at payroll records for other



20 organizations.

21 Q. Okay. As it relates to Mr. Coup, as it

22 applies to him factually --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- what payroll records did you identify

25 as having relevance to the charges pending against





62

1 him?

2 A. The college records where he was

3 teaching.

4 Q. And that's at Northwest Florida State

5 College?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. Anything else?


9 Q. Okay. Was there anything from the

10 examination of those records at the college that

11 indicated criminal conduct, in your mind, on Mr. Coup?

12 A. No, sir.

13 Q. Employment records, are those the

14 Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office and Northwest Florida

15 State College as it relates --

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. -- to Mr. Coup? The property records,

18 are those OCSO property records?

19 A. Yes, sir.



20 Q. Was there anything that you identified in

21 those property records and you've broken it out and

22 said vehicle, equipment and fuel usage, that indicated

23 any alleged misconduct on the part of Mr. Coup?

24 A. No, sir.

25 Q. On bank records, are there any other bank





63

1 records, other than Mr. Coup's personal accounts, that

2 you examined that reflect any misconduct on his part,

3 alleged misconduct?

4 A. Also would be the agency's bank accounts.

5 Q. Anything else other than the agency's

6 bank accounts and Mr. Coup's personal accounts?

7 A. And the accounts of his wife.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. And there were other accounts that he or

10 his wife are cosigners on with children or whatever.

11 And we looked at those and I can't remember if those

12 showed any evidence.

13 Q. Jail records, I assume that relates to

14 the inmates?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. Were those jail records the jail records

17 of the Okaloosa County Detention Center?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. Was there any information gleaned from



20 those records that reflected any alleged misconduct on

21 the part of Mr. Coup?

22 A. Not at this time.

23 Q. And then when you say, "Reviewed

24 investigative reports from other law enforcement

25 agencies," would that be the FBI and Internal Revenue





64

1 Service?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Are there any other law enforcement

4 agencies' reports that you reviewed?

5 A. Not pertaining to Mr. Coup.

6 Q. Now, I think you were asked this earlier,

7 and if so, I'll get to this as quickly as I can. You

8 identified OCSO employees as having returned money to

9 Morris from bonuses that they received?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is that an accurate statement?

12 A. That was based on the audit reports.

13 Q. And was the method of operation -- and if

14 you're not comfortable with that, you can assert your

15 own terms -- but the mechanism by which this occurred,

16 would be that the money would be deposited into the

17 employees' account electronically?

18 A. In the beginning, there were checks. I

19 can't remember if the kickbacks were related to those,



20 but I know there were bonuses that were issued out in

21 the beginning years in the form of checks as well as

22 electronic deposit, depending on what method the

23 employee had set up with the Sheriff's Office.

24 Q. Now, at some point in time, that money

25 that was transferred to the employees was, in fact,





65

1 the employees' money; am I correct?

2 MR. EDGAR: Object as argumentative.

3 A. Yeah.


5 question.

6 A. Are you talking about all bonuses or

7 bonuses related to kickbacks?

8 Q. No. I'm talking about as a trained

9 financial investigator that when money is transferred

10 into your account, assuming it's not a trust account,

11 it's your money; is that not an accurate statement?

12 A. No, sir.

13 Q. Okay. Why is it not accurate?

14 A. Are you talking in general and not a

15 legal transaction? I would agree. An illegal

16 transaction, which there was money stolen, it is not

17 property of the receiver, it is the property of the

18 victim.

19 Q. Okay. Now, in regards to, let's talk



20 about Kelly Cashman. You identified her as an

21 employee who had returned money to Charlie Morris?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you discern or uncover facts which

24 reflect that Kelly Cashman knew at the time she

25 returned money that it was for an illegal purpose?





66


2 question.

3 A. I -- I can't say. I don't know if we

4 did.

5 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Well, Jesse Jackson, who

6 was -- was there some money that she used?

7 A. Agreed or same, same answer.

8 Q. Okay. What about Larry Donaldson? He

9 returned 5,000 to the Sheriff. Did he know at the

10 time he returned that money that that was illegally

11 obtained money? Do you have any facts that indicated

12 that he knew that?

13 A. I believe his testimony will state so.

14 Q. That he did?

15 A. I believe you will see in the 302 and in

16 our recorded statement that you will see.

17 Q. Do you have a recorded statement of Larry

18 Donaldson?

19 A. I believe so.



20 MR. MURRAY: Off the record for a second.


22 MR. MURRAY: Let's get back on the

23 record.

24 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Do you know whether or

25 not there's an audio tape of Larry Donaldson's





67

1 interview?

2 A. Right now, I can't swear to it. I

3 thought we had one, but I'll have to go back and look

4 for it.

5 Q. Do you have any objections to checking,

6 and if you do, would you supply that to Mr. Edgar?

7 A. Certainly.

8 Q. And would you be good enough, through

9 Donna at the State Attorney's Office, to have her

10 notify us --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. -- as to whether or not such a tape

13 exists?

14 A. Uh-huh.

15 Q. Is that a yes?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Would your answer be the same -- would

18 your answer be the same for Mark Schniepp; he returned

19 $5,000?



20 A. Same answer.

21 Q. Do you --

22 A. Same answer as Schniepp being as

23 Donaldson.

24 Q. And do you know whether an audio tape of

25 Mark Schniepp, not the intercepts that the federal





68

1 agents did, but do you have an audio tape of Mark

2 Schniepp?

3 A. I believe we do.

4 Q. Okay. And I would make the same request

5 of you.

6 A. Are you saying that you have not received

7 an interview tape from Schniepp?

8 MS. MURRAY: I don't. I'll have to look.

9 Q. (By Mr. Murray) That's correct. George

10 Wilson returned money on four occasions, I believe, as

11 reflected in the 302's; did you interview him?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And was that recorded?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. I impose on you and make the same

16 request to Mr. Wilson.

17 Sarah Irish returned money, based upon

18 our analysis of the discovery, of one occasion; did

19 you interview her?



20 A. She has been interviewed. I do not

21 remember if I participated in that and I do not

22 remember if there was an interview tape.

23 Q. Okay. Would that have been something

24 that Agent Nordstrom would have perhaps done on his

25 own?





69

1 A. It's possible.

2 Q. Debbie Barrineau returned $3,000; is that

3 an accurate statement?

4 A. I don't remember how much she returned,

5 but she did participate.

6 Q. She returned money on one occasion?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Okay. Did you interview her?

9 A. Yes, we did.

10 Q. And is there an audio tape of that

11 interview?

12 A. I'd say yes, based on the fact that we

13 did interview tapes on almost all of these people.

14 Q. Angel --

15 A. DeJesus.

16 Q. -- DeJesus, you interviewed him?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you believe there's an audio tape on

19 him?



20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Mike Hull?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Same question, audio tape?

24 A. Audio tape.

25 Q. Would it be fair to say that on the





70

1 majority of the interviews that you conducted that

2 your practice would be to record the interview?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is that a fair statement?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Okay. Michelle Nicholson, did you

7 interview her?

8 A. Yes, we did.

9 Q. Sandy Norris?

10 A. Yes, we did.

11 Q. Robert (sic) Phifer?

12 A. Roberta.

13 Q. I'm sorry, Roberta?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You interviewed her?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Nicole Wagner?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you interview Terry Adams?



20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How many times did you interview Terry

22 Adams?

23 A. One, maybe. I think only one.

24 Q. Okay. And was that -- and who

25 participated in that interview; yourself and who else?





71

1 A. Agent Norris -- or Nordstrom and, I

2 believe, Mr. Edgar was there --

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. -- along with her attorney.

5 Q. She had an attorney?

6 A. I believe so and she also had a friend

7 there. I can't remember her name.

8 Q. Okay. Did you make a note of that in

9 your notes?

10 A. Of what?

11 Q. Of who the friend was.

12 A. I believe it is in my notes.

13 Q. Now, did you record that interview?

14 A. I say yes, but we have not been able to

15 find that recording. We have looked and since I think

16 the defense raised the issue, we went back and we

17 cannot find it.

18 Q. Would the recordings that you made, are

19 they entered into an evidence locker --



20 A. No.

21 Q. -- or to an evidence custodian?

22 A. No. We take it and we put it on our

23 network hard drive. And in some cases, we make a copy

24 and put it on a CD. Most of the time, it's just put

25 onto our network.





72

1 Q. Explain to me the mechanism that you

2 record an interview. I mean, is there a digital

3 recorder that you use?

4 A. Yes, sir. In this case, we used digital

5 recorders, we copied -- take the recording and then we

6 would download it onto, like I said, our network.

7 That's if I did it. If Mr. Nordstrom did it, then I

8 don't know what procedure he did, other than he would

9 provide us a copy of what he did.

10 Q. Okay. Randall Holcombe, did you

11 interview him?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And did you record that interview?

14 A. I believe so.

15 Q. Okay. We've not received -- just to kind

16 of go over the list of folks, we don't have an audio

17 recording for Cashman, Jackson, Donaldson, Schniepp,

18 Wilson, Irish, Barrineau, DeJesus, Hull, Nicholson.

19 A. That should have been part of the initial



20 discovery.

21 Q. And if you've provided that, if you can

22 identify the disk that it's located on.

23 MR. EDGAR: We'll tell you if we provided

24 it. If we can do that, we will.

25 MR. MURRAY: Okay.





73

1 Q. (By Mr. Murray) And we don't have the

2 Adams' interview and we don't have the Hull --

3 A. I've looked for that and I cannot find

4 that.

5 Q. You believe for some reason --

6 A. We recorded it and somehow it got lost in

7 the...

8 Q. Okay. How many bonuses did you identify

9 that Michael Coup returned money to the Sheriff?

10 A. At least once.

11 Q. Okay. Now, in your Affidavit, you

12 indicate that there were two.

13 A. I can talk to the one that's in my

14 memory. I can't remember the second one, when that

15 occurred.

16 Q. And I draw your attention to page one of

17 the Affidavit, the last paragraph. And in there, it

18 says on at least -- on at least two occasions Coup

19 returned part of the payments in cash to Morris. Are



20 you aware -- we know about one.

21 A. Right.

22 Q. Is that a mistake?

23 A. No, sir, that's not a mistake. I just

24 can't remember.

25 Q. Do you not know where the second amount





74

1 of money is that he has alleged to have returned or

2 what bonus it is associated with?

3 A. Like I say, sir, I can't remember that

4 specific bonus. I would have to go back and look at

5 the reports, the audit reports.

6 Q. And would it be the audit reports that

7 you would rely upon to discern whether or not there

8 was one or two bonuses that money was returned by --

9 A. I would look at --

10 Q. -- Mr. Coup?

11 A. I would look at the audit report as well

12 as bank records and any analysis that was conducted.

13 Q. Okay. Well, who conducted the analysis

14 of the bank records that may reflect whether or not

15 there was a second return of money by Mr. Coup?

16 A. I did.

17 Q. And as you sit here today, you don't know

18 the answer to that question?

19 A. I can't talk specifically to that. This



20 case is a very big case and it's just -- there's a lot

21 of bonuses.

22 Q. Admitted and I acknowledge that. What

23 I'm trying to get at, because this is an important

24 point, is what do you need to review in order to

25 answer my question?





75

1 MR. EDGAR: Why does he need to review

2 it? He doesn't have to do what you ask him to

3 do, Mr. Murray.

4 MR. MURRAY: I'm not going to engage in

5 that. I'm just asking him. I have got a

6 question posed.

7 MR. EDGAR: Answer the question.

8 Hypothetically, if you were required for some

9 reason to do this, what would you look at?

10 THE WITNESS: I would look at the audit

11 reports, the Sheriff's Office reports of monies

12 going out, the bank records of Mr. Coup, his

13 wife, his children and look at any analysis.

14 Q. (By Mr. Murray) And you are the person

15 that did the analysis; are you not?

16 MR. EDGAR: That's already been asked.

17 Object to the form.


19 question.



20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And would the answer to my question as to

22 the identity of the second amount of money, would that

23 be contained within your notes?

24 A. Not in my notes, but in my work product.

25 Q. And if you would, tell me what you're





76

1 defining as work product.

2 A. This analysis of different accounts

3 provided to the prosecutor.

4 Q. Is it a written summary that you --

5 A. No, sir.

6 Q. Okay. Now, you've got bank records; are

7 you saying that's your work product?

8 A. No, sir.

9 Q. What did you generate that you're saying

10 is your work product generated from your analysis?

11 A. I did a spreadsheet.

12 Q. Okay. And does Mr. Edgar have that

13 spreadsheet?

14 A. It's been provided, yes.

15 Q. Do you know if that was provided to the

16 defense?

17 MR. EDGAR: It was not.

18 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Is this a spreadsheet

19 that you prepared based upon your analysis of



20 financial transactions involving Mr. Coup?

21 A. Not only Mr. Coup, but others.

22 Q. Okay. Well, I'm limiting myself just to

23 Mr. Coup.

24 A. Yeah.

25 Q. Is this spreadsheet an Excel spreadsheet?





77

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you've not provided that because the

3 prosecutor told you not to provide it?

4 A. That's our process in which we're doing

5 an analysis. At least, you can say it's part of my

6 notes.

7 Q. Okay. What information do you have that

8 Michael Coup knew of kickbacks being given to Morris

9 or money being returned to him?

10 A. He received the first -- one of the first

11 ones.

12 Q. Okay. Anything else other than that?

13 And I'm looking for facts here.

14 A. As provided in the discovery, you have

15 the UC of Mark Schniepp talking to -- talking to him.

16 Q. The intercept, anything else other than

17 that? You've told me that he returned money on one

18 occasion, you said the first time. And then you

19 have -- and you made reference to the undercover



20 intercept that Mark Schniepp did; anything else?

21 A. It would be the second kickback.

22 Q. And that's reflected in your Excel

23 spreadsheet?

24 A. It is reflected in the documents.

25 Q. That you examined?





78

1 A. The bank account records --

2 Q. That you examined?

3 A. -- all the things -- yes.

4 Q. Now, did any witness -- did you interview

5 any witness that told you that Michael knew that the

6 Sheriff was returning money or money was being

7 returned to the Sheriff? Did any witness tell you

8 that Michael Coup knew?

9 A. The interview of Mark Schniepp.

10 Q. Okay. And would that interview which we

11 don't have yet, but I assume -- would I be correct in

12 assuming that it revolves around the intercept?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Other than Mark Schniepp, any other

15 witness?

16 A. Not that I can think of right now.

17 Q. Is that something that you would

18 remember?

19 A. It should be, yes.



20 Q. Okay, thank you for your candor. The

21 records that you talked about, we've talked about,

22 those are the financial records that you previously

23 identified in your answers to other questions?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. No other records?





79

1 A. Not that I can think of.

2 Q. Do you have any physical evidence, any

3 writings or documents that indicate that Mr. Coup knew

4 that employees of the Sheriff's Office were returning

5 money to the Sheriff?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Okay. The same series of questions as it

8 relates to kickbacks to fund gambling trips, what

9 information do you have that Michael Coup knew that

10 the money being returned to the Sheriff was being used

11 to fund gambling trips?

12 MR. EDGAR: I'm going to object to the

13 question as overly broad.



16 question.

17 A. Okay.

18 MR. EDGAR: And it calls for an opinion

19 or a conclusion on the part of the witness.




21 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Do I need to read the

22 question back to you?

23 A. Sure.

24 MR. MURRAY: Madam court reporter?






80

1 as follows:

2 Q. "Okay. The same series of

3 questions as it relates to kickbacks to fund

4 gambling trips, what information do you have

5 that Michael Coup knew that the money being

6 returned to the Sheriff was being used to fund

7 gambling trips?")

8 A. His -- him receiving the bonuses.

9 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Anything else, other

10 than him receiving one or more bonuses?

11 A. At this moment, I can't think of anything

12 else.

13 Q. Well, that's an important point,

14 Investigator Crowder; is that something you would

15 probably remember?

16 MR. EDGAR: Objection; argumentative.

17 Q. (By Mr. Murray) It's a question, you can

18 answer it.

19 A. Yeah.



20 MR. EDGAR: What is the question; is it

21 important or not? What is the question?

22 Objection; it's argumentative.

23 A. At this time, that's all I've got.

24 Q. (By Mr. Murray) At this time, you don't

25 have any other information --





81

1 A. Right.

2 Q. -- that you can recall? Okay. What

3 information do you have that Michael Coup knew that

4 money was being returned to the Sheriff and was being

5 used to fund gifts for one or more employees?

6 A. I'm not -- I would think that was brought

7 out in what he was told by the Sheriff and maybe also

8 in Schniepp's interview.

9 Q. Okay. Well, let's start with the

10 Sheriff. What are you making reference to when he was

11 told by the Sheriff; told what by the Sheriff?

12 A. Well, let me take that back. I don't

13 know. I can't remember what he was told. That was an

14 assumption. I would have to go back and review that

15 interview that we conducted --

16 Q. Interview --

17 A. -- as well as the report.

18 Q. Which interview are you making reference

19 to, sir?



20 A. Of Coup, Mr. Coup.

21 Q. Okay. Would you have any other

22 information, other than the interviews that are

23 documented in 302's, that you would have reviewed?

24 A. Our interview tapes --

25 Q. Okay.





82

1 A. -- of Mr. Coup.

2 Q. Do you have an interview of Mr. Coup?

3 A. Should, yes.

4 Q. Okay. And is that -- did you follow the

5 same procedure that you did on the other witnesses,

6 that is to say you digitally recorded --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. -- and then downloaded?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. MURRAY: Russ, we need that.

11 MR. EDGAR: I don't think it exists.

12 THE WITNESS: On Coup?

13 MR. EDGAR: Yeah. I thought that he had

14 a lawyer and he wouldn't give us an interview.

15 Are you talking about the FBI or the IRS

16 interview?

17 THE WITNESS: Yeah.

18 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Are you making

19 reference, by chance, to any of the internal affairs



20 interviews that were being conducted?

21 A. No, not at all.

22 Q. Did you have access to any of those?

23 A. No, we did not.

24 Q. Did you review any of those?

25 A. No, we did not.





83

1 Q. Did anybody provide those to you?

2 A. No, they did not.

3 Q. As you sit here today, have you ever seen

4 them?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Have you ever seen any reports from the

7 internal affairs investigation?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Are you sure about that?

10 A. I am sure.

11 Q. Okay. Do you have any information that

12 Coup received gifts as a result of money being

13 returned to the Sheriff other than bonuses?


15 question as vague, ambiguous.

16 A. Other than the cash that he received?

17 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Correct.

18 A. None other than...

19 Q. You told me about the cash; anything



20 else?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you have any information that Coup

23 knew that money being returned to the Sheriff was

24 being used to fund credit card bills?

25 A. Please say that again.





84

1 Q. Do you have any information that Coup

2 knew that money being returned to the Sheriff was

3 being used to fund credit card bills? And I'm drawing

4 from your Affidavit.

5 A. Are you talking about for Sabra Thornton?

6 Q. Anybody. We'll start with Sabra

7 Thornton.

8 A. No, I don't have any knowledge of that

9 for Sabra or for anybody else.

10 Q. Okay. Now, other than what you've told

11 me about one or more bonuses, do you have any other

12 information that Coup benefited from this -- and it's

13 characterized as a kickback scheme -- other than the

14 two bonuses?

15 A. Well, he actually received cash from the

16 Sheriff.

17 Q. Okay. And was that -- are you

18 characterizing that as a bonus or a gift or --

19 A. It's not a gift and it wasn't a bonus, it



20 was a cash handout.

21 Q. Okay. Now, in your examination of the SO

22 records -- OCSO records, did you discover a document

23 in which withhelding (sic) -- where that money was

24 documented withholding had been taken out?

25 A. Withholding, are you talking about





85

1 federal?

2 Q. I'm talking about federal taxes.

3 A. Okay, say that again, now.

4 Q. In your process of reviewing OCSO

5 financial records --

6 A. Uh-huh.

7 Q. -- and I believe you told me that you

8 had --

9 A. Uh-huh.

10 Q. -- or have --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. -- were you able to document that that

13 7,000-dollar cash money that Mr. Coup is alleged to

14 have received, whether or not federal withholding

15 taxes and retirement were taken out of it?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Are you saying that there is no such

18 record or you don't know?

19 A. No, no proof that it was done.



20 Q. Okay. Now, you make reference in your

21 Affidavit about -- and I'm right above sub paragraph

22 (a), Michael J. Coup, the kickbacks increased each

23 year involving more and more OCSO employees to cover

24 increased expenses of the Sheriff and his accomplices.

25 Who are you making reference to when you're talking





86

1 about accomplices?

2 A. It would be the people that were charged.

3 Q. So are you -- are you describing the five

4 who are charged in the State case --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- as accomplices?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Anybody else?

9 A. There would be others that were

10 unwilling.

11 Q. Who are those people, Investigator

12 Crowder?

13 A. I would say Cashman.

14 Q. Cashman, in your mind, is an accomplice?

15 A. Well, she was an unwilling. She was a

16 clerk that was told by Norris to do it and by the

17 Sheriff to do it.

18 Q. Okay, anybody else?

19 MR. KLOTZ: I'm sorry, did you say Norris



20 or Morris to do it?

21 THE WITNESS: Norris -- well, Norris and

22 Morris.

23 MR. KLOTZ: Okay. I'm sorry, go ahead.

24 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Anybody else?

25 A. That's it that I can think of right now.





87

1 Q. Who drafted this Affidavit of Probable

2 Cause?

3 A. It was a combination effort of Nordstrom,

4 myself with overview/oversight by Mr. Edgar.

5 Q. Who actually typed it out; was that Donna

6 at the State Attorney's Office?

7 A. No, myself; myself and Nordstrom.

8 Q. Okay. So this was a joint effort on the

9 part of you, Agent Nordstrom and Mr. Edgar?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Fair statement?

12 A. Fair statement.

13 Q. Okay, okay. I'm still on this last

14 paragraph above sub (a); are you with me?

15 A. (Witness nods head).

16 Q. You said in your Affidavit to cover

17 increased expenses. To cover increased expenses, what

18 are you talking about when you talk about increased

19 expenses?



20 A. Talking about the Thornton expenses --

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. -- as well as Vegas expenses and other

23 trips.

24 Q. Okay. Which Vegas trips, all of them or

25 some of them?





88

1 A. Now, there were some people that took

2 Vegas trips that paid for their own, so I can't

3 account for those. But the ones that primarily the

4 Sheriff participated in, primarily. There were

5 others, but I can't speak to those today.

6 Q. Now, your investigation revealed that

7 Mr. Coup traveled to Las Vegas; am I correct?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Did you determine whether or not he paid

10 for those himself?

11 A. I believe he did receive some -- some

12 funding for that, some funding bonus for that.

13 Q. If I understand your answer correctly,

14 and you correct me if I'm wrong, the response is he

15 paid for it, but you believe that the money that he

16 paid for it with came from the bonuses given to him by

17 the Sheriff?

18 A. I believe there was on at least one

19 occasion.



20 Q. Anything else other --

21 A. Also --

22 Q. Go ahead.

23 A. -- I believe Mr. Yacks was paid for the

24 travel airline tickets for Coup.

25 Q. That Mr. Coup paid Mr. Yacks?





89

1 A. No, I don't believe Mr. Coup paid on at

2 least one occasion.

3 Q. So is it your testimony here today that

4 Mr. Coup got a free trip to Las Vegas and never paid

5 for it, because it was funded by some other source to

6 Mr. Yacks?

7 A. I believe so.

8 Q. And which trip are you talking about?

9 A. I don't know which ones.

10 Q. Would that be reflected on the

11 spreadsheet that you've previously described?

12 A. I would have to go back and look. It may

13 be and maybe not. I would have to go back and look at

14 that.

15 Q. But as you sit here today, you are not

16 able to answer my question?

17 A. I'm not able to answer it, no, sir.

18 Q. Okay. I'm still on your Affidavit and

19 Michael J. Coup sub paragraph (a). Michael J. Coup,



20 Chief Deputy, sworn law enforcement officer,

21 facilitated the scheme by participating in it on

22 several occasions. Now, you talk about facilitation

23 was accomplished by participation. What participation

24 are you making reference to there? Is it the receipt

25 of the bonuses or is it something else?





90

1 A. Receiving the bonuses.

2 Q. Anything else?

3 A. And knowing it was going on.

4 Q. Okay. Now, what information do you have;

5 what witnesses told you or what fact do you have that

6 indicates that he knew what was going on?

7 A. I already told you that, sir. I told you

8 that he received it. He was one of the first ones

9 that received it. Schniepp talked to him about it.

10 Q. Now, the date that Schniepp talked to him

11 about it, the federal investigation was already well

12 underway; is that a fair statement?

13 A. It was underway, I don't know about well.

14 That's -- that's...

15 Q. Do you know how many days it was between

16 the date of the Schniepp intercept and the date of

17 Sheriff Morris' arrest?

18 A. No, sir, I don't.

19 Q. Do you know what, if anything, Mr. Coup



20 was doing during that time period?

21 A. When the Sheriff was arrested?

22 Q. Between the intercept date by Mark

23 Schniepp and the date of the arrest; do you know what

24 his calendar looked like?

25 A. No, sir.





91

1 Q. Did you ever look into that as an

2 investigator?

3 A. I believe we asked Barrineau for his

4 calendar and she did not have -- could not provide

5 very much, if anything.

6 Q. Now, you make reference on the second

7 paragraph under sub (a) that Coup had received 98,000

8 in gross and 61 net bonus payments. Are you -- do you

9 know whether or not all of those bonuses were in

10 violation of the law or that some were okay and some

11 weren't?

12 MR. EDGAR: Object to the question.

13 You're asking an unfair conclusion of the

14 witness about the law.


16 question.

17 A. Again, I do not know if all of these

18 bonuses are legal. That's not -- I don't see that as

19 my -- in my area of expertise to determine the law on



20 bonuses that the Sheriff has given out. But at least

21 on two occasions, we felt that they were illegal.

22 Q. And just of the bonuses received, you

23 believe misconduct occurred on two of them?

24 A. At least.

25 Q. But as you sit here today, do you know of





92

1 any others?

2 MR. EDGAR: Objection. That's been asked

3 and answered at least twice, I think.

4 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Answer the question,

5 please.

6 A. At least two of these bonuses we feel are

7 illegal. The others may be. But at this time, I

8 don't have an opinion on that -- or should I say not

9 an opinion, but proof.

10 Q. Okay. Now, I've turned the page to

11 paragraph two of your Affidavit. And you cite in your

12 Affidavit, "According to OCSO employees, Coup

13 obstructed, delayed or prevented communication of

14 information relating to the schemes that was reported

15 by OCSO employees to him." What employees told you

16 that Mr. Coup obstructed, delayed or prevented

17 communication?

18 A. Schniepp.

19 Q. Okay.



20 A. I can't remember who the other employees

21 are, but...

22 Q. What did Mr. Schniepp tell you that Mr.

23 Coup did?

24 A. Again, sir, that is in the -- the 302.

25 We based our information on the 302 on that. But he





93

1 reported it to Coup and Coup told him he knew about

2 it, he had actually received one and just to continue

3 marching on.

4 Q. Okay. Do you have any information other

5 than the 302's and the intercept on Mark Schniepp that

6 Mr. Coup obstructed, delayed or prevented

7 communication?

8 A. I believe the interview by Nordstrom and

9 myself of Schniepp.

10 Q. Of Schniepp?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. And that's audio recorded; am I correct?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. And that would speak for itself?

15 A. It should, yes, sir.

16 Q. What actions did Mr. Coup take to

17 obstruct, delay or prevent communication?

18 A. He told Schniepp to continue marching on,

19 not to...



20 Q. Now, is that a quote or a paraphrase?

21 A. That's a paraphrase.

22 Q. Is it your position as the lead

23 investigator on the State case that it was Mr. Coup's

24 failure to do something?






94

1 question in asking the witness his position.

2 This is a fact witness. Object to the form of

3 the question.


5 question.

6 A. Restate the question, please.



9 as follows:

10 Q. "Is it your position as the lead

11 investigator on the State case that it was Mr.

12 Coup's failure to do something?"

13 A. Are you asking my opinion? Yes, sir.

14 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Do you have any other

15 information that other than his failure to act that he

16 did anything else to obstruct, delay or prevent

17 communication?

18 A. Failed to report.

19 Q. Failed to report to whom?



20 A. To -- or to take action.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. He is the number two officer in the

23 agency and he received one of the first bonuses. He

24 did not take action or report it to anyone.

25 Q. What information do you have that would





95

1 put -- that you believe put Mr. Coup on notice that

2 the return of money to the Sheriff was an illegal act?

3 MR. EDGAR: Again, I'm going to object to

4 the form of the question as speculation and

5 opinions of the witness. He is a fact witness.

6 MR. MURRAY: Okay.


8 question.

9 MR. EDGAR: You may answer the question.

10 You should answer the question, but you not

11 necessarily can answer the question. That's up

12 to you whether you can or not.

13 A. Sir, you're asking me to think what Mr.

14 Coup was thinking. I don't know what he was thinking,

15 but what he should have.

16 Q. (By Mr. Murray) That's not what I'm

17 asking you. I'm saying what facts do you have that

18 placed him on notice that when he returned money to

19 the Sheriff at the Sheriff's request in 2006, the



20 first bonus, what facts do you have that indicated

21 that he knew that that was an illegal act?

22 A. Based on his training and experience as a

23 law enforcement officer, he should have known.

24 Q. And did you -- do you know what his

25 training and law enforcement experience is?





96

1 A. We did look at it at one time.

2 Q. Is there any statutory authority that

3 requires him to report that you're relying upon?

4 A. I don't know of any that I can quote

5 right now.

6 Q. And I'm not talking about whether or not

7 a professional law enforcement officer may have a

8 moral obligation. I'm saying do you know of any

9 statutory requirement --

10 MR. EDGAR: I object. This is

11 argumentative.

12 MR. MURRAY: Let me complete my question,

13 please.

14 MR. EDGAR: I object. This is arguing

15 with the witness.

16 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Do you have any

17 statutory authority that requires Mr. Coup to take

18 action on this set of circumstances?

19 A. I can't answer that at this time.



20 MR. EDGAR: Are you about finished, Jim?

21 Because it's lunch time.

22 MR. MURRAY: It's going to go while.

23 MR. EDGAR: It's not going to go through

24 lunch, we've got to get lunch.

25 MR. MURRAY: Off the record.





97


2 MR. MURRAY: We're back on the record.

3 MR. EDGAR: If it's a good breaking

4 point. I mean, a few minutes either way, I

5 don't care, but we've got to break.

6 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Now, my first question

7 to you, Mr. Crowder, when we get back is going to be

8 whether or not you and Mr. Edgar discussed this case

9 over lunch. Just putting you on notice about that.

10 A. Okay.

11 MR. EDGAR: So you think we can't? Do

12 you think we can't talk about this case?

13 MR. MURRAY: I'm just saying that's going

14 to be my first question.

15 MR. PETERSEN: Are we through?

16 MR. MURRAY: We're just breaking for

17 lunch.

18 MR. PETERSEN: Okay.

19 (Whereupon, a lunch recess was taken at



20 12:00 p.m., after which the deposition

21 continued at 1:48 p.m.)

22 MR. MURRAY: We're back from lunch. If

23 you want to, you can just make a copy of that

24 as an exhibit.

25 A. Okay. What I've provided to the defense





98

1 attorneys is a CD of all of the recordings that we

2 did, provided in the first discovery, dated on or

3 about 10/22/09. And that's a CD of those recordings.

4 And then there are three other recordings

5 that were provided in the second discovery and those

6 were Jesse Jackson, Larry James Timmons and Mike

7 Carol, not provided, but just those were provided in

8 the second discovery.

9 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Your belief being that

10 they are on the second discovery disk and we can just

11 look?

12 A. The three, I went online and looked on

13 our records, and it shows that they were given in the

14 second discovery.

15 MR. MURRAY: Okay, State's Exhibit 1.

16 (State's Exhibit No. 1 was marked for

17 identification.)

18 Q. (By Mr. Murray) I think where we left

19 off, Investigator Crowder, is I was asking you the



20 facts or information that you had that Michael Coup

21 had obstructed or delayed or prevented communications.

22 A. I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.

23 Q. I think where we left off was talking to

24 you about your PC Affidavit.

25 A. Yes, sir.





99

1 Q. We were discussing what facts or

2 information you had concerning Mr. Coup obstructing,

3 delaying or preventing communications. And I want to

4 just be sure that we covered that. Beyond Mark

5 Schniepp, do you know of anybody else fact-wise that

6 you believe that Mr. Coup obstructed, delayed or

7 prevented communications?

8 A. That's it.

9 Q. Now, do you have any facts or

10 information, based upon your investigation, that Mr.

11 Coup ever talked to the Sheriff about the

12 conversations that he and Mr. Schniepp had? And I'll

13 start first with the intercept.

14 A. No, I don't have any.

15 Q. Do you have any information that Michael

16 Coup -- and I'm talking about facts now, facts or

17 witnesses -- that reflect that Michael Coup reported

18 that certain employees within the Sheriff's Office

19 were either talking about or knew about the return of



20 money to him for bonuses?

21 A. I'm sorry, one more time.



24 as follows:

25 Q. "Do you have any information that





100

1 Michael Coup -- and I'm talking about facts

2 now, facts or witnesses -- that reflect that

3 Michael Coup reported that certain employees

4 within the Sheriff's Office were either talking

5 about or knew about the return of money to him

6 for bonuses?"

7 A. You're asking if he ever reported that

8 information?

9 Q. (By Mr. Murray) To Morris.

10 A. No, I don't.

11 Q. You don't; you don't have any?

12 A. That he reported it, no.

13 Q. Or that he had a discussion with

14 Mr. Morris, facts or witnesses?


16 Q. You make reference to the fact in your

17 Affidavit that Charlie Morris pressured employees to

18 keep quiet. Who are the employees that you're making

19 reference to?



20 A. That's all in the 302's that we got that

21 information from.

22 Q. Well, I'm actually looking at your

23 Affidavit when I ask you that question.

24 A. We based it on the 302's and our recorded

25 interviews. They would have been provided in that





101

1 form.

2 Q. Of your own knowledge today, do you -- do

3 you know who those employees are?

4 A. I can't state who they are today.

5 Q. Whoever those witnesses are, if they

6 exist, are reflected in either the 302's or the

7 witness statements that you provided?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. There are no others?


11 Q. Do you have any information or facts or

12 witnesses that Michael Coup pressured any OCSO

13 employee to keep quiet about the Sheriff returning

14 money from bonuses?

15 A. The wire intercept that Schniepp had.

16 Q. Anything else other than the contents of

17 that intercept?

18 A. I believe you'll find that in the report,

19 FDLE -- or not FDLE, but FBI report on Gay.



20 Q. And did you interview Ron Gay?

21 A. We did talk to him. I'm not sure we

22 did -- I know I did talk to him. I'm not sure if it

23 was a formal interview.

24 Q. What did Ron Gay tell you?

25 A. He inquired about -- I have to take it





102

1 back. It was in reference to someone else. It was

2 not in reference to this. It was in reference to

3 something else.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. Sabra Thornton, that he felt pressured by

6 the Sheriff.

7 Q. Did he ever indicate -- did Ron Gay ever

8 tell you that he had been pressured by Michael Coup?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Were there any other witnesses that you

11 identified that told you that they were pressured by

12 Michael Coup?

13 A. Not that I can think of right now.

14 Q. Based on your investigation, did the

15 Sheriff have a particular method of obtaining money

16 from employees and telling them what the money was for

17 once he would award bonuses? If you don't understand

18 that question, I can rephrase it.

19 A. Please do.



20 Q. Did the Sheriff tell the employees that

21 he asked the money from after he had awarded bonuses,

22 did he tell them what he was going to use it for?

23 A. He said there were other employees that

24 were in need.

25 Q. He indicated that these were OCSO





103

1 employees?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Now, your subsequent investigation has

4 shown that that was not a truthful statement; correct?

5 A. As far as I can tell.

6 Q. Okay. Now, did your investigation

7 demonstrate that the Sheriff had on previous occasions

8 provided money to employees who were, in fact, in

9 need?

10 A. Previous employees being?

11 Q. Well, on previous occasions to employees.


13 question. It's vague.

14 Q. (By Mr. Murray) You can answer.

15 A. He did provide monies to -- to some

16 employees, yes.

17 Q. And who; who were those employees, based

18 on your investigation?

19 A. DeJesus was one and...



20 Q. Okay. And I don't want to derail your

21 train of thought here, but do you know what the reason

22 that DeJesus was?

23 A. DeJesus had a family member that was ill

24 or dying or had died out of country and was flying to.

25 Q. Okay. Who else?





104

1 A. There was another employee that I believe

2 had a fire in the house. I don't know who that was.

3 And that's all I can remember at this time.

4 Q. What about hurricane-sustained damage,

5 the employees that had suffered hurricane damage?

6 A. Instead of the fire, there might have

7 been hurricane damage, there could have been hurricane

8 damage to a home.

9 Q. Do you know how many employees were given

10 money for that?

11 A. No, sir.

12 Q. Did your investigation reflect that it

13 was well-known within the Okaloosa County Sheriff's

14 Office, the Sheriff would aid employees' needs?

15 A. No, sir, I don't know that.

16 Q. Did you ever inquire of that?

17 A. I don't believe I asked that question.

18 Q. Okay. Did any of the employees who

19 returned money tell you that they were pressured by



20 the Sheriff to return the money?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did the employees indicate to you that

23 they returned the money simply because the Sheriff had

24 asked for it and they didn't have any concerns?






105

1 question. It's misleading the way it's

2 phrased, "the employees."

3 Q. (By Mr. Murray) The employees you

4 interviewed, go ahead.

5 MR. EDGAR: All of them? What are you --

6 object to the question.

7 MR. MURRAY: That's fine.

8 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Answer the question, if

9 you can.

10 A. Some of the employees gave that as a

11 reason that the Sheriff came to them. He was the

12 Sheriff and they felt like they were obligated to.

13 Q. Did those employees that told you they

14 felt they were obligated, did they ever indicate to

15 you that by words or actions the Sheriff had engaged

16 in any type of intimidation other than the request for

17 money?

18 A. No, sir.

19 Q. Other than Donaldson and Schniepp, do you



20 have any witnesses or information or facts that

21 indicate that Coup knew of anybody else that had

22 returned money?

23 A. No.

24 Q. In the course of conducting your

25 investigation, do you have any information that





106

1 Michael Coup knew of the use of inmates allegedly for

2 improper purposes?

3 A. I tend to remember there was something

4 that came up, but I can't remember specifically what

5 it was.

6 Q. Was it a witness interview or a fact that

7 you uncovered?

8 A. It would most likely have been a witness

9 interview.

10 Q. And do you recall who that witness is?

11 A. No, sir.

12 Q. Was Dennis Nordstrom with you when you

13 interviewed that witness?

14 A. Again, I don't remember who the witness

15 was, so I don't -- I would assume so, since he was on

16 most interviews with me.

17 Q. But as you sit here today, you don't --

18 you think maybe such a witness exists but you don't --

19 are not able to identify?



20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. Did you have an occasion to interview

22 inmates?

23 A. Yes, we did.

24 Q. And did you record those interviews?

25 A. Some interviews. I won't be able to say





107

1 all.

2 Q. And are those interviews reflected on the

3 list that you gave us today?

4 A. One is and I'm not sure about others. I

5 don't recognize the names, but we did talk to a lot of

6 inmates.

7 Q. Did you record those interviews that you

8 believed -- did you record those interviews of inmates

9 that you believed had information that was relevant to

10 your criminal investigation?

11 A. Uh-huh.

12 Q. Is that a yes?

13 A. Did we record?

14 Q. The interviews of those inmates that had

15 information --

16 A. Yeah.

17 Q. -- that you believed --

18 A. I believe so, but there are occasions

19 that we don't do a recording thinking we're going to



20 do it later and just not get to it, but I think we

21 probably did.

22 Q. Did any inmate that you interviewed tell

23 you that they knew Michael Coup, knew of what use they

24 were being put to?

25 A. No, sir.





108

1 Q. Specifically, what information do you

2 have that Michael Coup had knowledge concerning the

3 improper use of funds by Sabra Thornton? I'm breaking

4 this up. We're talking about funds to start with.

5 A. I believe he knew about the $8,000 to pay

6 for the lease.

7 Q. For the lease?

8 A. Yes, sir, lease pay-off.

9 Q. And what witness or facts do you have

10 that lead you to that belief?

11 A. I can't remember what witness or fact

12 gave that to me, but I feel like that -- we had that

13 information.

14 Q. If it was a witness, would it be

15 reflected on audio tape, the interview?

16 A. Most likely, yes, if we had interviewed

17 them.

18 Q. Okay. Now, the same question as to the

19 improper use of equipment by Sabra Thornton. What



20 facts or witnesses or information do you have that

21 leads you to believe that Michael Coup had knowledge

22 of the improper use of equipment by Sabra Thornton?

23 A. He was the Chief Deputy, he should know

24 what all is going on in the agency.

25 (Whereupon, Mr. Edgar left the conference





109

1 room at 2:03 p.m. and the deposition continued

2 as follows:)

3 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Beyond being Chief

4 Deputy, do you have any witnesses or facts that

5 indicate that he specifically knew of the improper use

6 of equipment by Sabra Thornton?

7 A. I don't know at this time.

8 Q. In the course of your investigation, were

9 you able to establish who at the Sheriff's Office was

10 responsible for setting salaries?

11 A. The Sheriff.

12 Q. Did anybody else, other than the Sheriff,

13 have the authority to set salaries?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. If I told you that the Sheriff was the

16 only person who could set salaries at the Sheriff's

17 Office, do you have any facts or information to

18 dispute that assertion?

19 A. No.



20 Q. Do you have any facts or witnesses or

21 information that Michael Coup knew about the improper

22 restoration of leave time for certain employees?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Now, what information do you have that

25 Michael Coup reached an agreement in the course of





110

1 this conspiracy with Sandy Norris? What fact or

2 witness do you have that can say there was an

3 agreement?

4 A. I don't have anything.

5 Q. What about with David Yacks?

6 A. I don't have anything.

7 Q. Do you have any witnesses or facts that

8 indicate that they were present when Charlie Morris

9 and Michael Coup reached any kind of an agreement?

10 (Whereupon, Mr. Edgar entered the

11 conference room at 2:05 p.m. and the deposition

12 continued as follows:)

13 A. No.

14 Q. (By Mr. Murray) And the same question

15 concerning Terry Adams?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Based on your investigation concerning

18 the racketeering charge that was alleged in your

19 Probable Cause Affidavit, who was the primary person



20 or leader in that racketeering enterprise?

21 A. Sheriff Morris.

22 Q. Okay. Now, do you have any information

23 that Michael Coup conducted that enterprise? And I'm

24 going to ask you the question about participation in a

25 minute, but you've told me that Sheriff Morris was the





111

1 lead guy. Do you have any facts or witnesses or

2 information that indicates that Michael Coup conducted

3 that enterprise?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And you've told me about your -- your

6 belief that by -- on other questions I've asked you

7 about the acceptance of bonuses and, I think, the

8 failure to take action, is it your position that he

9 participated?

10 A. Yes, he did participate.

11 Q. And have you told me the basis for your

12 belief --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. -- up to this point?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Are there any other facts or witnesses

17 that you have that leads you to believe that he

18 participated beyond what you've already told me?




20 Q. Now, he's charged in the Third Amended

21 Information with money laundering. And just so I'm

22 clear, I don't want to spend a lot of time on this,

23 but in terms of the money laundering count, is that

24 the use of the Sheriff's Office accounts and his

25 personal accounts?





112

1 A. The use of the Sheriff's Office account,

2 I don't understand what you're meaning.

3 Q. Are you saying that the money laundering

4 occurred through the use of the Sheriff's Office

5 accounts and his personal accounts that he and his

6 wife had?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Any other accounts?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Have you seen the Third Amended

11 Information?

12 A. No.

13 Q. I'm not sure we need to mark it.

14 A. Not unless it was shown to me this

15 morning.

16 MR. PETERSEN: It was.

17 Q. (By Mr. Murray) This is as it relates to

18 Michael Coup. If you could, turn to page two.

19 A. Yes, sir.



20 Q. And in there, that's a grand theft count

21 that says, "On or about October 5th of 2006, that

22 Michael Coup committed a theft valued at $5,000 but

23 less than $10,000." That October 5th incident; is

24 that a bonus?

25 A. Yes.





113

1 Q. Count three says, "On or about May 8th."

2 And this case, it is 300 or more, but less than 5,000

3 that he is alleged to have taken unlawfully; is that a

4 bonus?

5 MR. EDGAR: Let me object to the form of

6 the question. What do you mean is that a

7 bonus? What are you asking him? Maybe he

8 understands, but I sure don't.

9 Q. (By Mr. Murray) If you can, answer the

10 question, please do.

11 MR. EDGAR: Is that piece of paper, is

12 that paragraph bonus? I mean, what does that

13 mean?

14 MR. MURRAY: Mr. Edgar, you're going to

15 have your opportunity.

16 MR. EDGAR: You can't coach the witness.

17 MR. MURRAY: Now, if he can answer the

18 question --

19 MR. EDGAR: I'm not coaching the witness.



20 MR. MURRAY: If he can answer the

21 question, let him. If he can't, I'll rephrase

22 the question.

23 A. Well, again, the problem this morning and

24 this afternoon is I'd have to go back and look at my

25 records, because I told you I only remember the first





114

1 one and I didn't remember the details. And since I'm

2 not familiar with this document and I did not prepare

3 this document, I need to go back and look at my

4 paperwork.

5 Q. (By Mr. Murray) And is that the Excel

6 spreadsheet you previously told us about?

7 A. It's the bank reports. It's the

8 Sheriff's Office accounting records. It's a

9 combination of things. Mostly those documents versus

10 anything else.

11 Q. Okay. Count four says, "Between

12 September 30th of 2008 and February 27th, 2009." Once

13 again, a theft more than five but less than 10,000.

14 February 27th, I recognize as being the arrest date of

15 the Sheriff. Do you know what that -- what amount of

16 money that account applies to?

17 A. No, sir, I don't know.

18 Q. Based on your investigation, did you

19 reflect a bonus payment during that period of time?



20 A. Again, I only remember the first one, the

21 dates of the first one. I don't remember the dates of

22 the others. But reading this, it says, "Payroll

23 money -- funds."

24 Q. What I'm trying to ascertain without

25 being argumentative with you is if you're talking





115

1 about a bonus, then you've answered my question. If

2 you're talking about him writing checks to himself on

3 an SO account, then that's a different thing.

4 A. Yes, sir. Well, I can't answer the

5 question since I don't understand this count. I did

6 not write it, so I would have to go back.

7 Q. Does that date or time frame mean

8 anything at all in terms of the unlawful obtaining of

9 funds, payroll funds, by Michael Coup during that time

10 period?

11 A. No, sir, I don't understand it.

12 Q. You don't understand the count?

13 A. I don't understand the count. I'd have

14 to...

15 Q. Now, you previously told us that you had

16 made recommendations as to prosecution of certain

17 individuals at the Sheriff's Office. And I believe

18 you told me that it was pretty much a joint decision,

19 that you and Agent Nordstrom and Mr. Edgar as a



20 committee, for lack of a better word, or as an

21 investigative group decided who was going to be

22 prosecuted?

23 A. No, we didn't.

24 MR. EDGAR: I object. That misstates the

25 witness' previous answer.





116

1 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Okay, then tell me --

2 A. I did not. I gave recommendations.

3 Investigator Nordstrom made recommendations to the

4 prosecutor and the prosecutor made the ultimate

5 decision.

6 Q. Did you recommend anybody that he did not

7 file on?

8 MR. EDGAR: I'm going to object to that.

9 It's work product of the attorney assigned to

10 the case.


12 question.

13 MR. EDGAR: He can't answer the question.

14 MR. MURRAY: Unless you direct him not to

15 answer.

16 MR. EDGAR: Then certify it. It's work

17 product. You are asking him what decisions --

18 prosecutorial decisions that I made in his

19 presence.



20 MR. MURRAY: No.

21 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Did you recommend anyone

22 for prosecution that was not subsequently charged?

23 MR. EDGAR: Same objection. If his

24 discussions with me about who is to be

25 prosecuted and who's not --





117

1 MR. MURRAY: That's not what I'm asking.

2 MR. EDGAR: Why don't you certify the

3 question? Just certify the question for the

4 Court.

5 MR. MURRAY: Are you directing him not to

6 answer?

7 MR. EDGAR: No, I'm asking you to certify

8 the question.

9 MR. MURRAY: He's got to answer the

10 question, unless you tell him not to.

11 MR. EDGAR: Then we're over. Let's go.

12 We're finished. We'll suspend the deposition

13 until we get an answer from the Court.

14 MR. MURRAY: I'm going to move on.

15 MR. EDGAR: I'll suspend it.

16 MR. MURRAY: I'll certify the question.

17 (Whereupon, the following question by Mr.

18 Murray was certified:

19 Q. (By Mr. Murray) "Did you recommend



20 anyone for prosecution that was not

21 subsequently charged?")

22 MR. EDGAR: If you'll certify it, we'll

23 move on. If you don't want to certify it,

24 we're finished for the day.






118

1 MR. EDGAR: But you can't force a witness

2 to answer about work product without a

3 determination being made, Mr. Murray. I mean,

4 there's no coercion involved here today.

5 MR. MURRAY: Let the record reflect that

6 based on Mr. Edgar's conduct, that the witness

7 is not going to answer.

8 MR. EDGAR: Let the record reflect that I

9 object to that remark. It is based upon a

10 lawful objection as to the attorney trying to

11 elicit work product who refuses to either call

12 the judge or get it certified.

13 MR. MURRAY: We're certifying the

14 question.

15 MR. EDGAR: That's right. You are asking

16 him about discussions with the prosecutor about

17 what charges and who to charge and that's work

18 product. Go ahead.

19 Q. (By Mr. Murray) What facts -- I'm sorry.




21 Q. (By Mr. Murray) Just so it's clear what

22 I'm trying to get at, did you, yourself, recommend

23 anybody for prosecution that was not prosecuted?

24 MR. EDGAR: Objection. Same objection.

25 A. Yeah, I don't feel like I can answer that





119

1 question.

2 MR. MURRAY: Okay. Certify that

3 question, please.


5 Murray was certified:

6 Q. (By Mr. Murray) "Just so it's

7 clear what I'm trying to get at, did you,

8 yourself, recommend anybody for prosecution

9 that was not prosecuted?")

10 MR. MURRAY: Okay, I'm going to tender, I

11 think, to Mr. Klotz at this time.


13 BY MR. KLOTZ:

14 Q. Okay, I'm Chris Klotz. I represent Sandy

15 Norris. Mr. Crowder, you've reviewed all of the

16 documents that you've tendered to the defense in the

17 discovery yourself?

18 A. All of the documents?

19 Q. Yes, sir.



20 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. Can you estimate what percentage

22 of the documents that have been tendered in discovery

23 that you haven't had an opportunity to review?

24 A. Cursory look, 75 percent; detailed look,

25 less.





120

1 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review all

2 of the FBI 302's that have been provided to the

3 defense in the case?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review all

6 of the FDLE and, if you don't mind me combining, the

7 IRS reports, as well, that have been provided to the

8 defense?

9 A. IRS, yes; FDLE, no.

10 Q. I know I can't ask you what you haven't

11 reviewed. Do you remember generally what you have

12 reviewed of the FDLE reports?

13 A. I don't know that I've reviewed any. I

14 don't remember reviewing any.

15 Q. Okay. We talked earlier in the day about

16 your training, especially with regards to financial

17 crimes. Was part of the training that you underwent

18 to be able to recognize when a crime, in fact, hasn't

19 occurred with respect to financial crimes?



20 A. Somewhat. Be it known that there's a lot

21 of financial crimes that the training didn't touch

22 upon that I had no experience or training on.

23 Q. But part of your training was to be able

24 to recognize red flags that might be indicative of a

25 crime having occurred; correct, with regard to





121

1 finances?

2 A. In regard to fraud and some finances,

3 yes.

4 Q. Thank you. That's what I was asking.

5 When were you first made -- when were you first made

6 aware of the investigation of the Okaloosa County

7 Sheriff's Office?

8 A. When Sheriff Morris was arrested.

9 Q. You had no prior knowledge that the FBI

10 or IRS was conducting any type of investigation prior

11 to Sheriff Morris being arrested?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And subsequent to Sheriff Morris' arrest,

14 how long was it between that date and the time that

15 you had any type of official communication with FBI,

16 IRS or FDLE?

17 A. I think it was two to three weeks.

18 Q. So what you heard first, basically, was

19 on the news?



20 A. Yeah.

21 Q. And then two to three weeks later, you

22 became a part of an ongoing investigation?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At any time did you participate alongside

25 or with the FBI or the IRS in their investigation?





122

1 A. No, but the FBI did go with us to

2 interview somebody as an ongoing investigation and

3 return documents that they had.

4 Q. And how long ago was that?

5 A. Approximately 90 days.

6 Q. So on the front side of the

7 investigation, towards the beginning of the

8 investigation, when you were involved officially two

9 to three weeks after Sheriff Morris' arrest, you were

10 conducting an independent investigation, independent

11 of the FBI?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And the IRS?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How many conversations, if you're able to

16 estimate, would you say you've had with -- since your

17 involvement officially two to three weeks after

18 Sheriff Morris' arrest, if you can give me an estimate

19 of how many times you've had conversations with agents



20 in the FBI that were investigating this particular

21 course of conduct?

22 A. Twenty or more.

23 Q. Same question for the IRS.

24 A. Well, that was inclusive of the IRS.

25 Q. Would it be fair to say that most every





123

1 time that you talked with the FBI, there was usually

2 an IRS --

3 A. No.

4 Q. -- agent there?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So about 20 times with the FBI and about

7 20 times with the IRS?

8 A. No. Maybe five times with the IRS.

9 Q. Okay. What, if anything, did the

10 government investigators -- and when I say that, I'm

11 including FBI or IRS or anybody else with the United

12 States Government -- what did they say to you, if

13 anything, with regards to why they decided not to

14 prosecute Norris, Coup and Yacks in the federal

15 system?

16 A. That was a decision made by the U.S.

17 Attorney.

18 Q. And you talked to the investigators about

19 that? I mean --



20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- did you get information from the

22 investigators?

23 A. Right, it was the U.S. Attorney's

24 decision.

25 Q. Okay. And did the investigators with the





124

1 FBI, IRS or any other governmental agency express to

2 you that they had recommended that Norris, Coup and

3 Yacks be prosecuted in the federal system?

4 A. I believe they did one or more of those

5 people. I don't know. I know we talked about it, but

6 I don't know if they ever did.

7 Q. Do you remember with whom you discussed

8 that?

9 A. Probably the lead investigator.

10 Q. VanPelt?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And not to put words in your mouth, is

13 what you're essentially saying is that Mr. VanPelt

14 maybe thought that either and/or Norris and/or Coup

15 and/or Yacks should have been prosecuted in the

16 federal system?

17 A. Let me go back. He felt like it could be

18 expanded, but he did not give those -- those names.

19 Q. Is there anything -- so at this point, as



20 of today, do you feel as if you have seen most of the

21 documents that have been created by the FBI and the

22 IRS and their investigation of Charlie Morris and

23 Terry Adams?

24 A. I've seen the 302's and the IRS reports.

25 If they did any analysis, I have not seen that. I





125

1 only know what they've shown me. I don't know of

2 anything else.

3 Q. Have you shared all of your information

4 with them that you've gained through your

5 investigation?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you believe that you might have

8 information then that the FBI and the IRS is not

9 privileged to? When I say, "not privileged," I mean

10 simply didn't find out on their own.

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Are you aware of whether or not you have

13 been able to give the State Attorney's Office any

14 information that the United States Government did not

15 have to consider in making its decision whether to

16 prosecute Morris and/or Coup and/or Yacks?

17 A. No, I don't know if we did or not. Our

18 reports, again, was (sic) based on the 302's and the

19 IRS reports and the Sheriff's Office reports and they



20 had all of that.

21 Q. So it's fair to say that you haven't

22 necessarily uncovered something that, in your

23 investigation for the State Attorney's Office, that

24 the U.S. Government hasn't uncovered in their

25 investigation of Adams and Morris?





126

1 A. Offhand, I can't think of anything.

2 Q. Have you met with a forensic accountant

3 regarding either your investigation or any

4 involvement, if any, that you had with the United

5 States Government's investigation?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And I believe you said at the beginning

8 of the questioning that Mr. -- that Sheriff Morris had

9 been interviewed five times; is that what you said?

10 A. From what I can remember.

11 Q. Do you remember how many of the five

12 times you were present?

13 A. Each time.

14 Q. And in the first instance, do you recall

15 who else was present for the first instance and where

16 you were when that happened?

17 A. I believe it was in the State Attorney's

18 Office and let me say in Shalimar. I'm not sure if it

19 was at the State Attorney's Office, but it was



20 Nordstrom, myself and Mr. Edgar and his attorney.

21 Q. No federal agents?

22 A. I can't remember if there was or not.

23 Q. Was it before or after his case had

24 resolved in federal court; do you recall?

25 A. It was on or about that time.





127

1 Q. And do you recall where the second time

2 was?

3 A. And the second time was in jail, Escambia

4 County jail.

5 Q. And do you recall who was present?

6 A. Myself and Mr. Edgar and also his

7 attorney.

8 Q. And I believe you said the third, fourth

9 and fifth time or immediately prior or during trial of

10 Ms. Thornton?

11 A. It was during trial.

12 Q. All three were during the trial?

13 A. It was myself and his attorney.

14 Q. Same question for Terry Adams; how many

15 times have you interviewed her?

16 A. I believe only one time.

17 Q. And where were you?

18 A. Shalimar State Attorney's Office.

19 Q. And who was present with you?



20 A. That would have been Nordstrom, Edgar,

21 Crowder and her attorney and her friend.

22 Q. And you don't remember the friend's name?

23 A. No.

24 Q. But that friend's name is in your notes?

25 A. Either that or her attorney will have it.





128

1 Q. Okay. As far as Ms. Norris is concerned,

2 is your investigation complete into her involvement?

3 A. I can't say that.

4 Q. Is your pending investigation involving

5 any other conduct of Ms. Norris of what you are aware?

6 A. There are pending investigations.

7 Q. In your opinion, in your discussions,

8 either your personal discussions with Ms. Adams or

9 what you have read of other interviews that she may

10 have given, are you aware of whether or not any time

11 she has lied during any of her statements about any

12 material act that you are aware of?

13 A. I can't remember anything at this time.

14 Q. The same question for Sheriff Morris,

15 either the interviews that you conducted of him or the

16 interviews that you have seen conducted by other

17 people, either by recording or transcript, have you

18 found any instance that sticks out as being a lie

19 about a material fact by Mr. Morris?



20 A. Concerning Ms. Norris?

21 Q. I'm sorry, with respect to Ms. Norris

22 first and then I'll ask you --

23 A. Not pertaining to Ms. Norris.

24 Q. With regard to any fact, have you found

25 anything that Sheriff Morris has -- has been





129

1 untruthful about in your personal experience in

2 interviewing him or looking at other interviews that

3 may have been conducted with him?

4 A. The fact that he had had sex with Sabra

5 Thornton.

6 Q. And you believe he was lying about that?

7 A. He went back both ways; said yes and

8 no --

9 Q. Is there --

10 A. -- three times.

11 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.

12 A. No.

13 Q. Is there anything, any other material

14 issue --

15 A. No.

16 Q. -- that you can recall that he might have

17 lied about, to your knowledge?

18 A. Not to my knowledge or that I can prove.

19 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, are there any



20 302's that have not been provided to the defense that

21 you have reviewed?

22 A. I believe we've received one a week ago

23 and that, I think, pertained to return of documents by

24 the FBI.

25 Q. Do you intend to provide that to us?





130

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. To your knowledge and through

3 whatever means you've learned through investigation or

4 person or from reading through any of the reports, how

5 many instances are you aware of that Sandy Norris gave

6 money or cash back to anybody in administration?

7 A. I believe four times.

8 Q. And can you tell me from -- from where

9 that information came, if you are able?

10 A. The audit report.

11 Q. Okay. Do you recall any dates or

12 amounts?

13 A. No.

14 Q. If I was to show you the audit report,

15 would it help you remember? I've got the whole thing,

16 if you want to look at it. And I will just show you

17 this one page. If you want to look at the whole

18 thing, I've got it and you can look at it. Can you

19 tell me if you've ever seen that page before?



20 A. Yes, I have.

21 Q. And is that the audit report that was

22 done by, it looks like, Carr, Riggs and Ingram?

23 A. I'm not sure which one it came from. I

24 do recognize it and I do see that there's only one.

25 Q. Let me give you the whole document.





131

1 A. Uh-huh, okay.

2 Q. Does this appear to be the audit report

3 from Carr, Riggs and Ingram?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And are you familiar with this report?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Were you able to find anything with

8 regard to these distributions on page 26 of the report

9 that was inaccurate or not representative as regards

10 to Ms. Norris?

11 A. Regarding Ms. Norris, nothing.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. No inaccuracies.

14 Q. So you had previously said that there

15 were four?

16 A. Right.

17 Q. But what does the report actually

18 indicate?

19 A. One.



20 Q. And what date was that and what was the

21 amount?

22 A. January 16, 2009.

23 Q. And for what amount?

24 A. $4,000.

25 Q. And so that is the amount of cash that





132

1 was reported that she had given back --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. -- to administration either through

4 Charlie Morris or through Terry Adams?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you have any other evidence to show

7 there was any other incidence she gave cash back to

8 Adams or Morris or anybody else in the administration?

9 A. I don't believe so, but I would have to

10 go back and look at my information, but I believe

11 that's accurate.

12 Q. Okay. And as far as if I could just ask

13 you real quick, may I go back to this real quick, what

14 was the last date that any cash-backs are reflected on

15 page 26 of the Carr, Riggs, Ingram report? When was

16 the last date that the cash appeared to be paid back

17 to Charlie Morris?

18 A. January 16, 2009.

19 Q. And he was, in fact -- wasn't he arrested



20 in February of 2009?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. Can I see that stuff back, unless

23 you need to look at it? You're always welcome to look

24 at it, if you want to. Do you have any evidence which

25 might suggest when Sandy Norris first had any





133

1 knowledge of the cash-back scheme?

2 A. I don't have that information. I can't

3 remember it.

4 Q. Have you interviewed Sandy Norris

5 yourself?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And who was present?

8 A. Nordstrom.

9 Q. Anybody else?

10 A. I don't remember if anyone else was.

11 Q. Do you recall when it was that you

12 interviewed her? Was it before or after the Sheriff

13 got arrested?

14 A. It would be after. We did not conduct

15 the investigation until after.

16 Q. And if you need to look at that sheet,

17 that's fine.

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you see the date?



20 A. We have one date -- one interview

21 recorded here of April 23rd of 2009.

22 Q. Was she cooperative during that

23 interview, to the best of your recollection?

24 A. We had several other interviews. I don't

25 remember if she was cooperative in this one or not.





134

1 Q. Do you remember her sticking out as being

2 uncooperative at any time that you spoke with her?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And do you recall maybe from reading

5 302's that she also gave statements to the FBI and the

6 IRS?

7 A. Yes, she did.

8 Q. And she also gave statements to Carr,

9 Riggs, Ingram's representatives and the other

10 auditor's representatives?

11 A. I don't know that to be the case other

12 than the fact that there is a list of kickbacks. I

13 don't know of any other information she provided.

14 Q. In the course of your investigation or

15 anybody else's investigation that you've had an

16 opportunity to take a look at, have you found anything

17 about which Sandy Norris has been untruthful?

18 A. I can't say one way or another on that.

19 I would have to review -- review the records.



20 Q. Do you have -- do you have any evidence

21 that Sandy Norris -- let me just say this: It appears

22 in the allegations that Sandy conspired with Morris

23 and Adams as the allegation; correct?

24 A. I believe that is the -- it's in the

25 Amended Information. I had no control or that's not





135

1 my document or charging.

2 Q. That's not what I'm getting at. What I

3 wanted to see is if you had any information that

4 Norris may have also in some way cooperated or

5 conspired with Yacks.

6 A. Oh, with Yacks?

7 Q. Uh-huh.

8 A. No, I don't have any knowledge of that.

9 Q. How about with Coup, same question with

10 regard to Coup and Sandy Norris; any evidence that you

11 have that indicated that Coup --

12 A. No.

13 Q. -- and Sandy Norris conspired in any way?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Is it my understanding -- is my

16 understanding correct that the new -- or the players,

17 for lack of a better word, in Sandy Norris' conspiracy

18 would be Norris, Morris and Adams that actually had

19 the interaction among each other; is that your



20 understanding of the charge?

21 A. Are you talking about the charge in the

22 Information or the charges in my Probable Cause

23 Affidavit?

24 Q. Well, let's talk about in the

25 Information.





136

1 A. Well, again the Information is not my

2 product. The Information is a result of the

3 information that we've collected and given to the

4 prosecutor. And then he goes forward from there, so I

5 don't have any control over that.

6 Q. I can ask it in a different way. Do you

7 have any evidence that Sandy Norris conspired with

8 anybody else in this course of conduct except for

9 Charlie Morris and Teresa Adams?

10 A. Well, she participated in this scheme and

11 everyone that participated in it.

12 Q. Did she have communications about the

13 scheme with anybody else besides Morris and Adams?

14 A. I don't have any knowledge of that.

15 Q. Do you have any evidence that Sandy

16 Norris ever had discussions with Charlie Morris about

17 the cash-back scheme?

18 A. At this time, I don't believe so.

19 Q. The same question for Adams, do you have



20 any evidence that Sandy Norris communicated directly

21 with Adams about the cash-back scheme?

22 A. Let me backtrack. When you say,

23 "cash-back scheme," let me include the bonus program

24 which she was fully involved in that.

25 Q. So let me back up and say the bonus





137

1 program with regards to Charlie Morris, do you have

2 any evidence that Sandy Norris actually had

3 discussions with Charlie Morris about either the

4 cash-back or the bonus scheme?

5 A. I believe the bonus program she did.

6 Q. Okay. Do you remember what those

7 communications were?


9 Q. And do you remember in what document or

10 recording that is contained?

11 A. I believe it might have came from her

12 interview.

13 THE WITNESS: Can we take a break and get

14 a drink?

15 MR. KLOTZ: Absolutely.


17 2:39 p.m., after which the deposition continued

18 at 2:42 p.m.)

19 MR. KLOTZ: Back on the record.



20 Q. (By Mr. Klotz) I'm sorry, I think my

21 last question was the evidence that Sandy Norris

22 actually had conversations with Charlie Morris

23 regarding either the cash-back or the bonus scheme,

24 you believe that was in her interviews?

25 A. I believe it was.





138

1 Q. And the same question with regard to

2 Adams, what evidence do you have that Sandy Norris

3 actually communicated or spoke with Adams regarding

4 the cash-back or bonus scheme?

5 A. Again, Norris and, I believe, Adams.

6 Q. Has Adams indicated in her discussions

7 with anybody that you're aware of that Norris had

8 knowledge of the cash-back scheme? I'll get to the

9 bonus scheme, but the cash-back scheme?

10 A. Well, she did in that she talked about

11 Norris gave back money herself.

12 Q. Correct. And that would be -- is that

13 the instance on page 26 of the --

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. -- Carr, Riggs, Ingram report?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Any other instances that Teresa Adams has

18 indicated --

19 A. I don't know.



20 Q. -- that Sandy Norris gave money back to

21 anybody in the administration?

22 A. I don't remember, if she did.

23 Q. Okay. Adams has admitted that she's had

24 conversations with Charlie Morris regarding the

25 cash-back and the bonus scheme; correct?





139

1 A. Say that again.

2 Q. Adams has admitted that she actually had

3 conversations about the cash-back and the bonus

4 schemes; correct?

5 A. With?

6 Q. Adams and Morris. I'm sorry, Charlie

7 Morris?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I will try to use first names, since I

10 know the names are close. Has Charlie Morris

11 maintained that he and -- let me back up. In the

12 interviews that you've participated in or are aware

13 of, of Charlie Morris, has he ever said that somebody

14 besides Adams was involved in the conspiracy?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Has Adams ever said in any interviews

17 that you've had with her or are aware of that anybody

18 besides Adams and Charlie Morris were involved in the

19 conspiracy?



20 A. I'm sorry, say that again.

21 Q. Basically, the same question as before

22 with regards to Adams. Has Adams ever said to you or

23 in any statement that you're aware of that she and

24 Charlie Morris weren't the only two people that were

25 privy to the cash-back or bonus scheme?





140

1 A. I don't -- I can't remember if she did or

2 not.

3 Q. Is the evidence that you've collected

4 through the course of your investigation as regards to

5 Sandra Norris' criminal activities limited to her

6 participation in the bonus scheme, the cash-back

7 scheme and then an allegation involving 135 hours of

8 overtime?

9 A. At this time.

10 Q. I know that Sabra Thornton -- and Jim

11 asked you this question earlier -- was accused -- I

12 think you were asked if -- let me ask it this way:

13 Did Sandy have any knowledge of the $8,000 leave (sic)

14 pay-off for Sabra Thornton?

15 A. Lease pay-off are you talking about?

16 Q. Lease pay-off, thank you.

17 A. I'm sure she did. In the position that

18 she was in, she had to authorize those transactions.

19 Q. Do you have any evidence of that besides



20 just that you're sure that she did?

21 A. I would have to go back and look, but I

22 would think that it would be on the financial reports.

23 Q. Do you have any evidence that would

24 indicate that she knew that that particular payment

25 might be a violation of law?





141

1 A. I don't know what she was thinking.

2 Q. I'm not asking that, though. I'm wanting

3 to know if you have any evidence that would show that

4 she had any knowledge that that lease pay-off might

5 have been contrary to law?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you --

8 A. Other than the fact that she was --

9 approached Norris for a pay increase.

10 Q. Was that related in any way that you are

11 aware of to the 8,000-dollar lease pay-off for Sabra

12 Thornton?

13 A. I'm not sure if it was part of that. I

14 would have to go look at the dates and when things

15 occurred.

16 Q. Is Sandy -- did you find during the

17 course of your investigation that Sandy Norris had

18 ever improperly used any Okaloosa County Sheriff's

19 Office equipment?



20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you ever find then through the course

22 of your investigation that Sandy Norris had

23 participated in the improper restoration of leave time

24 for anybody?

25 A. I don't know if she was involved. There





142

1 was at least one incident to that and I'm not sure she

2 was involved.

3 Q. Okay. Have you gone back and looked --

4 are you aware of whether or not there are any time

5 sheets where Sandy Norris might have kept track of the

6 time that she worked, specifically hours that she

7 worked, per week or per month?

8 A. There were time records. I can't

9 remember if it was a time sheet or what.

10 Q. Has Charlie Morris or Adams ever told you

11 that Sandy Norris' bonuses were not based on merit?

12 A. I can't remember.

13 Q. What evidence do you have, if any, that

14 Sandy Norris' bonuses weren't based on merit?

15 A. Receiving bonuses on or about the time of

16 her travels to Las Vegas.

17 Q. Besides receiving the bonuses

18 contemporaneously with travel plans, is there any

19 other evidence that you can think of that her bonuses



20 were not based on merit?

21 A. Kickbacks, related to the kickback.

22 Q. And when you say, "related to the

23 kickback," that would be the one kickback that was

24 reported in the Carr, Riggs, Ingram report --

25 A. Yes.





143

1 Q. -- on January 16th?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And there is no evidence that she ever

4 gave any other kickback, was there, besides the

5 January 16th report?


7 Q. You would agree with me that there's no

8 evidence listed in either of the forensic accounting

9 reports that there was a kickback besides

10 January 16th, 2009 --

11 A. Well --

12 Q. -- by Sandy Norris?

13 A. -- I can't -- I can't say that there's

14 not evidence in those reports. I don't know of any at

15 this time.

16 Q. Have you read the reports?

17 A. I've read the reports, but the reports

18 give bonuses and right now I can only identify one.

19 Q. For Sandy Norris?



20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How many trips are you aware of where

22 Sandy Norris went to Las Vegas?

23 A. I don't remember the number.

24 Q. Can you tell if it was more or less than

25 five?





144

1 A. I don't remember.

2 Q. Did you do any research on how Sandy

3 Norris paid for her travel and then paid for her

4 expenses once she was in Las Vegas?

5 A. Travel, I did. Paying for expenses, I

6 don't believe so.

7 Q. And how did she pay for her travel to Las

8 Vegas; was that with a personal credit card?

9 A. I do not remember that. Talking to a lot

10 of people going to Las Vegas, I just don't remember.

11 Q. Are you aware of any evidence that she

12 didn't use her personal credit card or funds that she

13 possessed personally to pay for her trips to Las

14 Vegas?

15 A. I believe there was at least one occasion

16 where she -- her tickets were paid for by Yacks.

17 Q. And do you recall if he used his personal

18 funds or whether he used the Sheriff's credit card or

19 the Sheriff's check?



20 A. A personal credit card.

21 Q. Yacks used a personal credit card to pay

22 for Sandy --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- to go to one occasion?

25 A. At least one.





145

1 Q. Were you able to locate, during the

2 course of your investigation, any repayment by Sandy

3 Norris back to Yacks for those travel arrangements?

4 A. I can't remember if there was one or not.

5 Q. In any instances with regards to either

6 Yacks, Coup, Norris, Morris or Adams, was a Sheriff's

7 credit card ever used to pay for travel arrangements

8 to Las Vegas?

9 A. On everybody but the Sheriff, I don't

10 think so, but the Sheriff may have.

11 Q. You mentioned a spreadsheet earlier. I

12 think it was an Excel spreadsheet that you had worked

13 on that you had provided to Mr. Edgar. Did that

14 contain information that related to Sandy Norris as

15 well as the other co-defendants?

16 A. That's really work product. I really

17 shouldn't explain to you what's in my work product.

18 Q. Did that spreadsheet have any information

19 that pertained to Sandy Norris? I'm not asking you



20 what the information was. I'm asking if it had

21 information that pertained to her or not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is there any evidence that you're aware

24 of that Sandy Norris authorized any of her own bonuses

25 without the approval or direction of Charlie Morris or





146

1 Teresa Adams?

2 A. No.

3 Q. So it's your impression that any time she

4 got a bonus, those were bonuses directed by Morris

5 and/or Adams?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. With regard to the discussion that was

8 had earlier about improper use of inmates for Charlie

9 Morris, was there any indication that Sandy Norris had

10 any knowledge or participation in that particular

11 activity?

12 A. I believe so.

13 Q. And what do you believe that knowledge to

14 be?

15 A. I believe that was in her report, in her

16 interview.

17 Q. Did she have prior knowledge of it or did

18 she find out after the fact?

19 A. I believe she had prior knowledge or



20 during -- during the time.

21 Q. Did she -- to your knowledge and through

22 your investigation, did she derive any personal

23 benefit from the use of those inmates in that fashion?

24 A. No.

25 Q. All of that -- all of the benefit derived





147

1 from the improper use of inmates has been throughout

2 the course of this overall misconduct was by the

3 Sheriff?

4 A. Are you saying the Sheriff received --

5 Q. Who was the beneficiary of the work?

6 A. Person's other than Sandy Norris.

7 Q. Okay, that's all I'm getting at. I think

8 that Sandy Norris had an assigned vehicle at some

9 point during her tenure with the Sheriff. Have you

10 found anything in your course -- in the course of your

11 investigation that indicates that she improperly used

12 that vehicle at any time?

13 A. No.

14 Q. The same question with any gas card that

15 she may have had associated with that vehicle?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Besides the allegation that she

18 improperly took or logged 135.9 overtime hours, is

19 there anything that you have discovered through the



20 course of your investigation that indicates that she

21 stole any other property of the Okaloosa County

22 Sheriff's Department?


24 MR. EDGAR: I would object to the form of

25 the last question. I'm not sure I heard it





148

1 correctly, but I thought it was -- never mind.

2 I just object to the form. It's misleading.

3 Q. (By Mr. Klotz) The instance in the Carr,

4 Riggs, Ingram report on page 26, which indicates the

5 4,000-dollar cash-back on January 16th of 2009 by

6 Sandy Norris, what is your -- who do you understand

7 that money went to?

8 A. Either to Sheriff Morris or Teresa Adams.

9 Q. And were you able to chase down a paper

10 trail as to whether or not Adams or Charlie Morris

11 received $4,000 on or near January 16th of 2009?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And what format did that information

14 take? Was it a bank statement or an admission?

15 A. A spreadsheet done by the FBI.

16 Q. Can you tell me -- I think I know which

17 one you're talking about, but can you describe to me,

18 to your recollection, what was on the spreadsheet?

19 A. It showed the bonuses and then it showed



20 the monies going -- being split out to Sheriff Morris,

21 Adams, Coup.

22 Q. So that document actually provides some

23 support for the assertion that she gave $4,000 back to

24 Adams or Charlie Morris on the 16th of January of

25 2009?





149

1 A. On or about that day, I believe so, yes.

2 Q. And through the course of your

3 investigation, what evidence do you have that

4 illustrates what the -- what knowledge Sandy Norris

5 had of what the $4,000 was being given back for? That

6 wasn't a great question. If you don't understand it,

7 I'll ask it again.

8 A. I don't have any information whether she

9 knew where the 4,000 was going for.

10 Q. You're aware that Sandy Norris worked

11 from her home; correct?

12 A. When?

13 Q. At any time during the -- from her

14 employment until her time of termination, you're aware

15 that she actually did some work from her home; are you

16 not?

17 A. I believe she was somewhat on call and

18 she had a computer line access. I don't know to what

19 extent she worked at home.



20 Q. Okay.

21 A. I --

22 Q. It's been -- go ahead, I didn't mean to

23 cut you off.

24 A. Go ahead.

25 Q. It's been reported that she worked from





150

1 home; is that correct?

2 A. She reported that.

3 Q. And it's also been reported that Kelly

4 Cashman worked from home as well; correct?

5 A. She also reported -- told us that.

6 Q. If I remember correctly, the forensic

7 accounting documents evidenced that both Ms. Cashman

8 and Ms. Norris were provided a computer line through

9 Cox Cable at their home --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- by the Sheriff's Department?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. That was an expense paid by the Sheriff's

14 Department?

15 A. Uh-huh.

16 Q. Is there anything during the course of

17 your investigation that indicates that there was any

18 criminal conduct with respect to the providing of a

19 internet line or cable line through Cox Communications



20 either to Ms. Cashman or to Ms. Norris?


22 Q. And do you have any evidence that either

23 Ms. Sandy Norris or Kelly Cashman used that resource

24 of the Cox Communication Cable line for anything other

25 than business purposes?





151

1 A. No.

2 Q. You sat through Sandy -- or you sat

3 through Sabra Thornton's trial; correct, through most

4 of it?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You did not? I'll ask a general question

7 and if it's too general, just let me know. But are

8 there any of the allegations that were made against

9 Sabra Thornton in her case in which Sandy Norris was a

10 participant?

11 A. Are you talking about receiving the

12 bonus?

13 Q. Well, I know that covers a lot of ground.

14 A. Yeah.

15 Q. I talked about the vehicle use and the

16 lease pay-off. I'm trying to think of some of the

17 other things. Was there anything that Sandy Norris

18 had any knowledge that Sheriff Morris was going to be

19 gathering money to be able to pay off Sandy Norris'



20 credit card?

21 A. I don't know about that one.

22 Q. So you're not able to recall whether or

23 not there's any evidence that might link Sandy Norris

24 to Sabra Thornton with regard to that particular

25 issue?





152

1 A. Right.

2 Q. With regards to any other impropriety

3 that was alleged against Ms. Thornton outside of the

4 bonus scheme, is there any connection between Sabra

5 Thornton's cases and Sandy Norris?

6 A. Nothing direct.

7 Q. Did Sandy Norris have signatory authority

8 on any of the Sheriff's accounts?

9 A. I don't know. All of that was done

10 electronically, so I don't know if that has anything

11 to do with distribution of funds.

12 Q. Is there any -- do you have any evidence

13 that Sandy Norris actually initiated the actual

14 transfers from her computer or desktop?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Isn't it, in fact, true that the person

17 with the authority to initiate those types of

18 transfers actually was Teresa Adams?

19 A. I believe it was Cashman.



20 Q. Is there any other evidence -- let me

21 back up. Besides the bonus scheme and the overtime,

22 is there any other evidence to suggest that Sandy

23 Norris participated in grand theft of any other item

24 that was the property of the Okaloosa County Sheriff's

25 Department?





153

1 A. No.

2 Q. Were there any undercover recordings of

3 Sandy Norris that you're aware of making any

4 statements to anybody?

5 A. None that I did.

6 Q. Were there some that somebody else did?


8 Q. What evidence is there that Sandy Norris

9 talked with Coup and/or Yacks about the cash-back

10 scheme or the bonus scheme?

11 A. What is the evidence that she talked to

12 Coup or Yacks?

13 Q. And/or Yacks, uh-huh. I'm just wrapping

14 them up into the same question, if that's okay.

15 A. I can't think of any right now.

16 Q. Were there any recordings of any of the

17 co-defendants or anybody that's been charged: Morris,

18 Adams, Sandy Norris, Coup, Yacks or any other

19 recordings of anybody else that was an employee of the



20 Okaloosa County Sheriff's Department that were done

21 while they were in Las Vegas?

22 A. Not by this agency.

23 Q. Do you have knowledge of another agency

24 that has made those types of recordings?

25 A. I don't believe there was any, but that's





154

1 in the FBI reports -- FBI/IRS reports.

2 Q. Do you recall seeing in the FBI reports

3 that you've read --

4 A. I don't remember.

5 Q. Do you have any evidence that you are

6 aware of through the course of your investigation or

7 anybody else's that the furtherance of the overall

8 conspiracy or cash-back scheme or bonus scheme was

9 discussed among the co-conspirators while they were in

10 Las Vegas?

11 A. Again, that's FBI reports and IRS. I'm

12 getting out of my area what I have control over.

13 Q. So you don't recall any?

14 A. No. What I'm saying is that's in the FBI

15 reports. You need to look at the FBI reports instead

16 of me reporting what they did.

17 Q. I'm just asking what you remember.

18 A. Okay.

19 Q. So you don't remember?



20 A. I don't remember, but you need to check

21 the FBI reports.

22 Q. I will. What is your understanding of

23 the distinction between Cashman's duties and Sandra

24 Norris' duties?

25 A. Sandra Norris was the supervisor of





155

1 Cashman. Cashman did pay allowances and Sandra Norris

2 directed and supervised those in some respects on the

3 forms that she had supervisory or approval authority.

4 They had other duties, but I'm not familiar with

5 those.

6 Q. In looking at page 26 of the forensic

7 accountant's report, the Carr, Riggs, Ingram report

8 from March of 2009, I see that it's indicated on

9 January the 16th of 2009 that Kelly Cashman also

10 reported giving cash back to someone in the amount of

11 $4,000; is that consistent with your investigation?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did she tell you that she did that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did she tell you who she gave the money

16 to?

17 A. Yes, but I don't remember who she did.

18 It should be in the interview tape.

19 Q. Was it either Adams or Morris?



20 A. Yes.

21 Q. It wasn't to Sandy Norris; was it?

22 A. I don't think Sandy collected. I think

23 Sandy told her about it, but did not collect it.

24 Q. To your knowledge, did Sandy Norris

25 collect any of the cash coming back to Adams or





156

1 Charlie Morris?

2 A. No.

3 Q. As a matter of fact, the evidence would

4 show that Adams and/or Morris were the only two people

5 who actually received the actual cash back; correct?

6 A. Evidence that I have by testimony.

7 Q. In your training that you've had with

8 regard to the financial crimes, what distinguished

9 Kelly Cashman's conduct from Sandy Norris' conduct on

10 January 16th of 2009, and giving cash back to either

11 Adams or Charlie Morris?

12 A. That was not covered in the training.

13 Q. Did you recommend that Kelly Cashman be

14 prosecuted?

15 A. Again, that was a discussion with the

16 prosecutor and that would be considered privileged

17 information.

18 Q. Did you recommend that Kelly Cashman be

19 prosecuted?



20 A. Again, as I said, that's communications

21 that I had with the prosecutor. I'm not going to --

22 MR. EDGAR: I don't have any problem if

23 you want to ask him if he applied for a

24 warrant.

25 Q. (By Mr. Klotz) And the only reason that





157

1 I asked is just because you had volunteered earlier

2 that you had made recommendations --

3 A. Uh-huh.

4 Q. -- with persons to be prosecuted. And I

5 didn't ask you about that. I'm not asking you what

6 the prosecutor decided to do or not to do.

7 A. Well, you know what the prosecutor

8 decided to do.

9 Q. Right. And so my question to you is:

10 Did you recommend that she be prosecuted as well?

11 MR. EDGAR: You can certify the question.

12 MR. KLOTZ: Okay.

13 (Whereupon, the following question asked

14 by Mr. Klotz was certified:

15 Q. "Right. And so my question to you

16 is: Did you recommend that she be prosecuted

17 as well?")

18 Q. (By Mr. Klotz) Based on your law

19 enforcement training, is there any distinction between



20 the actions of Kelly Cashman on January 16th of 2009

21 and giving cash back of $4,000 and Sandy Norris on

22 January 16th of 2009 giving back $4,000?

23 A. Based on the training?

24 Q. Yes, sir.

25 A. Somewhat.





158

1 Q. And what is that?

2 A. Norris was a supervisor, approval.

3 Q. Are you familiar with Michelle Nicholson?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What was her position with the OCSO?

6 A. Public affairs officer.

7 Q. And besides the $1,000 that's listed on

8 January 16th of 2009, are you aware of any other

9 cash-back instances that she participated in?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Is there any distinction between the

12 actions and based on your experience and training, is

13 there any distinction in the conduct of Kelly Cashman

14 giving back $4,000 on January 16th and Michelle

15 Nicholson giving back the $1,000 on January 16th?

16 A. Please restate that question.

17 Q. Sure. Based upon your law enforcement

18 training and experience, is there any distinction

19 between the actions of Kelly Cashman giving $4,000



20 back on January 16th of 2009 and Michelle Nicholson

21 giving $1,000 back on January 16th of 2009?

22 A. I'd have to think about that. I'm not

23 prepared to -- I need to think about that for quite a

24 while.

25 Q. You can't -- are you unable presently to





159

1 provide any distinction between those two individuals'

2 conduct on that date?

3 A. What I said is I would have to think

4 about it and I have to look at -- look at all of the

5 aspects and look at the interviews and determine that

6 from what the information that I have.

7 Q. Yeah, during the break you had given us a

8 list of people that there were recorded conversations

9 with and I don't see Michelle Nicholson on that list.

10 Do you recall did you speak with Michelle Nicholson

11 personally?

12 A. Yes, we did.

13 Q. Did you record that conversation?

14 A. Evidently not.

15 Q. Do you recall who was present during that

16 investigation?

17 A. Nordstrom.

18 Q. Nordstrom. You were talking with

19 Mr. Murray earlier about the culture of silence among



20 everybody regarding bonuses at the Okaloosa County

21 Sheriff's Office.

22 A. No, I did not. I don't believe I talked

23 about the culture of silence.

24 Q. You didn't use the word culture of

25 silence. I'm not trying to be tricky.





160

1 A. No, I didn't.

2 Q. But just for lack of a better word trying

3 to paraphrase, the fact that people did not discuss

4 their bonuses is what I'm referring to.

5 A. Okay.

6 Q. And I'm not trying to be tricky about

7 your words, I'm trying to paraphrase. The fact that

8 that was something that you were able -- the fact that

9 people did not discuss their bonuses with one another

10 was something that you had been able to document

11 during the course of your investigation; isn't that

12 accurate?

13 A. Uh-huh.

14 Q. Yes?

15 A. Yes. I'm sorry.

16 Q. And, in fact, isn't it true that some of

17 the first instances of anybody actually talking about

18 this, about the bonus scheme, was when Schniepp and

19 Donaldson and Larry Ashley talked about it together;



20 is that consistent with your investigation?

21 A. It began with George Wilson talking to

22 Larry Ashley about it.

23 Q. Okay. And do you recall what it -- what

24 that discussion involved between Mr. Wilson and

25 Mr. Ashley?





161

1 A. Basically, Mr. Wilson approached Major

2 Ashley and said he had been involved in this and he

3 was concerned.

4 Q. And is that George Wilson?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. And I don't think Mr. -- what position

7 was George Wilson in?

8 A. Fleet Manager.

9 Q. Do you know what his rank was?

10 A. He had no rank. I don't think he has a

11 rank. He's a civilian.

12 Q. Right. And do you know what position

13 Nicole Wagner held?

14 A. I don't remember. She has since changed

15 positions and I cannot remember the position she was

16 in.

17 Q. It's true that, according to the forensic

18 accounting report on March 23rd from Carr, Riggs and

19 Ingram, that George Wilson was reported to have given



20 kickbacks four times between August of 2008 and

21 January of 2009 in the amounts of 3,000, 7,000, 4,000

22 and 12,000 dollars; correct?

23 A. That's what the audit says.

24 Q. Is that information consistent with what

25 you found in your investigation?





162

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Have you recommended that Mr. Wilson be

3 charged?

4 A. Again, I'm not giving that information.

5 That's privileged information.

6 MR. KLOTZ: Russ, are you going to

7 certify the question?

8 MR. EDGAR: Yes.


10 Klotz was certified:

11 Q. "Have you recommended that Mr.

12 Wilson be charged?")

13 Q. (By Mr. Edgar) Was Mr. Wilson

14 investigated for any other misconduct unrelated to the

15 bonus scheme or the cash-back scheme?


17 Q. Did you personally talk with Mr. Wilson?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was Nordstrom present?



20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was anybody else present?

22 A. I don't remember on that one. Perhaps

23 Mr. Edgar, I don't know. There were multiple

24 discussions, sometimes one-minute phone calls. It was

25 a whole series of -- because he's also in position





163

1 working there, so I had to call him and ask him about

2 certain things.

3 Q. With regards to Mr. Wilson?

4 A. Thornton, other employees.

5 Q. How many times did you estimate that you

6 talked to George Wilson?

7 A. Ten to 20.

8 Q. And were any of those --

9 A. I take that back. Probably ten to 15.

10 Q. And were any of those conversations

11 recorded?

12 A. I don't believe so.

13 Q. What would distinguish his conduct in

14 giving four kickbacks over a five-month period from

15 Kelly Cashman, who gave one kickback over 4,000 --

16 over just a one-time period being that neither one of

17 them appeared to be in a supervisory capacity; is that

18 the distinguishing factor that kept Mr. Wilson from

19 being charged?



20 A. Again, I had no decision in who was

21 charged.

22 Q. To your knowledge from your

23 investigation, was Mr. Wilson, George Wilson, in any

24 type of supervisory capacity?

25 A. Was he a supervisor?





164

1 Q. Yes, sir.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. If I can just ask you to take a look at

4 this, again, page 26 of the Carr, Riggs, Ingram report

5 from March of 2009. And of this list of people that

6 are on here, could you just read out the ones that

7 your investigation revealed to you were in a

8 supervisory position?

9 A. Coup, Donaldson, Hull, Norris, Schniepp,

10 Wilson, Adams, Holcombe, Thornton. The ones I have a

11 question about is Michelle Nicholson and David Yacks.

12 I believe they maybe had some. I can't remember.

13 Q. Fair enough. And I'm sorry if you told

14 me this already, how many interviews with Sandy Norris

15 did you have, if you recall?

16 A. I think we did two or three.

17 Q. Were they only --

18 A. Again, sometimes, you know, it was like

19 initially we did a couple of interviews and I think we



20 would pop in, ask her a couple of questions, if she

21 could find some records or whatever.

22 Q. When you found out that she had -- when

23 you found out that it had been reported that she had

24 given cash back on the 16th (sic) of 2009, did that

25 make her, to you as an investigator, a suspect?





165

1 A. I believe she was a suspect before then.

2 Q. With respect to your investigation, at

3 what point did she, if you're able to recall the

4 month, that she became a suspect?

5 A. I cannot.

6 Q. Through the course of your investigation,

7 who have you found was responsible for setting Sandy

8 Norris' salary?

9 A. Ultimately the Sheriff.

10 Q. And the times that she calculated gross

11 and net bonuses, did she do that at the direction of

12 the Sheriff?


14 Q. Did she do that at the direction of

15 Teresa Adams?

16 A. I believe so.

17 Q. And are you able to say, and if you're

18 not that's fine, are you able to say that every single

19 bonus that she ever calculated was for an illegal



20 purpose?


22 Q. What evidence do you have that Sandy

23 Norris' salary was out of line with her particular job

24 duties?

25 A. I don't have any knowledge of that.





166

1 Q. Are you familiar with how often the

2 Okaloosa County Sheriff's Department, with what

3 frequency they were audited?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Are you aware of whether or not at any

6 time before the Sheriff was arrested in February of

7 2009, if the Okaloosa County Sheriff's Department was

8 subject to external audits?

9 A. Yeah, I believe so. I can't -- I can't

10 swear to it.

11 Q. Do you remember who the accounting firm

12 was?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. Did you ever ask anybody, whether it was

15 the forensic auditors that were retained after this

16 came to light or any accountants who may have

17 participated in any type of audit prior to this, how

18 they missed the bonuses that were being paid to people

19 throughout --



20 A. No.

21 Q. -- this scheme? It would be fair to say,

22 though, from your investigation, that all of the

23 schemes that have been charged as criminal conduct

24 were reported to the authorities by third parties who

25 were not auditing accountants? And I know that's not





167

1 a great question. I can ask it in a better way.

2 A. Please simplify it.

3 Q. Yeah. The bottom line is that all of the

4 criminal conduct that's been alleged throughout the

5 accusations against Yacks, Coup, Norris, Morris,

6 Adams, none of that was unearthed by any accounting

7 firm; was it?


9 Q. It was actually brought to light by

10 employees of the Okaloosa County Sheriff's Department?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you're not aware of who the

13 independent auditors were?

14 A. Are you talking about prior to this

15 occurring?

16 Q. Yes, sir.

17 A. No.

18 Q. Have you ever heard of Nicholson, Reeder

19 and Reynolds, the accounting firm?



20 A. I've heard of it.

21 Q. Have you ever talked to anybody from

22 Nicholson, Reeder and Reynolds through the course of

23 your investigation?


25 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, I have to take





168

1 this.

2 MR. KLOTZ: We can take a break anyway.


4 3:30 p.m., after which the deposition continued

5 at 3:41 p.m.)

6 Q. (By Mr. Klotz) I want to show you page

7 19 of the Carr, Riggs, Ingram report again. And I'm

8 going to refer you to just one of these bonuses that

9 kind of jumped out at me was Paula Nicole Wagner.

10 I've underlined it for you. Through your

11 investigation, are you aware of what the justification

12 was for her 24,000-dollar bonus?

13 A. I can't remember at this time. I would

14 have to go back and look at the recordings.

15 Q. Okay. You would agree with me that

16 that's one of the higher bonuses on that page;

17 wouldn't you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And I'm going to show you what's marked



20 as SN000312. I can't tell you where this document

21 came from. It is from out of the discovery somewhere.

22 But I was wondering if you can tell me whose initial

23 that is, if you're aware of, through the course of

24 your investigation? It looks like an "E" circled. Do

25 you have any idea whose initial that is?





169

1 A. No, I don't.

2 Q. Have you seen this document before?

3 A. I don't recognize it.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. Whose number is this?

6 Q. That's my personal number.

7 A. That's your personal number?

8 Q. Yeah.

9 A. I don't recognize it. Is it not part of

10 the audit?

11 Q. No, I don't think it's part of the audit.

12 A. Okay.

13 Q. I'm going to also show you a page marked

14 SN000325 and just ask you if you've seen that document

15 before. Do you have any idea who drafted that

16 document?

17 A. No, but I'd like a copy of it.

18 MR. EDGAR: If we can have a copy

19 attached to the record.



20 MR. KLOTZ: Yeah, happy to give you a

21 copy.

22 Q. (By Mr. Klotz) And if you can find out

23 who drafted it, would you let me know?

24 A. Uh-huh. We did not give you any copies

25 of the stuff that you were looking at from the FBI





170

1 search warrant; did we? We haven't given those copies

2 to you yet; right?

3 Q. I have to answer like you. I really

4 don't remember.

5 A. Okay.

6 Q. Seriously, just from the volume, I can't

7 tell you.

8 A. Okay.

9 Q. Let me see if there are any other

10 documents that I need to give you that you don't have.

11 MR. EDGAR: By all means.

12 MR. KLOTZ: Really.

13 Q. (By Mr. Edgar) Are you aware of -- okay,

14 let's talk about for a second -- let's talk about your

15 application for a warrant, okay. This I think has

16 been showed to you before.

17 MR. KLOTZ: Have we marked it? Maybe

18 we'll mark it next.

19 (Whereupon, document was not marked as an



20 exhibit.)

21 Q. (By Mr. Klotz) And I'll just refer you

22 to page two, paragraph (c) regarding Sandra G. Norris.

23 In the first paragraph, the allegation is that she

24 facilitated -- and I'm just going to skip into it a

25 little bit -- facilitated the kickback scheme by





171

1 calculating gross and net bonuses. Now, that was

2 something that was part of her job description;

3 correct, was to calculate gross and net bonuses that

4 were awarded by the Sheriff; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. Was it also not part of her job

7 description to oversee the transfer of funds and

8 payments of bonuses to employees as directed by the

9 Sheriff?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. In the last sentence in that

12 paragraph is that she participated in the scheme and

13 benefited personally. I understand what you're saying

14 there, but as far as the calculation of the gross and

15 net bonuses for the other people who received bonuses

16 in this particular scheme, what evidence have you

17 collected or seen that shows that she knew -- Sandy

18 Norris had knowledge that the bonuses were unlawful to

19 the other individuals besides herself?




21 Q. I've already asked you about the second

22 paragraph earlier indirectly. Let's see, the third

23 paragraph of Section (c), page two of your Warrant

24 Application, Norris concealed or falsified or caused

25 others to conceal or falsify employee payroll records





172

1 by listing the payments as bonuses when, in fact, she

2 knew that they were merely as a pretext to obtain cash

3 for the personal use of Morris and his accomplices.

4 Now, besides her own transfer of $4,000 on

5 January 19th -- or January 16th of 2009 of $4,000,

6 what evidence do you have or have you found through

7 the course of your investigation that she knew that

8 other individuals besides herself were giving cash

9 back to the sheriff?

10 A. I'm sorry to say, I can't remember what

11 that was to cause me to write this and sign off on it.

12 I would have to go back and look at the case and try

13 to figure out where our evidence was for that.

14 Q. Okay. In fact, isn't it true in the

15 course of your investigation that you found that when

16 the audits were done that the amounts of money were

17 actually listed as bonuses in the Sheriff's ledger;

18 weren't they?

19 A. I don't know what you're talking about.



20 Q. Well, this paragraph, the third

21 paragraph --

22 A. First off, what is the Sheriff's ledger?

23 Q. Well, the books or the accounting

24 mechanism that the Sheriff used. Those payments were

25 actually listed in the Sheriff's records as bonuses;





173

1 weren't they?

2 A. I don't have direct knowledge of what

3 you're referring to in the ledger. I have the audit

4 records which shows the bonuses. I don't think I

5 personally saw a ledger in the Sheriff's Office.

6 Q. Okay. And let's talk about the last

7 paragraph of (c) on page two of your application.

8 Norris used her knowledge of the scheme to her

9 advantage. In 2007, she falsified her payroll records

10 by entering 135.9 overtime hours. Through the course

11 of your investigation, have you discovered any

12 evidence that suggests that she was instructed to do

13 that by her superior?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Have you asked Teresa Adams about that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And did she deny it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was this the only instance of any type of



20 overtime irregularity that you found through the

21 course of your investigation with regards to Sandy

22 Norris?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is this the only instance of overtime

25 irregularity that you found with regards to any other





174

1 employee of the Okaloosa County Sheriff's Department

2 through the course of your investigation?

3 THE WITNESS: Let me talk to Mr. Edgar.


5 A. Yes, we did. And we've charged -- the

6 Sheriff was charged with that, but there are others

7 that we are still looking at and I cannot reveal their

8 information.

9 Q. (By Mr. Klotz) Was Sheriff Morris

10 charged with this instance of overtime or with his own

11 instance of overtime payment when you say that?

12 A. Not his. I'm talking others in the

13 agency, not this one.

14 MR. EDGAR: Not this.

15 Q. (By Mr. Klotz) And what's the allegation

16 with respect to those cases that Charlie Morris had

17 directed somebody to pad their time?

18 MR. EDGAR: Restore leave.

19 MR. KLOTZ: That's the restoration of



20 leave?

21 MR. EDGAR: Yes. I think that's what

22 he's talking about.

23 Q. (By Mr. Klotz) Is that what you're

24 talking about?

25 A. Yes.





175

1 Q. As far as you know and as far as you have

2 discovered through the course of your investigation,

3 this particular overtime incident was an isolated

4 event and not part of the overall conspiracy; is that

5 fair to say?

6 A. Pertaining to Norris' transaction?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. With respect to your training and

10 experience, especially in the area of financial

11 crimes, if there had been no kickbacks that were

12 provided by Norris, setting aside the isolated

13 incident of the overtime, would that have been

14 sufficient to charge her with a crime, if there had

15 been no kickback with regard to her bonuses?

16 A. I can't answer that. That's a

17 hypothetical. There's so many things to look at that

18 I really can't -- I don't feel comfortable giving an

19 answer to that.



20 Q. Getting close, bear with me. What

21 evidence do you have, if any, that Sandy Norris knew

22 that money was being given to people to fund gambling

23 trips outside of her own allegations that she has?

24 A. Outside of the money that she received?

25 Q. Yes, sir.





176

1 A. I don't believe she knows any.

2 Q. What evidence have you discovered through

3 the course of your investigation that indicates Sandy

4 Norris knew that any of the money that was being

5 returned to the Sheriff was being used for gifts for

6 Sabra Thornton?

7 A. I'm sorry, redo that.

8 Q. Yeah. What evidence have you discovered

9 through the course of your investigation that Sandy

10 Norris knew that the money being returned to Sheriff

11 Morris was being used for gifts for Sabra Thornton?

12 A. I can't remember if there was anything.

13 Q. Have you ever seen any of the internal

14 affairs investigation reports or statements with

15 regards to Sandy Norris?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Are you aware -- are you aware of whether

18 or not the State Attorney's Office has a copy of any

19 of the internal affairs reports with regard to Sandy



20 Norris?

21 A. To the best of my knowledge, no.

22 Q. Did Sandy Norris, to your knowledge,

23 through the course of your investigation, receive any

24 gifts from Sheriff Morris as a result of her returning

25 money to him? Let me ask that a better way. Did she





177

1 receive any gifts from Sheriff Morris that you have

2 discovered through the course of your investigation?

3 A. Bonuses, nothing else.

4 Q. And that's really what I'm getting at.

5 Besides the bonuses --

6 A. That's all.

7 Q. -- there were no other gifts? For

8 instance, Ms. Thornton was alleged to have been given

9 golf clubs --

10 A. Right.

11 Q. -- a shotgun, jewelry?

12 A. Bonuses is all that I know of.

13 Q. What evidence, if any, have you

14 discovered through the course of your investigation

15 that Sandy Norris knew of Charlie Morris collecting

16 money to pay off a credit card for Sabra Thornton?

17 A. I don't believe she had any knowledge.

18 Q. What evidence, if any, have you

19 discovered through the course of your investigation



20 that Sandy Norris had knowledge of the cash exchange

21 that has been alleged to have occurred between Mr.

22 Coup and Sheriff Morris? And when I say, "cash

23 exchange," do you know what I'm talking about?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay.





178

1 A. Well, she was involved in doing the

2 bonuses, which that money went towards, but direct

3 knowledge, I don't know of anything at this time.

4 Q. So there's -- beyond the fact that she

5 was involved in the processing of the bonuses and the

6 payroll, you are not aware of any evidence that she

7 had had actual knowledge of the exchange of cash

8 between Mr. Coup and Sheriff Morris; is that correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. To your knowledge, did Sandy Norris ever

11 claim any travel reimbursement from Okaloosa County

12 Sheriff's Office for her trips to Las Vegas?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Were any of the bonuses that you have --

15 well, let me ask you, do you recall approximately --

16 I'm not asking for a concrete number, but

17 approximately how many bonuses Ms. Norris received

18 throughout the course of her employment?

19 A. I don't feel comfortable answering that,



20 except to the first one.

21 Q. Sure.

22 A. I would have to go back and look at the

23 audit reports and the Sheriff's Office reports.

24 Q. Okay, okay. If I showed you page 20 of

25 the Carr, Riggs, Ingram report of March of '09, would





179

1 that help refresh your memory? Page 20, she's about

2 halfway down the page.

3 A. Uh-huh.

4 Q. Through the course of your investigation,

5 were you able to confirm the accuracy of the number of

6 bonuses as reflected there on page 20 of the Carr,

7 Riggs, Ingram report?

8 A. I can't -- I don't remember if I did

9 confirm this.

10 Q. Okay. And again, I'm not asking you to

11 be specific, but this document indicates that there

12 were a grand total of gross bonuses of approximately

13 $97,000 given in one, two, three, four -- about five

14 bonuses?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is that approximately correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. Were you able to make a

19 determination as to which of those five bonuses were



20 legal and which of those five bonuses were in

21 violation of law or statute? Or is it your position

22 that each and every one of those five bonuses was an

23 illegal bonus?

24 A. One or more of those were illegal.

25 Without going back and looking at all of them, I would





180

1 not venture to say that they are all illegal.

2 Q. On this page 20, we have several

3 individuals that are listed. Did you -- and let me

4 ask you about the whole -- everybody that's listed in

5 the Carr, Riggs, Ingram report that has received

6 bonuses over this period of time is approximately from

7 between page 20 and between page 25, so there's

8 approximately five pages of bonuses, were you able to

9 determine that any of these bonuses were appropriate

10 and legal?

11 A. Well, I believe some bonuses were legal,

12 but I can't specify which ones right now.

13 Q. Okay. And do you have any evidence that

14 you're aware of --

15 A. Let me -- let me go back.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. And that when I say, "legal," I'm not

18 saying legal for the Sheriff to give bonuses, but that

19 it was not part of a kickback and it was not part of



20 any kind of pay-back or anything like that.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. Some might have been for uniforms or

23 something like that.

24 Q. And correct me if I'm mischaracterizing,

25 but one instance, which was the instance in 2009 where





181

1 you have evidence that Ms. Norris kick-backed cash to

2 the Sheriff; isn't that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. Were there any actions that

5 Ms. Norris took during the course of your

6 investigation or that you learned during the course of

7 your investigation that you perceive as being intended

8 to obstruct justice in any way or obstruct the

9 investigation in any way?

10 A. I don't believe she was truthful in the

11 accounting about her payroll overtime.

12 Q. And that's with reference to the stand

13 alone event of the 135.9 hours?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. Is there any other instance that

16 comes to mind besides the instance of the overtime

17 that she attempted to obstruct the investigation, was

18 untruthful?

19 A. That's what I was talking about, the



20 overtime.

21 Q. My question to follow-up on that is:

22 Were there any instances besides the overtime issue

23 that you found her to be --

24 A. Oh, besides that one?

25 Q. Yes, sir.





182


2 Q. And what was the misrepresentation that

3 she made to you or another investigator with respect

4 to the 135 hours?

5 A. That it was authorized by her superiors.

6 Q. The same questions that Mr. Murray asked

7 you a minute ago with regards to Mr. Coup with regard

8 to the RICO charges, with respect to Ms. Norris, in

9 that particular ongoing enterprise through the course

10 of your investigation, who did you discover to be the

11 leader of that enterprise?

12 A. Charlie Morris.

13 Q. Do you have any evidence that Sandy

14 Norris participated in that criminal enterprise as a

15 leader?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And the same question that Mr. Murray had

18 asked you with respect to Mr. Coup about the money

19 laundering. Are the money laundering allegations



20 against Ms. Norris based on the transfer of the bonus

21 money between the Sheriff's accounts and her accounts?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Are there any other activities of

24 Ms. Norris that would give rise to an accusation of

25 money laundering besides those? That's all I'm





183

1 getting to. Is there anything else besides the

2 transfers of monies between the Sheriff's accounts --

3 the bonus monies between the Sheriff's accounts and

4 her personal accounts that would give rise to the

5 allegations of money laundering?

6 A. Also, the money going to Yacks for her

7 benefit.

8 Q. Can you be more specific about which

9 money?

10 A. Monies going to pay for her plane

11 tickets.

12 Q. Besides the instance of reimbursement for

13 plane tickets, would there be any other instances that

14 would give rise to the money laundering that you have

15 discovered through the course of your investigation?


17 MR. KLOTZ: Okay, tender the witness.


19 BY MR. EDGAR:



20 Q. You mentioned that you --

21 MR. PETERSEN: Russ, I just have a few

22 more questions. Do you want me to go after you

23 or before you?

24 MR. EDGAR: Yes, yes, yes, let me have my

25 turn and then you can go after me.





184

1 MR. PETERSEN: Okay, that's fine.

2 Q. (By Mr. Edgar) You mentioned that you

3 made notes including making a spreadsheet?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That spreadsheet is part of your notes?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was it done at the direction of the

8 prosecutor in the case?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. To share with the prosecutor?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Does the information contained in your

13 notes have anything in it or does the spreadsheet have

14 anything in it that is not contained in the source

15 documents provided in discovery to the defense other

16 than Ms. Adams?

17 A. No.

18 MR. EDGAR: Okay, I don't have any more

19 questions.



20 MR. PETERSEN: Okay, just a few,

21 Mr. Crowder. I know you're tired and we are,

22 too.

23 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

24 BY MR. PETERSEN:

25 Q. Is there an ongoing investigation of





185

1 Yacks?


3 Q. Okay. Charlie Morris has told some of

4 the Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office employees that he

5 needed the cash back for employees in need; that was

6 the information that you investigated?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. And you have identified one of the

9 employees in need was DeJesus?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. And I think you said you couldn't

12 identify any other employees in need?

13 A. Well, I believe I -- there was one

14 employee who is now since deceased. I think the money

15 was also for him.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. I can't remember what his name is.

18 Q. Jones, maybe?

19 A. Yes, Mike Jones.



20 Q. Okay. Did you fully investigate that

21 avenue to see if there was other needy employees that

22 received money from Charlie Morris?

23 A. That was one of the things that we looked

24 at. I was subjective as to how thorough we looked at

25 it, but we looked at it and we asked around.





186

1 Q. And the only two that you found were

2 Mr. Jones and Mr. DeJesus?

3 A. Those are all that I can remember at this

4 time.

5 Q. And somebody that suffered from either a

6 hurricane or a fire?

7 A. Yes, sir. And that might have been Mike

8 Jones.

9 Q. Okay. Were there any witnesses or

10 physical evidence that show that Yacks knew of any

11 cash-backs given by any other Sheriff's Office

12 employee?

13 A. I think -- I cannot think of any right

14 now.

15 Q. Okay. Any information that Charlie

16 Morris or Mr. Coup pressured Yacks about keeping quiet

17 about any alleged kickback scheme?

18 A. No, sir.

19 Q. Any facts or witnesses that showed Yacks



20 knew of any bonuses to Coup or to Sandy Norris?

21 A. No.

22 Q. How about improper providing items such

23 as money or anything else to Sabra Thornton, any

24 evidence to show that Yacks knew about that?

25 A. No, sir.





187

1 Q. Was there any evidence or witnesses that

2 there was an agreement between Coup and Mr. Yacks

3 concerning these cash bonuses, cash-back activities?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Yacks and Norris?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Yacks and Thornton?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Any witness or evidence to show that

10 Yacks conducted activities that was a pattern of

11 racketeering, conducted a pattern of racketeering as

12 alleged in Count One?

13 A. Was there any evidence?

14 Q. Yes. Any witnesses or evidence that he

15 conducted a pattern of -- activity with a pattern of

16 racketeering?

17 A. The records show that.

18 Q. What?

19 A. Bank records, Sheriff's Office records.



20 Q. That was -- that's the participation and

21 the conduct?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 MR. PETERSEN: And, Russ, this is one you

24 might want to object to. I don't want you to

25 throw that useless BlackBerry at me.





188

1 MR. EDGAR: I'm still awake.

2 Q. (By Mr. Petersen) Was anyone criminally

3 charged that you did not recommend for prosecution?

4 MR. EDGAR: Objection.

5 Q. (By Mr. Petersen) And a copy of your

6 Excel spreadsheet, will you voluntarily provide that

7 to the defense?

8 MR. EDGAR: Objection.

9 A. No, sir.

10 Q. (By Mr. Petersen) The Carr, Riggs,

11 Ingram report, I think it is, I think it's March of

12 2009, was that an accurate report as to Yacks' bonuses

13 and cash-backs?

14 A. I believe so.

15 Q. Okay. Right now, are you aware of any

16 witness or evidence that Ms. Adams discussed the bonus

17 cash-back pattern with anyone other than Charlie

18 Morris?

19 A. I'd have to look back and review her



20 statements. I can't say right now.

21 Q. Did Mr. Yacks ever receive any benefits

22 of inmate work?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Any evidence that Yacks was involved in

25 any criminal activity involving Sabra Thornton?





189

1 A. No.

2 Q. Any phone taps or other undercover

3 recordings involving Mr. Yacks?

4 A. Not by me.

5 Q. Are you aware of any?

6 A. No, sir.

7 Q. To your knowledge, did Yacks ever receive

8 any cash-back money from any of the other Sheriff's

9 Office employees?

10 A. I'm sorry. Say that again.

11 Q. To your knowledge, did Yacks ever receive

12 any cash-back money from the other Sheriff's Office

13 employees?

14 A. I don't think so.

15 Q. What evidence do you have that Yacks'

16 salary plus bonuses was not commiserate with his job

17 performance and duties?

18 A. Did not do any analysis of his job

19 performance and duties.



20 Q. Okay. As to the money laundering to

21 Mr. Yacks, is that based solely upon the transfer of

22 bonuses and paying for airline tickets?

23 A. And meals --

24 Q. Meals?

25 A. -- or entertainment expenses.





190

1 Q. Okay, anything else.

2 A. That's all I can think of.

3 Q. Okay. And as to Yacks and Morris, who

4 was the leader?

5 A. Morris.

6 Q. Charlie Morris?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. PETERSEN: That's it.

9 MR. EDGAR: Nothing more.

10 MR. PETERSEN: Thank you. And I

11 appreciate your time and patience.

12 MR. KLOTZ: I don't have any more

13 questions. Thank you.

14 (The deposition was concluded at

15 4:15 p.m.)

16

17

18

19



20

21

22

23

24

25





191

1 CERTIFICATE OF OATH

2

3 (STATE OF FLORIDA)

4 (COUNTY OF ESCAMBIA)

5

6 I, Pamela Dee Elliott, Florida Professional

7 Reporter, Notary Public, State of Florida, certify

8 that RANDY B. CROWDER personally appeared before me on

9 the 18th day of March, 2010 and was duly sworn.

10

11 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 7th

12 day of April, 2010.

13

14

15 ______________________________________________ PAMELA DEE ELLIOTT 16 FLORIDA PROFESSIONAL REPORTER NOTARY PUBLIC, STATE OF FLORIDA 17

18

19



20

21

22

23

24

25





192

1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER

2

3 I, PAMELA DEE ELLIOTT, Court Reporter, do

4 hereby certify that I was authorized to and did

5 stenographically report the foregoing deposition of

6 RANDY B. CROWDER; that a review of the transcript was

7 requested; and that the foregoing transcript, pages 1

8 through 194, is a true and complete record of my

9 stenographic notes.

10

11 I further certify that I am not a relative,

12 employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties,

13 nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'

14 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am

15 I financially interested in the action.

16

17 Dated this 7th day of April, 2010.

18

19



20 ______________________________________ PAMELA DEE ELLIOTT 21 FLORIDA PROFESSIONAL REPORTER

22

23

24

25





193

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT IN AND FOR OKALOOSA COUNTY, FLORIDA _______________________________________________

STATE OF FLORIDA,

Plaintiff,

vs. CASE NO.: 2009-CF-1481

JAMES DAVID YACKS,

Defendant. _______________________________________________/

RE: DEPOSITION OF RANDY B. CROWDER TAKEN 03/18/10

DATE SENT: ________ or DATE WITNESS CONTACTED: ________

TO: RUSSELL G. EDGAR Assistant State Attorney M.C. Blanchard Judicial Building Pensacola, Florida 32502

The referenced transcript has been completed and awaits reading and signing within 30 days of the date you were contacted, which is _________________. The transcript is 194 pages long. Please have your client read his deposition and make any corrections on the enclosed Errata Sheet only. Do not write on the transcript. Please forward the original signed Errata Sheet to Anchor Court Reporting, 229 South Baylen Street, Pensacola, Florida 32502. The original of this deposition has been forwarded to the ordering party, and your Errata Sheet, once received, will be forwarded to all ordering parties as listed below.



Thank you.

____________________________________________ PAMELA DEE ELLIOTT, FPR

CC: JAMES MURRAY, ESQUIRE JULIA MURRAY, ESQUIRE NICKOLAS G. PETERSEN, ESQUIRE CHRISTOPHER JOHN KLOTZ, ESQUIRE





194

ERRATA SHEET

WITNESS: RANDY B. CROWDER

RE: STATE OF FLORIDA vs. JAMES DAVID YACKS CASE NO.: 2009-CF-1481 ____________________________________________________

Page Line Correction/Change Reason



Under penalties of perjury, I declare that I have read the foregoing document, pages 01 through 194, and that the facts stated in it are true.

______________ _____________________________ DATE RANDY B. CROWDER

