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flaps/slats wet V1 speed

I was out flying withsome friends and wasasked, "what do you

think creates more lift,flaps or leading edgeslats?" I respondedquickly with flaps, justbecause of the cambercreated by flaps.What do you all thinkcreates more lift?

Also, how does a wet! speed effect weight,performance, etc.?I told him that the !

speed would be lowerand your weight wouldbe limited and finallyyour obstacle clearancewould be degraded from#ft to !#ft.$oes this sound right?

%hanks in ad&ance'

31st October 2003, 08:02 #2 (permalink )

(ot$og %he )e&erend *oin $ate+ ct !---ocation+/ydney,0/W,Australia1osts+ !,-2#

ufthansa 3234!5 crashed on %6 in 0airobi, 75 0o&. !-32 due tothe failure of the 8 flaps to e9tend although %8 flaps were in the%6 range.

! is reduced by !5:%/ and this will produce screen heightsbetween !# 4 7#ft.

1st November 2003, 00:13 #3 (permalink )

mutt

*oin $ate+ /ep !---ocation+ ;81osts+ ,ero. I dont know of anythat are appro&ed with only flaps e9tended. %his would lead me tosay that slats are more effecti&e.

Wet ! changes really depend on the aircraft date ofmanufacture. 2 engine aircraft usually only ha&e a speeddecrement, twin engined aircraft will ha&e a speed and weightdecrement. %he 4speed decrements can be a lot higher than the!5 knots mentioned abo&e.

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;utt.

1st November 2003, 22:04 #4 (permalink )

oner

*oin $ate+ ;ay 755!ocation+ Area #71osts+ !ero flaptakeoffs with slats e9tended on the $4-45 and e&erything waspretty normal. /o IBd ha&e to say I would want the 8$s if I couldonly choose one.

2nd November 2003, 06:22 #5 (permalink )

%onic 1lease *oin $ate+ *ul 7557ocation+ 1aris, Crance.Age+ 7#1osts+

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(ot$og %he )e&erend *oin $ate+ ct !---

ocation+/ydney,0/W,Australia1osts+ !,-2#

Wet runway surface !.


*agbag

*oin $ate+ *un 7557ocation+ 0orthern(emisphere1osts+ FF

Slats or LE Flaps Vs TE Flaps

/lats impro&e the low speed handling of an aerofoil by a largeamount due to delayed separtion of boundary layer, increased liftgenerating surface etc. while %8 or 8 Claps increase the camber6

total surface area and thereby the lift and drag.

%his becomes critical in a swept wing planform which has 8 Clapsnear the wing tips where the @ separation is ahead due to thetrans&erse flow across the wing.

If the Angle of attack and the speeds which are meant for slatse9tended are used when slats ha&e failed4 then the aircraft is &eryclose6in the region of re&erse command, where there could be alarge rise in drag for a correspondingly reduced rise in lift. if thisis not detected quickly by a pilot then it could lead to a descendbecause the lift equation of the aircraft is not matching up. (encethe need to critical monitor airspeed and attitude during take

off6go around by @%( pilots. (ence any failure either 8 or %8could result in disaster. Its happened to me when my co pilotraised the flaps to 5 by mistake instead of flaps !# during a singleengine DrawE go around at minima of an I/. uckily managed tocontrol it. thank god it was in the simulator Dbut during a testE.(owe&er my stick shaker did come on momentarily.

%he situations enumerated by other contributors ha&e been whenthe slats ha&e failed but one knew that he6she had no flaps. Acrash may happen e&en if the flaps fail. /o beware of drawing half conclusions.

(ope this helps.


%onic 1lease

*oin $ate+ *ul 7557ocation+ 1aris, Crance.

Hotdog

/pot on thats it. %hought id mention it to shed light on how

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Age+ 7#1osts+

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Kuote+

ufthansa 3234!5 crashed on %6 in 0airobi, 75 0o&. !-32 due

to the failure of the 8 flaps to e9tend although %8 flaps were inthe %6 range.

I belie&e the 8 flaps didnLt fail to e9tend but were ratheraccidentally retracted again prior to t6o.

%his is what my le&el of information is about this particularaccident+ %he 323 was ta9iing to the acti&e )W=, and due to theta9iway ha&ing quite a bit of downslope the crew was using idlere&erse in order to a&oid riding the brakes. 1roblem is, the 323retracts the 8 flaps when re&erse thrust is applied. Apparently thiscan be o&erridden somehow Dsorry for the lack of details, but ILmnot e9actly an e9pert about the systems of a 323, ILm sure

someone else will correct me if ILm wrongE, but for some reasonthe crew neglected to do so.1roblem number 7 was that the warning light for the retracted 8flaps was only present on the C8Ls panel, but he didnLt notice thewarning since he was already facing forward for the departure.

/o the crew started the t6o roll and rotated at the calculated rspeed. %he aircraft actually lifted off, but instead of climbing out itwobbled along a few feet abo&e groundle&el Dwould it be possiblethat it was flying only due to the ground effect?E, and of coursesince it lifted off without 8 flaps it was e9tremely close to stallspeed. %he crew was pu>>led by the une9pected beha&ior of theaircraft, and as a first measure they decided to get the gear up in

order to gain airspeed. (owe&er, when the gear bay doors opened,that was all that was needed to cause enough increase in drag,pushing back the airspeed just enough for the aircraft to stall.%he aircraft hit the ground about one kilometer behind the runwayand skidded for another half kilometer before it came to a rest andburned out. A total of #- people lost their li&es in this accident, 2

crew and ## pa9.

%he accident report claimed "the lack of warning of a criticalcondition of leading edge flap position and the failure of the crew to

complete satisfactorily their checklist items" as major contributoryfactors.

3rd November 2003, 16:06 #14 (permalink )

denachtenmai

*oin $ate+ Aug 755!ocation+ /.A.;. u.k.Age+

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the incident was reported to @oeing but the information was notpromulgated before the 0airobi crash. ;aybe someone moreknowledgable than myself can add further comments.)egards $en.

3rd November 2003, 18:06#15

(permalink )

#752-er

*oin $ate+ ;ay !---ocation+ ;idlands1osts+ !F2

*ust forcompletenessa quote fromthe AAI@report

"%he field wassufficiently

inaccessibleto pre&ent allbut themostpersistentsightseersfrom reachingit. %he policeweresuccessfulincontrollingspectators,andcontemporary

reports thatmembersofthe public hadimpededrescueser&ices bytheir presencenearthe sceneare not borneout by thefacts"

#7

3rd November 2003, 19:20#16

(permalink )

(ot$og %he )e&erend

Kuote+

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*oin $ate+ ct !---ocation+ /ydney,0/W,Australia1osts+ !,-2#

%he 323was ta9iingto theacti&e )W=,and due to

the ta9iwayha&ingquite a bitofdownslopethe crewwas usingidle re&ersein order toa&oid ridingthe brakes.1roblem is,the 323retracts the8 flapswhenre&ersethrust isapplied.Apparentlythis can beo&erriddensomehowDsorry forthe lack of

details, butILm note9actly ane9pertabout thesystems ofa 323, ILmsuresomeoneelse willcorrect meif ILmwrongE, but

for somereason thecrewneglectedto do so.

%he leadingedge de&icestake 3 seconds

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to e9tend with%6 flapsselected sothey wouldha&e been welland truly out

long before ).%he 8astAfricanommunityAccident reportstated thecause of theaccident wasthe failure toselect thepneumaticpower source

for 8 de&icee9tension

Question about turboprops

IBm about to start the transition course from the &enerable @onan>a A< tothe 1iper heyenne or the @eech :ing Air.

Although IB&e studied a lot about jet aircrafts and itBs systems, I know littleor almost nothing about turbopropellers.

%he one thing that intrigues me the most is the pressuri>ation controls at the:ing Air, as IB&e seen in pictures. ItBs seems to lack any automation at all'ItBs worst than the 334755 pressuru>ation controls, e&en the @755 or the@#5.

(ow this system works and why it still made this old4fashioned way?

%hankBs for any responses'

5th November 2003, 17:55#2

(permalink )

>89pat

PPuNea!oli"

*oin $ate+ *un 7555ocation+ 1ort ;orbid

If I were toin&oke haiku for this, IBdsay that it isbecause it is.And thatBsabout thewhole story. I

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1osts+ ,7#3 donBt knowhow old youthink :ingairsare, but thefact is that itsBpressurisation

system was,like theaeroplaneitself, notmadeyesterday.

1ersonally,IB&e ne&erhad aproblem withthe

functionalityof the systemand really failto understandwhy thisseems such aproblem. I setthepressurisationcontrol towhere I wantit and monitorcabin climb or

descent, andthedifferential, tomake suree&erythinghappens theway it should.nce IB&e setit, the systemactually I/automatic inthat it will

take the cabinto the desiredcabin altitudeand maintainit for me.

All I ha&e todo is watch tomake sure it

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happens.And, ofcourse, Ineed to knowwhat to doabout it if it

doesnBthappen.

5th November 2003, 20:08 #3 (permalink )

8!2#

*oin $ate+ 0o& 755ocation+ @ra>il1osts+ #7

T!an#s$

%hankBs for you response.

%he fact is IB&e ne&er been on a :ing Air or heyenne, and I donBt

ha&e the manuals yet.

ooking at the pictures of the :ingBs cockpit, I saw thepressuri>ation panel I found it odd. IBm so used to the @oeing33Bs systems Dwich I learned during my graduationE that Ithought the :ingBs system odd.

therwise, could anyone e9plain me what is :ingBs or heyenneBsperformance capabilities in case of a engine failure on takeoff?IBm know the CA) hapter 7#Bs rules, but ne&er saw therequirements for turboprops in general a&iation.

%hankBs'


&un>ke

*oin $ate+ 0o& 755ocation+ 0etherlands1osts+ 2

(i 8!2#,

1erformance wise the :ing Air is a beautifull plane as it is in e&eryother aspect. IB&e done about 7555 hrs on it in I1 charter andlo&ed the plane. /ingle engine performance is great and with therudder assist Dalso a &ery basic but non the less effecti&e systemEa &ery pilot friendly aircraft.

Id say, sit back and rela9, listen to you instructor and study thebooks and youll enjoy the ride from the first flight on...

ha&e fun


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>89pat

PPuNea!oli"

*oin $ate+ *un 7555ocation+ 1ort ;orbid1osts+ ,7#3

=eah, IB&e got a few thousand hours on :ingairs, 4-5 and @755

%he latter is what I refer to as a gentlemanBs aeroplane. It is a&ery &ersatile aeroplane indeed with good slow speed

performance thatBs got me out of a few difficult situations. In oneinstance, due to an A% stuff4up, I ended up at !5,555 feet at !5$;8 on approach and was able to rescue the situation with a !+!descent profile &ery nicely.

I ha&e an idea that, after a particularly nasty prang on take4offfrom /ydney, in&ol&ing a @755, many years ago some flight testswere conducted. If my aging memory ser&es me correctly, thetests found that. at ;%W in gi&en conditions Dand with a pilotwho was ready for itE, an engine failure prior to ! could benegotiated without rejecting the take4off. %hat is, the aeroplaneactually accelerated to ! on one engine and got airborne, then

flew a circuit and landed again.

learly, not the sort of thing to e9plore too closely, but anindicatuon of just how good the aeroplane really is.

IB&e enjoyed all my @755 flying immensely and can recommend itto you &ery highly. As %une says, "sit back and relax, listen toyou instructor and study the books and youll enjoy the ride from

the first flight on". IBm sure that youBll enjoy this &ery forgi&ing

and fle9ible aeroplane.


8!2#


V1' se"ond seg(ent' et"

$o the :ing Air ha&e a published !, ) and 7 for each weigh Mtemp?

In case of a engine failure at !, will the :ing o&erfly the runwayend at or abo&e # ft?

What !, ), 7 and )8C is common to use?

an you use reduced thrust Dor assumed temperatureE ontakeoff?

Any problem in reducind prop rpm first, before reducing thetorque, at the first reduction after takeoff?

/orry for asking so many questions, but thankBs for your help.

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ation controls on all :ingairs De9cept perhaps for someearly A-5BsE are e9tremely easy to operate. %he same can be saidfor heyennes again e9cept for some early IIBs. In the earlymodels of those you ha&e to select cabin altitude and then after

takeoff select ascend, neutral at top of climb and then when readyfor descent, reset cabin altitude and select descend. 0ot likelyyouBll run into that unless you get into something manufacturedmid35Bs &intage.

%here is not really anything to gain in using reduced thrusttakeoffs in this catagory of aircraft and might get you into a badsituation one day if ;r ;urphy raises his head and you ha&e anengine loss as the gear is going in the wells.

If you reduce prop )1; first after takeoff without reducing torquefirst you will almost certainly e9ceed torque limlts. %orque willincrease as you reduce prop )1;.


compressor stall

*oin $ate+ Ceb 7555ocation+ #55 miles fromhaikhosi, =ogistan1osts+ !,-75

Crom the 7556755 1(. 0ote these are not )aisbeck modified:ingAirs'

When looking at the figures remember that you are dealing withan CA)7 certified aeroplane. In a nutshell all it is required to do

is maintain a positi&e rate of climb on one engine up to a certainheight.

@eechcraft offer the computations and charts for a balanced fieldlength. %hey state that it is possible to reduce weight to "obtainthe performance specifications of CA) 7# during the critical takeoff and initial climb segments. ...full compliance with otherregulations applicable to CA)7# is not implied." It is quite anin&ol&ed process and a lot of iterati&e calculations need to beperformed.Dthe e9ample they use is on a hot day at #555B field, 7Nkms ofrwy and !5 kts headwind, you need to limit your weight by 7555lbs below ;%W'E

/o the following answers deal specifically with non CA) 7# charts

$o the :ing Air ha&e a published !, ) and 7 for each weigh Mtemp?%hey publish a rotate speed and a #5 foot speed for differentweights Dr is always -#kias and #5B is !7!O!7#55 down to!5FkiasO-555lbs.! equals r according to the notes.

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In case of a engine failure at !, will the :ing o&erfly the runwayend at or abo&e # ft? )efer the charts and the comments abo&e.If light yes, it should.

What !, ), 7 and )8C is common to use?

/ee abo&e figues. Approach /peed Dthey donBt use the term refEis !5kiasO!7#55lbs down to -O-555.

an you use reduced thrust Dor assumed temperatureE ontakeoff?Why would you want to make a performance that is marginale&en more so?

Any problem in reducind prop rpm first, before reducing thetorque, at the first reduction after takeoff?=es 4 your torque will go though the limits. %akeoff torque O775ftlbs . )1; O 7555. we reduce to 7555ftlbs and !-55 at first

power reduction D/A% at night6I;E. %o easiest procedure isreduce the power to !-55ftlbs and then pull the props back to!-55rpm. %he torque will rise to about 7555ftlbs then and onlysmall change necessary to peg it e9actly.A lo&ely machine to fly. A tad thirsty perhaps, but a new :ingairclimbs out like a homesick angel. As for the pressurisation 4 itBspretty simple really. @efore t6off set the pressurisation controllerto the cruise alt plus !555 and before %$ set the airfieldele&ation plus #55B Dthere is a chart to be more specific if youmustE. Wind it slowly to begin with to a&oid cabin drop, but itworks fine. /moother than the 1!7Bs pressurisation controller'


8!2#


)power) redu"tion a S/E perfor(an"e

/orry for asking, asking, asking, again and again'

$oes the manual say the :ing will fly, after an engine failure atrotation, at standard day, with ;%W?

Is there a takeoff chart with the 1erformance4imited ;%W for

runway lenght, slope, temp M ele&ation?

What the CA)7 says about single engine performance on takeofffor :ing4like planes?

I though it would be interesting to reduce temps with a reducedpower takeoff, to sa&e the hot section of the engines. If therewere takeoff charts like the ones on @oeingBs manuals, with fieldlimited and climb limited performances, we would be able to

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calculate engine power to meet at least CA) 7 requirements,when not fully loaded.

What do you think?


>89pat

PPuNea!oli"


I suspect that you might ha&e misinterpreted my pre&ious post.%he @755 :ingair is not a CA)7# aeroplane. %herefore you cannotthink about it in those terms. %he incident to which I referred inmy pre&ious post occurred because, it is alleged, that the pilotused a reduced thrust take4off technique for noise abatementpurposes. It is generally assumed that he belie&ed that there wassufficient runway length for that and, indeed, that was probablytrue... if and only IC nothing went wrong during the take4off.

Well, something went horribly wrong.

It is ne&er a good idea to consider reduced thrust in anyaeroplane of that class. %here is nothing to be gained by it as thenoise footprint is far less, e&en at ma9 take4off thrust, than thea&erage jet. %his, of course, is simply my own opinion, but I feelsure it is a widely held opinion.

%here A)8 performance limitations but, for take4off, they mostlyresol&e into the clash between torque and temperature DI%%E. Atleast, thatBs the case in my e9perience. We ha&e /1s that say

that, if we ha&e !555 metres of runway up to about !,555 feetele&ation, we can go at ;%W and still meet balanced field lengthconsiderations.

I operate in the tropics where the a&erage temperature isbetween I/A N!# and I/A N75, so an ele&ation of !,555 feet canproduce a density altitude of around 7,#55 feet. I operate intoaerodromes up to ##55 feet A;/ Dsome operators take @755s inand out of airstrips at much ele&ationsE but we ha&e /1s to dealwith the reduced take4off weight.

%he performance limitations based on runway length andassociated en&ironmental conditions are related to take4offweight. %hese charts always assume that you will use the I%% andtorque associated with the conditions. %o that e9tent, yes, there isan argument concerning reduced take4off thrust, but I think youneed to read the ;anual to understand it.

%he @755 is not a @oeing. I can do no more than to stronglyrecommend that you study the ;anual, belie&e it, but add a fudgefactor to ensure that you can enjoy a beer at the Aero lub after

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each flight.

It is a great aeroplane and a &ery forgi&ing one, but it $8/ ha&eits limitations, just like e&ery other aeroplane. If you follow all thegood ad&ice that has been offerred so far in this thread, by allthose who ha&e replied, youBll enjoy flying the aeroplane. *ust,

please, please, please, consider it as more of a A type aeroplanethan a @oeing.

In fact, if you forget all about the @oeing, you might be better off.%hat way, you can e9plore itsB performance gently, in a morecontrolled and professional manner, and find out for yourself whatit will do for you when the chips are down.

%he post by my good mate "o(pressor stall is spot4on, so Irecommend that you take a copy of it for reference in yourtraining.


compressor stall

*oin $ate+ Ceb 7555ocation+ #55 miles fromhaikhosi, =ogistan1osts+ !,-75

=ou might want to study these links.

CA) 7#

CA) 7

f course just open and print the rele&ant bits. 1lace them side byside and understand what CA) 7 does 0% say.

/

B$ay *&E+ whatBs to go with the geography mo&ement? you got

a new job or sumfink?


8!2#


F, -. "o(plian"e

I read the CA)7, about commuter planes. ery enlightening.

Well, please correct me if IBm wrong, but I think the %6performance for a :ing4like DcommuterE turboprop is+

%6 runway requirements+

7 engines running+ !!#P of the distance required to climb to #ftat not less than 7

! engine running+ the distance required to climb to #ft, at not

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less than 7, in the case of a failure after !, of course

climb requirements+

gear down, runway le&el+ must demonstrate a measurable climb,%6 power M %6 flaps, not touching the engine le&ers

gear up+ 7P climb gradient up to 255ft, %6 power, %6 flaps, nottouching engine le&ers

abo&e 255ft up tp !#55ft+ !,7P climb gradient, ;1, flaps up

Well, thanks for the ad&ice, compressor stall. It did help a lot.

I can now figure out that the capabilities of commuters are notcomparable to those of transport jets. ItBs impossible to complywith any /I$Bs climb gradients. Cor me, the most critical momentswould be beetween the liftoff and the gear retraction. I can

imagine the consequences of a propeller failing to autofeather.

I forgot to mention+

:nowing the marginal performance beetween liftoff and 7, Iknow realise why you folks donBt recommend any power reductionat %6. @efore retracting the gear, it may be hard to keed thisbaby flying' 8&ery single horse would help a lot in such asituation'

%hankBs'


%instaafl

*oin $ate+ $ec !--Focation+ 8scapee fromQltima %hule1osts+ 7,-5

Why do light twins , including commuters, ha&e two engines?@ecause they need @%( of them.

At best theyBre the equi&alent of a single engine a6c with half itsengine mounted Bo&er thereB and the other half mounted Bo&erhereB. %his means that an engine failure is constrained to be morelike a BpartialB failure of the DsingleE engine.

ike single, a partial failure may lea&e you with enough power tomaintain flight......or it may not. Instead of ha&ing sufficiente9cess of power to guarantee performance Dtwo engine or CA)7#a6cE youBre now in the situation where you just barely ha&eenough JJICJJ the a6c is configured optimally. @%W, gear down,flap down M prop windmilling is not BoptimalB....

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>89pat

PPuNea!oli"


IBm glad that thereBs been enough help for you, E14., inunderstanding what the aeroplane is certified to do. (a&ing ahealthy respect for it will help to ensure that you enjoy the time

you spend flying it.

stallie... no such luck mate. ItBs just a two4month swan on

e9penses' 0othing less than I deser&e, of course'


8!2#


engine(anage(ent

I ha&e a fewmore questions+

I know that the)1; has aneffect on torque, just like the realengines Dthereciprocrating bigbores are morefun'E, but, isthere any effectof )1; on %I%?

WhatBs the bestcondition forcruise, in termsof enginemanagement? Itincludes+ fuelefficiency, enginelonge&ity DlowtempsE andnoise.

I ne&er saw anturboprop powerchart, but Iwould like toknow the bestcombination oftorque 9 )1; toachie&e the

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abo&e results./urely )1;Bsleads to lownoise le&els, butis it good to fuelefficiency? Is it

good for enginelonge&ity?

$oes the use ofde4ice de&icesreduce theengine powerDpropeller output,to be moreaccurateEsignificantly?

%hankBs inad&ance'

I ha&e a fewmore questions+

I know that the)1; has aneffect on torque, just like the realengines Dthereciprocrating bigbores are more

fun'E, but, isthere any effectof )1; on %I%?

WhatBs the bestcondition forcruise, in termsof enginemanagement? Itincludes+ fuelefficiency, enginelonge&ity Dlow

tempsE andnoise.

I ne&er saw anturboprop powerchart, but Iwould like toknow the bestcombination of

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torque 9 )1; toachie&e theabo&e results./urely low )1;sleads to lownoise le&els, but

is it good to fuelefficiency? Is itgood for enginelonge&ity?

$oes the use ofde4ice de&icesreduce theengine powerDpropeller output,to be moreaccurateE

significantly?

%hankBs inad&ance'


/heep uts Props are for boats$

*oin $ate+ ct 7555ocation+ An Asian (ub

Age+ 271osts+ F3#

day 8!2#,Well good postssofar all the @755urusD>89patand /tallieE. Imnot one,maybe aA-5 uru and a%wotter hacker.@ut mategenerally enginewear with%urbines is doneduring start upand shut down.=ou ha&e to takenote of the imitsin I%%, and stick

to them, but notuse them as apower setting Dassome peopleE.Cor e9ample on aA-5 the ;a9continous I%% inthe cruise is 35#.0ow thats a

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limit , ne&er setit in the cruise.

Also monitor andrecord you starttemps. %he

limitation weknow for all 1%

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1rops. Adefinition of this,maybe needed.@asically we alldo reducedpower takeoffs,

especially in the%ropics becausewe get to ur I%%limit much moreeasily, due to theincreasedambeint %emp.When I I flew%wotter 4755/WI%( 475engines we had-5P power

takeoff cards thatwe used to setthe % %orquewith A% and%W, if I amrecalling basicallyit was the sameinput as on the%orque computerwhich $eha&ilandsupply with alltheir %wotters.

We would ha&ereduced torquesettings. If therewould be asetting for 7engines and onefor !I01 whichwas alittle higher.

fcourse when Imo&ed to455%wotter the

temps limitswere still therebut the engineswere alot moreaccomadating.

=es bleed aireffects power

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output. @ut onlyslightly. Withnothing touchedafter turning onbleed air younotice a slight

reduction intorque and slightincrease inCClow.

Cuel efficeincyyou will getbetter withaltitude ,just likeyour 33, nodifference really.And the most

optimum will be&ery close toyour ;a9 I%%ruise limitincidently.

When I le&el offat around C755in my A-5, I setup the props to!-55 )1; asspecified. @ut if Iforget to bring

back the )1; to!-55 from 7555then Ill noticesmall diffferencein %orque andCuel flows. A%7555 )1; for agi&en torquesetting I get a ahigher fflow thanfor say !-55)1;.Why you ask?

Well its designedfor it the)eduction ear@o9 and themutlitude of testflight hours doneby the @eech1eople got theoptimum setting.

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All the rusie1ower %ables inA-5 ;anualanyway use!-551);.

Anyway enoughof my blithering

(ope it helps

/heep

=ep 89 A-5s and

-5s are , buthey thats whatall the other ones

got their genesfrom

Engine Fire on Ta#e *ff0 T*, appli"ation0

What are your &iews on the application of %A during a C8R %6 withengine fire?

If the aircraft is a large twin jet and the fire bell goes off at !, do youconsider it wise or not to apply %A on both Dassuming the a6c isclimbing : anyhow on C8R powerE.

30th Jn!r" 2004, 18:36 #2 (permalink )

/pearing @ritney

*oin $ate+ *an 7555ocation+ (ang on, IBll check my roster...1osts+ !-3

If it goes at !then %A,because yousimply donBtknow how it willclimb 4 e.g. is thewing damagedtoo? If it goesonce airborneand climbcontinuesstrongly thenremain at C8Rbut if in anydoubt then apply%A and riskinducing failurein an already

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soon4to4be4shutdown enginefor that e9tra fewfeet that maymake all thedifference...

%oo simplistic?

31st Jn!r" 2004, 10:59 #3 (permalink )

8lliot ;oose

*oin $ate+ Ceb 7555ocation+ ;ontreal1osts+ !!<

;y understanding is that %A is not required. %he whole point of runway analysis and the computation of fle9 thrust is to ensurethat the aircraft will still meet all nominal climb requirements,including engine out, the same as it would if the takeoff wereactually e9ecuted at the fle9 temperature.

%hat said, if one has presence of mind to apply %A thrust, thenso much the better, as you would perform with that much more"comfort room" and, as stated abo&e it would certainly be a goodidea in the e&ent of se&ere structural damage. n at least someDif not allE CA$8 equipped aircraft, %A or A1) is automaticallyapplied once the CA$8 detects the single engine schedule.

31st Jn!r" 2004, 22:57 #4 (permalink )

Idunno

*oin $ate+ Aug 755!ocation+ ;id Atlantic1osts+ 23F

I agree with both points, but arenBt you concerned about the idea

of pumping BRB kilos more fuel per second into a burning engine?

31st Jn!r" 2004, 23:25 #5 (permalink )

alf#53!h

*oin $ate+ *ul 755ocation+ An Island 1ro&ince1osts+

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limit D755 ft6minE thatSs # min of burning time, which is withinmost design assumptions and safe.

31st Jn!r" 2004, 23:41 #6 (permalink )

CullWings

*oin $ate+ $ec 755ocation+ %ring, Q:1osts+ #5

(a&ing flown different types, some requiring %A thrust after anengine BfailureB, some not, I would say there are arguments inboth directions.

In the lower powered aircraft, it seemed like a good idea 4 getaway from the ground because youBll soon be on one less. Insome of the later turbofan twins, you were ne&er short of powerand full thrust could actually make handling more difficult.

/cenario+ ight A6, full derate Dfle9E. !6r probably mcg6mcalimited. Adding asymmetric full thrust will put you near the edgeof the controllability en&elope for what gain? If you are fully

derated there is ample fat in the system. I appreciate that theoriginal question referred to a BfireB as opposed to loss of thrustbut a &ery high rate of climb is not always the best thing to ha&e,especially if there is a low le&el off. %here are some nasty littletraps set for you if you end up in one of the Baltitude captureBA1C$ submodes which manufacturers lo&e to include on theirlatest and greatest. %hese can be coped with but remember youha&e probably only just put an A61 in and are now concentratingon shutting down the BrightB engine, initiating an emergency turn,etc. I belie&e an Airbus DA25?E was lost during testing in similarcircumstances.

%o summarise+ If %A thrust is a /1, then follow it. If it isdiscretionary then I would ad&ise caution at low speeds6weights.If you are not happy with the aircraft performance then addpower until you are...

Aside+ /ome years ago the company I work for upgraded to aturbofan &ariant of a particular A6 but carried o&er most of the/1s from the older type, including mandatory %A power.About a year later I heard that that at &ery low weights the C;4speeds could end up close, possibly below mca Dfull thrustEdue to the C; recalculating a new mca based on the derate. IdonBt know the truth but it was an interesting proposition+ lo andbehold suddenly new /1s came out with minimum !s and the

remo&al of mandatory %A application...

1st ebr!r" 2004, 20:26 #7 (permalink )

75$)I8)

*oin $ate+ *an !---ocation+ 8urope

I donBt ha&e any e9perience on derated takeoffs since we only usethe fle9 option. It is my understanding howe&er, that once youselect a derated takeoff Das opposed to fle9E you will only get the

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1osts+ 72 ma9imum derated power from the engine when you go to %A,rather than achie&ing the engineBs full %A.

%his is due to the arguments raised abo&e as regards mca etc.


(udson

1osts+ n6a

WA% limit of 755 feet per minute rate of climb? Are you sure ofthat? ;ethinks that is one big problem if you are talking about atwin jet climbing at !#5 knots 7 one engine inoperati&e at 7.2Pgradient of climb at instant of gear up.


3338foh

*oin $ate+ *ul 755ocation+ (otels1osts+ #

75dri&er,

$onBt know about the Airbus, but in the @oeing, pushing the %Abutton remo&es the derate ie, full % will be achie&ed.


75$)I8)

*oin $ate+ *an !---ocation+ 8urope1osts+ 72

In case of the assumed temperature method D@oeingE or Cle9method DAirbusE I agree that full % would be a&ailable on mo&ingthe thrust le&er to the %A detent.

(owe&er, the derating concept is something different since you

are derating the engine for that takeoff.

%here is some info on http+66www.b33.org.uk6assumedtemp.htmwhich could maybe e9plain the concept better than my posts.(a&ing said that, I cannot comment on the @333 but I would ha&eassumed that the concept is the same.

3rd ebr!r" 2004, 12:35 #11 (permalink )

typhoonpilot

*oin $ate+ 0o& 755!ocation+ ;iddle 8ast1osts+ 25

%he @oeing C; at my airline does indeed say that the first pushof %A after takeoff will, among other things, remo&e the thrust"derates". %he confusion lies in that at my airline we only use theAssumed %emperature method so that is all that will be remo&ed.

It is always best to think of true derating as hanging a differentsi>e engine on the airplane, you canBt &ery well go out and changethat engine once airborne, at least not &ery easily. %hat differsfrom the A% method where you are just reducing the thrustsetting. It is quite easy to push the thrust le&ers forward torecoup that reduction if necessary.

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%o add my two cents to the original question, no way would I addpower for an engine fire indication. 8ngine fire does not equal lossof thrust. If anything you are struggling to get the nose down tole&el off at the ;C)A with an engine fire, why e9acerbate theproblem with more thrust ?

%yphoonpilot

5th ebr!r" 2004, 02:54 #12 (permalink )

mM&

*oin $ate+ $ec !---ocation+ delta.bc.canada1osts+ 7#-

Cle9,is the same as derated power,just another oBs name for it.$erated thrust meets the BcertB criteria for the 7.2Pgradient on08.%he additional thrust at %A was a =AW consideration onthe 323Dwait until airbornE.ha&ing said that some oBs call for%A thrustDon twinsE,e&ery little bit helps, after takeoff.

It has been said that since the ad&ent of BreducedBthrust,in the

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Its not written as an /1 in our books Dits for Bconsideration bythe pilotBE but he was utterly adamant that it should alwa3s beset.

IBll continue to Bconsider itB first I think.


mM&

*oin $ate+ $ec !---ocation+ delta.bc.canada1osts+ 7#-

idunno,what doesyour6the flight;anual say as to theapplication ofBthrustBwith afire6failure attakeoff.....)ememberreduced 6fle9 thrust alu9ury of generous

runway lengthsDroomto spare 4ease up onthe thrustE.nce onehas a failure,usewhat power you ha&ea&ailableD:I//E

heers


/188$@I)$#C1

*oin $ate+ Aug 755!ocation+ (8)8 A0$ %(8)81osts+ 2!

*ust a thought.

@ut on the boeing ifly, granted it is quitean old one D334755,/1!33 autopilotE, ontake off, u press thetoga and once youget the throttle holdat circa

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annunication. It is ineffect the same asdoing a le&el changedescent. %hethrottles come backto idle, then they go

into arm mode and ucan set themwhere&er u want.n a go aroundhowe&er, u presstoga and u get 9amount of thrust,press toga a secondtime and u get ma9go around thrust.It may be differenton this type, age of

the aircraft and theengines being set byeprBs, which must beset by

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@asil

*oin $ate+ *un 755!ocation+ Q:1osts+ !,F<

/lightly lower noseattitude toaccellerate to 7 or7 N!5kn. If thatdoesnBt work then itBstime to use up some

of that engine lifethat engineers keepgoing on about Donly joking, C.8.sE

If the aircraft has allengines running anddoes not achie&e 7following a normalrotation thensomethingBs wrong+windshear, hea&ier

than planned, powerdown, gear left down

=es, itBs unsafeinasmuch as flighttested margins arebeing eroded and, inthe e&ent of anengine failure, youcould lose furtherspeed and be in ahigh drag situation,

closer to s, stall in aturn and also be

approaching mcg

IB&e usually foundthat sort of thingBscaused by windshearor to a lesser e9tentimmediately aftertake4off, temperaturein&ersion which tendsto get you a little

later Danother goodreason to achie&e 7N!5E

0ot regularly but atma9 )%W itrequires a bit ofattention but then sodo lightweight

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departures >oomingDgood tabloid termEup to6through initialcleared altitude.

%he standard phrase

for drawing othercrewmembersattention to any ofthe foregoing is+"What the C : : Bsup wiB this thing'"

22nd October 2003, 12:29 #3 (permalink )

2!!A

*oin $ate+ ;ar 7555ocation+ Ari>ona Q/A1osts+ 3,#5F

%his was more of a problem with the old straight4pipe Dnon4fanEpowered hea&y jet aircraft, ie+ 35347! D1rattMWhitney *%2AE or

onway powered machines.After rolling !!,#55 feet on a !7,555 foot runway, then climbingat 76255 fpm, one began to wonder....where is Bd thrust?

All the while hoping one didnBt flame out.

With fan powered aircraft, much better runway performance is the

norm....usually

23rd October 2003, 01:32 #4 (permalink )

backin#

*oin $ate+ ct 755ocation+ australia1osts+ !7

%hanks so much guys, I really appreciate the "heads up".

In regard to legalities... is 7 the actual )8KQI)8$ min. climbspeed? ie. !.!#/? DI canBt remember the actual figureE, or is itregarded as generally acceptable to operate below 7 if theaircraft requires a !7.# degree nose4up pitch attitude for theinitial climb4out?

What IBm getting at is+ If the aircraft operating manual states a!7.# deg pitch angle for initial climb, would you maintain thispitch angle to get away from the ground e&en if the aircraft isoperating below 7?r would it be acceptable6 preferable to, say, fly !5 deg nose4uppitch attitude and fly 7?

%hanks again for your help, itBs really appreciated'


(awker4rider Allright,

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*oin $ate+ 0o& 7555ocation+ Q/A1osts+ 5

when an airplaneBs engine flames out for whate&er reason andcontinues the take4off, after rotation, passing through #feet thespeed at that moment is called 7 or takeoffsafety speed.

/o if you use standard practices as far as rotation etc is concerned

you will reach 7 right after rotation. at least the certificated 7speed. /o going below 7 is basically only possible to do whenyou use practices that are non standard and not appro&ed.

ffcourse there is such a thing a an "optimi>ed 7" which isappro9 !.#s as opposed to the normal certificated 7 which is!.7s

)emember 7 doesnBt ha&e anything to do with the speeds 9and y


backin#


...woops, I just realised how dumb I just sounded'

I understand the definition DI thinkE, but what I really want toknow is how an e9perienced pilot would fly a take4off if theaircraft is not performing as well as it should for whate&erreason...

Is it more important to climb out at 7, but with a lower noseattitude, or would you climb out at the ops manual specified noseup attitude but fly below 7?

Is 7 a legal requirement purely for performance calculations Diefor )%W M rad calculationsE, or a real flying performancespeed?

%hanks, any help??'''

Last edited by backin5 : 2rd October 200 at 02:5!"


(awker4rider


edited the post, because the comments I was referring too ha&e

been remo&ed, so my post wasnBt making sense anymore

Last edited by #awker$rider : 2rd October 200 at %%:&'"


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C8 (oppy

*oin $ate+ /ep !--Focation+ urichAge+ 2!1osts+ F57

mu is abo&e r.&r is the speed at which the pilot initiates rotation. It may not beless than ! or !.5#mca

mu it the speed at or abo&e which the aircraft can safely lift ofthe ground and continue the take off with out ha>ard.

7 is the speed atained at #feet 8I when the aircraft is rotatedat &rit is selected to beV!.!&mcaV!.7&sD!.!&s4!gEV&r=es you will be at &7 at # feet because your take off was plannedthat way. if you are limited then the screen height will be at theend of toda if not it will be somewhere before.

=ou must rotate the aircraft as per the /1 otherwise you

copramise the height atte end of toda. If the speeds donBt match

then the take off calc was wrong.


(awker4rider


???

%he airplane I currently fly has a mu below the rotationspeed perthe flight manual.

I agree with you that the mu D is a fi9ed speedE is higher thenthe W8/% 1//I@8 r, but that that low of a r is not used inoperational speeds, because of the tailstrike that occurs.%herefore the r in the books, for a balanced field length orwhate&er isnBt necessarily lower then mu.

@ack to your main question though.

;ostly you rotate initially to the pitch attitude that is taught, andpro&en in operation. %hen you e9pect to get a certain accelerationfrom that, both engines you will accelerate through 7, and thengradually increase your pitch attitude D or notE to climbout etc. /oif for some reason the speed doesnBt increase as anticipated, Dor

o&er rotatedE IBd slowly decrease the pitch attitude to get thespeed increase. D or should I say instead of decrease thepitch less4increase the pitch because you donBt want to "le&eloff"E

so speed first, then altitude will come'

Last edited by #awker$rider : 2rd October 200 at %2:0("

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sepolnad

*oin $ate+ ct 755ocation+ (ere1osts+ !

b#, there are different ways to deal with it.$uring a situation like an engine failure before reaching 7, but

without any other complication like a secondary system failure,for e9ample, pilots must follow the recommended /1 for theirairplane. Qsually they must rotate at r with a continuous motion.%arget pitch attitude ha&e to be established, adjusting initial climbattitude to maintain a minimum of 7 and positi&e rate of climb.IA/ can increase Dconsidering landing gear retractedE if the pilotflies below initial target pitch attitude, but lower than certainlimits a >ero climb rate or e&en an undesirable downwardmo&ement can occur. 1erformance analyses normally consider asituation where the airplane will pass the opposite runwaythreshold at #ft and 7, at least. Increasing thrust on remainingengineDsE is an option, but usually limited to go around thrust.X @ut now if the situation is beyond a routine emergency drill, itSs

hard to say the best option to follow. )educe pitch attitude? Well,as pre&iously mentioned, the airplane can stop climbing and climbperformance can be se&erely affected. Increase thrust? =es, butnot abo&e engine limits unless in case of impending airplane stallor a possible ground contact. 7 is always a guarantee of safetyDobser&ing some conditions, like bank angle limits, for instanceEand flying below it means a speed close to ;A or e&en belowitX and itSs not really a good deal.6ould 3ou assu(e t!at t!e air"raft loading data wasprobabl3 in"orre"t and t!at t!e air"raft was a"tuall3

!ea%ier t!an w!at t!e figures !ad been "al"ulated forISm sure thereSs no time to confirm itX at least when someone is

fighting to sur&i&e during an 86 with a poor airplaneperformance.


backin#


%hanks to all for e9tremely thought4pro&oking discussion'

IBm still not sure that I know what is correct in the situation, butas most things in this business go, do the right thing on the day

and be hailed a hero, make the other choice and itBs all down to1ilot 8rror again.

I hope this discussion is not considered o&er, because if anybodyfeels like adding, e9panding, contradicting or clarifying further itwill all be &ery much appreciated'

%hank you'

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24th October 2003, 01:15 #12 (permalink )

2!!A

*oin $ate+ ;ar 7555ocation+ Ari>ona Q/A1osts+ 3,#5F

backin#,

arge aircraft performance has changed a lot o&er the years.

With the old 24engine piston types, runway requirements werecalculated with a #5 foot screen height, and the liftoff speed wasto be no less than 7.In normal line flying, the aircraft was not rotated until 7 wasachei&ed. %here was no separate r, under A)2b for pistontypes.With most early turbopropeller types, this was also the case.

When jet transports came along, the regulations were re4writtento allow for a # foot screen height, and due to aerodynamicdesign, a r was established, so as to reach no less than 7 at the

lowered screen height.

I can tell you from personal e9perience flying some of these earlyaircraft Despecially the non4fan powered @35347!E at hea&yweights, it was common practice to begin rotation at r )eryslowly , as these aircraft did not perform well in the climb with thenormal rates of rotation used today with more modern types.

/uspect many younger guys today, if they had one of these oldertypes strapped to their behind, at ;%W, would ha&e eyes thesi>e of dinner plates at the lack of achei&able climbperformance...and this was with all engines operating.

ery long takeoff runs were required, followed by a surprisinglyshallow climb.1ersonally belie&e that the lowered screen height was selected, so

that these types could be certificated in the first place.


C8 (oppy

*oin $ate+ /ep !--Focation+ urichAge+ 2!

1osts+ F57

*ust another thought for your non4normal op.what is your aircrafts sop for windshear.probably ma9 powerDhowe&er its defined by your companyE,wings le&el and fly to the stick shaker. If the world turns to poo

this is probaly your best bet.


;8A:

*oin $ate+ /ep 755!

7 is actually the minimum speed at which, with one engineinoperati&e, a specified gross gradient can be achie&ed DP for 24engined aircraft, 7.3P for 4engined and 7.2P for 74enginedE,

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ocation+ Q:1osts+ 7#7

subject to it being not less than the factors that C8 (oppy statesabo&e.

(owe&er, there is one other consideration that must be taken intoaccountT r must be not less than mcg. %herefore, if r isdetermined by mcg then 7 may become purely the speed which

is attained at screen height following rotation at the specifiedrateT this applies especially at low %W. %his needs to beremembered in older aircraft where flap retraction speeds aresometimes based on 7 D3234755 for e9ampleE. %his procedure isto gi&e a margin abo&e the stall. (owe&er, if 7 is determined byr equalling mcg then the flap retraction speeds will be greaterthan is needed for stall margin.

I know that much of this reply is a little off the original questionbut it is important to realise that if you are below 7 then yourclimb gradient will be reduced.

25th October 2003, 13:45#15

(permalink )

backin#


Crom myunderstanding,7 is also amargin abo&emca, so if 7were say,!#5kts, thenflying !2#ktmeans you are

eroding yourprotections forengine failure 4would probablyneed a lotmore rudder,and some bankand ha&e toget the nosedown in a bitof a hurry....and if your

perf figBs wereindeed under4calculated, youmight actuallybe a lot closerto mca ands than whatyou think...?

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26th October 2003, 16:05#16

(permalink )

rossunder

,%iator

*oin $ate+ ;ay 755!ocation+ 0or&eg1osts+ 2#5

%hereBs a

differencebetweenminimum 7D7minE 4 andactual 7being used forclimbout+

Crom *A) 7#,/ection !+

GDbE 7;I0, interms of

calibratedairspeed,may not beless than YD!E !Z! /)for YDiE %wo4engined andthreeenginedturbo4propellerpoweredaeroplanesTandDiiE %urbojetpoweredaeroplaneswithoutpro&isions forobtaining asignificantreduction inthe one4engineinoperati&epower4on stallspeedTH

GD7E !Z5F /)for YDiE %urbo4propellerpoweredaeroplaneswith more thanthree enginesTand

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DiiE %urbojetpoweredaeroplaneswith pro&isionsfor obtaining asignificant

reduction inthe one4engine4inoperati&epower4on stallspeed+ andDE !Z!5 times;establishedunder*A) 7#.!2-.HDcE 7, in

terms ofcalibratedairspeed, mustbe selected bythe applicantto pro&ide atleast thegradient ofclimb requiredby *A)7#.!7!DbE butmay not beless than Y

GD!E 7;I0TD7E ) plus thespeedincrementattained Dinaccordancewith *A)7#.!!!DcED7EEbeforereaching aheight of # ftabo&e the

take4offsurfaceT andDE A speedthat pro&idesthemanoeu&ringcapabilityspecified in*A)

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!#.!2DgE.H

,utopilot on 8EL

I am writing a paper on ockpit Automation and I would like to know if

some of you could help me.

I would like to know if the e&ent of all autopilots I01 are Bno4goB items ontodayBs commercial aircraft D33, A75, 3

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;a9 Angle

*oin $ate+ ;ay 755!ocation+ ondon,8ngland1osts+ -F-

Also required nowadays for flight in )/; airspace.


8;

*oin $ate+ ;ay 755ocation+ %he )oman8mpire1osts+ F5!

What ama>es me is when I see pilots scared of flying with the

autopilot inoperati&e.


1ARboy 1a9ing All &er %he World *oin $ate+ ;ay 755!ocation+ (ertfordshire, Q:.1osts+ 2,

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*W2!!

*oin $ate+ ct 755!ocation+ Q:Age+

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)oger ;iller.


I%[/@

*oin $ate+ Apr 7557ocation+ %he Air apital1osts+ 232

$onBt forget that for many aircraft, the both the ;ach %rim and=aw $amper reside within the Autopilot Daka Clight ontrolomputer or Clight uidance omputer 4 two of which are thenorm on most non4A% III aircraftE. /ome aircraft can notdispatch without at least one =aw $amper operati&e or, if they candispatch, the limiting IA/ essentially pre&ents normal operation./imilar limiting performance can also be true for the lack of ;ach%rim.

31st October 2003, 01:09 #13 (permalink )

1ARboy 1a9ing All &er %he World *oin $ate+ ;ay 755!ocation+ (ertfordshire, Q:.1osts+ 2,

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1osts+

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lawnmowerman

*oin $ate+ ;ar 7552ocation+ cambridge1osts+ <

1aracab....k a bit more info.. %heres one sleepy little midlandsairfield we go to, where theres a public road directly at the end ofthe runway, about 755 m back. 0ot sure what you e9perts wouldsay about hanging around in such areas, but it is a public areaand you get a great &iew and good photos. 0ow my point is theyare going to start these 33Bs operations shortly. I would ha&e

thought 755m in the line of fire was pretty close for a public area?

$$ 4 sorry for being ignorant but whats BbreakawayB power? Atthe end of the runway at start of takeoff does the BtakeoffB powerapply?

8th $rch 2004, 18:41 #8 (permalink )

8;

*oin $ate+ ;ay 755ocation+ %he )oman8mpire1osts+ F5!

anBt help with the speeds for the moment DIBm in a hurryE butthe mass of air e9austed from a C;#ard area i listed is for static take off poweras used for ground running purposes,so in your e9ample it wouldapply from the end of the runwayDpanio keysE .If you ha&e access to the aircraft mantenance manual the figuresand warnings are listed in mm3!455455475! 8ngine ground safetyprecautions.0ote the A;; doesn\t list e9haust &elocities withinthe ha>ard area.)egards $$

9th $rch 2004, 14:39 #10 (permalink )

&er)un Prof0 ,irport Engineer *oin $ate+ ct 7555ocation+ Australia DmostlyE1osts+ 2F-

awnmowerman

o to http+66www.geocities.com6profemery6a&iation.html

$own the page 4 in the A0 chart section 4 is a chart of the 334F55 jet blast at %A:8CC %()Q/%, not breakaway thrust.

%ypical rules are+

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ma9imum wind &elocities which people, objects and buildings inthe &icinity of an aeroplane may be subjected to must not bemore than+DaE passengers and main public areas, where passengers ha&e towalk and people are e9pected to congregate .

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89plains why the &an got trashed. Wonder if the &an was a rental.

9th $rch 2004, 17:46 #11 (permalink )

lawnmowerman *oin $ate+ ;ar 7552ocation+ cambridge1osts+ <

%hank you &ery much for your detailed replies. %hats just what Iwas after.

ooks like I might need some goggles, and stand to one side in

the future'

10th $rch 2004, 00:28 #12 (permalink )

;ark !

*oin $ate+ Aug 7555ocation+ .A. A Q/A forthe time being1osts+ le e9it, the &elocities will be around !2554!#55 ft6secat the hot no>>le and around !555 ft6sec at take4off power Djustbelow locally sonic conditionsE.

Cor the long cowl mi9er no>>le type engines the hot jet rapidlydiffuses with the bypass flow.Curther downstream the e9haust will di&erge at about 3 degrees.I donBt know if this would hold up for 55m, but if it did the jetwould be o&er 5m in diameter, so about 255 times the area atsource and so !6255th the &elocity.I recall a test some time ago for designing an engine test bedwhere a pitot rig was used to measure the blast at about #5mbehind a jet engine at full power. All of a sudden all the sensorsread >ero due to the entire rig complete with se&eral blocks ofconcrete being blown into the ne9t field.(ope this helps.

14th $rch 2004, 07:45 #13 (permalink )

mstram

*oin $ate+ ;ar 755!ocation+ %oronto, nt,anada1osts+ 7!!

;ark !Curther downstream the e9haust will di&erge at about 3degrees.I donBt know if this would hold up for 55m, but if it did the jetwould be o&er 5m in diameter, so about 255 times the area atsource and so !6255th the &elocity.

If, hypothetically the e9haust did J0%J di&erge, what would thecalculation be to determine the distance where the &elocity drops

to >ero ? *ust appro9imately would be interesting enough for me.

IBm guessing that the air density 6 &iscosity would be part of thecalculation and probably the friction o&er the ground. What if weignore the friction o&er the ground ? .. is it just a question of the&elociity, &iscosity, density all part of some kind of formula ?

;ike

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15th $rch 2004, 14:19 #14 (permalink )

;ark !

*oin $ate+ Aug 7555ocation+ .A. A Q/A forthe time being1osts+ le diameters to dissipate the jetfrom a critical no>>le.

15th $rch 2004, 15:32 #15 (permalink )

)anger ne

*oin $ate+ 0o& !---ocation+ ;k. ! desk at present...1osts+ 7

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since the !# kts ma9 applies to the &isualmanoe&ering segment of the approach.

%hanks

26th $rch 2004, 03:09 #2 (permalink )

0one

*oin $ate+ *ul 7555ocation+ West1osts+

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aircraft approach speed is defined as !. times the stall speed inthe landing configuration of aircraft at the ma9 certified landingweight. IBm not sure what the stall speed of the $ash4F is, but theCAA has the approach speed stated in their database as -5 knots.%he at @ limits are -!4]!7! knots and at is !7!4]!2! knots.

8&en if the aircraft approach category was to change from A to @for some reason Dwhile staying aircraft design group IIIE, therewould be no change in the airport standards DCAA %able !4! inA!#56#554!E. It is only mo&ing from at @ to at Dwhilestaying aircraft design group IIIE that means a step up in terms of the runway strip Dthe CAA call this the runway safety areaE. %herunway now has to be less undulating and ha&e flatter gradients.(owe&er at - out of !5 airports, youSd be hard put to pick thedifference. %he !5th airport is probably one of those spectacular$ash4F airports up the side of a mountain or similar.

27th $rch 2004, 13:42 #4 (permalink )

alf#53!h


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authority of the country who licenses the airfield, thus it may beinappropriate to seek a dispensation from your own authority orinspector as they may not ha&e the rele&ant information

Also beware that for procedures designed by %8)1/ DQ/E whilstgenerally gi&ing the same obstacle clearance, the circling and

maneu&ering areas may differ significantlyT e.g. 3, there was a fair degree of confusion on thispoint. %he basic situation here is that, if you canBt meet 1LL therequirements of the nominal category, you must use a highercategory that allows you to meet all the speeds. ircling wascertainly the major issue for many aircraft that are nominally inat. @, so they all had to use at. .

And, before anyone asks, no you canBt use a lower category onthe basis of speeds for actual configurations. I understand thatIA is about to change the basis of the speed categories in thenear future, but it isnBt likely to change the speed requirements inany of the segments.

31st $rch 2004, 13:16 #7 (permalink )

rossunder

,%iator

*oin $ate+ ;ay 755!

Cor a circling approach the $(F can be flown using A% A speedsDwe use circling speed of ma9 !5- knots for precision circling, andthe minimums are determined "4!55 minimums" because they areaircraft specificE. It really doesnBt matter which aircraft you flyT itBsthe speeds you use that matter. n a A% @ approach you must

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ocation+ 0or&eg1osts+ 2#5

stay below the ma9imum of !#:IA/ when reaching minimums.0ote that the ategories with reference to !. s are differentfrom the categories concerning the approach itself. If anapporoach is labelled BA% @ onlyBT any aircraft can fly it, pro&idedtheyBll remain at or below !#:IA/ Dor, say, !5:IA/ for the;A1tE.

1st %&r' 2004, 02:44 #8 (permalink )

@omber (arris

*oin $ate+ $ec !---1osts+ !3F

crossunder. what you say makes a lot of sense. but i would tendto lean towards what BalfB posted. when this is analysed at theBsubsequent board of enquireyB the legal definitions will be whatcounts. i would take adhereing to those as the first and formostrule. i.e. if the !. rule makes an a6c cat b but it can be safelyoperated at cat a speeds....then it is still cat b because thats whatthe definition says. howe&er, what redsnail says rings some loudbells for me too. i think it says somewhere that if a condition e9ist

which will not allow you to keep to speeds...in my e9ample...cat bthen the approach must be done to cat c minima.

apologies if i ha&e misinterpreted what you were saying andanswered the wrong question''....complicated issue

1st %&r' 2004, 08:15 #9 (permalink )

>89pat

PPuNea!oli"


Kuote+

If an apporoach is labelled BA% @ onlyBT any aircraft can fly it,pro&ided theyBll remain at or below !#:IA/ Dor, say, !5:IA/for the ;A1tE.

$efinitely not true and potentially quite a dangerous idea to try tocirculate. It demonstrates a complete ignorance of 1ans ps olume!, if nothing else. It doesnBt matter what speeds any particularaircraft can achieve, if below any of the speeds for the nominalcategory.

I know that the $ash4F, for e9ample, is a &ery fle9ible aeroplane.0o doubt about that.

@ut lets take the e9ample of a &ery fle9ible type of aircraft that isnominally in at . It doesnBt matter if it can maintain !5 :IA/ orbelow, from the CAC to the ;A1t. It also doesnBt matter if it canmaintain !5 :IA/ or below for circling. %his is because thedetermining factor for this aeroplane is the basic !. s at ma9certificated weight.

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%he same sort of consideration applies to all other aircraft in allnominal categories. %hus, getting back to the $ash4F, it is a at @aeroplane, regardless of what aspects of at A it can achie&e.

1st %&r' 2004, 08:46 #10 (permalink )

!7

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*oin $ate+ *un 755!ocation+ 8urope1osts+ 89pat

PPuNea!oli"


;ost countries that IBm aware of require you to tell A%. It isrele&ant to their assessment of the cloud base in clearing you for

the approach. 1ans ps isnBt the only yardstick in operations'

%he post by 1-?0@ is interesting from the point of &iew of thedesign of the procedure. If what was posted is correct, there is nofle9ibility for a higher category, based on the ma9imum speedswithin a specific category.

Cor e9ample, I once had a bit of a dilemna with the C7F because,in theory, it could achie&e at @ in e&erything e9cept circling. %hatmade it at . %hatBs the category thatBs used by this type to this&ery day but, if I understand the post by 1-?0@ correctly, there isone IA4contracting /tate that does not abide by this. I just

hope that the AI1 Dor )egulationsE reflects that.

3rd %&r' 2004, 09:30 #14 (permalink )

ktasF

*oin $ate+ *un 755!ocation+ 01osts+ F3

%hanks for the replies.

!7

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alf#53!h


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the issue offlight outsidea safe areamay alsoarise withincreased

airspeed.

A turn at 75A@ !F5 ktsDat E gi&esa radius ofappro9 !.2nmT thuswith %8)1/this onlygi&es a smallsafety factor

for error,wind, etcTlower bankanglesreduce thismargin.Clying at at$ speed Y75# kts therad of turn is!.F nm at 75A@, whiche9ceeds the

%8)1/ area.%hesechangesapply to1A0/41/ ina similarway, but thesafety area islarger. %husthe aircraftcategoryspeed limit

must berespectedand there isalso aminimumA@ toconsider.

;any of the

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issues in thisthread arepresented inan e9cellentbookletAFro(

Ta#eoff toLanding

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aircraftcannot useall the flapnormallyrequired forlanding 4

thus, ahigherapproachspeed islikely to benecessary.

With ad&ancenotice ofthis, A% canassessweather

conditionsagainst thehigher ;$Aand ad&isethe pilotaccordingly.If theweather isnBtgood enoughfor thathigher ;$A,the pilot hasa bit more

time to planfor analternateapproach, oralternateaerodrome.

alfB71!... Iwas going todownloadthat @usanreport, but

got amessagesaying I needto downloadsome sort ofgraphicrenderingutility.ouldnBt be

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botheredwith that onthis lowspeed, highcost dialupaccess.

Anyway, Iha&e an ideathat the CAAis starting torethink thesi>e of %8)1/circlingareas, so wemay see asignificantenlargementat some

stage, sothat theyBllbe more inline with1ans psareas.

=7

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