186- Ketosis, Carnivore Diet, Macros and Diet Variation ... · And so when you do break down things like protein, fat, and carbohydrate, you can look at those very essentially. Protein

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Episode186:Ketosis,CarnivoreDiet,Macrosand

DietVariationWithDr.AnthonyGustin


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Child:WelcometomyMommy’spodcast.

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Katie:Hello,andwelcometo"TheWellnessMamaPodcast."I'mKatiefromwellnessmama.com.AndthisepisodeisgoingtoanswerallofthequestionsI'vebeengettingfromyouguysabouttheKetodiet.BecauseIamherewithDr.GustinGustin,who'saboard-certifiedsportsphysician,afunctionalmedicinepractitioner,andanoverallfoodandfitnessskepticlikeIam.Hisfocusrecentlyhasshiftedfromprivatepracticetocreatingproductsthatimprovetheaccessibilityofwholefoodnutritionandketosis,withhiscompany'sPerfectKetoandEquip.Andinadditiontopublishinghisownhealthreportsonhiswebsite,hehasdranthonygustin.com,thatwillbelinkedintheshownotes.Andwe'regonnajumpintoeverythingketotoday,soDr.Gustinwelcomeandthanksforbeinghere.Dr.Gustin:Katie,thankyouforhavingme.Katie:LikeIsaid,thisisobviouslyapopulartopicrightnow.Iknowsomanypeople,evenjustneighborsandfriendswhoaretryingouttheketodiet,andit'ssuperpopularrightnow.SoI'dlovetohearfirstandforemostwhydoyouthinkwe'reseeingsuchariseinthepopularityoftheketodiet?Dr.Gustin:It'shotrightnowisn'tit?It'sprettycrazy.Andwe'veseenthatinourbusinesstoo,andjustkindofthemessagewe'retryingtoputoutiswecan'tkeepup,youknow,wepostlikefivetosevenarticlesaweek,peopleseemtowanttoknowmore,andmore,andmore.Ithinkthatoneofthebiggestthingsisthatjustpeoplearegettingresultswithit,andsowheneveryourresults...Ithinksomethinglikethisthatcanbecomekindoftrendworthy.Justlikewhenpaleostartedtohityouknow,five,eightyearsago,yousawalotof


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peopleclimbingtowardsbecauseitwasworkingsowell.Ithinkthatwe'reseeingalotofthesamethinginaketogenicdietaswell,peoplearegettingresultswhetherthatbefromweightloss,frommentalperformance,fromphysicalperformance,fromtreatingchronicdiseases.Thewholespectrumofpeoplearereallygettingalotofawesomeresults,soIthinkthat'skindofwhat'sdrivingitforwardsorapidlyrightnow.Katie:Gotit,Ialsofeellikethereareprobablylike100differentversionsoftheketodietonlinedependingonwhoyouask,andwhopeoplearefollowing.SoI'dloveifwecouldstartwiththeverybasics.Firstofall,whatactuallyisaketodiet?Isitmeasurable?Andthenalsowhatdoesthatlooklikeasfarasthefoodyou'reactuallyeating?BecauseIknowsomepeopletakeittomeanabaconandcheesedietwhichIhavesomeconcernsabout,soI'dlovetohearyourtake.DrAnthony:SomeofthebiggestgripesthatIhavewiththeketogenicdietisthat,youknow,inapaleodietwesetalotofgreatparametersaboutwhattoeat,andinaketodietwekindofsetalotofparametersonhowmuchtoeat,andsopeoplereallyfocusonmacronutrients.Andsotobeinastateofketosis,whichisessentiallyjustusingyourownbodyfatordietaryfatasfuelsourceinsteadofcarbohydrates,youneedtorestrictcarbohydratesfirstofall,andthenmoderatetomediumamountsofprotein,andthenfatisgonnafillintheresttofillinthevoidofenergythatyourbodyneedstofunctionatabasiclevel.Andsofromrestrictingcarbohydrates,alotpeoplestartmeasuringmacronutrients,andwhenpeoplestartmeasuringjustmacronutrients,theykindofforgetaboutthe......Awholefooddietfirst,andthenaketogenicdietsecond.AndsoIthinkthatfoodqualityisvery,veryimportant.AndIthinkthatthemainmistakethatalotpeoplemakeisthattheytrytodoadietlikethisjusttoraisetheirketonelevels.Butjustraisingyourketonelevels,unlessyouhavesomechronicillnesslikeyouknow,maybecancerorseizuresorthingslikethat,theketonelevelsreallydon'tmatterthatmuch.Andsothelevelsofketonesaremeasuredeitherintheurine,orthebreath,ortheblood,thisissayingthatthisishowmanyketonesarefloatingaroundandavailableforuse.Itdoesn'tsayhowmucharebeingusedinyourcells,andthenwhenwestartmeasuringthat,wetrytothinkthatmoreisbetterandthat'snotalwaysthecase.AndsoIthinkthatjustthinkingabout,youknow,fromafundamentallevel,whatisyourgoalfornutrition?Ithinkthatalotofnutritionwhenyoudialitdownintoafterwholefoodsyouknow,whetheritbeaketogenicdietoracarnivorediet,orgluten-free,orvegan,orwhatever,Ithinkthatyou'relookingathowtousenutritionasatooltogetajobdone.Andketosisisjustoneofthosethings,moreketonesdoesn'tnecessarilymeanbetter,andIthinkthatthat'soneofthethingsthatpeopleshouldbeawareofhere.Katie:Doyoufeellikeketoisanotherfaddietatleastthewayit'sdonecurrently,ordoyoufeellikeit'srootedinhistoryandsomethingwe'recomingbackto,kindofliketheideabehindthepaleodiet?Dr.Gustin:That'sagreatquestion.Ithinkthatithasnotbeeninpopularityfromanybodywho'sprettymuchaliverightnowduetoalotofthedemonizationoffat.Youknow40,50,60yearsago,andIthinkthatitisnowgoingtobeacceptedaswemovethistrendforward.Notnecessarilyketoasaname,Idon'tknoworreallyevencareifthatissomethingthatresonatesin10yearsfromnow.WhatIcareaboutisthatpeoplestartembracingfatasahealthycomponentofnutrition.AndsothisissomethingwhereIthinkthatwemissedoutforthelastlikeIsaid40,50,60yearsonfatandit'sanessentialmacronutrient.


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Andsowhenyoudobreakdownthingslikeprotein,fat,andcarbohydrate,youcanlookatthoseveryessentially.Proteinisforsureneeded,fatisforsureneeded,andcarbohydratesarenotneededandifyou'relookingatessentialmacronutrientsforhumanhealthandjustforperformanceandeverythingthatyouneedasahuman.AndsoIthinkthatwhenwerestrictfatforsolongandaddthecarbohydratesin,weseealotoftheproblemswedoseerightnow.Idon'tthinkcarbohydrateareevil,Idon'tthinktheyshouldbeavoidedatallcosts,butIthinkthatforsureminimizingalotofthemandstartingtoincorporatesomehealthyfatbackinthedietisareallygoodmove.AndIthinkthatwe'regonnaseethismassivemacroshiftfromthislow-fatdietthatwe'vebeenfedforthelastfewdecades,backtoamorenormal...whatwe'vehadthroughouthumanhistoryisjustasuperhighfatoratleastmoderatefatdietthatpushesthingsforward.Imeanifyoulookatfat,forexample,makesupalotofourhormones,itmakesupmostnerveinthenervoussystem,itmakesupallcellandcelllining.Solikeitisanessentialthingthatweneedtothriveasahumanbeing.Sohavinganadequateamountissuperimportant.Katie:You'reright,andwesawsuchapolicyforsolongthatdemonizedfat,andthiswascomingoutofevengovernmentalregulations.Mylistenersareprettyeducated,sotheyprobablyalreadyhaveaprettygoodideaofwhythatpolicywe'renowseeingsuchbigproblemswithit.Butforanybodywho'snotasfamiliarwiththat,canyoukindofgiveusthehighlevelofwhat'schangedandwhywenowunderstandthatfatisnottheenemy,andwhytheyusedtothinkitwastheenemy?DrAnthony:Imean,anyonewhowantsadeeperdiveintothis,IwouldrecommendNinaTeicholzbook"TheBigFatSurprise,"shedoesthebestjobofanybodyelsethatI'veseendiggingintoallthedetailsabout,youknow,whywedemonizefatingeneral,howwegotthroughthiswholethingandwherewe'reattoday.Andshe'sdoneagreatworkasfarastryingtogetthestandardsinthegovernmentalrecommendationsforfoodchange,soitisamoderatetohigh-fatdiet.Butreallyagain,ifyoulookatit,itkindofstems,likemostawfulthings,fromonekindofphaseshiftintheindustryofgovernmentrecommendations.AndthiscamefromAncelKeyswhodidastudytryingtoshowthatsaturatedfatcausesheartdiseaseandcholesterolasanenemy,andallthisdifferentstuff.Andsopackagingitupandsayingthatthesethingsarebadforheartdisease,youknow,wehadalotofdifferentthingshappenatthatpoint,thepresidenthadaheartattack,weweretryingtoanswerthatreallyquick.Wewantedananswerasfaraswhattoeat,therewasalotofchangesinthefoodsystem.Andsowekindofhadthisperfectstormforrecommendingalow-fatdiet.Whenthathappened,alotofthingschanged.Andsoifyoulookatthedataaroundincidenceofdiabetes,incidenceofheartdisease,incidenceofobesitysoonandsoforth,allthatspikedessentiallywhenwewenttoalow-fatrecommendation.AndNinadoesareallygreatjobofexplainingyouknow,alltheinformationthatsheputsoutthatgenerally,Americanpopulationdoesareally,reallygoodjobatshiftingtowhatisexpectedfromthemfromthegovernment.Andsowefollowrecommendations,andsowhenthegovernmentsays"Stopeatingfateatlowfat,stopeatingmeat,meatcausescancer,"wedothesethingsacrosstheboard.Thereallybadparthereisthatthesethingsactuallypromotealotofdeficienciesinthedietandalotofproblemsmovingforward.Andsowhat'shappenedisthatwe'venowgoneabunchofdecadeswithalotofthesehealthproblemsloomingandalotofquestionsasfarashowtoreallysolvethis,andwhatisgoingonwithhumanhealth.Itendtothinkthatusuallycomesbacktonutrition,andsoalotofpeoplewhoaresmarter


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thanme,whoaredoingalotofresearchonthishaveshownthatlimitingfatandincreasingcarbohydratesisthecruxofsomeoftheseproblemsyouknow.Sowe'relookingatheartdisease,lookingatinflammation,diabetes,autoimmunity,obesity,alotofthesearetiedbacktooverconsumptionofsimplecarbohydrates,notgettingenoughfat.Obviously,areallyinflammatorydietisnotgreatsoagaingoingbacktowhatIwassayingearlierabouthavingrealfoodissuperimportant.AndGaryTaube'sisanotheronewhodoesalotofworkinthis,andhekindofasneatasachampionforfat,he'skindoftheguywhoistalkingaboutwhatisbadwithcarbohydrate.Andsotheykindofpaintedacomplimentarypicturetooneanother.But,it'sacrazythingandthefact,likeIsaid,anyonealivetodayyouknow,justacceptsthatfat...youknow,ifyou'reovertheageof20,25isunhealthy,youknow,meatisunhealthy.Andanyoneolderthan50,60,70,orbeyondthat,anyone,youknow,whowouldhavebeen100plustodaywouldthinkthat'sinsane.Andthatyouknow,cookingwithanimalfatandeatinganimalproductsisjustanormaldayandanecessityasfarasnutritiongoes.Andsowe'vecomealongwayinthelast30,40,50years,andIthinkthatswitchingitoverandseeingmagazineslike"Time"gofromdemonizingfattonowacceptingit.And,Imean,it'safascinatingthing,howfastthingscanswitchoverthecourseofhumanhistoryandkindofwherewe'reatnow,kindofacceptingthesethingsasancestralnormsandgettingthembackintoourdietnow.Katie:Andsomeoftheweirdthingsthatcamewithit,likewheneverybodygotridofbutterandadoptedmargarinewhichisthischemicallycreated,essentiallyplasticizedfatthatthebodyhasnoideawhattodowith,insteadofbutteroranimalfatforcooking,orevenOliveoil.Therearesomanybetteroptionsandthatwasathingthatstuckaroundforalongtime,andIfeelpeoplearenowstartingtogetthatthere'saproblemwithit.ButyouIfeellikeyou'reinasensekindofarareunicornbecauseyou'reaboard-certifiedphysician,butyoualsounderstandfunctionalmedicine,andyoualsounderstandnutrition.Sojusttomakesurewe'reclear,fromwhatyou'resayingasadoctor,andassomeonewhounderstandsnutrition,thatfatdoesnotcausecardiovasculardiseases,isthatyourunderstanding?Dr.Gustin:There'sjustnoevidencethatpointstothat,andusuallywithpeoplethatI'veseen...andofcourseisaverymulti-factorialthing.That,one...againthebiggestthingthatIseeisthatpeoplewhentheyeatrealfoodtheynormalizealotofstuff.Butyouknow,lowfatversushighfat,there'snotevenacomparison.Peoplewholimitfatyouknow,they'veshownusinresearchthatthingsdonotgowellforpeoplewholimitfatoverthelongterm.And,itissomethingthatdemonizingthe...likeIdon'tthinkthateverybodyneedstobeonaketogenicdiet.Ithinkit'sausefultoollikeIwasmentioningbefore.ButIthinkthat,youknow,eliminatingitentirelyfromthedietisareallybadmove.Katie:Exactly.SoIwannagetbacktoyouinminutetotheketodietandgodeeperonthat.Butfirst,becauseyoumentionedproteinandyoumentionedthecarnivorediet,Ihavetogetyourtakeonthis.BecauseIknowthisisanotheronethat'scomeonthescenethat'sgettingalotmorepopular,andI'mgettingquestionsabout.Andmybackgroundinnutritionandalsojustbeingawoman,IdefinitelyhavesomeconcernswhenIhearofwomendoingacarnivorediet,butI'mreallycurious,yourtakeonit,andjustanyadviceyouhavethere.


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Dr.Gustin:IwasconcernedaboutitforawhiletoowhenIwaslookingintoit,andagain,justlikewithaketogenicdiet,alotofpeopleweregettingresultswithit.Andsowhenyoulookatpositiveanecdotes,overwhelmingamountofthemsayingthat"Ketodidn'tworkforme,paleodidn'tworkforme,youknow,autoimmunedietdidn'tworkforme.Butthis,thecarnivoredietworksformeaboveallelse."AndIjustsawcroppingupoverandoverandoveragain,Iwasalittleskeptical,asItrytobewhenitcomestothat.Idon'tliketodenyorrecommendanythingwithoutdoingitmyself,soIdidfiveandahalfweeksofacarnivoredietmyself,justtoseehowitwas.Andlookedintoitandresearchedit,andkindofdugreally,reallydeepintothetopic.AndIwasshockedtofindthattherewasn'treallyanythingthatkindofcontraindicatedtheneedforvegetablesorthelimitsonmeat.AndIfeltprettyincrediblewhenIdidmyexperiment.NowIdon'tthinkthat...andIdon'twanttosaythatvegetablesshouldbeshunnedentirely.Idon'tthinkthat...youknow,forsomepeople,itmightmakesenseandIthinkthere'sseveralreasonswhy...thenormalperson,thatisnotagreatidea.Wecandigintothatalittlebitfurtherifyouwant.ButI'mcuriousactuallyasfaraswhyyouthinkforwomeningeneralorjustwhatyourtakeisandwhyitwouldnotbebeneficial.IwannapokeholesinitsoIjustwannadiscussyouknow,wherepeoplearecomingfromandwhyyouthinkthat.Katie:Absolutely,forme,justmainlycomingfromthe...Ireadalotofresearchandhavereallydelvedintothemicrobiomelately,andIhaveconcernswheneverany...likeyoumentioned,there'snotaneedforcarbohydratesnecessarily,butthereisaneedforbiodiversityinthegut.Anddifferentbacteriainthegutreactdifferentlytobacteriaandprebioticfiberthatcomesin.Somyconcernwiththecarnivoredietisyouareessentiallyremovingalloftheprebioticfiberthatcouldpotentiallycomein.AndIwonderaboutlong-termeffects,ifwe'regonnaseereductioninthediversityinthegut,orpotentiallylikechangesinenzymesorthingsthatweneedfordigestion.Isthatsomethingthatyou'verunintoatallorthatyouwouldbeconcernedabout?Dr.Gustin:Yeah,soIsharealotwithDr.MichaelRuscioonthistopic,whoisoneofmygo-toguysaboutguthealth,andImeanwesharealotaboutguthealthingeneral.Sogutproblems,whathappensisgenerallythetreatmentprotocolistoremoveallfiber,notaddmorefiberin.Andsothat'soneofthereasonswhyIthinkshorttermcarnivoredietworkssowellforpeopleisthatit'sessentiallyagutresetprogram.Andsoyou'reremovingallfiber,andyou'recorrectingalotofimbalancesofthegrowthofbacteriathatyouhaveinyourgut.AndsoIthinkalotofpeople...wehavetheseidealsthatbiodiversityinthegutisgoodandallthesedifferentthings,butwereallydonotknowanythingaboutthegutwherewe'reatrightnow.We'restillnamingspeciesandwe'restillinaphasewherewejustgenerallydon'tknowthatmuch.Weknowsomestuffmightbegood,wedon'tknowinwhatproportion,wedon'tknowforwhatpopulation.Andsothere'ssomethingwhereIthinkthatweputthecartaheadofthehorse,andwedon'treallyknowwhatwe'retalkingaboutyet.Andthisis...youknow,Dr.Ruscioisthesameway,heknowshowtodealwithwhathesees,he'sagainthepersonIthinkhasreadthemostresearchaboutthis.AndIthinkhe'shadabookcomeupthatisphenomenaldealingwiththisstuff.And,Ithinkthatfibergenerally...andthismightbecontroversial,butit'salittleoverrated.AndIthinkthatyouactuallycangetalotofstufffromanimalparts,sothisiscalledproteoglycansincartilageandskinthatyourbodycanactuallyuseasprebioticandprobioticfiber.Andsothat'ssomething


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toothatcanbeincorporatedtoseewhatthemicrobiome...howithandlesit.I'vejustseensomanyreportspeoplelongterm2,3,5,10yearsonthistypeofdietclearupdigestiveproblems,clearupanykindofgutproblems.Andactually,thriveonthislongterm.That,youknow,it'snotthatIthinkthatagainit's100%necessaryitjust...youhavetoaskaquestionofisfiberreallynecessarytothedegreethatwethinkitis.Anddowereallyknowenoughaboutthegutmicrobiometosay,youknow,plantsaretheonlywaystogetthistypeoffiber,andtheonlywaytobalanceagutmicrobiome?Imean,we'vestudiedandthewaywegettheconclusionthat,youknow,morediversityisgoodorbetterisfrompeoplegenerallyeatingastandardAmericandietandnotreallyevenpaleodietletaloneketogenicdietorcarnivorediet.Sogutmicrobiomeforsomebodywhoeatsonlymeat,maybetheyneedlessbecausealotofthemeatactuallygetsabsorbedinthesmallintestine,andyouhavenoneedforitinalargeintestineanymore.Andso,therearealotofstudiesshowingthatyouneedmicrobiomediversityforregulationofmood,andregulationofhunger,andallthesehormonesandstufflikethat.ButImeanthemostimportantthingisthatyouhavehighmucosalintegrityandhighamountsofbacteriaontopofthatmucosainthegut.AndIthinkwhathappensislotsofpeopleovereatfibertheyactually...youknow,withinflammatoryfoodsespeciallyisthattheystartbreakingdownthatmucosallayerandgettingintothegapliningoftheactualgutandbreakingthatdown.Andmorethingsgetinyourbloodstreamthanneedtobe.SoImeanIthinkit'samuchbiggerstorythanjustyouknow,eatmorefiber,morefiberequalsmoregutbacteria,andmoregutbacteriaequalsmorehealth.AndsoIthinkit'sawaymorecomplicatedpicturethanwehavetopaint,andIthinkthatwe'renotevenclosetoansweringthatquestionyet.Soagain,Iremainskeptical,Idon'treallyknowtheanswer,Idon'tthinkanybodyhasthedatatoknowtheanswer.ButIthinkwe'rereallygettingaheadofourselvesasfarasguthealthgoes.Katie:Interesting,it'sagreatpointandIthinkyou'rerightwe'reonlystartingtobarelytouchthetipoftheicebergwhenitcomestoguthealth,andI'mreallyexcitedforwhatthenextfewdecadeshopefullywillholdforresearch.ButIamcurious...soasafollowuptothat,a),whataboutpeoplewhodothisforanextendedperiodoftimeandthendoeventuallyreintroducevegetables,doyouthinktheycouldpotentiallylosetheabilitytodigestthatcorrectly?Andalso,ItotallyagreewithyouasfarasIdon'tthinkweneedrefinedcarbohydratesandcertainlynotsugar,andthatmostofthesethingsareoverconsumed.Butitseemslikeevenlookingattheketodietorthepaleodietespecially,thereisastronghistoricalprevalenceofpeopleeatingvegetablesusuallygreenvegetablesinsmallamounts,andlikealargediversityofthat,bothforthemicronutrientsandthenobviouslythatisatypeoffiberaswell.SoI'mcuriousyourtakeonthosebecauselikeyousaid,it'sacontroversialtopicbutI'mexcitedtogodeeponthis.Dr.Gustin:Canyoubreakthosequestionsdownforme,justkindofonebyonesothatwecantacklethem?Katie:Yes,sothefirstonelet'sjusttackle,doyouthinksomeonewho'sdonethecarnivoredietforinstancelongterm,willhavetroublereintroducingvegetablesatsomepointiftheydecideto?Dr.Gustin:Sojustlikewithanytypeofnutrition,ifyoueliminatesomethingentirely...whichagain,I'mnot


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advocatingfor,andIdon'tsaythatthisisthebestwaytogoaboutnutrition.Ithinkagain,carnivoredietmightbeatoolforsomepeopleforsomereasons,andsothat'swhyIthinkitmaybehelpful.I'mnotsayingthateverybodyshouldbedoingthis,butevenwhenyouswitchtoketogenicdietforthefirsttime,youhavecertainreceptorsinyourcellsthatusefatsinacertainwayandcanshowthemintomitochondriathathavebasicallybeenunusedforyourentirelife,thatstartsgettingturnedon,thatmighttakefourtoeightweekstostartusingketonesasenergy.Andso,thesamethinggoeswithallfoods.So,ifyoueliminatecarbohydratesentirelyandyoueliminateallfiberentirely,evenifyoueliminatemeatentirely...soifyoueliminatemeatforalongperiodoftime,yourbodystopsproducingcertainacidsinyourstomachthathelpbreakdownthemeat.Andso,yourbodydoesn'twannawasteenergydealingwithstuffthatitdoesn'tdealwith.Andsoifyoudothat,youmighthaveatransitionperiodaddingstuffbackin,youmightneedtotakeitalittleslow.Butit'slikeyourbodylosestheabilitylong-termorforevertobeabletoprocessthesefoodsandusethemasanenergysource.Yourbodyisveryadaptableandit'snotlikeitsgoingtojustcompletelyforgetandhaveamnesiapermanentlyabouthowtohandlecertainfoods.SoIdon'tthinkthatthisisarelevantconcern.Ithinkwithanythingwhenyougoextreme,yourbodyadaptstoextreme,andithastothenadapttomoderationoveralongperiodtimeaswell.AndIthinkthatyouseethisanenergysystem,youseethisinfoodchoices,youseethisacrosstheboard.Soit'snotsomethingI'mworriedabout.Canithappen?Yes,butIthinkthatit'slessofaconcernthanpeoplemakeitouttobe.Katie:Interesting,definitely,gotit,andIknowformeandmysideofresearchI'vecomearoundespeciallyinthelastcoupleofyearstheideathatthere'sobviouslysomanydifferentdietaryideasandsystemspeopleuse.Andtosomedegree,Iwonderiflikewhatifwe'reallrightatleastalittlebit,likewhatifallofthesethingshavetheirtimeandtheirplace,butit'sfindingoutforallofusthethingthatactuallyisgoingtoworkforus.Andlikeyousaid,there'sgeneticcomponents,there'spersonalizationhere,sonoonerecommendationisgonnaworkforeveryone.Butbacktotheearlierpointonvegetables,wedoknowjustanthropologicallythereisareallylonghistoryofhumanseatinggreensordifferentkindsofvegetablesthatwerefoundinnatureandeasytoforage.SoI'mcurious,yourtakeonthosewithintheparadigmofaketodietorapaleodiet?Dr.Gustin:Oh,andthisis...again,soyourquestionofvariance,Ithinkyouaskedlittlebitaboutthataswell.Like,wehadalotofvariance,whywouldweskiponthat?Itotallyagreewiththatpoint,Ithinkthatalotofhumannutritionandjusthumanlifeingeneral,peoplehavebecomehealthierwithvariance.Andsoifanybodyiscuriousmoreaboutthissubject,readNassim'sTaleb"Antifragile"tokindofdivereallydeepintothebookaboutrandomness.ButIthinkthatincorporatingrandomnessisthemostimportantthing,andsothat'swhyyouknow,whenpeoplelookatfasting,forexample,intermittentfastingeverysingledayforeightyears,itmightnotbeagoodidea,especiallyforwomen.Iftheylookatbeingveganonlyfor10years,probablynotgreat,iftheylookatbeingacarnivoreforalong-term,maybewe'llfindthisaswell.Idon'tthinkthathumanseverhadatimewheretheywereabletohavethesamenutritiondayinanddayoutforyears,andyears,andyearsatatime.Ithinkthatmixingitupisareallygoodthing,Andthenthatcomestofasting,thatcomestofoodchoice,thatbecomesthemacronutrientratio,thatcomestometabolicflexibility.Thewholespectrum,andIthinkthatthatincludeshavingmeatbutalsohavingvegetablesaswell.


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Andsowhenwelookatkindofwhatvegetablesareandhowtheyprovidenutritiontothebody,it'slessthatvegetablesandplantsingeneral,providemicronutritionorvitaminsandminerals.Meathandsdown,ifyoulookatanykindofnutritionchartwinsthathandsdown,whetherthatbeorganmeatsisobviouslyatthetopthatspectrum,andthenkindofsecondtothatisjustanimalmeat,andthenwaybelowthatarespicesandherbs,andbelowthatarevegetablesforexample.However,whattheydoprovidethatmeatdoesnotisalotofhermeticstressors.Andsoforinstance,everybodyknowslikejusttogiveanexample,turmeric,greatanti-inflammatory,it'sbecauseturmericisalittlebitofastresstothebody,sothebodyhastoreacttothatinincreasingalotofimmunesystemreaction.Sothatwayyourbodyyouknow,ifitcomesintomoreturmericlater,itdoesnotbecomeoverwhelmedbyit.Andsothesamethingwithit,ifyougooutanddoabunchofsquatsandyoubecomesoreonit,that'sastressor,you'renotaddingtoyourbody.Yourbodyfreaksout,itdoesnotwanttohavethatstressagain,soitmakesyoustronger.Plantsworkalotinthesameway,andthat'swhyIdon'tthinkthatanybodyremovingplantshasitfiguredouttotally.That'slikesayingthat,youknow,workoutmakemesore,andIcangetovertrainedbyrunningeightmarathonsaday,therefore,I'mnevergonnamoveagain.Westillwantalotofstressinmovement,westillwantyourbodytomove,westillwantalotofthatbaseline.Andthatvegetablesandplants,ingeneral,providealotofthesamething.Andsoifyoulookatbookslike,youknow,"PlantParadox,"and,like,peopletalkingaboutplanttoxinsandallthisstuff.Again,wedon'twannaputthatinabucketandgosoextremetosaythatyoushouldneverhavethatstuff,weshouldlookatitandsayokay,whatistheutilityofthat.AndIthinkthatjustlikeworkingout,havingastressorforitandadaptingtoitisareally,reallygoodthing.Doesitmakessensetoeat15saladsaday?Probablynot.Ifwe'regettingthosestressorsonacellularleveloverandoverandoveragain,probablynotagreatidea.DoIthinkitwouldbegoodtoeliminateentirelyoverthelongterm?Idonotthinkso,Ithinkthatwhatyoumentionedaboutvariabilityandrandomnessis100%howhumanshaveprobablyadaptedoverthelastcouplemillionyears,andprobablyhowtheyshouldbeapproachingnutritionforthenextcouplemillionyears.Ifthatmakesanysense,itwaskindofalongexample.Katie:That'ssuchagoodexplanationandIthinkyou'resoright.Tome,whatbothhistoryandcurrentscientificdatareallybackupistheideathatwedoneed,likeyousaid,atonofvariationanddifferentstressorsatdifferenttimes.Andifyouwannalookatjusthistoryalone,peopledidn'talwayshavetheabilitytoeatallthetime,sosometimestheyhadtofastbydefault.Theycertainlyweren'teatingstrawberriesinthemiddleofwinter,and,youknow,theyweren'teatingnecessarilypotatoesinthemiddleofsummer,theyonlycouldeatwhatwasavailableascertaintimes.Andnowwedohavecompleteavailabilityofeveryfoodandeverymacronutrientatalltimes,butthatisn'twhatwe'vehistoricallyhadtheabilitytodo.SoI'mcurious,sincewetouchedonalittlebitandyoumentionedintermittentfasting,I'dlovetogetyourtakeonfastingbothintermittentfastingandthenwaterfastingandsomeoftheothertypesofmoreextremefasting?Dr.Gustin:Thisisanotherthingthatpeopledon'trealizethatfastingisastress,andso,ifyou'resomebodywhogoestoworkandyou'rerunningatthedoor,andyou'regrabbinglunch,andmaybenoteatingthatdayandyou'restressedaboutbills,andyourkidsareyellingatyou,andallthisstuff.AndthenyouruntothegymafterwardsanddoastressfulCrossFitworkout,andthenrushhome,andhavenotimebeforeyougotobed,


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youshouldprobablynotbedoingfasting.AndIdon'tthinkanybodytalksaboutthis,Ithinkthatminimizingallostaticstressloadistheoverallstresscomponentthatahumanhastodealwith.Ifyourotherstressunitsarehigh,Ithinkitisavery,verygoodidea.Andsoforexample,forme,verypersonally,beginningoftheyear,Imovedfromonecitytosplittimebetweentwo.Ibasically...myrolesandmycompanyarechangingrapidly,thecompanywasgrowinglikecrazy,Iwashiringstaff,Ihadalotofpersonalthingsgoingon.Mylevelofstresswasinsanelyhigh.Iwasstilltryingtomaxitoutdoingcrazyworkouts,andfasting,allsortofstuffbecauseIthoughtitwouldgivemeallthisedges.WhenIeliminatedfastingIjustatelikeanormalhumanbeingandatethreetimesaday,Iminimizedmyworkouts,andIstarteddoingmoregymnasticstuffinsteadofwiththehardintensestrengthtrainingworkouts,Ifeltincredible.IfeltlikeIadaptedextremelyquicktomyenvironmentwhether...ifIwastryingtopushthestresslevelonthestuff,onandonandon,Ithinkthatitwouldhavebeenarough,roughyearforme,andIprobablywon'tbeabletohavethisconversationrightnow.SoIthinkthatlookingatfastingisastress,andifyoucanhandlethat,andyoufeellikeyou'reatkindofagoodbaselinelevelofnutritionandhealth,okay,nowwecantalkaboutaddingfastingin.Iwannagetthatoutofthewaywherepeopledonotunderstandthat,youknow,theymaybeeatinglikecrapandtheydon'treallyhave,youknow,anysleepingcontrol,anymeditationgoingon,nostressmanagementgoingon,andtheystartaddinginfasting.Ijustdon'tthinkit'sagoodtooltouseatthatpointintime.However,ifyouhaveallthatstuffdialedin,Ithinkitcanbeaneffectivetoolforalotofreasons.Ifeelgenerally...andwhyIdoitisthat...sothewayIapproachintermittentfastingisIjustgenerallydonoteatwhenI'mnothungry,andIeatwhenI'mhungry.BecauseI'monaketogenicdiet,thatlookslikeonetotwomealsadaygenerally.AndsothenIjust...ifIwakeupandI'mnothungry,maybeIhadareallyfattydinnerthenightbefore,IjustdonoteatuntilI'mhungry.AlotofthattimeisextendedbecauseIworkreallyintensely,andIgetkindofintothezone,andjustkindofforgettoeat,whichisasideeffectofaketogenicdietaswell.That'showIapproachitgenerally.Asfarasextendedfasts,Itrytogetatleasttwotothreefive-to-sevendayfastingperyear.There'stoomuchevidenceouttheresuggestingthebenefitsoflong-termfastsregardingclearanceofoldcells,increaseinmitochondriabiogenesis.Just,youknow,resettinghormones,allthisdifferentstuff.Andthedownsidetomeisnothing,thedownsideisyoudon'thavemouthpleasureforfivetosevendays.Youjustmissoutonfoodforfivetosevendays.IfIhadevenpotentialbenefitslong-termfromadownsideofessentiallynothing,I'mgonnatakethatriskacoupletimesayearandnotflinchatit.I'vedoneitafewtimesnowit'sreallynotthatbigofadealforme,andsothat'swhyItrytosneakthatin.Whenwelookatintermittentfasting,whichisgenerallypeopleyouknow,eatlessinonedayandthentheyeatlessthenextday,youjustdon'tgetthesameamountofbenefitsifyouweretorestrictfastingforalongperiodtime.AndsoIliketothinkaboutitinsteadofintermittentfastingandfasting,Iliketothinkaboutitastime-restrictedfeedingoreating,versusfasting.SofastingIthinkislongerterm,weactuallystartkickingonautophagyandyou'relookingatmaybeanextended2,3,4,5,7dayfastratherthanintermittentfasting,whichIthinkshouldbejusttime-restrictedeating,ortimerestrictedfeeding.Whichalotofgreatpeoplearedoingalotofresearchon.


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There'sstillalotofbenefitsthere,butIdon'tthinkit'sthesamethingasactualfastingoveralongperiodoftime.Andthere'ssomethingtoowheremaybeIcanrantaboutfastingforalongperiodtimebecauseIgetsomanyquestionsaboutit.Butoneoftheotherlargerissuesthatpeopleaskis,"Okay,wellwhatbreaksmyfast?Well,what'sbreakingmyfast?CanIhavethis,canIhavethat,canIhavethat?"Fastingisnoteating,andifyoueatanything,thenyouarebreakingthatfast.Like,suretherearesomewildcardsinitlike,youcanhavenon-caloricthingslikecoffeeandtea.There'ssomeevidenceifyou'reusingfasting,forexample...Ijusttraveltimezonesabunch,ifIwantedtokindofresetmybodywithcircadianrhythmfastthenIwoulddothat,andIwouldnothaveanythingnomatterwhatitis,andIwouldjustdowateronly.Butasfarasbreakingafastwithcoffeeorteaoranythingnon-caloric,notabigdeal.Ifyou'regonnauseexogenousketones,againIthinknotabigdealbecauseifyouarealreadyinafast,you'regonnabeusingthatasanenergysourceanyway,andit'sabio-identicalsourceaswhatyou'regonnabegettingfromyourfatcells.AndsoIdon'tthinkthat'sanissuebutprettymuchanythingelse.Ifyou'reoverlike30to50caloriesinanhourinadaythenIdon'tthinkthatthat'sfasting.Andthat'ssomethingwhereIthinkpeoplearegettingreallyconfusedbecausetheyseeyouknow,Bulletproofcoffeeoverhere,ketogenicthisorthat,andfatstillincreasesinsulin.Fatisamacronutrient,andyourbodyhastometabolizeit,anditshiftsalotofthedifferenthungersignalsonandoff.AndsoIthinkthatifyou'rehavingabigfatbombandhavingafatcoffeeandallthestuffthatthatisjustnotfasting.AndsoIthinkthatifit'sanon-caloricthingorexogenousketonesyoucanbucketitoverononesideandsayokay,Icontinuetofast.IthinktheothersideIwouldsaythatjustdon'teatorconsumeanythingelsebesideswateroragainnon-caloricbeverages.SomaybeIkindoftookthatofftangent,butthat'skindofmy10,000-footviewonfasting.Katie:I'mrighttherewithyou.MyhusbandandIdoafiveorsevendayfastprettymucheveryquarter.Justlikeyousaid,theresearchissostrongandundeniable,pluspeoplehavedonethishistorically.Everymajorreligionhasfastinginsomeway,andpeoplejustcouldn'teatsometimes.Andit'sreallyfascinatingwhattheresearchisshowing,andlikeyousaid,there'sverylittledownsideunlessyouhaveobviouslyamedicalconditionthatwouldpreventitortalktoyourdoctor,pregnantwomenshouldnotfast,thelogicalthingslikethat.Whataboutfastingmimickingdiet?Becausethesehavecomeonthescene.IknowDr.ValterLongotalksaboutthis.Andhe'sincrediblysmartIhavealotofrespectforhiswork,butIalsohavedoubtsaboutfastingmimickingdietsareactuallyaseffectiveasfasting.JustbecauseI'mwithyou,ifI'mfasting,it'swater,ifI'mtime-restrictedeating,Imightdrinkblackcoffeeonceinawhile,butifI'mpurefasting,it'sjustwaterforme.SoI'mcurioushaveyourunintoanyresearchonfastingmimickingdietsandhowthosework?Dr.Gustin:ThewholereasonValterisdoingthatstuffistoincreasemaintenanceincompliancewithfastingingeneral.AndIthinkthatthebiggestthingyoucandotoincreasecompliancewithfastingistogetsomebodyinaketogenicstatebeforetheystartfasting.I'vedonefastsbeforewhereIwentfromeatingevenmoderatetolowcarbohydrateintofasting,anditwasmiserable.I'mtalkinglikeIwasrollingaroundonthefloorcrying,closetoatleast,afteradayortwo.However,whenIamindeepketosisandI'minthatforlikeprobablyroughlyaweekbeforehand,it'sreallynotthatbigofadealbecauseyourbodyissousedtousingyourownbodyfatforfuel.AndsoIthinkthatjustlookingatthatandsayingokay,whyarewedoingfastingmimickingdietsinthefirst


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place?Ifit'stoincreasecompliance,wellarethereanyotherwaystogetthere?AndIthinkthatusingaketogenicdietisareally,reallygoodtooltodothat.AndsothenIthinkthatyoulookatagaintheothersideofthecoin,likewellwhyarewedoingafastmimicdiet?There'snoresearchthatsayseatingalittlebitoffoodisbetterthaneatingnofoodwhenitcomestofasting,likewehavenoevidencethatsaysthat.IalsoI'mnotahugefanofhismacro-nutrientratio,andingeneral,hiscompositionofhisNewLongorwhateverit'scalled,histrademarkerpatented.Aformulaofbarsandstufflikethat,it'sjust,againnotrealfood.Soifyou'regonnaeat500,to700caloriesoffoodwhichisthefastingmimickingdiet,takeastepbackwhenpeopledon't...thatmightnotknowwhatitis,it'sjust,youknow,eatingonly500to700caloriesoffood,andhehasaveryspecialratiothathe'sputoutasfarasmicronutrients,hesellsproductsbaseduponwhathethinksthatratiois.AndI'veworkedpeoplewhohavedonekindofmodifiedfastbefore,I'vedonemodifiedfastbefore,andIwouldnotrecommendnotbecauseit'snotreallyaketogenicratio.Again,goingtoafastwithoutbeinginketosisismiserablesowhywouldyougothroughafastnotbeinginketosis,itdoesn'tmakesensetome.AndIthinkthatifyou'regonnadoamodifiedfastatall,Ithinkitwouldbeaprotein-sparingmodifyingfast,whereyoubasicallyonlyeatingleanproteinandonlygettingthatasamacronutrient,astosavealotofleanbodymass.Justanecdotallyagain,thisisnequalsone,soalotofpeoplethinkthatisahardandfastrule,butforme,I'vetriedfastingyouknowanddonetheexperimentsmyselfwhereI'vedoneawaterfast,andI'vedonekindofaprotein-sparingmodifiedfast,andI'vedoneamodifiedfastwhereIeatkindofwhateverIwant.Andyouknow,eatlikesmallsalads,smallavocadoetc.,500,700caloriesaday.Onthewaterfastandtheprotein-sparingmodifiedfast,myleanbodymassstayedthesameoreitherwentupafterafast.Andagain,you'regonnaaskaquestionlikewhyisthatthecase,youneedfood.Well,yourbody,again,it'sastresstoyourbody,soyourbodysaysokay,wegottastarteatingourownprotein,wehavetostarteatingourownleanbodymass,wedonotwannadothateveragain.Solet'smakeitmoreresilientandsoyouneedstart...youkindofhaveaproteinnegativebalanceandsowhenyourbodyeatsprotein,youstartmovingyourbodyincertainways,yousendcertainhormonestobuildupmoremusclemass.WhenIwaseatingkindofageneralmodifiedfastwhereIwasn'tdoinghighprotein,IwasjustdoingkindofwhateveralmostclosetowhatValterhasshowed,Ihadactuallystartedgettingalossinleanbodymass.Andsothat'ssomethingthatmepersonally,Iwantedtopreservemyleanbodymassasmuchashumanlypossible.AndIhavealotofthoughtsontheconceptofthemacronutrientratios,andthetimingandallthat.AndsoIwouldsaytry...ifyou'rehesitantontryingafastbecauseyoumaythinkthatyourcompliancewouldbelow,Iwoulddotwothings.First,Iwouldstartwithjusttryingaprotein-sparingmodifiedfast,soeatingthesame,youknow,500to700caloriesofjustproteinonlyforacoupledayssoyougettheidea.Ifyou'vedoneketogenicbeforeandyouwannadothat,Iwouldsayswitchintothat,andthentrydoingawaterfastforoneortwodaysisoneofthesethingsthat'sveryreversible.Soifyouwanttoeatandyou'rehungryandyoufeellikecrap,thenjustdoit.Andsoyoucanenditatanytime,There'sverylowriskof...youknow,it'snotlikeonedayyou'llbewalkingaroundfeelinggreat,andthenthenextsecondbecauseyou'refastingyou'regonnadroptothefloor.You'regonnahaveatransitionperiodandyourbody'sgonnarealize,okaythisisnotworkingforme,andlet'sswitchitover.Andso,IthinkthathehasalotofgoodresearchbutIthinkthat,youknow,ifhisresearchwerecontrolledagainstketogenicdietfirst,andthenawaterfast,oraprotein-sparingmodifiedfast,thatwemightseesome


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eithersameorbetterresults.Butagain,that'sjustmyhypothesisatmyend.Katie:Interesting,andIthinkwe'regonnaseemoreresearchonthistoo.Andfrommyownpersonalanecdotalside,I'veseenthesamething,ItestlabsandrunlabsallthetimejusttogaugetheeffectofthingsItry.Andwithwaterfasting,allofmylabshaveimproved,didnotloseleanbodymass.AndIwillsayatleastfrommyexperience,thefirsttimeseemstobethemostdifficultevenifyouareusedtogettinginandoutofketosis,butitseemstogeteasierthemoreyourbodydoesit,likeanything,thebodygetsmoreusedtoit.Andnowifwewaterfast,I'minprettydeepketosisforsurebythesecondday.SoevenifI'mnotcomingfromaketodietaheadoftime,andI'mtestinglikebloodlevelsandbreathacetone.Butthat'sreallyinterestingandyoumentionedmacrosacoupletimes,soI'dlovetogetyourtakeonthat.Becausethat'ssomethingthatseemstogohandinhandwithsomeofthesedifferentdiets,especiallytheketodietrightnow.SoI'mcuriousdoyouthinkthere'sanymerittothat?Andaretherecertainmacrosthatyoutypicallytrytohit?Dr.Gustin:IdonottrackmacrosandIneverreallyhave,andthat'ssomethingthatItrieditonce,itdidn'treallygetmetomygoalfaster,soIjuststoppeddoingit.Ithinkthatwithaketogenicdiet,peopletendtoundereatprotein,Ithinkthatisoneofthebiggestthingsthatiskindofamisconceptionaboutaketogenicdiet.Isthatshouldbeverylowincarbohydrate,lowinproteinandveryhighinfat.AndIjustdon'tthinkthat'sthecase.You'rejusttakingalotofnutrientdensefoodawayfromyourplateifyou'redoingthat,andIthinkthatyoucanhavealotofproblems.Ithinkalotoftimeswomenwhentheyhaveproblemswiththeketogenicdietespecially,theyhaveplateaued,theyhaveweightgain,theyhavehairloss,theyhavethyroidproblems,Ithinkisfrom,one,undereatingand,two,undereatingprotein.AndsoIthinkthatthewaytolookatit...andLuisVillasenor,RobbWolf,alotoftheseguysaredoingreallygoodworkinthiswhereyoushouldlookatitasproteinisgoal.SoIthinkthatpeople...youknow,againthisisallfromLuis,but0.8gramsperpoundofleanbodymassforproteinisaminimum.Andsoyoushouldnotgobelowthat,andpeoplegobelowthat,peoplearegoinglike0.2,to0.4gramsforleanpoundofbodymass.AndIInstagrammessageallthetimeandsomepeoplearemessagingmeandsayingthat"I'mgoingover23gramsofproteintoday,isthatokay?"Yes,it'sokayandyoushouldprobablyquadruplethatamount.Andsothat'ssomethingthat,Ithink,hittingasagoal,andthen,two,eliminatingcarbohydrates.Andsoaslongasyoujustdon'teatcarbohydrates,Imean...ifyoudon'tknowcarbohydrate-containingfoodthenjusttrackyourfoodforawhileandyoucansee,youknow,maybeyou'renotusedtoit.Andyouknow,yourealizeanappleoranavocadoorwhateverismoreincarbsthanyourealize,sojusttrackthemforawhiletosee.Andthenafterthataddinginfatas...towheneveryou'refullessentially.Ithinkthatthat'sjustareallybasicwaytodoaketogenicdietthatIthinkpeople,theyovercomplicateit.Andwhenitbecomesatrend,anditbecomesasuper,likeyousaid,maybecompartmentalize,peoplegetintocertainspecificsabout,"Oh,I'mfollowingthismacronutrientcalculatedintothatone,andIneedtohitspecifically67gramsofproteintoday,andifIgooverbythree,thenitsabadthing."LikeIthinkpeopleconfuseitwaytoomuch.Ithinkthatagain100%Ithinkthatpeopleshouldbefocusingoniseatingrealfoodfirstandnothingelse.Onceyougetthatnailed,sureifyouwannastartdiggingintomacronutrients,that'sfine.


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ButthequestionIaskiswhy?Likeareyoutrackingwhatyou'relookingfor?Areyoujustmeasuringmacronutrientsjustbecauseyouthinkit'ssomethingyoushouldmeasure?AndIthinkthatpeoplegetprettyorthorexicaboutthistypeofstuff,andgetalittleintenseabout,youknow,needingtohitcertainmacronutrients.Ithinkthatgenerallyalsopeopleovereatfatinaketogenicdiet,Ithinkthatthisissomethingthatpeopleagain,youknow,trytogetfatbombs,likereallycrushyouknow,nutrient-poorfatsourcesover,andover,andoveragaintoexcessbecausethey'refat.Youknow,peopleeithertoldthemthatfatquantitiesdon'tmatterinaketogenicdietorthattheythinktheydon'tmatter,andtheycaneat500gramsoffatinadayandbetotallyfine.Thatcanactuallyleadtoatoalotoflong-termproblems.Andso,Ithinkthattrackingmacrosisfineifthat'swhatkeepsyouhonest,butIdon'tthinkit'snecessaryonebitatall.Katie:Gotit.

ThispodcastisbroughttoyoubyKettleandFire.Youmayalreadyknow,thatthisismygo-tobonebrothbecauseitisshelfstable,it’seasytouseandit’sdelicious.ButyoumaynotknowthatKettleandFirejustreleasedbrandnewbone-brothbasedsoups,whichmakeitevenmoreconvenienttoeathealthyonthegoplustheysavealotoftimewhenyou’retryingtofeedthewholefamilyonabusynightandtheyaredelicious.Theyhavemiso,tomatoandbutternutandtheyareallreally,reallygood.Plus,theyhavea20-hourslowsimmerprocessfortheirbroththatextractsinsaneamountsofprotein,10gperserving.Andthiscreatesacollagen-richbroththatisgreatforhair,skin,andnails.MyfavoritepartisthatitonlytakesaminutetoheatupanyofthesebrothsorsoupsonthestoveandIcankeepacaseinmypantrysoit’sthereanytimeIneedit.Rightnow,youcansave10%bygoingtokettleandfire.com/mamaandthediscountisalreadybuiltin.Sojustrememberthatlink-kettleandfire.com/mama

ThisepisodeisbroughttoyoubyMotherDirt.Didyouknowthatthereisamicrobiomeonyourskin,oratleastthereshouldbe?Asthebody’slargerorgan,ourskinisalsothebody’slargestecosystem,andmanymodernproductsinterferewithordepletethenaturalbeneficialbacteriathatshouldbethere.Sohowdowegetitback?MotherDirt’sAO+Mistrestoresthegoodbacteriathatonceexistedonourskinnaturally,butmodernhygienepracticeshavewipeditaway.Thinkofitasaprobioticandprebioticforyourskin.I’vebeenusingitforyearsanditisavitalpartofmyskincareroutine.Infact,60%ofMotherDirtAO+MistusersareabletostopusingdeodorantaltogetherbecausethepatentedAOBconsumestheammoniainsweatand66%ofusersfindthattheytakeshortershowers,andcutoutanaverageof2.5productsfromtheirroutine!Youcansave20%onyourfirstpurchaseonmotherdirt.com/wellnessmamawithcodeFREESHIP20.

Katie:Arethereanyspecificconsiderationsthatyougiveforwomen,specificallywithketo?BecauseIgetthatquestionquiteabit,anditseemsthatcertainsegmentofwomenatleastdorunintoapointyoumentioneditalittlebitwheretheydon'tfeelgoodonaketodiet.Soaretherespecialconsiderationsforwomen,especiallyhormonalconsiderationswhenitcomestoaketodiet?Dr.Gustin:Yes,certainly.IthinkthatthetwothingscomefromwhatI'vesaidbefore,whicharenoteatingenoughandnotenoughprotein.AndsoIthinkwhathappensalotoftimestheketogenicdietisthatit'ssosatiatingthatalotofpeopleunder-eatvastlywhentheyswitchtoit.Andsosomebodywillgofromeating2,500caloriesadayto1,300caloriesaday,andthenthey'llswitchtheirproteinfrom150gramsadayto30gramsaday.Thatisnotgoodforanyone'smetabolismletaloneawoman'smetabolism.


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SoIthinkthatactuallyundereatingproteinandundereatingtheamountoffoodtotalaretwohugemisstepsthatusuallywhenwomenshorethatupIhaven'tseenanykindoflong-termeffectsinaketogenicdiet.Youknow,itdependstoowhattheotherloadsofstresslooklikeinone'slife.Andsoagain,itcomesbacktostressandsoifnoone...let'ssayit'sawomanwhoissuperstressedout,sheagaindoessomethingliketrainsreally,reallyhard,doesCrossFitandthistypeofstuff,butthenswitchestoaketogenicdietandthenundereatsprotein,thatisarecipefordisaster.AndIthinkthatlookingatswitchingdietsisalsoastressaswellonyourbody.Soifyouswitchfromeatinghardcarbtolowcarb,yourbodyisgonnafigureoutalotabouthowitshouldbeworkingnow.Andsothat'sahugestress,ahugedemandonyourbody,andsoagainIwouldnotrecommendthistopeoplewhohaveahugeamountofstressathomeorthey'redoingreallycrazyworkouts.Pullthingsbackalittlebitandgetabaseline,andstartkindatransitioningslowlyandIthinkthat'sthebestwaytogoforwardwiththat.Katie:AndIlovethatyoukeepbringingupstress,becauseIthinkthat'stheeasy-to-ignorebutsuperimportantpartofhealththatdoesn'tgettalkedaboutenough.AndIsaythatasarecoveringperfectionistandsupertypeA,thatforsolongIwasjustlikeI'lljustpushthrough,Icanworkharder,Icandobetter.Andatleastformethatwasabigkeyinfiguringoutmyownhealthproblems,wasIhadtolearnhowtosleep,andIhadtolearnhowtoaddressstress.Becauseeventhoughmentally,Iwasgreat,Icouldpushthroughandbefine,mybodywasn'tfeelingthat.AndIthinkforwomenespeciallytherearejusttypicallyalotofstressesespeciallyformomsthatwedealwithonadailybasis,soIlovethatyoukeptbringingthatupfirstandforemostoflikedon'tgiveyourbodyonemorestressorifit'salreadyreally,reallystressed.Andalsotothepregnancyandbreastfeedingside,obviouslythosearenottimeswhenanydoctorwouldtypicallyrecommendthatawomanbeonaketodietorcertainlynotacarnivoredietoranythinglikethat.ButIwillsay,havingdonealotofresearchonthistopic,thatIdon'tthinkyoushouldspecificallyavoidanythingotherthanmaybesugarwhileyou'repregnant.Butwedoknowthatwomenwhoeat,likeyousaid,moreproteinwhenthey'repregnantandgetenoughhealthyfatsbutnotextremeamounts,typicallyhavebetterbirthoutcomes.Becauseyoudoneedatonofproteintogrowanentirehumanbeing,soIlikethatyoubroughtthatpointupaboutproteincontent.AndIthinkthatcouldbelikeaverybigkeyforalotofwomenisactuallyeatingmorefood,becauseforsolong,thedietindustryhassaideatless,movemore,eatless,movemore.Andforwomenmaybeit'sactuallyweneedtoeatmoreespeciallyproteinandmovemore.Butwhat'syourtakeonthat?Dr.Gustin:Ithinkyounailedthat,itactuallycomesbacktothepointIwasmakingbeforeabouttotalcaloricloadandtotalproteinload.Idon'tthinkthatpeoplegenerallyneedtolikeextremeovereatoranythinglikethat,butImeantimesofpregnancy,thingslikethatareobviouslyextenuatingcircumstanceswhereIthinkthatnutritionshouldbelikealittlebitdifferently.Againit'satool,andIthinkthetool...likeyouwantthetooltobebuildinganotherhumanbeing.Andsowhateverthattakes.Andlikeyousaid,increasingtheamountoffood,increasingtheamountofproteintohavethatbufferonthatendissuperimportant.Katie:Awesome,soanotherquestionIgetalotwiththeincreasingpopularity,youmentionedalittlebitexogenousketones,butalsodifferenttypesofoilsandfats,MCTs.I'mcuriousyourtakeonthoseandiftheyhaveaplaceinaketodietandifso,howtointegratethem?Dr.Gustin:So,exogenousketonesfirstofall...Imean,obviouslyI'mbiased,sofulldisclosure,Ihavea


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companythatweofferexogenousketones.AlotofpeoplehateonmeforpromotingthemwhenIhavesomethinglikethat.Likeofcourse,Ithinkthatthey'reappropriatethat'swhyIhavethemasaproduct,andthat'swhyIwantthemintheworld.There'sjustsomuchresearchcomingoutrightnow.Imean,mostofitisshowingthatevenwithcarbohydrates,exogenousketones...soifyou'renotinastateofketosisbutsupplementwithketones,youhavementalclarityboost,youhaveinflammationreduction,youhaveanxietyreduction,youhavedepressionreduction,youhaveenergyimprovement,youhavemetabolismimprovement,youhaveinsulinsensitivityboosts.Like,theamountofbenefitsthatarenotcomingoutarejustastounding,andsothisissomethingwe'relike...again,youlookatnutritionasatool.Iuseaketogenicdietasawayformetobemorementallysharp.Idonotuseitforweightloss,Idon'tuseitforanythingelse.EssentiallywhatIuseitforistokeep...IwassuperoverweightwhenIwasyounger,IthinkthatIfeelwaybetteronalowcarbdietingeneral.ButIthinkthatmymentalperformanceishandsdownmuchbetteronaketogenicdiet,andsothat'swhyIuseit.Andsothat'soneofthethingswherepeoplecantrythemandseeandgetthefeedbackloopof,"Wow,aketogenicdietmightberightforme."Anditmightsparksomeinterestasfaraswhatcanaketogenicdietfeellikebecausepeopletakeitandtheyfeellikeforinstanceeffortlessenergy.Andthat'ssomethingthatIthinkissuper,supervaluable.SoIthinkthattimesusethat,IjustflewfromNewYorktoParisacoupledaysago,andIuseditontheflightbecauseIjustfastedthroughit,andIfelt100%fineandmyenergywassuperhigh.AndinplaceswhenIswitchtimezones,Iuseitinsteadofcoffeeandthingslikethattokeepenergysuperhigh.Iuseitinthemorninginadditionorreplacementofcoffeetoagainhavethementalenergyupbutforme,super,superhigh.Foralotofpeoplewhenthey'reswitchingintoaketogenicdiet,yourbodydoesn'treallyknowyetthatitshouldbeswitchingawayfromcarbohydratestousingfatforfuelandsodoesn'treallyhavethesamepathwaysthatsomebodywhoisfullyketo-adaptedwould,tostartbreakingdownfatforketonestobeusingyourbloodstream.Andsowhenyoujustshootthatupinyourbloodstream,yourbodygoesokay,Icanstartusingthisnow?Thatsoundsreallygood.Andsoitstartsusingupthoseketonesandswitchingtoaketogenicdietlittlebitfaster,alittlebiteasier.Itcanhelpsubsidecravingsandhungerissuesforpeoplewhohavemetabolicissues.Ijustthinkhere'stonsofusesforit.DoIthinkit's100%necessary?Absolutelynot,thisissomethingthat'snotrealfood,Ithinkthatthingsthatarenotrealfoodarejustnot100%necessary.ButdoIthinkthatcanbehelpful?Yes,100%itcanbehelpful.SamegoesforMCToils,thingslikethat.Andso,thinkaboutBHP,whichisbeta-hydroxybutyrate,whichisaketonebody,that'swhatyougetfromexogenousketones.MCToil,whichismediumchaintri-glyceridesareessentiallytheprecursorstobeta-hydroxybutyrateorketones.Andsothinkaboutifyoulookatitonagraph,thatexogenousketonesbasicallyprovideyouwithimmediateandintenseenergy,hugespike.MCToilandMCToilpowder,whatthatdoesisitprovidesyouwithmorelonglasting,kindofthesameeffect.Andsoyou'regettingalotofthesametypesofenergyboost,you'regettingalotofthesametypesofmetabolicdifferences,andthat'swherethebenefitfromthatcomes.AgaindoIthinkit's100%necessary?No,Ithinkthatrealfoodhandsdowniswhatisnecessaryand100%required.Ithinkthatthesearethings...again,lookatwhattheysayonthepackage,theyareasupplement.Theyshouldbesupplementingarealfoodwholefooddiet,andnotreplacinganything.Idon'tthinktheyshouldbereplacinganything,Idon'tthinktheyare100%necessary,butIthinktheyareextremelyhelpfulandextremelyadditive.Andsoagain,whenwe'retalkingabout,youknow,thefastmimickingdietandwhatthatdoes,it


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helpswithcompliance.Ithinkthattheseproductsalsodrasticallyhelpwithcomplianceofshiftingsomebodyfromacarbohydraterichdietintoaketogenicstate.AndsoIthinkthatswitchingthatoverandmaintainingenergystatusandfeelingreally,reallygreat,theycanbevery,veryhelpfulinthatregard.Katie:Gotit,thatwasagreatsynopsis.AndaquestionI'dlovetoaskaswegetclosetowrappingup.You'vealreadymentionedseveralbooksandI'veaddedthemtomyreadinglist.ButI'dlovetoaskifthere'sabookthathashadareallybigimpactonyoupersonallyorthatyou'dliketorecommend?Dr.Gustin:Ithinkthat'satoughquestiontoanswerbecauseIthinkthatabooklike...Imean,Idon'tknowifyoueverheardthequote,like,"Youneverreadthesamebooktwice."Ithinkthatthatissopersonalandtimingisreallysorelevant.IthinkthatifIhadneverread"4-HourWorkweek"byTimFerrisswhenIfirstmovedtoSanFranciscosixyearsago,IwouldhavenotbeendoingwhatI'mdoingnow.SoIthinkasfarassheerinfluence,thatisoneofthemainonesforme.Ithinkthatrecently,Ithinkthatthelastcoupleofyearsjustasfarasthinkingaboutmyplaceinlife,"12RulesforLife"byJordanB.Petersonisprobablyhighupthereasaclosesecond.Katie:Thatisagoodone.Andlastly,ifthere'sapieceofadvicethatyoucouldgivetoalotofpeople,potentiallytoeveryonelistening,Iknowwetalkedaboutalotoftopics.ButI'mcuriousifthere'sadvicethatyoucanimpart,whatwoulditbeandwhy?Dr.Gustin:Imeanifitisn'tclearalready,Iwouldsayeatfoodthatspoils,eatrealfood,eatstuffthatgrowslocallyandisinseason.AndIthinkthataslongasyounailthat,you'renailingalotinlife.Katie:Iloveit.Dr.Gustin,thankyousomuchforbeinghere.IthinkyouansweredalotofquestionsthatI'vebeengettingalotrecently,andhopefullyhelpedalotofpeoplenavigatetheworldofketo,andunderstandingallofthesenewtypesofdiets,andwhentheyhavetheirplace.SoIreallyappreciateyourtimeandbeinghereespeciallywiththetimedifference.I'mhonoredthatyoutookthetime.Dr.Gustin:Thankyousomuchforhavingme.Katie:Andthanks,toallofyouforlistening,andIhopetoseeyouagainnexttimeon"TheWellnessMamaPodcast."

Ifyou'reenjoyingtheseinterviews,wouldyoupleasetaketwominutestoleavearatingorreviewoniTunesforme?Doingthishelpsmorepeopletofindthepodcast,whichmeansevenmoremomsandfamiliescouldbenefitfromtheinformation.Ireallyappreciateyourtime,andthanksasalwaysforlistening.

Documents

186- Ketosis, Carnivore Diet, Macros and Diet Variation ... · And so when you do break down things like protein, fat, and carbohydrate, you can look at those very essentially. Protein