[COUNCIL.]

men~t 1ow pnu'tising to continue, it will bi-onil y just. [ remiember when the Architect.-Act eaine into operation, one man who liarlbeen drawing plans for an individual iii thecountry was, admitted as an architect.

Member: Designing fowl-houses.Mr. J1. If. SMITH: Yes; and because hiv

ha1d done thlat work, hie was registered as anarchitect. A gentlem an who once oceupied aseat in this IHouse was als o registered as illareltiteet, and T do not think lie posszesse'iany professional knowledge.

Hon. WV. D. Johnson: That is not fair:he did.

Mr. J7. 1-1. SMI1TH: The samne applies toother men.

Rion. WV. D. .Jolhnsoti: He was a (1nstlifledMan.

Mr. J. 1-. 1~T do not think he was.Rool. W. 1). johnslonl: I have seenl hki

plans, anid .1 know lie was.Mr. J. 11. SMITH: When f first knew

him, hie was not qualified. Thle saute thingapplies to veteri nary surgeons. Becauseamanl had looked after a sick cow or filed ahorse's tooth, w;hen the Veterinary- Act cameinto force, lie was registered as a veweriflatrvsurgeon, while another m-an who knew mioreahotIt the work could not practise beceieof his inability to pass ani exam inat io n. Forthe last 13 years;, p)eople have been asking'for the door to ibe opened for the regis-tra-Lion of mnen praetising- dentistr 'y thirou . hhottthle State. If we give themn a chance?, the %will still have to passi An examnatflion be-fore thle Dental Board. The 'Minister hasagreed that Sonic alteration Of theL e-Xisiing'systeml is9 ne4T.oSsary. Let 11s ~ISS thle second1reading and then, it niecess-ary, the Bill cna

be a maended in Committee.

i mlotion by !ir. Wanabhrough, debateadjourned.

House ad jearied at 20.4 p.m.

Tcgislative council,ll vded caq, 0h Detre nibet', 1!M',7.

Soiittt-Webt I'iuviflre, seat declared viwaut_ .Paper.g: Gascoyne-3olinliyni itnd Board.i .lifls : Appropriation Zis. .. .. .. ..

Pernenit Ileler tAA fK1I 4(), 3Rt., jws'ediAu~gusta Allotmients, 3it., passed .. ..lesertes, 3iL., passed.. ..State Transport Co-ordination, 2R..........Fire Brigades6 Act Amaendrment, Itecos'. .J~otteries ((onurcil) Act Aniendrunent ('No. .!), 2m.,

Corn,.... ... ............

227'22272227222722272

227J

The PRESIDENT took the Chair at 4.80pa., and reaid pravt'IN.

SOUTH-WEST PROVINCE.

S'eal Dleahired I 'aratyi.

THE CHIEF SECRETARY (lion. J. Y1.Drew-Central) I 4.357 : I move-

't'ht this Rouist resiolves, that owing to thedeath of rte I-oni Jotn Ewving, late mnemrberfor thle H4tt. -West Proviiiec, the seat bedeclared vacant.

THE HONORARY MINISTER ([(on.WV. 11. 1(itsoii-W est) [4.361 -: I second thlemontion.

Question jput anti ]ni'Rt.

PAPERS-GASCOYNE -MINILYA ROADBOARD.

On motion by lon. J1, .1. Iloline. ordered'That all eorrespoicence sinee thle 1st .Janit-airY, 19311, he! we-en rce leatetsof, Pub-lii, Works -mil Llvhtoo anid the (lasenyne-Minilva imhaid Boa cd he laid oit the Table cof

the lu-.

BILL-APPROPRIATION.

Received front the Assemibly and read afirst timie.

BILLS (3)-THIRD READING.

1, Permnlent Reserve (A 't1102).

2. Augusta Allotlients.

.9, Reservei.pecssed.

[6 DavE.%ark, 19S:3.] 27

BILL-STATE TRANSPORTCO-ORDINATION.

Second Reading.

THE CHIEF SECRETARY MI on. J. kM.Drew -Cent ial) [4.44] in moving the secondreading said: The developmnents inl modernmethods; of transport have led to a disturb-aince of former sytisand have treatedpiohlemv which art' almost world-wide.The-l problems tire receiving tile attentionof nmany countries iii the hope of finding asatisfactoryv solution. So far no countryma r v be credited with having discovered anleasy war out of its dificulhies; in this c-on-noction. Yet, if the legislative enactmentswhich have been introduced to deal with thequestion are carefully studied, it will befound that they trendl in one diretion-thevtrend towards a policy of en-ordination andcontrol. In dealing with the qluestion in thepublic Press, a wide divergence of views hasbeenr apparent. Generally speaking, thereare two schools of thought. One favours asystem of rigid prohibition of tire newerforms of transport, w'here they adverselyaffect either niational utilities5 or old-estab-lished concerns pirivately owned liut fulfillingpublic functions, and with large vested in-toresis involved]. Tire other school ofthought supports tire doctrine of "sit still,do nothing and let things take their course."Both schools may be actuated by the mostszincere motives:. at the samne time, it is justpossible that both may be wrong&.

I have little doubt that, evell ini thishonus e, disciples of each of these doctrinlesare to be found, just as they aire to be foundoutside. If such lie the ease, it is desirableto examine the complicated position that hasarisen, and to lay down certain postulates,the acceptance of which will clear the wayfor a thorough knowledge of the principlesbehind this measure. That economical meansof transport inl any community should notbe discarded is a proposition with which allthoughtful persons will agree. The mainessT.ential of a system of cheap transport isto remove or reduce the disabilities that dis-tance from ports, markets or consumers,impose on producers or manufacturers.It inatterz little howv those disabilities- areovercomne, so long as they are overconte inwayvs which bring benefits to the communitya., a whole.

Until recent years. the transport systemwhic-h ministered! to the wants of our State

war be said to have been in the form ofrailways. How they have performed theservice for whiich they were created shouldlie well-known. They canl be judged byresuilts, which, after all, constitute the besttest. Whatever defects or short-comingsmary have appeared in the working of therailways, no ofle canl dispute the fact thatthe development of Western Australia hasdepended largely on the system of railwaylines, us planned by successive Govern-ments, to assist in the carrying out of theirrespiective developmental policies.

Many' yearn ago when tihe miner un-covered the wealth of Coolgardie, the firstcry that wentt up I roan the isolated commu-nity was for means of communication. Thesame any be said of every productive partof the Eastera and iAurehison groldilelds. Inrespionse to those demands, boug lines werethrown out from the modest railway systemthat had previously served only at narrowarea of the State. The finding of gold gavethe first great impetus to railway construc-tion in Western Australia. The result wasthat, between 1894 and 1910, approximately1,100 miles of railway were built to servethe mining industry. It is quite true thatthe railways owe a lot to the goldfields; itis equally true that the goldfields owe a lotto the railways.

Later on when the production of goldhad seriousl *y decflined, at polity of intensiveland settlement was pursued with the objectof maintaining the financial position of theState. In connection with that policy theconstruction of railways to serve the newareas was a dominant feature. To conveysome idea of tire extent of the railwaymileage so constructed it may be statedthat approximately 2,200 additional milesof line were built since 1910. With veryfewl excel)tious, the vast expenditure in-volvedi wins undertaken with one object.namely, to assist in the development ofagriculture. Tile value of the assistancerendered by the State to our mining andagricultural industries needs no stressingOne has only to compare the present mapof thle State with that of, say, 1894 to mea-sure the great strides that have been takenin the intervening years. There are otherevidences. Prosperous towns have arisenwhere formerly wildernes reigned, and itis a significant fact that these towns aresituated on our railway lines. That is not

2273

2274 iiCOUNCILJ

all. Fromn. a. hge importer of flour, we havebecome a large exporter of wheat, and weare building up a line export trade in flour.

It must not be assumed, however, thatthe country districts alone were the benefi-ciaries under this rapid development of theState's resources. Only a short-sighted per-son would harbour such an assumption. Thecity itself provides a fitting reflex of theimportant change which has taken place.There has been an enormous increase intrade, end, until the temporary set-hack,from which the whole world is still suffering,the metropolitan area 'was enjoying greatprosperity. To minister to the wants ofthe inland population, secondary industrieshave sprung up. It cannot be denied that,in many instances, the products of theseindustries are not availed of to the extentthey should he. But it is also beyond argu-ment that these industries owe their exist-ence, in a large measure, to the growth ofsettlement in the areas out-back. "Dairying,horticulture and other kindred activitieshave shared in the benefits -which the provi-sion of a home market means. Behind allthese, although often forgotten, is the rail -way machine linking up producer and con-sumer, or hauling, day in and day out, theraw materials essential to both primary andsecondary industries.

-But the building up of this immense system of transportation has not been accomi-plished without great cost. It has involvedthe State in a weighty liability. To-daythere is invested in our railway asset theenormous sum of £C25,000,000. With theexception of £641,000, the whole of? themoney has been borrowed, and the annualinterest on the sum now totals approxi-mrately £1,000,000. These figures and whatthey meaa are not realised by many in theState. To a conmmunity of just over 400,000sols, this heavy indebtedness is an iinpor-taut matter. It is so important that a Gov-ernment that failed to regard seriously anyaction which would impair the efficiency ofthe railways, or tend to destroy their valueas a public asset, would be guilty of a grossdereliction of duty. And it would not hejust to the bondholders who lent us themoney to build these lines.

In the face of these facts, the taunt sooften uttered that, in seeking a solution ofthe intricate problem of transport, the In-terests of the railways alone are considered,

is scarcely fair. So far as the Governmentare concerned, such a charg&e is withoutfoundation. In the Bill, which is now sub-mnitted, an honest attempt has been madeto hold the scales evenly, and to do justiceto all concerned. Only one thought hasactuated the Government in framing theBill--the good of the State as a whole. Sofar, I have merely presented, in broad out-line, the need of an efficient and economicaliteanis transport for the State and indi-cated hlow our railway lines have developedto eater for such need. Perhaps the terms"efficient" and "economnical" will incite chal-lenge in this 1[ouse as they have outside ofit; bnt I ve'y- much doubt it.

InI justification of the claim that the rail-car are performing efficient and economi-

e service in the interests of the State, letIne show vcry briefly the work they are

For thle xveilr endled .10th JIulie last the rail-ways carried roughly 119f million passengersand 2,840,077 tons of goods and livestock.The return received for tile haulage of goodsand livestock worked out at 3 .49d. per tonper mile-an. astoundingly low figulre. Nodoubt this achievemnent will be discounted tosante minor extent by the fact that ont theyear's work a loss of £17.5,681 was en-countered.

Let us tnrn back, then, to 1928-the rearthe railwvays last showed a, profit-and see,what the results were. Ti 1928 thre goods andlivestock toninage amounted to 3,097,648 tons,on -which the average earning received was1.76d. per ton mnile and the surplus recordedTwas £26,673.

The years 1924, 1925 and 1927 were allyears of profit, and in each instance theaverage rate per ton mile earned was greaterthan 1.76d., the return already quoted for1928. It follows, then, that the average rateof 1.76d. per ton niile is a, payable average.MW enever the Railways earn that aitount, a

lprofit ensues: whenever the earnings droplbelow that amount a loss in working is dis-closed.

Pursuing stilt further the analysis betweentthe yeairs 1928 and 1933 soe striking resultsare revealed. For instance, ant of the3,697,648 tons hauled in 1928, 51 per cent. wasbauled at less than the payable average rate-Turning to 1933 it is ifound that of the2,840,077 tons hauled approximately 2,100,000tons, or 74 per cent. of the total, returned lessthan the average rate.

Is it any wonder, then, that a loss was dis-closed in last year's working? Had theaverage rate earned i 1928 been realised lastyear, instead of a loss of £175,681 the rail-ways would have shown a profit of £200.301,despite the effects of the depression.

2274

(6 flEcEmBER, 1933.] 2275

To the minds of most mna, it is clearthat the railways are performing efficientand economical service to the State. Theclaim for efficiency can easily be established.The transit of approximately 12 millionpassengers was accomplished last year with-out serious accident.

On the goods side nearly three milliontons-including a heavy harvest-androughly 11/6 million bead of livestock weretransporte'd last year. Such an accomplish-went speaks for itself. It seems fitting hereto rt-fer to some of the causes of recentrailwvay losses. Since 1929 a series of leanyears have been experienced. For the fiveyears enied June last the total amount ofrailway deficits was £1,328,930. Muchcqpitql has been made out of these losses.particuilarly by people who are either inter-ested financially in road transport, or thosewho have only an imperfect knowledge ofthe subject.

To appreciate fully the true position. andto come to a logical decision it is essentialto review the operations of the railwayssince the date of their inception. A factwhich escapes the critic with immature ideasis that the railways are a sound and substan-tial investment. For the whole 54 yearsof their existence, they have shown a balanceover working expenses sufficient to meet allbut £1,553,000 of their aggregate interestbill of £22,000,000. Let hon. members con-sider every aspect of the question. Letthem weigh this comparatively small lossagainst the part the railwvays have playedin the development of the State. Theyhave made possible the working of minesin far-off parts; they have been largelyresponsible for the growth of our agricul-tuaM industry. The facilities they providehave enormously increased the value bofthe land; and they have assisted in creatingimmense sources of revenue for the StateTreasury. In the light of such valuableservice, is not this major transport systementitled to paramount consideration?

A prime factor in the losses experiencedby the railways in recent years has beenthe drifting away of traffic to the roadmotor vehicles and business both onthe passenger and goods sides hasbeen seriously affected in consequence.A comparison between the years 1928 and1933 shows a drop in passenger earningsof £826,421, due, in some measure, to the

depression, bat due largely to the inroadsmade by motor buses in the metropolitan-surburban area and the advent of the pri-vate motor car. These facts are well-known. No one can dispute them-no onewho goes about with his eyes open.

To meet the competition from the buses,railwayv fares on suburban lines were re-cently reduced, additional train servicesbrought into operation, and running timesspeeded up. Hence it cannot be said thatthe railways' personnel has sat down withfolded armsq. On the goods' side of thebusiness a more disquieting set of circum-stances has arisen. flue to the operationsof the road motor vehicle over 50 percent, of the payable goods traffic-exclusiveof wool-imas been taken away, and, in con-sequence, railway revenue has suffered asevere setback.

Hon. 1. Thomson: It is not all entirelydue to iiqtor transport.

The CHTIEF SECRETARY: I am in-formed it is. The production of the variousdistricts is well-known to the Railway fle-partinent. They have means of ascertain-ing the facts, and .1 am told that the in-formation I am supplying to this House isauthentic. In forming this estimate theyear 1928 has again been taken for thepurposes of comparison, but a recognitionof the fact that the railways were facedwith competition in that year makes theextent of the subsequent drift of trafficalarming. In 1928 the higher paying goods,carried under 1st, 2nd and 3rd classes inthe railway classification, represented 407tons per thousand of the population of theState. In 10S3, the goods carried by therailways uinder these classes representedonly 182 tons per 1,000 of the population.

Another item where loss has been ex-perienced is wool. Although the produc-tion of wool has increased since 1.928, thetonnage of this commodity hauled last yearwvas roughily, 4,000 tons below that carriedin 1928. Here, again, the railway manage-ment has sought to hold its ground by re-ducing the rate for carriage, but, unfor-tunately, the results achieved by the re-duction of surburban passenger fares werenot realised in the case of wool. Measuredin terms of money, the losses due to motorcompetition may safely be set down at notless than £150,000 per annum, and had thisnew transport agent not appeared, thefinancial position of the railways wouldhave vastly improved.

227U [COUNCIL.]

III considering a mneasuire of this kind,there is one vital factor which must be

en' M's elnvow rn-dnl'ni o d that is,the Government railways are operatedthrough good timnes or bad, irrespective ofwhether they are profitable or not, whereastransport systems, operated by privatecompanies or persons, will only operate solong as thle service is ai payable proposition.Another form of transport which has feltthe cffeet of road competition is the met-ropoiitann ttannay system.,

leon. 3. Cornell : I do not wonder at that.

The CHIEF SECRtETiARY: Tine effectof the new conmpeting agent however, is notreflected so gravely in the financial resultsof the tramways a; in the case of railways.Confined as the tramways are to a limitedarea, where the distance of the journeyis comparatively short, it is only natural tofind that the competition front the roadvehicle is not so serious in its consequences.An advantage, too, possessed by the tram-ways is thle protection accorded by theTraffec Act, under which buses are pro-hibited fromn picking tip or setting downpassengers within a certain limit of a tramn-line . A. prohibition also exists inl the easeof railways, but in this instance the pro-hnibitedi area is ill the vicinity Of railwaystations, leaving, as muay be limagined, theremainder of the lines open to comipeti-tionl. It is impossible their, to close one'seyes to tine fact that road motor competi-tion hats been responsible for mtost of therailwvay losses experienced. Tine reasonwhy.% this new transport agency has beenable to wrest so much traffic away from tineolder concern is to be found in the strue-tmnre of railway rates and fares.

I have shown that tine railways are nnationanliii their operation. Because of that fact,any tariff imnposed miust take into considera-tion oar national needs. That is thle policy'which has been pursued. H-ence tile railwaysof this State have never bneen permitted tobase their charges for carriage onn ordinarybusiness methods. The goods tine railwayshave to sell are in the form of transporta-tion ; but, unlike the ordiniary% business house,thle rai[lways are niot allowed to charge as abusiness house would do, for tine ac-tual costof the service given, As at rule tine publicview the railways fronni two angles: as a11nordinar , trailing concern, or as anlaenasszisting in thle State's development. As atrading concern tine public look to thne rail-

war juannageniont. to payv their w~y : as an,agent of developmnent the railway* s are ex-pected to carry ennornnous tonnages at uni-payable rates in order that industries nusaybenefit thereby. Sinnce both these nles arequite divergenit, it is illogical to ask tine rail-ways to contfolnIl to 1)0th stanldards, at tinesamte timle. Yet tis is whnt. tiney are calledujpon to do everv 'Inn inn thewev c

Ever since tine first railway w as built thereI a a benl inn toorce a syvstemn of nilcanes wi ichas for its basis somiething qil e foreign toordinantnn business prinneiples. Th''le n-aresfixed (10 not have regard to nnilenge nand noll-image only; they have regard also to thevalue of the goods transported. 'I'iie is tineprinciple known as "chargiung what- the tra I-fie wvill bear," and is eniti rely' disti net fromttile principle Of CWfiV-what tine trafliecosts to conlvey. By applying tine system,thlen, inn 1n comkprehiensive n-any, thle raIilwashave framed a scale of charges under wiiethe high-priced article is charged a higherrate than that iniposeui oun a low-pricedarticle.

Inn this way, anud buefore the Iy experienceedVomlpetitionl froun tine road vehticles, the rail-ways were able to carry Lint ennouoinOs tN-nage below tine payable average. The lee-way nun earnings was nmade mupb ine ecnargescollected fromn the higli-priced g'oods. Attertime wvarp whnen notor vehlicles conimeunced tooperate onl a conunnerejal basis, rhinr- opera-tons, discerned a profitable field to lie ex-ploitn'd. Tine settlement of tine counntry,aided b~y thle railway coIUnnnunieltion Po'-;rideql, had esitablishied a business, a ]pant ofwii was opeun to tisnunlt by innotor tnaun-slort.Motor transpont thnen set itself out to eaterfor that part of the business which was pro-fitable, leaving the Lunprofita~ble tonnage totime railwalys to Canrny, Undenr sit-h conldi-tions, then, mo1tor tn-unsport is riot a realcompetitor with ranilways, bunt a specialistwho looks for a proftable return on eachtraisactioni. He sets hiuniseif to pick theeyes out of tine traffic. Some capital inns heenmafde out of tine fact that in recent years,inootor trainsport hins beemn engaged iii carry-ing certain goods whicn comie unnder thle lowrates in tine railway tariff. FruIit aund vege-tables may be cited as instances. What tineupholder of tine nmotors does not tell nis isthiat these commodities are carried nun back-ioading. After having taken a highly pay-able load into tine country, thle miotor opera-tor finds, it pays hini to acceipt low freighnts

2276

[6 DnacmERn, 393:1.1 2277

on his return trip rather than run )larkempty.

The case against the buses in the mietro-politan area is quite as grave. Figures takenout by the Railway Department go to showthat of the suburban season tickets in force,over 70 per cent, are issued at concessionfares. The IIsCS, onl thle other hand, arefreed] fr-om any responsibility to bear a shareof the thousan~ds of school chbildren, a pprcn-tires, junior workers, and others whosescanty " age demands that they shall betransported at specially' low rates. Similarlyin cOurnry di striets it is the railways whichprovide low f'ares at holiday periods, andall -the-yea r-rou nd eoncessions for confer-ence delegates, farmers' wvives and families,goldfields children, students, maternity eases,judges ;it agricultlund shows, settles .is -tors to Wooroloo Sanatorium, and scores ofothers.

The question has often been asked as towhy the railways do not rise up and meetthis competition by reducing their rates onthe higher-pricedl goods. Last year all ex-periment was miadle in this direction by' re-ducing- the railway freight onl wool to thlepie-war level. lImnediately thle new scaleof charges was issuerd, the motor operatordropped his Ariges to the same, or to evena lower level. Catering- us he does for thlecariage or p~ayab~le goods only, the motoroperator has a far greater margin of proftthan the railwvays, and consequently lie isable to reduce his rates to a greater extent.

It is clear, then, that the oniy way inwhich tile railway, s can mevet the competitionwith which they arec fat-ed-other than byproper regulation-is by a coinplete recast-ing of the tariff. Such an act would at oncedi vest from the railways their role of anlagent of development and invest them withall the prerogatives of a trading- concern.The Governnient naturally do not wish suchan event to come about. They realise thatit would be the means of casting an addi-tional burden on the primary producer. Yetthey cannot allow the unfair competition,anud the costly overlapping of services nowexisting, to continue. On the other hand,the public Must realise their r-esponsibilities.In their claMour for railways they arealways prepared to accept any terms lpro-videdi a line is built.

Hon,. CT. W. Miles: People will vote forany railway, anywvhere, any time, any price!

The CHI1EF SECRETARY: I shall nowdeal with various clauses of the Bill. Clause4 limlits the power of the provisions in theBill to the extent of the legislative powerof the State. Clause 5 provides for theformation and constitution of a StateTransport Board of three memibers. onerepresenting the Government, one r-epre-seating rural industry, and one representingcit 'y lute rests, none of the members to blefinancially interested. Their term of officeis limited to three year,. The GovernmentwvillI appoint oiie member of' the board to bechairman. Meimbers shall not bie subject tothe Public Service Act, 1904. They mayreceive such remuneration as fixed by theGovernor. A quorumi consists of two mem-berts; any.% differences of opinion to be re-termed to a fumll meeting of the board. Memt-tiers may Ile deemed to have vacated office incase of bankruptcy, or absence from threeconsecutive meetings, or being interested inc:ontracts with the board. Clause 6 providesthat a member may be removed from officefor mmiisbeaviour or incomupetence. Clause7 dirxets that casual vacancies on the boardshall be filled by the Governor. UnderClause 8 provision is made for the appoint-ment by the Governor of deputy membersto fill temporary vacancies on the boardeaused through illness, suspension or ab-sence. Under Clause .9 a secretary to theboard and other necessary officers and ser-vants may be appointed. Such appoint-nients may he made under the provisions ofthe Public Service Act, 1904. The boardmay use civil servants with Ministerial con-sent. It is not intended to set up a newand expensive department. The hoard willniake use of the existing organisaition, andwill have only a secretary and n skeletonstaff. Clause 10 defines the powers andduties of the board, giving it all the powersand authority of a Royal Commission forthe purpose of investigations and inquiriesinto transport matters. In making suchinvestigations and inquiries, the board shallgive consideration to, among other factors,all or any of the following matters :-(1)The question of transport generally in thelight of service to the community. (2) Theneed% of the State for economic develop-ment. (3) The industrial conditions underwhich all forms of transport are conducted.(4) The impartial and equitable treatmentof all conflicting inteze*sts.

278[COUNCIL.]

Clause 11 authorises the hoard to inquireinto and report upon railway and tramwayservices, with the right to recommend theclosure, or partial suspension, of inadequateservices, and to tall tenders for an adequateroad or air transport service iii lieu thereof.Any such recommnendations made must besubmiitted to Parliament for its sanction.By Clause 12 the application of the Bill islimited to that part of the State south ofthe 26th parallel of latitude. Clause 13makes it an offence to operate a publicvehicle without a license under the provi-sion of the Bill. Provision is made wherebythis clause shall not apply if the board aresatisfied that a journey was made in a easeof special emergency. Clause 14 providesfor the imposition of license fees. For anomnibus or for an aircraft the fee shall beassessed onl a basis of the earnings of thevehicle. hut in no ease shall it. exceed 10per cent. of the gross earnings of the vehicle.For a commercial goods vehicle, the feeshall be determined by the board, but shallnot exceed 7s. 6d. per power load weight. Theadditional fees prescribed tinder Part 2 ofthe Third Schedule of the Traffic Act arenot payable for :in omnibus licensed underthis Bill. This means that omnibuses willnot have to pay license fees based on thenumber of passengers they carry, as is nowthe case. That part of the Traffic Act willnot app~ly to theam. Subsidies paidto aerial services shall not be re-garded as earnings. The regulations willprovide the miacinary for assessment.Clause 1.5 prohibits any person front send-ing passengers or goods by anl unlicensedvehiclde, and the next cla use provides fora penalty for failure to comply with theprovisions of the Act. Clause 17 makes itan offence to use a comtnercial goodsvehicle for the carriage of passengers un-less such passengers are members of theowner's family, or servants carrying outthe owner's business, or persons carriedin case of special emergency. Clause 18pirovdes that the Board may order publicvehicles and goods carried to be weighed.Under Clause 19 the Board may granttransfers of licenses subject to its approvalof the transferee, and the next clause pro-hibits the use of omnibuses not licensedunder this measure. Clause 21 providesthat the Board may grant licenses to omni-bits owners, and specify routes, areas ofoperation, description of vehicle, maximum

number of passengers, nature of service,fares, etc. Clause 22 sets out the conditionsand particulars of the license. Clause 23delinjes the matters to be taken into con-sideration b~y the Board before granting-Or refusing at license, and Clause 24 givesthe Board po"'er to grant applications forlicenses, subject to certain conditions inregard to picking tip or setting down pas-seilszerl With in aL certain distance of estab-lished railways or tranways. Clause 25makes it a condition of every omnibuslicense that the vehicle shall be maintainedin a serviceable condition, that insurancerequirements are carried out and that re-levant industrial awards are complied with.Clause 26 gives the Board power to imposeconditions in regard to specified routes,number of passengers to be carried, fares,time-tablcs, and requires that prescribedrecords and statistics shall be kept andsupplied to tile Board. Under Clause 27the Board may vary or cancel conditionsof the license, provided such variation isnot in conflict with the provisions of theAct. Clause 28 provides that licenses forbuses shall expire on 30th June of eachyear, unless granted only for a limitedperiod, which may he done. By Clause 29the Board will have power to authoriselicensed vehicles to miake temporary devia-tions and to operate temporarily onl routesnot sp~ecified on the license. Under Clause30 the Board may require local authoritiesto appoint stands for buses within its dis-trict. In the event of dispute, the mattershall be refered to arbitration.

Clause 31 provides that buses must belicensed in accordance with the Traffic Act,1919-32, before being granted a licenseunder this Act. The provisions of Clauses32 and 33 are that commercial goodsvehicles must be licensed under this Act,but exceptions are allowed in the ease ofvehicles wvhich operate solely within anarea, of 15 miles from the General PostOffice, Perth, or operate solely within aradius of 15 miles from the place of busi-ness of the owner. Other exceptions al-lowed, as outlined in the 1st Schtedule ofthe Act, are in the ease of vehicles beingused for the carriage of farm or forestproduce from such farm or forest to theneaest town or rail way station ; privatel yowned vehicles carrying the owner's grainto a mill to be gristed and the return ofthe products' of time gristia~g to the farm;the carriage of ore and mining requisites

2278

[6 DEMBE:R, J933.]221

in any prescribed iling district; samples-of foods for exhibition arid not for sale;the carriage of livestock to and from agri-cultural shows or exhibitions, and the car-riage of milk and cream to a factory.Vehicles used by the Crown or by a localauthority for its own purposes arc alsoexempt. Provision is also made for the car-riage of perishable commodities from placeof production to any other place and thereturn carriage of requisites for domesticuse or use on the farm. By Clause 34 theBoard may grant licenses to commercialgoods vehicles. Under Clause 35 applica-tions for licenses shall give particulars ofroute or area in which it is proposed tooperate, description of vehicle, class ofgoods to he carried and other prescribedparticulars.

Clause 36 p~rescrilbes that the Board willconsider the necessity for the service in rela-tion. to existing eonveniences, conditions ofroads to be operated on and the characterand financial standing of the applicant.Clause 37 gives the board power to grant orref use applications. Clause 38 provides thatlicenses shall be granted on condition thatvehicles are kept in a serviceable condition,regulations. are complied With, iilitatiori Ofhours of driving, and relevant industrialawards arc complied with. By Clause 39 theBoard may attach certain conditions to anycommercial goods vehicle, including a con-dition that it shall operate only upon speci-fied routes or in a specified area, and underClause 40thre Board may vary or cancel anycondition imposed. Under Clause 41 licensesfor a commercial goods vehicle shall expireon the 30th. day of June of each year, Pro-vision is made to enable the granting oftemporary licenses. Clause 42 lays downthat the Hoard may permit temporary devia-tions or alterations of routes, and by Clause43 all vehicles must also be licensed underthe Traffic Act, 19-1932. Clause 44 de-clares that aircraft arc not to operate withinthat part of the State south of the 26thparallel of latitude unless licensed, exceptingwhere continuous flights take place corn-rncncinz from and terminating on thesmn landing ground, or in eases ofspecial emtergency. By Clause 45 the]loard macy grant or refuse licenses toaircraft. No licenses wiill be granted foraircraft which. do not comply with Corn-moniwealth laws, and by Clause 46 rele-vant provisions of certain sections of this

Ac~t shalt apply to aircraft. Clause 47 limitsthe continuous driving- period for drivers ofcommercial goods vehicles and provides apenalty for contravention of the provisionsof the Acet. Clause 48 makes provision forniembers of the police force and officersauthorised by the Board to take action forthe purpose of ascertaining if the provi-sions of the Act are being carried out. -UnderClause 49 certain matters will be deemedproved unless defence proves otherwise, asfor instance rio license, and ownership ofvehicle. Bv Clause 50 licenses niust at alltimes be carried in tire public vehicle licensed,arid under Clause 51 both d]river arid ownershall be gunilty of an offence for operatingan unlicensed vehicle, but the driver mayget off if lie proves he reasonably believedthe vehicle to be licensed. Clause 52 pro-vides that proof that passengers wvere car-ried on a vehicle shall be considered as suirn-cleat evidence that the vehicle was operatedas an orilibus. Clause 53 contains penaltiesfor infringement of Act or regulations,Clause 54 gives the Board power to revokeor suspend licenses, and by Clause 55 theBoard may direct that legal proceedings hetaken for the recovery of penalties. Clause56 provides that this Act shall not affect theoperation of the Traffic Act, hut that Acthas to be construed subject to the expressprovisions of this Act. Clause 57 grants theBoard power to make rcgulat ions with re-spect to matters in connection with admin-istration and transport control, and Clause5S indemnifles the Minister, Board, and offi-cers of the Board in respect to action orliability for matters done under the author-ity of this Act. Clause 59 makes financialproviin for [lie operations of the board.Funds will be derived from revenue fromfees and any Parliamentary appropria-tion. Against this, cost of administra-tion is charged; any balance dividedbetween statutory authorities for themaintenance and improvement of roadsused by the vehicles licensed. UnderClause 60 the Board mnay operate validlyin the period after the passing ofthis Act and before it comes into operation,but no license can become operative untilthe mieasure becomes law. This will enablethe Board to do preliminary work on a legalbasis before the Act. comes into effect, sothat there mnay be a clean start on 1st Julynext frorn which date the Act commences.

2279

[COUNCIL,]

Some of our railway users are devoid ofmoral sense. Many instances could be citedwhere important concessions have been madeby the railways to individuals and indus-try, and where they have been met withno reciprocation. After enjoying to thefullest extent the benefit of these con~ces-sionfi, miany who owed much to tihem havepatronised motor0 transport where it waspo~ssible to mnake sornk small saving as aresult. tRailwayvs have been built in responseto the l)ersistenlt agitation of residents ofvarious districts-rail ways which underfair trenaient would be payable proposi-tions-jut rio sooner have they been comn-plete(I than the.,y have bad to encounter at

the hiaids of their rivals, cut rates oil Ihigher-freight goods-rates 'wlhich did not existpreviously and wich ell e wnly inutroducedwhen road. transport was faced wil't railwayc-omnpetitioim. It shouild he obvious to al

that thre -ates, would never have been re-duced at all only for suich competition. itis to prevent snehIl Unlevoflouic and wastefuloverhapping (it. transport that the presentmeasure has been framed. There is no in-tention of killing motor transport. It isrecognised by the Gioverunuent that, in cer-taini respects and in certain circumstances,road motor transport is superior to railtransport and is capable of rendering valu-able service to the comnmuunity. But, undertile preseilt coinditioins of unlregulated coml-petition, road mnotor transport is frequentlydoing a dis-service instead Of a service tothe commrunity. To remedy this state ofaffairs road motor transport must be pre-pared to submit to an adequate measure ofcontrol.

Let me quote the views of Professor D. B.Copland, Dean of the Faculty of Convoca-tion, University of Melbourne, on this im-por-tant question of road motor coinpeti-tion. Tile Professor has said-

It cannzot be conceded that mlotor transportis to be forbidden mecrely because it takestraffic from tile railways end therefore in-creases time railway deficit to be met out ofthe Consolidated Revenue. In sonic cases themaninten-ance of railway facilities might ini-volv-e the e-onmaunity in a greater ecoimouieiloss than would the increased taxation re-qnirrir to mneet that portion of a railway'lein-it dlnr to lilotrir commpetition onl seonelines.. . . . .X k re p~rolribitioir of' rioloitranisport catn rot lit re2garde~d Ius imI 'oimmi-tally sound course. liv smell action thlve ommmnity ini effeet ignmores thle advanitages to liederivemd froum a new toini of~ mmecli~miii

trairSPOr-t.G overnmenC)ts would no0t Ileserving tire, best interests; of their communt~li-tics if they sought to establish a comipleterailway monopoly for time purpose of reducingtire burden of ratilway finance upon budgets.Oil tire Other han~d, the claimr of pri~ ate trains-port interests that unrestrieted aonipetition ashould be allowed cannot be sustainedl. Wheremotor transeport is iiot a commtioni Carrier aailmterely, takes the cream of the traic oilfavoured roultes, it may retnirn a htiirdsOrirnprofit to the private owners. 3D suppose5 tihattire existencee of such a profit indicates a neteCOnomic10 gain to thle comrimunity involves afunidamkental error. Ill tis case, thle pirofitmay be less than the net loss to tile corn-inunity1 throngm thle reductioni of railway,revenue en ronites where the railways areforced to carry the less profitable freight.For handling somre goods, iotor tra nsport miarhave advantages over railways. Yet, takingthe whole of tire traffic for any area wheretbis traffic is considerable, it cannot be cor-coded that motors woald offer facilities equalto those of the railways. WNIhilil this condi-tion of affairs prevails, thme State is justifiedill protectinmg its railway assets, and any in-eon venience caused thirough the rai'lway.hanadliag thre goods ))ost suitable for motortraffic is counteracted by time facilities offeredby thle railways o11 thme whole of thle traffic.Of course, if thre community coul afford bothforms of transpiort, it wotld not be necessarr'to restrict motor comrpetition in such :r degree.IFn any event, the more bulky traffic shouldbe sufficient to ineet tire overiread expernsesoif the railways, but in Australia evidenice lhtsriot yet been furnished to show that sucwh acondition of affairs is possibie. It is, there-fore, necessary to regIsate competitioll be-tweenl road armd rail transport bv- rntionithe services.

All article by Professor- T. Hytter, pub-lished iin IN circular issued by the Bank of'Kew South Wales on the 1st August. 1933,copies of which irre ill the hands of mem-licis, Supports Professor Copland in vital-respects. It may be said that the Govern-ment are seeking to strangle private enter-

Trise. The Bill furnishes no evidence ofsiuch a motive; no such motive exists. TheGovernment regard road motor transport-is a public utility and therefore subject tocontrol ill the public interest. This principlehas been well stated by the Supreme Courtof the United States of Ameica~ asfollows:-

'When orre devotes iris property to a1 use inwiict the public [rave an interest, lie in effectgrants to thre public an interest iir that useand must submuit to bie corrtrolled liv thepublic for tire conunoir good to thre extelit Oftire itercest he has tins -reated.

III1 this re-spect ridu 1inni tran~spourt iirnot being, sing-led out. The State railways

[6DECFMBER, 1933.] 28

arc subject to the strictest control-controlnot only in matters of policy, but in theiroperations. They will be subject to controlunder the Bill. Many public meii who areopposed to the control of road motor trans-port would stoutly resist any attempt to freethe railways from the control that is nowimposed on them. It is difficult to under-stand how such an illogical attitude can betaken tip and maintained.

As an illustration of the value arisingfrom proper control, let mue cite the amalga.-muatiolls that were imposed upon the rail-wrays of Great Britain uinder the RailwaysAct of J921. 'Not only were the companiesarrang-ed into grouips calculated to produceeconomnical working, 'out the principles oftheir charges were laid down. by a tribunalwith a view to securing a standard revenueto the companiesz.

N~on. A. Thomnson: Will that apply un-der [lie Bill to our railways?

The CHIEF SECRETARY: The Billwill apply to the railways. In the UnitedStates of America another tribunal has anover-riding authority as regards railways.In fact, from what I can learn, such a prin-ciple obtains wherever railways exist, 'Thereasonl Ibehind all this regulatin of u'pertioi is that railways are everywhere re-garded as puhlic utilitiesI and road motortransport must accept similar coniditionisor go out of business. The Government arelnt uniniindful of the fact that the passingof the Bill will restore to the railways a1measure of their former conditions ofoperation and a coinsequient iniereased earn-ing power. As a quid pro quo for this pro-tection, the Government should soon heable to make a solid reduction in thoseraites which are found to be bearing heavilyon railway customers because of the falin COutnio1ditV values.

Hon. J. .1. Holmes: The hoard to bie ap-pointed will not control the railways.

The CHIEF SECRETARY: No, but theywill exercise all the powers conferred bythe measure. If the Government are un-able to secure the passage of a Bill ofthis kind, only two courses will be opento them. One will be to increase the freighton goods in order to make the railways pay,and the other will he to impose increasedtaxation. Either of those courses would]be unjustifiable while there arc means thatmay be availed of, with justice, to control

tratlic generally and protect the railways,in which a Vast Sum of mioney has beeninvested. I mov

That thio Bill be now roadI a second timne.

HON. J. 3. HOLMES (North) .15.54]:It has been suggested that the debateshould be adjourned, but as we are nearingthe end of the session, I am prepared toproceed with the discussion to-day. Oneremark by the Chief Secretary that .1couldnot quite understand was that there weretwo schools of thought, one of which ad-vocated sitting down, doing nothing andletting things go as they were.

Hon. J. Cornell: That would not hec aschool of thought.

Hon. J. 3. HOLMES: Certainly we couldnot include the motor transport people un-der that heading because. so far fromt sit-ting down and doing nothing, they havemnade good progress. .1 consider that theBill does not conformt to the title. I amnot raising the point in order to get a rul-ing; I merely refer to the fact that themeasure is designated a co-ordination oftransport Bill and I cannot read any co-ordination into it at all. It seems to meto be a Bill to protect the railways. Whilsta good deal has been said under that head-ing, I would have liked to see more evi-dene of co-ordination. The mneasure prac-tical l:tv exempts the whole of the NorthProvince, seeing that it is not to applyabove the 26th parallel of latitude, hut Itake it that members representing theNorth Province have a duty to see thatequity and justice are meted out to allsections of the community. Metropolitanand Country Party miembers are vitallyconcerned iii the Bill and we shall probablyhear their views in due course. So far-as I have been able to ascertain, no countryhas yet discovered a solution of the prob-lent of railway and motor transport. I donot suggest that this Bill will provide asolution in this country, but we can take a,good many steps towards solving the prob-lem, and perhaps the necessity might arisein the near future, and in the light ofincreased knowvledge, to take additionalsteps that will carry us to the point atwhich we arc aiming. I do not believethat any one form of transport, whetherrailway or motor, will meet all the needsof the public. Railway transport might havesufficed 50 or 60 years ago, but inthese days when people desire to travel

2281

(COUNCXL.3

rapidly and do things quickly, no oneform of transport will meet all the contin-gencies that arise. We should bear in mindthat thle steam power used by thme railwaysis generated from coal which is a productof the country. True, we have been paying'too much for the coat, but seemingly theGovernment are getting on the right tracknow. The point is that the money expendedon coal to generate the power for the rail-waysa is kept in the country, while the fuelused for motor transport is imported fromoverseas and the money goes out of thecountry.

Hon. V%,. ilamerslcy: WNhat about pro-ducer gas?

Hon. J1. J. HOLM.ES- There has been alot of gas-producing in -- House, andthere will be more by Country Party mem-hers before this Bill is finalised.

Mejmbecr: What about oil in Lte North?Elon. J. J. HOLMIES: Evidently the rail-

ways have not taken sufficient advantage ofthe improved mechanism introduced intosteram engines. They certainly have not takenadvantage of the system of electrifying rail-ways, which, I understand, is cheaper thanordinary steam. power. Even if electricpower were used for the railways, we wouldstill he generating it with locally producedcoal and the money would be kept in thecountry. Some States run light trains verycheaply, though perhaps for the carriage ofpassengers only, but we do not seem to havemade any move in that direction. Certainlywe have not moved at the rate motor trans-port has moved. The people interested inmotor transport are awake to every improve-meat in mechanism and effect; improvementsto their services almost every day of theweek. I am not blaming the railway officials,because the chances are that Parliament hasnot provided them with the money required.The fact remains, however, that the railwaysmight have dlone better by running lighteror perhaps heavier trains. I travel fre-quently on the Midland line. On that lineone can hardly see where a train begins andends, especially on a Saturday morningf. Thetrains carry passengers, merchandise, livestock, agricultural implements, in fact,almost everything one can mention. So faras the brake-van is concerned, thle guardmust be very expert to be able to unravelthe parcels and deliver them at their rightdestination. Compare that wvithr our Govern-ment railways, where You see a passenger

train starting practically empty, and thenfollowed by a goods train. I have not beenable to understand why we cannot amalga-inate passenger and goods trains and thuseffect economies inl our railways.

Harn. A. Thomson: That is frequentlydone.

Ron. J. J. HOLMES: Onl the Govern-ment railways?

Hon. A. Thomson: Yes. They call themmlixed trains.

Hon. J. J. HOLMIES: I travel about thecountry as much as most people do. I seemixed trains on the Midland line and pas-senger trains and goods trains running s-epa-rately onl the Government railways. Wemnust remember that £25,000,000 of moneyhas been invested in the railways of thisState. We cannot blame the Railway De-partment, the Commissioner, or the trafficofficers for that. Many of our railways havehiel forced upon the department by thepoliticians of this country, and a good manyof the politicians came from the country,too. Those railways have not been patron-ised by the people for whom they were con-structed to the extent that they should he.The Bill should be so framned aq to comipelthose who advocated the construction of thoserailways to use them, and my assistance willbe given in that direction. Those railwayswere forced upon the Railway Department;they are political railways, one cannot callthem anything else. Some railways, the con-struction of which was authorised seven andeven ten years ago, have not yet been built.Recently Parliament authorised the construc-tion of two railways, and they will be pushedonl to the Railway Department also.We are told, too, that those railwayswill riot pay. 'Members have spokenin this House about writing- dowimn thlecapital cost ot the railways;: yet they wouldpush new railwa 'ys on to tile Conmmissionerthe next moment and then Come along-next year and ask that thle capital costof thema be written down also. The railwayshave not had a chance in this country. Wehave built roads parallel with the railwaysto take the traffic away from the railways.

Hon. A. Thomson: Would you not haveroads connecting towns with each other?

Hon. J. J. HOLMES:- I would not haveroads lending from somecone's backyard toPerth, so that people could dodge payingrailway freights. The Railway Departmentaire compelled to maintain a safe line, upon

[6 DECEMBER, 1933.] 22133

whic-h the trains can travel. That is not sowith motor traffic, which can knock the Toadto pieces. They shoulder no great responsi-bility- for the maintenance of the roads. Therailways are at another disadvantage withrespect to high gr-ade and low grade traf-fic. High grade traffic pays a high rateand low~ grade traffi a low rate. Yet theaidvoc-ates of railways have the audacity to.end all their high grade freight by motortruck and ask the Railwvay Department to(-any ti eir low grade freight at the lowerr-ate. That is neither honest nor fair. Fromwhat 1 hav-e read in papers published in theEastern States and elsewhere, it is not con-sidered possible for the railways to carryall the traffic. but it is considered possiblefor the two systems of transport to workin harniony. Some time ago Mr. Thomsoniniised the question of carriers feeding thrailways and loading the trucks, and thenother carriers mneeting the trucks at theirdestination and distributing the goods. Thatprioposal was rather- ridiculed by the Min-ister. but 1. find that the p~ractice is giow-ng elsewhere, with advantage to the Rail-

way Department and the public generally-'Chat is what I mean by co-ordination andprovision should be made in the Bill forsomlething of that nature. With respect tosubturban traffic, wvhich the Minister looksupon as very important, the railways canmake up their mind that that traffic is lostto them. They can never regain it, unlessmotor transport is prohibited altogether.People will not use the trains and he putout ait a railway station when they cantravel by motor transport which picks themup at the door and puts them off where theyw-ant to alight. I shall quote from the reportof the Chief Traffic Manager of the Rail-way Department evidence to show that adistinct attempt was made to get this pas-senger traffic back, but without success. Irepeat that I do not think the railways willregain the suburban traffic, unless power isgiven to the Transport Board to stop themotor service. If that were done, I thinkthe public would rebel. Members will there-fore see the propriety of steering themiddle course of co-ordination which I sug-gest. It must be borne in mind that theBoard will have power to fix passengerrates f or the bus services; and there is apossibility that the board may fix those ratesat a figure so low that it would not pay for

the petrol. Then the motor service wouldhave to be discontinued and the public con-sequently inconvenienced.

Hon. L. B. Bolton: That will never comeabout.

Hon. J. J. HOLMIES: The public wouldbe subjected to such inconvenience thatthey would not tolerate it. Still, the factremains that such power is to be given tothe board. Parliament would not do whatI suggest the board might do, because mem-hers hlave to consider tile people with votes;hut the transport officers could do so, be-cause they would not be influenced by peoplewith or without votes. I raise the point toshow the danger that we may run into. Pro-vided the right mn are appointed, I thinkthe proposal to appoint a hoard consistingof three members is an excellent one. Theyshould be men with brains, and they shouldbe just land equitable. I cannot bring my-self to believe that, when it comes to thealpointlment of members of the board, whatis now known as the "policy declared fromthe housetops" will be put into operation.

Irefer to preference to unionists. If Ithought that policy would be applied to themembers of this board then, instead of try-inge to assist the passage of the Bill throughthe House, I would work 24 hours a day,seven days a week, to try to wreck the men-suac. WNe ate to have a representative ofthe Government, a representative of the citypeople, and a representative of the ruralpeople. .Provided the appointees are un-trammelled and unbiassed, that they aremen with brains and have equitable minds,I do not think anyone could make a bettersuggestion. They need not necessarily bemen -with railway experience. The bestboard I know of is the South Australianboard comprised of three members, none ofwhomn knew anything about railways ortransport. They had brains and ability,however, and have achieved the best resultsin Australia.

Sitting suispended from 6.15 to 7.30 p.

Hon. J. J. HOLMES; In dealing with thequalifications of members to be appointedto the proposed board, I want to make itclear that I look upon the board really asthe Bill. If wve get Ihe right men for theright board, we shall get the right results.Front the standpoint of age, I have inin d some mjen who have been alsso-

2284 [COUNCIL.]

elated with other institutions and havereached the retiring age at which, fromthat standpoint at any rate, they are of110 further use to the organisations withwhich they are associated. I regard thequestion of age, as applying to the appoint-ments to be made to the board, as of con-siderable importance. I do not suggestthat younger men have more brains thanolder men, but the fact remains thatyounger men are more in touch with thetrend of modern times and know what isgoing on in the community. Under theBill, extensive discretionary powers wvill bevested in the board and, so far as I cansee, there is no provision for an appealagainst any decision the board may arriveat. In view of the exceptionally wide~powers with which the board will beclothed, I do not know that it would notbe fair and equitable to make provisionfor an appeal either to one of the qualifiedresident magistrates or to a judge of theSupreme Court, "'ho would be able to bearboth sides and give an equitable decisionon the facts aidduced. If we are to givlethe board a free hand. I have already in-dicated how it will be possible to drivemotor traffic off the roads by fixing ratesthat will be unpayable for those interestedin that form of transport. There is an-other aspect to be considered. If thelicense fee is fixed and the charges onvehicles are levied onl a very high rate,owners of those vehicles may be compelledto increase the fares chairged to such anextent that the travelling public or theproducts of the country areas will bepenalised. There again the provision re-presents a double-barrelled issue. By fix-ing an unremunerative rate, the board maypush the motor traffic off the road, or onthe other hand, by fixing an exceptionallyhigh rate, while not pushing the traffic offthe road, the board would vietimnise thetravelling public. When we consider thematter in that light, I think members willagree that it would be equitable if we pro-vided some method of appeal. Again fromthe standpoint of equity, those concernedin the motor transport services have estab-lished businesses and have rendered ser-vices to the community. They may becompelled to abandon routes or even theirbusinesses. I do not know that they shouldbe entitled to compensation for loss of busi-ness, but if the whole of their plant wereto he set aside, then I think the question

of compensation should apply when theirvehicles have depreciated to an extent thatthey represent a more or less unsaleableasset.

Hon. A. Thomson: Surely a certainamount of good-will must be involved ita reasonably good business has been builtup.

Hon. J. J. HOLMES: I do not knowabout good-will. These people embarkedin the business of their own free will.They knew, as everybody knows, that itwas only for the time being. If the boardin their wjgsdonu choose to refuse a l icensethe vehicle will practically be of 110 furtheruse. Tl'len the question or Comipenisatioin IIIy

arise. Compensation was provided underthe provisions of the Licensing Act, and inthe same wvay compensation provisions couldlie included in the Bill and the paymentsunder that heading could be made fromthe funds at the disposal of the board. AsI have pointed out before, I am merelyconsidering the matter from the standpointof equity.

Hon. G. W. Miles: Who would con, eCI-sate the Railway Department if the boarddecided to close down a line?

Hon. J. J. HOLMES: I1 will comec to thatphase; I am taking one hurdle at a time.The Rill provides for fees payable in re-spect of licensed motor vehicles, and oneis pavale onl the basis of 1.0 Per ceint. o0the gr~oss earninigs. f understood tile li-enlsefee payable tinder the Traffic Act will meananother two per cent., so that under thosetwo headings there is an impost off12 per cent, ol nmotor vechicles. Thiosecharges will have to be passed on to thePulblic. In considering the Bill, itwvill hie our duty to see that the in-terests off the public as well aq those ofothers concerned. arc adequately protected.The public are vitally interested in this qlues-tion. Mlotor transport is a great conveni-ence in getting from place to place, particut-larly in these days when we have to (to somuch in so little time. As a fact, one can -retto Fremnantle and hark by motor bus in thetime that would he occupied in waiting- fora train to depart from Perth. In my opin-ion the railways will never regain the pas-senger traffic in the metropolitan arca. uIn-less motor traffic is pushed off the road-, alto-gether. If that were attempted, it would] bean injustice, not only to the proprietors ofmotor buses and cars, but to the public -ell-

2284

[6 DECEMBER, 1933.] 2&

era liv. To verify what I have contended, Ishall quote some extracts from tlhe report oftim, Cointissioner of Railways and also otherreferences of which I mnade a niote fromlu tameto time. tin 1033 the Riail[wayv Departmlentmuade a distinct attempt to get hack seIneof the suburban traffic and, according to thedleipartmental report, thle trains travelled anladditional 80,000 mniles4 over and( above the"mileage traversed in 1932. It will not beani exaggeration if we consider the ruimningrCo~Sh at M.Os. per train mile. That wouldropresent an 1 additional £40,000 to run80.0100 extra train miles. Tihe railways, ear-iiiu 1,2410,000 niioire passengers in 19:sa thanlit, 1932. but. strange to say, the not resultira- that thle department reeived £922 less

i193:3 than in the previous4 Year, A hugeSUM Must have been spent in advertising inanl attemipt to get thle people to piatronisethe railwvays to a greater extent. Onl reli-able authority-i. do not remember see-ing the il iintion in the Press-1 havelbeen informed that thle Coinuissioner ofRa1ilwVAys announ11ledelark~ inl 1932 that liep rop osed tu sp end I C5,000 on i Idvertisi mg.Certainlyi it brouight 1.200,000 inure peopleto tile trains, lint the net result was a r'eturn'tof £922 lesqs than was received in the pre-vious year. In the past-this is wh 'y I lookwith more satisfaction on the proposedIboard, epecially now that we understand thatthle;' will have sonic eontrol over thel railway-verything has been (lone that tends tomake the railway' s unprofitable. Long Ser'-vice pay has been provided; a 44-hour weed:was instituted; roads wore constructed paral-lel to tile railways to rob the system of traf-fic. Then therec is the qunestion of time trans-port of school children. Soine of thle younglpeople inl thle outer areas have brains andit becomes advisable for themn to attend thelarger schools in the city. I Understand thatthey pay Is. per mionth; over short distaneesin order to attend schools where they receivetheir education free. That does not seeml tomc to be quite fair-. Women and childrenin the outback portions of thle State may de-sire to visit thle city. If it he thought ad-visable for themn to do so, there should beSome other means prodided to enable themn tocrane to, and go from, the city, without pen-alising the Railwa 'y Department by requir-ing, themi to bie e-osiveyed at reduced rates.WVhen people criticise the Railway Depart-wnent regnrdiun. net result~a, they should real-ise thatt thle dlepa rtutent ha-, very lit tle s.v

inl such matters. Like the Chief Secretarythis afternoon, I take this opportunity ofmentioning what the railways have done inthe interests of the State under adverse con-ditions. The Chief Secretary told us whatbad been done between 19208 and 1933. 1have nlot the figures available, and probablysonie other mnembers will follow the matterup, but 1 would like the Chief Secretary,when hie replies, to tell tue how mnany menwere employed inm the RiwyDepartmentinl December, 1932, and how mnany are em-ployed during- the preoeflt mnonth of thisyear, I unllderstandt that a statement waspublished ill 0110 of the Eastern Statespapers to the effect that 1,000 mnore mcminwere employed ill the railways this monththan there wtere in Decembher, 19.92. Whatis puzzling- mie is what the Chief Sec-retarv stated this afternoon, that whilstthere, has been ani enormous decreasein the traffic. there appears to havebeen a b ig- addition to the staff.When we conic to thme producers being comu-pelled to patronise the railways, 1 do0 niobwant; themn to be victimised to the extent ofhaving to carry; onl their shoulders an extrathousand mnen. I desire the producers to geta tair deal in the way of freight when theyare compelled to send their products, to miar-ket hr rail. I could go onl like Tennyson'sbrook dinawing attention to the dead-headsthat arc being pushed onl to the Railway De-partient, people that the department shouldnever be asked to carry. Another questionarises, and that is the power of thle hoardin, connection with the closing-down of rail-wvays. If carried out in the right way andin the right spirit, this is what we have beenlookingc for for a long- time. Subelause (2)ot Clause 11 sets. out-

if in thle opinion of thle board thle servicesof any railway or tramiway as aforesaid areinadequate, impossible of imnprovement-

I ask memibers to note tbu,,e words '-inipus-sible of improvement"

-and the requirements of the district areor can be better served by road and/or airtransport, the board may recommend tileclosure or partial suspension of service of therailway or trainway.

The board, after analysing the whole posi-tion, comnes to thme conclusion that a par-ti-eular line should be closed down. A motorservice may suit a section of the eonmnmunitybetter than either a railway or a tramway,

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2286 (COUNCIL.]

and then the board has to come to Parlia- that produce must be carted to the nearestment before the railway or tramway canl heclosed dowvn. What has happened in thisHouse during the last 20 years, in connec-tion with every railway Bill that has comeuip for approval, no matter how good or badit may have hecn9 All those Bills were ap-proved. Several were approved as farback as ten years ago, and the lines havenever been built. I ask, therefore, what hoapehave we of closing down a railway that maybe recommended by the board as "impos-sible of improvement"? I have speciallymarked Subelauses (8), (4) and (5), he-cause if we are not going to give the boardpower to do all this in the case of railwaysthat are "impossible of improvement," itwill get us back to where we are now. Leta judge of the Supreme Court or a magis-trate decide the point onl the evidence ad-(]need. In view of what has happened iiiParliament, we shall never get anywhereunder a proposal such a-s that contained Inthe Bill. Subelause (7) of thle same clausesets out-

It shall be thme duty of any person or per-sons charged with the promotion or proposingto construct any new railway to confer pitsuch proposal with the board, which shall in.quire into the same and report thereon. Theboard's report shall be laid before Parliamentwhen the Bill to authorise the constructionof the railway is introduced.

I have marked that clause as "too late." Wehave just recently authorised the construc-tion of two railways and unless we can makethe subelause retrospective, so that we canmake it apply to those two railways, it willnot have my support. My desire is to seethat tile railway charges that are imposedare normal, and that a huge staff is not builtup, as is now suggested.

The Chief Secretary: Who is your author-ity for saying- that a huge staff will be builtup?

Hon. J, J. HOLMES: An Eastern Statesnewspaper. As I said at the outset, the Billwsill apply to the State south of the 26thparallel. Therefore it does not really affectthe province represented by Sir EdwardWittenoom, Air. Miles and myself. Still,we fry to take a broad view of the wholesituation and of all the legislation that coniesbefore this House. It does affect the south-ern part of the State and there are twopoints that concern us. The Bill provides

railway station.Hon. E. H. Harris: To which there mnay

be no roads.Hon. J. J. HOLMES: Yes, and which

may be almost inaccessible. If we carry thatout, we may have men oil the Murchisoncarting to Mteekatharra over 800 miles awayinstead of perhaps going in to Pidar.

Hon. C. F. Baxter: The Traffic Act meetsthat difficulty.

Hon. J. J. HOLMES: It does not meetthe difficulty that may arise uinder this Bill,that you have to cart to the nearest railwaystation and, as I have just said, thenearest railway station sometimes isnot accessible. South of the 26thparallel there are some big stationsand, if the Bill passes as it is, thestation owners, in carting to the nearestrailway station, may have to cart theirproduce away from Perth and unneces-sarily' add 300 or 400 miles to the railwayjourney. The only other amendment thatwve ask for the North is in connection withshearers. It is customary at the commence-menit of the shearing season for the con-tractor to get his team together in Perth.The contractor, in his motor truck, makesa bee-line for Kimberley with all hisshearers. Then he works back from sta-tion to station, and when he has finished,lands his team back in Perth. All we askis that these men be allowved to continueas they have done in the past; that is, togo up by motor truck and return in thesame way when they have finished theirjob. I am advised that the Railway Do-partmlent have no objection to that. I in-tend to give general support to the Bill.I hope that when we get into Committeewe shall be able to amend it on equnit-able lines. T shall not take any stepsthat wlill Jeopardise the passing ofthe Bill; my efforts will be devoted solelyto making it an equitable measure. Thereis just one other matter, and it is that Tshould like to know whether Clause 60does not attempt to amend the Interpre-tation Act It says -

Notwithstanding thle provisions of tile In-terpretation Act, 1918, etc., etc.

I hope the Minister will be able to explainthe meaning of it. I am more than everconvinced that every clause in a Billshould conform to the Title of the Bill.

[6 DECEMBER, 103.22

If I start an action against anybody underthe Licensing Act, I do not want to lookup other Acts of Parliament to see whetherthey contain a section bearing on theLicensing Act. The House would be act-ing wisely by not having an amendmentof the Interpretation Act tangled up witha Bill to provide for the improvement andthe co-ordination of means of and facilitiesfor transport. I support the second read-ing of the Bill.

On motion by Hon. A. Thomson, debateadjourned.

BILL-rIBS BRIGADES ACTAMENDMENT.

Recommitali.

On motion by Honorary Minister, Billrecommitted for the purpose of furtherconsidering Clause 2, the inserting of anew clause to stand as Clause 8, and toamend the Title.

In Committee.

Hon. E. H. Gray in the Chair; the Hon-orary IMinister in charge of the Bill.

Clause 2-,Arrangement:-

The HON'OR-ARY 2LENIST ER: Duringthe Committee stage a suggestion wasmade that the Second Schedule to the prin-cipal Act should he broughlt up to date. 1have, as promised, inquired fully into thematter; and the amtendments appearing onthe Notice Paper deal with it. The pre-sent members of the hoard have beenelected to hold their seath until 1034, andthe first amendment of which I have givennotice Provides that, notwi thstanrding thepassing of this Bill, they shall do so. Be-lieving that the new schedule which formsthe subject of the second amendment willhe agreed to, T move my first amiendmnent-

That the following be inserted to stand asparagraph (c).-"by adding an additionalproviso at the end thereof, -as follows:-'Provided, also, that notwithstanding theamendment of the Second Schedule to theFire Brigades Act, 19i6, as enacted by theFire Brigades Act Amendment Act, 1933, theconstitution of the board shall continue underthe provisions of the Second Schedule asenacted by the principal Act until the 31stday of December, 1934.'"

AmLiendment put and passed;, the clause,as amended, agreed to.

New clause:

The HO10NORARY MiX1ISTEli: I nmove-

That the following be inserted to stand asClause 3:-

S. Thre Second Schedule of the principalAct as enacted by section four of the princi-pal Act is repealed, and the following sub-stiuted.

Second Sched(ule.

Part I.MNunicipal IDistrict-Thc City of Perth.Road Distrit-Perth.

Part II.'Muinicipal Distriets--Clarernoat, Cottesloc,

East Fremnantle, City of Fremnantle, Guildford,Midland Junction, North Fremantle, Subiaco.

Road Distriets - Bssendean, Bayetvator,lBuckland Hill, Canning, Greenmiount, Mel-ville, Nedlauds, Peppermint Grove, Perth,South Perth, Swan.

Part III.Municipal Districts-Boulder, Kalgoorlie.Road Distriets-Coolgardie, Cue, Kalgoorlie,

Leonora, Meekatharra, Yilgarn.

Part IV.Municipal Distrie ks-Albany, Bunbury, Bus-

sciten, Collie, Geraldton, 'Nurrogia, Northamn,Wagin, York.M

,Road Distriets-Beverley, Brookton, Katen-rung, Kellerberrin, MHeckering, MAerredin, -Nor-tham, Toodyny.

E~ach district under Parts IU., III., and IV.to be namned the (name of municipal or roaddistrict) fire district. The letters (R.B.) tofollow the namies of the Perth and Kalgoorlieroad districts.

It was asked wvhy the schedule did not in-elude the names of certain local authoritieswhich hare come into existence in recenty.eairs, and why it did include the Dames ofcertain local authorities which have goneout of existence during those years. There-fore it way be as well for me to read someinformation supplied to me, which willprobably satisfy Mr. Harris that the newschedule is complete. The president of theFire Brig-ades Board writes-

A fire district cannot be established with-out a reference to the local authority con-cerned (Section 30). Fire districts arc niotconstituted by the Fire Brigades Board, butby the Governaor-iu.Council. It is the practicefor the Minister to refer such applications tothe Fire Brigades Board for their recoin-lnendation. No fire district has ever beencreated except at the request of the localauthority concerned. The municipal districtsand road districts referred to in the SecondSchedule of the Act are constituted as '"fire

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288[COUNCIL.]

dlist ricts*' under Section 6 of the Act. Thoseauthorities, therefore, do not have votingpower as a local an thority, but solely as atconstituted "'fire district.''

Thle nams which a ppexar inl the new scheduleare thle whole of the constituted fire districtsin the State at the present time.

When any fire district becomnes extinct, andis not a contributory to the board, such dis-trict has not been permitted voting power.The Act is deficient in its direct power toabolish any fire district once constituted. Inipractice, however, once a local authorityceases to conitribute to the board, that localauthority has not been permitted to exercisea vote for board representation. Any aewlj'created district is added to the schedule of'the Act by Order-in-Council.

That is in accordance with Section 4.

New areas beyond the boundiries, of anyparticular fire district a nd it, a nothei Inca-authority's area ar icJoi ned as a unit ed firedistrict. Each local authority within the ureaof ai united fire district has voting power.The Second Schedule to the Act does notalone provide voting power for the fire dis-tricts mnentioned therein, but also allocatesthe represen tation~ of mnembership inkil theboard. The districts mentioned in each ofthe four parts of the schiedule elect one repre-sentative, so that there are one representa-tive each for the city of Perth, (Part 1.),mietropolitan area (Part T1.), goldfields areus(Part 111.), other areas in the State (PartTV.). Thle city of Perth has the right of onerepresentative, being by ifar the largest localauthority contributing to thke board's funds.Thle districts mentioned in the other pa rts ofthe schedule were intended, when fte, presentAct was framed, to represent as far aspracticable a community of interest; butwhile Part I IT. embraces goldfields comimuni-ties, Part IV. also included the goldfieldsareas of Cue-Day Dawn and Mfeekatharra. Itwas considered at that time that the r- pre-sentative of the Eastern, Goldfields area couldnot reasonably. represent, by reasnon if rhis-tanee, the Murchison Gioldfields :,rcas men-tioned. The district of Wiluna will probablyshortly be declared a fire district, and theunthe Eastern. G'oldfields representative can morereadily take in Wiluna and Meekatiiarra, ifnot Cue, under Part UT1. At present the gold-fields representative embraces at very smiallarea indeed. Thle attached schedule is su--gested as a more reasonable and more work-able one than, that now existing under thlepresent Act, which is 16 years old. Shouldany change in the schedule be made b, Par-liament, it would be advisable to provide thatthe existing mnembership of the board shouldstand until the 31st December, 1.934, afterwhich members could be elected by districtsapportioned under the new schedule.

That liiwa the- posi tioni, elabtoration oil nix-])±trt is ait ineedled. 11' this new clause is

agr-eed to, it will bring thle schedule up todate and will provide for thle future inclu-sion of fire districts by Order-in-Council.

Hlon. J. CORN\ELL: As the inetiibcr wit',drew- Mr , Kitson's attention to the need forrevisinkg the schedule, I support the clause.

New~ clause put and passed.

Title:

i-on. J. CORNELL: It will be necessaryto aiend the Title. I miove an amendment-

That after the words ''forty-two ' there beinserted '"an icite Second Schedule."-

Amendment pitt and passed; the Title. a:'mended, agreed to.

Bill reported with further amendments,including an anadment to the Title.

BILL-LOTTERIES (CONROL) ACTAMENDMENT (No. 2.)

Second Reading.

D~ebate resuitned from the 29th 'Nov-ember-.

HON. C. F. BAXTER (East) [S.14] :Tfhjs Bill, T see, is ani old friend back. willianl ulendmnrt to include relief' of uneniplo.%-nient. When tile original Bill was intro-duced here, I. being in charge of it, there"'as at strenuous debate. The objection Ithen, expressed to the inclusionL of unemploy-nicut relief' within tike purviewv of the Billis lte objection I have to express nlow.Such at thing tends to cr-eate at permanent1l(1-'v of' snetpltn-ed. There are other wsaysand meaus of fhIi tcing unemployment, andwe should not saddle anN Act of Parlia-'at-nt w~ithI su-h a provision us that pro-posed in the Bill. According- to the state-ients of thle Minister for Employment.

there is not now~ so great a neted to- liin-eing unemploymenit. I am informed,whether auireetlv or itot, that at the open-ig oif tile Local Product,, Campaign in Kal-

goorlie thle .11inister said that thle presentGovene,,i had it to their credit that theyhadl Itouglit about a position in which therewve-c on!ly 4,00)0 unemployed.

Hont. E. H. Gray: Pout- thousandfamilies.

leon. C. F. BAXTER : I hope the stale-ment is correct. In any case. one must jiotdoubt thle word of! a Miinister. That beingtile posit ion, Whatt nied is there for such

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[6 lDacruiE ins:3.] 228!)

anl amnendmnen t as the Bill proposes ? Thenwhere is the need for sudeb at an nur asthis? 1 object to any Act of Parliament thatwvill create a permlanent body of u neipio 'ved.Durng the past th ret' and a half yearsquite a lot of our vocalgey people have gotjnto) such a -aine of ini,,1 that it will lievery difficult, when thle time comes, to getthem to carry out the work that has to bedone in the community.

Hall. E. H. Gray: It is not their ramir.lion. C. F. BAXTER: -No, that is true,

:,nl(] [ aclerv sorr-y for thtemj: but to noltlet us do anything to encourage then, in thatattitude. The flex t amendment provides forthe Minister's appbroval it, tile aIoea-tion of funds proposed to be mnade hythe c-ommnission. The parent Act in its pas-sage throughl Parliament was one of themost discussed and most criticised measuresI have ever k-nowni. Unfortunately for mypeace of mind at the time, I was tile marlresponsible for pilotinig it through thisHouse. The one thing paramount with thethen Cabinet was that the Act should hekept absolutely free from ministerial conl-trol and authority. I contend that thatattitude should be maintained to-day, andindeed righit through the piece. Let us keepthese lotteries clear of politics and freefrom political influence, no matter whatMinistry may be in power. We have toomany State activities now, for there is over£C2,000,000 involved in the State tradingconcerns and we have no hope of realisingonl any of them.

The Honorary Minister: You would notsuggest a loss being made on this one.

I-on. C. F. BAXTER: No. This is en-tirely profitable, which is the greater reasonwhy, it should be kept free from ministerialcontrol. Why should it be necessary for theAtitisit-r to give his approval to any aliena-tion resolved upon by the Lotteries Comn-mission? Why should the power be takenout of the hands of the commnission? HasIt invthi ag gone wrong? Has there been, all'justification for such a proposal? I do notthinuk anything could be more sati sii-tm-'vthan the carrying out of the lotteries andthe distribution of the moneys. This pro-posed change, handing over the power ofdistribution to the Minister, should not betolerated, and I hope that in Com-mittee this amendment will be strucko'ut. Ministers have quite enough to do

without this added duty; and, irrespec-tive of that, thle p~roposed principle is ab-solutely wrong. The complete power ofdistribution should be in the hands of thecommission, not in those of the Minister.Ltrust that in Committee neither of these

two amendments, the one proposing to in-elude the unemployed amongst the bene-ficiaries to at greater extent than is now pmro-itled, and the other to give the Mfinisterpower over the distribution, will be agreedto. There are other ways and means ofassisting the unemployed.

lion. G. Fraser: How can the unem-ployed be assisted without this?

ll. C. F. BAXTER: IUnder the Ac 4the Lotteries Commission have power toassist them lip to £250 front each lottery.Palpably, the money is intended for chari-table purposes, not for the unemployedat all.

H~on. G. Fraser: But this amendment ison lv to widen the di stri but ion when re-quired.

Hon. C. F. BAXTER: No, if it remainsin the Bill it will become mandatory.

I-on. G. Fraser: No more mandatorytha n it is at present.

li-on. C. F1. BAXTER : Yes, it meansnothing but mandatory power. .1 hope thatneither of the two amendments illj beagreed to.

HON. W. J. MANN (South-West)[8.22] : There is very little in the Bill thatI canl support at all. The only clause towivcel we nmight reasonably agree is Clause4-

Hion. E. 1-. Gray: And you will amendthat?

HaJn., W. J. MANN: Yes. if I have myway We will substitute .1934 for 1986. Ifthle Lotteries Commission are competent toconduct the lotteries, then surely they areequailly competent to say- wvho shall par-ticipate in the distribution of the pro-ceeds. I am surprised at the incltusion ofthe clause giving the 'Minister power toVeto the decisions of the commission in thedistribution of the funds. By it the _Min-ister is only building up for himself a lotof trouble. If I were the M1inister I shouldbe glad to see that provision struck outand so save tile from heing bombarded byindividuals and organisations wanting toparticipate in the distribution. I %%ill sup-p~ort the second reading, but in Commlittee

(COUNCIL.]

f will oppose Clatuses 2 and 3, and willattempt to amtend Clause 4 by striking out-1I93G" and inserting~ "19.34."'

HON. J. M. MACFARLANE (Metro-politani-Stlbiirhai) [8.25] : There is. in thleBill very little I can approve of. I will sup-port the second reading, but in CommitteeI will vote against the inclusion of the un-employed in the distribution of the proceeds.Last year I voted for the original measure,desiring to see chaos resolved into order. Iain satisfied that the year's work, of the Lot-teries Commission has effected that. Butthe position is still difficult. If sufficientmoney were produced by the lotteries fullyto finance the charitable institutions enumner-ated in the Act, 1 muight be ireiared to suip-port the inclusion of the unemployed in thedistribution. Buit we are a long w.ay fromthat position, and so I will adhere to mydecision of last y-ear until the charitable in-stitutions nained in the Act are fully pro-vided for; until then I will not help to ex-tend the field. Clause 3 does not -appealto inc either, fur I do not think tile Mfin -ister Should interfere with anly consmuissiollor other body, so long as they are doingtheir work satisfactorily. It is Only in ex-tremne circumstances that Ministers shouldStep ink and execIise au1.thority. Such inter-ference with the Lotteries Commission wouldlie quite wrong, and I will not support it.Als.o I think the Act should be continued foronly one year.

li-on. G. Fraser: -Make it a hardy annual?9lion, .1. '%L MACFARLANE: Yes. Ll. i--

-ret that it should be necessary to have itonl the statute book at all, and I would makeit anl annual measure so that it should comeup each year -for review. I will support thesecond reading,.

HON. E. H. HARRIS (Nborth-East)[8.30]; :fIn keeping, with the Tfitle of the Actpassed in 1932, the object was to provide forcomnismoners to conduct a given number oflotteries and make recommendations as toother. persons who might he permitted toconduct lotteries. 1 recall the fight thatoccurred onl the floor of the House for therecognition of unemlployment relief com-maittees, such as are provided for in thisBill, When the original measure was be-fore us. Mr. ]Kitson and Mr. Gray movedamiendmi Ients along- simuilar lines which, likethe amendment proposed in this Bill, pro-

vided for miushroomn growthis or- oraniisa-tions leilng permitted to partake in the dlis-tri bution of soiue of, the cash to alleviatethe difficulties of tile more uinfortuiraie see-tioin of thle coimuun111irv.

Hion. E. i1I. (."ray: It could not he donleander the prset organaisaition.

.1-tomi. E. Hf. HlAf(U 1: The other ilitM)r. Fraser put tip a case which Mr. Holmesdescribed as consisting of sob-stun;, and hedlid well. One could alaost hear the tearstlropping on the carpet! I can visualise acandidate onl the platform of the LabourParty. One of the planks hie would adoptwon]ld be the basis of a promise somethinglike this, "If [ amn elected to Parliament,the first thing I wsill do will lie to ,;ee thathe unfortunate uinemployed get a greater

degree of sustenance than is granted them

'Member: And the sick would get at per-centage less.

Hon. E, H. HARRIS: Quite so. On thatthe candidate would fight the election andwould he able to make out a very good case.I suppose -that independent candidates too,'would adopt the same cue andm make it a1political issue. Last session, when the orig-i-uat. legislation was before us, r.Kitsonmoved an amendmient to include in the de-tinition or "charitable ipurpose" t-ie follow-ing-

Any body organiised far the purpose of dis-pensing relief to thie Uimemloycd.

At a subsequent stage Mr. Giray moved aniiniendment-

Or ny~ uneinploye1 relief cominittee recog-nised by the Mfinister.

Thus Mr. Gray was prepared to go a littlefurther than Mr. Kitson proposed. If theM1inister looked around amongst the numer-ous people desirous of getting their hand on,ionic of the money, lie might have said,"There is Mr. Gray, a reliable citizen, Iwill give himi a good wad." We should notcountenance anything of that kind, or per-nit of its being introduced into a political

campaign.Hon. E. H1. Gray: The poor old thing is

used in political campaigns.Hon. E. H. HARRIS: Whbat will candi-

daites not resort to in a political campaign?I have lived in a district vvhere the dirtiestthings have been adopted. However, I donot wish to discuss that matter. Mfr. Kit-son's amendment was defeated by 1S votes

[6 DECEMBER, 1933.] 229]

to six, and M1r. Cray's amendment shared ;Lsimilar fate, the voting being 16 votes tosix. On that occasion members showed de-finitely that they would have nothing to donwith such a proposition, aind if we voted onthe question to-night. I venture to saY thenumbers would be about the saime.

Hon. (-'. Fraser: You are not allowing forsome of the mhenmbers having been edutcatedduring the last 12 months.

Hon. E. H. HARRIS: The lhon. iweiihcrhad better not talk a bout educating anyone.Clause 2 proposes to give the Minister powerto say to wvhoin the mioney shalt he givien.That, in mny opini. on, is anl mJpudcat prol-posal to include in a BillI forwardvil for theconsideration of a House of revision. Toput up that g-Uff in anther piac wh vIere no-thing but party' politics is served up from,one side to the other may be all right, butit is not a desirable thing- to submit to thisHouse, and I hope mnembers will not ap-prove of it. I do not think that lrovisionwas inserted with the idea that the Mfinistershould be merely a rubber stamp. I thinkthe object was that the Minister, represent-ing the Government of the day-mry re-marks refer to any Government, irrespec-tive of party-should be able to use it topolitical advantage. We all know that theLabour Party'.s Gibraltar of finance has beenindustrial unionism, and it has been stated]by membeis of this House that they wouldnot he here but for sweeps. That was a can-did admission and quite a true one.

Hon. WS. J1. Mann: Do you mean consul-tations?

Hon. E. H. HARRIS: If necessary. I amprepared to quote the names and dates from"Mansard."

H~on. J. M1. Macfarlane: What is the defi-nition of sweeps?

Hon. E. H. HARRIS : Consultations con-ducted by a party, and it was said with somedegree of truth that the funds had beenotilised Lo, political purposes. May I in-dicate a few amnendments that I cons ider d~e-sirable. One member suggested that liewould like to make this legislation subjectto review annually. I have provided a neces-sary amendment. I am sorry my amend-ments are not on the Notice Paper, but owingto circumstances over which 1. had no con-trol, I was prevented from placing them,there. The amendments are such that, if wemnak-e it necessary for this legislation to be

renewed annually, the appointmen t of coin-rmssioners will also be made an annual mat-ter. The other dayv we had a Bill before uspurporting to p~roteet a inberr of thisChuamber, and it limited the protection tothe 31st December, 1933.

Hon. J. J. Holmes: Was it not 19;34Hon. E. H. HARRIS: As introduced by

the Government, it provided for protectiontill the 31st December, 1933. and this Housedecided tU protect that membher till 1.934.

The Honorary Minister: You know thatthat is not strictly acurate.

Hon. E. If.. HARRIS. I moved the amend-ment.

The Honorary Minister: Tme Bill wenfurther than you have indicated.

Hon. E. H. HARRIS: The Bill definitelyprovided protection for that member till the31st December, 1933.

Hon. J. Cornell: The Bill proposed pro-tection for that member or any one of theother 79 members.

Hon. E. H. HARRIS: I said ait the timethat it opened the door wide to affordingprotection to the other 79 members, and Iam glad that the House took the view thatthe Bill should afford protection to the onemember only. I propose to move in Comn-mrittee that this measure be extended till1934, but as the other Bill sought toprotect a member of this Chamber till.1933 only, and that other members of thecommission may have, their services dis-pensed with at the same time, I shouldlike an assurance from the Honorary Min-ister that the Government will re-appointthe present commission, In making thatrequest, I do not consider that I am askingtoo much. It has been suggested that theGovernment do not intend to reappointsome members of the commission. Onemember we have endeavoured to protectuntil 1934, hut the Government may defeatthe will of the House by failing to re-appoint the present commissioners on the1st January next. If I thought that waslikely to happen, I would not support thesecond reading of the Bill, and I do notthink there are 10 members of this Housewho would do so in those circumstances.It may be that any action that has beenor may be taken here will prove valueless.If a decision to that effect is given else-where, it will be an endorsement of theviews expressed by some members of this

2292 [COUNCIL.]

House. There is n prov ision in tho Conl- fan, IR. 6. 'MOORE: Yes, Onl one occi-stitution Act that notwvithstauding anyamendment that may be made, a chargeagainst an individual may not be invalidagainst him. I do not intend to enter intofurther details on that point. MNy vote onthe second reading wvill le contingent onlthe reply of the HonoraryN. Minister whenhe closes the debate.

lion. C. F. Baxter: When alluding to astatement made by the Minister for Em-ploymnent on the goldilelds. I did not quotehim correctly. By way of personal ex-planation, I wish to give the exact wordsreported to have been used by' him in twospeeches delivered in Kalgoorlic. Theywere-

Less than 18 nionths a go fthere were 17,000families onl sustenance. The statistician'sfigures showed that lnst Sn tnriay the ninmberhad beens reduced to 2,500 families. Withinthe past few mionths, as a result of the cam-palign to induce people to purcha,,se the goodsof their own State, no few than 4,000 addi-tional Monds lhad found snployiiient in thefactories in Western Australia.

HON. R. G. MOORE (North-East)[8.4S'] :I do not intend to speak at lengthonl this Bill. I spoke on tihe second read-ingr of the other Bill, and if I knew howto kill this measure, I would certainly doit. I am not concerned about what assurT-ance the Minister might give in reply tothe question asked by Mr. Iharris, orwhether any of the amendments are objec-tionable or otherwvise. I do not intend tosupport the second reading. On a previousoceasion I gave my reasons for my oppo-sition to legislation of this kind. Tt is awell-known fact that the gamibling, evil,not only in Western Australia but in allparts of the civilised world, is a contribut-ing factor to the poverty and distress thatexist.

Ron. C. F. Baxter: Can you suggest anywvay of stopping it'?

Hon. IR. G. MOORE; I am suggestingthat w~e should not encourage it by legalis-ing lotteries. 1. also suggest that if theGovernment desired to suppress gambling,they could suppress it to a great extent.

Hion. W. J1. Mann: Dlid you yourself everhave a little flutter?

Honl. R. G. MOORE: Yes, I1 have pur-chased a ticket in an art union.

Hon. W. J. Mann: How did you get on?Did you "-in anything?

sion .[ won a rooster. Isa it is recognisedby all that gambling is responsible for agrecat dleal of poverty, and as it is onlypoverty that malkes charity necessary, Ithink it a false policy, apart from the prin-ciple altogether, to encourage the cause inorder to relieve, to some extent, the effect.In other words, if we encourage gainbling,as wve do by these lotteries, we are cultivai-ting, the germn responsible for the spread ofthe disease.

Honl. G. Fraser: Will the lion. menmbersay in what other way we can relieve theprevailing distress?

Hon. IR. G. MOOR01E: I have alruady toldthe lion, mnember; but no people airc soblind as those who wvill not see. Aionigotheir things, the hion. member said thatwhen lie was ging around he wished he wasa wealthy Juan so that he could give awayso much for the relief of unemployment.

Hon. J. Cornell: A sort of FatherChristmas l

Hon. R. G. MOORE: it is a very easymatter to finid hundreds of people who areanxious and willing to give away w~hat theyhave not got. I am reminded of the sayingof Josh Billings, "Always say you arc sorryfor the p~oor, it does not cost anything." Iam just as sympathetic towards the poorand towards charity as anybody else; but inthis istance I do not think the end justi-fies the mneans and, because I think encour-agng- the gambling evil is denioralising thepeople and because I think gambling iseconomically unsound-last year we foundthat it was necessary for the people to con-tribute £70,000 in eider to give £30,000 tocharity-I shall oppose the second readingof the Bill.

Hon. H17. Seddon: 1. move-

That the debate he adjourned.

ilation put and negatived.

HON. G. W. MILES (North) [8.48]: Ishall vote for the second reading of theBill,' although I am opposed to the secondand third clauses and I desire the fourthclause to be amended. After what variousmembers have said with regard to the pre-vious Lotteries Sill that was before theHouse, and with regard to the splendid wvayin which the Commission have conducted thelotteries during last year, I ami glad Mr.

[6 flruunb.a. 113:L1] 2293

Harris raised the point he did and askedthe Mlinister direct whether it is the Govern-inerd's itrnention to re-appoint the membersof the commission. If we do not get thatassurance, then I think we should insert aclause in the Hill stating- that the presentmembers shall he re-appointed for a termexpiring in 1fi34. I hope the Minister willgive tile assulaflee asked for; if not, it isthe fill 'i (ii the House to extend thle a'ppoint -locat of the eommisson to 1934.

HOW. H. SEDDON (North-East) [8.491I nmcii te adIjour nmnt of the dleba te be-

tueI thougliOi it quite possible lion. meiii-bers would like a,, oipportiinity to lookfurther in to this matter, bitt it is tile wishor the House that we should jot adjourn.With in 'v colleague, -Mr. Pi. 0. Moore, I ainopp osedl to thle Iholding of lotteries: ;1l at,it i, (Ieteriineid to hold( tliemi andi as tilmeet with tile appiioval ofi kite- greaterliauber. or the people of the State, thenwe must ,ee they arIe pro )erlv control led.Onte result Of the present Act is that in iyintdisciiiitnate lotteries with which the peopleof the State were being pestered from oneci t' or the country to the other are nowbroughit within reasonable limits,. I havento fault to f ind with thle operations of thecomisison. They have carried out the'irwvork in an excellent mnnier and iii aeeotl-aztee with tile Acet. When iii Comittee IpiohiosO to, move :11 antienineiit 1prividtigthat Ilit- auditor's report, upon the lotteriesshould lie laid on the Table of thle [louseand , ot merelyx subiitted to the Nliliisterz.With ieinird to the limiitation of thel herni. Ithink it well that thle Act should comie uipfor revision by thle House. Byv that meansani,>- genuine faults that may be roand] in itean lie ventilIated and correctecd. I supportthe 'evond rending oif the Bill, bilt I rlualif ,vthat su'pport by sayinw that thll ternm AhouldeN l"v iin 1934.

HON. L. B. BOLTON (Metropolitan)[8.51'.: It is in) i ntentIion to vote for tilesecond read inhg of thle Bill. I iiike soine ofthe prviu menmbers, I propose to vote fiorClause 4. 1 cons~ider the good that has beendone and tilie assistaonce that hai beeni ren-di-red to vaious charities and hospitals,w;Ara~rimt the continuance Vt thle conirol oflotteries unt il 1936. 1 .ini total] yv op posedto thle i ueinploviciit (-]luse and I shall voteag~ainsit it. I shall also vote against Minis-terial control, as I consider the excellent way

in which tile allotmnuts hauve been nmade bylie pretuit (oiiitiissoui does tot warrant theMfinit-riaI interferenee 1iu&'gestei bc thleBillI.

HOW. J. CORNELL (south) [S.52] !Idid not intend to speak on thle questionof enlarging the Bill to give relief to un-emplovimerit and to provide for Ministerialcontrol. When the previous Bill was be.lire the Rouse, I then expressed myselfas opposed to those two provisions. 1 risemnerely to speak on the point raised by Mr.Bolton as to the duration of the Bill. Theproposal is to continue the Hill for threeyears. Thlat cannot be termed temporarylegislation. Temporary legislation is usu-ally for one year. If there is justificationfor exceeding that period, then no limitshould be fixed at all. The measure is per-manent. The position then is that the0overnment of the day may bring downa Bill to repeal it, or any private membermay do so. To say that three years istemporary legislation is at variance withthle Standing- Orders. The position appearsto me to be somewhat inconsistent. I asklion. members to throw their minds backto last session when the Bill was submittedthat -[ decided to oppose. After monthsof acrimonious debate, it was agreed tobring- down the Lotteries Bill, and at thetail end of it the 'Minister in charge of theBill fell to the Leader of the Opposition.After w'inning all the way through, heag-reed to the suggestion of the Leader ofthe Opposition to limit the Bill to 12months. I think Mr. Scaddan deservedhis defeat for that alone. Now 1 under-stand the position is that the Premierthinks a year is not long enough, that theterm ought to be three years. Last year,onl the eve of the election, lie thought ayear %%as long, enough.

lion. C. F. Baxter: lie has changed hisseat since then.

lon. J. CORNELL: That is so. If weare to fix the term for longer than 12months. we should make the measure ahierauaient one. I would not be averse toits being made permanent, but 1 am averseto the period being fixed for three years.

THE HONORARY MINISTER (Hon.W. 11. Kitson-West-in reply) [8.54] : 1think the arguments advanced have beenworn just about threadbare, but I feel calledupon to reply at least to one or two state-

[CO'UNCITg

meats that have been made. First, I 'willdeal with the clause relating to uDnmploy-ment. I feel impelled to say that, judgingby some of the remarks made by members,they must have a very poor conception in-deed of how bad the position is with manythousands of our unemployed to-day. Mr,Baxter seems to doubt the statement madeby the Minister for Employment, but I mayinform him that, so far as I know, Mr.Kenneally's figures are correct. There arcto-clay less than 3,000 families onl susten-ance. That, however, does not get awayfrom the fact that there are many peo-PIe who are ill want, nkot necessarilyof food, but of other things almost asessential. May I draw the attention ofmembers to this fact!9 The clause whichappears in the Bill would not be there hadit not heen that the auditor drew the comn-mission 's attention to the fact -that theyhad allocated certain money for the pur-chase of blankets for thle unemployed lastyear, and that, in the auditor's opinion,did not come within the interpretation ofthe term "charitable.'' It wvas at the re'Lquest of the Lotteries Commission that theclause was included in the Bill. Somemembers may have forgotten that onl thleprevious Bill I gave particulars of the allo-cation of money made by the commissionup to that date; and it may be well if 1remind members that a sum of not lessthan £000O was provided by the commissionfor the purchase of blankets for the un-employed last winter. I can assure theHouse that that £900 did not go half as faras we would have liked it to go in orderto relieve people who in mnany easeshad no bed covering at all.

Ron. J. Cornell: But the point is thatthe Commission in their goodness of heartwent beyond their authority.

The HONORAR1Y XMISTER: I do notadmit that. Owing to the fact that theAuditor-General considered that actions ofthat kind did niot fall within the scope ofcharitable p~urposes, it was considered advis-able, upon the request of the Commission,so to amend the Act that the Commissiouerswould be empowered to mnake such alloca-tions as they thought fit. There were twoor three other donations towards differentbodies of unemployed. For instance, theUnemployed Single Girls Sewing Centrewas granted a sum of £C400 during the year.Was not that a deserving object?9 Would it

niot rightly come within the term "1chari-table purposc"? The South-West Unem-ployed Relief Board were granted a sum ofaloney), and there wvere two other minor alto-eatioits of the same kind. I point thesethings out in order to show bon. members,that the clause is not inserted at the Govemi-meat's request but at the Commission's. Noone canl deny that the Commission havedIone good wvork. Looking down the Lulllist of allocations made by them, one can-not omiplain of thc varied nature of ehari-table institutions assisted from the proceedsof lotteries up to date. Mr. Baster sugges-ted that it would be inadvisable to do any-thing- which would create a permanent bodyof unemployed. I ask how the allocationof certain moneys from the Lotteries Com-mission will create, or help to create, a per-muanent body of unemployed. We must re-member that in Western Australia thereare thousands of people who have been un-employed for years, except as regards re-lief work provided by the Government.

Ion. C. F. Baxter: Many more w"ill beunemployed if there is money available.

The HOINORARY MINISTER: If thehon. member takes note of statements madeby the M1inister for Employment, he willrealise that the men whom he speaks ofhave no chance whatever of being suppliedwith sustenance in the future unless they areprepared to accept the work available tothem. But the point I wish to deal withis that many thousands of those people havegot rig-ht down to bedrock in the matter ofclothing, bedding and other things of thatk-ind. Hlow can it be asserted that with 7s.per unit per week it is possible for suchfamilies to purchase anything but barenecessities, by which terin I refer to foodonly? Certainly they cannot pay rent. HowCould a married man onl 14Is. per week, be-ing without children, or a married man withone child on 21s. per week, pay rent, providefood, and at the same time secure clothingand necessary replacements in the 'way ofbedding and so forth 9 It simply cannot bedone. Many thousands of families in thisState arc in that position. I was one ofthose who were highly pleased when theLotteries Commission last year showedthemselves prepared to recognise that it wasa charitable purpose within the meaning ofthe Act to provide money for such families.I was only sorry that it was not possible for

[6 DECmmER, 1933.) 2295

the Commission to give more in that direc-tion. Now as regards the amendment pro-viding- for what is termed Ministerial con-trol. There is no difference betwveen theclause in question and the correspondingsections appearing in numerous Acts. Theclause does not take away from the Com-mission the right to make allocations, butsimply provides that after making the allo-cation they shall submit it to the Ministerfor his approval.

Hon. C. F. Baxter: It does not read thatway.

The HONORARY MINISTER: The Min-ister may query some particular allocation,b~ut I am surprised to find that members ofthis Chamber are prepared to argue thatthe Commission are likely to be infallibleand that the Minister is likely to provefallible. Apparently the board could notmake a mistake but the 'Minister might. Tomy thinking, there is no harm in the clause.Particulars of allocations made for variouscharitable purposes and of the moneys sodistributed are published from time to time.The two Houses of Parliament and the gen-eral public have, and will have, a full know-ledge of the application of the proceedsfrom lotteries. For that reason alone I failto see why strong exception should he takento the amendment. Next as to the amend-inent extending the operation of the Actfor three years. I agree with Mr. Cornellthat it would be preferable to have no limitwhatever on the operation of the Act. Iwould prefer to see it a permanent enact-mnent. However, wh len the Pri ncipal mneas-urc was before Parlmi jeat last year, ['arl ia-inent in its wvisdomn said, "We do not knowhow this is going to pan out; we will giveit at trial for 12 months." It must he admitted-almost every member who has spoken onthe measure has, admnitted-that tine opera-tions of the Lotteries Commission have beenhighly successful, more successful thin themost optimistic ventured to suggest lastyear. On that account alone I should sayit is desirable, instead of limiting the Actto another Year, to agree to its operatingfor another three years. That would ensurea time limit;: anad if wvithin that period ally -thing, should occur to make it desirable torepeal or materially amend the measure,there would be opp~ortunity for review. Isee no valid reason why the time of bothHouses of Parliament should be spent every

year in considering a measure of this kind,possilbly involving a repetition of the arg-u-mnents which have already been used here andin another place. In this Chamber therewvillI always hei some members opposed toleiitiomi of thie kind.

Hon. it. S. Moore: I for one.

The HONORARY MiNISTER. 1 admirethme lion, muember for his consistencyv. Onjprhi de, the hon. member objectst t0 alsy-thing, in the natuhre of lotteries. Hle has mnorethan i once been outspoken on that aspect, andI admire him for sticking to his g uns. Hise-il icsis at all times is at least reasonable,wivhnil is more than can be said about thecriticism of snine ,nemibers. I do not knowvthat elaboration is needed from me as tothe date to whliich tine Adt should lhe allowedto operate; but, in view of all the eircurn-stances, I suggest that the House agree tothe date appearing in the Bill. Lastly thereis the point raised by MrIt. Harris, who11 de-nianded fromt mc an assurance as to whatthe Government wvould do if this Chamberpassedi tine Bill. MyNl reply is simply that ICall[ give himZ no assurance whatever. It isa, matter for the Government to decide. Theyhave riot Yet decided it. When they do de-cide, the Hlouse will he duly A noiflied.

Question put amid passed.

Bill read at second time.

In Commnittee.

H-on. 5. Cornell in the Chair; tme lion-o ra ry 2lvin ister in charge of the Bill.

Clause 1-Short Title:

]Hon. E. 1-I. HAhIIRIS: Unfortunately' Ihave not been able to place my amndmentson the Notice Paper, but I have copies ofthem available. The first amendment I wishto move is the insertion after the word"Amendment," in line 2, of the words "andContinuance." Later I shall move the de-letion of Clauses 2 and 3 and the insertionof other provisions in lieu.

Th'ie CIIAIR3IAN: Mlr. Harris amnticipatesthat the Bill will eventually become a purelycontinuance Hill. That would mean the de-letion of Clauses 2, 3, and 5, and the amend-went of Clause 4. Thereafter the Hilt wouldhave to be so moulded as to become a purely'continuance measure. 'Mr. Seddon, how-ever, has on the Notice Paper an amend-ment which, if agreed to, wvill manke the Bill

22q6 [COUNCIL.]

an ailnidillg measure its ,vcll a aI conttinu- result to the lack of nutrition available forance measure. Therefore .1 sugg~est that Mr.Hari-is should not at this stage pursue thecourse he has in vie'v. If Air. Seddon'samendment is not agreed] to, Mr. Ifarri, eanmove as lie has indicated.

lion. E.H. HARRIS: fin view of yourremarks, Mr. Chairman, I. ask leave towithdraw my amendment.

The CHAIRMAN: We will take it thatthe amnedment has not been moved.

Clause put Iandi passed.

Clause 2-Amendment of defintiion:

H-on. E.1 H. HTARRIS: I askc the Commit-tee to strike out the clause. After sevenor eight members have expressed theiropinion in conformity with my request,and having heard the Honorary Minister'sreply, I do not think it necessary to stressthe fact that members do not think it deo-sirable to extend the scope of the Act inthe direction suggested.

Hon,. E. 11. GR3AY! T do not s11 posI ;ill%

remarks of mine will alter the opinionshield by members, but I desire to reply tosome of the wild statements that have beenmade.

Hon. E. H1. Harris: Did the HonoraryMinister reply ineffeetively?

I-Ion. E. HT. GRAY: I endorse the Hon-orary Minister's statements, but there areother matters tha~t may be stressed. When'Mr. Harris endeavours to make out thatpoliticians seek to use the unemploymentproblem to further their political interests,lie goes beyond the hounds even of ali-surdit v. Anyone who knows anything aboutthe Work of unemployment relief Commit-tees, knows that politicians who participate,rather than gain any political advantage,are more likely to lose their seats. No man,hie lie Nationalist or- Labourite. who hasparticipated in the wvork has escapedabuse from people lie set out to assist.The trouble is too serious to jokeabout. Mr. Holmes made a song about re-lieving sickness and so on. but does he notknow that the modern wvay is to preventsick-ness occurring rather than wait to carea person after he has become ill? T IfMr.Holmnes takes the departmental figures. hewill note that instead of the infantile death-rate being lowvered because of the policythalt has been adopted in the pact. it hasrisen. There has been no epidemic to ac-count for it, and the doctors attribute that

expectant mothers and children. The re-marks of some members show that theyhave no knowledge of the position. Noexisting charitable institution in the Starecould hav'e dealt with unemployment dis-tress. I was present at a meeting lastnight when delegates from all parts of theMetropolitan area held the montlyl' meet-ing, of the Metropolitan Relief Com,,,litee~Association. Delegates were ind ignant attile views expressed by, a member ofthis House. Al thoughl unintentional,those -emarks were a reflection upon abod ' of people who have been endeavour-ing- to relieve distress during the last threeen i-s. 'rhe position is worse now thanbefore, and it is more difficult than everto raise funds. That can be understoodwvhen men have now to pay Dd. in taxa-tion-

lHon. J1. J. Holmes: And 2s. 6id. unionfees.

Hon. E. H. GR AY: It is essential that thleclause he agreed to in order to enable theLotteries %Commnission to assist in the re-lief of unemployment.

Thbe CHA1lkN A: Ordler'! The boil.member should confine his remarks to theclause.

lion. E. IT. GRAY: I desire to emphasisethe indig-nation of the delegates last nig ht.In Fremantle, with the exception of theParliamentary representatives, the majorityof the executive and the members of thecrelief committee comprise prominent busi-ness people, who always take a prominentpart iii opposing Labour politicians.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! That is nota charitable purpose!

H-on. C. P. Baxter: It mayv be.Hor. R. H. GRAY: Those people do not

bother about politics when they are asso-diated in the work of relieving distress.Is it too late for me to appeal to membersto include the clause in the Bills

Hon. Sir CHARLES NATHAN: I havesome sympathy with the remarks of Mr.(h-nv. i cannot follow him, although I wishT could. I1 am afraid that Mr. Crray inparticular has lost sight of the provisionsof the original Act. Under Section 2,''Charitable purpose'' includes any ineor--pointe 1 body that distributes relief tothe sick, infirm. or indigent provided thatthie 'Minister is satisfied that the activitiesof such a bodly extend hnlistanitiallythroughout the Rtate.

[G IJECEMUER, 3z.20

The Honorary MNinister: The trouble istile inclusion of die word -incorporated."

Hon. Sir CHARLES NATHAIN: It alsoincludes anyv body, whose activities are sub-stantially S tate-wide, distributing voluntary'aid or miedical or nursing advice to expect-alit mthrhers, nursing mothers, or eiild renunder 169 years of age. Then again, subl-jeet to limitations imposed by Seption JU). aGelm ritable pa rpose" includes any iibje-twhich inl thle oinion ot tile 31 buister mlarvbe classed as charitable. Thie objection mnar:be taken that Section 19 limits thle disli i-bUnion Of lUon1ey to ob~eetS und1](r 114 heeld-in- of ctharitable purlposes," to £259. Itway be considered desirable to increase thatamount, but, as the Act stands, the coninlis-SWou have p)ower to provide at lealst at limuitedsumi of woney for- the purposes Air. Grayhasi in view. I atgree that the Act shouldnot bet taken advantage of to provide relieffor the unemployed generally. It is the dutyof the Government to provide the necessarymonev to citable work and relief to be foundfor the ILwinploved. I will go with 31r.(+ray as far as hle likes in attenipt'irg (oraise noney' for the purposes he hazs in inid.

Hon. C. R. Baxter: Every nmember of thleHouse is of a sinmil-ar Opiniion.

Hon. Sir C11ARLES -NATlIAN : That isso, lint I do not think anl attempt to solvethe unemployment problem should he tackedoil to the Bill,

The HONORARY 'MINISTER : I do notdesire to flog thle subject. It is not intendedthat thle clause will solve the u nemiploymnetproblem. The commission found it desir-able last winter to spend up~wardls of £C1,700for the assistance of the unemployed. Thataction was challenged by the auditoras going, beyond the scopje of charitablepuripoCs contemplated in the Act. Parlia-nient should put the matter right. A limitof £250 is imposed in the sections quotedby Sir Charles Nathan.

Hon. Sir Charles Nathan: 'Make it £500.

The HONORARY MINISTER. I wouldnot ohjeet to that, but it should be raniew-bered that if we did that, we would increasethe amount available for other objects aiswell.

Hon. J1. J1. HOLMES: Had it not beenfor the remarks of Mr. Gray, I would nothave spoken. I do not think I am goingtoo far when I refer to 'Mr, Glray's eoil-meats as"o-tf.

Hon. E. H1. Gray: It marv have been "sob-atuif.' but it was true.

Hoii. J. J. HOLMES: Mr. Gray spokeabout thle Mal nutrition Of expec'taLJt mnothersand children. The Act p~rovides that theeo!imui1sion mayI spend £250 out of each lot-terIv in assistInl, expectanlt mnothers andchihdren. anid as there are twelve lotteriesallowedl eacih ' ear, that meanis that £3,00could be dev-oted to that puirpose. Yet -Mr.frbay conies here and talks about expectantm1ohers and ma1111lnutition,. Etc supports anamienidmnilt that will take mtoney away fromthle charities amad give it to thle itinmployed.

I-ion. 0. Froser : That Ls just what it willtint dol.

Hon. J. J. 110L MES : It will. Moneyis to Ile taken from the channels originallyintended and is to hle devoted to the relief ofthe iiiemploy'ed. Tlhnt is what the amend-mient Means. The other amendment Pro-poses that the M1inister shalt dictate in thednistribution. The original Act provides upto £3,000 per aninum for unemployment.Niorcover. thle Minister must know thatevery' pound diverted from charitable insti-tutionis to the relief of unemployment leavesso much less for the expectant mothers andthe malnutrition the hon. member spoke of.

lion. E. H. GRAY: I was not talking sobstuff at all. The section of the Act in whichthle words "expeoctant mothers" occurs refersto anybody whose activities are substantiallyState-wide dispensing voluntary aid or mnedi-cine or nursing advice. That does not referto the giving of relief, but refers to expertadvice fromn nurses, What we have to eon1-aider is the distress arising from unexuploy-nient.

Hon. W. J. Mann: It is the duty of theGovernment to attend to that.

HEon. V. flAME RSLEY: I was astoundedwhen Mr. Badter quoted the statement bythe Minister for Employment that the num-ber of unemployed persons has been reducedfromt 17,000 to 2,500. That is an excellentreason why the funds required for chari-table purposes should not be diverted tothe relief of unemployment; especiallywhen we remember that only a little whileago we passed the Financial Emergency TaxsBill to provide funds for the relief of theulnemiployed. In view of that, it seems ridi-culous to ask for further funds out of themoneys returned fromn the lotteries, whichare intendedl for the sick and needy. It

220 7

2298 [COUNCIL.]

would be a great mistake to stwuup those inreceipt of assistance from the Governmentas being the objects of charity. It wouldcreate a most unfortunate position. Iunderstand the Government have in hand apolicy of providing work, for the unem-ployed. As I say, we passed the FinancialEmergency Tax Bill, under which everybodyhas to contribute to a large fund whichshould he sufficient to provide all1 the workrequired by the unemployed. It would bedoing the unemployed a disservice to havetheir fund classed as a charitable fund. Itis very pleasing to hear that the numberof unemployed has been so greatly reduced.Moreover, I know of many farmers who arevainly looking for hands to take off theircr.ops.

Hon. G. FRASER: Quite a number ofmnembers have referred to my second readingspeech as sob) stuff, and one member saidit was misleading sob stuff.

Hon. E, H. Harris;- Are you going toPgive us a gramophone record of it all againg.

Ron. G-. FRASER: No. It is a pity Iam not permitted to do so, because a fewiuore speeches on those lines might convincethe honi. member that there is somiething inlwhat members on this side are saying. Iami satisfed that mnembers who accuse us ofgiving mnisleaing Sob stuff do not under-staind the unemployment position, or, alter-natively, their provinces contain no povertyat all. Mfembers from my province knowonly too well the poverty that exists there,for every, day in the week we see it forourselves.

Hon. E. HT. r-. Hall: I thought the Gov-erniiient had arrangaed to get money to findwvork for everybody.

Hon. Gu. FRASER: But what are the un-unemployed and their dependants to dountil the work is provided? It is impossibleto absorb Al the unemployed in a fewweeks.

lion. C. F. Baxster: But the lotteries funidwas niever iintendced for that p~urpose.

Hon. 0. FRASER: It was intended forcharity, and I know 110 more charitableaction than the relief of person., in distress.

T-ion. C. F. Baxter: Your Minister saLysthe number of unemployed has been reducedfrom 17,000 to 2,500.

lIon. G. FRASER: And those 2,500 arestill without work and reqniring relief. Mr.Holmes only showed his want of knowledge

when hio referred to something in the Actincluding expectant mothers. To a greatextent the expectant mothers arc assistedby the various relief committees, but manyof those relief committees have gone out ofexistence for want of funds. Mr. Moorewill vote against the clause because of hisviews on gambling, but he did not suggestanything to take the place of the clause,Uinder which cases of distress can be relieved.Gambling is the only means by which moneycan be raised for charitable purposes. Thathas been proved in the other States.

The CHFAIRMAN: -What has that to dowith the inclusion of unemployed relief inthe definition of "charitable purposes"p?

Hon. G. FRASER: OneC of the reasons Iwasi advancing was that relief committeeshave gone out of existence because gamblingis now controlled by the Lotteries Cormmis-sion. Unless the commission are empoweredto grant larger sums then £C250 from eachlottery, should they so desire, many lpeoplecannot obtain needed relief. I hope mem-bers will grant this extension. The com-mission would be under no compulsion to in-crease the amounts that may now be madeavailable and unemployment relief com-mnittees would merely be placed on the samefooting as other ch~aritable institutions.

Hon. J. M. MLACFARLANE,: The remarksof the Honorary Minister and Mr. Grayscented to indicate that opponents of theamendment were uinsympathetic to the un-employed.

Hon. G-. Fraser: Not at all.Hon. LT. MN. MACFARLANE: Charitable

institutions are with us permnanently, hut thenumber of unemnployed has beeni consider-ably reduced. I desire that the proceeds oflotteries, whiich is fool's money, be retainedfor charitable purposes.

The CHAIRMAN: I hope the hon. meni-ber is of opinion that members of the Coun-cil do not subscribe to the consultations.

Hon. 3. M. M1ACFARLANE: I am notsuggesting that they do. It is the duty ofthe Government to deal with the unemployeddifficulty direct and not to bracket it withcharitable institutions.

Hon. J1. J. HOLMIES: I wish to correctMKr. Fraser and Mr. Gray. Twelve months-ago Mr. Fraser, who is so anxious about therelief of unemployment, moved that the Billbe read a ,second time that dlay six months,which amendment if carried, -would havekilled the Bill. Now hie tells us that there

2298

[6DEE~mER 93.]F 2299

were .17,000 unemployed and the Ministersays the number has been reduceed to 2,500.Yet M1r. Fraser wants a dip in the charitybag to lproiride relief for the unemployed. Inreply to Mr. Gray, I wish to point out that15 lotteries are authorised and £E250 may begranted front each lottery.

Hon. G. Fraser: The commission are ran-Dling only 12.

Hon. J. J1. HOLMES: I desire that themioney lbe retained for the charitable pur-poses stipulated in the Act, whereas Mr.G-ray wishes to get it for the unemployed.

Bon. 0. FRASER: 11r. Holmes knowswhy I moved the amendment last year.

Bon. .1. J. Holmes: I knewr that a differ-ent party were in power last Year.

Hon. C-. FRASER:. I objected because theBill was introduced on the last day of thesession and because its passing would pr~e-vent unemployed relief organisations frontconducting sweeps.

Clause put and at division taken with thefollowing reslt-

AyesNoes

Majority against

617

11

AYEHS.Hon. .1. M. Drew Hon. W. 14. KitsonHon. G. Fraser HiOn. T. MAoore

Hn. E. H. H. Hanl (Teller.)

flon. C. F. Baxter Hon. .1. Nicholsonlion. , B, Blolton I-Ion. IH. V. PiesgeHon. V. Hameretey lion. E, RoseHon. R. H. Harris Hon, H, SeddonHon, J. M. Macfarlane Hon. A. ThomsonHOn. W. .i. Mann Hon, 0. H4. WittenoomnMn, G. W. Miles Mon. H. 3. YellnndlHon. R. 0. Moore Hon. S. J. HolmesHon. Sir C. Nathan (Teller.)

Clause thus negatived.

Clause 3-Distribution of mnoneys for~charitable purposes being mnade with the ap-proval of the M1inister:

Hon. E, H. HARRIS: I urge membersi tovote out this clause also by a similar major-ity. It provides that before any distribu-tion is mnade the M1inister Shall give his ap-proval, notwithstanding that his ideas maybe contrary to the unanimous wishes of thecommission. Such power should not beranted to any 'Minister.

The HONORARY MlNISTER: r mere[lywish to state that there is no ulterior motivebehind this proposal. I leave it to the good

judgment of members to say whether theMinister should be given that authority.

Clause put and a division taken with thefollowving, result:-

Ayes .. 5 . .

Noes is . . .. 1

Mfajority against .

lion. J. U. DreHon. 0. 11rasero1lion. E. Ii. G ray

lion. C. F. BaxterHion. L. B. BoltonHon. E. ff. H. Halllion. V, HamersieyHen, E. H. HarrisHOn. JT. J. HolmeslHon. S. M. MacfarlaneHon. W.J 3. annHon. G. W. Miles

.. 13

AYES.IHon. W. H. KitsonHon. T. Moore(Tle.

S.lion. R. G. Moorelion. Sir C. NathanTion. F. NicholsonlioIn. 1-. V, PicsscHion. E, RosteHon. M. SeddenHon. A. ThomsonHion. H. J1. TellandHon. 0. H. Wittenoon'

(.Teller.)

Clause thus negatived.

Clause 4-Continuance of Act for a fur-ther period of three years: Amendmentof Section 21 of the principal Act:

Hon. E. UI. HARRIS: I move-

That in line 3 the word J'SiX'' be %truckout, and ''four" inserted in lieu.

Amendment put, and ai division takeonwith the following result:-

AyesNoes

15S

'Majority for.,

Hon. F. H. H Hall,Heon. V. Ha rssHon. E. H. HarrisHon., J. J. HolmesRon. .7. M. IalrlnHnn. V. JMnHon,.V.. W.MieHon. R. 0. Moore

ArES.Mon. Sir C. NathanHon. S1 NICholeonHon. E. RoseHon. H. Sed donHon. A. ThononHon. C. nT. Wittenomlion, If. J. Yeliand

(Feller.)1

Noss.Mon. C. V. bate on. W. H. KitsonHon. L. R. Bolto mn. T. Mn r..HOn. J. M. Drwlion. 14. V. PierseHon. E. H. Gryon. G. Fraser

(Teller.)

Amendment thus passed: the clause.. nA.amended, agreed to.

Clause -5-agreed to.

New clause: Amendment of Section 15:

Hon. H. SEDDON: I move-

That the following be inserted to stand asClause 4- "Section fifteen of the principalAct is herebly amended by the ad dition theretoof a paragraph, as follows:- '(f) A copy ofevery account furnished by the Commission

[6 DEMVIDER, 1933.]

Nos

2(111[COUNCIL.]

to the Minister under paragraph (it), togetherwith a copy of the certificate of the auditorin regard thereto, shall be laid before eachHfouse oiC Parliament within thirty days afterthe receipt of such account and certificate bythe Minister, if Parlianment is in session, and,if not, then within thirty days after thecom~menceimcnt of the next session of Parlia-

The object is that the information laid be-fore the Minister shiall be made availableto the public.

The HONORARY MNINISTER: I cannotaccept the amendment, for which I see novalid rea sonx. It simply means iiIinceessflrv

duplication of work. Full publicity' is al-ready given to the results of the variouslotteries; and in another place thre 'Min-ister administering the Act undertook tofurnish Parlianient at least once a yearwith full informiation as to distribution ofFunds, allocations made. aind generally theoperations of the commission.

Hon. J. J. Holmes: That is this Minis-ter's promrise. WVhat will the next Mlinis-ltr say?

The HONXORARY M.:IhSTEB : If anlhon. memiber desires in formation, he needonly ask a question here. The new clausewould involve additional cost. Some in-formation desired by mnembers cannot pos-sibly be laid on the Table, A~re all theaccounts of the commissio to 1,e din p1 i -cated for production lic 'ile ne%%clause goes too far.

Ion. H. Seddon: Tt only rinairs an addi-tional carbon copy.

New clause put and passed.

New Clause:

I-on. Sir CHARLES NATIIAX: [lurin-zthe discussion on Clause 2 the llonorary%Minister made a good point when lie statedthat thre amount at present provided bythe Goverinnent fill unnpJ)o vineit relief isentirely for sustenance and work. and thatthere is necessarily a considerable amrountof poverty and distress which is not alle-viated by' that means. The whole objectof the original Act is t o providemoney for charitable lnrl)oseS. The mainconsideration wvhich-brlnought about therejection of the proposal to include irnein-ployed relief within the scope of the pin-cipal Act w~as thalt the relief of thre anent-played should be a purely State function.However, Section 19 of the principal Actlimits the amount of an allocation for an,charitable purpose to £250. T consider that

rho Conimission should have it in their oil-fettered discretion to make grants up to1£50. Aeordinlx I muov

That tire following new clause be added tothe Bill:-' 'Section 19 of tire principal Actis hereby anrerded by deleting the words'vo lInrrm-ed arid fifty in the first line

thereof, and substi tutin tire words 'fivehundred'.''

Under the new clause the commissionwould lie emplowvered to provide relief, totile extent of £.500 for anry charitable pur-pose, but not for the relief of uneinployed.

The HONORARY 'MINISTER: In viewvof what hans been, said, tile Commirittee willnaturally expect tile to agr-ee to the proposednew clause, arid I do so willingly..

Hou. E. H. B-ARI S : 1 will rot1 allow,thie tnew- clause to go unopposed. Aftarwhat has been said and done so far, and inview of the successful operations of thle Act,we would be wvell advised to leave it as it is.1. wilt niot agree to take awvay'A from the vani-ous charitable institutions, money that, it issuggested, 'nay be devoted to the unemi-ployed.

Hon. J. J. HOLMNES: I shiall not sup-port tile new clause, in v-iewv of the fact thatwve have already agreed to special taxationto enable money to be ra ised for the reliefof unemployment.

Thie ionorarv M-inister: You know thatthat tax wits not for the purposes coveredby the irew v lause.

Hon. J. J. HOLMIES: We were told Othathle Government required mloney' to enablethem to provide wvork for thre unempillhoyedand1 to relieve their position. A special grantwas r-eceiv-ed from tire Comamonwvealth Gov-ernmnent; a special loan was r-aised to relievethe Aueni ploved. We passed a hrospitalI taxthat we thought would be used to assist theindig-ent sick bilt it drifted into nrotirerchannel and ultiniately- the unemployed gotthre benefit. Nowv Iirne3- that formerl enitto charities and the indigeit sick is to biefilched and given to the unemployed who,wc are told, are diminishing at the rate ofthousands per monrth. Although the Gov-err'nuent have been in power tot- six inoitirsonly, the un memrployed hav-e dropped fromt17,000 to 2,500. The unemployed are dis-appeariing, and vet it is now suggested that£600 per lottery is to he set aside for theirrelicf! It will not be donre with my vote.

Hon. E. Hf. H. HALL: References to therelict of thre unmployed (10 not 1)ut thre posi-

2300

[6 1JncEmtne, 1933.1 2301

tion correctly. Rather is thle iuneaea11,cdiioevdesi re(] for rue relief of distress occasionedIby liiemlplo ' ment. Although I Irequentlirdiffer from Mr. Gray' and Mr. Fraser, Ithink thor a re sincere in their statenien ts re-gzirding, tile dist res preva lent in their pro-vinc. It wordld be dililit for the Govern-men t to provide funds to meet the requ'ire-ments thiey, indicated. We hanve confidencein the commnission, a nd tilie matter shouldhe left in their hands. I support the newclause.

Hon. G4. W. MI1LES: The Honorarv Mtin-ister sa iI that thne audi tos had taken ext-op-tion to money spent 1)y the commissionin farni shing relief for tile litlellpioved asheing, outside the scope of "cell ita ble purt-poses' covered Iby the Bill. [nt consequence,tile conlinissi on requested the Governmentto include aclause fin the Bill to enable thecommission to set aside flid us for the pitr-pose indica ted. Thle House having disagreedto that clause, I take it that we have decidedthat fluitds shall not be provided by the coml-mission for, the relief of the unlemployed.

Hont. E.H1. Grayv: Von are getting harderand harder.

Hll. G. W. MI1LES: That is what [ fin-terpret thle decision of thle ('o11nn1ittee tomean. and I want tile Comiittee to stick toit. 1 take it tha t tile iiew i-la use means tiatthle comnmission will he able to p rovide up to£500 for any' chanit able purpose covered lbvthe remairls of' Sir- Charles Nathan.

Roin. .1. N icholsoin: But that onl lvy apliessubject to plaigraph (i) of Section 2.

lion. C. Wl. MILES: it v-jew of the Coal-inittee's previous decision, I do not think thnenie" clautse is necessary.

The HONORARY M-IN\ISTER: I takestrong exception to the remarik made byv onehoil. miembier wholi said hie would iiot ag-reeto the Government ]ich n one - from theindigent sick. There has never been anysuch intention.

Hon. J. J1. Holmes: .I did not use the word"Governmien t"' in that connection at all.

The HONORARY MINT'ISTER: Thai isa strong denial. Is Mr. Holnies prepared towithdraw his remark?

Hon. J. J. Holmes: If you sayv I made useof the word "Government" in connectionwith the flching of money from the indigentsick, I will withdraw it.

The HONORARY IMINISTER. I thinkyou wrill find that von did say so. I takestrong exception to the statement that

alone x is to be file hel from thle i ndi-genut si-k. That has never been my fin-tent ion nor, that of any of taiv colleagues.If the hall. member had any knowvledge ofthe operations of the Lotteries Coinmis-iout, hie woulId know that thiat kind of thing

could not p)ossibly happen.lion. J. J. IHolmes: This amendment was

udesigned to get over it.The HONORARY 'MINIS'rER: But it

was not designed to filch anything fromthe indigent sick. That statement was ona par with other remarks ire have had.The lion. mnember is getting away with tooamany of theni, and I take exception to it.

The CHAIRMAN: The proper tinme totake exception to any remarks is whenthey are uiade.

The H-ON-sORARY 'MINISTER: As towhyv this amendment is desired, and howit came here-I mean the one that wasoriginally in the Bill and onl account oflie rejection of which Sir Charles Nathanmoved his arnenduent-the auditor ques-tioned whether the money allocated hr

hle Lotteries Comiission, amrountinlg tomare than £250 in auuv one sweep, couldrig~htly hle claimed to be tor ai chaitalpurpose. There was £1.200) allocated to theMletropolitanl Council of Unemldoyed Re0-Ii of Committees, whose ".1 ik is eonflined,almost solely, to the provision of tin-gother than, food. Then there wa.s £00 forthe provision of blankets.

Hon. G. W. Miles: But the Governmentcould find the necessary money from someother source.

The HONORARY MINISTER: The Goy-ernitient could not find it Then there was£400 for the unemployed single girls' sew-ing circ, and £500 for the unemployed inthe South-West. Although the Govern-ment have found employment for nmanythousands of men, and although it is true,as Mr. Holmes said, that money is beingprovided from various sources for the pro-vision of work, the great majority of thosewho have been afforded work are not be-ing emplo 'yed the whole year round. Aman may be working for a month, afterwvhichi he has to turn back to sustenanceFor a period. In those circumstances woulda man be in a position to find necessitiesother than, food for his family! I can,ssure members there is more poverty inthe community to-day than ever before inthe history of the State. If members wouldgt a little closer to this problem, they

2302 [COUNCIL.]

would quickly change their attitude. Trhe The CHAIRM~AN: I do not knowv whatamendment moved by Sir Charles Nathan.I take it, means that the Commission mnnif they think fit, allocate any sum tip to£500 for the relief of distress a~rising fromunemployment.

Hon. Sir Charles Nathan: For the reliefof the charities enumerated in the parentAct.

The HONORARY vHNISTE: i am,taking the broad view. If I had not be-lieved there "'as something worth while in1striving for these amendments we haveput up, I would have ceased my effortssome time ago. However, I hope the Com-mnittee will agree to the amendment movedby Sir Charles Nathan.

lion. J. Ili. MACFARLANE :I am satis-fled that the mover of the amendment in.tends merely to extend the benfits that maybe given to any of the charitable purposesenumerated in the Act.

The CHAIR*MAN: No, only to one whichin the opinion of the Minister can beclassed as chaittable.

H-on. ... M4. MACFARLAI'> Twielveconsultations are to be held each year, andapproximately 50 per cent, of the returnsare distributed by the commission for chiar-itable purposes. The money is far frombeing adequate for those institutions. Thebalance that the commission holds fromtime to time is a reserve to meet any slumpin the contributions to a consultation andtis quite a sejparate thing from the fundsfor distribution. I prefer not to alter theAct in any way, and so I cannot supportthe amendment.

H~on. GI. W. MILES: Since the Committeehas deleted the clause authorising the hand-ing over o! this money for the relief ofdistress arising from unemployment, Idoubt whether the commission can con-tinue to distribute that mioney. I wishto emphasise that the Honorary' Am-ister and his supporters hold no brieffor the unemployed. Other members havejust as much sympathy for the distressedas has anyv member of the Labour Party.It is the duty of the Government to relievethe unemployed by other means, and not usemoney designied for charitable purposes. Inview of the Committee's decision, will thecommission have power to grant money forunemployment relief in future, seeing thattheir action has been questioned by theauditor7

Hon. G1. Fraser: Yes, up to £250.

the coniission can or might do; all I am con-cerned about is the question before theChair, whether the commnission should beable to grant £500 instead of £E250.

Hon. J. J. HOLMES: Subject to thelimitation of £250, anmy object whbich in theopinion of the -Minister may fairly be classedas eharitable igh.t participate in the pro.ceeds of lotteries. That sum, in my opinion,is cJuite sufficient.

lHon. J. 'NICHOLSON: The Crown Lawauthorities should lie consulted regairding theproposed liew clause. Even if it wereaep1 ted, words should be added to showthat amounts ight be paid from time totine. Otherwise it might be held that onepaymient of £E250 would be nll that the corn-mnission could grant.

Hon. A. Thoinson: The Act says "froman;- lottery."

The CHIAIRMAN: Tine only question atissue is that of the amount.

lHon. J. NICHOLSON: If the moneywere intended solely for unemployment xe-lief, I should saty £250 was sufficient, butto meet cases of distress and indigence re-lieved by unincorporated bodies, it would befair to increase the amount to £500.

The CHAIRM-AN: The question iswhether the amount of £2-50 should bea in-creased to £500 for any object which theMinister considers might fairly he classed ascharitable.

Hon. H. SED DON: I do not approve ofthe proceeds of lotteries being applied topurposes other than those set out in theAct.

New clause put, iand a division called for.

The CHAIRMINAN: Before tellers areappointed, I give my vote with the ayes. Mfyreasons for doing so are that, as the lawstands, the commnissioa are not otherwiselimited as to the amount they may allot toany charitable purpose. As regards %charitable purpose so classified by the Min-ister, the commission are limited to granting£250. 1 consider that the margin should beextended to £500.

Division resulted as follows:--.AyesNoes

Majority ag-ainst

*14

.5

[6 DECEMBE, 1933.] 20

AYES.lion. J. Cornell Hon. W. H. KitsonHen-J. M. Drew Ho.1 T. MooreHon3. 0. Fraser Ho. Sir 0. NathanaRon. E. H. Gra Hon. J. NicholsonMon. E. f. H. Hal (Teller.)

NOES,lion. C. F. Baxter Ron. 0. NY. milesHon, L, B. Bolton Hon. R. 0. Mloor.Hon. V. Ha~meruley Hon. H, V. PieaseHOG. E. H. Harris linn. If SaddonHan. J. J7. Holmes Hon. A. ThomsonHion. S. M, Ilactarnone Hon. C. H. WittenoomHon. W. J. Mann HonD. FE. Rose

(Teller,)

New clause thus negatived.

-New Clause:-

Hlon. J, 3. HOLMES: I mioe-

That the following be inserted to stand asClause 3: ''Section 3, paragraph (e), of theprincipal Act is amended by deleting thewords 'one rear' in the seccond line and sub-stituting the words 'tintil the '1st December,1934'.''

This Chamber lpaseed an Act providing thatone of its Members should remain onl thleLotteries Commission until 1934 Without in-curring any responsibility under the Coni-stitaution Act. We have limited the opera-tion of the Act anti! December, 1934. Thereis no necessit 'y for me to stress the goodwork done by the commission. Every menF-her who has spoken on the Bill has compli-mierted the commission oin their excellentwork, and we want that work to be eon-tinued.

The HONORARY MINISTER: I cannotaccept tile amendment. The matter is onefor the Government, not this House, to de-cide. This House should not wusurp thefunctions of tile Government.

H~on. J. J. HOLMIES: I take exceptionto the Honorary Minister's remark. Surelythe Hfouse has the right to say that an Actshall continue tip to a certain date, We arenot usurping the functions of thle Govern-wenit by doing that.

R-on. R. 0..MOORE: I1 Oppose the amend-ment, because I eM Opposed] to an 'y memberof Parliament being appointed on the com-mission.

Hion. E. H. H. HALL: I also oppose theAmendment onl the round stated by Mr. R.G. Mtoore.

Honl. C. W. M1ILES:- I support the amrend-mnent. I do not Agree that the House is dic-tating to thle Government. The amendmentis anl indictation to tile Government that theI-ous e is Well satisfied with the eomlmision

f785]

a4 constituted, and it is a recommendationto the Government that they should continuethe appointment utntil the Act expires in1034. It would reflect credit on the Govern-ment if they followed the suggestion miade,by thle House.

The CHAIRMA'N: The point involved inthis amiendmient goes considerably heyondStanding Order 101, which provides-

Any Amendment may be made to any partof the Bill provided the samie be relevant tothe subject matter of the Bill, and be other-wise iii conformnity With the Standing Orders.

There is no doubt the subject matter ofthis Bill is machinery. Clause 2 alters thiedefinition of *''charitable pu rposei.'" Clause3 provides that before any money is dis-tributed hr' the commission, the approvalof thle Minister in writing Must be obtained.Clause 4 limits the duration of the Bill,and Clause 5 is the usual citation clause.No one could construe the commission asmachinery. The commission are the instru-ment appointed by Parliament to adminis-ter the Act. The statute says that the com-mission shall be a body corporate, and soforth, and shall hold office for one year.That is all done by the Minister. The newclause proposes to take the appointmentout of the Minister's hands and to con-tinue the commissioners for another year.If lion. members desire to pursue the point,they call do so by passing the newv clause.If I were to rule it out and the Committeewere of opinion that it should go in, theywould rule me out and rule the clause in.I leave the matter entirely in the handsof the Committee.

Hon. J. J. HOL-MES: You have quotedvarious clauses, M1r. Chairman, whichhare no bearing on the new clause. I claimthat if thle Chamber passes a Bill statingthat the appointment shall be for one year,the Chamber can pass another Bill provid-ing that the appointment shall terminateonl a certain date. Standing Order 191 isperfectly clear. This is a Bill to amendthe Lotteries (Control) Act, and the newclause conforna with the Title.

New clause putt, and a division takenwith the following resut:-

AyesNoes

A tie ~0

2303

2304 [ASSEMBLY.]

Hion. G. W, NjilesHon. Sir C. NalhanH-on. E. RoseHon. A. ThomsonHion. V. Hamergley

(Teller.)

NOE&.Han. 3. Riohisonlion. i-I V. Piesselion. H. SeddonHo0n. C. Hi. WittenooinHon. E. 1H. H. Hall

(Teller.)

The CHAIRMAN: The voting beingequal, the question passes in the negative.

'New clause thus negatived.

Title-agreed to.

Bill reported with amendments.

House adjourned at 11.10 p.m.

legislative RsembIv.1Tehmr.'doq. 61hp flemhrr 19.3

Questions:- Port facilitieR, ('arriors'onLepers, transportationPleuropneumnonia, Turner ter

Bills : Purchasers Protection, reportLon, £5,046,000, 2R., Conm. report ..Farmers' Debts Adjustment Act Amendment, 2R.Permanenit Reserve (Ah1162). returnedAugrusta Allotments, returnedReserves, returned ......... ......Legal PractitIoners' Act Asneneistnn, 2R. ..Dentists Act Amendment, 2a........

Discharge of Orders ..Motion Railways, Cominnisoner's liability, to dis;-

allow regulation

PAOL280423042304230522052305232923232323P2223262326

2326

The SPEAKER took the Chair at 4.30p.m. and read prayers.

QUESTION-PORT rACILITIES,CARNARVON.

Mr. WISE asked the Minister for Mines-.1, Will he investigate the matter of the short-age of trucks at Cara-on, which causesmnuch worry and great inconvenience when-ever one or two vessels nre due in the portfor loading end unloading? 2, Will he

Hon. C. F. naxterHon. L. B. Doltonlion, E. H. HarrisHon. J. J. HolmesHon. 3. M. MacfarlatneHon, W. J. Mainn

Hon-. KH DrewHion. G. FramerHon.'E. H. GrayHon. WV. H. Kitsonlion, R, 0. Moorelion. T, Moore

y llaour to provide additioiial roil-ing, stock at that port aid to have a com-plete overhaul mnade of trueks now in usethere?! 3, Is lie aware that the acetylenelights used onl the jetty constitute a dangerto workmen and public alike, especially whenurgze quantities of fuel oil are unloadedlunler these naked lights?! 4, 'Will electricliwhlt lie installed on the Jetty at this busyport at an early date?

The MINISTER FORl MINES replied;1, It is realised that more trucks wouldassist peak periods at thre Port of Carnar-v-on, but in view of the cost involved andthe present financial position, c-onsiderationof additional rolling stack has been deferred.This matter will be taken up with the PublicWorks Department. 2, Essential work inthe overhaul of trucks is now being under-taken. 3, Yes. 4, Approval for this workhas already been given.

QUESTION-LEPERS,TRANSPORTATION.

Mr. COVERLET asked the Mlinister forHealth: 1, How many leper patients arc:waiting transportation to Darwin fromtWestern Australia ? 2, Will the vessel trans-porting lepers be in charge of a qualified.eainan and comply with the Navigation Act?3, 'Were tenders for leper transportationcalled publicly?

The MINISTER FOB HEALTH replied:I, Twenty-seven, including 20 cases foundin the Derby area within the last threemonths. 2, The vessel proposed to be used.together with its master, was nomninated tothe Public Health Department by the ChiefMedical Officer, Commonwealth Health Ser-vice, Darwin. As the vessel's base is Dar-win, it is naturally concluded that the rc-quirernents of the 'Navigation Act have beensatisfied. :3, 'No. The experience of theHealth Department has always been one ofdifficulty in securing any transport whateverat a reasonable cost.

QUESTION-PLEURO-PNEUMONIA,TURNER THEORY,

Mr COVERLET askied the M1inister forA'z-riculture: What progress has been madeby the department with its investigations5into the Turner theory as a cure for pleuro-pnenuilofia?

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